Episode 152 - Faith Driven Investing from a Jewish Perspective with Michael Eisenberg
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Many investors from other religious backgrounds are asking the same core question we are: how do my beliefs shape the way I think about my work?
While theological differences will always come up, we can still learn from their perspectives. That’s why we’ve invited Michael Eisenberg back on the show.
Michael has joined us before both on the podcast and at the conference, providing us with incredible insight about how the Hebrew Scriptures give us practical wisdom in business.
We welcome Michael back for an open conversation about how his Jewish faith influences his views of investing.
Find the episode at the link in the comments and don’t forget to rate, review, and follow the show.
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman, your host. And we have a very, very exciting episode today, I think, with a great friend of the Faith Driven Investor podcast, the Faith Driven Investor movement, our firm Sovereign's Capital. Michael Eisenberg Michael has been on the podcast before talking about his wonderful book, The Tree of Life and Prosperity. But today we're going to get to delve even deeper in what the Jewish Scriptures and Jewish philosophy say about investing in financial life. Michael is a long term venture capitalist. He co-founded and now leads Alef, a Tel Aviv based venture capital firm that invests in technology companies. He's a frequent author on many different topics, and we're going to talk about a massive writing project that he's taken on with multiple books now. I've had a chance to read one. I'm anxiously awaiting the translation into English of the others, and we'll get into that more deeply. And he's also a family man, and we can talk about that large family there, all of whom are remarkable people and has been deeply involved in community service and government since he migrated to Israel from the United States in 1993. And so we're very, very privileged to welcome Michael on the podcast. Thanks for joining us today.
MIchael Eisenberg: Thanks for having me, John. And I'm looking forward to welcome you back to Israel personally and physically so we can share a handshake and a hug.
John Coleman: Awesome. Awesome. I did get to visit Michael last year, last spring in Israel. It was my first trip to Israel, although my wife had been a couple of times and he was a really gracious host in his beautiful office there. So we were very grateful to visit. Michael You know, one of the things that impresses me most is just your remarkable capacity for intellectual exploration, for ideas, for writing. And that's been a part of your life forever. Talk to me a little bit before we get directly into the investing side. I think this will lead in. Where did you first get interested in writing and grappling with ideas through writing?
MIchael Eisenberg: I had a ninth grade English teacher whose name was Ms. [.....]. We used to call her the little lady. She was tough as nails. I mean tough as nails. About five foot one. She yelled all the time at us, but she forced us to write. We read a book, I think it was every two weeks or maybe every week. I can't remember. And I think it was Wednesdays. She would say 20 pages, write. And you start writing and you had to kind of quickly organize your thoughts. Sometimes she would just give topics and say, seven pages start writing. And I thought she was amazing. And I kind of became interested in writing, I think, through her, funny story about it I had her in both the ninth and the 10th grade, and she taught 11th grade too, but everyone wanted out of her because she would often she put you in the corner. She had this great line. She would say, Do you see what's written behind the me on the on the blackboard? You know, says, No fidgeting, No, stop fidgeting. And everyone wanted out. But in 11th grade, I wanted to go back there and I went to the principal because they put me in a different English class that I'd like to go back to Miss [....]. They go, Nobody wants to go back to Miss [.....]. So no, you can't. And they didn't let me go back. But I. I give her a lot of credit for my love of writing.
John Coleman: Well, what I love when I read your stuff and maybe it's the same for you. I write because I know so little. I feel like when I'm interested in and passionate about a topic, the best way for me to explore it is to research it well enough to write about it, because I figure if I can write about it well and teach others, that means that I've actually taken the time to understand it. And I can sense that kind of intellectual exploration in your writing to where you're really reflecting deeply on the topics that you explore. Is that something similar to the way that you approach it, and how do you pick the topics that you're going to write about Michael?
MIchael Eisenberg: I'll start with the second question first, which is how do I pick the topics I don't is what happens. So I think life happens and in my life I'm an investor, I'm a venture capitalist and a person of faith. And we read, as is the Orthodox Jewish tradition, we read the Hebrew Bible every week in synagogue, and you read one portion of the Bible, and so you run into it every week. And as you kind of run into it, you develop your own lens. And I think we need to take these things seriously and I take them seriously cause you to ask questions, particularly as a modern person. And when you ask questions as a modern person, both of the texts and of other people and you want to take it seriously, you need to figure out both how you apply it to modern times and to kind of what is the intent here, even if the situation is different than an old agrarian economy. And that's what I found myself exploring. And at the same time, I literally just finished yesterday what you call a [.....]. So in Jewish law, which persists, the way it evolves is through questions and answers. It obviously started to evolve through the Talmud and then through questions and answers. And I've run into particular questions. When Silicon Valley Bank failed, it was Sabbath in Israel. And so how do you deal with a failing bank when you're, you know, 9 thousand miles away, and it's the Sabbath under Jewish law. So I just finished yesterday the a two and a half month journey that describes exactly what you said, which is I got to figure this out. And so I spent together with my study partner and writer of my book, two and a half months deep in this topic. And we sent out the 23 page response yesterday to ten rabbis to get their feedback to see what they thought about the Jewish legal analysis of this problem of what happens when Silicon Valley Bank fails on the Sabbath. Wow.
John Coleman: Wait a minute. I almost have to ask the follow up now. Any early insights into how a faithful Jewish believer can approach that question?
MIchael Eisenberg: So in general, under Jewish law, we have a rule which says that things that endanger your life allows you to violate the Sabbath. This obviously doesn't qualify as something that endangers your life. It's very fundamental. There is a a commentator from about 300 years ago. It was called the McGuane Abraham the Shield of Abraham, who writes that in certain conditions of massive financial loss, you can violate rabbinic prohibitions of the Sabbath, but not biblical prohibitions of the Sabbath. And there's more to it than that. We took an entirely different approach because we think it's very difficult to figure out how this is a risk to your life. And also, we think the notion of a large financial loss is a very blunt tool. But we think in the digital economy, which is I think was very different here, we had a digital bank run within 48 hours. Depositors withdrew their money and sank a bank. And we think in a digital economy, things both like cyber and digital bank runs fall into an entirely different category that has been lost to the Jewish people for 2000 years. But it does appear in the Talmud because we haven't had sovereignty. And so what we suggested is that in a sovereign country, businesses and particularly digitally connected businesses are actually part of the piercing of sovereignty when they fail. And because of that, it would be permitted to violate rabbinic prohibitions on the Sabbath in order to make sure that the businesses stand up or businesses are not attacked either by digital bank runs or cyber attacks or whatever it is. That's the approach we took, you know, still under investigation and dialog. We'll see how it comes out.
John Coleman: Man, Michael, I love this. I love this. And I want to follow up about this broader reflection on the Scriptures, on the Bible that you're doing and how that integrates with economics and technology. As I understand it, like you said, you've been writing about that intersection for some time on a weekly basis. And I think one of the things that I've come to admire the most about my Jewish friends is the deep reflection you do on the Scripture portion every week and how that begins to inform your evolving faith and how much debate there is about that. You know, it's really an active intellectual life. Talk to me about this massive writing project that you've taken on, starting with the Tree of Life and Prosperity and how that intersects between those three things your faith, technology and economics.
MIchael Eisenberg: So first, you give me more credit than I'm entitled to. You described it as a massive writing project. I actually didn't sit down to do this. It's kind of happened in waves along the way. I sat down to discuss the topics with my kids at the Sabbath dinner table, and I started writing myself notes. It evolved into longer form items and then it evolved into the first book, and then I became obsessed. And I'm now four volumes into the five books of Moses. So I've done Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and numbers, and I'm already kind of done with the rough infrastructure of Deuteronomy as well in Hebrew. And I think as I was saying before, one of the benefits of being in synagogue every Sabbath and kind of, you know, coursing through the Bible every Sabbath, is that you become familiar with the text. But I find that too often there is a dichotomy between our modern situation, let's just call it and text that we consider to be eternal, but we actually don't treat them that way. They're kind of some nostalgic thing we put on the side, and I consider myself very fortunate that our own rituals put us in this context of the biblical scriptures every week. And so when I sat down to do was to look at how you apply scripture to an active, technologically advanced economy, what are the foundational principles of the text itself? Reread There was a commentary in the Middle Ages because there was Rabbi Samuel, the son of Moses, who was a grandson of the famous Jewish [....] named Rashi. Rabbi Solomon Isaac or a son of Isaac who said that there's something called the Scriptures that are reinterpreted in every time. What does that mean? If we think they're eternal, it means that they have meanings that we can then infuse with what's going on today and then try to apply them as faithfully as possible to the problems we have today. And my own view is that the Hebrew Bible and this may be controversial. My own view is that the Hebrew Bible in particular is not just a set of metaphors and. It's not just a set of precepts. It's actually a blueprint for life and society. And if you take that seriously, then one should attempt to apply it to a modern life in society. And I take that seriously. By the way, I think the founding fathers of America thought the same thing. You know, if you believe in the Declaration of Independence as a foundational document, they were talking about people created in the image of God in that way. And they kind of had a blueprint for a very tolerant America, tolerant of religious freedom. But at the same time, much of Christian society in large ways. I know that's not politically correct to say today, but I think it's what the founders had in mind. And so they attempted to apply in the separation of powers. I think the same biblical text where the Hebrew Bible had a king, a prophet and judges. Right. And you had, you know, during the time of Ezra, the scribe, who is mentioned in the Book of Ezra, which is an Old Testament book in the Scriptures. He had a council of elders, which I think is the way to think about the US Senate. And so I think they took this really, really seriously. I mean, I think we need to as well at a societal level.
John Coleman: Wow, I absolutely love that. That's really interesting. And it is interesting if you date back to the beginning, you know, in some respects, not completely, but in some respects, the American founding was the story of religious refugees generally. And there is evidence, at least in many parts of the country, and especially amongst the founders, that Jewish people were part of that They were welcomed with open arms, at least in many circles. And that is hopefully a credit to the country at that time. You know, as you think about the project that you've taken up, and maybe this helps us reflect as well in a way that Christians can help to understand the Jewish scriptures more. Talk to us about this book series that you're publishing that began with the Tree of Life and Prosperity. I think the next book title from Remembering Properly is Everyone Can Be Moses, which is being translated and then the Land of Milk, Honey and Uncertainty, which is coming out. And you're kind of marching through books to the Bible, talking about really interesting, counterintuitive scriptural lessons. Talk to us about what's there, what's that evolving into. And also just how the Jewish scriptures are unique from what we would consider the Christian scriptures, where the difference is there as well as the similarities.
MIchael Eisenberg: How many hours do we have?
John Coleman: As many as you want, Michael. I know I ask a lot of questions, all bundled up in one there.
MIchael Eisenberg: So like I said, I'm for books in on the biblical series. I also have a book I wrote years ago on the Book of Esther, which is about Jewish identity, by the way. Funny story. And the one I wrote on the Book of Esther, I got a call from a Catholic friend of mine in Los Angeles who called me up saying, You know, you could have written that book about Catholics as well, and not just about Jews. So I told him I would, but I didn't have the same experience. So he was free to take it and adapt it as he saw fit in the biblical series of the five books of Moses. So I've done The Tree of Life, of Prosperity and Genesis. Everyone can be Moses on Exodus, what I call Roaring Tribe on Leviticus. I'll spend more time with that in a second. And the most recent one is Milk, Honey and Uncertainty on the Book of Numbers. And the Book of Deuteronomy, which I'm working on now in Hebrew, doesn't have a name yet. So Genesis, I'll start there, takes a look at the stories of the forefathers in the context of, Hey, this is real life. And so, for example, if you look at the story of the Garden of Eden, I view that as a situation of universal basic income. Adam and Eve were fed, you know, Christian doctrine is to look at it as original sin. In Judaism, there's two schools of thought on that, whether it was a sin or just call it, you know, growing out of adolescence. But, you know, the Bible chooses to tell us the story of somebody in an idyllic society where all his needs are provided for by God and he either sins or grows out of it or definitely does something inappropriate, and then he's expelled. And as he begins to sweat and work by the sweat of his brow and harvest, he for the first time has children. And I think what it tells us, there aren't any children in the Garden of Eden. Right. And I think because man and woman, by the way, man doesn't even talk to woman there. Adam does not talk to Eve. They don't have a joint project and everything to work on. They have no future look forward to. Everything's provided for them. They become indolent. And you know, the scholars, the sages say that indolence leads to boredom. And boredom leads to sin. And, you know, I think that happens when we have our basic needs provided for. And man was actually destined to work. I used to joke about a rabbi of mine that he was the first Orthodox Jewish Protestant, you know, Calvinist in that way. And I believe in the value work. And I think the Bible believes in the value of work and in being productive. And so I looked at universal basic income, you know, for something that's very relevant to today, the story of Noah. You know, if I asked you who was Noah, your obvious answer. That's the average person on the street, Jew or Christian, by the way. Who is Noah? Well, he built the ark, but we can actually prove through the scripture. Itself. And the rabbis tell us this also that Noah invented the plow. Noah didn't only invent the plow. Noah invented chemistry because it says he planted a vineyard and grew wine. And when you think about that and you think about our modern challenges of, you know, AI it's all over the place now in the world. AI is destructive. AI is the best thing that ever happened to man. And yet there is technology, like the invention of the mechanical plow, like the invention of chemistry is a tool. And if we don't put an Abrahamic ethical framework around it, it's going to run awry and it's going to corrupt society. Exactly what happened to Noah and why we had the flood. Exactly what happened to Noah in his tent after he drank too much wine and was castrated or abused by his son. And so every technology is dual use, so to speak. It can be used for good and used for bad. And so I spent most of Genesis working through story after story about what the core values are economically that the Bible is trying to impart to us. And then I spent Exodus and everyone can be Moses looking for the leadership and societal lessons called The Adventures of Moses or the Society as described in the Ten Commandments there and the building at the Tabernacle. Just one example is they went to Michael Dell, who's the CEO of Dell Computing, and asked him what was the most important trait for a leader in the 21st century? And he said, curiosity. Well, good for him. He learned it from Moses. How do I know? Because we can ask a simple question Why did God choose Moses? And you think about Moses by the ways we don't appreciate this, but the guy walks into the most powerful ruler in the world and says, Let my people go. So we talk about God sending a message to a lot of people who think that God maybe spoke to them, but they don't have the [.....] to stand up to the most powerful ruler in the world and say something to them. And I think Moses, when he kind of is drifting in the wilderness and he sees the burning bush that will not be consumed, he goes to explore it. And the verse literally says, and God saw that he strayed from his path to observe and behold, the burning bush would not be consume. And God calls out to him, Moses, Moses. And he says, I am here, God. Right. So what God saw was that Moses strayed from his path. Curiously, out of curiosity, to see why this book should not be consumed, even though it was burning. And so Moses teaching as the curiosity is the key trait for a leader who wants to make change. And I think, by the way, that's been true throughout history. And I spent a fair amount of time, you know, for example, on what is the modern application of do not covet the 10th of the commandments of the Ten Commandments and do not covet like a zero sum thing, right? Do not covet your fellow's wife. Do not covet is donkey or his farm animal. And the reason is, by the way, those are both the means of production. The farm animals. That's a factory, right? And his wife is what turns him into someone who protects his home and he can't be there for be an economic character. But in the digital age, these are not zero sum games. And so empowering people to be successful in the digital age by sharing knowledge is actually economically increasing. It increases GDP, it increases economic output because this kind of interaction between different kinds of knowledge helps us out. I'll move quickly to Leviticus, which is called the Roaring Tribe. I what I described there, you know, we're all suffering right now across the world from tribalism. This is great new book by Tim Urban. I don't know if you've read it. I think it's called What's Our Story. You know, he describes the increasing tribalism right in blue in America. It's true everywhere. He has his own prescription. Mine in the book says that Leviticus is about a tribe called the tribe of Levi, which has the priests in it. And an increasing outward spiral where it's attempting to do is to create a covenant, an economic covenant among the people, to empower others to be successful, to take responsibility for your fellow, for your brother there. But it also creates some bridges to other tribes. You asked before about Christians and Jews. And so if the Jewish people is a covenant, there are other people who have covenant. And our job is and this is why it's called the roaring tribe, what we're after in society is what I call respectful tribalism. Sebastian Junger has a great book called Tribe. We all want to be part of a tribe. It could be a religious tribe, it can be a political tribe, etc. That's great because it gives us safety, security, you know, a capitalist network, etc.. But if we're not respectful of other tribes, we're going to end up in where we are right now, which is a disaster. The last book is called Milk and Honey Uncertainty in the Book of Numbers, where I chart through that this 40 year sojourn through the wilderness is basically to teach the Jewish people to deal with uncertainty. How you deal with leadership challenges in uncertainty, how you deal with changing economic circumstances, uncertainty how you deal with shortages, water shortages and food shortages that they encounter and that create uncertainty. And what are the lessons from that, both for investors, for businesspeople and for society at large? And just to finish out the thought, one of the things that I think we get wrong a lot is the difference between risk management and uncertainty. Somebody who manages a hedge fund is a risk manager, is looking for the number of standard deviations from the norm. Guys in the venture capital business like myself are investing into uncertainty and trying to benefit and leverage uncertainty. And that's a whole different set of skills and. I think tells us a lot about where we are at society today.
John Coleman: Now, that's awesome. Michael and I honestly can't wait for the translations. I think I knocked out the Tree of Life and Prosperity in about 48 hours, and I think one of the things that I really appreciated for my own faith is just how diligently people like yourself and so many in Judaism reflect on the scriptures, dig deeply into them. I remember coming across your analysis of Noah, which you talked about with all of this great rich scriptural interpretation of the Noah story about him as an innovator and an inventor. I had no idea about the plow, about the vineyards, and it was just shocking how much more depth there was to the scriptures than I had taken from them. And I think a thinker like you who's not afraid to be counterintuitive, he's not afraid to to kind of dig deeply into areas that others haven't interpreted and only enlivens that in the spirit of getting to this idea of faith driven investing. I wanted to dive right in to getting your insights on what faith driven investing looks like in Judaism. You know it sovereign's capital and faith driven investor. We often talk about this idea that all investing is impact investing, that basically since the dawn of humanity, people have tried to align their financial lives with their most deeply held values. And certainly I think the scriptures, the Jewish scriptures, were one of the first places in which that manifests. As you reflect on what faith driven investing means in the Jewish context. Michael, what are some of the key tenets of that, both historically and that you see manifesting today?
MIchael Eisenberg: So I have been talking about a term more recently which has come out of a lot of the speeches I gave around the book. And after kind of reflecting on this, I think what the Bible advocates is what I call now covenantal capitalism. And it has two points to it. Capitalism says I have private property. Capitalism says that the profit motive is good, much like Adam Smith did in the brewer and the baker. Doing their job should increase all of our welfare and output. What I think people miss, and I think by the way, your podcast, your movement has done a great job of driving home to people is capitalism works. When there is an underlying covenant. There is a great writer. His name is Barbara Allen. She wrote on de Tocqueville, who points out that the Protestant covenant underlies the foundation of capitalism in America. And so what happens when the covenant is frayed is capitalism comes unmoored. But if the community or the covenant, as I prefer to call it, takes care of its members, empowers its members, asks about what are my responsibilities to the other members and not just what are my rights as an individual? Then capitalism thrives. And so the problem you ever saw about the problem of capitalism, there's nothing wrong with capitalism. The problem is with we, you know, an individualistic society frays the kind of underlying fabric that is needed for capitalism. And that's what we need to fix. And so I think the notion of scripture, which talks about brother and fellow didn't think about sisters back then as much, but brother and fellow and the transparency that covenant and community deliver so that they don't screw or take advantage of my neighbor or my fellow is foundational to the future of capitalism. And so one of the very important elements of the Jewish faith and by the way, this was a challenge between Jews and Christians in the Middle Ages that thankfully we've gotten past is lending with interest is a big challenge in Judaism, by the way, in Islam as well, in Shariah law as well. And so why is that? We need to ask, why is that? And the answer is that in the Book of Proverbs, it tells us that the borrower is enslaved to the lender. By the way, if that sounds like a lot of people underwater on their houses right now, it's not an accident. And when we are in debt, we develop a scarcity mentality. There's a professor at Princeton. His name is Arnon Shafir, who spends a lot of time talking about what happens when people are in scarcity mentality. They turn on their survival instincts and make terrible decisions about their own finances. And so the Bible is trying to create an air of abundance in the economy, number one, and number two, to make sure that we are not enslaved to the people we borrow money from and hence interest rates, which tend to compound and be variable, as the case may be today, are a very challenging mechanism for that. But we need to separate that, by the way, from business credit, because business credit's like an investment. There's no personal liability if you've got a corporate veil. And so you don't become enslaved to it. But we need to be very, very careful about consumer credit. And so, you know, I backed a company here called Rise Up, which is taking on the consumer credit narrative. I mean, you watch television today, which I try not to do, and all they're doing is pushing consumer credit at you. It's a disaster. We are enslaving people to their credit cards and we need to be careful with that.
John Coleman: Yeah Michael. I'd love a couple of the comments you're making there. You know, one of my mentors in college was actually a Catholic scholar named Peter Lawlor, who was one of the great Tocqueville scholars and wrote a book called Self-interest Rightly Understood, which effectively argued that Tocqueville, in self-interest, the way that the United States was founded, was actually very different than the kind of isolationist, individualistic self-interest that many people consider it today, that it actually was underpinned by a communal instinct, by commitment to community institutions and by faith. And when I was in business school, I had this reiterated I don't know if you're familiar with that business scholar named Clay Christiansen. He passed away just a few years ago, a faithful Mormon believer. And he actually has a great video up on the connection between religion and capitalism. And he had had a dialog with a Chinese scholar who had pushed the idea to Clay that capitalism couldn't work in a society like modern China had been eroded of its religious foundations or of any religious foundations, because capitalism only worked in a society of mutual trust, of values that allowed people to work together constructively, that you effectively couldn't build the compliance into capitalism to control its worst instincts, that that had to be underpinned by a moral foundation. And what you're describing, I think, is the way that most religious traditions historically, at least have thought about capitalism and free enterprise is is it's got enormous power. Societies have been structured around this for some time. However, that power has to be countered by a shared set of values. I love the concept of tribalism that you had a constructive tribalism and that those values have to be moral. They have to be deeply held so that they can guide those instincts of capitalism, which is what I think you're describing. And I do think that is the underpinning of all types of faith driven investing now.
MIchael Eisenberg: Yeah. So, you know, I think there's a lot of truth to this notion that in atheists societies it is more difficult. Doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's more difficult to create the level of trust that capitalism requires because it's impossible to regulate for every scenario, just impossible. And so we need to assume a basic level of trust. There are proxies for it other than faith. But, you know, you use Plato's rings of guidance. There are certain things that religion causes us to be fearful of, including do not covet things. You just wouldn't do that other people, in the absence of faith, would think differently about That doesn't mean all of them. There are plenty of moral and ethical people who are invested in community who aren't like that. But I think if you have a large society of people where there's a complete absence of faith, you could end up in a difficult spot for capitalism over time.
John Coleman: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Yeah, that's not to discount that as certain people without religious faith can't be moral, can't be great people. Like you said, in a large society, the absence of their shared values I think is quite challenging. You describe this kind of covenantal capitalism, which I love. I love that term honestly, And how that impacts the way that people do business as you look at modern Judaism and the way that faith manifests in investing principles. Do you see a faith driven investing ecosystem now around Judaism and do you see firms that are trying to operate specifically by Jewish faith, either through negative screening or positive screening or different business practices, or what does that ecosystem look like right now in Judaism?
MIchael Eisenberg: I think the first thing is, is that there are a lot of communities and the Jewish community writ large. We're helping other people get started in business. And patronizing those businesses helps people get their businesses started. And so I think that's kind of the first level of it. I think there are a number of people who practice what I talked about before, which is providing interest free loans. There is this amazing for profit almost organization in Israel called Ogen, which provides interest free loans to people. How is for profit? I spent in a different time when I have time for that that enables people to get their small businesses started. And so that's a real implementation of this, what I call a biblical setup that says be someone's partner and not their creditor. And I think, by the way, the whole biblical system I cover this in the book Roaring Tribe is set up so that we should become partners and not creditors. And that's why the system has prohibitions on taking interest, and that's why the system has mechanisms for dealing with price gouging of your fellow or your brother. There are less what I would call kind of investment funds that specifically talk about this. But I think there are a lot of what I would call a Jewish values based investing principles that manifest himself and many Israeli companies I've talked about this in the context of, you know, a company called Empathy that we're invested in, which is helping next of kin after a loved one passes away. And they're kind of a very empathetic and empowering way that helping them interact with their life insurance companies rise up, which is a company I mentioned earlier, which is getting people out of debt and making them investors and has kind of issued this kind of conspicuous consumption or credit card consumption approach to life so people don't fall into debt. And we've made a bunch of investments around these themes. And it's not only religious in nature. I think there's something about community and DNA. DNA. I don't mean genes, by the way. I mean a cultural DNA that causes one to do this. And by the way, if you go to a synagogue or a church that becomes your social network and going back to de Tocqueville, I think that's what he saw in many Christian communities around the United States, is the church was your support community, your business community. People could lean on. And that was incredibly valuable financially and economically for these communities and for capitalism.
John Coleman: Yeah. And that concept of self-interest, rightly understood is the individual centered in community rather than the individual as as a pure entity or as it is a solely individualistic entity.
MIchael Eisenberg: Yeah. By the way, you know, we only get to impact investing because we have individualism. If the system works based on community, you can make as much money as you want because ultimately you were supporting your community. I don't mean charitable, by the way, but enabling other people to become wealthy as well as successful. And so I'd argue impact investing is a response to, you know, individualism, which is kind of capitalism unmoored rather than a return to the roots of let's create the community first and then capitalism will be just fine if we kind of reinvest in covenant and empowering our businesses, our local businesses, our communities, the people we connect with and be empathetic towards them and empowering, we don't need to get to impact investing. We should all make as much money as we can.
John Coleman: Yeah, and what's been shown very clearly, I think, over the last 30 or 40 years is that capitalism is the greatest enemy of poverty. And stagnation in history, right? I mean, it's been a tool that's lifted billions and billions of people out of poverty, out of destitution, out of hunger. It's unleashed this remarkable human potential. Right. And it is I think there are distinctively, at least in our faith tradition, Christian elements to that. Right. I wouldn't argue that capitalism and Christianity are exactly the same thing. And I think there are some errors to correct for in unbridled capitalism, but it's actually the foundation of capitalism and free enterprise that allows individuals to flourish with all the creativity that they possess. So I couldn't agree more about its power to really empower a community and to do good for people. And it's done more arguably for people than charitable enterprises have over the last 40 or 50 years in a lot of respects. Digging into the way that you run Aleph. Michael, you've talked about this a little bit. It seems like you're investing in companies that also have a deep missional impact, or at least that's my reflection on some of those that you're describing. How does your faith influence the way that you run Aleph as a venture capital firm?
MIchael Eisenberg: You know, it's important for me to point out that my partners are not necessarily people of faith. I love them dearly. They're my brothers and we have a wonderful partnership, marriage. And so, you know, we run Aleph as an equal partnership and we each have equal say. I have a view that businesses that do good by their customers rather than abuse them, end up being just better businesses. And so like I often use Lemonade, which is an insurance company as an example, where, you know, if you think about a traditional insurance company, State Farm, Allstate, whoever it is, their business model is they make money by making you miserable. What does that mean? They make more profit when they deny your claim, You know, lemonade or I'm an investor, a public company now, you know, set up its business so it's not conflicted with its customers. They take a flat fee to run the pool. That in my view, and by the way, they give the leftover premiums to charity of the consumer's choice. I think that's a much more aligned business model that wants to make a lot of money to do that. And that's a reflection of what you call values. I think just good investing right now. I think this is exactly what people want. We are all longing for a time where we are aligned, where we have a covenant and a community. I told the story in the article I wrote for Fortune on Covenantal Capitalism about speaking to a group of Harvard students. There was a young woman there was from New Zealand, and I asked her if she had a local bakery and she said yes. She said, What happened during COVID? She said it went out of business. I said, Why is it what people didn't patronize in the supply chain and this, that and the other? I said, You miss? And she said, Yes. I said, Well, in our community in Jerusalem, we had a similar problem. The difference is that the people in the community got together, advanced their money, meaning they bought things on account for, you know, a year forward so that they would have enough cash flow to get through COVID. And now we're so happy because the people in our community, we had a so unbelievable bakery. They're a staple in the community. And now, by the way, they turn up at our family events and they're part of the community. And I think that's kind of a hallmark of covenantal capitalism. They're making good money now. They're doing good, but, you know, get people through tough times so that they can be economically empowered. And I think that kind of alignment and covenant matters a lot.
John Coleman: You know, we talk a lot about love of neighbor and the Christian tradition and that love of neighbor that you're talking about, just how effortless that is and the ability to lean into others and support one another. And you're right, still using the profit motive. Hopefully everybody ends up doing well for themselves, but it just shows a real empathy and care for others.
MIchael Eisenberg: I'll say, show me controversial. Can I say some controversial?
John Coleman: Yes.
MIchael Eisenberg: I think we can sometimes fool ourselves and say love, our neighbor is actually love. But the question is, what are you willing to sacrifice for it? And I think, you know, when you part with money, not just in a charitable way, but, you know, you may even hurt for the short term, that shows on some level an even deeper love or covenant that drives that love. And I think that's important to force people out of their comfort zone to feel a little bit of sacrifice, you know, to show that love.
John Coleman: Yeah. You're a father of eight. I'm a father of four. I think we both know that love always involves sacrifice. What a great point. But, you know, that does involve giving something real of yourself. And I think what you're describing is exactly that. You live in this world of venture capital. Now you've got a view of investing broadly. Compare and contrast, if you would, kind of the dominant ESG approach to investing or social responsibility that you see out there right now with what you're describing, because obviously I don't know how it is in Israel at the moment in the United States, ESG has exploded, but recently it's also become a bit controversial in terms of some of the ideas that it's forwarding. And so we often get the question, you know, what's the difference between faith driven investing and ESG? And in this case, you know, this covenantal capitalism that you're describing, What are the differences and similarities with ESG as you see it?
MIchael Eisenberg: Oh, man, I think ESG is a grift. And it was a way for asset managers to aggregate asset and deliver subpar returns and not be criticized for it.
John Coleman: Tell us. How you really feel, Michael.
MIchael Eisenberg: Yeah, I think I argue this in the book. I can't remember in which one of them. I think the first one, the one you have to life and prosperity. So, you know, these are all sorts of big words, ESG, everyone measures them differently. It's not clear how they either impact the bottom line or actually impact society or create a better society. I laughed. You know, lemonade, which I think is not a pretty aligned business model, was rated lower than I think like Exxon. I'm a fan. Exxon do not missunderstand me and it's like it's a very poorly defined, even more poorly measured investment principle with no teeth other than making people feel good and no real underlying values other than kind of the new new thing of whatever somebody's dreamed up is called environmental or social or governance. And I think we'd all agree that we all have different views of many of these social values. And so, you know, I'm personally a big fan of transparency rather than any of these other things. tell me, what you really think? Yeah, I'll say something complex. You know, Ben Jerry's I think it's a very good ESG rating. I think they've been terribly anti-Semitic. I was happy to find that out so I don't have to buy their products. And, you know, Unilever got hurt by it and they obviously somehow the s got okay there, even there. I thought they were terribly anti-Semitic know. I know it's run by two Jewish guys. And so I don't know what to make of ESG. I really think it's just an unbelievable way for asset managers to collect assets and deliver subpar returns. Great marketing, by the way. Amazing. Brilliant marketing. There's no covenants in it, though. In a covenant, they would have made sure that their investors made a lot more money, not less.
John Coleman: And I think, look, I saw a ton of elements of what you're describing in my time in asset management where, you know, I think there are people who went into it on a mission. Some of those people I would disagree with the mission that they were on, but went into it with a mission and they're still the true believers. But so much of this has turned into a commercial activity [....], as you described it, in the sense that once it became better to have the rating than not, once it became kind of a part of doing business to get the rating, people began to manipulate the ratings. The whole system kind of grew up to manipulate it. There was a great tweet by the ever controversial Elon Musk, like a year ago, a year or two ago, where he pointed out the same thing you did with eliminate, where Tesla was rated lower than some of the big oil and gas companies on the E part of ESG. And he said, you know, what kind of rating system could possibly come up with this if it were legitimately about what's transforming the environment? And that was true, right? I love the oil and gas companies. I think oil and gas has a bright future. I think it's been incredibly important for unleashing human potential. But hard to argue, you know, that Exxon would be better environmentally than Lemonade or Tesla, for example. I want to switch to what we call lightning Round in a moment, just to get to a few quick questions with you, Michael. But one thing I wanted to end on was also just to ask you a broad question. As you study the Hebrew Bible and you've got many close associates who are Christians, what are parts of the Hebrew Bible that you think Christians don't dig deeply into and not for what's a part of the Hebrew Bible that you would encourage all Christians to study more carefully.
MIchael Eisenberg: I want to make a meta comment first, if I can, which is and as I told you, I maybe I'll give you a surprise. I have this idea that I think we need to do like a covenantal conference in Jerusalem about the future of capitalism. And yes, it should involve Jews and Christians and Muslims to think about, you know, what are the covenant of the future that will undergird our economic growth as peoples for the future. And I think the kind of meta comment is there is a lot of work to be done right now across different faith backgrounds, people of different faith backgrounds, to kind of reinvest in this covenant so that capitalism can kind of keep growing and as you said before, be the greatest engine of prosperity and of human advance that we know. And I think there's a benefit to diversity of different religious experiences in creating that, you know, foundation for the future. And so the first thing I would actually say to what you call a Christian audience is that both the old and the New Testament, by the way, which I've read, I don't study nearly as much as I do the Hebrew Bible, but I have read it. And you need to invest in Scripture to the extent we really believe that these are foundational principles, they should be read and reread and internalized over time. That's kind of point 1 in the Hebrew Bible. I think one of the core elements that we need to kind of dig into is this notion of empowering our brothers and sisters through the economy. And I think that's more present in the Hebrew Bible. Than it is in the New Testament, particularly in the Book of Leviticus and the Book of Deuteronomy, and then in some levels in the book of Jeremiah and Isaiah. And so I think that's super important and I would dig into that. The last piece is we need to ask ourselves is people of faith in a modern world. Where are the areas that we think there are changes and where are the areas that we need to be steadfast? And I think one of the interesting things about the Hebrew biblical experience, which I believe is different from the Christian biblical experience, is the way the rabbis interpreted and reinterpreted. We have this notion of oral law, of essentially an evolving set of laws and applications for how we apply scripture through the generations as they become more modern and they change. And I think that's actually something, although it's not in the Hebrew Bible, it's more in the Talmudic realm that is valuable for a Christian audience as well.
John Coleman: Well, Michael, this has been an extraordinarily helpful discussion. I love this idea of a covenantal conference, and so I hope you'll count us in as partners on that if if you're serious about it and if we want it.
MIchael Eisenberg: I'm very serious about it. I'm talking to someone. We both know about it. We'll see if we get there.
John Coleman: Yeah. I would love to dig into this more with you offline before we close out today and maybe a more personal question, we ask everyone at the end of the Faith driven Ambassador podcast what God is teaching them right now through Scripture. So just kind of in your personal studies of Scripture, is there something that God's teaching you right now in any realm that you'd want to share with others?
MIchael Eisenberg: So I have. Don't take this the wrong way. I'm never sure what God is telling me or teaching me. What I can say is that the Bible and the thousands of years it's been around teaches us to have a long term view. And I think in the social media era, most people have a, you know, 24 hour or ten second view. And I think the perspective given by biblical scripture tells us processes take time and we need to take a longer view of what's going on in the world right now than what's maybe under our nose are disappearing in a tweet from 10 minutes ago.
John Coleman: I love that. Michael Eisenberg, we're very excited to see your new books coming out. We're very excited about the investing that you're doing through Aleph, which I've been mispronouncing for most of the podcast. I apologize.
MIchael Eisenberg: That's okay.
John Coleman: We're very excited to see the follow up on this covenantal conference and the development of this idea of covenant capitalism, and just so grateful to you for your willingness to share with us and for the positive difference you're making in the world through your work in writing. So thank you so much for being on the Faith Driven Investor podcast today.
MIchael Eisenberg: Thank you, John. I want to commend you. I think it's not obvious that you've reached out to people of other faiths, and I value our friendship and our meeting. And I hope, like I said, I'll see you, your wife and your kids again in Israel soon or in the U.S. And I think, you know, the work you're doing is special and important, and I commend you for it. It's not trivial. So thank you. Thank you for the hard work you're doing.
John Coleman: Thank you, Michael. And see you soon.