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Kingdom Advisors is setting the standard for what it means to be a Christian financial advisor. They provide encouraging content and community that is building up the collective body of believers, and we’re so glad to point you to their work today. 

Rob West is the President of Kingdom Advisors and in addition to sharing their origin story and mission, he shared interesting insights into specific investment vehicles that Faith Driven Investors should know about. Check it out today…

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Rob, it’s awesome to have you on the show, thank you for joining us, Henry, so glad to be with you. This is super cool for me because, you know, you’ve done and to be clear, we haven’t done very many of these across Faith Driven Entrepreneur and feature an investor, but it’s infrequent that I find somebody who is a guess who’s done infinitely more of these than we have. And you’re a radio guy and you’ve done this a long time. And I got to tell you, it’s a little intimidating to talk to a guy who’s actually a radio host and interviewing him.

Rob West: Well, with podcasting these days, just about everyone is doing this kind of thing. So you’re right, though. I do host a radio program every afternoon, but I’ve really been looking forward to this conversation and so excited about the work of faith driven investor.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you for joining us. So I know a lot of our listeners and we’ve heard this feedback already. A lot of our listeners are financial advisors. A lot of our listeners are their clients, but a lot of people who have as a profession to help people understand how to steward the wealth that’s been entrusted to them. So this is a big deal for us to hear from you today. But to start talk to us about this program that you’ve got and the platform that you have. And what is Kingdome Advisors?

Rob West: Yeah, well, I appreciate that question, Henry, and, you know, I would start by saying King of Advisors is really leading what we call an industry of Christian financial advice. We have the privilege of serving about thirty one hundred Christian financial advisors in the U.S. and Canada. Really one of the main objectives there is to provide advocacy for these advisors who we like to say are specialists in bringing biblical wisdom to bear alongside competent financial advice.

We also issue a designation, as you know, Henry certified Kingdome advisor, which is really positioned in the market as the gold standard for biblically wise financial advice among believers and those who want to align their faith with their financial decisions at a professional level. We also provide community for these financial advisors through more than 250 study groups that meet in the US and Canada. These are small groups of advisors and right now they are happening virtually, even though typically they would be mainly in-person meetings. We do an annual conference every year, which we say is the industry gathering. And we could talk about that a little later in our time together today. And then, of course, we offer training and tools where we deliver a step by step process for advisors who want to be confident in bringing this biblical financial advice to their clients. And then to your earlier mention of the radio program, we also have another ministry under Kingdome Advisors called Money Wise and Money Wise. Media is really our ministry where we share these principles with the public through our nationally syndicated radio programs. We’re reaching about a million Christians a week and then many more through the podcast.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so I want to ask a lot of that, but I want to start with the Origin story. So Kingdome Advisors has obviously been around for a while. If you’ve got thirty one hundred people coming to that annual event, by the way, I’ve been at some of your events there worldclass. Tell us about how it all got started.

Rob West: Yeah, well, so we’d have to go back to nineteen ninety seven, Larry Birkhead, the late Larry Birkhead, who’s most well known for the books that he wrote, he had a radio program that was probably one of the first in the space of about a thousand radio outlets. And Larry brought together 16 Christian financial professionals and they formed what was called the Christian Financial Planning Institute with a commitment to delivering biblically wise financial advice. Well, fast forward a number of years and really they expanded their vision to create a new organization that would really be responsible for taking the lead and reaching the Christian financial professional community. So at the time, they reached out to Ron Blue, who’s a friend of yours and mine. And Ron, of course, an author, was the founder and is the founder of Rodell Blue and Company. Ron had built what is today still the largest Christian financial planning and wealth management firm anywhere, and with about 90 advisors at the time, the certainly larger now they were helping Henry. Many Christian families steward their resources. But what was fascinating was their clients were giving away tens of millions of dollars annually to Kingdome causes. And I think the reason really was that these advisors had a real sense of calling the Praxis was their ministry. They saw it that way. There was tremendous cultural reinforcement, if you will, within the organization. And they demonstrated that biblical financial wisdom worked at a professional level. And of course, it would, because it comes right out of God’s word. Well, Larry, and these 16 advisors approached Ron and asked him to take over as CEO of what would later become Kingdome Advisors with this expanded vision. And really the rest is history. We now have these 30, 100 advisors that we serve and the organization is really growing significantly.

Henry Kaestner: Salamat understand the difference. So you’re your customer.

You’re somebody who’s been entrusted with wealth at any level that’s listening to this and you’re trying to figure out what does a Christian financial advisor give me their second wouldn’t. So presumably a secular financial advisor wants to help you plan for retirement and college planning and things. You might need a medical emergency. How is that different from a Christian perspective?

Rob West: Yeah, and we serve really financial professionals in one of five disciplines, if you will. So the financial planners, the investment professionals, but also CPAs and accountants, also insurance folks and then finally estate planning attorneys. But you would expect from every adviser, of course, experience, integrity, competence, and we measure all of those for our designation. We have an experience requirement and they have to abide by a code of ethics and the statement of faith. And we require pastor and client references and regulatory review and the like. But really, to your question, you know, I think I can read the difference from their secular counterpart is in the ability to bring advice that aligns with the values and priorities of Christians know there are real planning differentiators.

When you lay a biblical worldview on top of financial decision making, it changes how you approach accumulation and lifestyle and legacy and wealth transfer and generosity. And to our conversation today, investing as well.

So an advisor who understands the heart of God related to money through the more than 2000 verses on the subject, in God’s word. Well, he or she can ask different questions and really assist the client in being a faithful steward of all that God has entrusted to them. You know, I think the other difference, though, Henry, is that a certified Kingdome adviser, somebody who’s really a specialist in this area, understands that money issues are ultimately heart issues. We talked about, Larry Briquette really founding the Christian Financial Planning Institute, which later became CSPI. Larry used to say that the way we handle money is the clearest indicator into what’s going on in our lives spiritually. It says where we placed our trust, it says what we value. And if something is going to dethrone God from first position in our lives, it’s most often going to be money. So I believe the Christian advisor really can help clients hold what they have loosely understand that their financial journey in many ways shapes their spiritual journey and really underscore Henry the importance of giving generously.

Henry Kaestner: So you mentioned something along the way I thought is really important in the 2000 verses to talk about money and investing in the Bible. And I would imagine that one of the greatest challenges that any financial advisor has is in working with a couple, a husband and a wife who may have different views of money. And if you’re just looking at a secular perspective with kind of a, you know, a relative truth perspective, it may be very difficult to be able to bring a couple together around how to think about how to steward money or how to think about generosity, et cetera. But it’s got to be really helpful for that financial adviser to say, listen, you know, one of. This brings us together is this belief that there’s a God who loves us and that he has this handbook, if you will, handbook is not the right way to probably talk about the word of God. But nonetheless, there’s this great scriptural reference to help you as a couple to process through things like generosity and wealth over the generations, et cetera. To that extent, I suppose maybe it’s easier for Christian financial advisor to help people.

Rob West: Yes, well, I think you’re exactly right, and especially right now, through the times in which we find ourselves in the midst of a pandemic, I think advisors and clients alike want to know that they’re receiving advice. They’re delivering advice that’s rooted in something transcendent, that it’s bigger than them. And as Ron Blue likes to say, you know, biblical wisdom is always right. It’s always relevant. It’s never going to change. And we know that’s true. But you bring up a really key point here. And that is as to the couple, you know, this is really critical. We’re big fans of the work of Jeff and Shante Feldheim, who just completed a three year long study on men, women and money and wrote a book about it. And we just I interviewed Shauntay a couple of weeks ago on it. And, you know, she was uncovering this idea that 70 percent of married couples have real difficulty communicating about money. And one of the top reasons for it is there’s a misalignment or a misunderstanding of how their values connect to their money. And so this is really the opportunity for the advisor. And I would say even more so for the Christian advisor to be able to lean into that and say, let’s work together, husband and wife, on uncovering your values. What’s important to you? And how can money as a tool be used as an expression of those values? And that brings them together instead of driving a wedge in the relationship?

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, it’s powerful. I’m completely with you, especially in the context of giving how much is enough? What’s our finish line starting with that? And then, of course, from then so many other things come in tax planning and succession planning and how much to for the kids, etc.. Let’s get back to you. Talked about Ron being a key part of picking up the mantle from Larry Birkhead. We’re huge fans around here. You mentioned he’s a friend. He’s been a great adviser to us for the last dozen or so years. And pretty much anything that I’ve done and I know continues to be integral in the work that you guys do, a kind of advisers. How is his influence affected you? And just, you know, perspective a guy that’s been doing this for 50 plus years, the larger faith driven investor movement, and it doesn’t sound like he’s slowing down.

Rob West: No, no, it’s it’s amazing. He’s actually busier than ever, doing really important work through the round words do, but still very heavily involved in Kingdome advisors and the work that we do and as a monthly contributor to money wise and money wise radio programs as well. I don’t know how he does what he does to his influence on me personally, Henry. I would just say he’s been one of the most significant mentors in my life. So Howard Dayton is another giant of the faith. And Ron Blue, it’s just been incredible that the Lord has allowed them to speak into my life in the ways that they have. Ron’s an amazing visionary. I’ve learned so much from him on that. I think probably the most significant thing that has stood out to me about his life is just the integrity with which he has conducted himself and his ministry over the decades. He is who he says he is, and he’s the same guy, whether he’s on the stage or he’s at home with his wife, Judy. So he is just an amazing man, that God is used in significant ways and continues to. But his influence on this space has been enormous. He, I would say, is the founder of Christian Financial Planning. You know, his work to pioneer the delivery of biblical financial advice at the professional level is really the foundation for all of the training we do today. Kingdome Advisors. Although Ron’s work was really focused in the planning areas, he was really clear from the very beginning that this idea of faith based investing was really a conviction or a conscience matter that Christians needed to wrestle with. And I really think that as the faith driven investment space matures with now so many world class investment solutions being created that are uniquely designed for the Christian advisor and ultimately investor, there’s a true industry of Christian financial advice for these investments to live within. That is a direct result of Ron and his work ethic.

Henry Kaestner: So tell me more about the you mentioned in industry. So it’s much more than just a conference. There’s actually there’s many aspects to it. You talked before about five different kind of professionals that come in from attorneys all the way through. Tell us more about this growing industry.

Rob West: Yeah, well, it’s really one of the most exciting things that has come out of our work at Kingdome Advisors in the last five years. Henry, we’re just thrilled that there now exists today a true industry of Christian financial advice. And you would think about it, as you could call it, a specialty. But we really refer to it as an industry because there’s so many different pieces and parts of it. Of course, it’s a subset of the larger financial services industry and some of the components we’ve now got. Fifteen hundred certified Kingdome advisors. So we’ve got these thirty, thirty, one hundred members of Kingdome Advisors we serve more than fifteen hundred have earned the designation to be held out to the public last year. Forty eight. And Christians searched for a local certified kingdom adviser to connect with in their community, and so there’s a growing demand on the part of Christians for this, datelined advice and investment solutions. Fifty firms have now approved certified kingdom adviser. And if you know anything about what’s happening in designations in the financial services industry, there’s less and less of them that are being recognized. And so the fact that 50 firms, including some of the biggest firms up and down Wall Street, having approved for use and some of those major firms even approving Scriptura to be used in financial plans by these advisors is just a huge step forward.

You know, we’re seeing significant coverage of the Christian financial industry in the financial media. So we’ve been featured in The Wall Street Journal and Financial Planning magazine and FDE magazine. I mean, it’s Yahoo! Finance. You know, there’s a real interest in what’s happening across this space.

One of the most exciting pieces of this industry, Henry, that’s taken off in the last several years because of the work at not only Kingdome Advisors, but the ROMBA Institute is the number of Christian universities that are now bringing this training into their financial planning degree programs so they can train up and graduate future financial advisors that are ready to enter this business as a specialist and then biblically wise financial advice. And so we’re thrilled about that. And then I could point to many more evidences. But the last one I’ll mention is just, I think, directly related to our conversation today. And that is just the incredible number of investment solutions that are being created, uniquely suited for the Christian advisor in this whole faith driven investing space that are just such high quality investments and the growing number of them, even just in the last couple of years. I think it’s just real evidence of what’s taking off in front of us.

Henry Kaestner: So tell us a little bit more about some of the things that you’ve seen. What are some of the new funds that are out there, the new vehicles?

Rob West: Well, you know, one of the things that’s been helpful for us is to really think about these faith based investments in three categories. And so there would be, of course, the investments where we embrace certain things. So we’re screening in companies that have either a social or Kingdome impact. Perhaps you can call it a triple bottom line in some cases where, you know, looking through the investments and options out there and these, you know, investments are then bringing in companies that really are making a difference in the world. And, you know, there’s a growing number of those in both ETFs and, you know, private equity and mutual fund and obviously individual investments as well. Then in the second category of avoid, obviously, the growth in this area of the screening tools that are available and the number of growing solutions that are available to advisors who their clients really want to make sure that they leave out those companies that would in some way conflict with their values and priorities. And then this whole idea of shareholder engagement engages that third category. And it’s really been fun to see just a growing number of investments and firms that are really helping their clients, who are owners in companies, engage companies around their values and let their values be known and to see some of the differences that are being made as a result of that. And then just the quality of these investments that are winning industry awards and being recognized for not only just being high quality, but having stellar performance. You know, we didn’t see the number of investments, certainly not the quality of the investments that exist today, even just a couple of years ago. And so I think it’s really a new day for advisors who want to lean into the space with their clients.

Henry Kaestner: So I know it’s probably awkward for you because you represent this larger industry to single out any particular mutual funds or mutual fund families. And so I’m not going to put you on the spot for that. But I know of several. And and this is absolutely something for somebody to listen to his podcast to be able to talk through with their financial professional. It doesn’t take much research to find some of the ones that are great tortas about. You mentioned private equity. Traditionally, we think about some of the brokers that I used to back in the early 90s, worked at Merrill Lynch. So some of the wire houses are able to offer certain products that may be different than some of the independent financial planners and some of the independent financial planners may have access to be able to present some things with a little bit more latitude and maybe some wire houses. Like, for instance, I’m thinking now about some of the new investment opportunities that are going on in Eastern Europe, where there is investment in things that are bringing about God’s kingdom in Eastern Europe or in Africa. I think maybe about a couple that might come back from a missions trip to Rwanda and having encountered just really compelling entrepreneur, that’s got a great opportunity for agricultural investing. Tell us about the nuance or the different levels of the industry and where some advisers can get involved in some things and maybe some other ones can.

Rob West: Well, you’re exactly right. It really is going to depend on what type of firm they have, how they’re registered, what firm they work for, or whether they are truly independent as a registered investment advisor. So obviously, those that work at firehouses are going to have certain constraints as to the types of investments that are approved for use with their clients. Obviously still a plethora of solutions, all that they need to serve their clients well, including in this area of faith based investing among the big firms. And that’s one of the things that we’re so excited about as this industry continues to grow, is the number of really household name warehouses that are proving C.K. and allowing these faith based investment solutions to exist on their platform. But when you get into some of these private equity deals and you get into investments that are unregistered or require you to be accredited, you know, obviously those are going to be reserved in most cases for an independent advisor, either who has a broker dealer who’s willing to allow these solutions to be used or whether they’re truly just an RIAA making their own decisions, using a custodian, but ultimately able to then, you know, use and have access to a greater variety of unregistered securities, of course, for the right type of investor that meets a certain minimum net worth and so forth. So depending upon where the advisor is in this industry, he or she may or may not have access to the types of investments that you’re talking about. But clearly, there is a trend toward independent in the industry, which would mean simply that a growing number of advisors would have access even to the type of exciting things that you’re describing.

Henry Kaestner: So a couple of things come up for that. But first of all, I ask is on the SEC side, you’ve got 1500 now. Presumably there’s a place on the King of Advisors website where you can go and you can find out how you can find somebody.

Rob West: Absolutely. Both that kingdom advisors, dotcom and money wise, ERG. Like I said, just shy of 50000 Christians search for a certified Kingdome adviser in their city last year, and we’re seeing similar numbers this year.

Henry Kaestner: OK. And on that site, you’ve got a section that’s dedicated to biblically based response to market turmoil. Titus, through that a little bit, it’s been a crazy time. And what are some of the things that somebody might find on that section?

Rob West: Yeah, we are really excited to be able to put that together in response to covid-19. We just knew that it was a unique season for advisors and the clients that they serve. And so they went through kind of this triage phase, as so many advisors did in the early days of that with the incredible market gyrations, just needing to contact advisors or clients. And, you know, one of the real challenges of this particular crisis was that in other times of crisis, you know, we would come together in community to process it. Know, I remember right after 9/11 going over to my parents house and meeting my siblings there, and we just kind of all sat around and debriefed. And, you know, one of the real challenges here in the early days of covid and now to some degree still today was that people were isolated. And so it just created, you know, the fear really led to a rational thinking and behavior. And so much of that, you know, was realized in the form of irrational decision making in their finances. So these advisors were just really trying to come alongside their clients and triage the situation. And now they’ve kind of settled into a new normal, if you will, you know, with lots of meetings and just reacting and responding to what’s going on around them. But we created this resource that king of advisors, Dotcom’s covid-19, where we wanted to offer just spiritual encouragement to these advisors. That’s a big part of what we do for this community that we serve to bring industry thought leaders to the table. That could just be a real source of trusted counsel and insights. And then really in this third area, help them navigate client conversations as they really bring to bear this time tested wisdom into the conversation and help them lean into this role in which they serve as counselor or coach, you might say.

Henry Kaestner: So what’s it like for a Christian financial advisor in a time like this? covid is meaning that you can’t get together and look at a bunch of charts together with your clients. I imagine that some part of that makes it more efficient, but some part of that makes it less relational. What are you hearing from the folks you serve?

Rob West: Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, just from a real practical sense, obviously, as in just about every other industry, there’s just a lot happening virtually through video conference. And so, you know, we’ve heard from some advisors that are building Zoome studios in their offices and thinking about how do we create a unique experience, everything from the audio quality to the lighting to, you know, how do we engage?

Because that’s probably one of these. Changes that’s going to stick where there’s some segment of the client base that is going to want to choose that option to meet, you know, moving forward and a greater percentage. And so that’s just one of the practical sides of it, obviously just managing through it as they have a remote workforce and just all the implications related to that. But then I think, Henry, as it relates to just the way in which they serve their clients, you know, we talk at King and Advisors about the four roles of an adviser, that of adviser, of course, that of leader, that of counselor, coach, and then finally disciple maker. And I think there are unique opportunities in each of those during this season. I mean, certainly as an advisor, I think one of the greatest things they can bring is just perspective, reminding them that God is in control and that he cares for them and that he is their provider and just kind of putting all of this uncertainty and unrest in a proper perspective, I think in the area of leader just bringing that biblical financial truth, that transcendent wisdom that transcends time and tax codes and markets and all of it, and really just reminding them of those bedrock principles, if you will, in the area of Councilor Koch. I think there’s a unique opportunity for these Kingdome advisors to listen, to acknowledge the feelings of their clients, to help them process the fear that they have. And I think, you know, for many of their clients to replace that with faith and really just lean in to that unique opportunity. And then finally, the opportunity for disciple maker just to really kind of help them process this on their own spiritual journey. So there’s a unique opportunity, I think, here. And so many of our advisors are encouraged just really about the doors that the Lord is opening, even just in the area of prayer, just as they find this as a season where they can pray more regularly with their clients, perhaps, than they have previously now.

Henry Kaestner: So you guys are known for an incredible gathering. I mentioned it before. It happens in Orlando each year. And you’ve got a number of other gatherings, some of which I’ve been to one in Nashville last year was outstanding. You introduced me to the world of Matamoras music and saw forever be grateful. I was outstanding. What does it look like for you all this year as you’re doing gatherings, or are you also moving to them? What are you going to do in Orlando?

Rob West: Yeah, so great question. And we obviously are doing a lot of things virtually. We have a remote workforce right now. So our team at Kingdome Advisors and money wise are all working from home with the exception of just the daily radio broadcast and a team of producers and coast graders and engineers that make that happen. But everybody else is working from home.

And so there’s just a real practical reality of how we’re working as a team, but it affects how we serve our members as well. Fortunately, the certified Kingdome advisor educational program that we offer, which is the training prerequisite for the Kingdom Advisor designation, which is a 50 hour program, is an online program offered through Liberty University, Indiana Wesleyan University. So those cohorts continue to go on on a self-paced basis and are instructional mentors, are working with them remotely, as they always have. I mentioned these 250 study groups that we offer around the U.S. and Canada. These are small groups of advisors that come together every month around original content that we produce in our studio and send out or stream. And they usually meet in person and around a 90 minute meeting to watch and discuss the material. Well, that’s all happening virtually. So that’s obviously a big change. And then, yes, this big annual gathering we do we were expecting between 1800 and 2000 Christian financial advisors in Orlando next February. And because of covid and the social distancing, we had to make the decision this summer. And we’ve just actually recently announced this publicly, that we’re actually moving to a virtual event this coming February. So our 20 21 conference will be an online experience, but it’s going to be anything other than perhaps what you have in your mind when you think of an online conference. It’s going to be the best of what Kingdome Advisors brings to the table. And this really is one of our unique competencies to create remarkable moments and really to deliver a world class conference. It’s going to be the best of what we deliver, but in the most accessible format ever. And so we’re actually really excited about it. We’re going to be planning for every bit of eight months. We’re going to be the best speaker lineup we’ve ever had. There’s going to be ways for this growing number and we think will be between three and four thousand advisors that will participate in it to search on a very granular basis for other advisors that have similar interests or practice types and connect with them. It’ll have the largest virtual exhibit hall we’ve ever had. There will be interaction with all the breakout speakers live. There’ll be a real engagement opportunities and a variety of other areas worship. So it’s going to be great. And I think, Henry, as much as we love to be together each year and we. Can’t wait to be back together in person in the future with the industry. Christian advice, we think this is a unique season for 20 21 to actually through this virtual conference to expose many, many more advisers to this industry than we ever have before, because there’s a certain number that just have never taken the trip to Orlando. And once they get there and experience it, they always come back. But until they experience it, it’s really hard to describe it. So I think we could really exponentially grow this community this year through this virtual gathering that’ll happen February 17th through the 19th of 2021 was that it comes up we want to do our part, making sure people know about it.

Henry Kaestner: Rob, one of the things we like to ask any one of our guests on any one of our programs is what you’re hearing from God personally and his word. Maybe it’s in a study group. Maybe it’s with your wife, maybe this morning. But what’s something that you’re hearing from God speak to you about from the Bible?

Rob West: Yeah, I appreciate you asking. You know, I’ve been studying recently the book of Mark and the Gospel of Mark. And, you know, this particular thing that just jumped off the page to me recently, Henry, I think relates directly to what we’re talking about here today. And it won’t be unfamiliar to you. It’s Mark four and it’s the parable of the solar. And what’s fascinating to me is just, you know, when the disciples are questioning Jesus around really the implications of this story that he’s just told about this parable of the sower, and they wanted to know what these various soils represented. And, you know, when he describes what choked out the word from burying a 30 60 hundredfold return in the soldiers lives, he says that it’s the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things. And I think that’s just so fascinating, because if you go back to what I was saying earlier at the kind of the beginning of our time together is that, you know, the love of money has the potential to be one of the most common things that will dethrone God from first position in our lives. And I think that’s exactly what this passage in Parable is speaking to, is that the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things, which probably is going to in many cases be material possessions, that has the potential to choke out the word from bearing fruit in our lives. And so God has just really been impressing upon me the unique opportunity we have to think differently about what God has entrusted to us. And I think that really underscores, if you will, the opportunity of the Christian advisor as well.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a great word and a great one to end on. Rob, thank you very much for joining the program, looking for the next time we get together. And it sounds like we’ll have an opportunity to participate virtually in February and hopefully will connect before then. Thank you for being on the program.

Rob West: It was a joy. Henry, I appreciate the invitation and I’ll look forward to be back with you again real soon.

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Today’s guest is Eric Kim, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Goodwater Capital. As early investors in Facebook, Twitter, Spotify, and others Eric and his team know a thing or two about the tech startup world. 

But that’s not the limit of Eric’s expertise. He’s done some great thinking about what spiritual integration looks like in their firm and how his faith guides him as he’s part of stewarding a portfolio of over a billion dollars. We’ll let you hear the rest from him…

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Everybody gets the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We’re glad you’re back. Today’s guest is Eric Kim, co-founder and managing partner of Goodwater Capital. As early investors and Facebook, Twitter, Spotify and others, Eric and his team know a thing or two about the tech startup world. But that’s not the limit of Eric’s expertize. He’s done some great thinking about what spiritual integration looks like and their firm and how his faith guides him as he’s part of stewarding a portfolio of over a billion dollars. I’ll let you hear the rest of it from him.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Today is super cool for me because we’re on with a good friend of mine, a guy that I’ve been able to be in in a Bible study and community group of sorts over the course of the last couple of years.

A number of us who are serious about our Christian faith and who got his place in the world of investing have gotten together just to encourage and challenge each other in our pursuit of knowing God and honoring him through our vocations. And it’s with Eric Kim that we’ve got today on the call and been looking for this podcast for a while. Eric, thank you very much for joining Henry.

Eric Kim: And Tim, thanks so much for having me. That’s a real honor and a blessing to be here with you on your listenership today. Appreciate it.

Henry Kaestner: So we have a love that is the official title for listenership that esteems our audience, which needs to be esteemed. Awesome. People were celebrating the fact that we’re now and something like seventy five different countries. But it’s been super encouraging to hear people come back in with great feedback and just great affirmation. So thanks for acknowledging that. And one of the things that you probably know and everybody in our listener base knows is that we like to hear the stories, the personal stories of the people that are on an episode with us. We want to get into some really neat things about the mission and the vision and values and how you think about things like a shadow mission. Today, we’re going to find out what in the world is a shadow mission. And then we’re also going to find out a little bit about the role that consumer technology plays in this post, covid or current covid world. But tell us about who you are, where you come from. And then in the mix of that, I want to know, what is your favorite piece to play on the show?

Eric Kim: Oh, I love it. Thanks for bringing that up. Well, guys, again, it’s just an honor. A pleasure to be here with you all.

So my parents immigrated from South Korea to New York City in the early 70s, which is where I was born when I was quite young. I moved to St. Louis, Missouri, where there weren’t a lot of Koreans where I grew up. I was there through high school. I grew up as a pretty serious musician and went to Yale for undergrad, actually, initially as a music major. And it was actually at Yale where I experienced the power of consumer technology and faith.

And a really interesting way when I was a senior, 9/11 happened. And I think everyone will remember where they were when they heard about the atrocity that happened. And for me, it was particularly painful. I had interned at a hedge fund that had some brokerages associated with it that were completely wiped out by what happened on 9/11, hit particularly close to home, being on the East Coast at that time and during that experience learned about the power of music and technology and community, because we came together as a group to host these benefit concerts. And I was a cellist on campus and we pulled together other groups in the way we advertised through that was through social media, kind of the version of that back then. What was social media where these kind of chat boards and I see a key messenger kind of environment and we advertise these benefit concerts. We saw the community, the network effects of getting the word out.

What inspired that kind of action at that time was kind of a rediscovery of my faith during college. And I talk about it later.

But a number of really influential kind of forces in my life at that time, everything from Campus Crusade for Christ to grab as a Catholic to St. Thomas Moore Chapel on campus as well. And by that ecumenical dialog and being at the intersection that really forfour. He had a really interesting kind of faith calling to come to service, and I bring up the 9/11 example because that carried with me throughout my career, going to McKinsey, working on a couple of startups, working at a large fund called Maverick, but ultimately feeling call to start with Tiwa, my co-founder in 2014, Goodwater Capital, which we believe is a value space to faith driven, purpose driven venture capital firm, which we’ll talk more about. But again, myself in a nutshell, kind of Midwest kid that now is here in Silicon Valley to try to do what we can do through venture investing to have a positive impact on the world.

Henry Kaestner: So if I remember a bit and we didn’t talk about this in the conversation leading up to the podcast, but if I remember back to 2014 and I had known to for a while, but it just started to meet you, there’s a faith story and how you guys got together. Can you share that?

Yeah, you know, there is a number, but God just kept having us meet each other.

Kind of it was serendipitous kind of flukes of nature at the beginning, but we would literally start running into each other. And we are obviously friends before. And we had gone to business school over fifteen years ago together at Stanford GSB, because when you’re ahead of me and then kind of as we were both thinking about starting our own separate firms at that time, God just found ways to bring us together. I remember one day at the Rosewood Hotel, kind of quintessential, you know, Silicon Valley shock.

William Norvell: And you ran into him there. I can’t believe I at the Rosewood.

Eric Kim: I know. I know. But it was like kind of in the thick of both of us thinking about an entrepreneurial venture. He was at Kleiner at the time. I was at Mavericks at the time.

And we had just had a conversation before. And like literally within that, I don’t know. Twenty four to 72 hour, we met again and then had another serendipitous conversation about, hey, what would it look like to start a firm together? And we kept doing that. And then the number of stories around the investors that we would literally meet at the airport that got delayed because the plane got delayed, you know, and then we happened to sit down at the same pizzeria. They were kind of these countless very serendipitous things that happened and, you know, couldn’t help but think that, you know, God’s kind of handprints were all over that in many ways. But it was really cool to see how that came together very organically at the beginning.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I remember that she was doing something about it, really endeavoring understand how to go proceed. And as he was doing that, all of a sudden out of the blue, you called and it was just really cool, made a real impression on him. And you guys have grown together and grown. Have fun now that I think is past the billion dollars of assets under management. So God has blessed your partnership and it gives you a lot of success. Your fund that focuses on consumer technology taught us a bit about what it is that you guys do in the fund and bring it into today’s environment. Why is what you do particularly important today?

Eric Kim: Yeah, so our stated mission when we started in 2014 was to empower exceptional entrepreneurs who are changing the world. And our focus area is just consumer technology. We don’t do enterprise, SAS, security, hardware, biotech, all.

We do our digital horizontal platforms that touch the consumer directly.

And so whether that’s financial services, health care, education, online grocery marketplaces, video communications. Kiwa was an investor in Facebook and Twitter prior to joining him. I Goodwater I was an investor in Kakao Talk, part of Goodwater, which now has ninety nine percent penetration as a messaging app in South Korea.

And you can go into our company there. There’s something very unique about the power of, again, horizontal digital platforms that have network effects that every time a net new user joins in the power of that platform becomes stronger. So whether that’s a Netflix, a Spotify, telemedicine companies, financial services, fintech companies, peer peer payments, one more one more user comes into that community or that app. The whole gets stronger and that’s all we do. I could water the entire billion dollar plus of the assets we manage is just focusing on empowering exceptional entrepreneurs who are changing the world through consumer technology because consumer technology touches billions of lives on a day to day basis, if not hour to hour basis. Whether we like it or not, we are in front of these digital platforms almost every living minute of the day. And so when we think about our mission, our calling, our purpose, we wanted to focus all our energy into what we think is one of the most powerful forces from a secular perspective in the world, which is consumer tech. So we’ve been in early investors in a company called Musically, which is now called Tech Talk, which is Superfriends. Enter the news these days. And we’ve been in other companies as well, you know, all kind of stuff or more questions on this topic and love to explore any area. But I will just leave by saying a lot of those companies end up being fairly controversial also. So what? It’s Facebook about privacy, to talk about privacy or, you know, when and how should telemedicine be adopted or what’s the privacy or the security around fintech platforms?

We as a value investor, actually want to be in the thick of those conversations. We want to be right where the rubber meets the road with regards to secular innovation and where consumer behavior is changing, because we think that even if we change the trajectory of this company by one degree, we will have tremendous impact, hopefully.

So that’s where we’re focused as of today.

Henry Kaestner: So I think that that’s something a lot of people don’t think about. And so many people think of the role when they invest in private equity funds as being a passive player in an overall trend. But the reality is, is that when you come alongside an early investor and get a board seat, you’re now a partner. You have a voice at the table. And you’re right, consumer technology is a wonderful thing. We all use it to be able to have people who are speaking into the lives of the entrepreneurs to encourage them, but then also appropriately challenge them. Is there an example that you might be able to offer up over the course of the last several years, if necessary? You can leave the name out of it where there is this kind of ethical kind of fork in the road where the CEO of a consumer technology company is trying to say, we see an opportunity here, but your sense of values and faith driven, this tries to encourage them in a different direction.

Eric Kim: Yeah, that there are several points to a couple. I’ll start by stating our core values, which today are humility, integrity, transparency, quality, service. And then we’ve added a six one justice and we could talk more about that. But it’s through these lens that first we make it really, really almost painstakingly clear to our entrepreneurs before they sign up to partner with us that those are the values that we’re about. So if you want someone in your cap table that has those values, we’ll work with you day and night through those lenses. I would say, particularly with regards to consumer technology in this day and age. One of the things we’re really passionate about that has come up, frankly, time and time again.

It’s come up before I started. Goodwater, it’s ever more present today is the production of children on these platforms and whether it’s pornography, whether it’s addiction, whether it’s child pornography itself, it’s again, something that is near and dear to a lot of our hearts as parents and as family members, frankly. And we see it. It was something that there was a major platform that we were associated with. I can’t name it, but we had to really pound the table with regard to changing our growth trajectory, sacrificing some initial growth to make sure we safeguarded the children that would potentially be in the audience itself. And it comes up time and time again. But I think what is surprising and not trying to toot my own horn, we fall short in so many ways, but is that we are usually the sole voice pounding the table about these issues. And again, these companies netnet may be seen, but actually is very controversial or very, you know, potentially gray in some areas.

But what we often think about is if it’s not good or who else should sit in that void to make sure there is a voice of values in some of those situations.

So, yeah, it’s come up. It comes up and particularly around the protection of children is something that we’re seeing and we’re quite sensitive to.

Henry Kaestner: Well, as a dad, thank you for that. And William, your dad of a young child as well. So I know that, you know, was one thing when my children are a little bit older, 14, 16 and 18. And that is something that’s absolutely front and center. But you’re investing also in the companies. They’re going to be the leaders in consumer technology in the future to sit that out. When you do have that conversation with the entrepreneur and you’re pounding the table, do they wonder why is you can say, actually, you know, we’ve got this kind of moral compass that comes from something about who we are? What does that look like about why you’re pounding the table or you judge judging or versus that’s a unique opportunity to witness. And yet I shouldn’t be prescriptive even in the asking the question about how that manifests itself. But tell us more about you being the sole person pounding on the table and being completely different than the rest.

Eric Kim: Yeah, I think it comes down to mission and purpose and really getting at the roots of it. And now you mentioned shadow mission, but often we’ll come back to speaking into the hearts and the hearts already there for these entrepreneurs. They want to do intrinsically something really positive for the role. That’s why they risked everything to become an entrepreneur to begin with. But speaking into that side of it. Right. And aligning around what is that remember back what was that original mission you started this company for? It was for the purpose of serving X or Y. What was that original purpose? And as opposed to kind of what I would call often is the shadow mission. And this is popularized by John Ortberg. And John, if you’re listening, I’m praying for you, buddy, and we’ve never met. But you bless me immensely as you. But.

Henry Kaestner: The people you have ever met, senior Pastor Amen, the church here in the Bay Area, great man of God.

Eric Kim: Absolutely. But this message around a mission, I think, is actually where there is light and where there’s an entrepreneur’s kind of intrinsic nature to want to do good. And then on the other side of that is the desire to be on the cover of Forbes is to be a billionaire, is to have growth and to break all these records and to have kind of the accolade associated with it. And if we bring it back, each speaking into it is not from a moralistic perspective like this is wrong or this is right is I actually remember why you started this company to became let’s remember that real mission and take everything else aside. Take aside the case study that you want written about you take aside all the accolades that you want to take, aside the pay and think back about that mission. And that is, I think when the heart becomes most vulnerable for them and we can speak into it and whether they know we’re our faith and we’re not shy about it, we don’t necessarily advertising on our sleeves either.

But it invariably does come up in almost every conversation with the entrepreneurs we work with. I think they understand where it comes from and where it becomes real for them. Whether they are faith or not is that they have this underlying mission, which I believe God has blessed them with, and then speaking it to that and tying it to the reality that they’re faced with to make sure they’re making that choice because they can serve one or two missions in that moment.

William Norvell: Yeah, it’s so good. So good. I actually heard that sermon like eight years ago and it has changed my life and ascended to so many people. It’s just amazing to think about, you know, go in one direction. And then you have, you know, he talks about how you can just be five degrees off. Right. So a lot of times people think you’re 180 degrees off and that’s how you you know, you see your way off the path. But in reality, it’s usually just a little bit you know, you’re probably using the gifts that God’s given you. You’re probably doing all the things pretty close to it, but you’re just doing it for a little different reason. He talks about giving a sermon. He’s like, that’s what I’m gifted to do. That’s what God give me to do, is that in my shadow mission is every day I go to sleep and I wake up and I hope it says amazingly good looking, eloquent man gives incredible sermon once again, right?

Eric Kim: Yeah, it’s. Yeah. Just those few degrees off. But in an extreme sense, the articulation a few degrees off. But those few degrees are in the direction of how and how does that manifest itself for you.

William Norvell: What do you feel like you wrestle with as you were thinking through that paradigm?

Eric Kim: Yeah, I thank you for asking that. You know, when we started in twenty fourteen, Tiwa and I looked at each other and said, this is not my firm, this is not a year for this is God’s firm and kind of made that sacred vow to begin with and had that really strong misalignment.

And I think that what is the shadow mission for all of us.

I’ll speak for myself being as an investor, of being someone that you measure yourself based on the investments you make your track record. Right. The multiple and the IRR that you have created, the wealth you have created for others, take a lot of pride in that.

And I think that the shadow mission is to, as a firm or as an individual investor is to be a billionaire, to raise a certain X amount of funds, to be on a list, to get kind of the accolade associated with that track record that you establish. And when we started, the firm firms like there was never a mission to create a track record. It was to have impact.

And so I think that is the constant battle. And what I love about how Ortberg popularized the notion of a shadow mission is that it’s not to say we’re going to all just be pure and wash ourselves or this is just to say it’s part of us. It is there. We can’t just cut it off.

It’s really acknowledging because part of my pride and my ego is to be the best in investing is to have the best rapper is to be one of the most successful venture capitalists. I know it.

It’s there. But naming it and making sure that that is not what I’m feeding on a day in, day out basis is so important.

But unless I name it up front and understand that that is my kind of natural tendency, I think that is really what has preserved our partnership, which is really important that Goodwater and actually helped it blossom because we’re not looking towards our own self fulfillment. We’re really looking towards the fulfillment of the mission itself. Now, we fall short all the time. I want to be really clear. It is so hard. Right. And it’s just like those magical moments when a brother like Henry with our Christian Accountability Venture Capital Group, you know, can hold you accountable to some of these things and to check your ego. And again, it’s just that constant battle that we’re in that I would just again, encourage everyone who might be listening to this. Like just what is that shadow mission of yours from the investment or from a secular business perspective?

And name it, don’t be afraid of it, but name it in the hopes that you can sometimes check it at just those crucial moments.

Henry Kaestner: I want to dove into that a little bit more because you’re on to something there that, of course, plays all of us as Christ, not just us as fund managers. It’s riffing on Proverbs 16, two and twenty one to all of a man’s ways seem pure to him, but his motives are weighed by the Lord. And every time I read that, I am so incredibly convicted and I have these shadow missions and the danger, if you have some level of success in the world and especially the Christ followers, that you can pretty much justify almost everything you’re doing in terms of trying to create value and trying to participate. And much that might be true. But you might have this 80 percent of what you’re doing can absolutely be defended as I’m investing for the flourishing of society. But when selfishness or the approval of others kind of seep in, it takes us further away from God. And so you’re doing and through the work of John Ortberg. But what you’re really showing here is that you have endeavored what you want just to be that much more conscious of it in the humility that comes with that. Let me just say that that’s different from what you hear from the typical Sandhill Road venture capitalist.

Eric Kim: I have to just thank you, Henry, in particular, because you’ve been a great mentor to me. And I go back and remember one of the most impactful things you said to me, which I think applies to anyone, regardless of where you might be on a wealth scale or where you are in life.

But the metaphor holds true.

And you said to me, Eric, never get liquid because you may have seen, I think, in some other folks lives just what happens when folks achieve some success in the notion of equity. Again, doesn’t matter where you are a scale, that notion is that you suddenly have like this freedom to just do whatever you want because you’ve got this kind of accumulated currency of here on Earth. You can just do whatever you want. And certainly it pertains to the wealthy. And I think it pertains to everyone just kind of mentally from a currency of feeling in need and on our knees for Christ and on our knees because we realize how dependent we are on the Lord and then going to being in a quote unquote, liquid situation. Where to your point, I do whatever we want. I got the resources I can hop on this plane. I can maybe get this really nice kind of luxury item here or things like that. And I’m not saying nice things are bad, not by any means. But at the same time, what happens is we’re disconnected. We’re going from not just being part of this world, but being of this world in that moment. And I just remember back when you told me about that, it’s just like a conversation we can all have and be very real about like what does that mean for us? You know, whether I’ve accumulated that like an extra few bucks through the stock market as a couple bucks a couple of weeks, like, does that suddenly change your mental state somehow and your attitudes towards the Lord and God? And I think particularly it’s just something we have to really be mindful in being in the investment world.

Henry Kaestner: I completely agree. That was very encouraging what you said. I need to give credit for that to Jim Bowen, who is the founder and CEO of First Trust Portfolios, a very early investor in Bano.

On the personal side, he just had set on a ministry board with David and came on board and we went out and met with him and he said, guys? And he dressed and looked a lot like Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko character in Wall Street. I’ll never forget. He said, never get liquid. I’ve seen it just destroy families. And on the flip side of that, and there’s the cautionary side, the investor that I look to as a mentor, just an incredible class act, really godly man. It’s a guy named Tom Darden. And Tom ran and continues to run Cherki Partners, two and a half billion dollars worth of real estate assets and huge land holdings in India and other places like that, really the best in the world. And what he does, which is to renovate what are called Brownfield’s real estate that has some sort of oil damage or something like that. And Tom rides a bike to work. He has immense wealth. But one of the things that really grounds him is not just his faith, but the fact that he is never liquid. Every single time he has any type of liquidity, he’s investing in the next entrepreneur that comes around. He has hundreds of investments and different technologies that are really making a difference in the world. And he does it every cent whenever they go public, he immediately sells the stock, not immediately. But he’ll tell you, you know, he looks for an opportunity, sell stock and then put it in another investor. And as a result, he never has the liquidity around him to think about buying another yacht. And in the process, because he’s investing in illiquid assets, either a private equity or venture capital fund like you all have, or an individual angel investments, he’s really creating part of the fabric of the enlargement of society. So thanks for having said that as encouragement to me, but I need to give credit to Jim Bowen and then to the guy, his model that out for me, Tom Dart also.

William Norvell: Let’s get. I usually steal John shuttle mission statement, but you already knew about it, so I can’t take credit for it. You’re like the one guy that listen to the deep tracks and, you know, really upsets me. ERG, I want to take one step back. You mentioned a phrase kind of in passing, but I think especially for our audience. Want to go. You said you were faith driven, venture capital firm. You know, and I know we’ve gone around the world a little bit on what that could mean in certain situations. But I want to give you a chance just to maybe from the highest level say, what does that mean to you? Do you look at investments differently? Do you work with your entrepreneurs differently, 100 different things? Do you work with your team differently? Just what does that mean to you? In the essence? Because I think there’s a lot of people listening that either are that or want to be that. And I think you have a really unique lens on what that means.

Eric Kim: Yeah, it’s evolving for us. And in 2014, we launched with this mission of empowering entrepreneurs who are changing the world and did everything we could to serve that mission in 2020. Amidst the pandemic of covid-19, amidst the pandemic of racism, which continues to burn across our nation and world, we added a sixth value of justice to our five preexisting values. And the reason I bring this up is that I would say that we launch in 2014 with our mission in 2020. I feel like we reemphasize or rediscover our purpose itself, and that is to bring justice and healing to the world. Again, the notion of justice is that being inspired by Michael six, eight, how do we bring justice to the world? And I think that is again, where the rubber meets the road for us. That is how we try to measure ourselves as being a corporate faith driven venture capital firm or being leaders of faith leading a venture capital firm. I think those are almost synonymous or I would hope they could be. I hope that who I am on Sunday is the same as who I would be on a Wednesday or Friday. And so that, I think is through the lens of are we really bringing justice to the world? We look at investments through that lens in the consumer techland. Is this really going to bring justice of some sort to the world? We recently looked at a company bringing telemedicine to the mental health space and it’s frankly heartwarming. Inspirers reinspire us every time we meet an entrepreneur that is so mission oriented and it aligns with his value of justice that we can actually bring some kind of healing to the world itself through our investments. It also makes us think a lot about our Elche base. We’ve been, as Henry mentioned, really, really fortunate to be at the scale we are in six years and.

Thinking about where do we take capital from, are they values align? Do they also align with our desire to positively impact the world? And it’s not just lip service, but something they’re willing to, you know, go to battle on our behalf for and then certainly our employees. I think that we’re a team of about 30 folks here in Burlingame. And how do we think about who we hire? Are they values aligned? And do they share this maniacal desire to change the world for the better? And I think that is our current manifestation. I think this will probably change and mature. But right now we feel like we’re in the thick of the battle right now. And so when we prioritize the various meanings of what a quote unquote, future of an investor could be in our current state, the current chapter in what we’re prioritizing is should be on the front line of really trying to push this impact, to bring justice, to bring healing to the world. That is kind of what is driving us right now and what we’re prioritizing within the spectrum of what that could mean. And then we’re doing it through our investments. We’re doing it through the people we hire and to help capital that we take on.

William Norvell: It’s amazing. That’s an amazing articulation of what that means to you guys and really appreciate that.

And your whole team would think that comes to mind as I try to get a little practical at some level.

As you know, a lot of people here are doing investments and obviously names don’t need to be included in this at all. Could you maybe walk us through a few investments that didn’t meet that criteria?

You know, companies that you saw that you said, I mean, gosh, if we weren’t us to invest in that, that’s going to make a lot of money and it’s going to be a success. And, you know, we may get a call about that from one of our LPs that ask you better have a good reason for passing on that one.

Eric Kim: You know, if this comes up for us in the financial services space quite a bit. So if you think about fintech companies broadly and Henry and I at William with you as well, we have been co-investors in some wonderful fintech companies that are really bringing kind of the banking to the unbanked, if you will, or bringing the access to the financial services, to the broader community, which is wonderful. I think where we’ve said no flat out to certain investments is where we feel like it’s taking an unfair break from the consumer with regards to lending, with regards to some of the interest rates that are being applied, there are rules of consumer protection out there already around what you can charge. But there are companies that get around it, I would say, through some questionable practices. And so that’s something where we have felt like this is a huge business opportunity and it’s very subjective. Right. My view of it is going to be very biased. But what’s quote unquote fair? What’s a fair interest rate to charge someone, for example? That’s what it comes down to ultimately. And I think that’s where, again, the perspective of the entrepreneurs become really clear about what side they are on in terms of where they would like to take things for the U.S. to maximize kind of short term profits, because it’s, again, very easy to justify. Well, if they were going to the black market or to some really suspicious kind of lending sources, it’s better than that. But those companies are in a position to both profit, but also to good to provide better services. I think where we’ve seen this really come in to answer your question directly, is in the lending space, sometimes we’ve had to say, you know, it’s just not worth it because it’s going to be very high, profitable company. But these practices just seem unfair. And again, I know it’s subjective, but that’s just how we feel about those situations.

William Norvell: No, that’s true. Yeah, absolutely. That’s super helpful. And yeah, unfortunately, God didn’t lay venture capital in Romans anywhere right now. There is some things you got to pray about and then you may come to a different conclusion than another investor sometimes.

Yeah. Who’s also driven by their faith. But staying close to you and what do you feel called to do is so unique and what inspires everybody, I think to figure out their own story as we unfortunately come to a close. One of the things we love to do is see how God’s word can transcend between our guest and our listeners. And we find it amazing to see how we hear from people that, you know, they just needed that verse today from that other person’s life and the intertwining of stories. And so what I’d ask you is, if you’d be so generous to share where God has you in his word, whether that is something you read today, something you’re in this season. Michael Jackson. I heard it could be that could be something else just to be great.

Eric Kim: Yeah. Thank you. And there were two things that came to mind when I was thinking about joining you today. And I think that the first is it’s just the Sermon on the Mount.

So take any part of that. But I think what I am constantly impacted is blessed are the. Or and what does that mean for us? I kind of purposely I’m calling this off because we’re in venture capital and kind of in this secular tailwind of investing and things are going up into the right and all these things.

But what does it mean to be blessed are the poor? And I would say that is something that that can mean a lot of different things for different people. For me, it’s to be poor in all things. But Christ. And I think that is just something that I hope that people can reflect about today, and obviously we’ve got a lot going on as a world politically and with the pandemic in among whatever state we’re in, we can be both kind of very sexually rich and also secondly, poor, but still not poor in the way that was being talked about in that survey. And how can we keep our hearts to really be rich in Christ and just to be enriched and Christ alone. So hopefully that makes some sense to folks and just kind of something that’s really top of mind for me.

Henry Kaestner: That’s beautiful. Thank you very much for that. And thank you for your time today. This is why we do this podcast, as you are talking about how you thought through the concept of shared ambition, how you able to listen to a sermon from a pastor and say, what does that mean in terms of my life and what does that mean for my fund, my partnership, my relationship with our peers and new companies to think about the holy ambition that you can have and being a technology investor and how to be able to shape culture and be able to mentor and lead entrepreneurs that are trying to understand what is their value base, what is their north star? Can they pick any North Star or is there actually a one and only one North Star? What does that look like? Your ability to faithfully and wouldn’t similarly witness to that in a very secular world is really outstanding, is unparalleled, and it’s why we do this podcast.

Thank you for sharing your story and it’s been awesome to see your success. And I love you. Also, just as we close out, just the way that you guys got back together at the beginning of the year and said, OK, let’s revisit our vision of values, are we missing anything and let’s celebrate the success we’ve had. And to a certain extent, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And you’ve had a lot of success. But how do we get sharper and how do we pray together about how God would use this fund in our lives? And that’s super encouraging. So thank you.

Eric Kim: Thank you so much. Such a blessing to be with you all today. My partner is listening to this. I just want to call my my brother Kiwa sharpens me every day and again with other folks around us has really been just so instrumental, got used to actually in my life. And I just want to say I love you, brother, and thank you.

Thank you so much for joining us on today’s show. We’re very, very grateful for the opportunity to serve the larger faith driven investor community. Hey, the best way for you to stay connected is to sign up for our monthly newsletter at Faith Driven Investor Dog. And while you’re there, we, of course, want to hear from you. We derive great joy from interacting with many of you. And it’s been very rewarding to see people join the discussion now from all around the world. But it’s also very important to us that you feel like this is your show and that you’ll help make it something that best equips you on your journey, one that you’re proud of and one that you’ll share with others.

This podcast, it wouldn’t be possible without the help from many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Formate Program Director Johnny Wil’s Music by Karl Carl Chigwell. You can see and hear more of his work that summer, Drugstore.com and Audio and editing by Richard Bahle of Cornerstone Church in San Francisco.

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Marcus Stroud’s story is one you might not even believe as you hear it. He experienced ups and downs as his life intersected with people like President Barack Obama and MLB All-Star Torii Hunter. 

There was a time when he lived in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Dallas, and times when he was homeless. And while you’re going to have to hear the details from Marcus himself, one thing you won’t miss is the faith, perseverance, and sheer tenacity that Marcus shows in all aspects of his life, including his work at TXV Partners, which he’ll share more about today. 

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome to the feature of an investor podcast. If you’re a fund manager, investor or financial adviser, are driven by your faith or want to be driven by your faith, then you’re in the right place. The best way to stay connected in the faith driven investor community is to sign up for our newsletter, Faith Driven Investor ERG. This podcast doesn’t exist without you, our community. One of the things we’ve heard the community asks for is help in finding great deals to invest in. And so we’ve launched Marketplace. It’s a new platform of funds and direct deals, everything from private equity and real estate funds. That’s from philanthropic to market rate deals made in the U.S. in emerging markets. Check it out. At the age of an investor ERG for slash marketplace. While you’re there, please send us any thoughts you have about how this podcast might better serve you or any questions you have about being a faith driven investor.

All opinions expressed on this podcast, including your team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guest may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization.

Hey, everybody gets the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We are so happy you’re here. Marcus Stroud story is one you might not even believe as you hear it. He experienced the ups and downs as his life intersected with people like President Barack Obama and MLB all star Tory Hunter. There was a time when he lived in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Dallas and times when he was homeless. And while you’re going to have to hear the details from Marcus himself, one thing you won’t miss is the faith, perseverance and sheer tenacity that Marcus shows in all aspects of his life, including his work at TV Sex Partners, which will share more about today. I’ll let him take it from here. Let’s listen in.

Welcome back to the future of an Investor podcast. We’ve got a special guest with Marcus Stroud today. And as you’ve probably gathered, this is the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast podcast where we look at sharing stories about people are really making an impact in the larger faith driven investment movement. And just as a quick recap, as you undoubtedly come to understand, there’s a new model of investing. The old model had been that a Christian might take all their assets and put up here on the left hand. If you could see what I’m doing right now up on my left hand, make as much money as you possibly can. And then to the extent you understand the biblical message of generosity, you give it away on the right hand side. And a collection of us, a movement of us have come to understand that the very process of putting investment capital to work might accomplish the same types of ministry goals that we otherwise had done and are giving. And we don’t have to give up market return to do that. We can do that across geographies, asset classes, different return profiles from market return to gospel, catalytic and in that big player, of course, our funds and private equity funds. And they tend to find themselves in two different categories. One are people who have been fund managers for a long time, many of whom have worked at some really established secular funds and are bringing their faith to work, bringing things like chaplaincy and with their portfolio. And there’s another breed of fund manager that’s coming out, seen a problem and an opportunity in the marketplace, taking some of their background, some of their drive and their passion and starting a new fund, doing it with spiritual integration at the core of what they’re doing. And this interview that we have with Marcus is in that latter category, somebody starting a fund with a great background, great intentionality. Some things we think are super unique and just overall. Great story. So, Marcus Stroud, welcome to the program.

Marcus Stroud: Thanks for having me. Thank you, guys. Big fan of the program and really excited to be here.

Thank you. Thank you. So we’re going to get right into what you do. You work at Tsvi, but before we do that, we want to hand the mic back over to you and give you a chance to share your story. I’ve heard parts of it, but I want to turn over to you and just hear what it was like growing up. Who are you? Where do you come from?

Marcus Stroud: Yes, thanks a little bit about me. Who am I? Where do I come from? I grew up in a small town called Prosper, Texas. Prosper is about thirty minutes outside of Dallas Fort Worth. A lot of people know about Prosper now because we’re about ten minutes away from the headquarters of the Dallas Cowboys. My story, how I end up and prosper. My father was an NFL player from our sports reporter, and when I was young, my father actually watched my mother. And so my mom was a single mother, raised my brothers and I. And, you know, we had a pretty tough background, you know, growing up. But we were fortunate in that she had married an individual who had bought some land out prosper. We moved there kind of before the huge real estate boom that had happened in north Texas. And, yeah, that’s how we end up. And Prosper is a really, really cool time, because in Prosper, there was only like, I’d say, fifteen hundred people. But of the six or seven African-Americans that were in Prosper, five of them were famous athletes like Deon Sanders and Tori Hunter. And so I had a really cool opportunity to grow with some really cool.

Seen and live in a really cool town, so tell us about that, some of these athletes that you came across or any of them role models.

Yeah. So, you know, grow and prosper is cool because, like I said, it’s not that many people there. And so you have to access to these athletes and so you get to live with them and see them on a day to day basis. And so for me, being one of the few affluent African-Americans kind of in that area that wasn’t an athlete, they were always enamored by the fact that my family was well-off, but they weren’t athletes. And so we had many, many dinners where they talked about business with my mother and my stepfather. And it was just cool because a lot of these guys were looking for the next year in their life. And so a Tory would have, you know, a lot of his friends like Gary Sheffield and a ton of folks over. And they’d be asking my stepfather ideas about real estate or about music, and they’d be asking my mom questions about the radio because she was working in radio at the time. And so, you know, it was cool to see my mentors or people like Toriano where people like Deon Sanders growing up and, you know, they all had kids my age. And so we had a very competitive sports background. We had a bunch of Tier one athletes and that led to a lot of folks coming down to recruit. And so so it was just a very, very competitive environment. Super awesome. And, you know, those guys proved to be unbelievable for me later in my life, which I guess I’ll go into. You know, my mom and my stepfather had a lot of success and they were doing really well right before the financial crisis happens. We actually had an opportunity to host President Obama at our house for a fundraiser. And so they were looking for a rural kind of town that exemplified Texas, if you will, you know, that had hay bales and all that out there. And so they chose to come post them at our house. And so it was truly an insane moment, an opportunity for our family, because, you know, you had the soon to be president United States. You have several senators, you have several A-list celebrities. And, you know, you have a guy who’s just telling his story, if you will, and just trying to meet people as he’s running for president. And, you know, that kind of catapulted our family in a way that we then had a lot of celebrities reaching out to, is asking us for advice and want to become our friends. Because obviously, if you’re powerful enough to have the soon to be president, the United States in your home, you know, you must be somebody worth knowing. And so life was pretty crazy for me, I’d say, from the ages of 12 to 14, just because we had this connection, those type of relationships. And then the financial crisis happens, I’d say about eight or nine months into President Obama’s presidency. And we began to lose a lot of things. We had a lot of holdings in real estate and that started to kind of go south. His record label wasn’t doing too well. People were booking shows for a lot of the jazz artists that were his record label, as well as some of the Christian artists that were on his label. And so my step father began to kind of take it out on the family through kind of verbal abuse, eventually some physical abuse with my mother. And then one day it kind of got to the point where he said, Marcus, we’re throwing you guys out. I’m throwing your mom out. You got a choice. You can stay with me in this beautiful mansion. We have all these cars. I’ll take care of you or you can live with your mom. Of course, we’re going to go live with my mother. And so, you know, that was kind of one of the first times in my life I would say I had really had to rely on God is probably the best way to put that. You know, I’ve grown up extremely grateful. You know, my grandfather became a great grandfather was Dick. And, you know, we have several ministries in our family. I was baptized at four years old. I know Jesus my whole life at that point. But I never had been faced with adversity like that, you know? And we just joined the Church of the Family.

And I remember standing up to join the church. The pastor said to us, you know, when you choose to truly follow Christ, when you choose to truly follow Jesus, that is when the enemy tries to attack you sometimes the hardest because you know so much of a threat you are.

And we saw it firsthand.

You know, it was just so crazy to me that you just really dove into your faith. You just joined the church as a family. You just try to believer, as I’m a true believer now you kind of are homeless. And so anyway, after you left, my mom and my brothers and I go, we ended up kind of homeless living with my aunt. She had a two bedroom apartment and it was six of us living there. And so we only had one car. And we commute from her town of McAllen, Texas, to prosper every morning before the tollway in North Texas was built. So, you know, like fifty stoplights. And so it takes like an hour some change to get school. And, you know, we didn’t have any money. And so here we are kind of migrated from living in this beautiful man. Should have a president of United States in your home, having people like Martin Lawrence, you know, downstairs drinking beer with your step that you’re five deep to a car. You know, you’re getting at school. I’d say three thirty four in the morning because your aunt has to be at work in South Dallas by about eight a.m.. A browser to be an elementary, your mom has to be whatever gate she had at the time. And so that was a very, very tough time for me. But it was in those moments where I feel like my faith really became the center of my life.

Henry Kaestner: That’s really powerful. That’s incredible. So tell us what happens next. You go from. Really haven’t at all people looking to you, you probably some level of your identity is coming from the fact of, you know, who’s in your house to really having that all taken away. You lean into your faith and really dedicated committed to your mother, bringing out the other side of that. So you’re being formed. And what I understand some of your life as an athlete, that you’ve worked really, really, really hard in academics, but also just to make the football team and be there, just bring it through as you’re becoming a young adult. What happens next?

Marcus Stroud: Sure. Yeah. So I felt like my whole life up until that point, I was the definition of an offensive player. I wasn’t super aggressive. I love to get the ball. I was very much a happy go lucky kid who just loved to score touchdowns. And of course, would tease me because I’d never want to be tackled. I just wanted to run and score touchdowns. And I think when that adversity hit my family. I would say football was the greatest place I saw a change in how I approach life. I went from being this really skinny kid who just wanted to score touchdowns to your game to the three thirty four in the morning. You had nothing to do except lift. And I was a skinny guy. And so for me, that was my kind of sanctuary, if you will, was going to that weight room and just lifting and lifting when the coaches around and just kind of getting after it. And we couldn’t play any hip hop music in. Our coaches would get to the way they would get to the office around 5:00 a.m. So I would just play worship music and play old school rock and working out so that worship in that rock just really got me fired up every morning. And I just heard God’s voice. So clearly, Marcus, I am doing some things for you that you don’t know right now. You just have to keep working hard. You have to keep working hard. You have to demonstrate excellence. And I’d always ask myself, God, you know, this guy like, why do I have to demonstrate excellence? I’m the one who’s going home to no home, if you will. You know, I’m the one who when I did eventually get a car from my first car from my grandparents, I couldn’t afford to drive back to my aunt’s house. So I would sleep in the parking lot at Wal-Mart or Whataburger because I didn’t have enough gas to go back and forth between the colony and prosper. You want me to demonstrate excellence? You want me to demonstrate you. But I’m sleeping in my car here at Wal-Mart here at Burger. Then I’m coming in here and I’m getting after it and I’m busting my butt on the field. And I was so angry for so long because I was like, why me? Why me? And then I just stopped asking, why me? And I just started trusting his plan. And so I was always a really, really good student. But I sort of take it to the next level and school for me, I didn’t really care about getting good grades. I just cared about doing well enough in the classroom and doing the best I could on the field to get myself a scholarship to a really good school identically because I had seen my dad who was in the NFL, who did do well after a couple of years in NFL with money and etc.. I see what happened to him. And I said, God, if it’s your will for me to be a professional football player one day, you can make that happen from any school in America. But I know you’re calling me to be an example to other men, especially African-American men, someone who can rise to the top academically as well as politically and build something from that. And so my life kind of at that point was let me be the best I can and everything I do. And so eventually I became the first to your captain in my school history. I became the first four year class president in my school’s history.

It was funny right around the time the four year class president was actually five years. I was president from eighth grade through my senior year.

Yeah, for your class president. And, you know, it was on honor roll everything. President of FDE. I was doing all the right things. I won three presidents community service awards for serving hundreds and hundreds of hours of community service each year. I had one two mock trial competitions as one of the top young my trial attorneys in Texas. And so I was doing all the right things. But I was also working three jobs. I was working at a construction company, a barbecue restaurant in high school and high school. Yeah, as well as Abercrombie and Fitch. And, you know, I just didn’t really have any joy, if you will, because I didn’t really live a regular childhood. I’ll do the working or I was working competitively in sports where I was working academically. And so it was just continuous grind, grind, grind, grind. And I didn’t really understand it at that time, but I knew that God would send me something special. So anyway, my senior year comes around, you know, I’m starting to get some opportunities in football. You know, I’ve been man all state and things are going really well for me. And then, you know, one day we have a really, really big game against one of the top teams in the state of Texas. And I’m going against one of the top tackles in the state of Texas. And the kid beat me up. Basically, he wins the one on one. And I remember my coaches pulling me into the office after the game saying, hey, man, we know there’s not a lot going on, you know, for you at home right now. We know that you guys just lost your house because we got it home. We got evicted from it. We want to help you. And so my coach had offered to help me and, you know, financial ways and connect with people.

And they said, I think all the people we really want you to kind of buddy up with and get to know. Well, as Tori Hunter is just kind of how Tori came in my life. Tori son, always one of my best friends. He was one of our star football players also. But is that really became kind of a surrogate father, if you will? And so Tori and his wife, Sarah, mom, dad said, look, we’re going to take Marcus and we’re going to help your family out. We’re going to give you guys money so you can have some money set aside for a home over the next 12 months. But Marcus is going to live with us, you know, to go from work in ten thousand jobs, you know, busted by the school dealing with all the recruiting.

The tough part about the recruiting and the football thing was, you know, coaches like come to your house when they’re paying you a visit. We didn’t have a home to come to. So I always had to be coach at a restaurant or at my school in a weight room. And so it was so embarrassing. But now that he was in my life that when I was done with these guys, they could come by the house and in all these things. So it’s like my life was transformed overnight and it was just so, so humbling because, you know, you have one of the at at the time. You like the high speed MLB player, you have the highest paid baseball player essentially taking care of you, giving you everything you need, you know, you’re living with your best friends, his kids, and you’re just living this incredible life, but your family still trying to find their way. And so it was kind of a weird time for me because, yes, I was so grateful to have God bless my family through these unique ways, through touring and through other folks that I stepped into our life. But at the same time, I hated the fact that I was living this glamorous life that my family was struggling. So from there, I had the opportunity to actually go play football at Princeton. You know, I was being recruited by them as being recruited by a couple of the schools. And when it came down to it, I prayed about it. And the Lord, it just kind of showed me that prison was a place to go. And so, yeah, that’s kind of where my childhood, I guess, thought, if you will, and the Lord has blessed with incredible opportunity to go play ball at Princeton.

Henry Kaestner: So this is a great time and I should have done this at the outset. Marcus is an incredible story, an amazing story. I should have introduced my co-host for the future of an investor podcast up front. Don’t worry, William isn’t going anywhere. William continues to be part of faith driven entrepreneurs this Rusty. But as we continue to launch the movement, a feature of investing and I think that will in listening land, we can all agree that Luke’s job as emcee of the featured investor conference was second to none. And so with the momentum from that, we’ve asked him to come on board and dysmorphic driven investor podcast he’s on. And this is a great time for Luke to join best friend and business partner, super guy, really serious about the movement of veteran investing. He’s a practitioner in it. He is also a former college football player and had met Marcus and was the one that encouraged us to talk to him. So very appropriate that this is Luke’s debut. Luke, maybe you say a word and then just continue with the podcast, asking Marcus some questions, please.

Luke Roush: Yeah, thanks. Anyway, it’s good to be on. And Marcus could spend some time with you a couple of weeks ago, and it’s wonderful to have you on today. So just jumping right back into where Henry left off. So you graduate, you go to Princeton, you play there, obviously get a great education, then you get to work on Wall Street. Maybe just talk us through that transition. How did that feel in terms of your relationship with your family? And then you end up in this Ivy League school and on Wall Street, like just kind of walk us through what that felt like, what that what that was like?

Marcus Stroud: Yeah, it was incredible. You know, I think going to a school like that opened my eyes to a world I’d never seen before. And it was humbling because, you know, you go to school kids that went to, you know, some of the most prominent private schools in the world, their parents or some of the the biggest titans in their respective industries. And you know, that, er, if you will, becomes unbelievable to you in the sense that, like, wow, if I work really hard, I can achieve these things. But what stuck with me, though, I would say beginning my sophomore year in college, I didn’t like some of the alumni I had met, how they carry themselves. And let me unpack that. I didn’t like the fact that they may have been unbelievably successful. You didn’t see that Godlee there, if you will. It was very much their story. It was very much their identity, their success that that that that that. And I hated that because I saw so many of my teammates who began to follow that path. Also, I need to go to Wall Street to make X amount of money. I need to be rich. I need to be this and that. It just creates so much brokenness and so much just instability long term, if you will, by just having that type of mindset. And so anyway, I said, you know, that is a place I feel like God is called me to be. I feel like my ministry can be on Wall Street. And I’m not saying I can go into a firm and change that firm, if you will, as a first year associate. But if I can be someone who is on Wall Street but is striving to present a godly example, then what about the next Christian young man or woman who wants to be on Wall Street and has a hope and doing it because it’s so secular? What if I am able to encourage him to do it just by my example? And so anyway, that’s what led me to Wall Street. And so I began my career on Wall Street. And, you know, the first day of work, the very first day of work, I’m getting ready to leave my apartment in Tribeca and make my way up to Midtown. And my brother calls me and he’s like, Hey, man, I hate to bother you. I know it’s your first day of work. I know it’s super early, but I need some money to catch a cab. The Praxis right now. Let me catch cab. Do you guys want a car like you don’t have? You guys, last time I checked, your house wasn’t that far from high school. What do you mean you need money? It goes well, Marcus. We’ve actually been living in a shelter the last month. And you got to the point where we’ve been here so long that, you know, we’re going to probably be kicked out soon. You know, we need some help. And I’m starting football today. And I don’t want my teammates know that I’m homeless. And I think for me, like, I get the image in my head when I think about where I was when I got that call, it just shook me up because it’s like no matter how hard we work, no matter how much we sacrifice, no matter how much we prayed, no matter how faithful we think we have been, it makes me think of a story, a job. It’s like we’re still struggling, you know, even though I am, if you will, successful. We’re. Still struggling, even though my middle brother is going to pull out of Purdue, they’re still struggling. And so that’s what it was like, you know, and so I began my career there and I sent them some money. I just got a signing bonus that day, sums of money. And that was part of my time in New York. It was, you know, you bust your butt, you work hard, you’re doing your thing, you’re grinding. You’re trying to be the best young associate possible. But you’re not like your friends. You’re not like your colleagues. You don’t just go home or you don’t just look forward to the vacation. You’re going to take the Turks and Caicos and you look forward to bonus season and thinking about the next Rolex you’re going to buy or the next pair of Gucci loafers you’re going to buy, you’re literally saying, how can I save up enough money to be able to send my family a meaningful amount of capital, but also be able to start saving away, you know, for things like rings when I want to marry the woman I’m dating or just little things like that, you’re just thinking in a different mindset than a lot of your peers. And so that was a very challenging time for me just because a lot of times my head wasn’t where my college head was.

Luke Roush: Yeah, I think that’s sensible. I watched a number of my teammates, you know, when I was playing in college, too, just had not completely dissimilar experiences. And so that can be hard in terms of just kind of building community and feeling a part of what’s going on. So just on the Wall Street front, maybe talk through a little bit of how your faith played out in that world, which is, you know, oftentimes thought of as being kind of a dark, isolated place. How did that play out for you?

Marcus Stroud: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people see Wall Street and they think of movies like The Wolf of Wall Street. And I would say, given my youth, a lot of those Praxis are definitely bad now. And you see some of those things that occur in the office the way they probably used to do back in the day. But at the same time, I would say the mentality is still very much there. You know, it was still very much a cutthroat environment. Money was still top of mind for people, not morality. And that’s tough because if you’re not bought into the place to work and it’s just like being an athlete, if you’re not bought into the team, if you’re not bought into the motto and mentality of the team that you’re playing for, you’re not going to be a good teammate. You’re not going to be able to fulfill your potential as an athlete. And I think the same way can be said for Wall Street. At the same time, you need to make money and you need to be successful, you know, to live it. So you try to, in a unique way, be a hybrid of sorts, be someone who is unbelievably hungry, unbelievably scrappy, demonstrating the tenacity that a lot of Wall Street folks look for in to an analyst. But also you’re trying to demonstrate what it’s like to be a man of God while on the trading floor, you know, and that’s being someone that’s kind, someone that’s gentle, someone that’s humble and someone that demonstrates the qualities of a godly man or woman, if you will. And so that was tough because you didn’t really have any examples around you. You know, it’s like when you’re playing sports, you have upperclassmen who you can look at who do things the right way in the way they do things, the right way on the field. And you want to follow that, you know, and then they do things the right way off the field. You don’t see them doing stupid stuff on a Friday night or Saturday night. You know, they’re doing the right thing all around the clock for me. I didn’t really have that, if you will, in front of me at the firm. I was at it. So they’re all really, really good people, but good as it gets to the head of it. And so, you know, I had to kind of go above and beyond. And so I was fortunate that I had teammates who I walk with through my four years in college spiritually, and they now become part of Wall Street also. And they were working at some really cool banks. And so we would get together, we would go to church together, we would have a small group together. We would pray together during the week and we’d say, hey, man, like, how can I be praying for you this week? You know, as you’re working on, these trades are going to be praying for you this week as you had these tough meetings with your bosses or as bonuses and comes around. And it’s very easy to get swayed by the dollar amounts and to lose sight of the fact that God is ultimately going to provide you the provision that you need. And so that’s what it was like for me as a Christian on Wall Street is just continually searching and searching and searching for examples and mentors and people to look to. When I realized at the end, like, hey, man, God hasn’t called you to look for humans as examples of him. He’s called you to be rude in scripture and to get your example from scripture first and foremost. And so that was probably something that really changed my life, knowing that scripture had to be first and foremost for me as I look for resources to be an example of Christ in the workplace.

Henry Kaestner: OK, I want to fast forward now to what you do. You’re an investor. This is the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. And I want to get into what you’re doing, but I can’t do that without telling you about CIC First Clubhouse Investment Club. What was that? What problem were you looking to solve? Bring us into an investment career?

Marcus Stroud: Yes, that’s really my firm in New York. I work for a fund in Austin. Longevity considered as focused hedge fund. Really, really awesome. Learned so. I had a chance to be a part of their one point seven billion dollars class vehicle that was on the advisory board and then a couple other funds they had worked on. And it really gave me a tremendous amount of exposure to the alternative asset class. And just as I was going to go work for another fund, I would say pure fun of the one I was at. Tauri calls me and he says, Hey, Marcus, I’d love for you to be a part of the clubhouse. And so in 2011, in 2010, there was a third party called Broke Town, why athletes go broke and end up being one of the top three players using the release. And a lot of those guys in that theater for 30 Winfried Substory with a bunch of those guys were friends and stories growing up. And so I grew up around these guys. I mean, I knew them pretty well. And so toread created the clubhouse. And that’s required as a way for athletes to co-invest alongside primitivist capital for a premier private equity funds and for some of those guys to be direct LPs in those funds to those guys would kind of bring their money together and have an LP position, because, you know, a lot of these guys figure out how much money they make. They didn’t have enough capital to be LPs by themselves and acquire Perkins’ or a Koslov interest. Fine. But they had enough as a group to be an LP, if you will. And so that was the clubhouse. It’s my job in the clubhouse was I really took it over. So I manage all the relationships with athletes. I manage the relationships with the managers in which the athletes were working with some of those funds. And I helped them get deal flow from CDC. Every A is kind of what we focused on, got the guys really awesome opportunities. And yet I was kind of like a liaison, if you will, between them and some of the top four in Silicon Valley.

Luke Roush: That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing on that. And it had to be a lot of fun just being able to work and operate in that space and also being able to just improve access for some special people to be able to get access to the funds that otherwise wouldn’t be accessible. How did you bridge kind of from that into tech savvy and want to hear more about what you’re doing there?

Marcus Stroud: Yes. So doing the clubhouse was, like you said, it was an unbelievable dream. I mean, I’m literally working with some of the guys I’ve looked up to my whole life on the field and, you know, some of the most well-known athletes in the world. But there is a major opportunity. And it’s like for me, I never had a dream of being entrepreneurial, if you will, early in my life.

I feel like this is one of the first times in my professional career where does tangibly was showing me through people in three things, the path that he wanted me to take, because this was never my dream in my head. My dream was, you’re going to work at a fund, then work with this fund, you’re going to do well, and then you’ll probably end up at a firm like TPG for 10 or 15 years. You’ll see well there maybe stay open. Maybe you’ll try to break ranks there and that’s going to be it, essentially, and then you’ll find other things to be passionate about.

I never thought this early in my life I would throw the entrepreneurial out. And so at Club House, I was meeting some really, really awesome people.

And one of the people I met was a guy named Bret Jones. And Bret was a incredible tight end for the San Francisco Forty Niners who eventually went on to have a really, really awesome, you know, private equity capital career where he started a phone call working capital was at its peak, was a four point four billion fund of funds. And so he had used the scrappiness of being a star 49ers football player to get access to Sequoia in 1992 and Excel and all these other great fun super early on. And then he eventually raise the funds to be helped in those funds.

And so he ended up moving to Southlake, which is a suburb outside Dallas with his wife. Once he got down, lived in the valley, and we were introduced through another NFL player named Steve Wasniewski. And so, Brittny, you know, we got breakfast and then we had coffee and we would just talk about life, talk about what it means to be a man of God in that space and how it was for him starting a foot in one day just kind of said to me, you can do it, man. He gave me kind of that conviction that I could do it. He said, you can start a fight. I think the courthouse is cool. I think it’s awesome. But you’re a unique guy. You’re a type of guy who entrepreneurs love and you’re the type of guy that investors are going to like also. So anyway, after I met with Brett, I said I need to go talk to more people. If I to start a fund, I need to go talk to more people because, yes, the clubhouse is such a cool opportunity. But I know we’re missing something and maybe being a starter fund or maybe it means I should enhance certain aspects of the clubhouse. So we went out to San Francisco, we met with my partner and I met with David Crane, Google Ventures, and you see over there. And he had said, you haven’t it, if you will. He’s like, you’re lucky, guys. Those are the words you use. You’re a lucky guy. You’re one of those guys where a lot of good things happens to you. And those aside, people are going to be really, really, really good investors and become really successful in this space. And his word was luck. My word that I was hearing was favor. And so I said, well, you know, if this man can see from his position that favor the guy that afforded me in my life, maybe I should take the next step. And so we decide to start a fund.

And the reason we want to start a fund is because we saw a tremendous amount of opportunity. As a firm in Texas, if you will, this is right around the time Austin was really becoming the hot alternative to Silicon Valley, we saw a really cool opportunity to start a fund in Austin that could represent the future of diversity. I don’t mean a firm that is like all black or firm. That’s all male or firm. That’s all Ivy League or firm that like, you know, fill in homogenous group, whatever you want there. A firm that truly could represent the future that had men and women of all different backgrounds that invested in some of the most innovative entrepreneurs that we could find and didn’t really care in terms of what color they were, what gender they were just a really unique find that truly exemplified what the future is going to look like. And that’s what I want to start. And then more importantly, I wanted to create a firm that my kids would want to work at one day and that my kids friends want to work at one day that I would have gone to work at and college, a firm that was led by godly men, you know, that were kind or gentle or meek. But we’re still some scrappy some of the guns. We’re still hungry and we’re still going to find some really awesome returns. And we’re going to still to teach investors some of the best technologies alongside some of the children in the valley. That is what we want to create. And so that is why we created it. And so it was tough because early on, you know, my co-founder and I happen to be black.

A lot of people were quick to label us as the diversity investors and as the fund that was focused exclusively on minority entrepreneurs. And don’t get me wrong, I respect funds like that. We need those funds. The fact that women and minorities receive less than one percent of U.S. dollars goes to show that you need funds dedicated to those type of entrepreneurs. But that’s not who we want to be. We didn’t want to be put in a bubble. We wanted to just be some really cool guys that entrepreneurs like to work with that invested in entrepreneurs we thought were best for our fun and contributors. And so that’s our story. So within a couple of months after spin out of the clubhouse, we convinced some the clubhouse guys to give us some seed capital to get going. We started thinking we got a little bit of press. And I would say this is kind of you know, we’ve got has shown some favor in us, know, I would say like maybe two months in starting the fund. We’re sitting behind a white board, we work office and we get a cold call from this random number. And this guy on the other line says, hey, my name is so-and-so from TPG. I’d love to have you guys come in and talk to us. And I’m like TPG, the firm, like the piece. You go like this, guys, it’s possible this is not really cheap, but it was really TVG in that meeting, the founders of the firm and some of them thought it’s a little bit of our story. And what was really cool about that and why that’s relevant to this podcast right now. We got up and we told our story and we did it subconsciously, but we talked about how much God had done for us in our lives and how we felt this was our ministry, if you will, to grow his kingdom and to give back to this space. And you could tell some of the people in the room, a lot of folks who were believers were kind of like thrown off by that. But there were a couple of people in the audience who were clapping their hands and their faces just lit up because how many times have they seen folks in their space come before a room of, say, two hundred and fifty people in their Fort Worth and their San Francisco office and say, hey, we are here because of the grace of God and we’re going to build a fund that reflects that. And so, yeah, that was kind of the moment we knew, like, it’s going to be a very tough, difficult road, but we need to be here.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. So Supermoto, tell us, what does it look like to build a fund from the get go we’ve got at the center? What does that mean that you do and how are you thinking how TV is different than every other fund that’s out there then TPG So it starts with the thought.

Marcus Stroud: Leadership, in my opinion, always starts at the top. And so it’s about how do you care for people in your firm? How do you care for people when you have a small firm that many people? How do you care with your service providers? How are you being a steward of the capital, your investment trust you with? And so tangibly, how does that look? How often are we talking at team about ways in which we can improve his teammates and as members, how are we handling conflict with each other? OK, we disagree about something. Are we yelling at each other or are we saying choice words or are we demonstrating what it looks like to be brothers in Christ and talk to conflict in a godly way? We’re praying about it. We’re bringing it to elder council and they’re counseling us through it. And so that is kind of how we did. And so every Monday morning at about 7:00 a.m., we all sit down for coffee. We talk about our weekends to talk about kind of what’s on our heart. We pray for each other through everything that’s going on in our lives. You know, we asked you, like, hey, how can I be better towards you? We have candid conversations like that and we go from there. And the thing is, when you do the little things right, it carries over into the big things. So if you do the little things right by talking to your teammates the right way in the office, by talking to your service providers, even though they may have done something that wasn’t good for your firm, but by treating them with kindness and respect. It carries over into how you talk to entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs that eventually do is there’s something about you guys, there’s something about you guys, you know, like I don’t know what it is that there’s something about you guys. Maybe it’s the fact that you’re Texas, you know, it’s actually just such nice people. And that becomes your mantra. And it’s like, yeah, there is something about us, you know, the Holy Spirit is in his office. The Holy Spirit is in each of us, and that’s how we do business. And so I think we try to actively hold each other accountable spiritually, you know, physically, emotionally. And that contributes to the culture of our firm, which eventually, hopefully, as it grows, will be Amen would be something that entrepreneurs can see right away, that these guys are just different. This is not like talking to typical VC private equity fund.

Luke Roush: So, Marcus, you and I had a good conversation just about the journey with TPG specifically. And, you know, the fact that it was, you know, mixed reaction to you bearing witness testimony to, you know, what God is doing in and through you and your business partner. How has that story and that, you know, active testimony played out on the fundraising trail? You know, we’ve had experiences personally and, you know, prior to sovereigns professionally with, you know, that going over like a lead balloon. What’s it been like for you if you’ve borne witness?

Marcus Stroud: Yeah. So I think for us, we kind of hit the mark at the right time. So our fund, we focused supposedly on human performance within his reformist health policies as well as sort of price. And so for us, our investment thesis, if you will, definitely was suited for this kind of time, if you will. And so we’ve been lucky that that’s resonating with people. But I will say that being a young, diverse fun in a place like Texas definitely has its challenges.

And I don’t see it has its challenges because we’re black or whatever. It’s just like this is a state in which this asset class historically has been kind of the bread and butter of the state. And so there’s a reason there probably zero diverse funds in the state of Texas. You know, you have to go probably to Atlanta to the next closest place in the south where there is a little bit of diversity. But, yeah, it’s been tough. I would say. On one hand, we’ve been fortunate to have received the support from folks like Karta, Motley Fool and other interesting and unique strategic groups. On the other hand, it’s like a lot of people, it’s tough for them to, I guess, understand the bigger vision, because when we tell people is we’re not just an investment fund. You’re not just investing in a VC, but you’re not just going to get quarterly updates. This is not just a regular basis upon which you’re investing in. And you try to see that in a way that can resonate with, say, a nonbeliever. And it’s a little bit difficult.

You know, and one of the things that I remember we told of our first investor that resonate with him and why he wrote a check like we have a chance to have an impact on this world in a way that few funds can probably do just given where we are, the timing of the world right now and just some of the folks that the Lord has put into our life. And we were fortunate in that we did a talk, if you will, or I guess an episode on NBC Press here in San Francisco.

And we did that and it got in the hands of a lot of people and we ended up getting a letter. It was address San Quentin State Prison. And when I saw that, I thought, oh, gosh, you know, what’s one of my family members in San Quentin State Prison? And you saw this thing out in San Francisco. I was so worried. I was like, oh, my goodness, what is this? That we open it and it’s a letter from an inmate and it won’t say his name. But in the letter he says, I saw you guys on ABC Press here and I saw what you were talking about and I saw the energy you guys were talking with. And I saw I heard the goals of your firm. And it just gave me so much hope and joy behind these bars. You know, I was framed for burglary and I served four years here. And I take an entrepreneurship class here. And one of the things that I’ve learned is that, like, it’s very difficult to be successful in business, but also be godly. And seeing a young man like yourself, you know, on a platform such as NBC press here in the heart of Silicon Valley, while based in Texas, just kind of gave me a lot of hope that when my time is up here, there may be opportunities to meet people like you who may give me a chance one day.

And that letter kind of just is stuck with me because it’s like you don’t know who the Lord has for you and your life. You don’t know what impact you can give to people. You just don’t know. It just goes to show that you’re playing. It’s not your own. It’s not you’re just a part of this kind of a you’re just a puzzle piece in his creative planet. That’s it. And so I guess between the people, we’ve had a chance to in fact, the folks who’ve been introduced to, you know, it’s been mixed. On one hand, we’ve gotten some, like I said, investor commitments from some of the top unique groups in this country. And then on the other hand, you know, it’s been tough. Difficult to find LP’s that resonate with your mission. And so, yeah, that’s kind of how the country has been.

Henry Kaestner: Thanks for sharing. That’s awesome. Marcus Marcus, one of the things that we always like to do when we close out every podcast is unfortunately, we have to do now is to understand what you’re hearing from God through his word. One of the things we love to point our listeners back to is just how important it is to spend time on God’s word every day. And so it doesn’t for you doesn’t necessarily mean be something that you learn this morning, but maybe something over the last week or last month that you feel has really encouraged and equipped you and and what you and your partner of get going.

Marcus Stroud: Yeah, for sure. I’m excited to answer this question, too. Last week, I turned 27 and I was at my prom school in Akron, Ohio. And when I got there, I met a guy by the name of Aeneas Williams, and this was the Hall of Fame quarterback who is now a pastor in the NFL. And this is an unbelievable man. And this was actually my dad’s teammate on the Cardinals and my mom, my whole life is said to be Marcus. There’s one person I want you to meet in your life. In sports, it has to be a news. WILLIAMS We were in Bible study with him and his wife for a long time. He’s an incredible man. He’s someone who’s going to put a lot of prayer into the second. You mean and I just know God has told me that one day you will meet the needs. So I meet a need is when I met the event last week. And I just really, like, turn around and like God. Oh, my goodness. Wow. The day before my birthday, you really are hearing about it and had been praying, oh, my flight there is like, Lord, show me what you want for me this year. Show me how you want me to live my life this year in terms of through this forum and just through my life. And so when I met with a nurse, we end up getting together for dinner. We have been together for a lot of things. You could tell that God was at work, strategically, put us together so we could talk. And another gentleman that was with a niece, with a guy named Sean Alexander, Sean was a great running back for the Seattle Seahawks. That would be so anyway, Sean and a nice guy just put our hearts to kind of just minister, can’t we minister to these few days and man, the amount of fruit they poured in my life, the amount of just things they blessed me with was just so unbelievable. And it was something that I needed to hear and it was something that I could tell God was just saying clearly to me through them. And I think what I’ve learned is the importance of truly, truly sacrificing things around you to just listen to the God’s voice. And that means, you know, cleaning out your mornings to where you’re not distracted by the work that you’re trying to accomplish before seven thirty. You’re not distracted by all the emails that popped up the night before that you want to get you right away. It’s simply waking up and giving it to God. First and foremost, beginning your day with God, God only. That’s it. Don’t put on any hype music to get you going. Don’t do any of that. Just simply listen to God’s voice. Do it by reading scripture, do about meditating, do about praying, whatever works for you, but just truly giving the first few hours of your day to Christ. And when I tell you, both of them kind of recommend that to me. And it’s been a Praxis I’ve done now for like the last four days, it has been life changing and it has brought me so much joy by just dedicating an hour, not ten minutes, not five minutes, but an hour, hour and a half to Jesus first thing in the morning. And so that’s kind of what he showed me. Just, hey, you know, this is my firm. Your life is dedicated to me. I get to start the day.

Henry Kaestner: And it’s been like, wow, what an incredible witness that you might provide to some of these entrepreneurs that you’re investing in.

You know, being an entrepreneur is one of the most stressful positions in life, and they’re trying to understand the meaning of identity and why they’re working so hard. And that’s one of the reasons why entrepreneurship is one of the biggest areas of mental illness and even suicide. And for you to be able to show that it’s not just kind of a check, the back ten minute thing is I am all too often guilty of doing but real intentional time. I made an incredible impression on me and our listeners. I’m sure it’s going to make an incredible impression on those you invest in.

Marcus Stroud: Thank you. Yeah, I’m so grateful that God kind of showed me that over the last few weeks. When I tell you it has been life changing, I try to encourage all my friends to start doing it. It’s it’s been beautiful.

Henry Kaestner: It’s been a special treat having you on the program. I’m grateful for your time. I’m grateful for your faithfulness and what God caused you to do. I’m excited for what’s next for you. And I just want to pray for your heavenly father. We lift up Marcus and we celebrate the great work you’ve done in his life from the beginning. And dear Lord, we ask for favor and protection. We ascended. You will help him to find the right deals to invest in. We ask that you would help us to find the right investors that would come alongside him. We pray for blessings on this partnership. Said they would work together well, and that gives me great time to reflect and be grateful for the partner that I’ve got and the partners that I’ve got.

Dear Lord, we just ask that you would allow Marcus to hear more from you. His identity would be fully rooted in you and that you would give him opportunity to be able to be a great witness with gentleness and respect, but a great witness nonetheless. And when he shows excellence and shows love to. All of these things in Jesus name, amen.

Host: Thank you so much for joining us on today’s show. We’re very, very grateful for the opportunity to serve the larger faith driven investor community. Hey, the best way for you to stay connected is to sign up for our monthly newsletter at Faith Driven Investor Dog. And while you’re there, we, of course, want to hear from you. We derive great joy from interacting with many of you. And it’s been very rewarding to see people join the discussion now from all around the world. But it’s also very important to us that you feel like this is your show and that you’ll help make it something that best equips you on your journey, one that you’re proud of and one that you’ll share with others. This podcast, it wouldn’t be possible without the help from many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Forman, program director Johnny Will’s music by Carl Cagle. You can see and hear more of his work at summer drag’s dotcom and audio and editing by Richard Bahle of Cornerstone Church in San Francisco.

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How do you remove corruption from a society? How do you create lasting, sustainable prosperity in developing nations? 

Neither of these questions has an easy or obvious answer, but today’s guest is a leading thinker in how we can make positive investments in developing countries. Efosa Ojomo is co-author of Prosperity Paradox, and he’s here to help us think about how to create prosperity. 

He was such a great podcast guest that we asked him to speak at the FDI event in a few weeks, so you’ll want to tune in today and then at the conference to hear everything he has to share.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

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Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the failure of an investor podcast. I’m here with William, my co-host. William, how are you?

William Norvell: I’m doing fantastic. Gets a little hot out here in California, which is rare for an Alabama guy to say, but we’re hanging in there.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I know that you’re in a house that doesn’t have air conditioning and you’d ordinarily open the windows. But we’ve got wildfires and that’s thrown a little bit of a wrench into things.

William Norvell: You’ve got you’ve got ash raining down end times, ash over there. Right.

Henry Kaestner: It’s crazy. It really is crazy. So today we’ve got an amazing guest. And this is a big deal for me. For those who you know a little bit about my background coming out of bandwidth as we start up Sovereign’s capital, we wanted to focus on Southeast Asia. We had some good relationships in Indonesia and Singapore. And through the grace of God, we’ve made about a dozen investments have gone really, really well in investing in Faith driven entrepreneurs in Indonesia and Singapore. But increasingly, God has put Africa on my heart. And I went with my family this month. Last year I’m recording this right now in August 20, 20, August to 2019. I went back to East Africa for the first time since 1984. I’ve been in South Africa a number of times in that time. But I went back to East Africa for the first time and obviously a long, long time, you know, so incredibly impressed by the amount of advancement and just how the marketplace was just thriving. And I guess anywhere around the world, there isn’t a lot of change over the course of 35 or 40 years. But definitely in East Africa. And as we have had this ministry of Faith Driven Entrepreneur, which preceded Fater of an investor, I thought, gosh, was it look like to bring together faith driven entrepreneurs and faith driven investors to understand what’s going on the marketplace? So we had a couple of Faith Driven Entrepreneur events. One was just this kind of impromptu meet up where we had 200 faith driven entrepreneurs getting together. Nairobi went back in February to try to understand where were investors, local Kenyan Christians investing and just met? No, really just motivating great godly people in government and in industry and then again in church and then among the entrepreneurial class and just felt completely drawn into their stories, just really encouraged and just really encouraged by the way that these astronauts were able to minister to me about how they had this heartfelt mission about loving on their communities in a way that was just it was just awesome. So I’m on an Africa kick and I’ve been on one. I don’t think I’m ever going to get off it. And I came across a book, I guess it just bought in the airport. And I’m reading through this new book called The Prosperity Paradox by Clayton Christensen, and Efosa Ojomo. And I’m reading through it and just amazed by it. And it’s making the case for investing in Africa. And as I’m reading it, I knew a little bit about Clayton Christensen’s faith background. And it comes from a Mormon faith and just very vocal about how faith influences the way that he thinks about his work and unfortunate and also known that he had just passed away. And I’m reading this and seeing the contributions from his coauthor, Efosa Ojomo. I wonder if Efosa has a faith foundation as well. Wouldn’t it be incredible if he has also committed Christ Fowler and that informed his work? And so then I’m like, OK, I’m going to look for this guy. I’m going to find this author because I wonder if he is. And if he is, he might help us unlock as a group of faith driven investors, how to go about investing. And so we track him down. And as it turns out, he is a committed Christ father. He did coauthor the book. And he is also on today’s episode of Faith Driven Investor. You can’t make this stuff up. Efosa, welcome to the program.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you. Thank you so much, Henry and William. It’s really an honor to be here. Wow. Thank you.

Henry Kaestner: Super cool to have you. So we start every episode by, we’re going to get into the book, but we get to the things that guy has taught you in your life and the hopes that you’ve got for Africa. And together, mostly you. To be clear, that burns mostly on you. We’re gonna make this case for investing in Africa that you can actually do well, that you can help involved in lifting a continent out. And there’s some big deals to be done and there’s some really compelling opportunities. But before we do that, we’d like to interview each one of our guests and understand a little bit of their background. Who are you? Where do you come from?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. Thank you. So I’m originally from Nigeria and I was born and raised there till I was 16, where I moved to the States for college. I was born into a really loving family. I’ve got three siblings. We’re all thankfully Christ followers. There was one of those things where at an early age can’t really describe it. But I just had this awareness of God’s love for me and for all of us.

And so, you know, I would say my parents were what you would call a good people. They were nice people. They taught us to be kind, humble, caring, generous.

But, you know, they didn’t quite introduce the gospel to us, like we weren’t going to attend a Sunday school, that kind of thing. But I was nine years old and went to boarding school. Somehow I just was aware that there was a God that loved me, and that was when I decided to commit my life to him.

Now, since then, it’s been a journey, as any Christ follow would tell you. Ups and downs. But I would say that’s when the journey started for me. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that sort of explains my background upbringing. The connection to the US, though, is quite interesting because it also connects to the work I do today. When I was 16, I was fortunate to get a scholarship to come to college in the U.S. I bought a one way ticket. No intentions of ever going back to Nigeria. Sort of typical immigrant story. You know, you’re gonna come to America, embraced the American dream, and life was going to be good. And I got to tell you, I was there. I mean, I got a job as an engineer. I was working and bought a house, bought a car, even bought an SUV, you know, big gas guzzling SUV. And I was I was all about America. But then my life changed after I began reading about poverty, development and economics. And we can go into details as we talk.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. Yeah. So Nigeria’s this country. And maybe I’ll just talk about the elephant in the room. Many of our listeners have been in contact with people from Nigeria before that have invited them to participate in different things. And your family, too was brought into some of the challenges that are part of Nigerian. We’re going to be clear. This is episode about talking about the very good things going on in Nigeria and Africa. And yet many of us have this experience of interacting with people in Nigeria and there’s some amount of corruption. And that impacted your family, I think, with your sister.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So the thing about, you know, growing up in Nigeria and Nigeria, especially perhaps, I mean, other emerging economies, but Nigeria is this idea of poverty, which is connected to corruption, very connected to corruption, becomes normalized. All right. And that’s a big difference between, say, growing up in Nigeria and the US, you know, poverty and corruption and normalized. And so the experience you’re talking about is one that I talked about in my TED talk where my sister got her office broken into. Someone stole some stuff. She went to the police station and they essentially the folks at a police station essentially asking her for a bribe to pay a little something for them to be able to do their jobs. And for her, she was just confused, like I just got robbed. You are the police. You’re supposed to help and you’re asking me to commit another crime. And it just didn’t make sense. But that is not an anomaly. Right. That’s just one example of how corruption shows itself in the country. The problem is that gets normalized. And the idea that we can never develop until we fix everything was really ingrained in me. It was ingrained in my sister, in many people in Africa, which I think is one of the biggest issues in terms of thinking about how the country and the continent can develop.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so let’s tackle that corruption a little bit, just even at the outset. Let’s get right into it. How do you remove corruption from a society? How do you deal normalize that as a way of life? What’s that look like?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. So, I mean, there are a couple of ways to tackle this, right? One is we tackle this as a moral cultural problem. Right. So corruption is bad. We all know it’s bad. You need to stop it. If you don’t stop it, nothing can happen. And that, I think, is the dominant way. Corruption is often discussed and it’s often handled. You know, we have the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index. We have ease of doing business indices. We have, you know, world governance indices. These are, you know, these indices that show us how does a country rank in governance and corruption and so on. Right. That’s one way to handle it. If you country moves up, you know, the idea is you can get some extra investment. But then the other approach, which is the approach we take in our research, which is the approach that has worked for many prosperous countries today, is to handle it more scientifically and to do that. What we have to do is to lean into this idea of corruption and ask the question, why are people engaged in corruption? Right. Why do people engage in corruption, seem to engage in corruption in this country? Maybe not so much in this other country. Did people in rich countries today ever engage in corruption at a similar scale or level? What types of corruption are there? Right.

Are all corruption or forms of corruption created equal? And when you lean into those questions with some humility, with the understanding that you know. Maybe the folks engaging in this kind of corruption are not just all evil and terrible and there’s no hope. Maybe I need to understand the circumstance better. You begin to uncover some truly amazing insights. And that’s the approach we’ve taken. And in doing that, what we find is the vast majority of people who engage in corruption are doing that to solve a problem.

They’re doing that to typically increase incomes so they can afford a place to live so they can pay for health care so they can get justice. Like my sister. Imagine if she paid that bribe. She didn’t. Just to be clear. But if she did, it wasn’t like she wanted to choke up on whatever day she was robbed and said, I want to pay this. I want to just go be corrupt.

You know, it would be that she had to engage in it so she could get justice. And when we begin to unpack why people engage in it and the different forms, we begin to see the role, the critical role, innovation, entrepreneurship and increase in investment can actually play in helping people and communities mitigate incidences of corruption.

Henry Kaestner: So if I’m following you’re talking about the concept that development and wealth creation has this inverse relationship with corruption. So as an economy gets stronger and there’s more innovation, it feels a little bit like a chicken and egg thing. Right? Some people say, well, but I get that. But I’m I can invest any money until I see corruption go down. Are you asking people in are their stories of success in investing in places like Nigeria where investors have gone in and said, you know what? I know there’s corruption. And yet I still see opportunities and that type of investment and development has paid off for the investor while decreasing corruption? Or do I have it backwards?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. It is this notion of chicken and egg. In fact, one of the things that I said in the TED talk I gave was societies don’t develop because they’ve reduced corruption. They’re able to reduce corruption because they’ve developed. And then when you just think about how we fight, corruption requires a lot of resources and many low and middle income countries don’t have the mechanisms, the money to actually fight corruption. But to your question about other opportunities and so on. Absolutely. There are so many opportunities. The minute we begin to see things differently. Right. So one quick example is, is one that we highlight. I highlight this. A lot of my research in our book and even in the TED talk is the story of Mo Ibrahim. You know, so about 20 years ago, 22, to be more precise. He looks at the continent of Africa. No joke. And he says, I want to go and build mobile telecommunications infrastructure on the continent and get cell phones to the average African. Now, for many of your listeners who know when they hear the word Africa, the continent, I mean, what comes to mind? Poverty, corruption, malaria, destitution. I mean, it’s often bad words that are associated with the continent. Twenty two years ago, it was a lot worse. And that was you know, The Economist wrote an article, The Dark Continent essentially is saying where Africa is a hopeless continent. And the idea of mobile phones was still new. It was still new even in rich countries. So it wasn’t like it was widespread and every single person had it. Right. But he looks and says, I think I can create value if we give the average person access to this phone. Talk to a lot of his colleagues at the time, they thought he was crazy. There’s no way this continent would absorb this technology. There’s no way that people can’t eat. How could they possibly afford this? Well, it turns out that he sets up cell tell mobile telecommunications company in the midst of an Africa that poor, you know, corrupt and so on. And he is able to, in the span of seven years, create a market for mobile telecommunication services. Right. Inexpensive cell phones, mobile minutes for more than five million customers generates revenues of more than half a billion dollars a year, net income of a little over one hundred million a year and sells his company right, sells his company in seven years, 1998 to 2000 and five, four three point four billion dollars. Now, Mo Ibrahim is sitting on the list of one of the world’s richest men today. But, you know, the question is, how did he mitigate corruption? How did he fight this? Well, you have to have a strategy to deal with whatever obstacles come your way when you decide to invest somewhere. And so for him, he said we’re going to have a zero tolerance policy on corruption. And so when they went into a country, they made sure they began building relationships with top. Level government officials that were not corrupt. I mean, there’s this idea that every single person on the continent is corrupt. That’s really not the case. So he built relationships there. Then he set policies within his organization that if you’re going to cut a check for anything over thirty thousand dollars, you have to get board approval. We have to make sure we understand why we’re cutting the check and so on. Now, at the onset, this is inefficient. This is no way to run a business. But it’s important to understand some of these policies will not last forever. Right. These are ways that you can mitigate some of the issues and obstacles in doing business in emerging economies. Once he was able to do this and built a business model that made the cell phone affordable and accessible.

I mean, millions of people flooded into the markets. And today what we have is a continent with close to a billion mobile phone subscriptions, over 100 telecommunications companies all across the continent generating taxes of 15 to 20 billion dollars a year for African governments. So that, again, they can improve their governance, build infrastructure and so on. And that industry is now worth close to 200 billion dollars on the continent. If he waited for Africa to root out corruption and build out its infrastructure. Have a governance structure similar to, you know, richer countries. He’d still be waiting today. But it’s this beautiful evolutionary process of the role of innovation and how it helps develop society that we really want to share in the work we do.

William Norvell: Efosa, William here. Thank you for going into that. I might get to the book. Next, I want to ask one question, though, while you’re going down this path of corruption. So it sounds like they put a very tolerant policy. But as a Christ follower, I remember a conversation business go around this. And I was all high and mighty saying how great I was and how morally superior I was to people. And one of my friends from the Middle East in a really winsome way said, you know, if you want to do business like that is what it is. And that’s just the way the economy works. And he said, hey, if you call it a facilitating payment, maybe you’ll sleep better at night. And he had a really, like, core thesis that, you know, this is just part of bottom line net income. And this is the way you get a building permit. And it is what it is. And to be fair, I have another experience in life where I built a building in Chicago where I noticed some line items missing. And I asked a senior executive and he said some version of the same thing is that if you’re going to build a building in Chicago, you’re gonna have a line item there. I don’t know if you want to know what’s in it or not. And he was dead serious. And so my question is, as a Christ-follower, how do you think about that? Are there places where, you know, corruption is a big word? Facilitating payments a smaller word, bribe is a bigger word, means some version of the same thing. Is that business? I mean, do you think he really and I’m not saying he didn’t build a three point four billion dollar company without ever paying anything that was not, you know, right down the middle of the fairway. And how have you seen that play out in other investments there?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know I don’t know the answer to that question. I believe him when he says, look, this is how we built this and I haven’t heard otherwise. Right. And if you’re going to build something that big. I think people would say, oh, you’re a hypocrite. Look at what you did. Look what you did. The question, though, is critical. So one of the things that I think Christ following investors. Right. Investors who just are not about I want to make as much money as I can, but really want to be a force for good and a force for God in the world. Should understand is this notion that C.S. Lewis talks about in his book where he says, Christ, little Christians all over the place should be like good infection. It’s like we should go to a place. And because of the way we are, we should infect the place as sort of like little Christ’s running around. And over time, we’ll see how that place changes. One of the best ways you can do this is through business. Now, what this means is we need to lean into places that seem overtly corrupt and figure out how to do business there. But in terms of how you navigate around it, I would recommend another book, which, by the way, everyone I am. She’s a professor out of University of Michigan. The name of the book is called China’s Gilded Age The Paradox of Economic Boom. And I think it’s vast corruption. And what she describes is this idea that not all corruption is created equal. This notion that there are really four types of corruption. Right. That’s petty theft. So the stuff that my sister was experiencing and as grand theft and embezzlement. Right. So when you hear Senator has embezzled 10 million dollars or Westminister, that’s grand theft. And then there’s. Access, money and access. Money is a lot of times and no different from, you know, what we lobbying. Right now, we might have good justification for it and say, I want to help the lawmakers write the law. I know more about the issues. But, you know, typically access money. It’s sort of, you know, lobbying. We just call it lobbying. And it’s not corruption. It’s transparent and so on. And the last one is speed. Money, right. So you want a new driver’s license. So you want something new permit or something. And then you pay money and it speed things up when you begin to categorize corruption that way. What you find is we have all seen them falling short of the glory of God. Right. And so it’s really hard for me to think of a society where there isn’t one or more forms of this corruption going on. It doesn’t condone it. And I think as Christ followers, we have to lead lives of utmost integrity and then we have to also make decisions on where we go. So Mo Ibrahim, for instance. Right. He did not set up shop in Nigeria.

I mean, most populous country in Africa that would have given him a lot of, you know, economic prosperity. Now, I don’t know why he didn’t, but my guess is he tried and he’s like, I can’t play ball the way these guys want me to play ball. And so he didn’t set up shop there, set up shop in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Uganda, much smaller economies still did really well. And so I think as a Christ follower, we will be convicted in one way or another and we will have to make decisions on where we go, how we invest. But sort of the high level broad. Oh, I can’t go here because there’s corruption and I’m a Christian. I’m not even gonna lean into it. I don’t think that’s the way we should think about it.

William Norvell: Oh, it’s fantastic. Thank you for taking us down the detour. I love that for framework of kind of thinking through it. And I think that’s super helpful. OK. We’re gonna shift back to this ownership back of the book Prosperity Paradox. We talked about a little bit. I want to give you a chance. Give us the core thesis of the book and what you’re really trying to draw out and writing it.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. Quick, quick story on that. In 2008, I read a book about poverty and economic development. The author of the book, William Easterly a professor out of NYU. He dedicated the book to a 10 year old Ethiopian girl who had to wake up every morning at three a.m., fetch firewood, walk miles and sell so she could take care of a family. Right. I’m in my room. February Wisconsin crying. I’m crying uncontrollably. I’m not really a big crier, but I couldn’t help myself because I thought there are hundreds of millions of people, young children in the world that are struggling like this. And I could not connect, sort of reconcile my faith, the story I was reading and how I was lead in my life. I remember earlier I talked about I embrace the American dream wholeheartedly and I just wanted a lot of nice things. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I think I was just really convicted. And that year I started going back home to Nigeria every year to do some poverty alleviation work. Now, in the process, I started an organization called Poverty Stops Here. We built a bunch of wells in different communities and virtually all the wells broke down and hit me that something is wrong with this process. Right? Because what we did was we looked at poverty as a lack of resource problem. And the solution, therefore, is you provide the resource. You go to a community, you don’t have water, schools, wells, hospitals, you provide the resource and you fix the problem. Unfortunately, that way of solving the problem is not sustainable. So that’s a big lesson that I learned. And that’s the paradigm shift we want to happen for people that read the book. The core thesis is you don’t fix poverty by trying to fix poverty. Instead, you fix poverty by trying to create prosperity. Right. And when you try to create prosperity, you realize that you can’t do it without focusing on entrepreneurship, innovation, and more specifically, what we describe as market creating innovations. And these are innovations like the one more Ibraheem built where you make a product that’s really expensive, complicated, you make it simple and affordable. So many more people can afford it. And when you do that, what ultimately happens is you generate a lot of wealth. So Mo Ibrahim and a lot of wealth, you create a lot of jobs that can help people earn much more income. You generate tax revenues, like I described earlier, about the mobile telecommunications industry and the tax revenues that they’re now generating. And perhaps the most important thing is you begin to foster a culture of innovation and entrepreneurship so other people see this new market you’re creating. They want to take part in it. Investors come in, entrepreneur. Nurse come in and you begin to innovate and develop newer and newer products. And that’s what we realized and that’s the core thesis in the book. The more market creating innovations we develop, the more societies can prosper.

William Norvell: Efosa, we’ve talked a little bit and I think this is common. You end up talking a little bit, unfortunately, when you talk about an investing in Africa, some of the negative connotations that come along with it. But obviously, there are just incredible assets that are unique and only to Africa. And even that Sennett’s I’m one of those people that, you know, when you say Africa, I can’t even name all the countries. Right. And I know they’re there. But in my mind, it’s like one big place and I can’t get out of it just to confess that and ask for forgiveness that I have not done my research. But so tell me and our listeners a little more about the uniqueness of investing in that continent.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. So, I mean, I could talk for an hour. I will focus on three things here. Number one, it’s the youngest continent. And when we talk about that in economic development talk, we talk about this idea of a demographic dividend. Right. It’s essentially when the people working outnumber people in retirement. And so this a nation or a region has this demographic dividend. Many other parts of the world are growing much older. Africa is very young and the median age is about 18 or 19 years old. Now, what that does or what that means is if an investor can create a market on the continent, you’re going to have customers for a very, very long time. Right. So that’s one thing that’s unique to the continent. The second thing is, at this stage, the continent, not only is it young, but it’s very susceptible to technology. Right. So when you look at the proliferation of technology on the continent, what you find is the continent can actually leapfrog a lot of traditional technologies. And so just look at the way mobile telephony spread all across the continent. Internet and data is next. And that also is going to spread. And so begin to think about new business models and how to attract this growing customer base. So that’s the second thing. The third, which is often seen as a negative, is actually a positive. It’s this idea that there is vast nonconsumption on the continent. And, you know, we define nonconsumption in our book, in our writing. It’s essentially when a vast majority of people in a region cannot access a product or service that would benefit them. And so when you look at Africa, just vast nonconsumption of many of the most basic things. I mean, from housing to even food to health care to education. It’s just vast right now. You can look at that and say that there’s no opportunity there. These folks are too poor. If Mo Ibrahim did that 22 years ago, he wouldn’t have created this vast market. But when you look at nonconsumption and say, oh, my gosh, if I go into this market, to this region, create a market, I will not have a lot of competition because right now people are not consuming. You can actually turn that around and see there’s a ton of opportunity. I think the challenge is many entrepreneurs and investors look at Africa and compare it to wealthier countries. From the governance side and even from the market side, you see the continent is in what I call the market creation phase, which means when you go to Africa to create a new market, we’ll stick with Mo Ibrahim example. He talked about how if you wanted to do a mobile telecommunications company in London or the U.S., he would have just signed papers in a conference room.

And the deal would have been done on the continent in the several countries he started. He had to build the cell towers here to educate a workforce. He had to build some clinics in some communities where his workers would live. He had to engage in community development projects. That’s not an anomaly in the market creation phase as long as an investor knows. These are the things that have to do. Then the returns that are waiting for them are going to be significant. When we look at what Henry Ford did when he was building the US, when we look at what Kodak did, Eastman Kodak, you go to Rochester, New York and see all the stuff that’s there named after him. Amadio, Giannini, Bank of America. We see similar activities. Right. And so what we really want to share with investors is this is not an anomaly when you have to build some of these things. But if you do it in a theory driven way, in a predictable way, you can actually reap a lot of rewards and help communities develop.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m fascinated by this concept to nonconsumption. I get the sense and maybe it’s accurate, maybe it’s not, that there are opportunities that are akin to what we saw in the United States, maybe back at the turn of. Last century, when Vanderbilt and Rockefeller and Stanford and all these people were going ahead and investing in places that things didn’t exist and they were able to shape culture, create culture by investing in the marketplace in profound ways. And I think that what strikes me is I listened to you talk is that there are similar opportunities here. What a compelling not only is there a market to be developed, but as you said, as a young content, you know, average age 18, 19 years. You’ve got consumers for life. That’s really profound. I’m also influenced and impacted by the fact that turning back again to go back in history about how committed Christ followers developed schools and hospitals that are all throughout Africa. And had that very focused in terms of bringing Christ and the gospel to an entire continent. They did that by investing early when other people wouldn’t have done that might take away from this is that there’s a sense for us to do that again and that we can invest in culture, in the marketplace in a way that points to God. And maybe it’s going to be easier to influence an economy for God than it might be for a more developed nation when things are more entrenched. I’d love for you to riff on that. Am I going down the right path on that? Is this that opportunity for us to go in instead of the schools and hospitals as we did one hundred years ago? Now’s the time for us to invest in a marketplace.

Efosa Ojomo: I mean, I think so. I mean, when you think about what work means for a lot of people, I know Tim Keller was on this show. I did a talk. And, you know, his book, Every Good Endeavor, talks about the importance of work in the life of a Christ-follower. When you think about the importance of work, just the average person, Crossville or not, we spend a majority of our waking life at work. So when you talk about influence, how do you influence a society? What better way to influence a society for good and for God than figuring out ways to create businesses and organizations where you have integrity, honesty, truth, goodness as core principles and core values? What better way to do that, especially when that organization is in a system where that’s really not the norm? Right. And so, in a way, I see it as a huge opportunity if more faith driven investors go to Africa, invest in a certain way. Right. We have to figure out how to shape culture, not the other way around, but invest in a certain way. I think that’s going to give us so much more bang for our buck than maybe going into a poor community, you know, donating a school or some T-shirts. I mean, I think investing is what we should be thinking more about.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. I want to be careful that you don’t harsh on T-shirts. That’s how I get my entrepreneurial start selling T-shirts.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, I heard that podcast, too. And that’s why I talked about T-shirts, because I know I’m kidding. I did.

Henry Kaestner: I love the fact you pander to your host. Thank you for that. I love you for it. It’s awesome. Okay. So if you’re a listener out there, this is where we’re going to do a little bit of crowd participation. We at faith driven investor in Faith Driven Entrepreneur had been super encouraged by the development of two different things. And I want to ask you first, if he knows of other things, we might be missing out. But one is this focus on investing in the ecosystem of Faith Driven Entrepreneur ownership. And I think about organizations like Hope International. I think about a Gorai in Snapp’s and TBN and others that are creating this kind of following Christ driven enterprise in the marketplace by doing training and many MBA A’s in matching up mentors with entrepreneurs, et cetera. So there’s a philanthropic opportunity that’s there. And yet, as investors, there are also a whole bunch of new funds to develop over the last 12 or 15 months that we’re tracking. I think about Sard and Tree of Life in South Africa and talent in and Sierra v.C and NovaStar. Can you go kinfolk in others? And I’m just really encouraged by the advent of professional management, both on their capacity building side, but then also in the fund management side, because otherwise it’s hard for the average listener to say, what do I get started? I mean, do I go online and just kind of go on Angeles or we fund? But there’s some other ways, and I’m loving the way that the market for faith driven investor is developing. Anything I’m missing there?

Efosa Ojomo: No, I mean, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s one of the things that we have to begin thinking about, creating a better infrastructure that enables people who get this message and want to get involved to be able to get involved. There’s a fund called Future Africa, a young Christ follower who is figuring out ways to get people to essentially crowd fund investments. That’s why he calls it golden palm. Investment is another one. Good friend of mine went to Harvard Law School Business School, and he’s investing in key sectors in the economy, health care, technology, Verrat, Capital Management and other HBF alarm seem to be biased to the HBF alarms reason?

William Norvell: No, not at all. I don’t hear that at all.

Efosa Ojomo: Yes, health capital is another one focused on agriculture, really figuring out how Africa can become a breadbasket for the world. And so what’s interesting is you don’t have to go too far to find faith driven investors on the continent. Everybody I’ve mentioned is a faith driven investor, which to me was fascinating because I thought, oh, who’s doing this in Africa? Not necessarily who’s a Christian doing this in Africa? And I was like, oh, wow. Faith, faith, faith, faith, faith, you know.

Henry Kaestner: So I tell you, though, you know, HBS definitely has it up on the Stanford Graduate School of Business. William, how do you respond?

William Norvell: No comment.

Henry Kaestner: All right. Well, thank you for not shifting it back to how the University of Delaware alumni base is doing in investing and faith driven opportunities in Africa. And that’s the crowd participation part. As you hear, as you, the listener, understand new players that are in the capacity building space or in the investment space. Share it with us. Superimportant that we as a community can understand more ways that we can get involved in Africa. William brings to close, please.

William Norvell: Yeah, I will. And the only thing I’ll say before that is as you were listing of names and if you listen to this podcast you may hear me say this a bunch of my favorite quotes, but African investing in Africa just totally reminds me of that famous Bill Gates quote that most people overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what they can do in 10. And when you list all those names, my mind just went to this like, what is this conversation going to be in 10 years? It’s going to be so much more. And it’s hard to see that and to start investing in those people now. For our audience to start learning now to listen to those names, obviously email us if you want to learn more. We’re not hard to find. I just had this vision of this conversation in 10 years. And you say. And who knew? Well, it could have happened when we actually had this conversation. And only God knows. Right. And my other favorite quote I’ve heard from God is, you know, now tell you what I was up to, but you wouldn’t believe me even if I told you. And that’s our God if we are faithful and walk with him. And on that note, we are running close to time. So we love to figure out where our guests are in God’s word and where he may be pushing them. So if you have a moment, maybe just share with us where you might be, where he might be taking you today or the season. And let our audience into your life and your walk with God’s word.

Henry Kaestner: And I’ll interject here for folks who need time and think I love the fact he’s got this chalkboard behind him and he’s got the great quote from Jeremiah, 29, that’s up there. It’s written down. That’s true. I don’t know if that was in preparation for today’s call. I don’t know if his next calls with the World Bank. Tell us about that.

Efosa Ojomo: Well, that’s just called my wife and I have up here to encourage us. You know, any Christ follower will tell you the journey is not linear. It’s not straightforward. And so we need reminders that we are on God’s team. He is here for us. He loves us. And that’s just one of the ways we remind ourselves that he has good plans for us, plans for welfare and not for evil. And so, anyways, I think, you know, to your question, William, where my wife and I are now in our faith, we just celebrated our one year anniversary. Is this Matthew six, 33 to 34. Those two verses. Right. You first. A Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. And then the verse 34 says, therefore, do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow, worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. It’s just this idea of putting God first. It sounds really simple, but we’ve been asking ourselves, what does it mean to put God first? To be proactive about our faith, to anchor our lives on our faith. And then everything else flows from there.

And so every year we’ve decided now that we would figure out an issue that we know God cares about and we would lean into that issue, that issue of injustice. That issue of poverty, whatever the issue is, would lean into that issue. And then whatever extra time we have, whatever extra money, whatever extra whatever goes to everything else. But first God issue and then everything else. And so that’s where we are right now. And we’re we’re pretty excited about that.

Henry Kaestner: It should be. That’s awesome. We are, too. Thank you very much for your life’s work. Thank you for your time. And just excited about our partnership and your faithfulness and where God’s got you.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you. Thank you.

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Today, we’re talking coffee, co-working, and Chick-fil-a cows. That’s right. 

You’ve heard a lot about the ups and downs of WeWork, but now we’re going to look at a panel of faith-driven experts who are leading the way in co-working and how it can provide economically and spiritually for those participating in it. 

Tune in to hear Trevor Hightower, Peyton Day, and David Salyers share their stories and what the intersection of their Christian faith and co-working looks like.

Useful Links:

Craftwork Coffee and Co-Working

The Roam Story

People Provide the Ultimate Competitive Framework

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

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Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the failure of an investor podcast. I’m here with William. William, good morning.

William Norvell: Good morning.

And we’ve got a special edition today. We’ve got three guests on to help us unpack what I think is a super important topic with regards to faith driven investments with real estate in particular coworking. So today we’ve got Trevor Hightower, Peyton Day and David Salyers on the show. So glad to have you all with us. Thank you. What we want to do is at the beginning, we want to give you each a chance to share your story, provide some background, and then women can ask the questions that we want to get everybody’s input on as we explore this idea of getting out there and investing in coworking on the for profit side. What makes it a great investment and then what makes it a great ministry opportunity is people come in as they form their businesses, get together, have meetings, have fellowship and community. So, Trevor, I want to start off with you at the beginning. Tell us about your personal journey and then tell us about what craft coffee is in your strategy.

Trevor Hightower: Well, thank you. Henry and William would love to. Let me first say I’m a regular listener of the three faith driven podcast. So much so that my daughter Grace asked me what Bible verse I would be sharing today at the end of this podcast.

Henry Kaestner: That is awesome. That is my love language. Thank you for listening.

Trevor Hightower: Maybe that’s not a good thing because that means I’m listening to podcasts instead of being present with her. So it could be more there. But I am deeply indebted to the great work that you guys are doing and listen to your guests and want to emulate their lives. And as I’ll try to share in my story. It was ideas and content like yours that God used to help shape the redemptive vision for my work. So thank you for your great work. So Jesus rescued me when I was 27 on a wood trip trail in Hermosa Beach, and I had transitioned from being an Air Force officer to working in commercial real estate. So the gospel of grace completely reordered my loves and desires. And I grew up knowing Jesus. So I thought this meant I needed to go into ministry. And thankfully, I had a mentor who graciously said to me he was actually in the ministries that God has agents of reconciliation and restoration in every domain in society. And Trevor, he might have you and real estate for a reason. And I remember thinking to myself, I have no idea what he just said, but that is awesome. Whatever he said. I am all in for a lot of the framework, the rhythm, the framework really helped birth in me, a passion for the reality that there’s no sacred secular divide. And so I was fortunate that my career in real estate started during the Great Recession, which allowed me the opportunity to be gritty and find places to add value and grow. And I worked for a publicly-traded in the office space and then worked for CBRE in leadership as a managing director in the Houston office about the time I was working for CBRE in Houston.

A mutual friend of ours, Dave Blanchard from Praxis, gave a talk that I listened to where he said something to the effect of, you know, if every entrepreneur. But I inserted to real estate developer could see a trend line and get in front of that trend line and create market value. How much more of a responsibility and advantage do we have as Christ followers that know that the ultimate trend line is heading towards new heavens? And they were? How much more of a opportunity do we have to get in front of that trend line and whatever? Now, in my case, real estate. And so that was in 2016 and I was already starting to see a major shift in how our corporate users were utilizing their space. The trend lines of shorter lease terms and more flexibility. The growing gig economy had already convinced me that shared office space coworking, that would be a huge part of the future of the office asset class.

But what really excited me about the operators I saw that really did it well and differentiated their offering was their emphasis on connection and community. And so with Dave’s prompting in the Lawrence prompting, I created a coworking space that the vision of it was to create that higher vision of connection and community. Accidentally, it happened to be in a multi-family building. So we reimagined the front entrance way of a multi-family lobby in an amenity area and found out that those uses really traded a lot of synergies when they worked together, especially if you’re operating it with intention to create connection and community. I met my now partner, Riley, who is had another great concept of a specialty coffee and coworking space combined, and saw really great synergies there. And we met in a really God ordained way and decided to. Merge those concepts together, where especially coffee and coworking, that would go into multi-family building and reimagine amenity spaces and lobby areas to really bring connection community in those multi-family buildings. So that is craftwork and what we get to work on today.

Henry Kaestner: So more revenue throughput in underutilized space, bringing in some community fellowship, adding some value to the property owners as they provide another amenity and some great business in ministry correspondence. OK. That’s awesome. Craftwork. David, I want to move over to you, David. You’ve got a great background, a very interesting background, one that some people can have some familiarity with. What am I talking about? And what’s your background?

David Salyers: Well, interestingly, Henry, my career started four hours after college graduation. I graduated on a Saturday morning. I started at a little company called Chick-fil-a four hours later. I had met Truett Cathy during my college career when I was a junior in college, and we’d kind of both pursued it. But what was fascinating is Chick fil A was not a startup at the time, but it was close. The headquarters was in a converted airfreight warehouse and they had run out of room in the warehouse. So they cut a hole through the wall, pulled up a mobile home. And my first office was in a mobile home attached to that warehouse. And I had no idea what I just signed up for, but it turned out to be much greater than anything I could have imagined. I think true could have imagined then kind of being a chicken salesman. Now for most of my life. But here’s the main thing I want to tell you as a 21 year old kid. If you had asked me what would be the most remarkable career possible, I would have told you get out of school, make as much money as I could, as fast as I could, and retire as early as I could. That’s kind of the paradigm that I had. I thought life couldn’t get better than that.

Instead, go to work for Chick fil A and Truett Cathy. I found something a hundred times better than that, something I could not have imagined as a 21 year old kid even exist. In fact, some I wouldn’t believe existed had I not seen it play out before my very eyes and really role model by Truett and the Chick-fil-a organization. Instead of finding the job, I could retire from early. I found the job I wouldn’t want to retire from, and that thought had never crossed my mind that there could be a job you wouldn’t want to retire from because my whole world is a 21 year old was all around money and true, its whole world was around mission. And if you find a job that’s in alignment with a mission, it is the job you wouldn’t want to retire from. And, you know, it’s fascinating. I remember going into true its office when he was in his late 80s. Say true it man, your four one K fully funded. What are you still doing here? He would tell me why would I stop doing something I love this much. He said, if you love what you do, you’ll never work another day in your life. And so kind of a message for me when you go back to the Bible and you ask, where does God first mention the word work? You know where it is. Oh, where Genesis one, where God had everything exactly the way he wanted it work was part of that equation. When life was paradise, work was part of that equation. So what that tells me is that work, ideally, if done right, is designed to be a source of satisfaction, fulfillment, enjoyment, contentment. All of that is the way work should be. But for most people, that’s not the experience that they’re having.

Henry Kaestner: So along the way, you talk about mission. I want to get back to this where you find a mission and purpose in it because you’re bringing into the present day. But less we go over some Chiclet story. Part of your mission is to save the lives of millions of cows. Tell us what that means.

That certainly got added along the way. Well, we want people to eat more chicken. Save those lives. But you’re right. I mean, in a sense, it’s kind of a comical look at what Chick-fil-a is all about. In fact, the corporate purpose of Chick fil A is to glorify God by being a faithful steward of all that’s entrusted to us. And a positive influence on all who come in contact with Chick fil A. Notice, it mentions nothing about chicken. It mentions nothing. It’s being a faithful steward and a positive influence. And that’s the way that we’re going to glorify God through work and by doing work that way. What we’ve done is created jobs that people don’t want to retire from, jobs that are fulfilling, rewarding, exciting, engaging. In fact, if you can believe this, in an industry known for turnover, we’ve got a 97 percent retention rate at Chick fil A, 97 percent retention rate for the corporate staff and for our Chick fil A operators, the independent contractors that run each location, 97 percent retention rate.

David Salyers: David, tell us about how you think about real estate. How do you think about faith driven investments and what you’re doing right now?

Yes, so let me segue from a Chick fil A background, I took early retirement from Chick fil A two years ago. And the main reason I did that is I feel like to those whom much is given, much is required. And the easy thing for me to do would have been to stay at chick fillet, enjoy all the rewards of a long career there and all the fruits that are now being enjoyed by that corporation. But I felt like because so much of being given to me, what’s required of me is to go out and help recreate the things that I was able to enjoy at Chick fil A. And so what we’re doing at Rome, which is Peyton and I’s concept here, we’re trying to recreate the environment of chick fillet, but make it available to entrepreneurs, to major corporations, to nonprofits, etc.. And so Rome is a coworking facility built on culture, built on hospitality, built on all the principles that I saw make Chick fil A what it was. And what we want to do is create, first of all, for our own employees that kind of job opportunities that I enjoyed it chick fillet. But more importantly, we want a role model to all those who come here, what that looks like. And we think it’s contagious. We think people see what Chick fil A has to offer. I notice when people come on tours when people would partner with and say, wow, this is so amazing, I want to go recreate it. So what Rome is all about for me is recreating and helping others recreate the incredible culture and the incredible results that I was able to enjoy for so many years at Chick fil A. But making those more publicly available, because right now, as great as Chick fil A is, there’s a limit to the number of people who can be employed by Chick fil A. So how can we take that and scale it? So for us, for me and I want to speak for Peyton, but for me, what Roehm is, is an exercise in scaling culture, hospitality and creating a world where we reinvent. In fact, our mission at Rome is to renew and inspire the way the world does business as partners in the story of accomplished dreams. So we want to use Rome as a platform to renew and inspire the way the world does business, i.e. what I got to experience the job I wouldn’t want to retire from instead of the job. I can’t wait to retire. How do we create a culture and an atmosphere where that is common, that you’ve got people that love what they do and so they never work another day in their life? And then how do we partner with others to help them do that? So we want to create that for ourselves and we want to partner with others. And we do it for everything from individual entrepreneurs to growing organizations to non-profits to even major corporations that use us as an offsite facility for meetings, et cetera. But our goal is to use the real estate as a platform to do something far more important than the real estate. It’s not about chairs and tables and meeting spaces. It’s about culture and renewing and inspiring. The way people think about work and the way they execute work and the way they try and use work is an opportunity not to extract value from others, but create value for others.

Henry Kaestner: Peyton, I want to move back over to you as David talks about roam and its mission as suspected. Listening to this podcast understands the impact and the importance that David sees in being able to articulate your mission and be able to reflect back on it and come back and make sure that all of your initiatives flow from that. I think that must come from some of the Chick fil A legacy that you’ve got. Peyton, you come from a family that’s focused on hospitality. Tell us about that and tell us about the idea for the formation of Roam.

Peyton Day: Well, thank you, Henry. And my story is different than David’s and my first job out of college. Honestly, I was working for a leader I didn’t believe in. In a culture, I really didn’t want to be a part of pursuing a cause and I could care nothing about. And needless to say, I wasn’t successful in that culture because in my life I had seen a father. My dad was my mentor, Cecil Day, and he developed a hotel chain. And of course, Chick Fillet was also just true. Kathy and the influence he had a chick fillet was certainly someone I wanted to emulate my life, a young Asian. As it turns out, my father and Kathy were good friends. You know, it’s never been stuck with homes back in the late 50s. And so it’s just an interesting twist to see God’s hand and how David now we bought each other.

But nonetheless, I was part of this what I’ll call a toxic culture. And I saw that there was a better way because I’d seen this from my dad at a young age. And people like to Kathy. My father was all about integrating faith and work.

And he did that in his own way. One way he did that was for every hotel guest that stayed in our hotels, for every single location. We had a chaplain on call. This is back in the early 70s for all 200 locations. You know, David. The United States. And so what was interesting to me. This is a nine year old boy just watching that and saying that’s really neat to see that he’s having a positive influence on guests that are staying in a hotel that really spoke to me. Because when you think about it. Hotels are a place where a lot of people go to contemplate suicide or divorce or lots of other things that are not good. And yet he used that as an opportunity to reach out to people in the most desperate of times. And so I saw that modeled at a young age, and it was attracted to me as a young person coming along. I said to myself all or be like my dad one day and do more than be like people like Truett Cathy of Chick fil A.

And so for us at Roam, when we came across from David and I did not come up with the original idea for Roa,. These were for IBM ers that were sent home because these big companies were trying to save on the cost of fixed office space. So they were IBM was ever sent home to work. And when they went home, they found it difficult to get work done because the baby’s crying. The U.P.S. man is ringing the doorbell. The blower’s for the landscaping is loud outside all types of distractions. And so these guys said there must be a better way. So instead of working from the home, they started going to coffee shops. And this is back in 2008. And so it was from there, they tried to go to coffee shops. And we all know that Starbucks or coffee shops can be a difficult place to have a meeting. So they said there must be a better way. So their original concept was a coffee bar with meeting rooms around a small meeting rooms. And so and Dave and I got involved in 2010. I knew I was interested. My background was with Marriott. I had the opportunity develop Marriott Hilton Hotels. And I knew that this was a very interesting platform for impact because first of all, it had all my passions, real estate, hospitality, entrepreneurship and non-profits ability to get back.

And I walked in and just basically cold call. These guys got so intrigued by it that they invited me to do some hospitality consulting. And as fate would have, it is God’s providence would have it. David walked in nine months later and he fell in love with it. And we were able to be in a position to body ownership. Then from there, we started expanding the footprint to offices to meeting space, to catering and larger meetings and so forth. And so that’s how we got involved. That’s why we got involved. It is a very unique platform for impact, because whether you’re Republican or Democrat, it really doesn’t matter where you are on the political spectrum. What I love about wrong is it’s good for the ozone. It’s good for controlling emissions. You’re creating jobs. You can do a lot of good things. And as Gaited said, our vision is to renew. It’s part of the world, does business as partners and the story of others dreams. Well, everyone that walks in a room has a green. As a nonprofit, as an entrepreneur, as a large company, and it’s our goal, the role that we play is we want to partner with them on that journey.

And we’re an advocate for them. We look at ourselves as an extension of their brand. And so we are servant leaders that are other people centered in order to carry out that vision. So that’s how I got involved and why we got involved. And it’s a very, very interesting platform for impact. And it was until I was forty nine years old that I was able to intersect that passion, purpose and talent. I believe when we talk about three concentric circles and the intersection of those circles, that’s the best role for us. Well, this is a very unique role for me and ideal. And so David and I, we endeavor to be leaders that others believe that I’m creating cultures that people want to be a part of pursuing a cause that people can get excited about. And I believe and I learned this from David. Businesses don’t succeed or fail. People do. I got that from David. I think David got it from Truett Cathy. And I’m pretty confident that Truett Cathy got it from God because it’s such a powerful concept that if you take care of the people, if you set them up for success, give them those are excited about your passion, about on purpose. Then you have something really, really special. And so that’s what we’re trying to do it wrong. And it’s been a real honor to be able to do this with David.

William Norvell: Amen. This is William here. Thanks so much for sharing that story and is someone who’s been to a couple of your own locations. It really is a unique experience. And a part of this podcast is really thinking uniquely about real estate and some of these assets. But another guy, John Marsh, on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast about a year ago that really talked about how to revive a community through real estate. And so I want to dig into that a little bit more. And for those that don’t have seen Rome yet, you have your traditional freestanding building, which is really interesting to walk into. And it kind of feels about like I would expect. But the one I remember most was one of your locations. Sort of in more of a shopping mall area. I don’t know how to say it. You may say it better, but the transportation that I experience walking into that, I’ll be honest, I’m a little skeptical of. Oh, man. They put one in a shopping center. That’s a little interesting. Didn’t expect that. When I type this into the Google Maps, I kind of thought it was going to be a beautiful building somewhere. But what you did with the culture and what you did with the location, once you walk and you really are transported and you forget where you are and that’s amazing. And that really took some thought and some innovation, in my opinion, to really take a step back into how could we look at a space in a different way. So we’re going to dig into that a little bit on the swing. Back over to Trever for a second. And you mentioned how you’re working with multi-family units. And I want to dig into a little bit of the spiritual integration side of things. We heard a little bit of what you’re doing and what it looks like. How do you think about integrating faith and work through that? You mentioned Dave Blanchard, a frequent guest here, who I think has inspired many to think about things a different way. How do you see it? Craftwork today?

Trevor Hightower: Well, yeah, thank you. William and I also have visited Peyton and his team in Roam and can attest to their culture and their people is what really brings the space to life. And as beautiful as design and esthetics are, it’s the way that you feel cared for by the people. And that’s one thing that we really have focus on craft work. So we’re a B to B to C company. Our B2B side is we partner with multi-family owners. So high rise, mid rise owners and the way that a typical real estate owner thinks about their multi-family development as well. We need to compete to attract a similar demographic by creating bigger, more expensive amenities. And we try to come onside them and say, you don’t want to be in the menotti’s arms race. You want to be and a connection arms race. You want to be an experienced arms race. And we really believe in this flows from our spiritual intent that you can bring to life. This what typically goes way underutilized, if utilized at all, kind of lobby and amenity area. You can bring it to life with a hospitality focused, human centered operation. And so what we essentially do is reimagine the lobby and amenity area into a specialty coffee and Corrigan’s space. But our missional intent is we have people on the front lines who are our mission is to generously see all the people and the spaces that we operate. So our team is diverse. We have many believers. We have nonbelievers who are on that front line. But all of them are really passionate about our mission to draw people out of isolation and into community. And, you know, no one does this better than Chick fil A and Rome, but we really try to emulate the best practices around training and hiring and equipping our teams so that when a coffee. Customer or a member comes into contact with a craftwork teammate. They experience something very different, which is they feel genuinely connected.

William Norvell: Absolutely. That’s great. I want to swing it back over to Peyton to talk about, you know, the special integration yours. And I’d be remiss not to mention one story has this funny image of the people. I was in one and then peyton was generous to give me a tour. And you meet some of the people and they do strike up a conversation. One of the coolest Faith Driven Entrepreneur moments that I’ve experienced. And there were then the investor podcast here. But the faith driven family was talking to the host at room, Mary London. She’s mentioned that she used to work in Kenya and some other places. And at the time, Henry was actually doing a Faith Driven Entrepreneur event that night in Kenya. And I said, well, you know, randomly, we have an event that night and she e-mailed out a bunch people they were able to come. Amazing to see what God does. And I just mentioned that story to say Roam feels like that kind of place that you can just be alert to what the Holy Spirit is doing at any moment. Some craft workers as well just it’s an amazing opportunity place for the spirit to work. And so I’d love for you to probably tell more stories than I campaign about how you go about that and how you built that culture intentionally and how it continues to thrive today.

Peyton Day: Well, I think it goes back to the saying, you know, people don’t care what you know, they’re more concerned about how much you care, make you care less about what you know. And I think for us, you know, we do our best to hire, again, people who love serving other people and who take great joy in that. And that starts with leadership in ensuring that we’re hiring people who are committed to serving others. That’s where it starts. And then from there, we really try to point them to this vision of this bigger vision of renewing, inspiring how the world does business. And they live that out in their own way. And we give them a lot of freedom. We’re big believers in giving people autonomy to make decisions. And without autonomy comes responsibility. And we think about this ratio of autonomy divided by responsibility equals one. And that means that oftentimes I think we as leaders, we can be too heavy handed, too much of a micromanager. And so for us, we try to push decisions down through all levels of the organization such that they can address those problems. And oftentimes, I think people are concerned about giving people the autonomy to make decisions. But that’s not the problem. The problem is, in some cases, they’re either not trained for how to address the problem or in other cases you may have the wrong person. So what we try to do is hire leaders again, give them the vision, give them a lot of freedom and latitude within those guardrails to make those decisions. And then we turn them loose to do what they do and use their destinies to do that. And so day in and day out, that’s what happens at Ron. So stories like you just shared with you. You know, David, I had the honor of hearing every day we have one lady whose mother was passing away. And it’s just a heartwarming story. It’s actually on our website. But somehow that same Mary London that you’re talking about got wind of that and found out that her mother was dying. And she wrote the most beautiful handwritten note that to this day. This lady talks about and she just talks about how that was what she needed at that moment. So every day, you know, we have the opportunity to be a positive impact on those we come in touch with. And as I mentioned to you earlier, this is a unique platform for doing just that, because at a Chick fil A drive through, Davis mentioned this before, you had to maybe a 30 second encounter with someone at a Chick fil A drive through.

Well, in many cases, David and I and Trever have the opportunity to impact people over entire day or over an entire week, much longer extended period time. So from a ministry standpoint, we get a lot of touches with people. And because of that, we’re able to forge deeper relationships. And that’s one of the things I love about this model. It is a very unique platform for positively impacting those. We come in touch with.

William Norvell: Amen and jump back over to. David would be equally remiss not to ask you, you know, why you love cowls and dislike chickens. But that’s a conversation for another time. But we would love to know a little bit about your banking experience there. Oh, Henry?

Henry Kaestner: No, no, no, no. I’m right with you. I just want to make sure you and pass over that. I mean, it’s one of the greatest marketing campaigns of all time. We’ve got a guy guests on the show that had served at Chick-fil-a in the marketing department during the birth of the whole chicken cow thing. I want to hear about it.

William Norvell: Yes. So that’s where we’re going. That’s the end of the question. I have long lead ends, as you can tell. But Henry is better again to the point. And so we’d love to hear about that as well.

David Salyers: All right. We’ll talk about that is interesting. The first 20 years at Chick fil A was all mall locations. And we used to talk about marketing at a. All as a captive audience marketing strategy, in other words, it wasn’t our job to bring people the mall, but once they showed up, it was our job to get them to eat while we were there, and about 70 percent of molesting was impulsivity. But once we got out in what we call freestanding locations out on the street, we now had to become destination marketers. You know, in other words, we had to get some I get up off their sofa. Get in their car and drive to us. And it’s completely different situation. So as free standards started to become the largest portion of the offering that we had, we realized we had to revamp our marketing and we began a national search. And we started with one hundred and twenty agencies that we looked at and we were able to narrow it down to 20 that I personally went and visited. And from those 20 visits, we narrowed it down to three. And what you’ll appreciate about this is the three that we narrowed it down to, all three of them. We’re really good at their craft. But what we’re really looking for is a cultural fit at that point. And we felt like the cultural fit. We weren’t have a long term relationship with an agency which in and of itself is very different. Most agencies is high turnover. What have you done for me lately? It’s, you know, come in and pitch your business at your expense. And we weren’t in a completely different relationship. And where I can go into lots of details, but we did something that all three of those agencies had never seen before, which a lot of what chick fillet does is counterintuitive. It’s the opposite of the way most everyone else is doing it. So we decided to pay each of those three agencies to do a project for us so that we could simulate what it would be like to work with them. And we spent a couple of months working with each agency to get a sense of what it would be like to work with. Contrast that the way a normal agency would work is you come at your expense. And usually they’d spend six figures pitching your business and you don’t give them any information. You know, it’s almost hands off and come impress us. We said we want to do just the opposite. We want to dig in with you. We want to give you everything you need to be successful. And let’s see where it would be like to work together. And so out of all that, we ended up selecting the Richards Group out of Dallas, Texas. And the Richards Group was similar to Ticketfly. In a sense. It was a privately held business. One guy owned the whole thing and they were much more concerned about doing great work than how big a check your writing. And that’s exactly what we wanted. When I first met with Stan Richards and went out to Dallas at that time, we were at a big disadvantage because relatively speaking, we would have been like on a list of the top hundred fast food chains. At the time we signed up with the Richards Group, we would’ve been much closer to 100 than never once. We weren’t a very desirable client is basically because we’re really small. We had a really small budget. So to overcome that, we went in and we said I said, Stan, we may never be your biggest client. We want to be your best client. Tell me what that looks like. And he went on for about 20 minutes telling me what it would look like to be his best man. And you could tell he had a gleam in his eye. And that was a very attractive question for him, because it wasn’t about the size of our account. It was about the quality of the work they could do. And for a guy like Stan, almost like what Payton was talking about a minute ago, we wanted somebody who was very missional in their approach and he was very excited about doing great advertising and great work, getting great results. And it wasn’t about the size of the check that you would write. So net net is a cow campaign was not the original campaign they came up with. It was several iterations later that they came up and actually was a combination of three different billboard ideas that they had done. And that was another thing all of our competitors were doing. Lots of television advertising, radio advertising. We said, let’s pick a medium that we could dominate that no one else is using. And the one medium that no one else was using really in the fast food business at the time was billboards. They would use them as directional as what we’d call, you know, next exit go. Right. But no one was using as a brand building opportunity. And we got inspired by billboards we saw out in L.A., in Orlando, these 3D billboards. So we basically told Stan we want to do a 3-D billboard campaign as a brand building campaign. And that intrigued him because his background was graphic arts. And so this was a graphic art opportunity. Long story short, they did a number of billboards, three different billboards, kind of came in to focus. If you want to do another, I could actually bring and show you the three billboards. But pieces of those other three billboards kind of came together in the mind of one of their creatives, a guy named David Ring, and they came up with the eat more chicken idea and we were thrilled with it. But the problem was it was totally off strategy. It was a great idea. That didn’t align with the strategy that we had. And we said, well, you know what? Sometimes if the idea is big enough, you got to throw out the strategy. So we tried it and we tried it in Atlanta, Georgia, right before the Olympics because we were looking for a great billboard because the world was coming to Atlanta and that one billboard was between the Atlanta airport and downtown. Got more recall than all the other billboards we had done put together to that tab in the research that we did afterwards. So I think the big aha moment was going from a billboard to a campaign idea. And that was the big leap, was how do we take it from a billboard and take it into the stores and make it a long term campaign. And they came up with some great ideas and we worked together. But it’s really a story of culture and teamwork and not focusing on the size of the check, but focusing on the size, the opportunity and what stand would tell you. To this day, if we were to get him on the podcast here, he would say, you know what? Chick fil A’s to this day is not my biggest client, but he’s a billion dollar ad agency now world’s biggest privately held ad agency. He said Chiclet to this day and write me the biggest check. But he said, almost every client I’ve gotten since the Cal campaign has come as a result of the Cal campaign. So you were their best customer? Yeah. Exactly. All these other customers, he said the first thing they want to know when they said our stand is tell me about the Cal campaign and create a cow campaign for us. So even though we were saying that the work led to him getting all the other checks, you know, and a lot of ways since that time.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I’ll tell you, it’s another billboard that really got me hooked on Chick fil A. And it wasn’t the more chicken. It was a billboard that McDonald’s had up in Durham, North Carolina, when it just said open Sundays. I thought, oh, my goodness. How did they do that? And so I have not eaten in a McDonald’s since. And I love chick flick. OK, so if people tune in in this podcast right now. No, we’re not talking about retail marketing. We’re talking about faith driven investments. And so I want to talk, of course, about the big elephant in the room, and that is that you all have found yourselves in an industry that has been probably a little bit more higher profile over the course of last nine or 12 months with the challenges that we work has experienced. We’ve got an audience of investors. Can you make money in coworking? Trevor, we’ll start with you.

Trevor Hightower: That’s an easy question. Thanks, Henry. So what we see with Covid 19 these past 10 weeks is a lot of the trend lines that we were following are massively accelerated. So you can look at remote work, for instance, remote work was already a trend line that was heading in a certain direction. And then we had a mass adoption overnight of remote work. And so I think at least for us at craftwork, what becomes important to the model is something that other Kirchen operators have adopted as well. It’s more of a management agreement, partnership model where you are sharing and the upside and also sharing and the downside. The least model is difficult when you encounter a little bit more of a challenging market like we’ve been in. But I think one pivot that we’ve really focused on as a service provider to come alongside our multi-family partners is to create more of an agile, less capital intensive model that essentially craftwork can go into the existing lobby and replace a lobby with a hospitality experience and then operate the existing amenity space as a corrick in space. And what this does for the owner is it allows them to differentiate their building in a increasingly competitive environment through creating a layer of service that’s focused on connection and community and hospitality. And so we think in the new normal post-covid home is going to become increasingly important as some level of remote work is going to increase for all workers. And where people work is going to be important so that amenity space within their multifamily building does become important. It’s not highly utilized now, but if it was really curated and really layered with service, with the type of hospitality that’s groups like Rhome or Rappard could provide, then I think it becomes very differentiated, differentiates one asset to another. But I think the key is that partnership approach with the landlord.

Henry Kaestner: Got it. David Payton talked to us about roam. Talk to us about your model. Tell us about where you’ve been in terms of capitalizing what you’re doing and what your prospects are, what you see as you think about expanding. Can an investor that might invest in a room or a craft worker that has a co-working idea, can they not only see that as a great opportunity, provide amenities and fellowship and community where ministry can happen, but can they make money and invest in it as well?

David Salyers: Peyton, why don’t you start and I’ll finish?

Peyton Day: Well, first of all, I would agree with Trevor said the answer. Yes, I do believe remote work is going to be accelerated for all the reasons that Trevor mentioned. I would also add that at some point we sincerely believe that meetings will come back. They may look a little different in my mind. If you believe that the Masters is coming back or NBA basketball or the NFL, you have to believe that meetings also will come back. They may be smaller. People may need to social distance more. Without a doubt, people may need more elbow room. Certainly, cleanliness has become a much bigger issue. And so for us, our model is based on diverse constraints. And that’s what’s so interesting about this. Even when you think you’re bulletproof, you’re not right. You think you’ve got it all figured out.

We’ve got all these revenue streams. And then, wham! Here comes covid 19. And so the next opportunity, virtual platforms, member services. We’ve got to find ways to create value for our membership. And by definition, value is what you get over what you pay. So every day we wake up thinking, what can we do to add more, more value to the membership? Even on a post covid environment. Now, I believe that a vaccine changes a lot. But I do believe while the last 10 years we’ve seen densification in real estate think we work one personally, 50 square feet. The office that I wanted to be a part of when I was growing up was a 200 square foot glass office. That’s what we wanted. But the last 10 years, we’ve without a doubt moved to densification, more people and smaller places. I don’t think there’s any question that we’re gonna have a period of detoxification. The question is, how long will I go? I think the vaccine will change a lot. Getting kids back to school are going to change a lot. But ultimately, I believe that this model is what people are looking for. As Trevor mentioned earlier, it’s flexibility. It’s giving people the ability to work from home, giving people options of different work environments in which they want to be productive outside of their home or a traditional office. People want to create. They want to collaborate. People need to be together. And we believe that the coworking platform is certainly an answer. And it’s on friends. And we don’t think it’s going away.

David Salyers: And what I would add to that, Henry, is prior to the Corona virus, all of our locations were profitable, several highly profitable. Obviously, during the Corona virus, we’ve had to shut down certain revenue. The meetings, part of it, that kind of thing. But I do feel like the new trends coming out of it. Trevor, I would totally agree with you. I think what this is doing is making everyone rethink the way they do business and the way they have approached business historically. So I think it can be an accelerant for coworking in that I think we could be much more on trend with what people want. I think they don’t necessarily want to have to go to an officer today, but they also don’t want to have to work from home every day. I think we’re a nice in between. And I do think historically, a lot of businesses have thought in terms of centralization of the workforce. Everyone comes to one office to work out of one place. And now we’ve experienced massive decentralization. And there are certain things people really like about that decentralization of office. But I think now they’re going to desire more of that. But I don’t think they want total decentralization. I don’t think they want total centralization. I think what a lot of people are going to want coming out of this is some combination of the two. And I think that’s where the opportunity is. Anytime you have a major world event like this, it kind of takes everyone back to zero. And the scrappy entrepreneurs are the ones that succeed. And we’ve got a whole team full of scrappy entrepreneurs and they’re already coming up with new ideas to Payton’s point about how do we create value, add new ways for people. Yeah. So I’m cautiously optimistic that we’ve got a lot of exciting things in the future and certainly ripe for cover. To answer your original question, can it be profitable? 100 percent of our locations were before growing matters.

Trevor Hightower: Yeah, I’ll just add to what I hear David and Payton saying is that the benefit that coworking industry has relative to traditional office space is a maniacal focus on the end user. It really is what Payton was saying, this combination of hospitality and office space. And so what I just heard Payton and David describe is the ability of a good coworking operator to really Kivett is to the end user to attract what we anticipate. Being a larger supply is a benefit relative to a traditional office user. Really, they’re going to probably have a challenging time in a recessionary environment with a little bit less demand for traditional office space. So the key is to really focus on end user experience. And I think that what we all really on this call is that it’s not mutually exclusive, that end user experience and really creating something that is spiritually beneficial for people, which is training places of connection and community.

William Norvell: That’s really good. That’s interesting. I’m fascinated to watch how this industry shakes out. I mean, I agree with everything you guys have said. I also think there’s going to be new customers, as you mentioned. There’s going to be more work from home. There’s going to be a reimagining at some level, maybe not for every company, but for many companies. I would imagine what work looks like and what teams look like and what office spaces look like. And I could see coworking. Being a big part of the solution there, it’s probably easier would be my guess to set up a social distancing policy when you have disparate companies in a space already, you know, and you can kind of set up offices and things like that. And that’s really fascinating to watch. And I thank you guys for walking us through that time and for sharing with us, because it’s really going to be a hot topic. I think just the future of work in general is a hot topic right now. And I think many of us also believe or my wife’s in medicine, you know, coronaviruses is something that will likely happen in some way, shape or form again. Peyton, you mentioned cleanliness and and all the things. It really is a future defining event, in my opinion. And I think coworking has a great place to play in the middle of that. And so as we do turn to an end here, Trevor, you already foreshadowed the event here, so you’d better be ready. It’s coming to you first. We would love to know. We always love just seeing how God bridges our listeners and our guests and how his word is always continually alive. And we would just love to know where God has you. Today could be this morning, something you read on the way to wherever you may be working from could be a passage or story that God has had you in for a season of today or years, even sometimes our guests have said they’ve been meditating on something for a long time. So if you would bring our our listeners into your world a little bit, they’d be great. And then we’ll go to David and Peyton.

Trevor Hightower: Thank you, William. Yeah. I am fortunate that I had my daughter Grace prompt me, and I always loved this part of the podcast. It’s a joy to share what the Lord has been counting on in my heart. This is something that has been ongoing for me and it’s really rooted. And I get into the beginning part of my story, but grew up in a very chaotic environment and at an early age, probably not similar to a lot of entrepreneurs and investors listening performance. It’s always been an idol of mine and performing for others. And when the Gospel invaded my heart, it was such a release of freedom and peace that I had just obviously I described it as know warm water poured over a very restless soul. And so I’ve noticed that the best growth in my spiritual life is it really comes in reminding myself of that gospel. It’s the gospel not only saved me and reminded me of who I am and Christ, but it’s also what propels me and gives me motivation to change. And so the verse that I literally read every day is Corinthians five. Twenty one for our sake, he made him to be sent here and, you know, sent so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. And that verse and Romans eight one. I have to remind myself every day of the Gospel not only that Jesus took my sin, but then it is something incredible. He gave me his righteousness. And for a performer like me and I’m sure a lot of those listening, that is just the best news ever, that it’s not my work, it’s his work and that it’s already finished. But what I’ve noticed is that if I really let that sink from just the words on the page from my head into my heart, then all of my relationships, from my wife to my children, to the people I get to work alongside and serve here at craft, where those relationships are all dramatically improved because I’m no longer thinking about myself. Ideally, I’m truly beyond grateful for like good God has given me. So it’s been the best business tool ever that I’ve had is to remind myself of the gospel. And that’s one of the verses that I literally read every morning.

David Salyers: You know, it’s interesting. I go to North Point Community Church with Andy Stanley and he did a sermon series a few weeks ago that really posed a challenging question that I’ve been pondering this whole crowing about. He said, you know, one day this is one of those times in life and in history that all of us will look back on and have a story about, you know, it’s a little bit like 9/11 or, you know, other times, you know, where everyone is focused on something said ten years from now, what story will we tell about this time? And I thought a lot about that, William, about will I be proud of the story I tell, you know? Well, I’ve just spent time in the basement hunkering down and or will I have seized the opportunity because, you know, the greatest value we can create many times during people’s most challenging moments. And I’ve noticed that God seems to do his greatest work during our personal, most challenging moments. And I’ve seen a lot of that going on where a lot of the scrappy entrepreneurs out there are taking advantage of a time when there’s a lot of despair and a lot of hurting people. And that’s our opportunity to do some of our greatest work. So the question on my mind has been, will I be proud of the story I tell 10 years from now about what Payton and I and Roam did during the Corona virus? And we use that to help shape our whole culture. And what we’ve done during this time and. Seize the moment, carpe IDM, you know, seize the moment and then combine that with the fact that Chick fil A, we always used to talk about that every life is a story. And we used to say, how can we use our business as an opportunity to improve the story of those we do business with. So we’ve been trying to figure out how can we use this opportunity to improve the story of not only our own employees, but those we serve. And finally, true, it lived his whole life. His favorite verse was Proverbs 20 to one. A good name is rather to be chosen then great riches. So we try to use all of those thoughts to shape our decision make because all of us have had to make a lot of decisions during this time, some tough decisions. But I want to make sure we look back on the decisions that we made during this time and we’re proud of those decisions. And those decisions helped improve the stories of those we do business with. Those decisions helped improve the stories of our employees, etc.. And how do we make sure that we maintain our good name during a time when it’s not easy sometimes? You know, we all have difficult decisions to make during this time. How do we balance that with a good name? And that’s what we’ve tried to do. I think that’s what we’ve done, Peyton. And, you know, we’ve had to make a lot of hard decisions, but I think we’ll look back 10 years from now and be proud of the decisions that we made during this time to do the right thing for the right reasons. Even when it hurts.

William Norvell: Amen. Peyton, do you have something that God’s telling you today to pass along?

Peyton Day: Well, yeah, I have actually two things, and I’ll make it really brief. First of all, it’s something that David was talking about earlier in his talk. And this idea around, you know, the work is broken and going back to Genesis two. And when you really think about it, I think it’s incumbent upon all of us as leaders to provide environments where people can thrive. And if we’re going to ask employees to spend one hundred thousand hours of their life working, it only makes sense that we would provide an environment that is fun, meaningful and purposeful. And we you look at the numbers, 70 percent disengagement in the workplace. Imagine what it would look like if 100 percent of the people were fully engaged to what they do. And so it’s just a constant reminder. You know, I think David and I share this and I know a lot of your listeners share this and I know Trevor does. It’s just feeling some burden that we have. You know, as leaders in the workplace, not necessarily a burden, but an opportunity, a blessing to be able to provide environments where people can thrive. So my heart goes there quite often. And then the second thing is I go to something I heard recently from Tim Keller where he did a talk on Psalm 11 And it’s this idea around when the foundations of the world tremble. Sometimes it seems like God is out of control, but he is not. And while we’re all going through uncertain times today, guys are in control. He is the author of Our Lives. He knows what you and I are facing. And he will be our daily bread. And by definition, because he is our daily bread. He’ll be our weekly bread, our yearly bread and our life bread. And he’s going to give each of us whatever we need to face the challenges that we’re facing today. And on the other side of this, we’re going to come out better because God has done a great work in these days. And I truly believe that’s what’s going to happen in each of our lives.

William Norvell: Amen, great work. Well, thank you all for joining us. This has been a fun roundtable event to talk through a really hot topic right now. And then we went around a lot of things. And David, also appreciate you with the Chick fil A cup. You know, can’t see that. Not everybody has video, but he’s he’s live in his marketing roots there.

David Salyers: I’ve got my shirt with the roam logo.

William Norvell: Staying On brand. This has been this super fun. I hope to have y’all back at some point in here how things have changed and how God has shown up, I hope and look forward to that day and four, five, six months, whatever that may be, where we can come back and say this is what God did in response to all of those things that we were praying for and looking for and trying our best to love and serve as he would have us. And so thank you.

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What does it mean to be a Christian financial advisor? There are lots of possible answers to this question, but today we look at two experts in the field, Eric Chetwood and Rachel McDonough, to hear what they think. 

When it comes to integrating your faith as a financial advisor, these two are living it out in the real world. Their insights will be helpful for anyone who is a financial advisor, or for anyone who is looking for one.

Useful Links:

10 Tangible Ways to Integrate Your Faith as an Advisor

Investing as Ambassadors

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

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Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the faith driven investor podcast. We’ve got an edition today that is probably a little bit overdue, and that is that we’re going to talk to some folks that are in the businesses professionals helping customers from retail through an institutional understand how to process the world of faith driven investments. A good number of our audience, of course, are direct investors and are in in the process of figure out how did they do angel investments, how do they pick out funds? And I think that we can all realize pretty quickly, that’s pretty intimidating stuff. There’s a lot there’s incredible amount of complexity. There’s incredible amount of selection. And through the grace guy, that selection is just increasing. And so the question then is where do I go to get some good counsel or how do I talk to somebody about my own particular needs rather than just reading an article about where I might invest in the latest trends or listening, of course, to a podcasts like this. How does that really impact me in my own financial situation? So faith driven advisors that are in the investment world are incredibly valuable and they view what they do as a mission and a ministry. And we’ve got two of the very best with us today. And I’ve been looking for this episode. Eric and Rachel, thank you for joining.

Rachel McDonough: Thanks for having us.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us a little bit as we get started just a little bit about each of you. Where are you calling from today, what your background is? We’re going to start back in my hometown of Durham, North Carolina, to Eric, who is a friend and neighbor in. And then we want to move to Wisconsin and hear from Rachel about what she’s doing. But, Eric, tell us about what got you to this spot where you are full time ministry in the financial marketplace.

Eric Chetwood: Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, Henry, I think I speak for Rachel when I say I feel really grateful for you and your team because you guys have really let out in the faith and work discussion, at least for folks in my circle of influence. And many of the guests that you have had are heroes of mine. So I feel really humbled to be speaking with you all today.

Henry Kaestner: Well, before you go on. Thank you for that. That just helps me feel that much better about having had you on the show. That was awesome. Thank you. It’s awesome to serve.

Eric Chetwood: It is really a humbling experience. But for me, I would say that my story after college at USC, I spent a gap year doing a Bible program in Denton, Texas, right outside of Dallas. And that year was really one of the most amazing investments of time that I could think of. And I give thanks to it for this day. But I knew that at the conclusion of that program, I wanted to come back to North Carolina and specifically play out my life in Durham, North Carolina, because I joined the church here during college and I wanted to come back and be a part of what God was doing through the summit church. And so after coming back home to join an advisory team in 2004 with an amazing mentor and boss who later became my business partner, who taught me what it looks like to love Jesus in this industry and how to care for clients holistically. So, you know, I got certified from a planner designation in 2007. And really the only other significant data point in my story would be that our team left our wire house in 2005 and started an independent registered investment advisory firm, which has given us a lot of the freedom to implement some of the initiatives that we’ll talk about today.

Henry Kaestner: Rachel, tell us a little bit about the same on your side to your background, how you found yourself, where you are today.

Rachel McDonough: Sure, I am an unlikely candidate. If you look just at the data from my background, I guess unlikely candidate to be a financial adviser. I was raised as a missionary kid in Kenya, East Africa. My parents as missionaries did not have a lot of wealth in this world. Maybe they stored up some treasures in heaven, but the balance sheet was looking a little lean. I remember we would come back on furlough to the United States and have a free lunch, get government assistance to get a free lunch at school, and then we would go back to Kenya. And I was obviously the rich kid in Kenya. So I’d go this back and forth from rich kid to poor kid in Kenya. I would have other children and come up to me in Nairobi and ask me for money. And I always had at least a little bit of spending money in my pocket. So it really made an impression on me at an early age about what it means to have wealth and what it means to be wealthy. I learned a lot about some of those intangible lessons of internal wealth and external wealth and what it takes to, I guess, transition from having money to being in a place of abundance, of being able to use that money to create something good in the world. So I was taken with that idea very early on in my career. As you know, how do we actually use the money that God’s entrusted to us to make a difference in the lives of the people around us? So fast forward a bit. After college, I took a job as a receptionist at Merrill Lynch in downtown Minneapolis, and I got bored with that after about the first 20 minutes. And so I started studying for some licensing exams. Much to my surprise, I passed them all quickly and I marched into the director’s office one day and said, I want you to hire me as a financial adviser. And here’s my 20 arguments of why you should do that. And to my surprise, he didn’t need any of my arguments. He just said, yeah, OK, you can have a shot. So there I was with no family money to start with and no book of business to inherit or purchase. And somehow, by the grace of God, there was always enough provision. I would always bring in just enough clients to meet all my hurdles. And shortly thereafter, a much like Eric the Lord released me from that warehouse and I went to the independent channel at Raymond James and then from there followed the Lord again to make a change to Ameriprise Financial, where I served today.

Henry Kaestner: You’ve had some leadership positions at Ameriprise, correct? You’ve gotten together with other groups of faith driven advisers there.

Rachel McDonough: Yes, I currently serve on the leadership team as a vice president of the CFAN Network. That’s a Christian franchise advisory network. There are eleven hundred of us at Ameriprise Financial Advisors have raised their hand and said, yes, I’m a Christian. I want to figure out how to bring my faith to work and live at the intersection of faith and finance and be well equipped to serve Christian clients who come into our practice and celibacy found that work has really become a group of friends and had the honor and the privilege to help train them and equip them to take values based investing or faith based investing and apply it and implemented in their practices through quarterly webinars and newsletters and some one on one coaching.

Henry Kaestner: Eric, you talked to at the beginning about your relationship with his friend and mentor, now partner, Rick Adams. What was it that he taught you about integrating your faith with the vocation you’ve got?

Eric Chetwood: Yeah, I think one of the things was just that how we care for clients comprehensively and that can for clients comprehensively is a lot more than just rates of return and standard deviation that it is speaking in to really all of the way that money impacts people, which money impacts people relationally, it impacts people emotionally, especially during this current pandemic. So being able to care for clients in every way that money impacts them is one of the ways that we can really reflect and represent our savior.

Henry Kaestner: Well, both of you have been a great encouragement to me and your involvement in the larger movement of faith driven investing. And Rachel, you’ve served really well and with great leadership in some of our working groups. And Eric, you’ve written an article for FDI. I am talking about how you see God calling us to live fully integrated lives. Talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that, about fully integrated lives within the context of finance, or maybe not just within the context of finance, but just what do you mean?

Eric Chetwood: Yeah. So one of the things that I have really loved about listening to you guys in this podcast is that you all examine integrating faith and work from so many different angles and living a life that doesn’t segregate the sacred and the secular. And I would say that that’s a topic that I really enjoy talking about just because I used to have a very disintegrated, compartmentalized life where I saw my relationship with God and personal ministry over here and then work over here. And that worldview caused me to buy into a lie. Early in my career. And that why is this? That work is something that I endure. So I can make a paycheck in order to fund the activities that I’m actually passionate about. And I think that lie is very prevalent in our culture. And I think financial advisers are really complicit in that, even in how we frame the retirement discussion. You know, Mr. Card, do what you have to do so that you can retire and then do what you want to do. So whenever I hear that logic, it’s usually a sign that someone doesn’t understand the integrated purpose that God has for them. And it will be very difficult for them to experience the abundant life that he promised. So for me, I didn’t understand the theology of work, and because of that, I didn’t really grasp God’s full purpose for me. I didn’t see all of the redemptive opportunities in my job as a wealth manager, and they were right in front of me because I was looking for them. And that led me to kind of a crisis of confidence and work, feeling very meaningless and empty. And so over the course of some time, I learned something that just dramatically impacted my life and career. And I learned that all of us, you and me and Rachel and everyone joining us, regardless of their profession. If you’re a follower of Jesus, you’re in full time ministry. And, you know, where do I get that? Ephesians for specifically eleven and twelve, says that the primary function of a posture or a minister is to equip the Saints for the work of the ministry. They are to equip the Saints for the work of the ministry. And that statement just has massive implications. It means that our pastors should not be the only ones doing ministry. It means that our pastor should need to be the primary ones doing ministry. It means that we, the Saints, get to the ministry. And that means that everyone listening to this is both empowered and expected to be primary agents of gospel, ministry and reconciliation. And Henry. And till we understand that until I understood that this democratization, until we see ourselves as the aroma of Christ in real estate or a kingdom of priests and wealth management or as ambassadors of price and private. We miss out on. Part of the great adventure, we miss out on the joy of knowing that we’re fulfilling our integrated purpose in life. So the first application for us is financial advisors is to recognize that our relationships with clients are, by nature. One of the most intimate professional relationships that they have and that no one may be other than their doctor is allowed in to their hopes and dreams or abilities. The way that we are. So God could potentially use us as financial advisors to make a bigger impact in a client’s life than any pastor or priest.

Henry Kaestner: That’s an awesome thing to lean into. Rachel, I know you well enough to know that that’s something you absolutely subscribe to, too. How do you see that actually working out with your clients? What does it mean when the rubber meets the road? Client comes in, you’re having that meeting. How is it that you even just approach this concept of a more integrated life and the meaning of purpose? And is Eric just said, you know, you’re invited into this special relationship to understand their hopes, their dreams, their fears and their anxieties. How do you see that mission’s been part of the Saints being equipped to do the work of the church?

Rachel McDonough: Yes, I agree with Eric and Eric. I love your passion and enthusiasm. I share it. I think that our role is a very pastoral role and it’s a role of coaching as a role of helping clients to hear God for themselves. So as the word of God tells us, we don’t actually need a human teacher per say. We have the Holy Spirit and he promises to lead us and guide us into all truth. And we have the word of God, which is sufficient for instruction in every area of life. But what an adviser can do is come alongside a client or a couple and really help them to lean in and listen. Right. I remember some of the greatest memories that I have as an advisor are times when I’ve just been able to almost be outside of the conversation, just facilitate a setup for a husband and wife to come together before God in prayer and discover his plan and his purpose for their life. One of those examples was there was a couple. The husband was a civil engineer and the wife was a CPA. And they had some extra money that they talked about potentially investing in public securities. And as they talked further. The wife really said, you know, more than anything else, I have faith and confidence that God has given my husband tremendous capacity for creating wealth and creating jobs through his business and his company. And I would rather see us reinvest this money back into his work that I believe God’s call them to and bless them to. And she must not have said that to him out loud before because, I mean, he was almost moved to tears. And that was just the result of us, not me having some kind of tremendous insider wisdom, but me just saying, come on, Dad, we need you to show up and do what only you can do to be the shepherd of your sheep. And the word of God is very clear, says my sheep. Hear my voice, my sheep know my voice and the voice of a stranger they won’t follow. So we should, as believers, come to God’s word and come to our decision making in real life with the expectation that we can anticipate the shepherd’s voice being present to lead us in a personal and relevant way in day to day decision making.

Henry Kaestner: Hear, hear. That’s awesome. Eric, I want to ask you, Rachel brought up this illustration about a husband or wife working together. Are there times that you’re invited into people’s lives that you feel like you’re a little bit of a marriage counselor first?

Eric Chetwood: Sure. You know, it’s amazing that the husband has his own risk tolerance and his own financial goals and aspirations, and the wife has her own risk tolerance. And surprisingly, in the humor, you know, God’s creation, he normally allows people who are diametrically opposed to marry each other. And so a lot of times you yeah, you are dropping financial grenades, so to speak. You’re asking questions and then maybe even ducking a little bit. And that is, you know, an area where so many times I tell people that our role a lot of people think that this industry is all about financial analysis and it is to some degree. But I feel especially in the last few weeks during the Kovik crisis, I have felt more like a therapist than I have a financial counselor. And so, so many times people will come to us in the last questions that really aren’t necessarily financial. They’re just about life wisdom. And that’s why it’s so intimate. And that’s why it’s so far to get to walk through different chapters of life with books.

Henry Kaestner: Rachel, as you do this and you walk through different chapters with different people and it’s had hundreds and hundreds of conversations with individuals and with couples and with families. How has it impacted the way that you yourself think about me? You talked about, of course, your upbringing and being rich and poor at the same time. But as you’ve gone ahead and just heard the collective responses about financial planning and how to think about generosity and investments from your clients, has that changed the way that you think about money, too?

Rachel McDonough: I would say the biggest influence on the way that I think about money has been, you know, hopefully the word of God. Right. That’s the right answer. But also, Kingdom Advisors has been a tremendous blessing to me and the wisdom of Ron Blue and Rob West and some of the other leaders thought leaders there.

Henry Kaestner: For those of us who don’t know, who are listening, who don’t know what Kingdome Advisors is, what is Kingdom Advisors?

Rachel McDonough: Kingdom Advisors is a fantastic organization for financial professionals. And they created a core curriculum. I know, Eric, you’ve gone through it and I have as well. This CKA certified kingdom advisor curriculum, is kind of like the biblical version of the CFP, I guess. And that allows us to really take a deep dove into God’s word to develop personal convictions on several different topic areas, to read the scriptures and then pause and listen for the high spirits voice to make decisions on different areas of life, such as giving, managing debt, spending choices, investing choices and so on, has been a tremendous resource. They’ve created lots of things that can be shared with clients as long as you’re if you’re a financial advisor. Of course, you need to check that with compliance, but they’ve been great tools and great resources for our clients and that’s really had a huge impact on me. The client conversations themselves. I would say have just given me a tremendous amount of depth and understanding and appreciation for the level of each person is at a different place. You know, it’s really a journey. This is a financial journey. And our job, my job and Eric’s job should be to meet that person on their journey, whatever stage of the journey they’re at. Not with condemnation or judgment or you should do this and you shouldn’t do that. But help me understand how you thought here. Helped me understand where you’d like to go. And then let me come alongside you and help you and assist you to complete that journey.

Henry Kaestner: Eric, what do you think is the biggest mistake you see a lot of your clients make in the way? Just that they think about money and planning?

Eric Chetwood: Yeah, I would say a lot of times having a short term mentality and allowing the headlines of the day to determine their investment decisions. I know that that’s something that you guys have talked about a lot. That’s why one of the things that we say to clients is that outperforming the market is not a financial goal. It’s not a financial plan that their behavior is going to have probably more to do with their investment outcomes. Specifically, the discipline to hold tight to a quantifiably data driven financial plan. Their ability to adhere to that plan is going to have more to do with their long term financial success than any market timing or stocks.

Henry Kaestner: Do you ever find out that you work with clients that don’t yet have a faith and you get an opportunity to share within the reason for the hope that you’ve got?

Eric Chetwood: Yeah, absolutely. So our book is probably maybe 50 percent of our people are believers and 50 percent of them are not believers, some staunchly opposed to faith in the gospel. And so one of the things that we talk about a lot as a team is that even if our clients don’t yet love Jesus, that doesn’t change the fact that Jesus loves every single one of our clients and that we can be if we are the aroma of Christ. You know, that means when clients interact with us and the way that we care for them, we do everything for them as if we were doing it out to the Lord. And as they interact with their sets, they smell us, if you will. They ought to be able to smell love and joy and peace patients, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And because we’re able to speak into so many areas of their life, not just their finances, then we’re able to be that aroma or we strive to be that aroma and reflect well on our king.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to ask you both something that’s obviously it’s top of mind for all of us on this podcast, which is this concept that we might be able to invest guides, resources for his glory, participate in the work that he’s doing in his kingdom, and not just necessarily being of the mindset that, gosh, I want to make as much money over here and then give it all away here. But that very process of stirring the wealth and investments might provide investment capital to different enterprises that are being used to transform culture. So any thoughts what you guys are seeing in terms of trends? Is this something is becoming more mainstream or more clients talking about it? Just want you both riff on that a bit.

Rachel McDonough: I have a couple of statistics to share on that. So there is currently about 51 trillion dollars held by Christians who have specifically expressed an interest in aligning their investments with their values. And as we know, money, especially in the financial services industry, really has a voice of its own. Money talks. What would happen? I just want to think hypothetically, what would happen if we saw 51 trillion dollars exit a particular industry like pornography or abortion. And it’s not all about what you’re against instead of what you’re for. I understand the importance of embracing positive investments. But what would it do? I mean, that’s an easy thing. The exclusionary screening, the ability to screen out certain types of industries or certain companies from our portfolio is becoming increasingly easy and accessible to investors of all sizes. So what kind of a message could we say with our cumulative voice and then with the shareholder advocacy that’s been going on as well with certain fund companies just actively behind the scenes? Even if we don’t personally engage with those companies ourselves, we know that we can easily hire a mutual fund company who’s going to engage on our behalf and express our values, the values that are portrayed in the Bible. And if we have the ability to do that. Why not? You know, I think we should not ask ourselves why should I engage in this activity of using investment vehicles that have a values alignment? But why wouldn’t I? Especially as far more products are being created that have better and better performance. And the fees have come down substantially. There is just such an opportunity for us to give our clients the gift of not only having a relationship with their investments that’s based on returns, but also a relationship with their investing activity that’s based on their values and a way to live out who they are and have a greater sense of wholeness in their investing.

Eric Chetwood: Yeah, I mean, I’ll just add to that for us. This is something that we’re growing in and we’ve grown in very recently because I think a few years ago, as we were looking at the investment arena, faith driven funds and ETF and things like that, it was pretty slim. And there wasn’t a lot of track record or at least that I saw there wasn’t a strong track record. And so we have revisited that because this is absolutely that we want something that we want to at least provide to our clients and make sure that they are living in integrity, that their investments are congruent with their belief system. And it’s something that we’re growing in for sure. And I’ve been very encouraged. I think Rachel probably knows more about this space than I do. But I’ve been very perche saying that the universe of available investment options or fund options that are specifically focused on redemptive investing is growing. And the track records are getting better and better and the internal expenses are decreasing. So I think that’s a positive for financial advisors who are listening to this, who are open to the possibility that they might incorporate those into their portfolios. And one of the things I think Rachel made a great point on is that in the event that you’re not in a position where you’re managing a portfolio where that’s outsourced, you know, to the advisory team within a bigger warehouse or something like that, you can absolutely be an advocate for some of the fund companies, Henry, that you guys have had on this podcast. You know, even tired and thrive, Praxis and Timothee and Inspire and Nabay, Maria and others, God Stone to be an advocate for them to have access on those trading platforms, I think is really important that all of us can be a partner.

Henry Kaestner: I think that a lot of strides that have been made in a lot of the warehouses, in a lot of the larger platforms for financial advisors to incorporate more faith friendly, faith driven investment vehicles. And yet, because of compliance, anybody’s on a platform like that will never be able to have complete carte blanche on the things they do. Believing that angel investing and finding faith driven entrepreneurs in your own community is a great place to be able to put your shoulder to the power folks, to be able to mentor, to be able to get actively involved. By really having skin in the game, be strapped to the mass. I got to be careful about mixing metaphors here. But are there ever times where you see that you need to encourage your clients to investigate other ways that they might be able investigate according their faith that are beyond your own abilities as financial advisors on a specific platform?

Eric Chetwood: Yes. So I think one thing for us that I was very encouraged to see was just the opportunity to within donor advised funds, specifically a partner that we’ve used in the past, National Christian Foundation. Being able to have exposure to some private equity vehicles within those donor platforms. And I think that is really encouraging. And there’s always going to be a conflict of interest whenever you have an advisor who is compensated as a percentage of the assets that they manage. There’s going to be a conflict of interest there to redirect some of those funds elsewhere. But as long as that is acknowledged and. You know, walking through that with the client to say, hey, I do think that their private placement, real estate investment, that I was having redemptive component to that. I think that absolutely has a place in your portfolio. I do think that that private equity component that has a redemptive quality to it has a place in your portfolio, because when we as advisors only focus on, oh, I don’t want to lose assets, then we’re giving in to a scarcity mentality and we are doing what is right for the client in building those allocations in a way that is truly diversified, then I absolutely believe that God will replenish that in order that I just add to this isn’t about private investment, but one of the things that I’ve been seeing that clients have really appreciated has been understanding what’s inside the fund wrapper.

Rachel McDonough: So, so many of the investments that advisors use with their clients are not individual stocks for other their ETF or their mutual funds. And that’s a great idea. If you don’t have time to be tracking individual stocks all the time. Right. So by using a fund, though, we kind of remove investors one more step away from the companies that they are owners of as being shareholders. And so I think it’s important. I’ve been including in the quarterly agenda with my clients quarterly review agenda. I’ve just been adding in a little segment at the bottom of each meeting agenda that says know what you own and reintroducing clients to the companies that they own, not X, Y and Z Fund, but the individual companies inside of the fund and telling the story of the companies to the clients. So one that I put on an agenda recently revealed a medical technology advancement that had happened through one of the companies that was inside of a mutual fund that a client owned. And as I sat across the table from her, she got really quiet. Now, all of a sudden, she just said, well, you know, if I could do that with my money, I don’t even care if it makes money or loses money. And it’s not that we’re advocating that you should see your investment dollars as charitable giving dollars. But what a value and a blessing for clients to be able to have a positive impact even with their investment dollars. For most of us are giving dollars are a smaller bucket than the dollars that we need to invest and save for the future. And so if we can have a positive Kingdome impacts, not just with the charitable dollars, but with the investment dollars to start to understand what’s inside the wrapper and understand that those are businesses and that as shareholders we are business owners. It’s really been a powerful and positive experience for clients.

Henry Kaestner: I think that’s a great illustration. You touched on something there about the difference between investments and giving. And I want to delve into that a little bit. I know each of you both enough to know that where you stand in terms of storage versus ownership and that kind of concept, and you’re both familiar with Randy Alcorn and his work and things like that. What are some of the tools that you use to work with clients as they wrestle with things like structure versus ownership, may wrestle with things like this? Should I tie? Is the tie enough? How do I think about generosity? And just how do you wear some of the different techniques and tools that you’ve used when you find an opening with some of your clients? To be clear, I understand, because I’ve heard from both of you attorneys, attorneys, yes. You need to listen first. You need to hear what they’re saying. And yet there must be times over the engagement with a client, the relationship with a client. Do you get an opportunity to encourage them towards generosity or maybe even challenge them if you’ve worked with them for a very long time? How does that work out? And are there tools are there different things that you use to bring that topic to bear?

Rachel McDonough: Well, Henry, I think that the financial plan is the perfect tool and the perfect platform to do that. When you set out a financial plan with a client and you’re saying, OK, here we are here your retirement goals, here’s what you’ve saved, here’s what you need to live on. It’s just a really easy and natural way to have the conversation about what else would you like to do besides survive? It’s a great time to talk about those charitable goals, the desire for a kingdom impact. Clients have passions. They have passions that God’s place on their hearts. And when you give them the freedom and understanding that actually they have capacity to do more. I have not found that clients are tight fisted. I have found that they primarily need to understand that they’re being responsible, but that they already have an inherent desire to be more generous.

Eric Chetwood: That’s good. I think the only thing that I would add to that is that because our relationships with clients are so intimate. One of the things that I found really helpful for myself and for clients is to share with them how I’ve grown in my understanding of generosity. And I’ll give you a personal example. You know, a couple of years ago, I read the book, God and Money by Gregory Barber and John Cortinas, and it absolutely wrecked me. I mean, wrecked me in a good way and how that changed my view of stewardship and generosity and how that changed my view of really releasing my business to be God’s business was very helpful for me.

And to share my journey with clients was helpful. And so we provide them resources like God and money. That’s actually one of the KPI that we track. How many copies of that did we give away today? How many copies of Every Good Endeavor by Tim Keller? Have we given away how many copies of How to be Rich? By this day we have given away. And that’s one of our KPI is one of the other resources is that we have a chaplain for our clients. A lot of companies have chaplains for their employees. Henry, I know that you’re a big advocate of that. We have chaplains for our clients because we do work for many different chapters of life with clients. And when we see that a client gets a cancer diagnosis or they lose a spouse, they don’t care. They don’t want to talk about the internal rate of return or the standard deviation of their portfolio. They want to talk about bigger things. And so when they share that with us, you know, we hurt with them. We pray with them if they’ll allow us to. And then we say, I want you to know that we have a chaplain on staff who is trained to help you process this. And they want to come and sit next to you and process this with you in a non-threatening way. But that is another resource that we can use and leverage to guide our clients to a Shulem relationship with money.

Henry Kaestner: That’s awesome. Rachel, I don’t know that I ever appreciate the fact that you grew up in Kenya and that you had that type of background and that experience. And now that you’ve been more more exposed to faith driven investing. What are your hopes for what the development of investment vehicles might look like for the kind of guy that you grew up in?

Rachel McDonough: I think Africa will always be on my heart and my mind. It has a way of getting under your skin. I was really excited. There was a culvert, 19 bond that was invested in by one of the mutual funds that we’ve used. I was excited to see that I would even be more excited to see, you know, some type of for profit endeavor to bring clean drinking water and increased amount of economy to the continent of Africa. Well, I grew up in Kenya. I did spend a few weeks in the country of Ghana. And we really see that business and developing economy is the way that there will be a sustainable ramp out of poverty and for Africa. And so we did a fish farm project to try to create some jobs and kind of create some. Bonhomie in one of Africa’s least developing nations and just being there for that few weeks. With the focus on incorporating business and the gospel was a tremendous impact on me.

Just to see, you know, what would it mean to give real people their dignity back by allowing them to produce income and produce revenue for their families? You know, I’d love to see some mutual funds dedicate a small percentage of their overall a, um, to economic development in the continent of Africa. I’d also be really excited to see some things happening in the private sector that, you know, people could invest and expect a return, but also, you know, really see Africa lifted out of poverty.

Henry Kaestner: Guys, you’ve been around this ecosystem long enough to know that. We ask every one of our podcast guests things that they’re hearing from God in his word, maybe today, maybe yesterday, maybe this week, but some way that you feel that he’s speaking to you through the Bible. And I’d love to hear what that’s been looking like for each of you.

Eric Chetwood: Yeah. So one of the things that I’m learning right now is that I have a tendency to needlessly complicate what God asks of me. I realize that I have a big to want to do things for God rather than just enjoying being with God. And so one of the things that I’ve been meditating on is what Jesus says to the disciples. You know, one day when right before the ascension, he says two things. He says you will receive power and you will be my witnesses. And so I’ve been thinking about you and on what it means to be an effective witness. And one of the comforting things for me is that you don’t really have to be particularly smart or articulate or even talented or rich. The only thing that you need to do to be a witness is you have to be willing to relay what you’ve seen and heard. And that’s it, because the power he said in the previous verse, the power has already been taken care of. And so I think that manifests itself in a variety of different ways. Day to day. But being willing to be a witness and being the aroma of Christ again. You know, I think about, yo, my wife smells great and she has this perfume that sometimes at the morgue, I give her a hug and then I’ll come to the office and sometimes I will smell her perfume at various times throughout the day. Sometimes other people will smell her perfume on me. And in the same way, in the same vein, I cannot be the aroma of Christ if I’m not communing with Jesus. And all the things that we talked about earlier were the fruit of the spirit comes out of that daily communion with you.

Rachel McDonough: I love that. It just sounds exactly like what that’s been laying on my heart and a lot of ways. I’ve been reading this book, The Secrets of the Secret Place, by Bob Sorgi. If anyone needs a little Kickstarter to their quiet time, I think it’s a fantastic usually one or two or three pages to just give you some keys to ignite your personal time with God. And we know that it is out of the abundance of our intimacy with him and only through our abundance of intimacy with him, that we can really have something valuable to give to clients. But I would say, like if I just looked at the scripture, that’s been kind of a guiding scripture for me over the past 10 years. I would say First Corinthians, chapter three verses ten through fifteen. So by the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder.

This is Paul writing and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he built for no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, his workmanship will be evident because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed the fire in the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he is built survives, he will receive a reward. If his burned up people suffer a loss, he himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames. That verse is just so powerful and so haunting and so inspiring at the same time. I love the concept of gold. You know, before building with gold. You think of a goldsmith. They don’t build quickly. They build with quality. And so sometimes, especially in our culture, we tend to be busy, busy, busy and not so much in Kenya. Kenya, there’s a more laid back culture and a less hurried pace. But here in the United States, we just tend to go, go, go 100 miles an hour all the time. I think what that does is it distracts us from the important things, the things that will last, the things that will have eternal fruit. And yet Jesus told us in June 15. It is to my father’s glory that you bear much fruit, the fruit that will remain. So we know that our goal as believers should be out of our intimacy and our abiding relationship with Jesus. There should come through our. Lives an eternal fruit and eternal quality to our work that will last even far after our lives on this earth are done. And what an awesome challenge and one awesome ability to just call labor of a thought in our lives.

Henry Kaestner: Guys, it’s been great having you on the show. I’m encouraged by your partnership, by your friendship, by your faithfulness. By the way that you’re getting out there and you’re really leading. Rachel, I think about eleven hundred people on a platform that you get a chance to minister in addition to administering your young basin. Eric, I love the way that you’ve been thoughtful about integrating your life in the thoughtfulness that you have with Rick about promoting and encouraging generosity and through different resources and just the way that you do life on people. This has been encouraging for me. I’m grateful for both of you and your time.

Eric Chetwood: Thank you. This has been a joy.

Rachel McDonough: Thanks. You too. Eric.