Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the faith driven entrepreneur podcast, William we’re here with our guest, James Cham in the house, a fellow Californian. But you are broadcasting this in from Washington, D.C., where you’re going to talk about the subject matter that we’ve brought you to talk about. And this is building, William, on some work we’ve done recently about artificial intelligence. And two nights ago we did an event for Inklings. Inklings. As a group, we get together every month, month and a half out here. James Cham has been added a bunch of folks talking about Christians in Web3. What is it looks like for Christians in blockchain? What does it look like for Christians in artificial intelligence obviously with chatGPT there’s a lot of talk to it. But William, correct me if I’m wrong, but the precipitating event for today, but the origination, the genesis for today’s podcast comes from a panel you heard James talk at at the Praxis event. Tell us more about that.

William Norvell: Yeah. So Praxis, another great friend of the movement, as everyone knows, had their redemptive Imagination summit that they call it up in Napa, California, a few weeks ago. And you know, this year there was a shocking lack of cryptocurrency panels and a shocking increase in AI panels. I mean, I’m if I could set people up to stick around for the next 40 minutes, I leaned over. I was actually sitting next to our other fearless leader Justin Forman. I said, We’re going to get this on the podcast fast. This is like the most at the moment forward thinking on not only where AI was going to go, but what should we be thinking about as believers? What shouldn’t we be thinking about? What should we be thinking about with our children? What should we be scared of with our children? Our Some of our children may be different and some should lean in to learning about this now, and some maybe should be held back from that first season. So I think it spanned just an incredible view of what God would have for this space, how we should thoughtfully think about it, and how, of course, we shouldn’t be scared of a revolution that’s coming. And thoughtful Christians need to be a part of it, or we’re going to lose the battle by abandoned the playing field. So with that, James, welcome.

James Cham: It’s good to see you guys.

Henry Kaestner: So, James, I want to ask you what is motivating the urgency and excitement around AI? Why is everybody talking about it now? And we’ll talk more about why Christians should care, but why is this all the rage now? Why are there so many panels and everybody is talking about AI, the space you’ve been in for a long time, What makes everybody focus on it now?

James Cham: You know, the great A.I. demos have always been with us since like the sixties. There’s was great demonstrations in which it’ll do this thing or that thing and even, you know, sort of as recently as like five years ago or two years ago, I’d show some amazing demo of some amazing product that will do this sort of that magical thing. And then someone would say to me, Hey, can I use this? Can I try this? I say, Well, give me a few moments. I need to prep the data. I need to do this and that. I need to change this, you know, and then give me a couple of weeks and you’ll be able actually try this out. And it might or might not work. And what’s different about now is that in the last year and then in the last six months, there have been a series of investment bets the actually paid off such that now we’re at a point where like everyone and anyone is able to use the most advanced large language models in a way that like used to be cloistered inside Google or clustered inside Facebook where only the smartest people in the world, we’re able to play with it and fiddle with it. And now, in part because of a series of both business decisions and technical advancements, this is available to anyone. And that suddenly means that these things that were theoretical questions became real opportunities. And that has implications not just for business, but also for the way that we think about faith.

Henry Kaestner: So what are some of those large language models that have now made their way out into the public? Just give an overview. I sense that a number of our listeners know what they are. Some of them might not. What is that? How is that accessible now for everybody?

James Cham: So right now it’s most accessible either through a set of services from Google or Microsoft or from Openai. And let me just take a step back to describe sort of like one version of the history of AI, which is what is AI. AI is a dream, AI is a dream that the computers will be able to do things that humans will be able to do in terms of thinking. And what’s interesting about that dream is that along the way, over the last since like basically the sixties, we’ve started to be able to do things with computers that like humans that would be difficult. And each step along the way we’ve said, Oh, this is not quite A.I., this is not quite A.I.. You know, the fact that you can beat someone in chess, that’s impressive, but it’s not quite AI. And then we’re at this point now where these large language models are flexible enough and open ended enough that for the first time, a lot of even the best practitioners are saying to themselves, Oh my goodness, this might mean that we’re close to true artificial intelligience. And this only happens because of a series of slightly crazy technical miracles. And let me just describe a few of them. Right? So one of the first ones is this idea that we’re able to represent ideas in sort of super high dimensional space that you can sort of like get some idea and the set of statistical techniques that don’t really matter right now. You’re able to represented as math, right? And that idea that you can represent as math and then do math against it suddenly meant that you can manipulate them in interesting ways. So that’s the first miracle. So that’s like one miracle. The other miracle that sort of has been surprising to everyone is then you’re able to take like sort of, you know, all of the Web, compress it down into these models and then you’re able to like, do a whole series of queries and chats against them. And then the surprising thing about that is that that will actually end up creating coherent results. So that’s the first thing you saw, but that didn’t really work that well. The thing that worked really well was when you asked the models to explain their thinking step by step, and suddenly it meant that like, you know, sort of you ask it some physics problem and it wouldn’t answer correctly, and then you’d say, to it. Okay, answer this physics problem and describe it step by step. And suddenly, like for the first time, it would start answering things much more precisely. And this was sort of shocking and confusing to a bunch of sort of people in the industry because all of their historical work around thinking about natural language processing and how people talk like that was thrown out the window by just saying, we’re going to process a bunch of text compressor down. Are we getting too technical? I feel like I’m taking you down the wrong.

William Norvell: Yeah, well, I love it. I think we needed to go there. And now. Yeah, let’s take a step back up. Right. And so I think one of the things that was really intriguing is you talked about how and no point in human history, for the most part, has a technology, this advance been able to be utilized by so many people so quickly? Right. And how that’s going to have I mean, I mean, you can just go on Twitter or LinkedIn. I mean, there are Hindu A.I. companies born a day that can build you a PowerPoint, build your website. I mean, people are taking this technology and building on it. You know, like a developer tools, right? Like, it’s amazing. And so I’m curious as you look out, I mean, I’m sure it’ll be in the interim, But, you know, let’s bring it into this conversation. You’re an investor for a living, right? You invest in venture capital. So how do you think about the space from Bloomberg Beta perspective and where you think, you know, let’s do now, you know, soon and later? Right. What do you feel like the most impressive uses are now? What do you think’s coming soon and what do you think? Hey, people are getting ahead of themselves. That’s still a ways out before that type of technology is going to be able to exist.

James Cham: Mm hmm. Okay. So the thing that is now is that most machine learning used to be built for very purpose built reasons. Right? That a lot of cases you just have to do a lot of work to get it trained to answer a question. Exactly right. And now for the first time, it’s extraordinarily flexible, and that’s disorienting to most people. And so that flexibility means that you can now ask relatively open ended questions and sort of discover sort of what the model knows or doesn’t know. And then now in terms of like short term, what’s available to it, you know, I think there are a lot of startups that are making a lot of money very quickly because they found a specific niche, right, that they figured out, oh, I can create text for this thing or that thing and I can sell it for 20 bucks and it cost me two bucks to generate and sort of like that sort of opportunities right here, right now. There’s also a whole set of like opportunities around wrapping these models with agency where they can actually then affect the world. Right. And then that sort of thing, which basically now you’ve got these models going around and sort of like browsing a website or touching this or that. Like that’s clearly the next thing. Right after having chatGPT, the next natural thing everyone wants, right, is that ability to have these things actually do something. And that part, it’s a little less clear, right? It’s a little less clear what it’s good at and bad at. And that’s sort of the thing that’s happening right now in real time that out in Silicon Valley right now, you’ve got like 50 different people, 50 different teams trying to figure out exactly when does this model work and when doesn’t it work, when it tries to click on a website or browse this or solve this problem. But that interaction with first the digital world and then that interaction to the rest of the world, that’s clearly the thing that’s just out there. And to be honest, a little scary.

William Norvell: In this would be thinking about a practical example that may not be a sexy example. This would be like me go to ChatGPT saying, Hey, I need to take a flight to Dallas. Right? I’ve got an off site in Dallas coming up in a few weeks and I need to book an Airbnb, booked dinner reservations on Monday and Tuesday, booked my flights and send the itinerary to so-and-so. And is that a query that’s going to be possible here in the near future? Words like, Oh yeah, that be taken care of.

James Cham: That’s the sort of thing that feels like it’s right around the corner and right now works very well in demos and almost works well enough that people are going to roll out. And so this is the other part of it, which is like it is a information diffusion of knowledge story where we live in a world where everything is so connected that, you know, people are able to play all over the world and thus try these technologies out and see what works and doesn’t work and then tweet about it like in the afternoon. And that cycle of innovation and try things is like both really exciting and terrifying, right? Because it does mean that there’s much more room for mischief now than there was before. And sort of our old illusions of being able to control the technology sort of thrown out the window.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us more about that. Tell us more to the some of the things that you’re it’s like, oh, my goodness, you know, this could happen in I mean, in some of this stuff. I got to tell you, as a dad or just a human being, I get really worried about what this means for the adult entertainment business and just, you know, what this ends up being in terms of just taking people down, just really, really bad places. But what are some of the other things that you look at and say, wow, the emergence of this is going to be this is the type of mischief that can happen or maybe just riff on that a little bit.

James Cham: Yeah, I mean, I think here are a couple interesting angles. So in part because these models are so flexible and because their programs are so consistent, they can be much more polite on a consistent basis or much more persuasive on a consistent basis than say, I will if I didn’t have enough coffee in the morning. And so that creates a full set of interesting opportunities. And in part because they’re cheaper to run than like, let’s say talking to me, you can end up replacing humans in conversation in all sorts of interesting, both good and bad ways. And now what’s interesting, though, is that one way to think about it is to think about it from the point of view of a consumer in which the consumer maybe gets fooled into having a relationship with what is essentially just a big bunch of numbers. Right? So that’s one side. But the flip side, which I think is much more relevant to entrepreneurs and much more relevant to people building stuff is like the actual danger of these models and of AI right now is it gives you a chance to pretend that you’re not responsible, that you could build this system that does great mischief, and then you will say, Oh no, it wasn’t me, it was the model that did it right. And I think that that sort of like avoidance of responsibility is actually going to be the big, big temptation for entrepreneurs. And that is the place where I think Christians have a lot of wisdom, right, where Christians will be able to say a lot of smart things about the responsibility we have when we create something and both for good and for evil.

William Norvell: Yeah, it’s fascinating. It reminds me. So my wife and I went back and started watching the show called Person of Interest. I don’t think I ever heard of it. Jim Caviezel was the star who, of course, played Jesus in The Passion as well. And it’s ten years ago. But it goes through the whole concept of the show is this brilliant engineer built in artificial intelligence that, of course, national security wanted to buy. Right? Because they could predict national security threats and it would pop out who’s relevant. And they’re a threat to national security. And the show takes a turn because turns out there’s irrelevant numbers as well. The system also finds people that are going to get mugged on the street, and that’s what the show goes off. And guys, But in the context of that, they talk deeply about the decisions he made while building the system. And for instance, one of the big decisions he made is ten years old. Sorry if I’m ruining it is it erased its memory every night and how that had to be true, or else it would learn at a speed that eventually, like he couldn’t control it anymore. Right. But they go so deep into these deep. And then there’s a competing A.I., of course, that comes along. That’s evil. And that’s a fun story. I think You talked a little bit about national security last time I heard you talk, and I was curious for you to take that direction and say, you know, as an example, you could build something great that can be good, that can be used for very much not good things.

James Cham: I mean, I think so. These models, right, are going to be extremely flexible, extremely persistent. And they will do things that we will consider thinking. They will have ideas that are going to be similar to consciousness. And why does that happen or how does that happen? We’re not totally sure. But one way to think about it is that they’re able to find structure and analogies that our brains sort of like implicitly do, and it’s now doing that explicitly through math. And so in that case, it might be able to do things that look creative, right? And it might also be able to do things that end up becoming very, very. But because they’re machines, they’re much more persistent than we will be. And so, for example, your ability to hack into some system, you know, like, I don’t know, I might know 15 techniques to hack into some system. I might get bored because I kind of want to read Twitter or there’s a basketball game going on. I get distracted. But these models will be very persistent and they will go through every single possible security hole and find every single possible vulnerability and take advantage of that in a way that no human will and those sorts of sort of little angles and opportunities I think are quite scary. And I think there’s a good reason why a lot of the government and governments all over the world are concerned about this. But I’d say that the hard part there is like and my thinking has evolved on this. I used to think that the solution might be some newfangled regulation. I now think that in some ways the right solution are very, very old principles around What are you responsible for? You benefit. Are you responsible for like the upside and downside of something? You know, sort of who’s liable and all those questions. And some of these are super old and super straightforward. So that’s one piece. And I think the other piece that’s interesting about this is that I think a lot of regulators and a lot of people are pursuing A.I. because they’re hopeful and optimistic, are utopian in their thinking. And I think it’s very, very clear from, you know, all of history and certainly in the Bible, right, that sort of tools are flawed. And part especially tools are created in our image because we are flawed, right. Because of original sin. And I think that realizing that these models will never be perfect, that these models will always be tragically, flawed, the same way that we are, like, that’s going to be an important truth and something that we’ll always have to think about. And that’s a wisdom that we as Christians and a perspective that we as Christians to provide that I think is unique and helpful.

William Norvell: And so where is that? So where? So as you think about a believer investing in the space, coming to the space and talking to entrepreneurs who may be thinking about building in the space, I mean, I think that is yes, I mean, these models, I assume, were always going to be a factor of us, right? I mean, since you’re in DC, you know, there was a political one, right, where it’s like ChatGPT basically won’t say any nice things about Trump, but will say nice things about Biden. Basically, like if you asked it, like, tell me, like great qualities and like, well, you know, there’s people that built this thing, right? There is bias built in right to whoever. And, you know, there could be bias built in the other way where somebody wouldn’t say anything nice about Biden either. Right. But I’m just curious where and how should a Christian think about, you know, do you need to build something new? Does it need to be on its own? Can you influence from inside a large organization that’s already working on this? And just what is the posture to make it a biblical worldview or.

James Cham: Yeah, there are a couple of angles I think built into that. One of them is the sense that as these models get bigger, they do seem like they get smarter and more interesting. But the other part about it is that there’s a bit of a power law, right? That to build the next version, sometimes it’s going to be like 10 to 100 X more expensive. And so that math around it does end up meaning that it’s critical that Christians are in some of the biggest companies in the world to influence and think through what this actually might mean. So I think that’s one part. The second part is that you notice that as you talked about chatgpt, and I think this is a little bit of a marketing thing, there is a temptation to treat it as if it is the God model, right? As is. Oh, you know, if only we can influence our great God chatgpt, then our lives would be better. And I think that’s the other temptation, right? That’s the temptation of treating it like an idol. And I think that’s one of the sort of there’s one temptation, which is to say, let’s ignore it and run away from it like a […]. And then there’s the other temptation was to say, you know what? Actually this thing is God, right? Rather than a sub creation made by humans. And the moment we treat it like God, then we have a whole set of other problems.

William Norvell: Okay, So let’s go a layer deeper into that. So, you know, I remember we had Frank Chin on a while ago, and I remember he talked about some of that. It’s like, hey, some things humans weren’t made to do. It’s part of the toil. I mean, I think we were talking about autonomous driving at the time, and he said, you know, look, all the truck drivers are upset, but like, think about that job. That’s not a human flourishing job. You’re away from your family, you’re driving all day. It’s stressful on your body like this is a good thing for humanity, actually. Now we need to help those people find new jobs and retrain them. But that job in and of itself, Frank was arguing, is. Not a human flourishing job. And so I’m curious, from an artificial intelligence standpoint, are there certain task? Is the people scared, of course, that we can talk about the doomsday Terminator two scenario at some point, but is this actually a thing we should embrace because it’s going to make us more human? Is there an argument for that that we get more humanity out of this?

James Cham: Hmm. You know, this goes back in some ways to praxis, which is that there are a set of decisions that we can make about the kinds of businesses that we want to support and the kinds of businesses that could flourish. So that’s the first part, which is it is a decision made by people around what kind of businesses we’re going to allow. That’s the first part. But the second part is like I will admit that like I have an essentially tragic view of work and of humanity, which is that it’s flawed. We’re all post fall. We try the best we can. I think that there are a whole set of jobs that are actually I actually honor truck drivers. I think it’s a great job. I think it’s really important. I think it will fulfill a bunch of important things for people. And, you know, like, I don’t know, I compare this to sort of my ancestors who were either toiling in the field, some rice field, or sometimes maybe like running money from one place to another, right. Doing things that were like. And so I feel like our question of like what is a good, fulfilling job is so contextual, right? And is so much based on like sort of our current conception. I don’t know. My great grandfather, you know, was away for like nine months out of the year in order to like, go from one place to another. Right? And that was still seen as a good job. So that’s one piece, right? But is just to say that, like, I think jobs are going to be tough and it’s super contextual. And then the other part that I’d say is like it is also important to be very, very cold hearted as we think about these models right now and the economic moment we sit in, which is to say that like if you thought about like the last big policy decision the United States made around globalization, the promise that we made to like citizens was globalized. Things will be cheaper. And by the way, you will benefit from the fact that things are cheaper and we will take care of you. And be honest, both Republicans and Democrats have not done that, in part because there was a moment where workers had a chance to influence sort of a whole set of decisions and in part because maybe you trust the Democrats a little too much, or maybe you trusted your labor union leaders a little too much. That promise was not fulfilled. And we are actually right now in a very, very similar moment where there is a lot of everyone smells the benefit and all the great things that these models can do. And at the same time, there’s a great bargain to be made between sort of all the folks who are working in sort of a bunch of jobs that might be displaced. And I think like that bargain is an entirely political thing that needs to be coldhearted rather than utopian or blinded by sort of my various startup dreams.

William Norvell: So let’s get a practical questions here. If you were an ex job, you would be wildly scared of this technology taking over your job because that’s something and all the headlines, of course, always come out with, you know, technology is always going to take all the jobs, right? Just different versions of it. I’m curious from your perspective, if you were. So let’s talk about kids in college. Henry’s got two boys in college and one coming up soon. What should or shouldn’t they study? Right? Yeah.

James Cham: White collar jobs that require people to be polite actually are at great risk that, you know, sort of there was a time ten, 20 years ago where everyone said, oh, the truck driver is going to be in trouble, or like the guy who the farmer’s going to be in trouble. That’s not really the risk here. The really the real risk and all these sort of these sort of folks like me playing with spreadsheets and emails and trying to be polite to people and talk to them and persuade them in some consistent way. And so there’s a whole set of white collar jobs that are going to be different. So I’m giving a presentation in a few minutes to like some congressional staffers. And I have this one slide of this huge floor of an insurance building. It comes out of like the movie The Apartment from the Sixties, and you had desks of people who would like have a little calculator, a little hand calculator, crank some number out, take the slip, pass it over to another desk. And what’s interesting about that work, which was like entire floors of buildings, is like that’s basically a spreadsheet that those hundreds of people on the floor were replaced by a single spreadsheet. And that’s on the one hand, terrifying, right? And it means great dislocation. But on the other hand, it’s also true that we’ve been okay, that if you look at sort of like life from the fifties on to the nineties, it turned out that like those dislocations end up being okay and being managed. But that’s like entirely, I think, a political question and less like a fit of the world question.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to take this in a slightly different direction. I just am fascinated by this and it’s less around how we invest and it’s less maybe around some of the innovations that come from entrepreneurs in the business, which is so much of our audience. But it’s more. But the one thing that unites most listen to the podcast, and that is our belief that there is a truth, that there is absolute truth. It’s not relative. You can point back to God’s Word as immutable. And, you know, as you get ready to talk to his congressional staffers, I mean, this is a nation under God. I wonder if there’s an opportunity for there to be this kind of operating. Well, it’s an operating system of which all of a brain of all AI sits on, which is every type of answer that comes out of this query that I might have of a chatGPT has some sort of biblical foundation to it. And so that I am like, for instance, you know, we invest in faith driven entrerpreneur, faith driven entrepreneur is the common element of this podcast, and there’s some sort of this belief that the thing that unites us all is to realize that there’s there real mistakes made in Second Chronicles, where the Good Kings of Judah didn’t see God out. And there’s real problems with sin in this area and pride and what the wisdom that comes from proverbs and psalms, etc., Can any you that like a coded in to this operating system in the chatGPT. So the answers you come out are actually informed by two or 3000 years of truth. Now somebody might say, well, gosh, that’s too myopic. It’s just Christian and or we take one nation under God. It wasn’t just a Christian, God, whatever, but 99% of Americans believe in God. It’s only 1% that are really atheistic. And the general concept that there is a God and that America is unique and is one nation under God is still believed in by the majority of the people in the marketplace. Is it possible that there could be one type of truth? There kind of is kind of coded in to all of these things so we can then say, Well, I actually can’t go that far off the rails because at the root code of all of this comes from Scripture.

James Cham: I think that’s partly a commercial question, right? I think it’s important not to confuse chatGPT and the work that open AI to all the really impressive good work that open AI is doing and building their own model with all the models that are potentially available. Right. It’s possible that we live in a world where opening AI end up being the only people who are able to build advanced models. But if that happened, that only really happened because of regulation. Because the truth is right now there are enough people chasing them, enough people building their own versions of models using the same set of techniques. And so my guess is that, you know, we’ll live in a world where there are a number of providers of very big models, and then your ability to either fine tune it or wrap around it, questions like, Oh, here’s your answer now. Like how does this reflect various biblical values? And then we answer this question around how it answers various biblical values like that could be done right? Sort of the other weird miracle around like these large language models is that they’re very good at self-reflection, that you can give it. You can say to it, hey, you know, answer this question, and then you can ask it, Hey, is this question biblical? Is this answer biblical? And then you could ask again, Hey, was this answer really biblical? And AI actually come up with a better answer, right? So those sorts of things you can do and they aren’t necessarily bounded into like one specific model.

Henry Kaestner: That’s interesting, so like there’s the web, and I don’t know as much about this as I speak to it, but there’s the web and then there’s the dark web. And I wonder if there’s like the chatGPT that’s informed by the world’s great religions, of which are commonalities. And so that any answer, any query, any type of pontification or reflection or theory or opinion that’s expressed by the chatGPT, undergirded by the world’s great religions comes out with something. And then anything that would be sinister, not based on these commonly accepted things would be part of like the darkGPT. And people would kind of know like, Hey, this is the origination and it this AI is a part of this overall code that has this kind of underbelly. And so it could never, ever convince me to kill somebody or it can never encourage me to lie, bear false witness. It can never encourage me to do any type of activity that would have to do with adultery or whatever, things like that.

James Cham: And so let me make one really important distinction, which is chatGPT is an application that is built by Openai. So it’s like one very specific application that’s built on top of a very big model that openai I spent a bunch of money in order to get it to work right? But there’ll be other people who spent a bunch of money to build models. And also the other slightly crazy thing about like these models is, you know, what are they really? Are they really answering the question or are they just trying to imitate what other people have done, what other people have written? And so in some ways, you know, they. Really are just trying the best they can to like generate text that matches something you tell it to do. And so you I think folks apply. Try this. One of the crazy things you can do is you can say, Hey, pretend that you are a Christian who lives in San Diego, who really likes baseball, and then answer the question in this way. Or you can say, pretend that you are a Christian who really likes socialism and answer the question this way include references to the Bible. And so these models will try the best they can in order to fulfill the sort of setup that you gave it. And so in some ways, that sort of thing is available right now, and it’s more a question of commercial adoption and sort of the economics of it than it is a question of whether it’s technically doable.

Henry Kaestner: So is it right to encourage and challenged the listeners this podcast about how might you innovate on top of open air with a biblical strain so that a consumer, you know, parents of three children and say, I’m actually going to go ahead and I’m going to buy into and pay a subscription so that my kids have questions about life’s big problems or about history or something like that, that it’s done through a biblical worldview, that AI becomes part of their teacher. And when they ask these questions that I can answer at home about evolution or any type of chemistry or anything like that, that I can have the screen that everything they ever ask of this thing is informed by a biblical worldview because that’s actually programed in the system. Kind of like what I have seen guys or any one of a number of different types of pay for services that have been screen out negative stuff. This could actually be a service that do there’s a positive screen.

James Cham: I mean, you could do that right now. And like the hard part with it is you could basically sprinkle that in the beginning of any query, the chatGPT and it’ll do a pretty good job. And then whether you wanted to make that a separate application or a separate business, that’s a good question. But you can literally go to chatGPT right now and say, pretend that you are a very thoughtful sort of evangelist who takes the Bible seriously and, you know, just went to Africa and is based in Silicon Valley, you know, and then answer this question and it’ll do an okay job. And then what even crazier is like, you can provide lots and lots of answers that, you know, that person gave and they use that as examples that it can then use to generate, you know, possible future answers.

William Norvell: It’s not going to test out. I’m going to see chatGPT 2021, but we got enough podcast out there. I’m going to see if I can train somebody to answer questions like Henry or Rusty. I think we should try that.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. Well, that’s absolutely a thought that based on what James just said and the interplay that we’ve had thus far, there are infinitely better questions that I could have asked along the way that a chatGPT is like, okay, James Cham just said this on the podcast. What should I ask as a follow up? I’m sure Chat GPT right now could come up with 100 better questions than the ones that I asked.

James Cham: And I think the opportunity. So on the one hand, like that’s going to be magical and it’ll seem so different from anything we’ve ever seen before. But in other ways it’s not different at all. Remember that sort of relationship with the Henry Bot in some ways is very similar to like your relationship to Billy Graham or David Letterman, which is say it is a relationship not with the actual person but with an image of the person. Right? And those are the things in sociology would be called parasocial relationships. And they can be very, very helpful. And they do great good until they become idolatrous. and then that sort of temptation is as old as the Bible, right? That the chance for us to treat something that is a parasocial relationship or relationship with a king who doesn’t really know us and worship him or our ability to sort of like have a relationship with like some mountain and then worship the mountain. Right? That temptation is going to be the thing that we’re going to struggle with a lot more in new and interesting ways.

William Norvell: Yeah, that’s good because that’s real. You know, we just did obviously a tribute podcast to Tim Keller, and I feel like that, you know, he’s had a big influence on my life and I’ve probably shaken his hand twice. Right. But the amount of like, did I answer questions? You know, here’s kind of what Tim Keller would say about that, right? Even though I don’t really have a personal relationship with him, like, yeah, that’s been around for a while. You read enough books by someone and you watching it. I mean, I’ve listened to a hundred sermons from him and read 20 of his books. Like, I can kind of like, here’s kind of what he would say to that.

James Cham: That’s right. And then the interesting thing then as Christians is to have a distinction between those parasocial relationships and sort of the relationship with someone who seems like would be distant and seems like it would be all powerful and all knowing and yet actually has a relationship with us, right? Because our relationship with Tim Keller might be parasocial, but our relationship with Jesus is actually social, right? That actually, like we actually have a relationship with him and an understanding. That distinction I think, gives us room to think about these questions in a way that ends up being a little bit easier than it is for non-Christians because we’ve got a model like not a machine learning model, but so we have an example of what it’s like to have an actual relationship with someone versus having that sort of Parasocial relationship was important and again, beneficial, but very different than. Having a relationship with Jesus.

William Norvell: James is a company in here. You know, we get along, foreigners listening. I’m one of them. I’m curious to hear your answer here. What should we be folding into our business? How should we be taking some of these tools, if at all? Right. I assume the answer is yes to some degree. Like, what should I be doing? I’m going to pitch you in 12 months. Right? Like, what if I haven’t done X? Are you going to be like, wow. Like, man, you got to, like, get with the times. Like, you got to. And is that statement even true? Does everyone need to be using some of these tools in their business? Is that advantageous to build a better growing business?

James Cham: You know, there are some point in maybe 1997 when people started building web applications and they didn’t have names for it yet. Right. They didn’t really know how to describe it. Everyone sort of thought Yahoo! Was the dominant thing and maybe those like we thought we’d all buy Oracle applications that were served through some Web server. And we’re sort of at that point, we’re sort of at the point where it’s clear something’s working and exactly how it’s going to work or exactly what’s to be the dominant business model. All of those questions are unclear. And so if I’m you I’m trying to figure that out right now that there’s a little bit of a race right now to figure out what are these models really, really good at and what’s going to be the thing that, as it turns out, to be really, really valuable. So if we use our web example from like the late nineties, early 2000, you know, you talked to some senior executive Yahoo! Who was the dominant company at that point. And if you told them, the most important asset you have is shared address books. They’d be like, That’s dumb. Address books is like a feature. And if you told them that, like that part that would search through the web turned out to be the most valuable part. They’d be like, That’s dumb. That’s just a feature of our portal. But of course, it turned out that Google, which indexed the web and then became like the stopping point for everyone else, turned out to be incredibly valuable. And that shared contact list is basically social. Right. And it turned out that like that turned out to be the really, really valuable thing. And so we’re still at a point where we don’t really know what’s going to be the durably valuable thing. And so we’re all playing around right now. And so if I’m an entrepreneur, I’m at least devoting, you know, sort of a few hours a day just trying to figure out the outlines of what’s possible right now.

William Norvell: That’s good. That’s good

Henry Kaestner: Wow, that’s awesome. So that is a great takeaway. Spending some concerted time thinking through this, reading up on it, because it does feel like this is a marketplace changing type of event and it’s a big deal. There’s going to be opportunities for great innovation, for inclusion in your business. And we need to be able to have answers about how this impacts our life. And so many of us are parents and we need to be thinking through this. And as we do that, I think that there’s going to be some great innovations and Lord willing, we’ll figure out what this means for translating the Bible and contextualizing the Bible into different languages and our languages, an infinite number of great applications, because it feels like this is a technology like so many others that could be used for good or for bad. And so Christ followers need to not bury their heads in the sand and just like, wow, this is this scares me. So we’re going to go away and we’re just going to be real conservative and we’re to, you know, go back and live on farms and not use phones. But we actually need to lean into this and get involved and get engaged and be serious because everybody else’s.

James Cham: Yeah, I think there are a few angles on that. So one is, you know, the biggest bargain in the world right now is 20 bucks a month to subscribe to chatGPT plus like I make no money, I have no financial interest in open AI. But I would do that. And you know how you said this is the time to read about it? This is probably the time to read about it. This is part time to read it and try it. Because the weird thing about now is that you literally can go on right now and you could get the capabilities that used to only be available to the smartest, smallest set of people inside Google. Right? And you suddenly now can play with these things and figure it out faster than they can what’s possible. So that’s one piece. I think the question that you asked about kids is just so, so important. And in some ways, we are really, really lucky because we’ve already experienced what the phone transition looks like, Right. And there’s a way in which we as parents can have a proper amount of skepticism about what works and doesn’t work. Right. That like if you were to go to 2010 and sort of think about like the phone and how your kids should think about the phone, right. You might have thought, well, this is so different from the web. It’s so different. But now we actually have specific examples, our head about what happens when these things become super, super accessible and what it means for folks to go astray and what it means for someone to be totally consumed by something. Right. And all those examples we can think about because they happened to us, right? And then we could be wiser about how we end up thinking about this for our kids.

William Norvell: It’s so good. You’ve been here before, so you know, we’re. We’re going to close. We would love to hear where God’s speaking to you today and whether that’s about AI or not. There’s a lot of other fun things he talks to us about. Where in his world are you today? And you know, what’s he telling you from his scripture and what’s coming alive to you in a new way?

James Cham: You know, the thing that has stuck with me for the last few years is this idea of old men dreaming dreams of revival. And I think that that continues to animate me and excite me, that I think that we’re at a time of great uncertainty, both from a technology point of view, but also from like be honest, like our position in the world as Americans. And I think it’s at those times of uncertainty where there’s the best chance of revival because suddenly we can’t rely on all the normal answers. Right? The things that have worked for us since, at least like, I don’t know, the mid eighties, they’re not working anymore. Right. And so this means that there’s a whole set of folks who are open to like God working in surprising ways. And I find that really encouraging. And so that’s the thing that I pray for and sort of try to dream these dreams and hope that young men and women do amazing things. And and that’s probably what excites me the most right now.

William Norvell: Amen.

Henry Kaestner: Amen, indeed. Fascinating.

William Norvell: Wait, I got something we’re going to finish with. I got something to finish with, so I just want to chatGPT while you’re here. And I told him to pretend that he’s Henry Kaestner, the host of faith driven entrepreneur podcast, co-founder of bandwith.com and Elder of the PCA church. I’d like to ask you some business questions. What are the three most important things to do as you build your business? According to Henry Kaestner AI, one faith integration pastor is a strong advocate for peace driven entrepreneurship. He believes one’s faith should not be separated from the work, but rather integrated into every aspect of it. People and culture employees are the backbone of any business, and Kaestner emphasized the importance of treating employees while fostering a positive company culture and investing in term and growth. Happy, motivated employees are more likely to deliver their best work, sustainable and ethical business practices. Number three Kaestner encourages entrepreneurs to focus on long term sustainable growth for short term gains and to make business decisions that are ethical in line with their faith and their values. Wow. We think. What do we think?

James Cham: You’re tearing up? You’re tearing up.

Henry Kaestner: While I get this stupid and I put it around my eyes. And fortunately, this isn’t a video podcast, but but yes, I am tearing up. But it doesn’t have to do with that. It’s fascinating and scary because what it doesn’t do is it doesn’t point to it talks about generally about faith as if that just kind of like a character attribute without a relationship with a living God who as sinful as I am, died for me. And our response and joy and gratitude of the gift of life now and eternal, that I can then just return to the altar with all that I am is the aroma of Christ to be a blessing and of others, and balancing the joy in the gratitude with the faithfulness and the obedience, and something as multidimensional and just spiritual in the aroma of Christ. So I would answer as a human being, I would answer those questions differently. Now, all of those things can glean different topics on the web, and yet it feels like it’s looked at it through an academic exercise versus a spiritual life, heart transformation one.

James Cham: So I would not anchor myself too much on the idea that that won’t change. And I did a bad job of explaining this earlier. But these models are just based on what people have said, right? And these models are just trying to the best they can to guess what would be the next word based on the first set of words that you gave it to. And then what’s interesting is, like as we progress and provided with more words, the more data or certain types of words and certain kinds of data, then the models will say something different. And so I bet you that if it recorded everything that Henry said on a daily basis and you sort of asked that question again, it would come up with a different answer. And so the super uncomfortable, weird, like I think what’s going to be uncomfortable for us is how good these things are at like feeling human, right? And that’s going to be both a great salve for us. It’ll like make life is a lot better and it’ll also be a great temptation.

Henry Kaestner: Well, yeah. Okay.

William Norvell: Fascinating.

Henry Kaestner: That is fascinating. James. Thank you, brother. Thank you for your friendship, for your partnership. And thank you for spending time. And may the Lord bless you as you get ready to make this presentation in Washington and excited to see how God will go through you and and may He lead all of his people to being able to be participants in the new technology and lean into it and just maybe protect us all. In Jesus name, Amen.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the failure of an investor podcast. I’m here with William, my co-host. William, how are you?

William Norvell: I’m doing fantastic. Gets a little hot out here in California, which is rare for an Alabama guy to say, but we’re hanging in there.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I know that you’re in a house that doesn’t have air conditioning and you’d ordinarily open the windows. But we’ve got wildfires and that’s thrown a little bit of a wrench into things.

William Norvell: You’ve got you’ve got ash raining down end times, ash over there. Right.

Henry Kaestner: It’s crazy. It really is crazy. So today we’ve got an amazing guest. And this is a big deal for me. For those who you know a little bit about my background coming out of bandwidth as we start up Sovereign’s capital, we wanted to focus on Southeast Asia. We had some good relationships in Indonesia and Singapore. And through the grace of God, we’ve made about a dozen investments have gone really, really well in investing in Faith driven entrepreneurs in Indonesia and Singapore. But increasingly, God has put Africa on my heart. And I went with my family this month. Last year I’m recording this right now in August 20, 20, August to 2019. I went back to East Africa for the first time since 1984. I’ve been in South Africa a number of times in that time. But I went back to East Africa for the first time and obviously a long, long time, you know, so incredibly impressed by the amount of advancement and just how the marketplace was just thriving. And I guess anywhere around the world, there isn’t a lot of change over the course of 35 or 40 years. But definitely in East Africa. And as we have had this ministry of Faith Driven Entrepreneur, which preceded Fater of an investor, I thought, gosh, was it look like to bring together faith driven entrepreneurs and faith driven investors to understand what’s going on the marketplace? So we had a couple of Faith Driven Entrepreneur events. One was just this kind of impromptu meet up where we had 200 faith driven entrepreneurs getting together. Nairobi went back in February to try to understand where were investors, local Kenyan Christians investing and just met? No, really just motivating great godly people in government and in industry and then again in church and then among the entrepreneurial class and just felt completely drawn into their stories, just really encouraged and just really encouraged by the way that these astronauts were able to minister to me about how they had this heartfelt mission about loving on their communities in a way that was just it was just awesome. So I’m on an Africa kick and I’ve been on one. I don’t think I’m ever going to get off it. And I came across a book, I guess it just bought in the airport. And I’m reading through this new book called The Prosperity Paradox by Clayton Christensen, and Efosa Ojomo. And I’m reading through it and just amazed by it. And it’s making the case for investing in Africa. And as I’m reading it, I knew a little bit about Clayton Christensen’s faith background. And it comes from a Mormon faith and just very vocal about how faith influences the way that he thinks about his work and unfortunate and also known that he had just passed away. And I’m reading this and seeing the contributions from his coauthor, Efosa Ojomo. I wonder if Efosa has a faith foundation as well. Wouldn’t it be incredible if he has also committed Christ Fowler and that informed his work? And so then I’m like, OK, I’m going to look for this guy. I’m going to find this author because I wonder if he is. And if he is, he might help us unlock as a group of faith driven investors, how to go about investing. And so we track him down. And as it turns out, he is a committed Christ father. He did coauthor the book. And he is also on today’s episode of Faith Driven Investor. You can’t make this stuff up. Efosa, welcome to the program.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you. Thank you so much, Henry and William. It’s really an honor to be here. Wow. Thank you.

Henry Kaestner: Super cool to have you. So we start every episode by, we’re going to get into the book, but we get to the things that guy has taught you in your life and the hopes that you’ve got for Africa. And together, mostly you. To be clear, that burns mostly on you. We’re gonna make this case for investing in Africa that you can actually do well, that you can help involved in lifting a continent out. And there’s some big deals to be done and there’s some really compelling opportunities. But before we do that, we’d like to interview each one of our guests and understand a little bit of their background. Who are you? Where do you come from?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. Thank you. So I’m originally from Nigeria and I was born and raised there till I was 16, where I moved to the States for college. I was born into a really loving family. I’ve got three siblings. We’re all thankfully Christ followers. There was one of those things where at an early age can’t really describe it. But I just had this awareness of God’s love for me and for all of us.

And so, you know, I would say my parents were what you would call a good people. They were nice people. They taught us to be kind, humble, caring, generous.

But, you know, they didn’t quite introduce the gospel to us, like we weren’t going to attend a Sunday school, that kind of thing. But I was nine years old and went to boarding school. Somehow I just was aware that there was a God that loved me, and that was when I decided to commit my life to him.

Now, since then, it’s been a journey, as any Christ follow would tell you. Ups and downs. But I would say that’s when the journey started for me. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that sort of explains my background upbringing. The connection to the US, though, is quite interesting because it also connects to the work I do today. When I was 16, I was fortunate to get a scholarship to come to college in the U.S. I bought a one way ticket. No intentions of ever going back to Nigeria. Sort of typical immigrant story. You know, you’re gonna come to America, embraced the American dream, and life was going to be good. And I got to tell you, I was there. I mean, I got a job as an engineer. I was working and bought a house, bought a car, even bought an SUV, you know, big gas guzzling SUV. And I was I was all about America. But then my life changed after I began reading about poverty, development and economics. And we can go into details as we talk.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. Yeah. So Nigeria’s this country. And maybe I’ll just talk about the elephant in the room. Many of our listeners have been in contact with people from Nigeria before that have invited them to participate in different things. And your family, too was brought into some of the challenges that are part of Nigerian. We’re going to be clear. This is episode about talking about the very good things going on in Nigeria and Africa. And yet many of us have this experience of interacting with people in Nigeria and there’s some amount of corruption. And that impacted your family, I think, with your sister.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So the thing about, you know, growing up in Nigeria and Nigeria, especially perhaps, I mean, other emerging economies, but Nigeria is this idea of poverty, which is connected to corruption, very connected to corruption, becomes normalized. All right. And that’s a big difference between, say, growing up in Nigeria and the US, you know, poverty and corruption and normalized. And so the experience you’re talking about is one that I talked about in my TED talk where my sister got her office broken into. Someone stole some stuff. She went to the police station and they essentially the folks at a police station essentially asking her for a bribe to pay a little something for them to be able to do their jobs. And for her, she was just confused, like I just got robbed. You are the police. You’re supposed to help and you’re asking me to commit another crime. And it just didn’t make sense. But that is not an anomaly. Right. That’s just one example of how corruption shows itself in the country. The problem is that gets normalized. And the idea that we can never develop until we fix everything was really ingrained in me. It was ingrained in my sister, in many people in Africa, which I think is one of the biggest issues in terms of thinking about how the country and the continent can develop.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so let’s tackle that corruption a little bit, just even at the outset. Let’s get right into it. How do you remove corruption from a society? How do you deal normalize that as a way of life? What’s that look like?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. So, I mean, there are a couple of ways to tackle this, right? One is we tackle this as a moral cultural problem. Right. So corruption is bad. We all know it’s bad. You need to stop it. If you don’t stop it, nothing can happen. And that, I think, is the dominant way. Corruption is often discussed and it’s often handled. You know, we have the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index. We have ease of doing business indices. We have, you know, world governance indices. These are, you know, these indices that show us how does a country rank in governance and corruption and so on. Right. That’s one way to handle it. If you country moves up, you know, the idea is you can get some extra investment. But then the other approach, which is the approach we take in our research, which is the approach that has worked for many prosperous countries today, is to handle it more scientifically and to do that. What we have to do is to lean into this idea of corruption and ask the question, why are people engaged in corruption? Right. Why do people engage in corruption, seem to engage in corruption in this country? Maybe not so much in this other country. Did people in rich countries today ever engage in corruption at a similar scale or level? What types of corruption are there? Right.

Are all corruption or forms of corruption created equal? And when you lean into those questions with some humility, with the understanding that you know. Maybe the folks engaging in this kind of corruption are not just all evil and terrible and there’s no hope. Maybe I need to understand the circumstance better. You begin to uncover some truly amazing insights. And that’s the approach we’ve taken. And in doing that, what we find is the vast majority of people who engage in corruption are doing that to solve a problem.

They’re doing that to typically increase incomes so they can afford a place to live so they can pay for health care so they can get justice. Like my sister. Imagine if she paid that bribe. She didn’t. Just to be clear. But if she did, it wasn’t like she wanted to choke up on whatever day she was robbed and said, I want to pay this. I want to just go be corrupt.

You know, it would be that she had to engage in it so she could get justice. And when we begin to unpack why people engage in it and the different forms, we begin to see the role, the critical role, innovation, entrepreneurship and increase in investment can actually play in helping people and communities mitigate incidences of corruption.

Henry Kaestner: So if I’m following you’re talking about the concept that development and wealth creation has this inverse relationship with corruption. So as an economy gets stronger and there’s more innovation, it feels a little bit like a chicken and egg thing. Right? Some people say, well, but I get that. But I’m I can invest any money until I see corruption go down. Are you asking people in are their stories of success in investing in places like Nigeria where investors have gone in and said, you know what? I know there’s corruption. And yet I still see opportunities and that type of investment and development has paid off for the investor while decreasing corruption? Or do I have it backwards?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. It is this notion of chicken and egg. In fact, one of the things that I said in the TED talk I gave was societies don’t develop because they’ve reduced corruption. They’re able to reduce corruption because they’ve developed. And then when you just think about how we fight, corruption requires a lot of resources and many low and middle income countries don’t have the mechanisms, the money to actually fight corruption. But to your question about other opportunities and so on. Absolutely. There are so many opportunities. The minute we begin to see things differently. Right. So one quick example is, is one that we highlight. I highlight this. A lot of my research in our book and even in the TED talk is the story of Mo Ibrahim. You know, so about 20 years ago, 22, to be more precise. He looks at the continent of Africa. No joke. And he says, I want to go and build mobile telecommunications infrastructure on the continent and get cell phones to the average African. Now, for many of your listeners who know when they hear the word Africa, the continent, I mean, what comes to mind? Poverty, corruption, malaria, destitution. I mean, it’s often bad words that are associated with the continent. Twenty two years ago, it was a lot worse. And that was you know, The Economist wrote an article, The Dark Continent essentially is saying where Africa is a hopeless continent. And the idea of mobile phones was still new. It was still new even in rich countries. So it wasn’t like it was widespread and every single person had it. Right. But he looks and says, I think I can create value if we give the average person access to this phone. Talk to a lot of his colleagues at the time, they thought he was crazy. There’s no way this continent would absorb this technology. There’s no way that people can’t eat. How could they possibly afford this? Well, it turns out that he sets up cell tell mobile telecommunications company in the midst of an Africa that poor, you know, corrupt and so on. And he is able to, in the span of seven years, create a market for mobile telecommunication services. Right. Inexpensive cell phones, mobile minutes for more than five million customers generates revenues of more than half a billion dollars a year, net income of a little over one hundred million a year and sells his company right, sells his company in seven years, 1998 to 2000 and five, four three point four billion dollars. Now, Mo Ibrahim is sitting on the list of one of the world’s richest men today. But, you know, the question is, how did he mitigate corruption? How did he fight this? Well, you have to have a strategy to deal with whatever obstacles come your way when you decide to invest somewhere. And so for him, he said we’re going to have a zero tolerance policy on corruption. And so when they went into a country, they made sure they began building relationships with top. Level government officials that were not corrupt. I mean, there’s this idea that every single person on the continent is corrupt. That’s really not the case. So he built relationships there. Then he set policies within his organization that if you’re going to cut a check for anything over thirty thousand dollars, you have to get board approval. We have to make sure we understand why we’re cutting the check and so on. Now, at the onset, this is inefficient. This is no way to run a business. But it’s important to understand some of these policies will not last forever. Right. These are ways that you can mitigate some of the issues and obstacles in doing business in emerging economies. Once he was able to do this and built a business model that made the cell phone affordable and accessible.

I mean, millions of people flooded into the markets. And today what we have is a continent with close to a billion mobile phone subscriptions, over 100 telecommunications companies all across the continent generating taxes of 15 to 20 billion dollars a year for African governments. So that, again, they can improve their governance, build infrastructure and so on. And that industry is now worth close to 200 billion dollars on the continent. If he waited for Africa to root out corruption and build out its infrastructure. Have a governance structure similar to, you know, richer countries. He’d still be waiting today. But it’s this beautiful evolutionary process of the role of innovation and how it helps develop society that we really want to share in the work we do.

William Norvell: Efosa, William here. Thank you for going into that. I might get to the book. Next, I want to ask one question, though, while you’re going down this path of corruption. So it sounds like they put a very tolerant policy. But as a Christ follower, I remember a conversation business go around this. And I was all high and mighty saying how great I was and how morally superior I was to people. And one of my friends from the Middle East in a really winsome way said, you know, if you want to do business like that is what it is. And that’s just the way the economy works. And he said, hey, if you call it a facilitating payment, maybe you’ll sleep better at night. And he had a really, like, core thesis that, you know, this is just part of bottom line net income. And this is the way you get a building permit. And it is what it is. And to be fair, I have another experience in life where I built a building in Chicago where I noticed some line items missing. And I asked a senior executive and he said some version of the same thing is that if you’re going to build a building in Chicago, you’re gonna have a line item there. I don’t know if you want to know what’s in it or not. And he was dead serious. And so my question is, as a Christ-follower, how do you think about that? Are there places where, you know, corruption is a big word? Facilitating payments a smaller word, bribe is a bigger word, means some version of the same thing. Is that business? I mean, do you think he really and I’m not saying he didn’t build a three point four billion dollar company without ever paying anything that was not, you know, right down the middle of the fairway. And how have you seen that play out in other investments there?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know I don’t know the answer to that question. I believe him when he says, look, this is how we built this and I haven’t heard otherwise. Right. And if you’re going to build something that big. I think people would say, oh, you’re a hypocrite. Look at what you did. Look what you did. The question, though, is critical. So one of the things that I think Christ following investors. Right. Investors who just are not about I want to make as much money as I can, but really want to be a force for good and a force for God in the world. Should understand is this notion that C.S. Lewis talks about in his book where he says, Christ, little Christians all over the place should be like good infection. It’s like we should go to a place. And because of the way we are, we should infect the place as sort of like little Christ’s running around. And over time, we’ll see how that place changes. One of the best ways you can do this is through business. Now, what this means is we need to lean into places that seem overtly corrupt and figure out how to do business there. But in terms of how you navigate around it, I would recommend another book, which, by the way, everyone I am. She’s a professor out of University of Michigan. The name of the book is called China’s Gilded Age The Paradox of Economic Boom. And I think it’s vast corruption. And what she describes is this idea that not all corruption is created equal. This notion that there are really four types of corruption. Right. That’s petty theft. So the stuff that my sister was experiencing and as grand theft and embezzlement. Right. So when you hear Senator has embezzled 10 million dollars or Westminister, that’s grand theft. And then there’s. Access, money and access. Money is a lot of times and no different from, you know, what we lobbying. Right now, we might have good justification for it and say, I want to help the lawmakers write the law. I know more about the issues. But, you know, typically access money. It’s sort of, you know, lobbying. We just call it lobbying. And it’s not corruption. It’s transparent and so on. And the last one is speed. Money, right. So you want a new driver’s license. So you want something new permit or something. And then you pay money and it speed things up when you begin to categorize corruption that way. What you find is we have all seen them falling short of the glory of God. Right. And so it’s really hard for me to think of a society where there isn’t one or more forms of this corruption going on. It doesn’t condone it. And I think as Christ followers, we have to lead lives of utmost integrity and then we have to also make decisions on where we go. So Mo Ibrahim, for instance. Right. He did not set up shop in Nigeria.

I mean, most populous country in Africa that would have given him a lot of, you know, economic prosperity. Now, I don’t know why he didn’t, but my guess is he tried and he’s like, I can’t play ball the way these guys want me to play ball. And so he didn’t set up shop there, set up shop in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Uganda, much smaller economies still did really well. And so I think as a Christ follower, we will be convicted in one way or another and we will have to make decisions on where we go, how we invest. But sort of the high level broad. Oh, I can’t go here because there’s corruption and I’m a Christian. I’m not even gonna lean into it. I don’t think that’s the way we should think about it.

William Norvell: Oh, it’s fantastic. Thank you for taking us down the detour. I love that for framework of kind of thinking through it. And I think that’s super helpful. OK. We’re gonna shift back to this ownership back of the book Prosperity Paradox. We talked about a little bit. I want to give you a chance. Give us the core thesis of the book and what you’re really trying to draw out and writing it.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. Quick, quick story on that. In 2008, I read a book about poverty and economic development. The author of the book, William Easterly a professor out of NYU. He dedicated the book to a 10 year old Ethiopian girl who had to wake up every morning at three a.m., fetch firewood, walk miles and sell so she could take care of a family. Right. I’m in my room. February Wisconsin crying. I’m crying uncontrollably. I’m not really a big crier, but I couldn’t help myself because I thought there are hundreds of millions of people, young children in the world that are struggling like this. And I could not connect, sort of reconcile my faith, the story I was reading and how I was lead in my life. I remember earlier I talked about I embrace the American dream wholeheartedly and I just wanted a lot of nice things. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I think I was just really convicted. And that year I started going back home to Nigeria every year to do some poverty alleviation work. Now, in the process, I started an organization called Poverty Stops Here. We built a bunch of wells in different communities and virtually all the wells broke down and hit me that something is wrong with this process. Right? Because what we did was we looked at poverty as a lack of resource problem. And the solution, therefore, is you provide the resource. You go to a community, you don’t have water, schools, wells, hospitals, you provide the resource and you fix the problem. Unfortunately, that way of solving the problem is not sustainable. So that’s a big lesson that I learned. And that’s the paradigm shift we want to happen for people that read the book. The core thesis is you don’t fix poverty by trying to fix poverty. Instead, you fix poverty by trying to create prosperity. Right. And when you try to create prosperity, you realize that you can’t do it without focusing on entrepreneurship, innovation, and more specifically, what we describe as market creating innovations. And these are innovations like the one more Ibraheem built where you make a product that’s really expensive, complicated, you make it simple and affordable. So many more people can afford it. And when you do that, what ultimately happens is you generate a lot of wealth. So Mo Ibrahim and a lot of wealth, you create a lot of jobs that can help people earn much more income. You generate tax revenues, like I described earlier, about the mobile telecommunications industry and the tax revenues that they’re now generating. And perhaps the most important thing is you begin to foster a culture of innovation and entrepreneurship so other people see this new market you’re creating. They want to take part in it. Investors come in, entrepreneur. Nurse come in and you begin to innovate and develop newer and newer products. And that’s what we realized and that’s the core thesis in the book. The more market creating innovations we develop, the more societies can prosper.

William Norvell: Efosa, we’ve talked a little bit and I think this is common. You end up talking a little bit, unfortunately, when you talk about an investing in Africa, some of the negative connotations that come along with it. But obviously, there are just incredible assets that are unique and only to Africa. And even that Sennett’s I’m one of those people that, you know, when you say Africa, I can’t even name all the countries. Right. And I know they’re there. But in my mind, it’s like one big place and I can’t get out of it just to confess that and ask for forgiveness that I have not done my research. But so tell me and our listeners a little more about the uniqueness of investing in that continent.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. So, I mean, I could talk for an hour. I will focus on three things here. Number one, it’s the youngest continent. And when we talk about that in economic development talk, we talk about this idea of a demographic dividend. Right. It’s essentially when the people working outnumber people in retirement. And so this a nation or a region has this demographic dividend. Many other parts of the world are growing much older. Africa is very young and the median age is about 18 or 19 years old. Now, what that does or what that means is if an investor can create a market on the continent, you’re going to have customers for a very, very long time. Right. So that’s one thing that’s unique to the continent. The second thing is, at this stage, the continent, not only is it young, but it’s very susceptible to technology. Right. So when you look at the proliferation of technology on the continent, what you find is the continent can actually leapfrog a lot of traditional technologies. And so just look at the way mobile telephony spread all across the continent. Internet and data is next. And that also is going to spread. And so begin to think about new business models and how to attract this growing customer base. So that’s the second thing. The third, which is often seen as a negative, is actually a positive. It’s this idea that there is vast nonconsumption on the continent. And, you know, we define nonconsumption in our book, in our writing. It’s essentially when a vast majority of people in a region cannot access a product or service that would benefit them. And so when you look at Africa, just vast nonconsumption of many of the most basic things. I mean, from housing to even food to health care to education. It’s just vast right now. You can look at that and say that there’s no opportunity there. These folks are too poor. If Mo Ibrahim did that 22 years ago, he wouldn’t have created this vast market. But when you look at nonconsumption and say, oh, my gosh, if I go into this market, to this region, create a market, I will not have a lot of competition because right now people are not consuming. You can actually turn that around and see there’s a ton of opportunity. I think the challenge is many entrepreneurs and investors look at Africa and compare it to wealthier countries. From the governance side and even from the market side, you see the continent is in what I call the market creation phase, which means when you go to Africa to create a new market, we’ll stick with Mo Ibrahim example. He talked about how if you wanted to do a mobile telecommunications company in London or the U.S., he would have just signed papers in a conference room.

And the deal would have been done on the continent in the several countries he started. He had to build the cell towers here to educate a workforce. He had to build some clinics in some communities where his workers would live. He had to engage in community development projects. That’s not an anomaly in the market creation phase as long as an investor knows. These are the things that have to do. Then the returns that are waiting for them are going to be significant. When we look at what Henry Ford did when he was building the US, when we look at what Kodak did, Eastman Kodak, you go to Rochester, New York and see all the stuff that’s there named after him. Amadio, Giannini, Bank of America. We see similar activities. Right. And so what we really want to share with investors is this is not an anomaly when you have to build some of these things. But if you do it in a theory driven way, in a predictable way, you can actually reap a lot of rewards and help communities develop.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m fascinated by this concept to nonconsumption. I get the sense and maybe it’s accurate, maybe it’s not, that there are opportunities that are akin to what we saw in the United States, maybe back at the turn of. Last century, when Vanderbilt and Rockefeller and Stanford and all these people were going ahead and investing in places that things didn’t exist and they were able to shape culture, create culture by investing in the marketplace in profound ways. And I think that what strikes me is I listened to you talk is that there are similar opportunities here. What a compelling not only is there a market to be developed, but as you said, as a young content, you know, average age 18, 19 years. You’ve got consumers for life. That’s really profound. I’m also influenced and impacted by the fact that turning back again to go back in history about how committed Christ followers developed schools and hospitals that are all throughout Africa. And had that very focused in terms of bringing Christ and the gospel to an entire continent. They did that by investing early when other people wouldn’t have done that might take away from this is that there’s a sense for us to do that again and that we can invest in culture, in the marketplace in a way that points to God. And maybe it’s going to be easier to influence an economy for God than it might be for a more developed nation when things are more entrenched. I’d love for you to riff on that. Am I going down the right path on that? Is this that opportunity for us to go in instead of the schools and hospitals as we did one hundred years ago? Now’s the time for us to invest in a marketplace.

Efosa Ojomo: I mean, I think so. I mean, when you think about what work means for a lot of people, I know Tim Keller was on this show. I did a talk. And, you know, his book, Every Good Endeavor, talks about the importance of work in the life of a Christ-follower. When you think about the importance of work, just the average person, Crossville or not, we spend a majority of our waking life at work. So when you talk about influence, how do you influence a society? What better way to influence a society for good and for God than figuring out ways to create businesses and organizations where you have integrity, honesty, truth, goodness as core principles and core values? What better way to do that, especially when that organization is in a system where that’s really not the norm? Right. And so, in a way, I see it as a huge opportunity if more faith driven investors go to Africa, invest in a certain way. Right. We have to figure out how to shape culture, not the other way around, but invest in a certain way. I think that’s going to give us so much more bang for our buck than maybe going into a poor community, you know, donating a school or some T-shirts. I mean, I think investing is what we should be thinking more about.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. I want to be careful that you don’t harsh on T-shirts. That’s how I get my entrepreneurial start selling T-shirts.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, I heard that podcast, too. And that’s why I talked about T-shirts, because I know I’m kidding. I did.

Henry Kaestner: I love the fact you pander to your host. Thank you for that. I love you for it. It’s awesome. Okay. So if you’re a listener out there, this is where we’re going to do a little bit of crowd participation. We at faith driven investor in Faith Driven Entrepreneur had been super encouraged by the development of two different things. And I want to ask you first, if he knows of other things, we might be missing out. But one is this focus on investing in the ecosystem of Faith Driven Entrepreneur ownership. And I think about organizations like Hope International. I think about a Gorai in Snapp’s and TBN and others that are creating this kind of following Christ driven enterprise in the marketplace by doing training and many MBA A’s in matching up mentors with entrepreneurs, et cetera. So there’s a philanthropic opportunity that’s there. And yet, as investors, there are also a whole bunch of new funds to develop over the last 12 or 15 months that we’re tracking. I think about Sard and Tree of Life in South Africa and talent in and Sierra v.C and NovaStar. Can you go kinfolk in others? And I’m just really encouraged by the advent of professional management, both on their capacity building side, but then also in the fund management side, because otherwise it’s hard for the average listener to say, what do I get started? I mean, do I go online and just kind of go on Angeles or we fund? But there’s some other ways, and I’m loving the way that the market for faith driven investor is developing. Anything I’m missing there?

Efosa Ojomo: No, I mean, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s one of the things that we have to begin thinking about, creating a better infrastructure that enables people who get this message and want to get involved to be able to get involved. There’s a fund called Future Africa, a young Christ follower who is figuring out ways to get people to essentially crowd fund investments. That’s why he calls it golden palm. Investment is another one. Good friend of mine went to Harvard Law School Business School, and he’s investing in key sectors in the economy, health care, technology, Verrat, Capital Management and other HBF alarm seem to be biased to the HBF alarms reason?

William Norvell: No, not at all. I don’t hear that at all.

Efosa Ojomo: Yes, health capital is another one focused on agriculture, really figuring out how Africa can become a breadbasket for the world. And so what’s interesting is you don’t have to go too far to find faith driven investors on the continent. Everybody I’ve mentioned is a faith driven investor, which to me was fascinating because I thought, oh, who’s doing this in Africa? Not necessarily who’s a Christian doing this in Africa? And I was like, oh, wow. Faith, faith, faith, faith, faith, you know.

Henry Kaestner: So I tell you, though, you know, HBS definitely has it up on the Stanford Graduate School of Business. William, how do you respond?

William Norvell: No comment.

Henry Kaestner: All right. Well, thank you for not shifting it back to how the University of Delaware alumni base is doing in investing and faith driven opportunities in Africa. And that’s the crowd participation part. As you hear, as you, the listener, understand new players that are in the capacity building space or in the investment space. Share it with us. Superimportant that we as a community can understand more ways that we can get involved in Africa. William brings to close, please.

William Norvell: Yeah, I will. And the only thing I’ll say before that is as you were listing of names and if you listen to this podcast you may hear me say this a bunch of my favorite quotes, but African investing in Africa just totally reminds me of that famous Bill Gates quote that most people overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what they can do in 10. And when you list all those names, my mind just went to this like, what is this conversation going to be in 10 years? It’s going to be so much more. And it’s hard to see that and to start investing in those people now. For our audience to start learning now to listen to those names, obviously email us if you want to learn more. We’re not hard to find. I just had this vision of this conversation in 10 years. And you say. And who knew? Well, it could have happened when we actually had this conversation. And only God knows. Right. And my other favorite quote I’ve heard from God is, you know, now tell you what I was up to, but you wouldn’t believe me even if I told you. And that’s our God if we are faithful and walk with him. And on that note, we are running close to time. So we love to figure out where our guests are in God’s word and where he may be pushing them. So if you have a moment, maybe just share with us where you might be, where he might be taking you today or the season. And let our audience into your life and your walk with God’s word.

Henry Kaestner: And I’ll interject here for folks who need time and think I love the fact he’s got this chalkboard behind him and he’s got the great quote from Jeremiah, 29, that’s up there. It’s written down. That’s true. I don’t know if that was in preparation for today’s call. I don’t know if his next calls with the World Bank. Tell us about that.

Efosa Ojomo: Well, that’s just called my wife and I have up here to encourage us. You know, any Christ follower will tell you the journey is not linear. It’s not straightforward. And so we need reminders that we are on God’s team. He is here for us. He loves us. And that’s just one of the ways we remind ourselves that he has good plans for us, plans for welfare and not for evil. And so, anyways, I think, you know, to your question, William, where my wife and I are now in our faith, we just celebrated our one year anniversary. Is this Matthew six, 33 to 34. Those two verses. Right. You first. A Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. And then the verse 34 says, therefore, do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow, worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. It’s just this idea of putting God first. It sounds really simple, but we’ve been asking ourselves, what does it mean to put God first? To be proactive about our faith, to anchor our lives on our faith. And then everything else flows from there.

And so every year we’ve decided now that we would figure out an issue that we know God cares about and we would lean into that issue, that issue of injustice. That issue of poverty, whatever the issue is, would lean into that issue. And then whatever extra time we have, whatever extra money, whatever extra whatever goes to everything else. But first God issue and then everything else. And so that’s where we are right now. And we’re we’re pretty excited about that.

Henry Kaestner: It should be. That’s awesome. We are, too. Thank you very much for your life’s work. Thank you for your time. And just excited about our partnership and your faithfulness and where God’s got you.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you. Thank you.

Henry Kaestner: Everybody gets the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We’re glad you’re back. Today’s guest is Eric Kim, co-founder and managing partner of Goodwater Capital. As early investors and Facebook, Twitter, Spotify and others, Eric and his team know a thing or two about the tech startup world. But that’s not the limit of Eric’s expertize. He’s done some great thinking about what spiritual integration looks like and their firm and how his faith guides him as he’s part of stewarding a portfolio of over a billion dollars. I’ll let you hear the rest of it from him.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Today is super cool for me because we’re on with a good friend of mine, a guy that I’ve been able to be in in a Bible study and community group of sorts over the course of the last couple of years.

A number of us who are serious about our Christian faith and who got his place in the world of investing have gotten together just to encourage and challenge each other in our pursuit of knowing God and honoring him through our vocations. And it’s with Eric Kim that we’ve got today on the call and been looking for this podcast for a while. Eric, thank you very much for joining Henry.

Eric Kim: And Tim, thanks so much for having me. That’s a real honor and a blessing to be here with you on your listenership today. Appreciate it.

Henry Kaestner: So we have a love that is the official title for listenership that esteems our audience, which needs to be esteemed. Awesome. People were celebrating the fact that we’re now and something like seventy five different countries. But it’s been super encouraging to hear people come back in with great feedback and just great affirmation. So thanks for acknowledging that. And one of the things that you probably know and everybody in our listener base knows is that we like to hear the stories, the personal stories of the people that are on an episode with us. We want to get into some really neat things about the mission and the vision and values and how you think about things like a shadow mission. Today, we’re going to find out what in the world is a shadow mission. And then we’re also going to find out a little bit about the role that consumer technology plays in this post, covid or current covid world. But tell us about who you are, where you come from. And then in the mix of that, I want to know, what is your favorite piece to play on the show?

Eric Kim: Oh, I love it. Thanks for bringing that up. Well, guys, again, it’s just an honor. A pleasure to be here with you all.

So my parents immigrated from South Korea to New York City in the early 70s, which is where I was born when I was quite young. I moved to St. Louis, Missouri, where there weren’t a lot of Koreans where I grew up. I was there through high school. I grew up as a pretty serious musician and went to Yale for undergrad, actually, initially as a music major. And it was actually at Yale where I experienced the power of consumer technology and faith.

And a really interesting way when I was a senior, 9/11 happened. And I think everyone will remember where they were when they heard about the atrocity that happened. And for me, it was particularly painful. I had interned at a hedge fund that had some brokerages associated with it that were completely wiped out by what happened on 9/11, hit particularly close to home, being on the East Coast at that time and during that experience learned about the power of music and technology and community, because we came together as a group to host these benefit concerts. And I was a cellist on campus and we pulled together other groups in the way we advertised through that was through social media, kind of the version of that back then. What was social media where these kind of chat boards and I see a key messenger kind of environment and we advertise these benefit concerts. We saw the community, the network effects of getting the word out.

What inspired that kind of action at that time was kind of a rediscovery of my faith during college. And I talk about it later.

But a number of really influential kind of forces in my life at that time, everything from Campus Crusade for Christ to grab as a Catholic to St. Thomas Moore Chapel on campus as well. And by that ecumenical dialog and being at the intersection that really forfour. He had a really interesting kind of faith calling to come to service, and I bring up the 9/11 example because that carried with me throughout my career, going to McKinsey, working on a couple of startups, working at a large fund called Maverick, but ultimately feeling call to start with Tiwa, my co-founder in 2014, Goodwater Capital, which we believe is a value space to faith driven, purpose driven venture capital firm, which we’ll talk more about. But again, myself in a nutshell, kind of Midwest kid that now is here in Silicon Valley to try to do what we can do through venture investing to have a positive impact on the world.

Henry Kaestner: So if I remember a bit and we didn’t talk about this in the conversation leading up to the podcast, but if I remember back to 2014 and I had known to for a while, but it just started to meet you, there’s a faith story and how you guys got together. Can you share that?

Yeah, you know, there is a number, but God just kept having us meet each other.

Kind of it was serendipitous kind of flukes of nature at the beginning, but we would literally start running into each other. And we are obviously friends before. And we had gone to business school over fifteen years ago together at Stanford GSB, because when you’re ahead of me and then kind of as we were both thinking about starting our own separate firms at that time, God just found ways to bring us together. I remember one day at the Rosewood Hotel, kind of quintessential, you know, Silicon Valley shock.

William Norvell: And you ran into him there. I can’t believe I at the Rosewood.

Eric Kim: I know. I know. But it was like kind of in the thick of both of us thinking about an entrepreneurial venture. He was at Kleiner at the time. I was at Mavericks at the time.

And we had just had a conversation before. And like literally within that, I don’t know. Twenty four to 72 hour, we met again and then had another serendipitous conversation about, hey, what would it look like to start a firm together? And we kept doing that. And then the number of stories around the investors that we would literally meet at the airport that got delayed because the plane got delayed, you know, and then we happened to sit down at the same pizzeria. They were kind of these countless very serendipitous things that happened and, you know, couldn’t help but think that, you know, God’s kind of handprints were all over that in many ways. But it was really cool to see how that came together very organically at the beginning.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I remember that she was doing something about it, really endeavoring understand how to go proceed. And as he was doing that, all of a sudden out of the blue, you called and it was just really cool, made a real impression on him. And you guys have grown together and grown. Have fun now that I think is past the billion dollars of assets under management. So God has blessed your partnership and it gives you a lot of success. Your fund that focuses on consumer technology taught us a bit about what it is that you guys do in the fund and bring it into today’s environment. Why is what you do particularly important today?

Eric Kim: Yeah, so our stated mission when we started in 2014 was to empower exceptional entrepreneurs who are changing the world. And our focus area is just consumer technology. We don’t do enterprise, SAS, security, hardware, biotech, all.

We do our digital horizontal platforms that touch the consumer directly.

And so whether that’s financial services, health care, education, online grocery marketplaces, video communications. Kiwa was an investor in Facebook and Twitter prior to joining him. I Goodwater I was an investor in Kakao Talk, part of Goodwater, which now has ninety nine percent penetration as a messaging app in South Korea.

And you can go into our company there. There’s something very unique about the power of, again, horizontal digital platforms that have network effects that every time a net new user joins in the power of that platform becomes stronger. So whether that’s a Netflix, a Spotify, telemedicine companies, financial services, fintech companies, peer peer payments, one more one more user comes into that community or that app. The whole gets stronger and that’s all we do. I could water the entire billion dollar plus of the assets we manage is just focusing on empowering exceptional entrepreneurs who are changing the world through consumer technology because consumer technology touches billions of lives on a day to day basis, if not hour to hour basis. Whether we like it or not, we are in front of these digital platforms almost every living minute of the day. And so when we think about our mission, our calling, our purpose, we wanted to focus all our energy into what we think is one of the most powerful forces from a secular perspective in the world, which is consumer tech. So we’ve been in early investors in a company called Musically, which is now called Tech Talk, which is Superfriends. Enter the news these days. And we’ve been in other companies as well, you know, all kind of stuff or more questions on this topic and love to explore any area. But I will just leave by saying a lot of those companies end up being fairly controversial also. So what? It’s Facebook about privacy, to talk about privacy or, you know, when and how should telemedicine be adopted or what’s the privacy or the security around fintech platforms?

We as a value investor, actually want to be in the thick of those conversations. We want to be right where the rubber meets the road with regards to secular innovation and where consumer behavior is changing, because we think that even if we change the trajectory of this company by one degree, we will have tremendous impact, hopefully.

So that’s where we’re focused as of today.

Henry Kaestner: So I think that that’s something a lot of people don’t think about. And so many people think of the role when they invest in private equity funds as being a passive player in an overall trend. But the reality is, is that when you come alongside an early investor and get a board seat, you’re now a partner. You have a voice at the table. And you’re right, consumer technology is a wonderful thing. We all use it to be able to have people who are speaking into the lives of the entrepreneurs to encourage them, but then also appropriately challenge them. Is there an example that you might be able to offer up over the course of the last several years, if necessary? You can leave the name out of it where there is this kind of ethical kind of fork in the road where the CEO of a consumer technology company is trying to say, we see an opportunity here, but your sense of values and faith driven, this tries to encourage them in a different direction.

Eric Kim: Yeah, that there are several points to a couple. I’ll start by stating our core values, which today are humility, integrity, transparency, quality, service. And then we’ve added a six one justice and we could talk more about that. But it’s through these lens that first we make it really, really almost painstakingly clear to our entrepreneurs before they sign up to partner with us that those are the values that we’re about. So if you want someone in your cap table that has those values, we’ll work with you day and night through those lenses. I would say, particularly with regards to consumer technology in this day and age. One of the things we’re really passionate about that has come up, frankly, time and time again.

It’s come up before I started. Goodwater, it’s ever more present today is the production of children on these platforms and whether it’s pornography, whether it’s addiction, whether it’s child pornography itself, it’s again, something that is near and dear to a lot of our hearts as parents and as family members, frankly. And we see it. It was something that there was a major platform that we were associated with. I can’t name it, but we had to really pound the table with regard to changing our growth trajectory, sacrificing some initial growth to make sure we safeguarded the children that would potentially be in the audience itself. And it comes up time and time again. But I think what is surprising and not trying to toot my own horn, we fall short in so many ways, but is that we are usually the sole voice pounding the table about these issues. And again, these companies netnet may be seen, but actually is very controversial or very, you know, potentially gray in some areas.

But what we often think about is if it’s not good or who else should sit in that void to make sure there is a voice of values in some of those situations.

So, yeah, it’s come up. It comes up and particularly around the protection of children is something that we’re seeing and we’re quite sensitive to.

Henry Kaestner: Well, as a dad, thank you for that. And William, your dad of a young child as well. So I know that, you know, was one thing when my children are a little bit older, 14, 16 and 18. And that is something that’s absolutely front and center. But you’re investing also in the companies. They’re going to be the leaders in consumer technology in the future to sit that out. When you do have that conversation with the entrepreneur and you’re pounding the table, do they wonder why is you can say, actually, you know, we’ve got this kind of moral compass that comes from something about who we are? What does that look like about why you’re pounding the table or you judge judging or versus that’s a unique opportunity to witness. And yet I shouldn’t be prescriptive even in the asking the question about how that manifests itself. But tell us more about you being the sole person pounding on the table and being completely different than the rest.

Eric Kim: Yeah, I think it comes down to mission and purpose and really getting at the roots of it. And now you mentioned shadow mission, but often we’ll come back to speaking into the hearts and the hearts already there for these entrepreneurs. They want to do intrinsically something really positive for the role. That’s why they risked everything to become an entrepreneur to begin with. But speaking into that side of it. Right. And aligning around what is that remember back what was that original mission you started this company for? It was for the purpose of serving X or Y. What was that original purpose? And as opposed to kind of what I would call often is the shadow mission. And this is popularized by John Ortberg. And John, if you’re listening, I’m praying for you, buddy, and we’ve never met. But you bless me immensely as you. But.

Henry Kaestner: The people you have ever met, senior Pastor Amen, the church here in the Bay Area, great man of God.

Eric Kim: Absolutely. But this message around a mission, I think, is actually where there is light and where there’s an entrepreneur’s kind of intrinsic nature to want to do good. And then on the other side of that is the desire to be on the cover of Forbes is to be a billionaire, is to have growth and to break all these records and to have kind of the accolade associated with it. And if we bring it back, each speaking into it is not from a moralistic perspective like this is wrong or this is right is I actually remember why you started this company to became let’s remember that real mission and take everything else aside. Take aside the case study that you want written about you take aside all the accolades that you want to take, aside the pay and think back about that mission. And that is, I think when the heart becomes most vulnerable for them and we can speak into it and whether they know we’re our faith and we’re not shy about it, we don’t necessarily advertising on our sleeves either.

But it invariably does come up in almost every conversation with the entrepreneurs we work with. I think they understand where it comes from and where it becomes real for them. Whether they are faith or not is that they have this underlying mission, which I believe God has blessed them with, and then speaking it to that and tying it to the reality that they’re faced with to make sure they’re making that choice because they can serve one or two missions in that moment.

William Norvell: Yeah, it’s so good. So good. I actually heard that sermon like eight years ago and it has changed my life and ascended to so many people. It’s just amazing to think about, you know, go in one direction. And then you have, you know, he talks about how you can just be five degrees off. Right. So a lot of times people think you’re 180 degrees off and that’s how you you know, you see your way off the path. But in reality, it’s usually just a little bit you know, you’re probably using the gifts that God’s given you. You’re probably doing all the things pretty close to it, but you’re just doing it for a little different reason. He talks about giving a sermon. He’s like, that’s what I’m gifted to do. That’s what God give me to do, is that in my shadow mission is every day I go to sleep and I wake up and I hope it says amazingly good looking, eloquent man gives incredible sermon once again, right?

Eric Kim: Yeah, it’s. Yeah. Just those few degrees off. But in an extreme sense, the articulation a few degrees off. But those few degrees are in the direction of how and how does that manifest itself for you.

William Norvell: What do you feel like you wrestle with as you were thinking through that paradigm?

Eric Kim: Yeah, I thank you for asking that. You know, when we started in twenty fourteen, Tiwa and I looked at each other and said, this is not my firm, this is not a year for this is God’s firm and kind of made that sacred vow to begin with and had that really strong misalignment.

And I think that what is the shadow mission for all of us.

I’ll speak for myself being as an investor, of being someone that you measure yourself based on the investments you make your track record. Right. The multiple and the IRR that you have created, the wealth you have created for others, take a lot of pride in that.

And I think that the shadow mission is to, as a firm or as an individual investor is to be a billionaire, to raise a certain X amount of funds, to be on a list, to get kind of the accolade associated with that track record that you establish. And when we started, the firm firms like there was never a mission to create a track record. It was to have impact.

And so I think that is the constant battle. And what I love about how Ortberg popularized the notion of a shadow mission is that it’s not to say we’re going to all just be pure and wash ourselves or this is just to say it’s part of us. It is there. We can’t just cut it off.

It’s really acknowledging because part of my pride and my ego is to be the best in investing is to have the best rapper is to be one of the most successful venture capitalists. I know it.

It’s there. But naming it and making sure that that is not what I’m feeding on a day in, day out basis is so important.

But unless I name it up front and understand that that is my kind of natural tendency, I think that is really what has preserved our partnership, which is really important that Goodwater and actually helped it blossom because we’re not looking towards our own self fulfillment. We’re really looking towards the fulfillment of the mission itself. Now, we fall short all the time. I want to be really clear. It is so hard. Right. And it’s just like those magical moments when a brother like Henry with our Christian Accountability Venture Capital Group, you know, can hold you accountable to some of these things and to check your ego. And again, it’s just that constant battle that we’re in that I would just again, encourage everyone who might be listening to this. Like just what is that shadow mission of yours from the investment or from a secular business perspective?

And name it, don’t be afraid of it, but name it in the hopes that you can sometimes check it at just those crucial moments.

Henry Kaestner: I want to dove into that a little bit more because you’re on to something there that, of course, plays all of us as Christ, not just us as fund managers. It’s riffing on Proverbs 16, two and twenty one to all of a man’s ways seem pure to him, but his motives are weighed by the Lord. And every time I read that, I am so incredibly convicted and I have these shadow missions and the danger, if you have some level of success in the world and especially the Christ followers, that you can pretty much justify almost everything you’re doing in terms of trying to create value and trying to participate. And much that might be true. But you might have this 80 percent of what you’re doing can absolutely be defended as I’m investing for the flourishing of society. But when selfishness or the approval of others kind of seep in, it takes us further away from God. And so you’re doing and through the work of John Ortberg. But what you’re really showing here is that you have endeavored what you want just to be that much more conscious of it in the humility that comes with that. Let me just say that that’s different from what you hear from the typical Sandhill Road venture capitalist.

Eric Kim: I have to just thank you, Henry, in particular, because you’ve been a great mentor to me. And I go back and remember one of the most impactful things you said to me, which I think applies to anyone, regardless of where you might be on a wealth scale or where you are in life.

But the metaphor holds true.

And you said to me, Eric, never get liquid because you may have seen, I think, in some other folks lives just what happens when folks achieve some success in the notion of equity. Again, doesn’t matter where you are a scale, that notion is that you suddenly have like this freedom to just do whatever you want because you’ve got this kind of accumulated currency of here on Earth. You can just do whatever you want. And certainly it pertains to the wealthy. And I think it pertains to everyone just kind of mentally from a currency of feeling in need and on our knees for Christ and on our knees because we realize how dependent we are on the Lord and then going to being in a quote unquote, liquid situation. Where to your point, I do whatever we want. I got the resources I can hop on this plane. I can maybe get this really nice kind of luxury item here or things like that. And I’m not saying nice things are bad, not by any means. But at the same time, what happens is we’re disconnected. We’re going from not just being part of this world, but being of this world in that moment. And I just remember back when you told me about that, it’s just like a conversation we can all have and be very real about like what does that mean for us? You know, whether I’ve accumulated that like an extra few bucks through the stock market as a couple bucks a couple of weeks, like, does that suddenly change your mental state somehow and your attitudes towards the Lord and God? And I think particularly it’s just something we have to really be mindful in being in the investment world.

Henry Kaestner: I completely agree. That was very encouraging what you said. I need to give credit for that to Jim Bowen, who is the founder and CEO of First Trust Portfolios, a very early investor in Bano.

On the personal side, he just had set on a ministry board with David and came on board and we went out and met with him and he said, guys? And he dressed and looked a lot like Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko character in Wall Street. I’ll never forget. He said, never get liquid. I’ve seen it just destroy families. And on the flip side of that, and there’s the cautionary side, the investor that I look to as a mentor, just an incredible class act, really godly man. It’s a guy named Tom Darden. And Tom ran and continues to run Cherki Partners, two and a half billion dollars worth of real estate assets and huge land holdings in India and other places like that, really the best in the world. And what he does, which is to renovate what are called Brownfield’s real estate that has some sort of oil damage or something like that. And Tom rides a bike to work. He has immense wealth. But one of the things that really grounds him is not just his faith, but the fact that he is never liquid. Every single time he has any type of liquidity, he’s investing in the next entrepreneur that comes around. He has hundreds of investments and different technologies that are really making a difference in the world. And he does it every cent whenever they go public, he immediately sells the stock, not immediately. But he’ll tell you, you know, he looks for an opportunity, sell stock and then put it in another investor. And as a result, he never has the liquidity around him to think about buying another yacht. And in the process, because he’s investing in illiquid assets, either a private equity or venture capital fund like you all have, or an individual angel investments, he’s really creating part of the fabric of the enlargement of society. So thanks for having said that as encouragement to me, but I need to give credit to Jim Bowen and then to the guy, his model that out for me, Tom Dart also.

William Norvell: Let’s get. I usually steal John shuttle mission statement, but you already knew about it, so I can’t take credit for it. You’re like the one guy that listen to the deep tracks and, you know, really upsets me. ERG, I want to take one step back. You mentioned a phrase kind of in passing, but I think especially for our audience. Want to go. You said you were faith driven, venture capital firm. You know, and I know we’ve gone around the world a little bit on what that could mean in certain situations. But I want to give you a chance just to maybe from the highest level say, what does that mean to you? Do you look at investments differently? Do you work with your entrepreneurs differently, 100 different things? Do you work with your team differently? Just what does that mean to you? In the essence? Because I think there’s a lot of people listening that either are that or want to be that. And I think you have a really unique lens on what that means.

Eric Kim: Yeah, it’s evolving for us. And in 2014, we launched with this mission of empowering entrepreneurs who are changing the world and did everything we could to serve that mission in 2020. Amidst the pandemic of covid-19, amidst the pandemic of racism, which continues to burn across our nation and world, we added a sixth value of justice to our five preexisting values. And the reason I bring this up is that I would say that we launch in 2014 with our mission in 2020. I feel like we reemphasize or rediscover our purpose itself, and that is to bring justice and healing to the world. Again, the notion of justice is that being inspired by Michael six, eight, how do we bring justice to the world? And I think that is again, where the rubber meets the road for us. That is how we try to measure ourselves as being a corporate faith driven venture capital firm or being leaders of faith leading a venture capital firm. I think those are almost synonymous or I would hope they could be. I hope that who I am on Sunday is the same as who I would be on a Wednesday or Friday. And so that, I think is through the lens of are we really bringing justice to the world? We look at investments through that lens in the consumer techland. Is this really going to bring justice of some sort to the world? We recently looked at a company bringing telemedicine to the mental health space and it’s frankly heartwarming. Inspirers reinspire us every time we meet an entrepreneur that is so mission oriented and it aligns with his value of justice that we can actually bring some kind of healing to the world itself through our investments. It also makes us think a lot about our Elche base. We’ve been, as Henry mentioned, really, really fortunate to be at the scale we are in six years and.

Thinking about where do we take capital from, are they values align? Do they also align with our desire to positively impact the world? And it’s not just lip service, but something they’re willing to, you know, go to battle on our behalf for and then certainly our employees. I think that we’re a team of about 30 folks here in Burlingame. And how do we think about who we hire? Are they values aligned? And do they share this maniacal desire to change the world for the better? And I think that is our current manifestation. I think this will probably change and mature. But right now we feel like we’re in the thick of the battle right now. And so when we prioritize the various meanings of what a quote unquote, future of an investor could be in our current state, the current chapter in what we’re prioritizing is should be on the front line of really trying to push this impact, to bring justice, to bring healing to the world. That is kind of what is driving us right now and what we’re prioritizing within the spectrum of what that could mean. And then we’re doing it through our investments. We’re doing it through the people we hire and to help capital that we take on.

William Norvell: It’s amazing. That’s an amazing articulation of what that means to you guys and really appreciate that.

And your whole team would think that comes to mind as I try to get a little practical at some level.

As you know, a lot of people here are doing investments and obviously names don’t need to be included in this at all. Could you maybe walk us through a few investments that didn’t meet that criteria?

You know, companies that you saw that you said, I mean, gosh, if we weren’t us to invest in that, that’s going to make a lot of money and it’s going to be a success. And, you know, we may get a call about that from one of our LPs that ask you better have a good reason for passing on that one.

Eric Kim: You know, if this comes up for us in the financial services space quite a bit. So if you think about fintech companies broadly and Henry and I at William with you as well, we have been co-investors in some wonderful fintech companies that are really bringing kind of the banking to the unbanked, if you will, or bringing the access to the financial services, to the broader community, which is wonderful. I think where we’ve said no flat out to certain investments is where we feel like it’s taking an unfair break from the consumer with regards to lending, with regards to some of the interest rates that are being applied, there are rules of consumer protection out there already around what you can charge. But there are companies that get around it, I would say, through some questionable practices. And so that’s something where we have felt like this is a huge business opportunity and it’s very subjective. Right. My view of it is going to be very biased. But what’s quote unquote fair? What’s a fair interest rate to charge someone, for example? That’s what it comes down to ultimately. And I think that’s where, again, the perspective of the entrepreneurs become really clear about what side they are on in terms of where they would like to take things for the U.S. to maximize kind of short term profits, because it’s, again, very easy to justify. Well, if they were going to the black market or to some really suspicious kind of lending sources, it’s better than that. But those companies are in a position to both profit, but also to good to provide better services. I think where we’ve seen this really come in to answer your question directly, is in the lending space, sometimes we’ve had to say, you know, it’s just not worth it because it’s going to be very high, profitable company. But these practices just seem unfair. And again, I know it’s subjective, but that’s just how we feel about those situations.

William Norvell: No, that’s true. Yeah, absolutely. That’s super helpful. And yeah, unfortunately, God didn’t lay venture capital in Romans anywhere right now. There is some things you got to pray about and then you may come to a different conclusion than another investor sometimes.

Yeah. Who’s also driven by their faith. But staying close to you and what do you feel called to do is so unique and what inspires everybody, I think to figure out their own story as we unfortunately come to a close. One of the things we love to do is see how God’s word can transcend between our guest and our listeners. And we find it amazing to see how we hear from people that, you know, they just needed that verse today from that other person’s life and the intertwining of stories. And so what I’d ask you is, if you’d be so generous to share where God has you in his word, whether that is something you read today, something you’re in this season. Michael Jackson. I heard it could be that could be something else just to be great.

Eric Kim: Yeah. Thank you. And there were two things that came to mind when I was thinking about joining you today. And I think that the first is it’s just the Sermon on the Mount.

So take any part of that. But I think what I am constantly impacted is blessed are the. Or and what does that mean for us? I kind of purposely I’m calling this off because we’re in venture capital and kind of in this secular tailwind of investing and things are going up into the right and all these things.

But what does it mean to be blessed are the poor? And I would say that is something that that can mean a lot of different things for different people. For me, it’s to be poor in all things. But Christ. And I think that is just something that I hope that people can reflect about today, and obviously we’ve got a lot going on as a world politically and with the pandemic in among whatever state we’re in, we can be both kind of very sexually rich and also secondly, poor, but still not poor in the way that was being talked about in that survey. And how can we keep our hearts to really be rich in Christ and just to be enriched and Christ alone. So hopefully that makes some sense to folks and just kind of something that’s really top of mind for me.

Henry Kaestner: That’s beautiful. Thank you very much for that. And thank you for your time today. This is why we do this podcast, as you are talking about how you thought through the concept of shared ambition, how you able to listen to a sermon from a pastor and say, what does that mean in terms of my life and what does that mean for my fund, my partnership, my relationship with our peers and new companies to think about the holy ambition that you can have and being a technology investor and how to be able to shape culture and be able to mentor and lead entrepreneurs that are trying to understand what is their value base, what is their north star? Can they pick any North Star or is there actually a one and only one North Star? What does that look like? Your ability to faithfully and wouldn’t similarly witness to that in a very secular world is really outstanding, is unparalleled, and it’s why we do this podcast.

Thank you for sharing your story and it’s been awesome to see your success. And I love you. Also, just as we close out, just the way that you guys got back together at the beginning of the year and said, OK, let’s revisit our vision of values, are we missing anything and let’s celebrate the success we’ve had. And to a certain extent, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And you’ve had a lot of success. But how do we get sharper and how do we pray together about how God would use this fund in our lives? And that’s super encouraging. So thank you.

Eric Kim: Thank you so much. Such a blessing to be with you all today. My partner is listening to this. I just want to call my my brother Kiwa sharpens me every day and again with other folks around us has really been just so instrumental, got used to actually in my life. And I just want to say I love you, brother, and thank you.

Thank you so much for joining us on today’s show. We’re very, very grateful for the opportunity to serve the larger faith driven investor community. Hey, the best way for you to stay connected is to sign up for our monthly newsletter at Faith Driven Investor Dog. And while you’re there, we, of course, want to hear from you. We derive great joy from interacting with many of you. And it’s been very rewarding to see people join the discussion now from all around the world. But it’s also very important to us that you feel like this is your show and that you’ll help make it something that best equips you on your journey, one that you’re proud of and one that you’ll share with others.

This podcast, it wouldn’t be possible without the help from many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Formate Program Director Johnny Wil’s Music by Karl Carl Chigwell. You can see and hear more of his work that summer, Drugstore.com and Audio and editing by Richard Bahle of Cornerstone Church in San Francisco.

Ron Blue: All of a sudden in five years, I had a national clientele, a rich, wealthy Christians who wanted to give, and that’s how the whole thing got started. And today, there’s ten thousand clients at that firm Serve’s that are giving away one hundred and fifty million a year. They’re managing about 12 billion in assets. And I look back and I realize how God prepared me to do what I did. I can take zero credit for it.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome to a special edition of the Faith Driven Investor podcast, From time to time, we’ll get involved in a broader definition of investing. And this is one of those times when we think about storing the wealth that guys entrust us with. Much of that is going to take place with investing in mutual funds and in stocks and bonds and venture capital, private equity, all the different topics that we have rolled out over the course of the last year and a half or so, over 75 or 80 podcasts with speakers like Frank Chen from Andreessen Horowitz, Andrew Stevens. And gosh, we’ve had just about every asset class. But lest we think that it’s just about investing that God cares about, which is different, of course, in a way, a lot of people think about it, the reverse of that as people just care about giving. But since we and you is listening to this podcast, subscribe to more of this one pocket mentality, that is we stored these assets. We have an opportunity to participate in the work that God is doing. We need to, from time to time, start focusing a bit on the giving side as well, and in some cases were called to go ahead and make that investment into the private equity fund or into the mutual fund. And in some cases, we’re called to be faithful to the giving opportunity that’s right in our midst. And so every once in a while, maybe every 10 episodes or so, we’ll get into that a little bit more deeply. And whenever we do that and do that with one of my best friends in the world, Darrell Heald, you probably know enough about my story by now to note, at age 28, I came to faith. At age 38, I had what I call my born again again moment when I met Darryl. And Darryl asked me the simple question, Henry, why do you give? And that sent me into God’s word. And it just changed my life. So whenever we have an opportunity to talk about this, I’d like to bring Darryl back on board. We’ve been partners in ministry and invested in so many things since that time 13 years ago, which I’m super grateful for today. We’ve got an incredible guest in Baila. So before I go any further, Darryl, welcome. Welcome to the program.

Darryl Heald: Thanks. And good to be on the program. And I’m super excited. You could have just skipped over any of my intro. Let’s go straight to our guests.

Henry Kaestner: Well, before we do that, we’re going to go almost straight to our guest from Blue. And Ron, by the way, welcome to the program. It’s awesome. Have with us back again

Ron Blue: a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I’d love talking to you guys.

Henry Kaestner: You’ve always been such a great encouragement to me talking about this, these formative experiences that God has put in my life in these really important relationships. Ten years ago, we started Sovereign’s Capital and it was Darryl that introduced us to you, and you went ahead and got it right away and said, I’ll do anything I can do to help you. And we asked if you’d be on our board of advisors and if we could get this guy who’s probably the biggest name in Christian investing and the generosity with which you said, yeah, absolutely. You know, if any way I can help you and you put my face on your website and just tell other people that you’ve talked to me and that blew me away. It blew me away. I’ll never forget. I’ve told you before, but I’m going to tell you and our listeners that again, as we’re getting ready, though, I was taking certain liberties with our relationship and I showed up this podcast nine minutes late. And what our listening audience may not know is that we on occasion will have several of these podcast recordings we do in sequence. And we just got off the podcast interview with Dallas Jenkins, who is the guy behind the chosen, and we’re talking about him. And he had a message. He also has known Ron, interestingly, and this is something Ron, I don’t think you knew, is that Ron hired Dallas well before he was famous to direct a video that Ron did, which I think is super cool. But one of the things that came up in the interview we had with Dallas was that somebody had come to him early on in his career and said Dallas. And I was on a Facebook post on a video he’d done, and he wasn’t sure that the film they had done had been received as well as he had hoped. And somebody from Romania four o’clock in the morning said, Dallas, your job is not to feed the 5000, it’s just to supply the five loaves and two fish. Now, they’re just beginning with what you have. And then, Ron, as I was explaining interest, apologizing for being late, you shared an anecdote that was very similar to that. And whenever I hear those repeated themes, it makes an impact in my life. It makes me feel like God is trying to tell me something and maybe as well. And you were talking about a time when you thought you showed up to an event and it wasn’t as well received. Or maybe there weren’t as many people there as you would have wanted in your bride. Told you what

Ron Blue: she said, Ron. She said God said feed the sheep, don’t count them. And it changed my whole perspective. You know, it just it took away the whole idea of how big the audience don’t make any difference. It may be an audience of one because you don’t know who God is going to put it in the audience and you don’t know what he’s going to say to them. So my job just to be faithful to deliver his message and he takes it from there however he wants to. So don’t count them. Just feed them. And appreciate. Henry, you’re feeding. Flock here of people that are really becoming serious, you know, when you get serious about your money, you’re serious about your faith, and when you put those two together, that’s a big deal. That’s why Jesus spoke so much about money, because it’s the greatest barrier to my relationship to the Lord. The God of Mammon steals that every single day. And we live in a culture that I think is the most difficult to live in because there’s so many temptations. And I don’t mean that in a condemning way, but I say, you know, I didn’t even know what I needed till I went to the mall and that and there’s billions of dollars being spent every day trying to make me discontent. And a lot of it gets through.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m still with you.

Ron Blue: It’s hard to live in this culture and have the proper perspective on money. So I’m delighted that you’re doing what you’re doing.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you. And to your point, we’re trying not to count our listeners in, but they know all three of them know that I love them. And Mr. Tony

Ron Blue: Abbott, your wife doesn’t count

Darryl Heald: two of them. Love I love.

Ron Blue: I’ll tell if

Henry Kaestner: you are one of those two people, though. You’ll know that we’ve had Ron on before. We featured Ron and one of our conferences, and he weren’t our first ever lifetime achievement award. And so some number of the folks listening to this are going to understand some of who you are in your background. But before we get into that, I really want Daryl to guide our conversation today because it’s something that’s so near and caught to who he is and and the ministry that guys got him on. But give us a flyover. Who is Ron Blue? What have you done? What is God done through you in your career? Bringing us up to speed real quickly and then going to go real deep on generosity?

Ron Blue: Well, can it real quickly. I turned 79 this year just a few months ago, and I was fine with that until I realized that I was living in my 80th year. Then I began to feel really bad

Henry Kaestner: right now that if we could all look as good as you do in our 80th year, then nobody would ever have to fear being 80, that’s for sure. But you’re now to be clear, you’re seventy nine.

Ron Blue: Right? And the good news is that before long I’m going to be able to shoot my age in golf. If I can live long enough,

Henry Kaestner: I’m not going to live that

Darryl Heald: long.

Ron Blue: Well, that quick story, I was raised in a Christian home, but I totally rejected the faith. And I went to college. I went to college to have a good time. I did got kicked out twice, got back and got married. That changed everything. Got my MBA from Indiana University in nineteen sixty seven and went to work on Wall Street with at that time Pete Margaret Mitchell and was with Pete Murray for three years, starting my own firm. I didn’t want to stay with the big firm, so I started a firm in Indianapolis which today is still going by the way and

Henry Kaestner: name on the door to

Ron Blue: the same name on the door. They don’t know who I am. Anyway, I spent seven years doing that and during that seven years my wife came to Christ in nineteen seventy two, asked me what I thought about that, and I threatened her with divorce because I was on the success track. Then I was an entrepreneur and I wanted to become wealthy and I was getting it. So she didn’t say anything for two years but she lived out first beta three and there was a godly woman that I there was something different. And so I prayed to receive Christ on my way to play golf. In nineteen seventy four, I had the four spiritual laws. I was by myself read through those and I said to the Lord, I don’t want to change anything, but I’m willing to be changed. And that day I shot a thirty six on the front side and I said, man, if I had known this how to become a Christian in a long time ago, if I got back on my game on the backside. But that led to joining Campus Crusade two years later and working in Africa for two years. I traveling to Africa. I made ten trips. But during that time I was also teaching leadership seminars and decision making seminars in the United States. I was gone 70 percent of the time and my wife, we were in a strange city when we moved to Atlanta. My income had gone from one hundred and fifty thousand to twenty five thousand and we had five kids below the age of 12 and she had a husband gone 70 percent of the time. And she called me at the office one day and she said, How do you get on Christian? And I said, What do you mean? She said that this is the abundant life I’ve had, all the abundance I can take. And what that led then was I was with Dr. Howard Hendricks, who was a friend and mentor, and he had been asking for financial advice from me. And I had been out of the financial world for a couple of years. But he said, would you take a look at my finances? Which I did, and I was able to sit down with him and Gene and say, you know what, Howie, you’re doing just fine. And it was like a load came off of his shoulders. This was in nineteen seventy nine. And now when I look back over those 40 some years, I realized that the question he was asking is really the question almost everybody wants the answer to, and that is how am I doing? They want to know the answer to that question, every one of us wants to know, and of course, it changes over time. So I felt like having traveled to Africa, that there was a lot of money in the United States. So I determined through a series of things that I wanted to help Christians plan to manage their money so they have more to give away. And that was not called financial planning at the time. Financial planning didn’t exist. There was no such thing as a CFP, and it was product sales or investment sales and insurance sales and so forth. But the first client that I had, he wanted to give a million dollars to Campus Crusade. I did not know him. He was a physician. And I said, well, what’s your income? He said, eighty two thousand a year. I said, What’s your net worth? He said, I don’t know, three or four hundred thousand. And so I’m thinking, there’s no way he can give a million dollars away. But God in his providence had done something. And that was the last couple of years as a CPA. I had done a lot of bank projection work and all it was was projecting cash flows over five years and working them out to a final net worth statement. So that’s what I did for this doctor. And it turned out he could give away a million dollars. He gave he had more property than he realized. He gave away his property, lowered his taxes, increase his cash flow, increases giving with Florida’s taxes were to increase his cash flow. And you worked all that out. And in five years, he could give away a million dollars and still have basically what he started with. And I thought there’s a lot more people like that. And I thought recently, what if he’d only wanted to give one hundred thousand? That would have been my bar. But it was a million, and so my bar became a million, and because he gave it to Campus Crusade, Dr. Bright asked me to speak at all of their donor events. And I would say, look, if you want to give away a million dollars or more, I can help you do that. And not only that, you can pay me to help you. And so I knew how to build a time based business, so I didn’t have to sell any product. And I knew how to do financial planning. And all of a sudden in five years, I had a national clientele, a rich, wealthy Christians who wanted to give. And that’s how the whole thing got started. And today, there’s ten thousand clients that the firm serves that are giving away one hundred and fifty million a year. They’re managing about 12 billion in assets. And I look back and I realize how God prepared me to do what I did. I can take zero credit for it. And it’s such a joy now to I can look back and say, wow, isn’t this great? And I’ll finish with this. What I found was the people that gave away those huge sums of money were the most joyful people I knew and the most contented. They were accomplishing something with the resources God had entrusted to them and they were experiencing the joy of giving. So they were good investors. They were good entrepreneurs, but they were better givers. And I don’t mean that on a comparative basis, but so I’ve had a great life. Henry, helping people give away money

Darryl Heald: your life, indeed. Thank you for sharing the history. What a legacy it’s got. I mean, it takes a while to tell a story when you start to your seventy ninth year.

Ron Blue: Yeah, but

Darryl Heald: I love you. So Henry and I know each other thirteen years, but Rodney and I’ve known each other over 30 years. Yeah. So I was the young real estate broker and the company I was working for actually owned the building where you all were Ozzfest. And so I was two floors below Rodell Balloon Company and I was going to church with a couple of the young financial planners that were working for Ron. And they started give me these books that he wrote, Money Matters and Money Matters for Your Kids. And I was very much influenced by Iran. And Judy, Kathy and I both have been. And one of the reasons why we did what we did, a lot of ways that we raised our kids around these money issues, giving and things like that were influenced by you. And I’m thankful. So we’re really grateful for that. And it’s kind of fun that our families are friends. We’ve served on a number of boards together as well. But Rodney, thanks for joining us today. One of the things that I know that I’ve heard you talk about a number of times is what are the impediments to giving? You have this triangle like why aren’t more people giving? Because you just gave this great example of this guys says, hey, I want to give a million and so on. But where is that kind of a state of giving? And in one sense, there’s a lot of resources out there. Occasionally we see a person like this doctor being generous. But what’s holding a lot of other people back?

Ron Blue: Well, I think if I were to boil it all down, Darryl, I think there’s three things that have to happen in giver’s life. No. One, there has to be transformation. You’ll never see maximum giving apart from transformation. So it begins with a heart attitude, a belief in what the Bible says about eternity and about my life here. But secondly, there needs to be intentionality. A lot of people give, but they really give out of their surplus. So they give large sums of money maybe, but they don’t necessarily maximize their giving unless they have intentionality. And I used to say there’s two questions. No one who owns it, you got to answer that question. But the second big question is, how much is enough? You know, how much is enough to accumulate, how much is enough on a lifestyle? And there’s not a right answer on that. There’s only a faith answer on it in the faith answer says, OK, God, what would you have me? And I would ask this way, how much do you want me to keep? And the rest I’ll give away. I love what Bob Buford, my friend, said to me one time, he had heard me ask that question, how much is enough? He said Ronnie said, I figured out how much is enough. I doubled it and gave the rest away.

Darryl Heald: I said,

Ron Blue: But that’s OK. He said, a finish line. And if you have a finish line, then the question becomes if you’re accumulating. Why am I accumulating more? And I believe so. There needs to be intentionality. But I think there’s a third thing that is very helpful in maximizing giving, and that is accountability. And I was in that business of providing accountability and I required all of my financial planners to have a financial planner, myself included. I have a financial planner. You know, I’ve written 20 books on finances, but actually read one book 20 times. But I have a financial planner because I can’t hold myself accountable. And Judy and I think differently a lot on the giving. She’s far more generous than I am. I mean, she’d give it all away. When we sold the business, I felt pretty good. She said, you know, God gave you all that. I said, you’re right. She said, you better give it all away so that when my retirement. But when she said that, then we told the financial planner what we were going to do. And so we’ve been held accountable to not accumulating them. And I would continue to accumulate if I didn’t have a financial planner holding me accountable to a decision that I felt like I had made at a particular point in time. Anyway, there are lots of stories about that. But I think transformation, intentionality and accountability are really three things that when they take place, you see maximized giving. And I will say this to that. I know that the only thing that breaks the power of money is giving. You ain’t got to open your hands or you’ll never experience the freedom of a relationship with Christ because you’ll always be there be two things to be going on. No one will be fair. And fear mentioned a lot in the Bible. And when you if you haven’t done that, there’s a fear of loss. And you obsessed with it, and that’s the biggest, you know, I talk and you’ve heard me say this, the paradox of prosperity and the paradox of prosperity is that the more you have, the more choices you have. Therefore, the more confusing it becomes. I mean, anybody that’s owned a boat knows what I’m talking about. When I sell the boat, they say it’s the second happiest day of their life, or if you own two homes or whatever it may be. And we’ve had two homes and I’ve had a boat and was happy with all of it was gone. But the more you had, the more choices you have and therefore the more fear of loss and the more confusing life becomes contrary to the American dream. And I’m not talking against people living well at all. That’s not the issue. God places people such as you guys, and I think probably such as the audience in positions of great influence because of the success they’ve had either invested in rebuilding their businesses. And that’s a good thing. And it’s OK to enjoy that. It says God gives me Rusty all things to enjoy. But he doesn’t say that joy should be my objective. He said also says right along with that, you’ve been given much in order to give much. So generosity, investment, entrepreneurship, they all tied together because they represent success in many ways, but then conquering the success by living generously.

Darryl Heald: That’s great. Thanks, Ron. I love those three things there. And so what is the so I mean, there is a significant financial services industry out there, right. That is looking to serve, you know, everyone listening to this podcast. So then what’s the disconnect with the current level of service and what you’re talking about? And if I’m kind of leaning in to what you’re saying right now as an investor and wanting to be more intentional, have that accountability, what does that look like?

Ron Blue: Well, the problem in the financial services world is that there’s a conflict of interest inherent in it. So, you know, when I tell people that my metric of success in the financial planning firm was how much our clients are giving away. Not how much we were accumulating, and today, if you would talk to around the blue adviser, they would talk about how much their clients give. And, you know, as a consequence of that, we almost never lost a client one. And number two, we almost never lost the client generationally. So now I’ve lived long enough to see people and I knew through it Kathee years and years ago. And he’s now in there for generations of the cafes. And they’re all working with advisors that are faith based, an advisor that is faith based and a client that is faith based, share the same language and the same value system. So if I’m an investor or an entrepreneur, I’m looking for an advisor. I want to know what that adviser believes. I want to know what motivates you. I want to know what he thinks about giving, because theoretically, if a client gives to a million dollars, I’ve lost the fees on a million dollars. What I found is when a client gave away a million dollars, got replaced with somebody who had two million. So I think there’s a scarcity mentality. And to me that is almost it just can’t be because the scarcity mentality says I serve a God who can’t create and I serve a God who’s not sovereign. I was once talking to a group of advisers and there were six Merrill Lynch advisors sitting next to one another. And I said, Are you guys in competition? And they kind of squirmed and I said, if you are you do not believe in a sovereign God, God can raise up those clients and he will. But, you know, faith, I see the evidence of faith in retrospect. I never see it in prospect. So I’ve got to make that decision, do that thing. That’s right. And then God honors that and blesses it.

Henry Kaestner: By that you mean you can see patterns in your life where God was faithful and blessed you in times when you didn’t see that happening. But it’s so much more difficult for us to anticipate how that pattern will continue in our lives. We’ve seen it time and time again about how God is provided right when we needed. And yet it’s so hard to just kind of project that forward as if God was sovereign and love me up until May. Twenty six, twenty twenty one. And then after that I was on my own.

Ron Blue: Yeah, well that’s true. And the life of faith never stops. You know, I struggle like everybody day to day. Now I do say this. I had good mentors and I do have a quiet time almost every day. And today I was meditating on abiding in Christ. What does that mean? You know, and it means total surrender. But I knew that, but I needed to know it again today. Yeah, and now it’s near the end of the day and I need to know it again. So the life of faith doesn’t end, but it is a life of fruitfulness and joy. Also, when you look back and, you know, I got the privilege now of looking back and not seeing what I did, but seeing what how God used even me. He used Balan’s as he could use me. And my wife taught me that

Darryl Heald: we love dearly. We love to feel. But what are the things that we actually just had a discussion on today? So we’ve seen this out of covid, this incredible rising market, so many asset prices going up so often. So one of the conundrums, it seems like with when we think about what we’re stupid in asset is like, if I think it’s going to continue to go higher, why give now? What would be your advice on that?

Ron Blue: That’s a great question. Yeah, I love that question. I used to get that a lot when I used to get it. When I was speaking to donor groups, they said, you know, if I’d give me a million dollars, I could make two million and I have more to give. So I said, well, let me let me give you an illustration. Most people know the magic of compounding. If I took ten thousand dollars and compounded it at twenty five percent over 40 years, it would grow to seventy three million dollars without adding another penny to it. If, on the other hand, it only compounded out at twenty four percent, same time period, it would be 52 million. So it’s the twenty one million dollar difference on one percentage point. Now the reason I say that is because what is God’s interest rate. Thirty fold. Sixty fold. One hundred and thirty fold is thirty thousand percent and sixty four to six thousand percent. Nine hundred dollars. Ten thousand percent. So how much is ten thousand dollars given to the kingdom. At ten thousand percent for all eternity. That’s the difference, so I want to do my given while I’m living, so I’m knowing where it’s going and I want it I want it invested in the kingdom because the return in the kingdom is far more than what the stock market’s going to return. So I use that illustration because people can grasp that and to say, well, I’m going to give when now you need to give right now and say something else. I think you need to give some cash to nondeductible cash. And I got this from a pastor who he did this and I picked up the example. So it was not mine, but I carry cash in my pocket and I look for people that are unnoticed. The most unnoticed are those who clean the bathrooms in airports, and so when I go out and I do a lot of flying, so when I go in the bathroom, I look for that cleaner and they’re always standing in the corner head down, sometimes not saying anything. And you walk over and you give them 20 dollars or forty dollars or one hundred dollars, whatever it may be. And the joy that you see on their face, that’s far more fun, if you will, than writing a big check to a ministry that had a guy followed me out one time and he said, I saw what you did. Why did you do that? And I said, listen, I am so blessed. I want to share that blessing with somebody else I love.

Darryl Heald: Rod, one of my favorite stories you have, why don’t you tell our audience is the Chick fil A’s story, the lady that.

Ron Blue: Yeah, I’ll make it short. I used to take my son many years ago to breakfast every Friday, one of my sons to and there was this lady named Rex and she worked at Chick fil A. We’d always meet at the Chick fil A and she was always the most pleasant, smiling and so forth. If she got saucy when I opened the door, she would have our meal ready for us because we’re always ordered the same thing. So I was walking out one day and I thought, I wonder if you can keep a fast food waitress. And I’ve never done that. So the Lord convinced me to tip her, give her something. So I reached in my pocket and I pulled out of twenty and the Lord said, You cheapskate, you got a lot of toys. And I said, Oh, no. So I took five hundred dollars and I followed him up. I went back in and I said, Can you take a tip? Is it OK? She said, yes. So I gave her one hundred dollars. She didn’t know how much it was and walked out. And the next week I was back in the chick Ticketfly and I was before my son had come and she came over to the table and she said, I was so happy. When you gave me the money last week, I needed a new set of tires, she said. But when I got home, my daughter, who was in high school, came home and there was a girl in her class who had had a fire in their apartment and they lost everything. She said they needed the money worse than I did. And so I had the ability to give that hundred dollars to that family. And I thought, man, I gave out of my abundance and she gave out of her property at that impacted me, I mean, and convicted me for sure. So I encourage people who you can give a lot of money away, but I encourage people to give some cash away to give it away. We’ve got a family that has ten kids that, you know, here in Atlanta. They had two of their own and they adopted three from Africa and then a family. The parents died and they adopted all five of them. So they have ten. So at the end of the year, Judy said we need to give them some money. We go to Costco every now and then fill up some cards and take it over there to them. But she wanted us to write them a check. And I thought, well, if I write that the helping hands, it’ll be deductible, but they’ll also take their percent. So I wrote the check and we drove over there and we gave it. And that type of giving is is just blessed giving. I really enjoy that. And I don’t want I don’t want to talk about me in the sense of I’m so good because I am not naturally generous by any means. I’m naturally pretty selfish. And, you know, I like nice things. I like to fly first class. I like to drive a Lexus, but I God won’t let me drive a brand new Lexus anymore. I have to buy. I used to run ride.

Darryl Heald: I mean, we could love to hear more stories than all, but why don’t we do this? I mean, because you have helped people do all this planning. So you talk about this blessed giving. What is your allocation look like? Kind of know we think about asset allocation all the time. And and so I’ll go from a giving standpoint, what is your advice on what are the dimensions and all in a giving allocation?

Ron Blue: Well, no one there’s nobody including Bill Gates or Warren Buffett that has enough money to solve all the needs. So you can’t solve every need with money. And so I generally counsel people. Where’s your heart? You know, what’s your passion? One of the things that you think are important, you can give broadly, but have again, I’ll come back to this intentionality. What is it that you really want to give to that you’re committed to? And I think husbands and wives need to be talking about this together because they probably have different interest. And that’s OK, that’s the way we grow. So I think giving it’s not an allocation. Well, I do believe in tithing to the church, but that’s the beginning point. I don’t really consider that the giving. I mean, it is. Yes, but the real giving takes place after that. I’m giving out of obedience. I want to give out of obedience, but I also want to give out of desire. So what is it that motivates me and that can change over time? So I can for people, it’s not necessarily an allocation. The Bible talks about giving to widows, giving the orphans, giving to the poor for sure, and giving to the church. But there’s a lot of ministries and I want to attach my money to my heart when it comes to giving. So I have things that I like and things that Judy likes. You know, it is funny because every time we get a letter from John Erickson, I know it’s going to cost me money because Judy loves Johnny. She loves the minister. We’ve known John for 40 some years and that’s a passion. So any time Johnny goes, she gets money because it’s a passion. So I said, give her your passion is tell your heart to your money in terms of your giving. So, yeah, I’m sorry, Daryn, when you’re asking me questions, you’re asking me questions in my sweet spot.

Darryl Heald: Why does the government. So what is that? Let’s say your blessed peace is like how much percentage of your giving and what do you all look like it? What about global? What about, you know, nationally? How do you kind of break that down and think about some of the different buckets that you’re giving to?

Ron Blue: We made a decision early that we like to give to people, so we give a lot to missionaries. We made a decision along that line that people that are working in Third World countries have more difficulty in raising money than they do in America. So we have a tendency to get more internationally when we’re giving to missionaries and missions than we do in this country. We like to give it comes down to people. What’s the impact on people? So the sex trafficking, the poor, that’s where we like to put our money and that’s our passion. I heard today we have high school curriculum on personal finance and we charge the school twenty five dollars a student to give them the curriculum. The guy that heads up our high school ministry and our institute read a testimony today of a high school junior who how, having gone through the class, it had changed the direction of his life to wanting to be in ministry. And that’s where he was going. And he said, twenty five dollars bought a changed life. That type of thing means a lot when you’re giving and I think we’d like to give to where we see the results. Also, it’s hard to give some place that you’re not tied to, literally tied to. So we pray about it a lot. We don’t give to everything that comes to our door by any means. And I don’t feel guilty and not giving because God has given us the ability to give. He’s given us the places to give and I can’t give every place. And in some cases it may be if I give, somebody else doesn’t have to give. So I don’t feel guilty at all about turning down requests for money.

Darryl Heald: Thanks, Ron. Another thing to where I’m just curious with I’m sure a lot of the listeners probably have children, grandchildren and all how you, Judy, have written on this before, but could you give us some ideas on how we can help our kids or grandkids understand that it’s more blessed to give our safe?

Ron Blue: Well, there’s two things about training children that can really sum it up. And I had a father asked me one time, how do you train your kids to manage money? And I said two things. No one more is caught than taught. So they’re going to do what you do. That’s the biggest factor in how kids handle money and think about money, and I said, the second thing is you learn to manage money by managing money. And that’s the really hard thing today. And a credit card society of having your kids manage money. But there needs to be a way and there are ways that they can do that. And that same father said to me later, he said, I realized when you said that, that because I do online giving my kids had never seen me tithe. And we didn’t talk about it because we had made that decision. We did our online giving so they’d never seen me tithe. So just think about it. What am I doing to communicate the values of giving one? And number two, how can I train my children to manage money? And here’s the mistake that parents make. They don’t let their kids make mistakes, especially the wealthy. I see they can afford to bail them out. And I don’t mean out of jail, but they can afford to do a lot of things. So what would that look like?

Darryl Heald: What how would you set that? What would be a couple of suggestions that you would say, hey, you know, you should try these couple of things?

Ron Blue: Well, no one intends on the age. OK, so we started training our kids. By the time the youngest was eight, we kind of had the system figure it out. And so we gave them a budget to buy their clothes and we knew that they would have spending money needs, that they would have needs to make gifts to Christmas and so forth. And we wanted them to say, but we wanted them to tithe. So we gave them money and we did it on a monthly basis so that they had to manage the money. So when you give them one twelfth of their clothes, money. In February, they don’t have to buy their school clothes until August, so they had to learn to say, but they also had to learn that when the envelope was empty, they were done and we allowed them in some cases to trade from one envelope to another, with the exception of tith in savings. But there had to be their ability to make the financial decisions. So somehow you probably need to help him set a budget and then figure out the management side of it, especially with the credit cards today, because cash, you just don’t deal with cash much anymore.

Henry Kaestner: Rob, it’s awesome to have you on the show, thank you for joining us, Henry, so glad to be with you. This is super cool for me because, you know, you’ve done and to be clear, we haven’t done very many of these across Faith Driven Entrepreneur and feature an investor, but it’s infrequent that I find somebody who is a guess who’s done infinitely more of these than we have. And you’re a radio guy and you’ve done this a long time. And I got to tell you, it’s a little intimidating to talk to a guy who’s actually a radio host and interviewing him.

Rob West: Well, with podcasting these days, just about everyone is doing this kind of thing. So you’re right, though. I do host a radio program every afternoon, but I’ve really been looking forward to this conversation and so excited about the work of faith driven investor.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you for joining us. So I know a lot of our listeners and we’ve heard this feedback already. A lot of our listeners are financial advisors. A lot of our listeners are their clients, but a lot of people who have as a profession to help people understand how to steward the wealth that’s been entrusted to them. So this is a big deal for us to hear from you today. But to start talk to us about this program that you’ve got and the platform that you have. And what is Kingdome Advisors?

Rob West: Yeah, well, I appreciate that question, Henry, and, you know, I would start by saying King of Advisors is really leading what we call an industry of Christian financial advice. We have the privilege of serving about thirty one hundred Christian financial advisors in the U.S. and Canada. Really one of the main objectives there is to provide advocacy for these advisors who we like to say are specialists in bringing biblical wisdom to bear alongside competent financial advice.

We also issue a designation, as you know, Henry certified Kingdome advisor, which is really positioned in the market as the gold standard for biblically wise financial advice among believers and those who want to align their faith with their financial decisions at a professional level. We also provide community for these financial advisors through more than 250 study groups that meet in the US and Canada. These are small groups of advisors and right now they are happening virtually, even though typically they would be mainly in-person meetings. We do an annual conference every year, which we say is the industry gathering. And we could talk about that a little later in our time together today. And then, of course, we offer training and tools where we deliver a step by step process for advisors who want to be confident in bringing this biblical financial advice to their clients. And then to your earlier mention of the radio program, we also have another ministry under Kingdome Advisors called Money Wise and Money Wise. Media is really our ministry where we share these principles with the public through our nationally syndicated radio programs. We’re reaching about a million Christians a week and then many more through the podcast.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so I want to ask a lot of that, but I want to start with the Origin story. So Kingdome Advisors has obviously been around for a while. If you’ve got thirty one hundred people coming to that annual event, by the way, I’ve been at some of your events there worldclass. Tell us about how it all got started.

Rob West: Yeah, well, so we’d have to go back to nineteen ninety seven, Larry Birkhead, the late Larry Birkhead, who’s most well known for the books that he wrote, he had a radio program that was probably one of the first in the space of about a thousand radio outlets. And Larry brought together 16 Christian financial professionals and they formed what was called the Christian Financial Planning Institute with a commitment to delivering biblically wise financial advice. Well, fast forward a number of years and really they expanded their vision to create a new organization that would really be responsible for taking the lead and reaching the Christian financial professional community. So at the time, they reached out to Ron Blue, who’s a friend of yours and mine. And Ron, of course, an author, was the founder and is the founder of Rodell Blue and Company. Ron had built what is today still the largest Christian financial planning and wealth management firm anywhere, and with about 90 advisors at the time, the certainly larger now they were helping Henry. Many Christian families steward their resources. But what was fascinating was their clients were giving away tens of millions of dollars annually to Kingdome causes. And I think the reason really was that these advisors had a real sense of calling the Praxis was their ministry. They saw it that way. There was tremendous cultural reinforcement, if you will, within the organization. And they demonstrated that biblical financial wisdom worked at a professional level. And of course, it would, because it comes right out of God’s word. Well, Larry, and these 16 advisors approached Ron and asked him to take over as CEO of what would later become Kingdome Advisors with this expanded vision. And really the rest is history. We now have these 30, 100 advisors that we serve and the organization is really growing significantly.

Henry Kaestner: Salamat understand the difference. So you’re your customer.

You’re somebody who’s been entrusted with wealth at any level that’s listening to this and you’re trying to figure out what does a Christian financial advisor give me their second wouldn’t. So presumably a secular financial advisor wants to help you plan for retirement and college planning and things. You might need a medical emergency. How is that different from a Christian perspective?

Rob West: Yeah, and we serve really financial professionals in one of five disciplines, if you will. So the financial planners, the investment professionals, but also CPAs and accountants, also insurance folks and then finally estate planning attorneys. But you would expect from every adviser, of course, experience, integrity, competence, and we measure all of those for our designation. We have an experience requirement and they have to abide by a code of ethics and the statement of faith. And we require pastor and client references and regulatory review and the like. But really, to your question, you know, I think I can read the difference from their secular counterpart is in the ability to bring advice that aligns with the values and priorities of Christians know there are real planning differentiators.

When you lay a biblical worldview on top of financial decision making, it changes how you approach accumulation and lifestyle and legacy and wealth transfer and generosity. And to our conversation today, investing as well.

So an advisor who understands the heart of God related to money through the more than 2000 verses on the subject, in God’s word. Well, he or she can ask different questions and really assist the client in being a faithful steward of all that God has entrusted to them. You know, I think the other difference, though, Henry, is that a certified Kingdome adviser, somebody who’s really a specialist in this area, understands that money issues are ultimately heart issues. We talked about, Larry Briquette really founding the Christian Financial Planning Institute, which later became CSPI. Larry used to say that the way we handle money is the clearest indicator into what’s going on in our lives spiritually. It says where we placed our trust, it says what we value. And if something is going to dethrone God from first position in our lives, it’s most often going to be money. So I believe the Christian advisor really can help clients hold what they have loosely understand that their financial journey in many ways shapes their spiritual journey and really underscore Henry the importance of giving generously.

Henry Kaestner: So you mentioned something along the way I thought is really important in the 2000 verses to talk about money and investing in the Bible. And I would imagine that one of the greatest challenges that any financial advisor has is in working with a couple, a husband and a wife who may have different views of money. And if you’re just looking at a secular perspective with kind of a, you know, a relative truth perspective, it may be very difficult to be able to bring a couple together around how to think about how to steward money or how to think about generosity, et cetera. But it’s got to be really helpful for that financial adviser to say, listen, you know, one of. This brings us together is this belief that there’s a God who loves us and that he has this handbook, if you will, handbook is not the right way to probably talk about the word of God. But nonetheless, there’s this great scriptural reference to help you as a couple to process through things like generosity and wealth over the generations, et cetera. To that extent, I suppose maybe it’s easier for Christian financial advisor to help people.

Rob West: Yes, well, I think you’re exactly right, and especially right now, through the times in which we find ourselves in the midst of a pandemic, I think advisors and clients alike want to know that they’re receiving advice. They’re delivering advice that’s rooted in something transcendent, that it’s bigger than them. And as Ron Blue likes to say, you know, biblical wisdom is always right. It’s always relevant. It’s never going to change. And we know that’s true. But you bring up a really key point here. And that is as to the couple, you know, this is really critical. We’re big fans of the work of Jeff and Shante Feldheim, who just completed a three year long study on men, women and money and wrote a book about it. And we just I interviewed Shauntay a couple of weeks ago on it. And, you know, she was uncovering this idea that 70 percent of married couples have real difficulty communicating about money. And one of the top reasons for it is there’s a misalignment or a misunderstanding of how their values connect to their money. And so this is really the opportunity for the advisor. And I would say even more so for the Christian advisor to be able to lean into that and say, let’s work together, husband and wife, on uncovering your values. What’s important to you? And how can money as a tool be used as an expression of those values? And that brings them together instead of driving a wedge in the relationship?

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, it’s powerful. I’m completely with you, especially in the context of giving how much is enough? What’s our finish line starting with that? And then, of course, from then so many other things come in tax planning and succession planning and how much to for the kids, etc.. Let’s get back to you. Talked about Ron being a key part of picking up the mantle from Larry Birkhead. We’re huge fans around here. You mentioned he’s a friend. He’s been a great adviser to us for the last dozen or so years. And pretty much anything that I’ve done and I know continues to be integral in the work that you guys do, a kind of advisers. How is his influence affected you? And just, you know, perspective a guy that’s been doing this for 50 plus years, the larger faith driven investor movement, and it doesn’t sound like he’s slowing down.

Rob West: No, no, it’s it’s amazing. He’s actually busier than ever, doing really important work through the round words do, but still very heavily involved in Kingdome advisors and the work that we do and as a monthly contributor to money wise and money wise radio programs as well. I don’t know how he does what he does to his influence on me personally, Henry. I would just say he’s been one of the most significant mentors in my life. So Howard Dayton is another giant of the faith. And Ron Blue, it’s just been incredible that the Lord has allowed them to speak into my life in the ways that they have. Ron’s an amazing visionary. I’ve learned so much from him on that. I think probably the most significant thing that has stood out to me about his life is just the integrity with which he has conducted himself and his ministry over the decades. He is who he says he is, and he’s the same guy, whether he’s on the stage or he’s at home with his wife, Judy. So he is just an amazing man, that God is used in significant ways and continues to. But his influence on this space has been enormous. He, I would say, is the founder of Christian Financial Planning. You know, his work to pioneer the delivery of biblical financial advice at the professional level is really the foundation for all of the training we do today. Kingdome Advisors. Although Ron’s work was really focused in the planning areas, he was really clear from the very beginning that this idea of faith based investing was really a conviction or a conscience matter that Christians needed to wrestle with. And I really think that as the faith driven investment space matures with now so many world class investment solutions being created that are uniquely designed for the Christian advisor and ultimately investor, there’s a true industry of Christian financial advice for these investments to live within. That is a direct result of Ron and his work ethic.

Henry Kaestner: So tell me more about the you mentioned in industry. So it’s much more than just a conference. There’s actually there’s many aspects to it. You talked before about five different kind of professionals that come in from attorneys all the way through. Tell us more about this growing industry.

Rob West: Yeah, well, it’s really one of the most exciting things that has come out of our work at Kingdome Advisors in the last five years. Henry, we’re just thrilled that there now exists today a true industry of Christian financial advice. And you would think about it, as you could call it, a specialty. But we really refer to it as an industry because there’s so many different pieces and parts of it. Of course, it’s a subset of the larger financial services industry and some of the components we’ve now got. Fifteen hundred certified Kingdome advisors. So we’ve got these thirty, thirty, one hundred members of Kingdome Advisors we serve more than fifteen hundred have earned the designation to be held out to the public last year. Forty eight. And Christians searched for a local certified kingdom adviser to connect with in their community, and so there’s a growing demand on the part of Christians for this, datelined advice and investment solutions. Fifty firms have now approved certified kingdom adviser. And if you know anything about what’s happening in designations in the financial services industry, there’s less and less of them that are being recognized. And so the fact that 50 firms, including some of the biggest firms up and down Wall Street, having approved for use and some of those major firms even approving Scriptura to be used in financial plans by these advisors is just a huge step forward.

You know, we’re seeing significant coverage of the Christian financial industry in the financial media. So we’ve been featured in The Wall Street Journal and Financial Planning magazine and FDE magazine. I mean, it’s Yahoo! Finance. You know, there’s a real interest in what’s happening across this space.

One of the most exciting pieces of this industry, Henry, that’s taken off in the last several years because of the work at not only Kingdome Advisors, but the ROMBA Institute is the number of Christian universities that are now bringing this training into their financial planning degree programs so they can train up and graduate future financial advisors that are ready to enter this business as a specialist and then biblically wise financial advice. And so we’re thrilled about that. And then I could point to many more evidences. But the last one I’ll mention is just, I think, directly related to our conversation today. And that is just the incredible number of investment solutions that are being created, uniquely suited for the Christian advisor in this whole faith driven investing space that are just such high quality investments and the growing number of them, even just in the last couple of years. I think it’s just real evidence of what’s taking off in front of us.

Henry Kaestner: So tell us a little bit more about some of the things that you’ve seen. What are some of the new funds that are out there, the new vehicles?

Rob West: Well, you know, one of the things that’s been helpful for us is to really think about these faith based investments in three categories. And so there would be, of course, the investments where we embrace certain things. So we’re screening in companies that have either a social or Kingdome impact. Perhaps you can call it a triple bottom line in some cases where, you know, looking through the investments and options out there and these, you know, investments are then bringing in companies that really are making a difference in the world. And, you know, there’s a growing number of those in both ETFs and, you know, private equity and mutual fund and obviously individual investments as well. Then in the second category of avoid, obviously, the growth in this area of the screening tools that are available and the number of growing solutions that are available to advisors who their clients really want to make sure that they leave out those companies that would in some way conflict with their values and priorities. And then this whole idea of shareholder engagement engages that third category. And it’s really been fun to see just a growing number of investments and firms that are really helping their clients, who are owners in companies, engage companies around their values and let their values be known and to see some of the differences that are being made as a result of that. And then just the quality of these investments that are winning industry awards and being recognized for not only just being high quality, but having stellar performance. You know, we didn’t see the number of investments, certainly not the quality of the investments that exist today, even just a couple of years ago. And so I think it’s really a new day for advisors who want to lean into the space with their clients.

Henry Kaestner: So I know it’s probably awkward for you because you represent this larger industry to single out any particular mutual funds or mutual fund families. And so I’m not going to put you on the spot for that. But I know of several. And and this is absolutely something for somebody to listen to his podcast to be able to talk through with their financial professional. It doesn’t take much research to find some of the ones that are great tortas about. You mentioned private equity. Traditionally, we think about some of the brokers that I used to back in the early 90s, worked at Merrill Lynch. So some of the wire houses are able to offer certain products that may be different than some of the independent financial planners and some of the independent financial planners may have access to be able to present some things with a little bit more latitude and maybe some wire houses. Like, for instance, I’m thinking now about some of the new investment opportunities that are going on in Eastern Europe, where there is investment in things that are bringing about God’s kingdom in Eastern Europe or in Africa. I think maybe about a couple that might come back from a missions trip to Rwanda and having encountered just really compelling entrepreneur, that’s got a great opportunity for agricultural investing. Tell us about the nuance or the different levels of the industry and where some advisers can get involved in some things and maybe some other ones can.

Rob West: Well, you’re exactly right. It really is going to depend on what type of firm they have, how they’re registered, what firm they work for, or whether they are truly independent as a registered investment advisor. So obviously, those that work at firehouses are going to have certain constraints as to the types of investments that are approved for use with their clients. Obviously still a plethora of solutions, all that they need to serve their clients well, including in this area of faith based investing among the big firms. And that’s one of the things that we’re so excited about as this industry continues to grow, is the number of really household name warehouses that are proving C.K. and allowing these faith based investment solutions to exist on their platform. But when you get into some of these private equity deals and you get into investments that are unregistered or require you to be accredited, you know, obviously those are going to be reserved in most cases for an independent advisor, either who has a broker dealer who’s willing to allow these solutions to be used or whether they’re truly just an RIAA making their own decisions, using a custodian, but ultimately able to then, you know, use and have access to a greater variety of unregistered securities, of course, for the right type of investor that meets a certain minimum net worth and so forth. So depending upon where the advisor is in this industry, he or she may or may not have access to the types of investments that you’re talking about. But clearly, there is a trend toward independent in the industry, which would mean simply that a growing number of advisors would have access even to the type of exciting things that you’re describing.

Henry Kaestner: So a couple of things come up for that. But first of all, I ask is on the SEC side, you’ve got 1500 now. Presumably there’s a place on the King of Advisors website where you can go and you can find out how you can find somebody.

Rob West: Absolutely. Both that kingdom advisors, dotcom and money wise, ERG. Like I said, just shy of 50000 Christians search for a certified Kingdome adviser in their city last year, and we’re seeing similar numbers this year.

Henry Kaestner: OK. And on that site, you’ve got a section that’s dedicated to biblically based response to market turmoil. Titus, through that a little bit, it’s been a crazy time. And what are some of the things that somebody might find on that section?

Rob West: Yeah, we are really excited to be able to put that together in response to covid-19. We just knew that it was a unique season for advisors and the clients that they serve. And so they went through kind of this triage phase, as so many advisors did in the early days of that with the incredible market gyrations, just needing to contact advisors or clients. And, you know, one of the real challenges of this particular crisis was that in other times of crisis, you know, we would come together in community to process it. Know, I remember right after 9/11 going over to my parents house and meeting my siblings there, and we just kind of all sat around and debriefed. And, you know, one of the real challenges here in the early days of covid and now to some degree still today was that people were isolated. And so it just created, you know, the fear really led to a rational thinking and behavior. And so much of that, you know, was realized in the form of irrational decision making in their finances. So these advisors were just really trying to come alongside their clients and triage the situation. And now they’ve kind of settled into a new normal, if you will, you know, with lots of meetings and just reacting and responding to what’s going on around them. But we created this resource that king of advisors, Dotcom’s covid-19, where we wanted to offer just spiritual encouragement to these advisors. That’s a big part of what we do for this community that we serve to bring industry thought leaders to the table. That could just be a real source of trusted counsel and insights. And then really in this third area, help them navigate client conversations as they really bring to bear this time tested wisdom into the conversation and help them lean into this role in which they serve as counselor or coach, you might say.

Henry Kaestner: So what’s it like for a Christian financial advisor in a time like this? covid is meaning that you can’t get together and look at a bunch of charts together with your clients. I imagine that some part of that makes it more efficient, but some part of that makes it less relational. What are you hearing from the folks you serve?

Rob West: Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, just from a real practical sense, obviously, as in just about every other industry, there’s just a lot happening virtually through video conference. And so, you know, we’ve heard from some advisors that are building Zoome studios in their offices and thinking about how do we create a unique experience, everything from the audio quality to the lighting to, you know, how do we engage?

Because that’s probably one of these. Changes that’s going to stick where there’s some segment of the client base that is going to want to choose that option to meet, you know, moving forward and a greater percentage. And so that’s just one of the practical sides of it, obviously just managing through it as they have a remote workforce and just all the implications related to that. But then I think, Henry, as it relates to just the way in which they serve their clients, you know, we talk at King and Advisors about the four roles of an adviser, that of adviser, of course, that of leader, that of counselor, coach, and then finally disciple maker. And I think there are unique opportunities in each of those during this season. I mean, certainly as an advisor, I think one of the greatest things they can bring is just perspective, reminding them that God is in control and that he cares for them and that he is their provider and just kind of putting all of this uncertainty and unrest in a proper perspective, I think in the area of leader just bringing that biblical financial truth, that transcendent wisdom that transcends time and tax codes and markets and all of it, and really just reminding them of those bedrock principles, if you will, in the area of Councilor Koch. I think there’s a unique opportunity for these Kingdome advisors to listen, to acknowledge the feelings of their clients, to help them process the fear that they have. And I think, you know, for many of their clients to replace that with faith and really just lean in to that unique opportunity. And then finally, the opportunity for disciple maker just to really kind of help them process this on their own spiritual journey. So there’s a unique opportunity, I think, here. And so many of our advisors are encouraged just really about the doors that the Lord is opening, even just in the area of prayer, just as they find this as a season where they can pray more regularly with their clients, perhaps, than they have previously now.

Henry Kaestner: So you guys are known for an incredible gathering. I mentioned it before. It happens in Orlando each year. And you’ve got a number of other gatherings, some of which I’ve been to one in Nashville last year was outstanding. You introduced me to the world of Matamoras music and saw forever be grateful. I was outstanding. What does it look like for you all this year as you’re doing gatherings, or are you also moving to them? What are you going to do in Orlando?

Rob West: Yeah, so great question. And we obviously are doing a lot of things virtually. We have a remote workforce right now. So our team at Kingdome Advisors and money wise are all working from home with the exception of just the daily radio broadcast and a team of producers and coast graders and engineers that make that happen. But everybody else is working from home.

And so there’s just a real practical reality of how we’re working as a team, but it affects how we serve our members as well. Fortunately, the certified Kingdome advisor educational program that we offer, which is the training prerequisite for the Kingdom Advisor designation, which is a 50 hour program, is an online program offered through Liberty University, Indiana Wesleyan University. So those cohorts continue to go on on a self-paced basis and are instructional mentors, are working with them remotely, as they always have. I mentioned these 250 study groups that we offer around the U.S. and Canada. These are small groups of advisors that come together every month around original content that we produce in our studio and send out or stream. And they usually meet in person and around a 90 minute meeting to watch and discuss the material. Well, that’s all happening virtually. So that’s obviously a big change. And then, yes, this big annual gathering we do we were expecting between 1800 and 2000 Christian financial advisors in Orlando next February. And because of covid and the social distancing, we had to make the decision this summer. And we’ve just actually recently announced this publicly, that we’re actually moving to a virtual event this coming February. So our 20 21 conference will be an online experience, but it’s going to be anything other than perhaps what you have in your mind when you think of an online conference. It’s going to be the best of what Kingdome Advisors brings to the table. And this really is one of our unique competencies to create remarkable moments and really to deliver a world class conference. It’s going to be the best of what we deliver, but in the most accessible format ever. And so we’re actually really excited about it. We’re going to be planning for every bit of eight months. We’re going to be the best speaker lineup we’ve ever had. There’s going to be ways for this growing number and we think will be between three and four thousand advisors that will participate in it to search on a very granular basis for other advisors that have similar interests or practice types and connect with them. It’ll have the largest virtual exhibit hall we’ve ever had. There will be interaction with all the breakout speakers live. There’ll be a real engagement opportunities and a variety of other areas worship. So it’s going to be great. And I think, Henry, as much as we love to be together each year and we. Can’t wait to be back together in person in the future with the industry. Christian advice, we think this is a unique season for 20 21 to actually through this virtual conference to expose many, many more advisers to this industry than we ever have before, because there’s a certain number that just have never taken the trip to Orlando. And once they get there and experience it, they always come back. But until they experience it, it’s really hard to describe it. So I think we could really exponentially grow this community this year through this virtual gathering that’ll happen February 17th through the 19th of 2021 was that it comes up we want to do our part, making sure people know about it.

Henry Kaestner: Rob, one of the things we like to ask any one of our guests on any one of our programs is what you’re hearing from God personally and his word. Maybe it’s in a study group. Maybe it’s with your wife, maybe this morning. But what’s something that you’re hearing from God speak to you about from the Bible?

Rob West: Yeah, I appreciate you asking. You know, I’ve been studying recently the book of Mark and the Gospel of Mark. And, you know, this particular thing that just jumped off the page to me recently, Henry, I think relates directly to what we’re talking about here today. And it won’t be unfamiliar to you. It’s Mark four and it’s the parable of the solar. And what’s fascinating to me is just, you know, when the disciples are questioning Jesus around really the implications of this story that he’s just told about this parable of the sower, and they wanted to know what these various soils represented. And, you know, when he describes what choked out the word from burying a 30 60 hundredfold return in the soldiers lives, he says that it’s the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things. And I think that’s just so fascinating, because if you go back to what I was saying earlier at the kind of the beginning of our time together is that, you know, the love of money has the potential to be one of the most common things that will dethrone God from first position in our lives. And I think that’s exactly what this passage in Parable is speaking to, is that the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things, which probably is going to in many cases be material possessions, that has the potential to choke out the word from bearing fruit in our lives. And so God has just really been impressing upon me the unique opportunity we have to think differently about what God has entrusted to us. And I think that really underscores, if you will, the opportunity of the Christian advisor as well.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a great word and a great one to end on. Rob, thank you very much for joining the program, looking for the next time we get together. And it sounds like we’ll have an opportunity to participate virtually in February and hopefully will connect before then. Thank you for being on the program.

Rob West: It was a joy. Henry, I appreciate the invitation and I’ll look forward to be back with you again real soon.

Intro [00:00:00] You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ-following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening. 

Intro [00:00:17] Hey, everyone, all opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. And this podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening. 

Richard Cunningham [00:00:44] Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast. Awesome to have you with us. It is the beginning of April. It has been a wild start to the year in the markets, to say the least. Just a little bit of volatility and uncertainty. We’ll use the T word today, which is tariffs, I’m sure, many times. And we’ll get into that. It’s been long overdue for us to do just a proper kind of macro look at the markets and the economy. And because of that, we have brought in the big guns of market commentary to join us. So we are joined by the one and only Bob Doll from CrossMark. John Coleman, it’s great to have you back in the co-host seat, as I know it’s been a couple of weeks since we’ve had you in the FDI podcast co- host seat. And so gentlemen, welcome onto the pod. Great to have your guys with us. John, we’ll start with you as a quick hello and then we’ll go over to Bob. 

John Coleman [00:01:28] Yeah, Richard, so great to see you. It is such an interesting and fun time in markets. And I’ll tell you, it’s always fun when I get to appear alongside Bob Dahl. Bob is obviously a hero of mine in the industry. I think he’s a hero, a lot of other people, someone I admire so deeply, one of the smartest guys in investments today, always a great communicator. So I just feel privileged to be here. You said the big guns, and I’m viewing that as like, there’s one really small gun, and then Bob has enough big guns for all of us. So. I’m super excited to hear what he has to say today. 

Bob Doll [00:01:59] Well, my privilege to be part of this as well, gents. It’s a crazy world we live in. Thankfully, we have a God on the throne who knows all the answers. And we take a stab at it, and sometimes we get it right, and oftentimes we get wrong, but we have fun in the process. 

Richard Cunningham [00:02:16] Amen to that. Well, Bob, it’s great to have you. Hey, the last time we had you was almost this time last year on the Faiths of an Investor podcast and you graciously unpacked your kind of 2024 expectations and predictions as at that time we were one quarter into the year. Here we are one quarter into 2025. It’s maybe that’s a great place to start is if you go back in the time machine a little bit and just kind of reflect on 24. I mean, you had another solid year of kind of predictions as that dovetails in and sets the stage for what we have seen kind of. here in Q1 of 2025. They’re recording this for everyone’s context on April 1st. I know April 2nd is quite a big day, quote unquote liberation day, as we kind of find out what Trump’s tariff policy will be. So we’re missing that by roughly 24 hours. But Bob, let’s go back and look at 24 as we kinda set the stage for what’s happened here in q1 of 25. 

Bob Doll [00:03:05] Sure. It seems like forever ago that we came out with our 24 predictions. I guess I’d sum up. First of all, our outside grader gave us a seven out of 10. So not a bad year. Nice. Having said that to be a bit and appropriately self-critical, we were too cautious as many people were both about the economy and risk asset stocks in particular, the economy chugged along. I think the underestimation on many of our parts. was how much power there was in the money. That is to say, post COVID, the excess savings that high end consumers had accumulated because they didn’t spend money during COVID and lower end consumers receiving multiple checks from the government and spending that over time. The tail on that lasted through much of 2024, gave us a good economy and a second year row of stocks going up 25%, Pretty amazing. 

John Coleman [00:04:04] Yeah, and I would just add, like Bob, I probably approached 2024 too conservatively and across asset classes, some in fact behaved a little more conservatively than others, certainly public markets did not behave very conservatively in 2024. And particularly the Magnificent 7 had a run that would have been difficult to predict, I think at the beginning of the year, just a historic run, so to speak. And as we head into 2025, Bob and I were chuckling about this before we started. You know, one of the themes I’m paying attention to, and perhaps he is, is just volatility and uncertainty. And it’s a constellation of things for me that are coming together. And I know this isn’t an exhaustive list, but right now we’re sitting on the precipice of some world-changing technologies. And so we’ve got this unpredictable, rapidly evolving technological landscape that includes artificial intelligence, but isn’t restricted to that. And those technologies are gonna be quite disruptive. We’re sitting, and I know we’ll dig into this, at a uniquely disruptive political moment. I think the Trump administration was intended to be disruptive as a political movement. The speed at which they’ve operated and the number of things they’ve taken on is probably faster than almost any of us predicted, and so more disrupted, for better or worse, than we might have predicted. And then there’s all this movement in the underlying economy and financial assets, right? where we did have a pretty heated market in 2024. Valuations are reasonably aggressive, at least in parts of the market right now. Housing prices actually kind of stayed up despite the fact that interest rates were going up and there was a slowdown in the market. And so there’s this continued threat of inflation in the background that I think people are still continue to worry about, but also this interesting situation where, depending on what part of markets you’re looking at, there is still pretty rich valuations in parts to those markets and how those will react. to the underlying economy, to technological disruption, to all this political disruption. You know, you add those things together on top of other things that may occur, and I think it’s gonna be quite an interesting year. 

Bob Doll [00:06:05] Yeah, I add to that or amplify some of it, John, one of our predictions this year is increased volatility. You know, we had no idea coming into the year it would be this volatile, the VIX comfortably averaging over 20, which most people know that’s a pretty high number for a full three month period. We’ll see if it lasts. And the cause is uncertainty. Risk assets, stocks, hate uncertainty. And we’ve served up, the administration has served up a bunch of it. I would argue it’s not just we don’t know what the tariffs are going to look like. It’s the volatility of the commentary. I’m going to do a tariff today, I might not do it tomorrow. It’s 5% on Tuesday, it’s 10% on Thursday, and this constant churn creates uncertainty. And when people have uncertainty, they pull their horns in. If you’re a business, you think about not hiring a person or two, you might be thinking of hiring. that new project, you say, let’s just pause on that. And if you’re an individual, you say, you know, maybe we should not plan that big vacation we were dreaming about for this summer. Maybe we need to just cut back a bit till we know the lay of the land. And you’re right, John, it’s mainly about tariffs. But it’s also about inflation, the tax cut, are we going to get it, a whole raft of things. Geopolitics, we haven’t even talked about that yet. So this uncertainty… is creating economic weakness. And if we don’t curtail the uncertainty, we’ll end up in a recession. And look, I say, observing them over many years, businesses can deal with bad news. What they can’t deal with is uncertainty. They just don’t know how to plan. So we’re stuck in that. One more comment on the good things you said of the Magnificent Seven and AI. You know, we’ve, in my view, hit a watershed moment. AI stocks, the Magnificent 7, just cleaning up on everything until a few months ago. And what’s changed? The answer is their earnings growth is slowing to still good levels, but more importantly, their cash flow is definitively decelerating. As they spend, I mean, the top three companies in AI declared in January, they’re going spend an incremental $200 billion on AI. and that just takes money out of their cash flow, and cash flow moves stocks even more than earnings do. So I think the broader theme here is equal weighted portfolios be cap weighted portfolials, mega cap stocks lag. I mean, I saw a stat, it’s an estimate so far that about 80% of managers beat their benchmark in the first quarter. When the mega cap stock are running the table, it’s really hard to beat the benchmark. When they’re lagging, you have a much better chance as most asset managers are more equally weighted in a probe. So a couple of PS’s to your becoming. 

Richard Cunningham [00:09:04] Yeah, so let’s maybe let’s go markets, Bob, and kind of start there and double click on all that we’ve been seeing. So I mean, you highlighted in this great paper that your team put out, crossroads or crosshairs, just kind of addressing head-on the uncertainty, the tariffs, everything that’s been going down right now that this has been the fifth fastest correction since World War II that we’re seeing in Q1. So maybe kind of double click into the magnitude of the correction we’ve seen. I mean S&P 500 kind of to date where we’re recording this is down, you know, just over 4% year to date. The Russell 2000, so kind of your small cap index is down almost 10% year to date. Kind of global, like macro look at the markets, Russell 3000 down 5% as well. Where are we kind of from a market footing standpoint as we deal with all the uncertainty and just the correction that’s taken place? Are we at the bottom? I know we’re not here to predict markets entirely, but what’s kind of your general sentiment right now? 

Bob Doll [00:09:54] So the rude awakening is, as you probably know, six weeks ago, the US stock market was at an all-time high. It is hard to believe. Wasn’t long ago. No, it wasn’t. I mean, enthusiasm and hope that came in when President Trump started pulling ahead in the polls in October, that started risk assets, equities in particular, moving higher, and that continued at various paces until February 17th, from which we had the pullback that you just cited. You gave them the year-to-date numbers. more stark to talk about what happened from that high to the recent lows. S&P down a little more than 10%. NASDAQ down well over 15%. The Magnificent 7 down 20%. Tesla down 40%. NVIDIA down 25%. These are big hits. Yes, the stocks were a bit overvalued, but it’s more about that slowdown and cash flow. And look, my view, John hinted at this earlier about valuations, the stock market was selling at its high at 22.5 PE. And you know, we don’t see that very often. When it’s selling like that, it’s assuming the world’s going to be nearly perfect, which it rarely is. So we get this pullback, and now we’re at 20.5PE, which is still not cheap. And I don’t believe the E. I think the earnings estimates are too high, and we’ll to come down as the economy slows. So, to your question, where do we go from here? So we had the pullback from 62, 6,300 to 55, 55, 50. Then we had a 5% run up. That was the oversold rally. Didn’t last very long and it wasn’t big, from which we are now testing. So back to those 55,50 lows, I think we’ve got a probe lower, 54, 53, 52. And if we don’t have recession, that could mark the low for the year. Doesn’t mean we’re growing straight up. I think we’re going to have a choppy year, but if we are going to have a recession and we have more visibility that we might have one, I think the S and P 500 will sport a handle of four, which won’t be very pretty and it’ll still not be cheap. I don’t want to sound like a bear, but there’s a risk out there. 

John Coleman [00:12:10] Yeah, and I would say I’m not that active on X, but I keep posting a chart every now and then as people freak out just of the five-year returns of the S&P. And it’s a little unfair now because we’re deep into COVID during 2020. Right now, set a trough. But the S & P is up 126.35% today from five years ago. It’s up 172.5% from this day 10 years ago It’s up 37% from this day two years ago. And so if you think the long-term returns in markets are linked to GDP and that it’s typically around 7% or 8%, we have been blowing through that number. I mean, high double-digit returns now for a long period of time. I mean this has been an incredible bull run since effectively the 2008 period, since the recovery from the great financial crisis with a blip during COVID. And I actually think some form of correction in the price of stocks in the valuation of these assets is healthy given the run-up that we’ve seen. I do think inflation and the amount of money in circulation in the economy obviously leads asset prices higher, but I also encourage a lot of folks that I’m talking to to just keep calm and carry on, right? If you look beyond the last quarter, we are living through one of the most remarkable public market cycles in history really in a lot of ways. And like Bob, I actually think there’s room for another, and I’m not predicting anything, but I would not be surprised to see 15 or 20% come out if we had a recession. I don’t actually think we’d be that far from appropriate valuations if that happened, just given how hot the markets have been. And while I think that would obviously be a dramatic move, it would impact people, it wouldn’t be unhealthy in terms of the long-term returns or even the midterm returns that people are getting. And so, In my mind, this year being a bit volatile, maybe a bit flat or even a bit down, wouldn’t be terribly unhealthy given the run up that we’ve had in some of these stocks and the valuations particularly amongst the large caps right now. I think small caps and mid caps tend to be valued a little bit better right now, but particularly towards the upper end of the market with the Magnificent 7, with even large cap stocks generally, the price to earnings multiples are at historic highs in a lot of ways. And so I would not be surprised that those retract a little bit, especially if there’s negative economic news. And I don’t think that’s actually a harbinger of long-term problems given the highs from which we’re retracting. If you just look at a one-year or two-year, I think even over the one year we’re up 9% right now, right, which would be a little above your long- term averages. And so investors should just be prepared that this could be a part of a normal cycle where financial assets return. to some level of normalcy after an incredible bull run, at least in my experience. 

Bob Doll [00:15:01] At the risk of piling on, John, there are only two ways to get the stock market or an individual stock to go up, you know. First is earnings better than expected. They come in as expected, the stock tends to go nowhere. So better than expect in earnings or to higher valuations. So let’s take them one at a time. Earnings are near an all time high. Profit margins, more importantly, are at all time highs. I can’t look at you guys and say, and the profit margin is going to go higher from here. I think it probably contracts some, which means earnings growth is less than normal. And we already talked about P’s being extended. So you put those two things together, the risk reward at the moment is not great. Let me add to that by saying if you look historically, when the P-E ratio of the five and ten year returns of averaged 4 or 5% including dividends. So when somebody says, you know, Bob, what do you think is going to happen to the stock market in the next 5 to 10 years? I say it’s going to be volatile. It’s going go up, but the total returns probably going to about 5% per annum. They look at me like, why are you so bearish? I’m not. I’m with you, John. You know, it’s still a good place to be. If you’re a good stock picker, you can do better than 5, but if 5 is what the S&P 500 gives you, value stocks will do better. maybe international stocks are better. maybe down cap will do better. We’ve just had such a wonderful, wonderful multi-year period. 

Richard Cunningham [00:16:30] So let’s get in some of the why. Bob, I hear you kind of getting into the fundamentals and the earnings and everything like that with the valuation, but there’s also this other why, which is kind of the broader economic side of things, the administration change and the regime change and kind of, the volatility that’s come out of Washington. Curious how to phrase this question. When you guys see what the Trump administration is looking to accomplish, they want to balance the budget. We’re bringing in 4 trillion, spending 6 trillion. So we’ve got a $2 trillion budget deficit. Elon has been tasked with. cutting out a trillion of that. Lutnik has been tasked with bringing in an additional trillion in revenue. So the theory of the plan makes a lot of sense in what they’re going after. It’s, hey, we wanna balance this budget. Is a lot the why for what we’re experiencing in the markets also a part of what the regime is looking to do and are they just willing to kind of deal with some of this blowback they’re gonna feel in the economy and the markets? What would you guys say to that? 

Bob Doll [00:17:24] There’s that question. Let’s look at the correction we’ve had over the last six, seven weeks. What’s caused it? Well, we’ve both used the word uncertainty. That’s, in my view, number one. Number two, and related, is tariffs. And number three is valuation. But valuation is a poor short-term indicator for future returns. It’s a great long-term indicated, but poor short term. You need a catalyst to unlock under or overvaluation. And the catalysts we got are uncertainty and tariffs. So that’s one way to answer your good question. I think another way is to say, unlike Trump 1.0, here at 2.0 I think they’re taking the pain, the tough news up front, and hopefully will live long enough to see the gain on the other side, which will come from tax cuts and deregulation and implied in that of course is some smaller budget deficits. But we got to get from here to there. And it’s not that simple as the stock market is showing us today. So I think that’s their plan. I hope that’s there plan because the alternative is not a whole lot of fun. So I that’s the why. And I come back to please, Mr. Trump, reduce the amount of uncertainty out there, you know, give us the bad news and let us live with it. Let us figure it out. Don’t give us good news on Monday and bad news on Tuesday and vice versa. 

John Coleman [00:18:51] Yeah, and maybe I’ll tee up a couple of topics I’d love to hear Bob weigh in on as well, just on the policy front. So let’s come back to technology and things like that later and fundamental productivity growth, et cetera. I think on the public policy front, my read is that the Trump administration is very much trying to be very aggressive in the first six to 12 months of their term. I think they understand that that’s their best opportunity to take dramatic action. I think they’ve learned from the example in Argentina, where Javier Mele took dramatic action up front. Now, Argentina was in a much more precarious financial situation than the United States, but Mele came in and he took dramatic action that many people criticize right away, but they’re already experiencing a dramatic recovery as a result of that dramatic action. And so if I just chunk the things that the Trump administration is trying to take on right now. You know, one certainly is to reduce the deficits and long-term debt of the United States, and they do want to eliminate this $2 trillion annual deficit that we’re running where costs are exceeding revenues dramatically now. And we’re piling up an unsustainable long- term debt in my view. They do want achieve that through a mixture of cuts coming from Doge. I think they legitimately believe they can get close to a trillion dollars by reducing waste, fraud, and abuse. Staffing levels and some of the government agencies that they view as unproductive, those will have negative implications in the short term because they will cause some unemployment. They will certainly reduce some government money in circulation. And there’s this whole discussion about whether government spending or parts of government spending should even be accounted for in GDP because they’re not productive spending, which we could get into. But that Doge effort is certainly targeted towards trying to reduce federal spending without fundamentally changing federal programs like Social Security, education, expending, etc. So attacking waste, fraud and abuse. The second is obviously that they’re trying to come up with new revenue sources that would support us expanding tax cuts for individuals. And their primary focus seems to be tariffs. If people want to get what I think has been the best explanation for What is likely the true posture of the Trump administration. The All In podcast had a good two hour interview with Letnik last week. I think it was where Letnik laid out systematically their position on tariffs, which is the U S for too long has allowed tariffs from other countries on us goods without any sort of parallel tariffs on our side. They fundamentally believe that that’s unfair, that it was an explicit policy choice to the United States following World War II to build up foreign countries so that they could regain footing. and they believe the time for that is over and that the United States should be operating more as a peer given that we’re the greatest consumer in the world and that U.S. taxpayers should not be supporting other countries with one-sided tariffs. And so when you see this tariff regime, many of those are retaliatory rather than aggressive, meaning they’re considering tariffs that would be on par with those already levied against the United States from places like India, from places, like China, even from places like Canada, which has been missed, Canada imposes. tariffs and restrictions on U.S. operating businesses right now that the Trump administration is mirroring, which is kind of part of his playbook. They also believe that that can be a significant revenue source. They look back to the pre-1910s, when the vast majority of U. S. tax revenues came from tariffs. And so they think they can raise a trillion dollars in revenue from tariffs in a way that not only puts us more in peripasoo with other countries, but re-onshores critical American jobs. You’ve got to remember now. There has been a remarkable electoral realignment in the U.S. where the Trump Republican Party in particular is now the party of the working class. If you look at polling data, et cetera, even unions supporting President Trump, they are dedicated to trying to bring working class jobs back to America through manufacturing, et cetera, not only because of a fundamental belief, but because of political motivation. as well. And so I think the terrorists are intended to punish certain behaviors, like they definitely want to use them on Mexico to reduce border crossings, fentanyl imports, etc. But they have a real economic belief that they can raise revenue with these and that they can restore fairness and that can re-onshore critical industries, right? And so, I think the terrorists, are likely actually not to be a short-term political negotiating lever, but actually a long-term policy of the United States. And that’s just starting to sink in. I think with people and then the final components of that, that Bob started to touch on, that could be helpful to the economy if we get through this pain. And I also think their political motivation is to get the worst stuff done this year so we can grow headed into the midterms, which is a political reality for them. They want to extend tax cuts. They’re very serious about trying to cut income tax on anyone under $150,000 a year in income. They want extend those, no tax on tips, et cetera, so they have to have revenue from somewhere else. They want to deregulate aggressively as a second round of Doge, which could be good for economic growth in the United States. And so I do think the tariffs and the cost cutting are kind of the bad news that the economy absorbing right now. And if they can get through those, their hope is that domestic job growth. tax cuts and deregulation can provide an economic jolt on the back end of that, that overwhelms any negative impact of those tariffs and of the cost cutting that they’re doing. And so I think their hope is they can thread the needle like Millet did, where they take the pain up front. But then by the time we head into the midterms next year, there’s a lot of good news for individuals and fundamental economic growth apart from government spending is restored in a positive way. 

Bob Doll [00:24:24] I agree with everything you said. I would emphasize the timeframe perspective. While Donald Trump did win the seven swing states, he did win the popular vote, which not too many Republicans do. He only beat Harris by one and a half points. It was not a landslide. A lot of people are talking that way, acting that way. And the way you see that is the margin of Republicans over Democrats in the House and the Senate. It’s like very narrow. And so getting things done is not gonna be simple. And you’re right, a year from now, the focus is gonna be on the midterm elections. And it’s very rare that the president in power doesn’t lose seats. So chances are high one or both chambers will revert to Democrats. So for Trump to get stuff done, he’s gotta do it now. And I hope you’re that we’re fine tuning, threading the needle. You know, two years is a short amount of time to get a lot done. So, uh, we just have to watch this real carefully guys. 

Richard Cunningham [00:25:29] And so I want to double click into tariffs, because I think that’s a key one that kind of is a microcosm into what’s going on here and what the Trump administration is trying to do. Bob, you put out a great stat in that paper that we mentioned earlier that Trump’s tariff plan, John, you mentioned a trillion dollars of revenue possibly, but like, you know, let’s go real conservative here. Let’s say it’s $250 billion in revenue to the U.S. That would, in other words, offset moving the corporate tax rate back from 35% to 21% from a revenue standpoint. So. This exercise of tariffs, I mean, there is negative near-term implications that we’ve spoken to in an already inflationary environment. Tariffs layer on another addition of kind of cost increase. Bob, you’ve mentioned the word recession a couple times now. What has to happen from a threading of the needle standpoint for this to work well and for this actually play out well? Because at what point does the Trump administration just say, hey, we need to take the exit ramp because midterms are coming and this is actually not playing out as we expected. Costs got out of control. we’re leaning in the recession. 

Bob Doll [00:26:29] Yeah, right set of questions, both politically and economically. So first of all, recession. If you know nothing, which most days I feel I know nothing. The probability of recession is 15%. Why? Because that’s about how much time we spend in recession. So if you know, nothing, somebody asked you 15%. Our view was at the start of the year, the probability was higher than that. Call it 25. And now it’s moved up to at least 35, probably 40%. So still less than half. But each passing day, and this starts to answer your good question, Richard. Each passing day economic weakness becomes more obvious. Uncertainty doesn’t go away. And that probability of recession just keeps going up. So we’ve got to reduce the uncertainty very fast. Tariffs. So John’s already talked about this to some degree, but let me amplify. The way I would like to look at tariffs. which I think could actually be positive, even though tariffs slow growth and create inflation. So the general are not good. If all we do is reciprocal tariffs, you know, the outcome can be not so bad. So let’s suppose John is putting a 3% tariff on my stuff. And I say, John, if you insist on that, we’re gonna do reciprocal, we’re going to do 3% on you. And John says, oh, hang on a minute. If I drop that and go to zero, will you stay at zero with me? And yeah, we come to an agreement and guess what? Tariffs just went down. Now that’s a little idealistic on my point to make that comment, but I’m hoping there’s going to be some of that and that would increase the competitive position of the United States significantly increase our growth rate and you know, bring more and more tax revenue in reduce the deficit, et cetera, et Cetera. So that’s another way out of this mess that we find ourselves in. But I come back to as you were connecting pieces of your question, we gotta get on with it. We can’t go another two months with all this uncertainty. We’ll be in a recession. 

John Coleman [00:28:39] And I think they’re trying to achieve what Bob is talking about. We’ll see how it plays out. But my read so far as they are hoping to get other countries to back down their tariffs, to increase the amount that we can export to other countries. And they’d be quite happy with that outcome. The one exception I might highlight is I do think there are punitive tariffs that might occur for non-economic reasons on certain countries, whether that be Mexico. If for example, they’re not happy with management of the cartels. I think China… I think there are a lot of non-economic considerations that will go into the tariffs on China, which make them a bit more difficult to predict. I think that’s to some extent warranted. And then there are certain product categories where I do think their focus is on re-onsuring, even if they’re short-term economic pain, and they’re trying to come up with other ways to offset those. I think COVID made everyone aware that our medical devices and pharmaceuticals, we were too at risk of foreign production of those and too at-risk of those things. defense technology, chips, which is a huge focus now, and what, again, they’re threading the needle. What they’re trying to do is get companies to announce huge investments in the U.S. to re-onshore chips. I think Nvidia just announced $100 billion to reonshoring. There have been some similar investments that have been announced. So if they can thread the needle where they have sustainable tariffs that try and re-inshore production of what they view as critical industries for U. S. national security and competitiveness. they can do so simultaneous with huge foreign investment in the United States to accomplish that, whether that be through SoftBank, through Saudi Arabia, through companies like Nvidia. I think their hope is that if they can get those things to hang together, they could actually achieve this goal of a painful process of re-onshoring but with enough foreign investment and capital inflows to actually support U.S. production in a more rapid way. The question is whether, on that last part, that will actually materialize in the way that they and over what time frame. Right? Because even when you say, I’m going to put $100 billion into re-onsuring chip manufacturing, you don’t turn on that 100 billion right away, right? That takes some time to filter in. And so I do think most of this is an economic tit for tat where they’re trying to raise revenue but also restore equilibrium on tariffs with various areas like the EU or countries like India. There are some punitive ones, and then there are industries that they’re really focused on trying to rebuild in the United States that they feel are a competitiveness and national security threat. 

Richard Cunningham [00:31:06] Good comments, guys. Thank you all. John, you said a couple of things that spurred two thoughts and we’re going to go to both of them. First, maybe while we’re talking tariffs and international relations, what about just what would you guys double click on as you look at the geopolitical landscape? Because I know that’s another factor and lever here that could just always throw a bomb in all of these plans of something kind of ignited in the wrong way. But as we think about Russia, Ukraine, what’s going on with Iran and the Middle East. Is there anything you have a particular eye on, Bob? 

Bob Doll [00:31:31] Yeah, so Donald Trump is desperate for a Nobel Peace Prize. And so don’t lose sight of that in what might happen. I know he said in the campaign trail, he can solve Russia, Ukraine in a day. Well, it’s taken a little longer than a day, but I do believe we will get some positive news there and we’ll stop shooting each other. You know, how much is that gonna cost? What happens to Zelensky in the process? How does Trump get there? But I think there’s gonna be calm there before too much longer. Same for the Middle East. I think… The U.S. has said to Israel, here’s a blank check. Go eliminate all the nasty boys. And when you’re getting close to finish, let’s talk about dismantling the nuclear power of Iran. I think there could be regime change forced by the West in Iran. And you know, do you do those couple of things and boy, things calm down. Doesn’t solve all the problems, but for a period of time. So I’m more than optimistic. I’m hopeful on both of those sets of conflicts. China’s a much more difficult one. I think personally that China has real economic problems. Too many 100-story buildings with nobody living in them, all financed on debt. Consumption, it’s getting a little better, but struggling. I don’t think President Xi is gonna last all that long. They have a massive demographic problem because the one birth policy, which is no longer policy became a way of life. And if you study the Chinese population, you know, fewer get married when they do it’s later in life. And if they have any kids, it’s one, if you have two, you have a big family. Their population demographers say will be half of what it is today by the end of this century. That’s a big problem. You cannot grow your economy if your population shrinking that fast. So. I don’t know what happens there. So you still have, you know, Russia, North Korea, China, and Iran. How do you solve that one? But on the first two, they’re a lot smaller and a lot simpler. Neither is simple. You get it. 

John Coleman [00:33:46] Yeah, Bob, those comments are awesome. And I think you’ve touched on all the right things. I actually am modestly confident that the Ukraine, Russia, we’ve seen the worst of it now and that it will calm down. I think there will be a negotiated settlement there. I think Russia’s tired of the war. I think Ukraine as a whole is tired of war and Europe is tired the war The key that Europe will focus on is not giving Putin a win in this to set a long-term precedent that’s bad. I think everyone agrees Crimea is probably a part of Russia or a disputed territory indefinitely moving out here. We’re not going to get that back for Ukraine, but then the negotiation turns into how long do they agree not to join NATO, what other territories remain with Russia, et cetera. But that’s kind of a prolonged diplomatic negotiation that I think is unlikely to flare up because I don’t think it’s in anyone’s interest right now for that to flare up further. Putin is facing his own pressures. I think China is much frailer than we think they are. I think they’re spying in the U S is actually a huge problem. That’s a political problem, but their population’s declining. Their financial system is in trouble. Their fundamental economy is in. Terrorists will hurt them worse than us, right? Because they don’t have a sustainable in economy. Long term, that makes me bullish on the fact that the United States can outcompete China and that China will have to face some sort of reforms at some point or decline. Short term, there’s always a big risk when a powerful country is at a frail point in its history that things could go wrong quickly and the best way to unify people when there are domestic problems is to create a foreign adversary. And so I think we have to be. appropriately cautious in the short term about what type of an instability there could be in China. And then the Iran question to me is a big one. I do think that Iran is at the heart of everything that’s happening in the Middle East right now. I think they’re probably weaker now than almost any time since the 70s. I personally believe that the U.S. is waiting for a good moment to let Israel strike Iran’s nuclear reactors and potentially do even more. I think Iran is much more of a loose cannon than China or Russia at this point. And if that spirals out of control, that could cause significant disruptions, particularly in certain markets, oil and natural gas, et cetera, but also even in shipping and things like that. So if I were to focus on one foreign conflict that I thought had the opportunity to spin out of the control in the near term, it would likely be the Middle Eastern conflict, just depending on if Israel gets the green light and if they hit Iran in their country. and then what Iran’s response to that is. And that’s quite difficult to predict. I think that’s an unsolvable area of uncertainty right now. But I do think China and Russia are not in as strong a position as sometimes they are painted to be. 

Bob Doll [00:36:28] You’re largely on the same page, and don’t forget that Nobel Peace Prize. 

John Coleman [00:36:32] and the Nobel Prize. I don’t know that they’re gonna give it to him, Bobby, even if he brings it out of peace. Thanks. 

Richard Cunningham [00:36:40] especially in light of all those tariffs. But hey, John, the second point you brought up when it was the geopolitical side of things and also from unpacking tariffs and whatnot and on-shoring, one of the potential long-term benefits is the on-shoring that could come to the US, also under this thought of less regulation and just the guardrails of business maybe being freed up a little bit. And on the backs of less regulations, possibly more M&A activity. And so that’s where I wanted to go next with you guys was, hey, we saw Core Weave IPO last week. We saw Google Alphabet have an enormous acquisition, $32 billion of whiz. Even though it’s been a really tough kind of stock market in Q1 since 2022, one of the lowest ever, you’re starting to see some rumblings of, hey, Q1 2025 was an incredible time for deal activity on the private markets in smaller time, kind of one of bigger upticks since 2021. So what are you guys watching as it relates to M&A and maybe IPO markets starting to heat up a little bit? 

Bob Doll [00:37:33] Surprised or I would have expected a whole lot more than we’re seeing you are right to point out some of the things you’re talking About but I think it’s I’ve used the word so many times It’s uncertainty that’s causing guys and gals that might otherwise do a deal to just step back But if we can get past this back to we take our pain and then we go to the game I think we could see a raft of deals that the administration will allow to happen and maybe even encourage to happen but we gotta get past the uncertainty first. 

John Coleman [00:38:03] And this is where I’m probably most bullish on long-term economic prospects or even midterm economic prospects for the United States. We have an almost insurmountable lead at the moment that is unlikely to go away in the next four years in technological innovation and business innovation. Europe has basically regulated itself into stagnation. Japan is in no position at the moment to innovate in the way that they did in the 80s. Korea has the most heavy collapsing demographic crisis in the world right now. South Korea does, at least in the major developed countries. And there are areas where there’s growth in innovation, Africa, parts of Latin America, et cetera, but nowhere that has the business base that the United States does. And we are right at the pointy end of the sphere on all the most important technological innovations right now, the best AI companies, we hear about threats from China, but they are in the United states. the best automation companies are in the United States. Many of the best robotics companies are in United States, and particularly if we have an era of deregulation that allows them to continue to innovate and build businesses. If it’s true that the immigration policy is gonna turn to recruitment on a meritocratic basis, which is part of this Trump gold card that they’re launching, they think they’re gonna get a million people to pay $5 million to get a green card for the US. Many entrepreneurs wanting to start businesses, for example. I think we could create an economic environment where we stay at the forefront of these massive long-term technological trends, and that would make me extremely bullish on the fundamental growth of the U.S. economy because the companies are able to start here that I think could be great for the U S. I’m with Bob. I thought we’d see a little more activity early on because the FTC certainly has a I think that’s still going to kick in, because I think there’s a lot of pent-up demand for that. It may just take some time. And so I’m a little bit bullish on the fundamental economy, particularly in the technology sector and in the innovation sector, so the hard technology and software, where we have a huge lead right now, and there’s really no global competitor other than China. And there are many reasons great entrepreneurs aren’t moving to China, right, and that they’re likely to come here rather than stay in Europe or stay in other parts of Have a great day. And if that’s the case, and if we can recruit them here, and if can maintain our lead in those various innovation areas, there’s some short-term labor problems that may happen to AI. I think that’s going to be transformational. But at the very least, our companies will continue to be successful, and our startup ecosystem will continue be successful. 

Bob Doll [00:40:33] John, you just outlined the reasons why the United States stock market has a premium valuation over every other in the world. Yeah, we’re having some difficulties at the moment. International is outperforming. But we’re not going to go to parity on a PE basis anyway, shape or form for the very reasons you said. 

Richard Cunningham [00:40:52] Well, hey, let’s pivot now to, I know a topic the three of us are all very passionate about. You two both lead faith-based or faith-driven investment firms. Love to hear about maybe that kind of one problem, one thing top of mind for you, Bob and your work at Crossmark and John and your lead in Sovereign Capital that you’re just really ruminating on as it relates to the faith- driven and kind of faith- based investing ecosystem. 

Bob Doll [00:41:13] You know, I would say, and I’m sure John’s going to agree with us and have more things to say, I’m now four years at Crossmark, the amount of time I have spent educating people, close my mind. So what I’m trying to say is, come on, let’s get on with it. A lot of people have not heard about what we all do for a living every day. Oh, I didn’t know that exists. Tell me more. And that’s whether it’s a financial advisor, a faith based institution. a faith-based individual investor and we’re all working overtime to get the word out and educate and uh you know i get frustrated richard the people that don’t see in the light bulb doesn’t come on and they don’t just 

John Coleman [00:41:56] Yeah, I couldn’t agree more with Bob, so I’ll take it a different direction, which is one of the things that motivates me as a faith-driven investor is I think people like Bob, people like the folks that work with us, we have a real optimism about the future because of our faith. We know where this all ends up, short-term or long-term, you know? But we also have a commitment to love of neighbor and to seeing people flourish. And one of worrying trends of the last… 20 years, 30 years, has been this consistent decline in flourishing despite increased prosperity, right? People are lonelier, they’re less happy. There’s a lot of fragmentation. There’s lot of social problems that have built up even though we’re richer than we used to be, you know, with some exceptions. And I think what I would love to see as faith-based investors continue to take the lead on how can we as investors, as partners to those who are building companies. try and solve not only the economic problems, we have to perform with excellence. That’s what we’re called to do. But in some small measure, contribute to trying to solve this giant macro problem, particularly in the developed world of this crisis of purpose and meaning of the loneliness and isolation that people feel of the way in which people are not engaged at work. How can we be contributors to creating workplaces that make people’s lives better, not worse, and reverse some of these trends that we’ve seen? I think there are some small green shoots on that front. I mean, Bible sales are up 25%. The Hallow app has exploded and there are tens of millions of people doing daily devotionals. We’ve even seen a ton of articles recently about Christianity suddenly making an appearance in Silicon Valley. I remember the HBO show, Silicon Valley, where people came out as Christian. It was like, you know, the worst thing that they can do. And now, you now, there are leaders in that space. And that’s important because the faith we share, but also because I think. That series of positions and beliefs and the tenets of that faith unlock something that can make people’s lives better and more fulfilling and happier, make families stronger. And my hope is that if we can get people off the sidelines, Bob, and if we get them to start thinking of their values as a part of their capital allocation, and if can use that capital to really transform the way that companies and real estate developments work. in a way that’s aligned with creating love of neighbor and human flourishing in the various things in which we’re investing, that we can unlock not only economic prosperity, but a deeper prosperity of the soul that I feel is lacking right now in so many parts of our world. 

Bob Doll [00:44:26] Amen. You’ve just described reforming capitalism. That’s what we need to do. There’s so many good aspects of it. And yet, for capitalism to work, it needs Judeo-Christian principles. And we can’t separate the two. We need to encourage a flourishing world underneath the rubric of, you know, we will love the Lord our God and all he stands for. 

Richard Cunningham [00:44:50] Well guys, this has been an awesome episode and Bob, we’re gonna do this. I mean, what a privilege to have you on the podcast. Take us home with some wisdom. What’s the Lord been teaching you lately in and through his word? 

Bob Doll [00:44:59] Yeah, I almost use the word answer to one of the last questions. Patience. I’m an impatient guy. I want to get it done yesterday when I quote know what the right answer is. So whether that’s personally or professionally, uh, professionally, it’s, you know, we already articulated it. How many years are we going to have to educate before people do it? You know, and look, people have to be convinced in one over in time to think I respect all that. And personally, it is the same thing. You know. When I do things at Crossmark, I think, how come we don’t have the answer now? How come we’re not moving the ball faster? So patience. God has a long-term time horizon and I gotta fit into it by relaxing and letting God be God and not forcing myself to try to be God. 

John Coleman [00:45:45] And this will be moderately self-serving. Patience is not a virtue that I’m blessed with, Bob. So I’m 100% with you on that. When you figure it out, give me a call. It’s not what I’m naturally blessed with. I’ll tell you, this is one promotional thing I’ll say is I’ve been watching House of David every week when it comes out. I think everybody should be watching House Of David. I think the change in culture is huge and it’s just so cool to see biblical stories come to life at a Hollywood level of quality. But it’s also made me reflect much more deeply on Samuel and Kings and on the story of David. And one of these themes is just how cautious we need to be to maintain humility and faithfulness, particularly as we’re successful. What brought down King Saul was, there’s a great line in the first episode where Samuel says, when you were small in your own eyes, God made you great. And now that you’re great in your eyes, you’ve fallen away from God. and the story of David and even Jonathan is really about keeping their heads on straight that they are servants of the living God. And that gives them both a confidence, but also a humility, a confidence that if they’re living into that mission, they can do anything and a humility that it’s not by their own strength, but God’s strength, right? Which can be hard sometimes. I mean, anytime someone’s successful, they start to get in their own head about being responsible for that success. And that’s always the seed of downfall, as it even was for David and Solomon, you know, later in those stories. And just watching House of David, that brings it to life so much for me, like, Bob, I’m so encouraged that someone like you is in the faith-driven investing ecosystem because you’re the best at what you do. You are a remarkable person in markets. You’re incredibly intelligent. You bring a professionalism to this industry that is desperately needed. But I also know you’re humble. And so… My hope is, for myself, that even as we begin to make strides, even as we’re able to accomplish great things, that we appropriately attribute that success to the one who gave it to us, and that we really just faithfully try and dedicate ourselves to his service and to the mission that he would lay before us, rather than kind of getting high on our own supply and starting to believe our own story or narrative and put ourselves at the center. So true. 

Bob Doll [00:47:52] I sometimes talk about when it’s money, well, it’s not our money, it God’s money. And one guy said to me recently, a believer, but I worked hard for that. And who gave you the brain power to be able to do the work hard? It’s all his. And the sooner we figure that out, the sooner can move the humility and away from the pride. 

Richard Cunningham [00:48:11] What is it? James 117. Every good and perfect gift comes from above. It starts there. Amen. Man, Bob Doll, John Coleman. What a great episode. We covered a lot of ground. I know it’s been a full and volatile Q1, but what a privilege to bring you guys in for some timely remarks and then some timeless wisdom as our friend Luke Rausch likes to say it there at the end. So friends for John Coleman, Bob doll, this is Richard Cunningham. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the FDI Podcast and we will catch you next time. 

Speaker 5 [00:48:36] We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see listeners come in from more than 100 countries. Faith-driven investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers of questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for a monthly newsletter at faithdriveninvesting.org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Forman, intro mixed and arranged by Summer Draggs, audio and editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.