Episode 127 - Phil Cunningham is Making the Movies that Shape Culture
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Phil Cunningham is a leader in Africa’s entertainment industry, but it didn’t start out that way. Phil grew up in rural Zimbabwe where he started a small agricultural business to make money as a young man. He didn’t see his first film until he was 14, but when he did, it changed his life forever. He immediately saw the power storytelling, particularly through animation. Phil talks about the power of media and its unique ability to shape the narrative of culture.
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Luke Roush: Welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I am Luke Roush and I'm here with Phil Cunningham and Andrew Firman as my co-host. So we're going to hear from Phil in a second. But before we do that, I'd love to turn it over. Andrew Furman joining us from Texas, but with particular responsibilities and focus in the part of the world where Phil operates. So, Andrew, would you just mind introducing yourself and where you come from, what you're doing here?
Andrew Firman: Of course. Yeah. And I appreciate that. Luke, really excited to be with you guys today. So I'm a principal here at Sovereign's Capital and a lot of the work that I do is actually based around very early stage venture capital with a very strong focus in sub-Saharan Africa. So I am very excited about the podcast today and also just as a whole really seeing the work that God is doing through Faith driven entrepreneurs across the continent of Africa. It's been incredibly encouraging and I think we all get excited about what that vision could look like in three, five, ten, 15 years as these faith driven entrepreneurs keep doing the work that God's called them too. So it's a really exciting season, we think, for Africa. And Phil, I think that's one of the reasons why we're so excited to have you on today.
Phil Cunningham: Thank you.
Luke Roush: Yeah. Phil, welcome to the FDI Podcast. We love to start out just with a quick overview of who you are, how you ended up here. So if you wouldn't mind, just maybe take us through a brief biography of your background.
Phil Cunningham: Great and firstly, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. It's really great to be with you guys. It's awesome all the way from Africa. So quick biography. I was born in Zimbabwe and I was, to be honest, so lucky where I was born. It was my family were incredible. My parents were incredible. I grew up in the great outdoors. There's one place close to where I lived where you could canoe for five days and four nights and you wouldn't see a human being. It was just elephant, buffalo, lion, and it was in those great outdoors that I grew up and connected with God. That's where I fell in love with God and God's personality, just that massive vista. And it fell in love with his adventurous spirit and just who he is. So there was incredible thing to grow up there. And I've always loved storytelling even as a as a boy growing up, I just love campfire stories. And every weekend I'll just fluff stories in my notebook and tell stories. But that's that was my foundation. And where I grew up was in Zimbabwe and just really connected with God there, went to university, studied agriculture because that's what everyone in our family did do you in the agricultural industry. Then I started my own agricultural business after that, which really took off and was doing well. But in brief, I couldn't shake this incredible passion to tell stories. And also I was very cognizant of the university watching movies, of the power of stories to move people's hearts and really change people. So the long story short, I shut down my agricultural business, moved from Zimbabwe to Cape Town, and we started an animation studio just over 20 years ago now. Yeah.
Luke Roush: And tell us just about maybe just the origin story of I think your wife played a role in encouraging you to move towards telling stories, maybe just a couple of highlights as to how that began. And was it easy from the beginning or was actually a difficult?
Phil Cunningham: That's a great question. So the agricultural business was going super well, but since, as I was saying, since a boy had this passion to tell stories and to quickly rewind, when I was at university, I was really struck by the power of movies and how they were impacting society. They've got this Trojan horse effects, these stories have this Trojan horse effect, particularly stories told through movies. And they've got this power to get in people's defense mechanisms and plant a seed for good or bad. So I couldn't shake. That's what I was noticing in stories. But I started an agricultural business then. My wife she is an amazing person, very brave, she says. Phil, I can see your passion is storytelling. You should really follow your dream and go into the movie business. And I can remember telling my one friend in Zimbabwe, This is what I want to do, he said. Phil that's like saying you're going to start a Ferrari factory in your backyard. You know, the day you make one scene out of that, I'll eat my hats. But I also read a saying that says an eagle chases two rabbits. Both will get away. So shut down agricultural business. And we focused 100% in film which to be honest was really tough at first because what I hadn't realized was the incredible power of relationship in business and in the agricultural sector. We had this amazing network of relationships. So what was really hard are stepping into an industry that I hadn't been trained in, I knew nothing about, and I had no relational network at all. And I think that was the biggest challenge. And what was hardest in getting started was just trying to build those relationships and connect and understand how the industry worked. I can remember going to my first film festival in Berlin and I was just watching all these people. They look so busy, they all look like they knew what they were doing. And I was just watching all this busyness and wondering how on earth does this industry actually work? But yeah, the hard part was really rebuilding credibility and relationships in totally brand new industry. Yeah.
Andrew Firman: Well, Phil, one of the things I love you said just a minute or two ago is, you know, good or bad movies plant a seed. I'd love to pivot over to David for a second. Just what you're working on now. When you think about David as a film, what sort of responsibility do you feel when it comes to making movies. So in other words, how can you be honest about the telling of this story and be able to link that to a bigger message of hope?
Phil Cunningham: Oh, well, that's such an awesome question, and I'll try to keep the answer brief because I could talk for days about that. But very briefly, in terms of the what are you going to do from a storyteller's point of view? I just want to say we've gone super deep in our research, so we've done five trips to Israel. We are really going deep into making an authentic film that really comes with a foundation of deep research, deep accuracy. We've connected with people in the Jewish communities. We really want the foundations of those films to come from an authentic place. The heart of the film goes right back to what I was saying when I was canoeing down the Zambezi River. We all bumped into God, if I can say that, and was struck by his incredible personality. At the same time I was reading in the Book of Acts, I found in David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart. And so I was like, Wow, if we could tell a story on David's life, it potentially could give people a glimpse into God's hearts. Well, of course, David was an imperfect person like all of us. But what I can see in his heart was this musical heart, his humility, this adventurous heart, this incredible leadership heart, shepherd hearts. And it felt like if we could tell a story on David, it could really perhaps give people a glimpse into God's heart. So but there's a huge responsibility in this in three things. One is you can't be preachy. So the project has to be the movie has to be super entertaining. It must entertain and really grab people. It must be authentic. So it must be based on what really happened and things that were going on in his time and the architecture of his time, the clothing of his time, for example. But at its heart, it must also deliver in showing God's heart, which is the intersection of all three of those, I think is the responsibility of making a movie like this. Yeah.
Andrew Firman: I love that Phil. What resonates with me a lot about your story when you shared your background is the fact that you didn't start off in film. As I said, you know, there's that pivot from agriculture over to film. So as you've been in this for a while and even as you work on David and you mentioned, you know, the importance of doing all these things and excellence, having an engaging story, what do you think it is about the film medium that makes it so powerful?
Phil Cunningham: Yeah, that's an amazing question. And quickly rewind and I'll answer that question as well. But as part of your question, just to quickly say about making films of excellence and quality, recently we just went to the [...] Film Festival and we stopped by Paris and with my wife and kids, we walked from Arc de Triomphe to Eiffel Tower to the Louver. And as a filmmaker and as a creator, I was like, Wow, if you look at the creators of those centuries, the scale at which they dreamed, the detail that they put into the architecture was mindblowing. And we were just saying, as filmmakers, we can make blocks of offices, blocks of flats and turn money and make money, or we can really try and make projects are going to stand the test of time. And I would say it's not just human time, but but eternity as well. So we always felt like that, but it was really inspiring us walking on Paris just to say we want to make projects that are going to count, but that takes incredible patience, incredible dedication and a lot of hard work as well to get it there. But I think going back to your final part of your question, what makes movies so powerful? So stories are powerful in any form? I think the thing about movies that are hitting people go in with an open heart. Typically they are relaxed, they're watching, it's visual. So you've got sound and you've got visual and you've got dialog. When you're reading a book, it's also powerful. But movies are particularly powerful because it's hitting more of your senses than just dialog. It's everything coming at you and you can get lost in the story, and that's what actually causes you to drop your defense mechanism. Cause you so engaged in the story, you don't realize what's coming past you for good or bad, actually. Yeah.
Luke Roush: Well, I'll tell you in that for good or bad is a great illustration of how media, you know, has affected people. And I think it's important to be aware, actually, the power that film in particular has to move our emotions in a positive direction that would be aligned with our values or potentially in the other direction. And one of the things that I as you were talking about, the Arc de Triomphe and Notre Dame and other things that you saw in your travel, I don't know how the Arc de Triomphe was funded, but I'm pretty sure that Notre Dame was funded in the same manner that David was funded. So maybe just talk a little bit about why you went down the crowdfunding route.
Phil Cunningham: Yeah. And linked to that, which I didn't know till recently, the Statue of Liberty was funded through crowdfunding, so the guy and he built the hand with the torch and then took that in built a booth around it and from that crowdfunded the rest of the Statue of Liberty, which is such a fascinating story, because what it stands for, the Statue of Liberty and how they built it was through crowdfunding.
Luke Roush: Which is more powerful. Way more powerful.
Phil Cunningham: So why crowdfunding? There's so many reasons. And not that every project suits crowdfunding. I'll say that's like and we can get back to the question later. But one thing the power of crowdfunding for me is the power of community. So if you look at a project like The Chosen, which was crowdfunded and you look at the incredible impact it's having globally and not just in the US but right around the globe. What's driving the engine? Driving the chosen is. The power of community. And so I saw that. The other thing as a creator, when you're working with a lot of big studios, creative leadership or control is a big thing. And at the end of the day, whoever's financing the project is actually in creative control. So the beauty of crowdfunding as a creator is if the crowd get behind you there are entrusting you to hold on to that light or to the steering wheel and stay in creative control. So there's two massive wins for me with the crowdfunding. One is you're building a community, so you've got this in-built engine when you're getting to market the film and actually distribute it. You've already got this both community that are behind you by speaking on the film's behalf and then promoting the film, and they're going to pitch up and support you. But the biggest thing for me, and I'm really like David in particular, is in a world where there's a lot of complexity and people are trying to grab control of creative projects, you retain creative control of the project, which is absolutely critical for me for a movie like David. Yeah.
Luke Roush: Well, in the podcast that you did with Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa, you know, talk about this, we talk about this a lot on the Faith Driven Investor podcast, but in the work that we do, excellence matters, and that may be even more true in filmmaking. So maybe just speak a little bit about how that axiom influences your work and how you go about your work. Just time and attention on details. Love to have you to speak to excellence in your craft.
Phil Cunningham: I love that. To answer that question, I think one of the best things I can say, I've just finished reading a book called Atomic Habits, and it's incredible book because it talks about the aggregation of marginal gains. And if I can quickly pull one excerpt from the book, it talks about the British cycling team and on 100 years that only won one Olympic gold medal. Then the new coach took over and he was a big advocate of the aggregation of marginal gains. And in the ten year period, we took over. They won 66 Olympic medals. They'd never won the Tour de France. They won it three times. But when they practiced, they went down to incredible detail. So like, for example, he got a surgeon to show the cyclist how to wash their hands. So they didn't get germs. They took the pillows that the cyclist slept with at home and made sure that the exact same pillows when they were touring inside of the bus, they had like painted in wax because any dust in the cog, too, slows you down. And he just went through all the micro details, and I really believe in that. And I was talking to my son, who loved sport the other day, and we were just discussing how to become one of the best in sport. Aggregation of marginal gains is no different in movie making. It's no different in business. You can't sit on the couch as a sportsman eating pies and say, Oh, well, because because I'm a Christian, somehow I'm going to just become a great American footballer. You've got to do as many press ups, you've got to do as many pushups and train as hard if you want to get to that level of excellence. So of course we'll get to the spirit of the film. But in terms of just the excellence of the craft of filmmaking, I'm super passionate about quality. There's a lot that goes into quality, as we know. And I'll say one more thing on quality, but I think one of the biggest factors is the aggregation of marginal gains. The other thing I can say, which maybe my wife would say is not the hardest thing, is but always employ people smarter than yourself. I read that in in Michael Dells biography where he said that's how he grew. Dell was just always looking for and working with people smarter than himself. And so I'm a huge believer finding people who are brilliant in their specific field, in animation, which is the industry we're in and just going after the best of the best and always reaching for that. So that because they just pull your curve up as well. Yeah.
Andrew Firman: Phil, you know, again, I really just love seeing this journey that God had you on and how it's just provided in so many different areas. And one of the things that really resonates with me is in a wonderful way how different this is from a lot of the normal films we see that are funded by Hollywood, produced in Hollywood. So as you know, Luke asked you, this is crowdfunded, which I love, but also David is being produced in Africa and not some animation studio in Hollywood. Why is that? We'd love for you to just talk about that for a few minutes.
Phil Cunningham: So I think the God reasons is that because God uses the weak and foolish things of the world to shame the wise. But on a serious note, I think often when you start on another journey, God is like making you live the storytelling often. So for example, David fought Goliath. He went against Goliath with a slingshot and a stone. And I think that's why I feel in this movie, genuinely, God is using a studio in Africa. The one thing is that I feel we're coming from a place that is super original and is not derivative. So one of the challenges actually sitting in Hollywood, they've lots of amazing things going for them. So I'm not trying to knock what's happening in Hollywood, but what I would say, what are the challenges? So much of the story content in the way it's been created is very derivative because we are so far removed from that circle. I think a lot of what's coming out of Africa is originality, if I can say that. The other thing I'd say with there's a Neil Diamond song that says money talks, but it can't sing, it can't dance, it can't walk. So when I talk about originality, I'm talking about the spirit in a movie. Money can achieve certain things, but creativity is way more than just budgets to bring in, infuse something of beauty into creativity comes from a much deeper place. And I feel Africa, if I can just say, is a country of contrasts. And it's just got so much energy and so much contrast that it births creativity. If you look at the African elephants, it's the biggest elephant, it's the most aggressive. If you look at the African bee, it's the most aggressive bee in the world. And I think I was talking on the one podcast that this comes back to your question, by the way, when you live in Africa, it's like fighting a cobra. It's a clear and present danger. Sometimes when you live in the first world, it's like fighting a python. One day you wake up and you slowly had the life suffocated out of you. So what I would say is fighting that cobra does spark an energy and a creativity and yes, waffling a little bit. But just to get back to your points, I feel it's a bit of a David versus Goliath story, and that's why God is birthing this movie out of the tip of Africa.
Andrew Firman: Again Phil. Just seeing how God is providing all these areas I think is just so encouraging. And that's one of the reasons why Luke and I love these podcasts is we get to hear, yes stories of what investors and entrepreneurs are doing, but also where God is in that whole process. So as I hear you talk, as I think about, you know, your career pivot, everything you're doing in a unique way with David, I've got to think, man, if I were in that situation, I would have these moments where I think, Lord, I've got this vision for your kingdom, what I want to do, how can I pull it off? Where am I going to find funding? How am I going to do this locally and not in Hollywood? I would love to just hear from you. How have you seen God provide throughout this journey that you've been on?
Phil Cunningham: Yeah. No, that's great. Thank you. The one thing I would say quickly, which is very related to this question, is I'd say the word perspective. So I'm going to give two reasons why I say that and how it helps us through this journey. That's impossible. And the one thing obviously we know often, God, we live by faith, not by sight. So often, God sets us off on a journey where you have to live and work by faith, which I think that's in so many of our experiences. But there's two quick things I want to say that for me have helped me on the journey. The one is next, our studio. If you walked down the beach, there's a four kilometer beach. And as you walk and you pick up one grain of sand and you put it on the tip of your finger, and let's say that represents 70 years. And then you look at that beach and the whole beach is trillions of 70 years. That's eternity. And it's getting perspective like saying, okay, what I'm doing, this is just one grain of sand, but it's for eternity. And I think that helps keep perspective. So you don't get bogged down and think it's all about this life and what I'm doing and it actually frees you have to live bigger and to live with more faith, if I can say that. The other cool thing, I read this poem about a little boy who, you know, we often go to the beach when we little and we build sand castles without dads or moms, and we build the sand castles to fight the tide. But we know in the end that's a great game, but in the end, the tide always wins. And the other thing I'd say about building businesses is like the Roman Empire eventually fell, the Greek empire fell. When we build businesses, they actually like sand castles. They're actually a context for us to get to know our Dad or our Father. So to hold them lightly in one sense, have a lot of fun, build them as best you can, built in big put in feathers, put on shells, and really go for the sand castle. But actually the sand castles, all of context to get to know your father and your dad. And in a day when the tides of time will actually flatten your business empire, you run back into the cottage and you have hot chocolate with your dad. And so as we build something, I think the thing to keep your eyes on is like the biggest thing is my relationship with God. And that's what's amazing what I'm building the sand castle. So having said that, very quickly, trying to make movies out of Africa is super impossible in inverted commas. It seems so at the time. And I just take so much of what David and his songs and what I love about David is his childlike faith and when he approached God. So for me, I took so much out of that. When I'm praying and talking to God, you know that verse which says unless we approach God like little children. I feel like David just would run, jump on God's lap and just pour out his hearts and his songs if you read it. So on our journey, just to answer your question, Andrew, I think just learn to be more honest and more childlike in conversation with God as we progress and realize He is with us. He's our daddy. He's step by step on the journey with us. And we have seen miracles actually, as we walk that even when our faith is down and even when we haven't had faith, he is he has been faithful and really kept us on the journey. Yeah.
Luke Roush: That's powerful, powerful testimony. And I appreciate you sharing it. Phil, I think it's encouragement to many of our listeners who may not be on the other side of that challenge yet and are looking for just encouragement to keep going. So I appreciate you sharing on that. I want to go back to one of the analogies. I'm a big fan of analogies, as my colleagues can attest to. I want to go back to the snake analogy because it's one of my favorite analogies it's ever been used on the podcast. But you know, as you're talking about sort of the cobra and sort of tactical, hand-to-hand known danger and focus that that produces as opposed to, you know, the python. Or, you know, I would also compare that to the frog in the pot of boiling water, kind of one degree at a time. It strikes me that actually as a filmmaker in Africa, you really face both because you're still in the world where sort of the python is the primary adversary, but you're doing it in a market. And so maybe to speak a little bit too tactically, how do you try to maintain sort of salt and light in your work? What are the tactics that you use when fighting the cobra versus fighting the python? And maybe just compare and contrast riff on that for a little bit, if you wouldn't mind.
Phil Cunningham: No, no, of course. The first thing I quickly say that's such a great question and I hadn't actually thought of it, you are right, because we kind of living and producing and creating in Africa. But a lot of our distribution world is the first world when it comes because this is a global film that you're talking about. So the one thing that I'd love to go back to is how impossible that is. And as people, it's good to realize how impossible something is because it puts your faith straight back where it should be, which is on God. And for me, there's an incredible versatility that does not depend on man's desire, effort, but in God's mercy. So my hope is in God's mercy and carry us through this. He is actually the one leading this and he's the shepherd. And, you know, talking about David, just because we've studied so much. If a shepherd came back and one sheep was missing or two sheep were missing, no one said, Oh, stupid sheep. They were like, bad shepherd. So the one thing I've got, faith, is like, God, he says he's the author and perfector of our faith. So I know. And for me, on this movie birth journey, he started it. And so I know he will finish it. And actually, I know how impossible what you've just talked about to navigate that. If I think I can do it on my own, I think that's my first mistake. It's like he is going to walk me through it. And and the other thing is we definitely going to make some missteps on the way and we're going to make some mistakes. But what I've learned along the way is just to trust God's kindness and is leading through it all, and that ultimately He's the one who's kind of actually pulling us towards him. And yeah, but to get to the practical side of that, it is a challenge, but you learn to. I think there's a great book by Scott Peck, which he starts off it's called The Road Less Traveled, and he starts off by saying Life is difficult and it sounds morbid, but it's not at all. It's when as an entrepreneur, whether you live in Africa or in the first world, when you realize life is difficult. So don't shy away from that embraces it because and it's how you deal with difficulty is going to differentiate what you're doing. So the cobra the python as we try and make a movie in Africa. Yes, it's absolutely going to be difficult. That's the fun we've been given is to surf that wave. And, you know, it's not easy to surf waves. You've got to fall over and you got to get up and you've got to surf again. And I'll say one last thing from Winston Churchill, which is he says Success is going from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm. So as we go on this journey, I'd say that's a key to navigating this whole thing is just perseverance. Keep failing, keep going, keep failing, keep going. Yeah.
Andrew Firman: I love that Phil. I think it's a really good quote. I think a really good way to just see again how God's working. One of the things I'd love for you to kind of dream with me on for a second. I know a lot of our questions have been about the here and now and what's going on in the present. But as we think, you know, as I said, five, ten years down the road, what excites me when I think about Africa and why I love investing in Africa is you get this vision of these companies that may not have massive change in their cities tomorrow, but if we can fund the right ones, we really think that this can shape culture in a wonderful way. As we go a few years down the road, what excites you specifically about how the media space can impact Africa? I know that for all of us we could talk about the shows or movies we watched as we were younger and how that impacted us. I'd love for you to just dream a second. If we, as Faith Driven Investors understand this and finance the right movies, what happens? What's your dream here?
Phil Cunningham: Yeah. So I think Africa and globally, but I'm going to focus on Africa, because that was your question. So the thing about stories is that they move hearts. So if it's a sermon or if it's an academic piece of literature or dialog, it can only take you so far. And to answer about Africa, what I'll say very quickly, I want to pull from a story in David just riff of it. So it's the story of David with his mighty men when they went to draw water for him from the well in Bethlehem. And what's amazing about that, he was thirsty. He didn't ask them, but they went, fought their way through a philistine garrison, drew him water and brought him back water. Now, what struck me about that story is how much they must have loved David, because to do an act like that for someone, you've really got to love him. What had he done for them? And just to say, I think that's a lot of about God's heart for us when he captures our heart like that, David quote, does mighty man's heart. They did anything for David, but it wasn't through religion. It wasn't through because they were commanded. It was out of love. So what I feel as I look at the people of Africa, there's this incredible uprising of people whose hearts are ready to respond. And media is such a powerful way to move people's hearts and connect them with God. And that's why I feel we can have a massive impact on Africa. People who are. Yeah, maybe struggling. Because there's a lot of difficulty, but that also makes you more open to what God is doing and saying actually, because you realize you're looking for something, you're more acutely aware of your needs. And that's why I think stories can actually move people in the right direction. If I can say that in Africa. Yeah.
Luke Roush: I want to go ahead and move us into a part of our podcast called The Lightning Round. And these are intended to be a quick series of questions, kind of 30 to 60 seconds max. And it's a way to cover a bunch of ground in a short amount of time. Some of them are fun. Some of them are serious. So I'm going to go ahead and kick off and then I'll have Andrew take the second one or just kind of go back and forth with you. Pepper, Phil so appreciate your good humor on this. So I'll start off as a filmmaker. What is your favorite movie to watch and why?
Phil Cunningham: Okay. Well, that's a good question, but I'll have to jump to Gladiator. And I love it because it's the story is basically the amazing rule in filmmaking or storytelling. Your hero is only as big as the villain or the obstacle that faces the villain. I mean, the hero. So what I love about Gladiator, the villain and the obstacle he faces is massive. But he overcomes it and also is not just overcoming for his own good, it's overcoming it for everyone's good, for the good of the society he lived in. So I just love that story because the story of courage, of perseverance, of losing your life for the good of others, and overcoming a massive obstacle struggle villain. Yes I love gladiator is just a and also it's epics are going back to Paris and my love of doing things in an epic way. It's an epic film and that's why I love it.
Andrew Firman: That's great. That's great Phil. Going to you for a second. What's been your favorite project that you've been able to work on?
Phil Cunningham: So without question, David. We're still working on it. We worked on a lot of projects, but David has been in my heart for 20 years. And why I love him, I quickly want to just give one aspect. And this too. There's so many reasons why it's my favorite project, but one I'll quickly want to say. We know he's an incredible musician and so he wrote half the songs in the Bible, as we know. And I'm saying if they can make a musical The Greatest Showman and P.T. Barnum's life. Imagine the musical element. We should have on our David's movie. So one of the reasons I'm loving working on David is just the authentic music thread that can really flow through his story. And then, of course, I love adventure and his life is super adventurous. So and it points towards God's heart. So I could not think of a more exciting project to be on than David's. Yeah.
Andrew Firman: That's great. And, you know, Phil, going back to the crowdfunding for a second, from your perspective as a filmmaker, what do you think that relationship between the filmmaker and the investor should look like?
Phil Cunningham: Okay, that's a great question. And I think like all investment relationships, it all goes down to relationship, relationship, relationship, which goes down a lot of it to communication, communication, communication. So I think what's really important for filmmakers, whether you're talking about the crowd or just bigger singular investors, is to be super clear upfront, like what the film industry is, what it entails, what the risks are, and actually really try and under-promise so that you can over deliver so clear, clear communication upfront. And I'll give you one example and it is really there's really a good investment in the film industry. So what I'm saying next doesn't take away from that. But I can remember my mum telling me about Hudson Taylor as a missionary and all the other missionary societies when they're talking about China was saying, we''ll, take care of your kids school fees and medical aid. And his battlecry was, I promise you, death, I promise you malaria, but I promise you a chance to preach the gospel. And his missionary society grew strong. So I think one thing with filmmakers is to be super clear upfront with the crowd, what they're getting into, what the risks are. And of course, there's huge upsides potentially, but you just need to be and then on the journey is to be really communicating because we know life has the good, the bad and the ugly. So it's not to try and just feed like what you hope is good to investors is to be super truthful, super transparent. And I think that builds trust and an especially a short answer. But I'll say one more quick thing. I heard a great saying that says integrity is in what you think, what you say and what you do all three liner. And I think if there's integrity between filmmakers and investors, that's what's going to drive a super healthy relationship and get you through tough times because there's always going to be ups and downs in any business journey.
Luke Roush: So I want around just how filmmakers might think more globally when making films. I think there are a couple of markets globally that tend to sort of make films in their own image or for the image of the prevailing culture where they operate. And how can filmmakers think differently?
Phil Cunningham: Yeah, I love that question and if I can quickly break away towards animation and as an aspect of that. So talking to animation really specifically, but I'll come back to a broader comment. So animation has its parts across race, cultural, age and gender barriers better than any other medium. If you look at animated feature films, there's maybe a thousand live action films made a year and maybe 15 animated feature films. But if you look in the box office, you've always find three or four animated feature films in the top ten, which just show you it's a power to get around the globe. So animation is particularly important, you think globally because of the cost of making animation. It is super expensive. It's more like fruit farming says, more like an apple orchard. It's expensive and it's got a long business cycle. So with an apple orchard, you've got to water and fertilize an apple tree for five years and if you stop at any time, you're not going to get apples. If you carry on, you'll get apples and then you'll get apples for 20 years. So the animation industry that's got an incredibly long tale, but as a filmmaking animation sector, you've definitely got to think globally. I'm just talking purely business wise now because the cost of producing it, you will not recoup it. Even in the States, which is the biggest domestic markets, you still need to think globally to really recoup businesswise from an animated feature film. What I love about animation from a guideed storytelling point of view is it's going to get around the globe nationally if you do it right from a live action point of view. I think it's really important to think globally as well. There is definitely room for local content without question, because some local content really has a connection that a global piece of work content. So I think there's definitely space for both. But as a filmmaker, the themes of storytelling, I feel if you get those rights, your story will translate globally. And in my heart is for global stories because I really would love people sitting in China, in Asia, in South America to all be benefiting from a story and not just one small market. Yeah.
Luke Roush: And just in terms of, you know, we know film financing can be complex for investors. How do you think about films as an investment class? And just what counsel would you give to investors who are listening to this podcast and wondering, Gosh, does the Lord want me to do something in this area with the wealth that He's entrusted to me?
Phil Cunningham: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the first thing I'd say, like in any industry, there's going to be good investment and bad investment. So I'll come back to the industry as a whole. But what I'd say trumps the industry you're looking at investing into is who you're investing into. This is my perspective on investing. Let's take Steve Jobs, for example. We know what he did in Apple and when he got involved in Pixar. We know what happened with Pixar as an animated company. It just really boomed. So if you investing in Apple or Pixar, actually, you are investing in Steve Jobs and his vision and who he was and what he was doing. And Michael Dell, for example, if he hadn't been successful in computers, I'm sure whatever you've got and he would have been successful end. So I think as an investor, the first thing is to stop and look at who are you investing in and what is your faith in them to actually deliver in the film industry. Then the film industry as a whole is an incredible industry in the sense of it is higher risk than most industries. But in the upside, which we know that investment, it's also got potentially much higher return as well. So I think if you walk in with your eyes open, understanding the risks and understanding what you're getting into, there are some incredible investment opportunities in the film industry. I'm talking purely financially, never mind impact investment. But yeah, so the industry is, I would say as a general comment, it's higher risk, higher return as a general comments. But certainly it's like putting your money into a slot machine and hoping it comes out the other side. It's not that wild or that risky. Yeah.
Luke Roush: Thanks for that answer Phil.
Andrew Firman: Well Phil. It really has been just wonderful having you with us today and hearing what you're working on, hearing how God's work in your life. And we really like to close each episode by turning it over to you for a second and just hearing what you feel like God's teaching you right now. What have you found in God's Word that stuck out to you recently? What's an aspect of God's character that you meditating on would just love to hear a little bit from you before we close out.
Phil Cunningham: Thank you so much. I think the thing I would like to share is actually just looking at David's life, Joseph's life and Moses' life. There was a dream, there was an anointing and there was a calling. And each of those were followed by really difficult times. So Joseph had this amazing dream, and then he was sold into slavery and into prison, and then eventually his dreams actually were fulfilled. Moses had this amazing calling to free his people. He trusted his own strength. It goes south, and then he's in the desert for 40 years, you know, David is anointed as king, and then he ends up in the wilderness for seven years. And I was just processing that with God and saying, you know, what is going on? And that and the thing that I got out of it, which I have experienced in my own life and I really like to encourage, particularly as anyone younger listening, if God has given you a dream, and anointing or calling and then you had a desert period or a difficult period, what's going on there? I think is it God is it's the circumcision of your heart. So it's not a God. God will follow through on that dream with that anointing, but pure gold comes out of like a really hot furnace, and God and his kindness is going through the circumcision of the heart, like really going deep with humility. And so I found it on my 20 year journey. I started off with a very clear sense of calling and anointing in the film industry and in some really difficult times reaching the stage in my life and really thankful for those difficult times because I realized God has worked deep and in His kindness. He's actually been circumcising my heart so that I'm in it for the right reasons at a deep level. And I'll just say the film industry, particularly Andreas, got a challenge because it's got fame and fortune in it. And that's quite a lethal combination for people, the pride of life, because a lot of people get caught up just with loving money and that's went out of business. But in the movie industry and in the arts, you often are getting this incredibly lethal combination of fame and fortune. So if people are starting on this industry, God is going to definitely have to work in your hearts to just make sure your foundations are good, and that's going to come through hard times. And so that's one thing I've been just processing and linked to that as John 6:29, which ultimately what is our work? The disciples asking Jesus, what is the work of God? And He says, The work of God is us to believe in the one he sent. And I really feel God saying to me, Phil, that's your work is to believe in me as your good shepherd, as your provider, as your guide that's actually your work. And coming out of my 20 years, I'm like, okay, that's amazingly fun and that yoke is easy and that burden is light to believe in somebody who's so awesome and also so powerful at the same time. Yeah.
Luke Roush: Phil, that's a great word for our audience and we are grateful for you bestowing a lot of wisdom on us today. So. Eagles, two rabbits, cobras, pythons, the David Musical. And then just the refiners fire. And how Lord uses adversity to be able to harden our resolve and to prepare us for the mission that he has us on. Thank you for taking time with us today. We are grateful for you and Andrew. Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to our co-host here. Grateful to be with you. Thank Phil
Phil Cunningham: Thank you so much. And really, really appreciate you guys having me on the podcast. Thank you so much. It's a privilege.