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Today’s guest is Ben Chelf. Ben is a founding partner at Elementum Ventures, has been named to ComputerWorld’s Top 40 under 40 Innovative IT Professionals, and is in the Stanford Inventor Hall of Fame. 

He has lived every part of the entrepreneurial cycle and is passionate about sharing his knowledge and experience. As part of this work, Ben also heads up the Venture Lab at Praxis, helping serial entrepreneurs research and develop new organizations from the moment of inspiration to incorporation. 

He has lived both the Faith Driven Investor and the Faith Driven Entrepreneur story, and we think you’ll enjoy hearing him talk about both.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Ben Chelf: It’s about the heart posture of the investor, it is about recognizing that God is constantly working on us, teaching us things, sanctifying us to use the big term.

And honestly, that’s all that’s required, paying attention to the way that the Lord is directing, being really intentional about looking for what God wants to teach you in any given moment, the way he wants to apply the gifts and talents and resources that he’s given to you, all the product on the shelf, all the different options. Look, there are tons and tons of ways, both, quote unquote, faith driven and not to deploy capital. And God can use all of it. And God does use all of it.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, I’m here with my partner and co-host, Luke Roth. Luke, good morning. Good morning. Good to be here, Luke in from our virtual studio and Sweet and Spy and Nash, Vegas and Nashville.

Luke Roush: How does it feel to be in that it’s our new home? It’s a cool thing. Everybody’s doing it. Come on out. Water’s warm. That’s right, everybody.

Ben Chelf: Don’t do that. Don’t do that. Come on. San Francisco Bay Area. There’s hope. There is.

Henry Kaestner: Yes, there is. Ben isn’t there? And Ben is our special guest. Ben is with us in San Francisco. As you may have just gathered and I am in the South Bay down in Los Gatos. And we are going to be talking and Ben, about a whole bunch of different things today. There’s just a myriad of things we talk about. We can talk about entrepreneurship. And I think we well, a bit we’ll talk about investing. He’s a partner Elementum partners. He’s also a venture partner. I think that’s your official title. Maybe a Praxis talk about Praxis a lot because they’re really, really good at what they do as they work with us on thinking about the redemptive frame of entrepreneurship and investing. And our hope is that during today that you get a sense of, again, just a broader sense, a more textured sense, maybe, if you will, of the way the guy is working in the marketplace out here in Silicon Valley, but through investments and that you might leave your time with us today, encouraged and that you might feel that much more clarity about how you might store the wealth and the resources that God has entrusted you with and how you might participate in the work that he’s doing the world, how your interactions with entrepreneurs might be advanced and richer for you and for the entrepreneur, and that you’ll feel closer to God. That’s our hope. That’s our hope with every episode. And then it’s great to have you. We like to get a biographical sketch of every one of our guests. Who are you? Where do you come from? Why do you like baseball so much? Anything is fair game. So bring us right through, including your entrepreneurial career, including snowboarding and snowboarding. A long time. I’m asking you about it. OK, so who are you? Where do you come from? Please weave your faith. Of course, because it’s the faith driven investor. Weave your faith into that too. You grew up in a Christian house.

Ben Chelf: Yeah, well, you asked about baseball. I guess we’ll start there. That’s the most important thing, I guess. I grew up in Indiana. How did I get into baseball? It started in first grade when I’d come home. There were really only four channels on the TV at home, the major networks and WGAN, which is Chicago’s local station, where they played the Cubs games and White Sox games and whatnot. And so I come home from school. And because Wrigley Field didn’t have lights at the time, all the games are played during the day, come home from school, flip on the TV, there would be WGAN and the Cubs would be playing. And I got used to watching the Cubs after school every day. And in fact, they just happened to be on a home stretch.

And so there were a number of days in a row where was true. And then I remember the first day I come home and I flipped on the TV after school and the Cubs were playing and I was really distraught. And I asked my dad, like, where’s the Cubs game? And that’s when he taught me about baseball schedules and the fact that they travel around. And that’s kind of how I got into baseball from a very young age. My mom and dad met in seminary. And so that gives you a bit of window into the church environment at home. Tons of church in home, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, the whole nine yards. But like a lot of people, my own faith had ebbs and flows throughout, you know, definitely grew up in the church, learned a ton about God and a ton about Jesus. But when I went to college. Faith kind of took a backseat, didn’t rediscover it until graduate school. And then kind of from there, my faith matured as I became an adult, kind of interweaving the life stuff. I did come out to California for college. I like to joke that I’m a Silicon Valley cliche in every way, except for that I have faith in God. You know, I went to Stanford, I dropped out of Stanford, I started a software company. I started another company. I became a venture capitalist. I mean, I don’t know how you draw it up any differently as cliche as it comes out here, but yeah. So that’s a little bit of the personal track in the faith track.

Henry Kaestner: So tell us about that software company. You know, we also have a sister podcast for those of you don’t know, called the Faith Driven Entrepreneur talk to us about that software company dropping out of Stanford. It must have been a pretty good opportunity.

Ben Chelf: Yeah. So I was working on some new technology in the research lab there that would analyze software, looking for problems, quality problems, security problems and really, really tough stuff to find stuff that’s difficult to find in Cuba and whatnot. So oftentimes problems that would manifest themselves out in the field. And we started getting a lot of inbound requests from folks who wanted to use this technology. So we smelled the market opportunity and we decided to start a company based on that. And we productize that technology. We started selling it in the market. We grew that business to about three, four hundred fifty people before it was acquired in twenty fourteen.

Luke Roush: How many partners did you have when you got started?

Ben Chelf: And yeah, there were four of us in graduate school together and we kind of all jumped out of school over that first year to start the thing full time. And then of course our professor was involved. So we had technically five co-founders. It was a really robust group of co-founders which allowed us to really grow the business. In a cash flow positive way, actually, before even raising funds, so we bootstrapped the thing for five years before doing just a single round of financing anything, here’s the big pithy kind of cliche type of open ended question.

Henry Kaestner: Anything about God that you learned through your process of running a company and growing a company, exiting a company?

Ben Chelf: That’s just such a big question. It’s hard to come up with an answer to that question. But Faith Driven Entrepreneur.

Henry Kaestner: So let’s start with us. So you’ve got a bunch of partners. Yeah. And you’re out there. Any of them share your faith?

Ben Chelf: Yes. One of them in my first company did.

Henry Kaestner: Was prayer a part of what you did? Was your faith ever brought in a question? Did you sense that there’s a holy ambition of what you’re doing?

Ben Chelf: Yeah. So I’ll kind of describe a company one and company to the second company was in the entertainment industry and we were developing software and other tools for doing story development in a new way. And I would say with the first company, I was still in that mindset of sacred secular divide and plugged in a church service in junior high in ministry. Did my Bible study all the things that you would do? But at work there wasn’t much talk about that. And I felt like we should do a good job at work. I should build this business. Your question about what did you learn about God? It was so clear that God was just opening doors and providing opportunities. But what was interesting is as I got more wrapped up in that business and my identity was as Silicon Valley co-founder or founder or tech startup founder, from a character standpoint, I started putting God making God smaller and smaller. And it was more about me and me and my company and us and much to my own detriment, and took years to kind of realize that because it started small and then it kind of creeps up and creeps up. So while I think the work we were doing was good work for other people who were writing software, and there was certainly a care for those people and wanting to make their lives better that I could see God in and God blessing, I allowed my they didn’t get too wrapped up in that one. And so coming out of that experience and then thinking about what to do next and how to do it, I did kind of have a real come to Jesus moment for lack of a better way of putting it and saying, all right, Lord, I want to do better this next time or from an ongoing standpoint. And so how can I kind of keep the priorities straight? And so we built the second business a little bit different way and kind of made sure that from an identity standpoint, I didn’t have everything in me kind of wrapped up in that. And I tried to keep my identity where it was supposed to be.

Luke Roush: And how much gap between kind of company one and company two to one or more of your co-founders come over to Company two with you, or was that just a totally Denovo experience?

Ben Chelf: Yeah, totally start over from scratch and back, basically, because it was in the entertainment industry, I kind of left Silicon Valley. We built the business here, but it was much more of a Hollywood type of thing than it was a Silicon Valley type of thing. So we had different network of people, different co-founders. And it was about nine months from when I left, when I started having the inkling for the next company. And then another six months after that, when I kind of had the cool founding team and we got incorporated and off to the races.

Henry Kaestner: So when you talk about the second company being a little less about the secular spiritual divide and a little bit less like a smaller guy, just for fun, that a little bit. Tell me a little bit more about what that look like, and especially now as you work with Faith driven entrepreneurs through your work at Praxis, what does it look like to be more intentional about weaving your faith in.

Ben Chelf: Yeah, so I talk to some folks at church about a year ago on the intersection of faith and work or the integrating your faith into your work as I think is a common phrase. And the point I made there and this is you know, this is a bit of a bold statement, but bear with me. I said, look, if you’re trying to integrate your faith into your work, you’ve probably already missed it because it is not about this puzzle that you’re trying to, like, put the pieces together. It’s rather your faith should be so foundational to who you are and what you are and what you’re trying to do, that pretty much everything should flow from that. And that’s obviously an aspiration that Jesus did perfectly and we will never do perfectly. But I think that when we try to just start manipulating things or orchestrating is such a OK, I’m going to pray at this hour, during this day at work, because that’s how I’m integrating my faith into my work. I think we’ve we’ve kind of missed it.

And I’m learning these things through the years as well. I always say when I first started getting really intentional about integrating faith and work, it was a little bit more of that. It was like the Ben-Chelf-integration show as opposed to the Lord fueling everything that I do and giving me the energy and me being rooted in that and just letting the work be the work. And so I think one of my favorite verses is first. Thessalonians, five 17, pray without ceasing. I think it’s just an incredible concise call to the kind of relationships we’re supposed to have with the Lord, and that’s obviously not to me. We’re just on our knees talking to God 24/7, but rather the spirit of that continual communion that he is always present in every thought and everything we say and everything we do.

Luke Roush: So when you now as an investor at Omentum, when you work with portfolio companies, how do you counsel? What I hear you saying is that it’s not so much prescriptive sort of here is this tactic or that tactic, but it’s more descriptive of kind of where the heart posture and posture kind of indwelling of the Holy Spirit in somebody’s life. How do you counsel one of your business leaders in a direction that isn’t sort of some kind of a forced integration or both on spiritual integration, but actually kind of dwelling? How do you counsel them?

Ben Chelf: Yeah, good question. One of the things that I notice is that so much of the entrepreneurial journey, I mean, is the life journey is kind of about self-discovery. Entrepreneurs are constantly learning about their businesses, about market share, but about themselves in the process. And, you know, one of our founders, Christian Guy, was exposed to Praxis, became a Praxis fellow. And what it did is he got to see other Christians working out their faith in their businesses and their lives. And he kind of came back with this new excitement about faith that he hadn’t had previously and just could see how, you know, there could be a more holistic view of faith as it pertains to life and work and whatnot. And I simply told him, pay attention to that, pay attention to what you see in others and what you see, like in the energy that you have. You know, this brings to you to be considering, you know, the way or your faith can play out. And so I think a lot of it, in terms of counseling, to answer your question more directly, is pay attention to the work that God is doing in you and work on that more than anything else.

Henry Kaestner: So that’s some great counsel, particularly for those listeners that are angel investors working with entrepreneurs. I want to shift gears just a little bit and focus on a faith driven investor ministry a bit. And I want to turn back the clock to the beginning of faith driven investor. And there’s this working guy that maybe twenty five or thirty of us we’re all working on together, which is the sense of, well, you know, there’s probably a community out there of Christ followers that are in the investment world and venture capital and private equity. And what’s it look like? We come together to encourage each other to share best practices. And if we can do that, what’s a mission and a vision? What are the problems we’re trying to solve? Where are the things that we’re for? And in that, one of our hypotheses was that there wasn’t a lot of selection that at times we described the movement like walking into a Russian grocery store in the 1980s, and it’s not really a lot of product on the shelves. And what does it look like to get out there and to encourage the formation of other funds that are in real estate and private equity and public equity, domestic and overseas? And actually, interestingly, over the course of last 18 to 24 months, we found dozens and dozens of funds, some that already existed, a whole bunch that are new, always spiritual integration. But the problem that we really saw was that there wasn’t a lot of selection on the shelves. And I’ll never forget you looking at that and saying, nope, that’s not the problem. That’s not the problem. What do you mean it’s not the problem? You know, the people want to be intentional about how they store their capital and they want to be able to find funds that they’re going to be able to see some sort of chaplaincy or some sort of faith driven employee resource group kind of work into the fabric like, no, that’s not it. The formation, the foundation of the movement needs to be about something else. What was that something else?

Ben Chelf: It’s about the heart posture of the investor. It is about recognizing that God is constantly working on us, teaching us things, sanctifying us to use the big term.

And honestly, that’s all that’s required, paying attention to the way that the Lord is directing, being really intentional about looking for what God wants to teach you in any given moment, the way he wants to apply the gifts and talents and resources that he’s given to you, all the product on the shelf, all the different options. Look, there are tons and tons of ways, both, quote unquote, faith driven and not to deploy capital. And God can use all of it and God does use all of it.

And so I think if we just had Christians who are just 100 percent sold out to all right, Lord, I want my balance sheet to look exactly like you want it to look. I want my pencil to look exactly like you want it to look. I want my cash flow to look exactly like you want it to look. And I’m willing to sacrifice I’m willing to lay it all out there for you to teach me things and. Reallocate things according to what you need to teach me in any given moment, whether that be very safe positions like cash or more speculative things or more impact things, you know, he can lead us. And I think to the Lord, these are just the tools he uses to grow us closer to him and to love us, because that’s the bottom line. It’s about that relationship with him, his love for us and our response and love to him.

Luke Roush: Maybe share just a little bit about from your personal story. I mean, I think one thing that you and I have talked about previously is a loan that you made to a ministry in San Francisco, just kind of responding to the holy Crompton’s call, Holy Spirit’s prompting on your life, maybe shared just for a little bit on that.

Ben Chelf: Yeah, yeah. I want to keep the details vague enough for public distribution. Sure, sure. Sure.

But look, they’re going to be times where you take a look at a circumstance and there’s a clear need. And in this case, you know, it was an organization who, due to the circumstance, there was a threat to their real estate situation. Right. And they were renting before. And suddenly that was not going to be an option. They were going to get evicted unless they were able to purchase the property. And these things happened in this particular case, it happened very quickly because there was a family inheritance involved and there was another buyer lined up and so on.

And this was one of those cases where, you know, if you looked at it on paper and we talked to our quote unquote financial advisors, we talked to our financial advisors about it, and they said, now this is this is a little bit beyond the pale of what would be responsible just in terms of the size of the loan relative to our balance sheet. And but, you know, again, using the gifts that God had given me, I felt like I could do at least a cursory analysis of the business to determine if it was a reasonable loan. I’m not a banker. I don’t know how to underwrite loans technically. But, you know, I could do a little bit of math and do my own guess as to is this a fundable thing in the medium term if they had more time.

And so I sat down with the people of the organization and I looked at their books and I did the best I could. And my wife and I, we prayed about it and we just felt like God said, hey, you can help here, so help. And we structured a deal that, again, it was it was extra risk. Right. It was a risk that we didn’t need to take from a purely portfolio management standpoint. But we could help. And, you know, in this case, it was a happy ending. Right? We made them the kind of bridge loan they bought the building within. I think it was three or four months. They had a bank do a real mortgage. And so we were paid back and it was then we could just use that capital for something else. But yeah, I think as an example of just being open to things that go a little bit beyond the norms in terms of asset allocation. And honestly, we had to be prepared for it to end badly where either that capital got locked up or we ended up having to foreclose. I mean, there was all sorts of ways it could have gone wrong, but maybe a little bit on that, which is, I think in my own observations, is we can play things pretty safe where we can isolate ourselves from the mess.

That’s one temptation that wealth can afford, is ability to isolate ourselves and not take risk and not get in the messy details of relationship and life. And the Lord just wants us to be in community. He wants us to love and serve other people. And guess what? That’s messy. I guess there’s there’s risk in that. And so if you use your wealth to eliminate all risk, chances are you might not be all the way putting yourself into these relationships and a sacrificial mindset.

Luke Roush: Yes. What you’re speaking to just in that example, but also in what you were sharing earlier, is this idea of the entwining. The Holy Spirit in the context of business oftentimes needs to be unscripted. You know, we sometimes have a bunch of debate within our partnership and with others externally that are like, hey, you know, what are the programmatic elements that every one of your portfolio companies does to manifest scripture in the context of business operations? And we wrestle with that internally. We get pushed on it in some cases appropriately, externally, to understand what the KPIs are across the portfolio. But how do you think through just on the one hand, when it’s unscripted, it can feel mushy, it can feel kind of situational, can feel even like convenience. That’s really convenient, that it’s different for every company. But maybe just speak to how you’ve navigated that an element of.

Ben Chelf: Yeah, that’s a really hard one, and I’m lucky enough, the my partner is that element and we share the same faith. And so there’s a a trust element to each of our own discernment with respect to that, where our goal is to always use the intellectual capabilities, the rigor, the data, all the stuff that God has given us to make decisions, to use all of that and kind of intention with that sometimes is the kind of prompting of the Holy Spirit, the just like what is our gut telling us how we should operate from a faith perspective, we’ve seen it work a couple of ways where we’ll make an investment that we think has certain upside from a data standpoint. But it might be, say, 70 percent of what we would normally like to see. Right. But then there’s a strong spiritual component to it. Or we might make a decision to, in some sense, be a really good actor in an investing scenario and follow on rounds happen. And that’s not necessarily the best move financially, but it is the right thing to do. And what’s been interesting, and I’ve been at this with elements and for just over five years now is almost without fail when we feel like we’re quote on quote sacrificing or when we feel like we’re maybe conceding something, it turns out we’re actually not.

It turns out that ended up being the more financially savvy thing to do or the better upside thing to do. And I don’t know if that’s God blessing the decision or, you know, a lot of times just these ideas of love. Your neighbor work out to be really good business practices to.

Henry Kaestner: So, Ben, you’ve been an entrepreneur, you’re an investor, you’ve been involved with Praxis. You have an opportunity being where you live to just kind of reflect on what’s going on in the world. And because you’ve been really good at challenging us, as we have looked to with others, grow the movement. What are some of your reflections about what is broken and what might need to be redeemed about the investment, space and world? What would you like to see happen over the next five or 10 years? As you say, this is a healthier ecosystem, but maybe there’s too much in that because it maybe it’s the fact that maybe the ecosystem in the way that investors work with entrepreneurs isn’t broken or that it’s not healthy now. So maybe you think it is. But just what are your reflections on where you’d like to see the industry go and how people think about investing? Yeah. Is it broken? Is it not broken? What do you think?

Ben Chelf: There are a lot of broken things, that’s for sure. I think, honestly, one of the biggest ways that it’s broken is both investors and entrepreneurs are not brutally honest with themselves. I think having been an entrepreneur a couple of times, there’s a certain amount of optimism that you have to have. There’s this like almost blindness to reality, you have to say. Right. And that’s fine and good. Right.

That’s that’s why stuff gets started. Otherwise, nothing would ever get started. That being said, I think there are a lot of companies that just kind of meander along for and should just be cut off, should be done.

But for lack of on the part of both entrepreneur and investor, just being really honest about the opportunity and not being afraid of saying, hey, we tried, we could swing and we missed. They’re going to be other at bats. But in this one we took a swing and we missed. I think that’s one of the big things that’s broken. I think a lot of times in the faith driven world especially, we can be a little bit conflict avoidant. We can be afraid of that conversation because it might be seen as not the Christian thing to do, to just cut something off, especially if there’s a maybe an investor has a perspective. That’s right. That the entrepreneur doesn’t and says that or the other way around or the entrepreneur or the investors really want the entrepreneur to keep trying and giving, potentially providing more funding. And the entrepreneur knows it’s like, well, I guess I could, but it’s really just not going to work. I think that’s the biggest thing that I would love to see. Just more conversation about more honest rigor on both sides to try to address more specifically to the investor. I think the brutal honesty for investors is to just truly recognize where they have expertize to deploy capital and where they don’t. And that heart is great. But I did some angel investing before becoming a C, and there’s a big difference between investing as a hobby and investing as a profession. And, hey, look, it’s great to have hobbies and it can bust a lot of people with your hobbies. And we’ll talk about snowboarding in a minute. But yeah, I think to really be honest, OK, I invest because it’s a hobby. I have these objectives. And to recognize that there can be some danger as someone who deploys capital as a hobby for the companies you’re investing in. So those are some of the things that come to mind.

Luke Roush: So maybe just a couple of like with our name and. Names, specific examples where you feel like you’ve done a good job to speak the truth in love, right, because there’s a relationship, particularly if there’s a lot of faith between an investor and a company. Right. There’s a desire to kind of love them. Well, even when you’re telling them something that they don’t want to hear, any specific examples from your own experience, maybe just encourages with.

Ben Chelf: Yeah, look, we ended up kind of doing an asset sale of my second company, which from a financial standpoint wasn’t a home run that everybody was hoping for. And I think that’s an example where not to toot my own horn, but I think we did that well. We tried a number of different things, always in conversation with the investors. When my co-founder and I when we decided to wrap it up, it was a mutual decision between the two of us. Obviously, the staff was very sad. It was a very hard couple of months to do all of that and to end it as well as we could end. And then in the conversations with the investors, you know, obviously we’ve been keeping them appraised of everything through the years. And, you know, one of the key angel investors, when I asked him about it as we were wrapping up, after I kind of told him and look, I think it’s time to call it, he said, Ben, you tried everything you said you were going to try. You worked really hard at this for years and it didn’t work. I’m satisfied. Like you lost money and this wasn’t a Christian guy. So I think that’s kind of what I’m talking about is just that critical eye towards things. And, yeah, it’s not easy to do that. It’s harder, but it seems like the right thing to do.

Henry Kaestner: And as we come to a close here, I do want to hit on just a couple other things. One is the concept of Sabbath. And so, yes, we talked about snowboarding. Talk to us about seasons of Sabbath. Talk to us about what it looks like for somebody to worship their work. And just reflections on work versus Sabbath.

Ben Chelf: Yeah, I’m pro Sabbath. I think you took an incredible Sabbath Sabbath that I wish I was getting somewhere along the way. Yeah. So when I left my first company, I knew that I needed a break and not just I take a couple of weeks in Hawaii and then you’re better.

And so there is a whole confluence of things with respect to my girlfriend now wife that led to actually just having this time where I could be away. But I decided to move to the mountains, so I moved up to Tahoe for a winter. I’d snowboard for exactly one weekend in my entire life before I did this, but I decided I’m going to actually learn to snowboard. I’m a serial hobbyist. I love picking up hobbies and learning new things.

And so that winter, I just decided I’m going to spend three or four months learning to snowboard. I thought that was the primary goal of that time. But in reality, the primary goal of that time was for me to really connect with God in a much deeper and wonderfully holistic way, which was kind of born about I’m going back to honesty, me being really honest with God and airing some things that I had been thinking about for years that I had never really voiced to him or others in terms of my own wrestling with faith and why things were the way they were.

And much of what we’re talking about today in terms of my perspective on investing and faith driven investing and why it’s a hard posture thing was born out of that time in the mountains, going to snowboard every day. And so it’s kind of funny how the Lord uses uses our own wiring, our own desires to kind of catch us in different ways and teach us different things. But yeah, so I spent I guess it was four months living up in the mountains. It was really sabbat I mean I didn’t work at all. I mean unless you count getting up and going to the mountain to snowboard and try to learn. My time was cut short by a couple of weeks when I dislocated my shoulder, taking a jump too high in the park, but otherwise it was an amazing time.

And so my own view on the Sabbath, and that’s a very long winded way of getting to that. But my own view of Sabbath is it is not one of balance. I think people will talk about balance like, OK, I want to have good balance in my life of work and rest. I don’t think that’s quite it.

I think there’s a certain intensity to seasons that require just being all in starting companies is so hard that the idea of, oh, I’m going to have two or three hours every day carved out to rest or I’m going to have a full day, a week carved out to rest. It just might not happen. I might regret saying that on a podcast, but I think looking at the balance of a month or a year or whatnot, and if you can’t identify the places where you stopped to rest, like the Lord stopped to rest after creating the universe, then something’s off. Right. And so I think for me, what that’s look like practically, it’s meant three kids. Everything is a little different now that I have a couple little kids. But pre kids, it was at least one ten day period every year where I had no outside communication, no Internet, nothing like that, completely unplugged for ten days. That was kind of the yearly rhythm for me. And from a daily rhythm standpoint, I have when the season affords. I’m a big fan of Friday night after work to Sunday afternoon after church, kind of that window being the key either unplugged time or you’re really trying to let your mind rest from other things. For me, a lot of it has to do with digital connectivity. If I’m on email or on my phone, that’s not restful. I think that’s another thing for Sabbath is you really have to figure out what is rest. A lot of people will flip on Netflix, myself included, or browse the Internet on your phone or you kind of have these rest ish things that aren’t actually rests.

So when you’re going to take the time to Sabbath, I’d say actually take it, even if it’s just going to be a few hours on a Saturday afternoon or Sunday afternoon. But yeah. So those are some thoughts.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m grateful for you. I’m grateful for what you have taught us and our listeners about our posture. It’s become really the anchor bedrock value is we talk about faith driven investing. If you’re a listener to this, it is about heart posture. Faith driven investing is not prescriptive, non presumptuous. There are all sorts of different things you can do across now, all asset classes, all different types of geographies to really have spiritual integration. And even a gospel proclamation is a part of the investments that you make. And yet it’s about our posture. It’s about getting down on your knees, as Ben did with Cam back after an exit and just saying, God, how would you have us use the resources you’ve given us for your glory? What does that look like? And you may come out of that experience. Out of that exercise. Out of that time with God and feel that you are absolutely called to invest in solar farms in the Nevada desert, and that is equally valid, of course, then somebody who wants to invest in entrepreneurs in Africa or Eastern Europe or whatever, fill in the blanks. Ultimately, it’s about an opportunity to participate in the work that God is doing the world and commune with him. And so then you early on were very helpful to get us grounded in that and speak in the movement. So thank you. One of the things the thing rather, that we like to do is we close out every episode is to ask our guests what they’re hearing from God in his word recently. How do you feel that God is speaking to you now? Maybe it’s something this morning, though. It truly doesn’t need to be. It could be over, of course, last week, over the course of last month. But what do you hear God speaking to you now?

Ben Chelf: Yeah, it’s always such a good question. I’m working on kind of a new experience for Bible reading and leave it at that. It’s still kind of under wraps and in development, but I’ve been tinkering a lot. So my desk is full of wires and gadgets and all that stuff about reading scripture. Yeah, well, you can’t tell us about it. Yeah.

Among other things, maybe in like six months when I get a kick started going, I’ll tell you about it or we’re going to look at this seriously.

Yeah, exactly.

So I’m in full on tinkering mode right now, which is fun. And again, like I said, I always have a hobby. I always have something I’m working on inside and I’m using some twenty three is kind of the text that I’m testing with a lot. So I’ve been looking at Psalm 23 every day the last couple of weeks, and in verse three there is a phrase that’s just says he restores my soul and that phrase is just kind of really resonated with me.

That is the promise. If you put your faith in God, that makes all the anxiety and the things we worry about and the world. And what a year, right? This last year with everything that’s gone on. But he restores my soul and it speaks to the brokenness. Right. We only restore things that need to be restored, that have some sort of brokenness. It speaks to the simplicity of it. And so, yeah, I’ve just been relishing those four words this week. He restores my soul.

Henry Kaestner: That is awesome. That’s very good. That’s a very good word. Look, how come we don’t have been on every week?

Ben Chelf: I think we should. I think we should, actually.

Luke Roush: So, Ben, thank you so much for taking time. Grateful for your insight. I always find your perspectives to be helpful and informed and reflective of just a lot of contemplation on your end and listening to what God is telling you. So grateful for your friendship and grateful for your insights. I think our listeners really enjoy it. Thanks, Ben.

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Welcome to Opportunity Zones 101. Today, we’re talking with Jeff Shafer, Co-Founder and CEO of CommonGood Capital and Jerome Garciano on Opportunity Zones—what they are, why they matter, and how Faith Driven Investors can approach these unique ventures as a way to integrate their faith and investing. 

If you’re familiar with Opportunity Zones, or if this is literally the first time you’ve ever heard that phrase, today’s episode is a chance to get acquainted with something that can provide value to you, the investor, and to local cities across the U.S.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

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Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the faith driven investor podcast. This is a special edition. I guess I said that for other guests, and yet that’s true every time and that we’re taking some new ground and looking at an area of investing and putting a faith driven investment lens on it. And so today we’re going to learn and together we’re gonna learn because I don’t know a lot about opportunity zones and investing, but we’re going to learn from some experts and some guys with some really interesting backgrounds have gotten to know a bit over time that have brought them into the opportunity zone space. And so we’ve got two guests. Jerome Garciano and then we also have Jeff Shafer on the line with us. Guys, thank you very much for being on the program.

Jeff Shafer: It’s great to be here.

Jerome Garciano: Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Want to start with each your backgrounds. And Jeff, we’ll start with you. Tell us a bit about how you’ve come to this space maybe weave in just a bit of your faith journey, but then most specifically, common good capital and in opportunity zones. And of course, Jerome, we’re going to do the same with you.

Jeff Shafer: Yeah, great. Well, let me take you back just a little bit and I’ll try to get through this quickly, because this is a story that could go on for a long time. But as you mentioned, I was an executive at a company called CNL, which we were leading alternative investment manager. Today, that company’s been around give or take, you know, 45, 46 years. I’m not sure. I left roughly five, six years ago. But the quick story was I was an executive there. I was a workaholic. And when I was 40s, this is almost seven years ago now. God literally and figuratively brought me to my knees through a number of circumstances. But really, it was a combination of back surgery. And so it’s a great analogy of probably where I was at. I was trying to carry too much of the weight on my own and was brought to my knees. Out of that time period, though, my wife and I started to ask the question of what does it mean to be a steward of our time, town and treasuries? And I’m sure we’ve all asked questions at different times. This one just felt like a much deeper questioning across every aspect of our life. And in that time period, a friend of mine actually came to me and from an investment opportunities here in the Orlando area, they were doing some investing in affordable housing. And I remember I was recovering from back surgery on my couch and was watching the little DVD of the video. And yes, there the investment thesis, which was very compelling. In fact, the returns were extremely compelling. But really what hit me was what that did to the residents and the communities, what that capital did without intentionality did to those communities. It lifted them up. And the residents talked about and I can still hear it in my head today. They brought me dignity. I’m excited to have people come over to my house. And so that’s what a light bulb went on for me. I’d been in traditional finance at the time for about 20 years. And we really then started to look at this whole idea of how do you align your values? How do you on your faith with your capital? Now, typically in the faith based world, at least my growing up. That’s a question I’d ask. But it always been on the giving side. And I never had really thought about it. I’m an investor capital side. So that’s really what spawned me. And then also my brother to start Amen good capital is. How do you essentially take the traditional financial world? How do you marry together with our values and our faith? And how do you make an impact? And not only in the lives of the individuals who this capital is going towards or investing in. And that’s typically what most people talk about. The part that intrigues me, even maybe not more, but equally so, is when you invest this way. What it does to the heart and psyche of the investor. So we start a common good capital with that very vision that there is these massive trends and movements that are happening. And so we essentially source due diligence. Different asset managers who do impact investing. And then we create a platform and we bring that to financial advisors so that their investors are able to access different deals. In that vein is how we came into opportunity zones well before they were out. And well before they were popular. It wasn’t that we were ahead of the curve because we had some great insight. It was the opportunity zone legislation, which I’m sure will touch on, was created for this very thing to go into now and make competitive returns, but equally important, to lift up, increase human flourishing among the community of individuals in these opportunity zones.

Henry Kaestner: OK. Thank you. Great overview. Jerome, I want to do the same with you, especially because you not only are interested in opportunity zones, but you’re just more generally interested in Christ centered community development as well. So bring us through your background, how you got here as well. And then what we’ll do is I’ll ask you each to define what are opportunity zones and help us to understand what in the world we’re talking about.

Jerome Garciano: Sure. Thank you, Henry and Justin. So, you know, I was born in Southern California. My parents are immigrants from the Philippines. It wasn’t really, you know, until college when thinking about. Career and kind of purpose, and you know how the gospel really impacts my life is where I think I you know, my faith really kind of grew. And I think a critical component of it is by calling and vocation. And I think, you know, a lot of people interested in FDI talk about all the time reflect upon that all the time.

But I feel like where God calls us to is a place where we are flourishing in the skills and the gifts that he’s given to each of us individually and as organizations and a calling to serve others and a reflection of thankfulness for the gospel and for what God has done for us and to pour that thankfulness into concrete action. So I think for me it’s a lot about creativity and bringing together skills and experiences that might not necessarily be considered critical ministries. So, for example, I am an attorney in Boston. My firm is called Robinson and Cole. I started off my legal career in doing a lot of tax work. And currently I’m doing a lot of more finance and real estate and have done almost 20 years worth of transactional work in affordable housing. And so I’ve done a lot of work in tax credits and you markets, tax credits, community development efforts generally for for profit profit making companies and developers and investors. So my whole journey has been, you know, how can those opportunities and skills and experiences be leverage for the kingdom, be leveraged for the care of the most needy? And I’ve been very blessed in terms of I mean, I do affordable housing every day. You know, that’s that’s what I do every day and have worked for a really developer that focus on that. We’re for investors that are very sophisticated and creative in terms of, you know, trying to use capital for that type of purpose. As you mentioned, I’m also involved in a group called Christian Community Development Association. So it’s a faith based network of churches and nonprofit ministries that are really trying to, you know, seek God and his kingdom in the city among the least of these among those who Jesus calls us to and very inspiring group. And I’m very privileged to be on the board of that. And so it’s talking with groups like them about programs like tax credits and opportunity zones and different types of impact investing and social enterprise to really be creative and to engage people of faith churches, you know, in all these aspects that might not necessarily come to mind as ministry, but really, in fact, I think could be more creative tools in that space.

Henry Kaestner: OK, good. Thank you. So we’ll stay with you. What is the definition of an opportunity zone, as you understand it, and help us help a lay person to get that?

Jerome Garciano: All right. So first of all, it’s a program it’s a federal program that was enacted in 2017. It’s part of the tax reform legislation. So a zone is obviously a geographic region and it’s broken by census tracts. So if you’re talking about opportunity zone, so that’s a place and it’s designated as a U.S. Census tract and that there are certain definitions around poverty and other types of demographic information about that census tract. There was also a period when the program began where certain governors and other leaders can designate which low income census tracts could be opportunity zones. And then after a few months, the Treasury actually officially selected those zones. So the zone is a place. And in order to benefit from this program, an investor has to make an investment through a qualified opportunity zone fund into that opportunity zone. So those are the basics.

Henry Kaestner: Jeff, build on that a bit for us. And also maybe give us some illustrations of some of the opportunity zones that you’ve worked in.

Jeff Shafer: Yeah. Let me just take one quick step back. I think it’s important, in addition to information, you’ve just heard the rationale for why opportunity zones were created. I think it’s helpful here that a white paper that was written in 2015 by a group called EIG, the Economic Innovation Group, and they point out three things. One is they analyzed the recovery of communities after the global financial crisis. And what they found is there’s huge dispersion in the recovery, economic coercion. Secondly, they recognize was with the markets going up. At the time and there’s been a huge stockpile of capital gains. And then the third thing they looked at is they said, hey, there, that other programs and fact, some of the programs are just what we just heard. They’re tried to help these communities out. And some had been successful, some had not been successful, but they essentially kind of put that into a blender, so to speak, and out popped this legislation. So I think it’s important to note that the whole idea was to create human flourishing and then to attract capital to those areas. They created some tax incentives for investors really accessing private capital. To me, the starting point for as you look at opportunity sounds. I think it’s important that if you want to be congruent with the rationale for why these were created, you could simply attack it just as a tax benefit, which I wouldn’t personally. I don’t give a wrong with that. But that’s not how I view it. I look at it go. How do you create human flourishing inside of these zones? And how do you also get a tax benefit from it? And by doing that, you’re creating a win win. And actually, I think there are reasons besides, you know, moral reasons or even ethical reasons why you’d want to do this. I think as soon as you start investing in upcoming zones that maybe don’t have a meaningful impact to the communities, you set yourself up for scrutiny. And you saw that early on in the program. But practically, just give some examples. And I didn’t realize we both were going to have expertize in affordable housing. That is a natural asset class that fits with inside these opportunity zones. So we personally are involved with a group that does affordable housing all across the United States. I think one thing important to note is affordable housing is just a huge need anyways. And then a lot of these developers have been developing in these opportunity zones already. They just haven’t had this extra benefit. And so I think one of the things that we looked at early on is we want to find a model that could capitalize on this capital gain structure or relief. And I can explain that here in a second. But it wasn’t just a new business model that a company goes into. And so the natural spot for us is affordable housing. It’s just there’s a fundamental need that we get in some of the stats and reasons why. I will tell you, the group that we work with has done one here in Orlando in my backyard, and I’ve actually done that with the major bank. One other thing I should note is as an investor, you need to view this as an investment and then you need to look at the tax benefit kind of as gravy. And then obviously you need to think about the impact that you want to have. There’s really two things to look at from a tax consideration standpoint. This program allows for an investor who has a capital gains for simplicity. I’m going to say it’s pretty liberal in what type of capital gain it can be. There are some nuances, but whether it’s a stock, whether it’s the sale of a house, whether it’s a business. So there are taxes. If you’d sold that asset that you don’t pay taxes, that the government is basically said if you take that capital, that whole capital gains, then have all that. But you take that capital gains and you roll it into a fund that is investing into these geographic areas, then you don’t have to pay capital gains tax on that that you normally would have until the end of 2026 and you get a step up in basis in this case. Today, it’s about a 10 percent step up in basis. So you get to defer it. And presumably of tax rates stay the same. You actually will pay less as well in 2026. That’s one component. And the second component is the money that you invest inside of the qualified opportunity zone to fund those assets. If they’re held for 10 years, which you’d want all the Putin years when those assets are sold. Then you do not pay capital gains on those assets as well. And so to extent, we want to we can go into examples of that and you’ll hear, you know, how much kind of return that should add to the investments. It is real dollars in your pocket when you do the math, assuming you buy a good investment, assuming you buy good investment.

Henry Kaestner: So talk to us about what’s the most good investments are. Jerome, illustrate an example and maybe will stay in affordable housing. Something you know of. Talk to us about specific zone specific investment and maybe one that was done in a fund, maybe one that was just done outside of one. But what were the mechanics of it?

Jerome Garciano: Yeah, so our fund that I’m a part of has been involved in a couple of transactions. They were last year. One was affordable housing in New York. So in that instance, there was an investor who had a capital gain. It was a financial institution, and they worked with what they call net farm housing interest, syndicator of essentially of a broker or intermediary that matches up investors with projects, you know. And so in that case, you know, there was the typical tax benefits for an investor that would be driven by the credits. Obviously, they would still need to underwrite the project in terms of the rental income would qualify both for the housing program as well as an operating expense needs and debt service for the project. So, you know, it’s typical underwriting the tax benefit, again, was calculated really at the fund level. So it was a part of the benefit, but it was separate over and above kind of what the real estate economics were about. So certainly that was one example. The other example that we had wasn’t actually an operating business to keep in mind. Opportunities on is not just about real estate, it’s actually about operating businesses as well. And so so that was an M&A transaction. I wasn’t. Directly involved with, but my colleagues were. And so they were working with, you know, a private equity firm that acquired some assets and. And those happened to be an asylum so that they were able to get work with kind of underwriting and evaluation of the business. And then, you know, kind of a key component of that was there is a requirement that assets need to be either new assets being purchased by a qualified opportunities on business or that those assets need to be substantially improved. So, you know, there are definitely some structuring and some programmatic things that need to be laid out and everybody needs to be on the same page on that. So that was an exercise of making sure that there was in this acquisition of a business, that new assets would be placed in service, there would be substantial improvement on the property that that business had. So those are a couple examples.

Henry Kaestner: Jerome I want to stay with you. Both of you are very motivated by your faith. I’ve come to know and appreciate and love that, both of you. But, Jerome, you come out of this from the CCDA perspective, the Christian community development. What is the particular faith lens on this? Presumably at some level, of course, we’re investing in human flourishing and we’re investing in some really challenged neighborhoods. But is there a way to bring the church in? Is there a way to bring word ministry in? Is that too contrived? Talk us through that.

Jerome Garciano: I mean, I think you come at it from a couple different angles. I mean, certainly because, you know, the ease of kind of connection between real estate in place, making an opportunity zone. I mean, I think churches are already good at that. They’re good at kind of creating places and experiences that, you know, point to God and they can point to, you know, our faith. But I think it does take some creativity. I think it takes some new almost like, you know, because this concept of new wineskin for a new time and in kind of a new place of ministry and serving others, you know, for such a time as this as, you know, what we’re experiencing now.

So I feel like investing in people and relationships are at the core of everything. And one of the core tenets of the Christian community development ethos is really being with the poor and being in solidarity with kind of the struggles and the challenges and often the injustices that face those on the margins. And so I think that expresses, you know, theologically this idea of, you know, guy coming down to man and really experiencing kind of what the challenges are. And I think that reflects on even those of us who aren’t, you know, in that economic situation, like what that means and how that reminds us of kind of our need for God and hopefully thankfulness for kind of what he did for us on the cross. And so I think very deep past theological. I mean, I think there’s also, you know, very strong kind of biblical references to what it means to be just and to be equitable and to give everybody an equal opportunity. And so I think that discussion is raised in the context of kind of our Christian community development groups that, you know, kind of focus on that. I think there’s also a sense tragedy of we’re not just meeting physical needs, we’re not just meeting kind of financial needs, but we’re bringing in the gospel and what that means and how God has made us whole through Christ life, death and resurrection. And so, you know, a lot of it is also, you know, people aren’t going to hear the message until maybe you show them that you’re more interested or you’re equally as interested in kind of their practical situations and challenges that they’re facing. So I think there are a few different ways to think about it.

Henry Kaestner: Jeff, would you pile on to that?

Jeff Shafer: Yeah. So let me give you some tangible examples of where I have seen integration. It’s not necessarily an opportunity zone structure, although these assets are in opportunity zones. So we’ve come across managers in specifically affordable housing who they have a nonprofit organization that sets out the properties. And there is so management company that manage the day to day operations of it. But they almost are a dorm parent, so to speak, for the communities. And, you know, part of their ministry is fixing flat tires and being a counselor there, you know, 2:00 in the morning. And when somebody gets sick in English as a second language and then obviously embedded in that is their faith component. And so I’ve seen that model in several different ways. They other think that I’ve started to think about is from a biblical perspective. If you think about this emotional ministry, you know, are we called to be more. I don’t think it’s right or wrong. Are you called to be more evangelistic in the way that you invest? And I think that would be obviously more directly kind of faith based, at least in my mind, than you have. Is it more of a discipleship model or are you cycling coming alongside of people of faith and continuing to build their faith or even the other type of ministry that, you know, through a faith perspective we talk about? Is it more of a mercy ministry where you’re doing it in the name of the Lord, but you’re feeding the poor or whatever it is? And so I think you can use those models as framework. When you look across different types of assets and their faith integration and, you know, we not only work on the real estate side, but we also do. Private credit and private equity, and there isn’t a cookie cutter, a way to integrate it, which is part of the excitement of it, because it’s yet to use your creativity and ingenuity in each scenario and figure out how to meet whatever need that you’re trying to meet. And obviously, spiritual is a huge part of it.

Henry Kaestner: I’m intrigued by that. I love the framework that you just gave. And I think that we all, as Christ followers, need to be thinking through the different models. And we should never be prescriptive. We should never be over the top. We should definitely not force a ministry impact in this. Something that doesn’t feel genuine isn’t done with gentleness and respect. And yet it sounds like these are different investment projects that are going on in different zones where there might be a partnership with either a parish church ministry. I think that’s Jeff, what you’re talking about, but then also potentially with the local church as well. We’ve done episodes in the past where we’ve talked about what it might look like for a local church to adopt multi-family real estate and get involved there. Drome, are you seeing people within the church that are leaders of denominations or individual churches that are seen? This is something that they can get alongside and partner with?

Jerome Garciano: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, even before kind of the shutdown and the things that we’ve gone through now, I mean, you know, underutilized church property. Right. I think it depends on the different type of church or denomination. But there are opportunities to use building assets, you know, in ways that are beyond have the traditional Sunday service. And I think there were a lot of creative thinking around, you know, how do we engage the community? How do we serve and meet the needs of a community through these facilities, whether it be something that’s related to something like a community center or something that’s related to, you know, working with the children and after school programs. And so, you know, multi-family and affordable housing is definitely on the forefront. You know, I know a lot of churches that are looking to incorporate on their actual church campus or property housing. And, you know, I think even more so in the future. And let’s see, you know, how this plays out. But I feel like there’ll be a lot of opportunities to kind of rethink and reimagine kind of how these assets are used. So, you know, one group in California, in major cities that have homeless crisis, they’re looking into do some tiny home development, like on church property, you know, and the idea would be to lease some of the land to the developer so that a local church can get a little bit of income and then they would provide these homes that would be able to be, you know, occupied by people who need the affordable housing. You know, there’s certainly other partnerships in terms of, you know, parking lots that have been sold and, you know, developed into housing tax rental projects. So, you know, depends on obviously the sophistication of a local church and kind of what the development team looks like and what their overall goals are. But there are plenty of examples and opportunities to partner in that way.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. I think I’m following I think a lot of our audience is following now about the origination 2017 of this opportunity zone legislation, some of the financial benefits to investors. I want to talk next about how to get involved. If you’re listening to this either as an investor or as a service provider, maybe we’ll start as an investor. We’ll start with you, Jeff. Some listeners podcasts. I might get us this great. I can love on the poor and these challenging neighborhoods and put my investment capital to work there with flourishing. Maybe there’s an opportunity partnering with the church, but definitely motivated by my faith to see a disadvantaged neighborhood get back on par. What do I do now? Are there funds that do this? Are there individual deals? Is there a marketplace? Is there a funder? What do I do?

Jeff Shafer: Yeah. Funny as you’re asking the question, I’m like, what do you do? So a couple of things. And let me start with this and Be very practical for you. I myself have invested in an opportunity zone fund as well. And I think these are three questions that every potential investor needs to ask themselves. And depending if you can answer. Yes. And I think it makes sense to continue the dialog. You know, where do you find opportunity zones? And then really, you’ve got to also think through, do I want to go into a fund? Do I want to do a single asset deal? Do you want somebody else to manage or do you want to manage it yourself? But here are the three questions that I think are foundational. And there’s more than that. But if I just was to give you three questions you need to ask is in this order. So you have a game. You go. Do I pay tax on this gain or do I take some mosquito and roll it into an opportunity zone on? The first question is, you know, what kind of return can you generate? I think you have to view this fundamentally as an investment, because if it doesn’t perform as an investment, then ultimately you’d be better off just paying your capital gains and going elsewhere. Now, obviously, you can try to find different assets to perform at different levels and a different level of risk. But I think you need to start from. This is fundamentally an investment. That’s number one. Number two is can you hold this for 10 years? The way the rules are written to maximize all the tax benefits, you need to hold it for 10 years. It doesn’t mean that they’re. Ways and there may be some reasons why you wouldn’t hold the 10, but the blanket statement, that’s pretty solid. If you can’t hold the investment for 10 years, then you shouldn’t consider it. And the last thing is, can you get comfortable with some incremental risk that needs to be followed so that you actually get the tax benefit that you can? And if you can answer yes to those three questions, then it probably makes sense to go. All right. I want to look at this. One of the things, too, that’s unique. If you’re familiar with the 10 30 one investment, some people compare these and their similarities and differences.

But one of things I want to point out is if I had a half a million dollar gain as an example, I do not have to roll my whole half a million dollars into an opportunity zone. And at ten, thirty one, you really do. And so then you need to figure out how much you’d want to put in there. The other things you want to consider is do you go into a fund that has multiple assets in it? Or do you try to find a one off deal? You can find both out there. Some Web sites that I would at least looked at would be a Web site called AIG dot org. Another one is Noboa Graddick. There really is no great centralized place. I mean, there are some typically you are going to talk to your advisor, attorney, local real estate developers. This whole marketplaces developing in. One of the big questions is, does it continue to develop long term? And I think part of that is dependent on the regulations. And if they continue this program, which is, you know, we’ll find out. I do think they’ll given the Koban 19 and what’s happened there clearly is a renewed interest in that why opportunity zones were created. So not to predict what the government’s going to do. But man two the statement said earlier, for such a time as this, this structure could be extremely powerful tool to help rebuild America at a time when we’re going to need it. The short answer is we can help you find opportunity zones and we can get some places where you can go to Henry Antin and you can check out some Web sites as well.

Henry Kaestner: Jerome, maybe supplement that. But I also want to focus on the service provider aspect of it. Say I’m a church Amen ministry, not for profit in an opportunity zone. I can think of creative uses. Maybe it’s unused property on a church, maybe it’s unused facilities within a church building. Where do I go to take next steps and learn more so that I can get actively involved? Or maybe it’s just I’m a church and I just want to partner and just love on people through some of these new investments are coming in. What do I do?

Jerome Garciano: Sure. I saw, you know, through the CCD network, there was a group of us that started the Jubilee Impact Fund. And so Jubilee Impact Fund is trying to use the Opportunity Zone program to gather faith driven investors, other types of denominational connected investors to opportunity zones, and also trying to bring in on the debt side groups what they’re calling the community development financial institutions. Essentially, you know, lenders and banks that are focused on lower income is providing capital. So we are trying to launch this and we’re trying to partner with local churches. And so we have, you know, dozens of organizations around the country doing ministry already. And, you know, typically inner city areas and we’re having a discussion with them is how can you, you know, look at the existing initiatives and projects, incorporate things like affordable housing and things like a business incubators that could, you know, provide venture capital and other technical assistance and support to Minority and Low-Income Entrepreneurs. How can you engage the neighborhood with, you know, other types of services that could be funded through opportunities on equity? So the niche that we’re trying to make is a connection between the kind of faith driven investors, the people of faith who would be interested in opportunity zones and these initiatives on the grounds where these churches are already serving. I mean, I think that’s thing. I think the churches are already serving in these neighborhoods that are designated opportunity zones. It’s really just trying to make the connection and create, you know, the fund structure and kind of a consistent approach to capitalizing these projects. And I agree with what’s been said before. I mean, it has to make financial sense. I have to pencil out. But the idea would be, how do we creatively do that while maintaining the ministry impact as well as having the positive benefit for the community? Because I think was alluded to earlier, this program is fairly open. I mean, there are not a lot of rules and regulations, which is, you know, in some sense a nice thing, a beautiful thing, a flexible thing. But in other cases, there are no restrictions in terms of challenges like gentrification or displacement of, you know, the existing populations of the zones which actually harm these neighborhoods. So. You know, given the very flexible nature of it, there is creativity. But I think we need to be intentional in terms of what types of products we invest in and how we do that and how we engage the community for true stakeholder engagement to be able to do a successful opportunities on investment.

Henry Kaestner: Fascinating. I’m intrigued by this. I’m grateful for both of you being on the program. If you’ve turned in before, you know, one of the things that we want to make sure that we close out every one of our episodes with is asking our guest what they’re hearing from God about in his word. And it doesn’t need to be necessarily this morning through your quiet time, but maybe sometime last week or sometime recently about some way that you feel that God is speaking to you through time in the Bible. Jeff, we’ll start with you and then Jerome, close out with you.

Jeff Shafer: Yeah, well, if we want to get really personal, what God is challenging me on this question of, and it’s funny, I wasn’t planning on talking about this, but I started to write just for myself. I wrote a question and the question was, can you trust God in the midst of human suffering? And I just wanted to know obviously have Russell before, but I really want to get this on paper for my own self. And really, what is the question ultimately key and personal senses? Do I trust God? Is God a good God in the midst of all this, in the midst of just human suffering?

And I tell you, I’ve got a senior and a junior in high school, and obviously my wife and I and we have been chatting about this very question the last two or three days. And really where I want to go is is intellectually I want to have an answer. But more importantly, I want to know that my heart’s in alignment. And then the key is, am I actually living in that truth? And I got to be honest, I think intellectually I’m probably there. I think my heart is there at times. But really, what’s been challenged in me is, is am I living that out intentionally? Day to day. So now to be where I’m at this very moment.

Henry Kaestner: I think a lot of us are at that very moment. And I love the fact that you lean into that with your kids. Jerome.

Jerome Garciano: Yeah. I guess for me, you know, this almost hopefulness about kind of what is to come, because I feel like God is doing something. And obviously in the midst of very difficult times, there is always hope and we need, as Christians need to carry that and amplify that and share that with those who might not have any right now. So this idea of kind of the new wineskin and you kind of creative models and theories and programs. I feel like people are ready to be creative. And that is very refreshing. And I feel like there is such an opportunity there. So, yeah, I mean, this idea of new wine scans and how can we prepare and be humble and be creative in a time when in a lot of ways were challenging kind of the existing way we do things right. And so how does that balance in terms of, you know, a lot of ways, morning, maybe what we’ve lost and maybe things that we’ve lost permanently in terms of kind of how we gather and kind of how we worship and how we express our faith, but then also embracing kind of a new. And so for me, that definitely still attention and praying about that every day. But I also am very hopeful because I think there’s things that our God will show us and we can just live into and just be thankful for drove.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you, Jeff. Thank you. This has been great. Really appreciate you taking the time. I hope that people will look into the Jubilee Impact Fund, common good capital websites, Jeff, that you shared and put up some show notes to this as well and just appreciate the opportunity to talk to y’all about what does it look like for Chrysler to be intentional about their investment deployment and how to be wise as a serpent, innocent as a dove, be able to take advantage of tax code opportunities, to be able to take advantage of of the passion that we all have to love our neighbor and to take care of the least of these. And lots of those are in our midst and some is opportunity zones that are not very far away from us. So thank you for taking the time and for your leadership in the movement.

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If you’re not already familiar with the name Casey Crawford, then you need to be. We had him on the FDE podcast a while ago and even then, we knew he’d be back. 

Today is that day. Casey is here to talk to us about Movement Charter Schools and the work they’re doing in Opportunity Zones. As always, Casey’s enthusiasm is contagious, so we’ll let you tune in and hear for yourself.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome to the feature of an investor podcast, if you’re a fund manager, investor or financial adviser driven by your faith or want to be driven by your faith, then you’re in the right place. The best way to stay connected in the faith driven investor community is to sign up for our newsletter, Faith Driven Investor ERG. This podcast doesn’t exist without you, our community. One of the things we’ve heard the community asks for is help in finding great deals to invest in. And so we’ve launched Marketplace. It’s a new platform of funds and direct deals, everything from private equity and real estate funds to ETFs, from philanthropic to market rate deals made in the US in emerging markets. Check it out. At the age of an investor ERG for Marketplace. While you’re there, please send us any thoughts you have about how this podcast might better serve you or any questions you have about being a faith driven investor.

Host: All opinions expressed on this podcast, including your team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guest may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization or school.

Casey Crawford: It was five miles to the nearest pediatrician, so most parents don’t have transportation on public transportation. It was five miles from New York’s pediatrician and the health care system came and told us that and said, hey, if you provide a space that will staff and we could really use that. The yeah, we’ll that for ten years. And I guess we saw the opportunity for partnership in these big infrastructures, education, health care, affordable housing. When you can work collaboratively with your state and federal governments, with power institutions that be, you can actually create some really synergistic impact.

And what we’ve seen, again, with a really nice, stable investment returns where it’s sustainable and scalable.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back, everyone, to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. If you’re not already familiar with the name Casey Crawford, then you need to be. We had him on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast a while ago and even then we knew he’d be back. Today’s that day. Casey is here to talk to us about the movement, charter schools and the work they’re doing in opportunity zones. As always, Casey’s enthusiasm is contagious. So we’re just going to catch it and let him take it from here.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome to the future of an Investor podcast. We’re not supposed to have favorites and guests on any of our programs. It’s just not fair. I mean, we’ve got maybe one hundred and seventy five different episodes now across the two properties, and that’s not even counting feature of an athlete. And actually, William, I think Casey is probably the only one would be crossover between all three. Right.

William Norvell: I’ve thought about it. Yeah.

Henry Kaestner: Right now. Yeah. We’ve never spent any time talking to Casey about his athletic career at all. I mean, Super Bowl and all that stuff. And we’re not going to know either, but maybe maybe for some other episode. But what I do want to mention is that the reason why if I were to have a favorite and clearly I can’t because we have so many children as you, well, it’s not fair to pick one up, but if I were to have one, one would clearly be Casey, because last time when we got on the phone with him, we just started riffing on one of my favorite podcasts that we’ve ever done, fill fishers with sharks about identity and talks about anxiety and effectively talks about the fact that, gosh, if you’ve got high levels of anxiety, maybe that’s a chance to really look at where your identity is. And Phil did such a good job of unpacking that. There’s a five minute segment there on Identi, maybe my favorite five minutes of any podcasts. And when we start off last time, Casey, I think appropriately said, dude, I liked it. I think I really liked it. But still, there’s some part of it just doesn’t resonate with me. And Casey, would you say?

Casey Crawford: I think it was haunting me because I so couldn’t identify it when I feel anxious often like I feel like the Lord continues to lead me into places where I’m very anxious and very hopeful that he’s going to come down and save me from whatever you just called me to us again, want to look to scripture. I see that same story playing out time after time with these guys that, you know, lift it up as heroes in the Bible, namely Jesus, who like I mean, the night before his greatest act of work is is in the guard against. And he just stressed out and seems like pretty anxious and seems pretty troubled and seems pretty stressed and stressed as he contemplates, you know, going and laying out his life.

Obviously, you know, half and and so I just I was processing that man that the Lord, I think, oftentimes has led me to these places where in my flesh I do have a lot of stress and maybe some anxiety. And it caused me it focuses me to, you know, look back up to him.

Guy Lord, in the physical, this makes very little sense. And I’m very nervous about it. I’m very anxious about it. It’s caused me a lot of stress. Like, you know, I’m thankful that you are above all of the physical world that you put me in.

And it’s you you have you’ve called me to it. You walk and see me through whatever that may look like. And so you’re that tension man of always being stressed and stressed and called into the battle. I think that God so often does not always want to be. It’s not in the cabana, you know, relaxing under the sun. It’s in the fight. It’s in the. Is it stretching, straining kind of place and that’s, I think, where the Lords will use those places to grow and grow. My hope and faith in him, I agree completely, and I think that that was great.

Henry Kaestner: So a lot of times will suggest that people listen to both of those podcasts now. And if you’re listening to this, you’re probably a part of the faith driven investor community. This is a faith driven investor podcast. And what we’re referring to is a Faith driven entrepreneurs series, maybe one hundred and thirty 140 of them. If you take those two together, the Phil Vishwa one and the Casey Crawford one, you’ll have a great foundation. And I’m not suggesting you stop listening right now and go listeners, but you might want to later. So today, Casey is on the fate of an investor podcast. And there are two things that I want to unpack with Casey. We talked a little bit, not nearly as much as I would have liked to last time about your emphasis on mentoring, because I think that mentoring has such a play as we make investments when we come alongside an angel investment opportunity point in the life of an entrepreneur. What is mentoring look like there? I want to talk about that and then I want to talk about something I think is super cool. We’ve unpacked this a bunch of times, just you and I personally, about how you have taken investment capital and relational capital and a love and commitment for inner city Charlotte to come up with something as super innovative. And one of the hopes that I have is that listeners to this podcast will come away and say, yes, I’ve heard about some really neat funds. I can make some investments there. And maybe, yes, I’ve heard about a marketplace where I can find different angel investments.

But this kind of concept of just how do I take all that I am and what might be unique and individual that God might place on my heart. Well, that’s been your answer. You haven’t just invested in index funds. You haven’t just invested in Eventide and Praxis and Timothee funds. As cool as they are, you’ve done something really unique and innovative. And so I want to get there on this podcast interview, too. But to do things in succession, let’s bridge off of that concept I’ve introduced, which is mentoring. You have this opportunity to mentor the entrepreneurs that you’ve invested in and comes from what you do, what movement, what is it you do?

Casey Crawford: So we try to think about think words are also very important. We try to think about phrases in language that’s relevant to culture and not just to Christendom, but really to the greater culture and mortgage. We have about four thousand employees we’re able to do about one out of every fifty home finance is now in America. So we’re kind of a broad reach and really engaged, lots of different khamees, a lot of different cultures around the US and a really intentional to think about the yes that while some of us are very much living out our faith day to day, that we want to do so in a way that’s when that’s engaging the culture in the culture. I understand. So we try not to use a lot of Christian and Christian words that frankly don’t resonate with even like many millennials who are themselves Christians. So one word that I grew up with hearing was discipleship. And then you should be a disciple maker and you need to be disciple and you need to be a discipleship. And over the last decade of being a business, you have lots of young folks in our company is a loving and engaging.

And about once a day I get an email or a LinkedIn or Facebook from somebody that says, Hey, Casey, will you? None of them said discipling everyone. I’m says, will you? And typically it’s mentor me. Will you mentor me? Will you mention mean?

I think millennials very much have it right and they understand the value of mentorship and maybe even worse than we used to call it, the value of discipleship, having someone that was older, more spiritually mature, kind of helped grow us in faith and understanding of God and who he is and how he loves us. Now we interact with that. And so we came up with Citizen Movement Mentor. We absolutely want to love and value our people. And if they want to grow spiritually, we want to provide them that opportunity to do so.

And so we created a mentoring group and it really came so many things that are borne out of God convicting me of sin, of sin in my life. And we put a lot of emphasis on physical wellness and kind of like loving the whole person in our community and company. I had a really great friend who I put into it who would be in the gym together like four or five days a week for a couple of years. You transformed by. But I was watching makes some kind of crazy decisions, like crazy decisions in his life.

I did not think lined up with the faith. The man that he had told me he wanted to be, the person he was in Christ and man, the Lord convicted me. I mean, I was considered judging him Amen he’s not doing this. He’s not in this these others. And Lord said if you put into him spiritually the way you put into him physically, we wouldn’t be having any of these problems. And I was walking by our gym when that happened, and he and I worked out four or five days a week together and I said, man, if we had that kind of time investment spiritually, where we were really spiritually being minted ourselves by the word and by those, you know, gross material, our faith, I think we’d be in such a different place and he’d be in such a place.

And so right then I called my say, hey, man, we’re still great friends. And, hey, look, I love you and I want you to know that you’re like the legacy you’re leaving. Here is one of mentorship. We’re gonna have a mentorship program that is dedicated, inspired by you and my lack of faithfulness to grow our folks spirits.

And so I hired a buddy of mine who had been in ministry for like 20 years. I played football with. And so I I need some help on some adult supervision in this because I’ve never put together a mentorship program. And Steve Macfarlan came in and he became our CTO or chief pastoral officer and he wrote a 40 week curriculum that our organization is completely voluntary, all volunteer based. And we have about five hundred folks now in our organization that are actively engaged in mentor groups. And as mentor groups go on for 40 weeks, you know, it’s a really in-depth commitment of four or five members of our community to just be open and vulnerable with each other and go on a spiritual journey to grow in their faith. And some folks come into it really far from God, maybe never setting foot in a church, not really knowing what this is, who he looks like, how I can relate to him. And some folks come into these groups having walked with Jesus for a number of years and a lot and being really close in that. And it has been true. I’ve been in small groups kind of my whole life. I can tell you doing them in the workplace has been one of the most transformative, powerful things I’ve ever done in my life, because the bottom line is we can’t hide from each other at work. And we have just seen, oh, my gosh, we’ve seen incredible life transformation happen in and through our mentor groups. And honestly, we wanted to keep it small because we didn’t know we were doing it. First of all, we just like 40 or 50 people and see how this goes and kind of iterate expand. We’ve had such a hunger for people that want authentic, intimate relationships with each other. And now during covid even more so and so, the groups have really exploded, expanded with about 20 other companies now that have picked up this mentoring program and done themselves. It’s not no rocket science to it, but I think there is a beautiful nuance of doing it in the workplace that makes it easier than anything I’ve ever done in the church. In church, I see maybe once a week, maybe four, five or ten minutes before the service that we all get up and sing and listen and don’t talk and go home at work. And we have 40, 50 hours a week where we are locking arms with each other. We’re providing for our families. We’re like living out, missioning, calling, or at least just our vocational occupation together. And we have some really deep beliefs. And you can see people laugh and see him crying and when they’re hurting. And so it’s so easy then to get into those really intimate mentoring groups where you can be open, vulnerable. And if you have some great material to go through, mean we just see people grow like crazy spiritually. So one of those powerful things we’ve ever done, that’s awesome.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so I want to get back to that here in a second. And I want to unpack a little bit more about what a chief pastor officer does when he finished writing it. Figure it out. Yeah, he’s still there. Is he still working? Oh, yeah.

Casey Crawford: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s yes, he is going in a thousand directions. I mean, again, he was doing church planting time in the Redeemer Network on the West Coast. And what he would tell you is that he’s disengaging more people now than he ever did as a pastor, reaching kind of more folks are really far from God because, you know, folks in greater degrees will not darken the door of church.

They will not go into a church, but they will come into work. And he kind of jokes nice. You know, I used to beg him to come to church for an hour week and then I’d ask him to give me money because now I get him for forty hours and we’re buying them a paycheck at the end of the week. So this is a great deal.

So yeah, it’s been really, really neat journey with Stephen, what he’s been able to bring to our culture.

William Norvell: I just want to comment on that real quick, because we talk a lot about investing and we spend a lot of time talking about money. Right. Of course, on this podcast, I got such an incredible story, though, of, you know, you get the resources you had, the organization you had and decided to invest in that direction. Right. Not taking your money and putting it in. But I don’t think that’s such an interesting thing. You know, as you peel back the parable of the talents, I think a lot of people can narrowly end up talking about rate of returns and money, but God gives us so much more stewards, relationships, employees, suppliers, all of these relationships. And I just love that you took that and said, well, this is a place to invest my time and my energy and the resources.

Casey Crawford: Well, also leverage to write what you think about money and how we’re going to invest. And I know lots of folks who I will share Stephen’s salary, but it’s not like the biggest salary in the company. Something I mean, he’s kind of paid like our middle level managers. And yet we have one chief master lost and almost four thousand employees. That’s awesome. Leverage the material he puts out. You got seen. It’s up on the Web. Any one organization can access it. And now, again, over 20 other organizations, we have churches that are using this stuff. And so as I think about Kingdome stewardship of resources, I’m always thinking about leverage and what is a great use of leverage. And, you know, we’ve had corporate chaplains of Americans. Those were neat and were good. They definitely serve a cool role. But, man, we found incredible leverage in a role like this because all of our mentor groups, they’re. Volunteer, nobody’s paid to lead a mentor like no one goes to church because, oh man, William, I’ll pay you X dollars to lead your small group. That’s not how it works. So, yeah, it’s been a great investment to your point and a great use of leverage and scale.

William Norvell: It’s amazing to think about that. And I know you’re telling us, right. Probably jumped on about the first day of school. First day of school. Yeah. Yeah. I got to hear about this. So you’ve also leveraged this into movement charter schools. Tell us. I came about where that is.

Casey Crawford: So, you know, we were founded really as a mortgage company in a bank. And when we got to do that and really my vision, you know, seven or eight banks had been at the epicenter of the greatest really acts of financial violence perpetrated against the world in decades. And I mean, they were known for a lot of darkness, a lot of greed, a lot of destruction in our nation and even reverberating around the world. What really convicted me on was like, hey, what would it look like if a bank actually became known for how it loved and serve the marginalized? Know how a bank. Yes, maybe the wealthiest of those are able to afford homes, were able to even have bank accounts, but they took the profits and reinvested it to transform the experience of the marginalized. Maybe those who weren’t customers maybe would never be customers. And I got really expensive. Man, that would be a cool, cool story. Lord, I would actually love to be a part of that. That sounds like something like you would do it. It sounded insane. Crazy. There’s a whole law deal with that. But part of that call did we kind of stepped into this was like kind of like to go into land. I will show you something that sounds exciting. But how how how am I going to take resources and reinvest them in ways to see your kingdom come and love the marginalized? And that’s a tough question to wrestle with an answer. And I talked about that with Aton. I’m sure lots of listeners grapple with that, how to steward these resources. And I mean, I think all of us that are followers of Jesus are going to say, hey, first and foremost, look, if the Lord calls you to something that’s like kind of a do not pass go, don’t you know where to go do that? Thankfully, I think with my background in football, I didn’t have the brains and some of you all do to really deftly kind of evaluate all these different investment options and how we’re going to do these cool ways to just kind of gave me some stuff. And the first thing you gave me was this concept of a charter school. And a woman had written her doctoral thesis on why Christian schools, the only inner city serving the report. Four pages later, I’m going to save you the reading. They run out of money. We run out of money. At some point, they run out of money. Christian schools work really well. The wealthy suburbs where parents have the means to afford them. When they’re serving the poor, they run out of money. But there is a new structure. This is like fifteen years ago. It’s called a public charter and it’s a faith based, not for profit, buys a building, buys real estate, leases it back to a public charter. The faith based not for profit can own the building control. What goes on in that building? Twenty four hours a day. Seven days a week. The return on the investment can be created by the lease with that public charter school, the public charter, to faithfully secular curriculum. If kids want to come in at eight and leave it to no problem, they will do so. However, you can offer faith based wraparound services in that same building that the school occupies before school, after school and on weekends. And I read that thesis and it was like a lightning bolt that went through me. I understood it. I got leverage, I got scale. I understood real estate. I knew that, hey, we’re in the business of financing homes. The first question people ask, what are the schools like with the schools? Like when you bring world class education to a neighborhood, you actually lift the entire neighborhood, you bring all the property values up. And we were Amen, you know, churches these days are kind of starting to understand that like a 20 million dollar building to be used three hours a week, not the greatest use of investment leverage and scale. And so, I mean, why not occupy another space that had a really redemptive purpose to it for the other six days of the week? Right. And so we kind of imagined that we could bring churches in to come and to leverage space for multiple uses, create a return on the real estate investment. So lift the neighborhood, have this wraparound redemptive purpose and provide this incredibly needed service to children in America of education. And so that was the vision. And it was, man, it was big and scary because this is when we were teeny. We had five, ten employees and was one man. But it seems like those are 10 or 20 million. How are we ever for this? Do it so many questions. And so yet, I guess it’s ten years later now we’re opening up our fourth school and today is our first day of school. So we just welcome four hundred new, bright, smiling faces onto our brand new elementary school. It’s kindergarten and first grade on the east side town in the middle of covid. And we are so incredibly blessed because every kid is suffering a little bit with their lives, have changed a little bit, but by far the most impacted or the most marginalized if you’re living at or below the poverty line, covid has devastated a lot of things in your world. About two thirds of our kids in school get their meals at the school, so we serve breakfast and lunch at the school. And for many mothers, the meals they count on every day. And so we’re literally we’re balancing two. We have our kids come in in person and be able to eat or do we risk exposure to this infectious disease. And so we have an incredibly courageous group of teachers and administrators who have an amazing church partner who built a big, beautiful church in there. And yet we welcomed in our kids for the first day of school, a brand new school. We have two others that are up and running already. The new one was today. So we’re thrilled to be in this business and thrilled with God has done it and through it.

Henry Kaestner: That’s amazing. That’s just a beautiful story. By the way. I love the fact that William and I are ascribed to being deft evaluators. I think I’m trusting you, man. I’m. Oh, yeah. Amen. Yes. No, thank you. That’s right. Maybe I should just own it. No, that’s definitely William is one of those one of the things that is really just trying to put myself in the shoes of some listeners right now who are saying, that sounds awesome.

Henry Kaestner: You’re suggesting that I can go ahead and I can take some investment capital and I can do a partnership with a public charter school. I can get a return on my investment by leasing the facility out. I can control some level of the of integration. And with that, I can do some amount of partnership with the local church. Sounds like you do that with local health clinics, et cetera. I don’t know if I have the same and maybe I shouldn’t say that. Same background, same resource.

Maybe they do just want to make it back. And I can assure you of that. That provides some great resources to go do this, no doubt about that. But you couldn’t have a less qualified background. I had there’s no teacher in my history that would have put money on me opening the school.

William Norvell: Well, what I love to I mean, I think this is such a big thing. I don’t think you’ve talked about this in the podcast. Right. I mean, I also hear in your story, I mean, you’ve got this vision, if you will, a long time ago. And one of my favorite quotes, I think it’s a tribute to Bill Gates is always most people overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what they can do in ten. And mean when you’re talking about that is investment, that is leverage. That is like watching something grow compounded interest every single day, working on it, making it a little bit better. Of course, I have to talk a bit about football. But, you know, Nick Saban, they don’t strategy is tee shirt for like years when he got there, was outworked yesterday. You know, it was just like to do a little bit better, just do a little bit better. And by that twelfth game, we’re going to not be tired in the fourth quarter. And I hear that it’s like, yeah, I didn’t do this all tomorrow. I didn’t have ten million dollars. When I set out on this journey, I took a step and and ten years later, I couldn’t even imagine what it would be. And it’s bigger than I even thought. And the Holy Spirit.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. William, I think you hit on that really well with a great quote about overestimating the one year underestimating the ten year walk back through some of the details about how you got started. So I’m listening to this right now. I’m an investor. I’m in Milwaukee. I’m like, oh, my goodness. Of course, that’s a no brainer. It’s education, it’s health care, it’s the church. It’s all those different things. And I think maybe I know some different people to do it. But what was it? You did so some of the particulars, for instance, you know, it’s old big box and old came out, right?

Yes, yes. The real estate first, right?

Casey Crawford: That’s right. I mean, to billions when we start small, we had this big vision, was committed to it, but then started looking sort of survey research like you would in any investment register to understand who are the good operators in the space and how do we want to emulate these folks and could they make the numbers work and what that look like?

And I was blessed to find a model right in my backyard in Charlotte, North Carolina, that was making the numbers work. They were getting no outside investment. They had ninety five percent of kids were minority. Ninety five percent of kids were at or below poverty line. And they were having three hundred percent better academic performance than their demographic peers. And they were doing it at a surplus every year. So that surplus and they were paying down five percent. Note on that facility, too, because they got no investors and they said taken out a loan. And so I kind of looked at them well, and they’re actually if I kind of strip this out without thinking about any appreciation, they’re creating like a six and a half, seven percent cash on cash return right now, serving twelve hundred kids in an incredibly redemptive way. And that’s kind of like that whole picture to me was a great return. When I think about the six and eight percent, I think about the stability, I think about the fact that it’s really underpinned by federal and state dollars ought to do is attract the kids and educate them well is doing something for sure, but that’s a pretty predictable source of income. I like the underline credit. Right. I kind of think and then think about wow.

And now I get to Steward a thousand lives for 12 years and pour into these kids because we educate our kids year round because they need that to catch up. And I get the point of all year for 12 years when we can actually start to change the trajectory of lives. And here’s what gets really exciting to me when I looked at it. This is a big pull to plan. And if we can actually raise the bar with our schools, we can raise the bar for every school because the market chases excellence.

And so there are a hundred and some odd schools in Charlotte. I don’t have to own and build one hundred some odd schools is the kind of tipping point concept. If I build 10 that are having three hundred percent better academic performance than the rest, I believe we now have a platform from which to speak. By the way we build our schools. About a third of the cost of the traditional public schools are built. So we’re already having architects come and go. We you built that house. What, your cost per square foot. What? Because we share a parking lot with a 70 million dollar elementary school. We just opened up our lives. When we’re 70, it’s going to house the same number of kids. And so already we’re starting to affect and impact the way school is done just by setting a new standard of excellence.

So when I look at the capital return, the spiritual return and then the reverberating impact, the leverage that excellence creates in a massive space like education, public education, for me it was just easy, no brainer stuff of where to allocate resources.

Henry Kaestner: So what are you going to do with that from here? What’s it look like? You’ve got a playbook. Are you sharing it with others? Are you going to run?

Oh, gosh, we have zero secrets and we’re learning as we go. So our plan is through ten schools in Charlotte.

We think if and when we do ten, we’re having two or three hundred percent better academic performance than our demographic peers.

We’re doing it, by the way, for only 70 percent of the dollar. So the traditional public schools will get almost twelve thousand bucks per kid. We only get eight. So we’re doing we’re actually saving the state money on every single child we educate and doing it two or three hundred percent higher rate of academic performance, and then we’re making it a sustainable investment. And, you know, we didn’t talk about this much, but we’ve also partnered with our health care providers to carve out pieces of our school to bring health care to serve the urban poor. It is a major problem right now is being a big shift in Medicaid. And so we go, gosh, we already have this space. It doesn’t cost us that much to carve out twelve hundred square feet, 30, 600 square feet and bring world class doctors and physicians into the neighborhood to kids that otherwise have a tough time getting to our first school, it was five miles to the nearest pediatrician. So most of our parents don’t have transportation on public transportation. It was five miles from new the pediatrician and the health care system came and told us that and said, hey, if you provide a space that will staff and we could really use that. The idea was that for 10 years and I guess we saw the opportunity for partnership in these big infrastructures education, health care, affordable housing. When you can work collaboratively with your state and federal governments, with power institutions that be, you can actually create some really synergistic impact. And what we’ve seen, again, with a really nice, stable investment return where it’s sustainable and scalable.

And that was our real hope, Henries, that we could build these redemptive projects in such a way that they could attract major investment capital because we know the is going to allow us to do it. We’ve been able to invest about one hundred million dollars and we’re thrilled with that. And we might be another 50 million this year. We’re thrilled with that.

But this is a massive problem that way outstrips our balance sheet, whatever that might ever look like. And we’re going to need to attract capital to some of these problems. So we kind of our thesis was made if we build these in a way, they can create a four, six, seven percent return in a really collaborative, synergistic way. We can attract some major institutional capital that might just like the return. I mean, you go by CBS for a lower cap rate than that. So we go, hey, if we can do this and have major, major impact, it’s a scaled amplify lever that we can pull in the marketplace.

William Norvell: So it’s super compelling. What do you think are the barriers to seeing this scale? At one point, I guess you get to 10 schools and then maybe does the governor said there are charter networks out there that have gone pretty fast.

Casey Crawford: Like one hundred know there’s some great ones out in Texas that go like one hundred two hundred maybe. And that’s great. So we’re that’s what we’re on track to do.

William Norvell: I’ve done that with the faith integration, though. Have they done that with their partnership with health care?

Casey Crawford: No. But you know what? They’ve blazed the trail, right?

Like there was no one that had done one hundred networks when they started. So that was kind of their battle. How do we scale this to one hundred? Two hundred? And they’ve given us a roadmap for how to go do that with kind of scaling of the leadership. So now we’re just adding a few elements, right? We’re adding it. I mean, I would say they’re really critical because the faith can be a critical and integral one. But we John Machel’s right in our leadership curriculum for our kids right now. So we’re going to have like kind of Maxwells sort of five leadership academies where kids are going to get all his stuff growing up for 12 years in our life. And we’re teaching the kind of values we have an after school program that we kind of developed with the faith centered after school program that’s against totally voluntary. No one has to be leveraging the faith based programs they don’t want to. And then the integration with the different health providers is stuff that we’re learning as we go. We stole that idea from Ben Novarro down in South Carolina who worked with a South Carolina hospital system to bring health care in his school. So, yeah, we’re trying to add kind of our own contributions to the movement as we move along.

William Norvell: He’s one of the things I’m struck by when I hear your story. As you mentioned, Charlotte, that’s where your company is. Obviously, your your company has employees other places as well. But that’s kind of your hub. And you explain in your story, right, of God working three, working out with a buddy and convicting you of something else that sort of sponsors and moves into something else. And I’ve heard you tell stories before and you’re so good at it. That’s why we love having you on God’s giving you that gift. I’m really interested in how you encourage people in investing specifically to think through their story. Right. What God has put in front of them, because I think it can be overwhelming sometimes you can listen to a podcast.

Yes, I need to integrate my faith of my investing. Like, what does that mean, sell all my stocks? Like, put it into something good, take it out. I realize I mean, you’ve mentioned two or three huge concepts. Right. But like, they’re unique to you. And that’s exciting to me that I don’t think that story gets told a ton is it doesn’t happen. And it’s great to piggyback on other things sometimes. Yeah. But other times for you, like.

Casey Crawford: Yeah, right. Right. I am. We do. And I do love to piggyback and love to amplify. The great work that I feel like I’ve got is others too. We’re getting to do a little bit more of that now, which is amazing. I’ll tell you, a part of our story is fascinating. And again, I didn’t grow up doing that a whole lot, afraid of what or whatever, didn’t spend a lot of time fast and growing up. But man, the Lord Rusty in season right now, a company like everyone, a mentor said, hey, man, I’d love for you all to join the other Muslims fast and pray together because they were in such a season right now of it’s kind of overwhelming. Let’s make more business than we could imagine because the federal government is using the mortgage industry to subsidize credit across the United States. So every mortgage companies just have a. They can imagine a stimulus that appropriate for like is this really bad history of God’s people when they received their blessing giving it. And so we fast and pray. And I would say you even the to start the company was a time of fasting and praying and then in working and thinking about how am I supposed to reinvest redemptive Lee and, you know, kind of understand what this look like, redemptive banquets that mean to look like and may God has been faithful every time to kind of bring the right and next project to us. And I know that’s not everybody’s story. And I hope it’s not a frustrating answer for some folks. I can hear folks going, I’ve certainly been a great man. God didn’t drop in front of me. This answer the first I say, I mean, just being honest with yourself, did you really spend some time fasting prayer over it and really seeking in that that he would like? Because I’ve certainly sometimes gotten frustrated while Lord, you direct me and then good friends that love me would convict me that process again. So I’d really move fast and pray over your investments the way you would over any other decision that you’re really wrestling with in life, because I think it’s precious. That resource that he’s entrusted us with is so precious and there’s so much potential wrapped in those resources. I don’t think his believers were called to invest like the rest of the world.

And we really, I think, better be thinking about that maximum Kingdome impact that that treasure is going to have is maybe sometimes that an alpha return or whatever, but great. But it’s so that I can take that return and do something internal with it. Right. It’s always got to have some kind of internal purpose to the investment. So, yeah, that’s always been our hard that’s been our story and it’s kind of God’s to test me in this game. It’s not the type concept, but like I would just say testing and test and testing this really cecum bass, Craig and Resler beg him to show you what to do next. And then if he let you down, email case you your movement dotcom and I’ll I’ll go talk to him.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. Yeah. So this has been awesome. A whole bunch of different things and a whole bunch of different things I want to talk about next time. I think we’ve already established fact there’s an opportunity to talk about your story as an athlete and how this all works in as well with this new property we’ve got. But we need that next time. And just grateful for your partnership. One thing that we always like to do in cash, I’m still on something from Williams script, so I’m going to hand it actually right back to William. William, what’s the one thing we want to ask of all of our guests?

William Norvell: I’m going to say that’s all I get guaranteed to me. I can’t believe you’re going to steal my heart. Do that. You can’t do that. Like, say, hey, we’re going to send the kicker out. But sorry, but this time we’re going to let the quarterback take that one, too. He just he’s been warming up. He looked good in warmups. We’re going to let him take this. It’s just an extra point. It’s just an extra point. You know, what’s the point we love and you just fasting and pray.

Gosh, really love you pointing us back to that. And I love your urge to gently. Have you really done it? You know, but with that, what we do love to close with, we love to watch exactly what you’re talking about in weird ways, how our guest and our listeners get linked together through the word of God. It’s amazing when we hear the stories of, wow, I just really needed that word from the Lord. And while your other words were fantastic and we want to hear what God may be doing through your life, through his word right now, that could be the season. It could be today, it could be months, maybe something you’ve been meditating on or something God divinely gives you right now in the scripture to tell our listeners, well, I’ll go.

Casey Crawford: Just two hours ago, we had our mentoring phone call and there’s a number of us that are kind of taking Mondays to fast and bread. And Steven failed that test. Will also I mentioned to is leading us through. OK, so we were Daniel for like, it’s never gonna happen his dream. And he’s asking Daniel, what does this dream mean?

And Daniel’s basically down payment. You’re full of pride. You take in all God’s glory. And he is about to humble you, buddy, in a big way and never assume here will not doesn’t have ears to hear.

He’s being told like humble yourself doesn’t have to hear. He’s going to keep taking guts. Glory. That was today of Suku processing that with community. And we talk about the mentoring group and the importance of the community in the workplace, a crisis in our community and how God uses that. And so I’ll share with the guys today that my first ever play in the NFL first ever play.

Maybe we’ll touch this the next with him first ever play kick off the ball game on kickoff return on the way, if you remember the way only do to allow you to do this anymore, just like human cannon fodder. I just run back and throw yourself into the other day.

Sorry, I’m on the wedge and I’m running up to protect our ball carrier and I just smash into this like human fire hydrant.

And when I hit them like everything’s black for a minute and I kind of woke up and shook my hands and like, instinctively grabbed his shoulder pads and ran, ran, ran and whistle goes, that’s all kind of off me.

And I mean, I was, you know, when you were playing, I was on I looked down on my shirt and a white jersey and he’s just covered just a big red bloody mess all over my jersey.

And now, mind you, he had just about knocked. Me out, turns out here broken my nose, not both snaps off of my chin strap first. I was so arrogant football player I shoved him looking at you bleeding all over me.

William Norvell: He says those exact words, the arrogance piece of that sorry.

Casey Crawford: I guess that is one area where I leave and now I run to the sidelines, of course.

And the train, which he’s made your nose broken. You’re an asshole to me, man. Sometimes in life don’t we just need a community to look at us and tell us how you got a problem?

Hey, you never, never needed it. You couldn’t hear it from there. My dad was like, Anchorman, you got a problem. It’s all over. We all see it bleed all over you.

You’re full of pride, you feel, and God would stop it. And then the beauty of a crisis to me in the workplace, I think, is that we have those other brothers and sisters that can come around us like let and know we got a mess. I right. We’ll take care of and clean up. And that’s been the greatest gift I’m sitting in. I was almost in tears looking like 40. My teammates were just coming alongside the fast and the crying to see the Lord encourage each other and challenge each other and make sure that we are being humble and given God all the way.

That is his and his alone only he deserves that. None of us rob from that. And I need that in my life. And I think what God really revealed to me is just the power of that in the workplace.

Man, when we can have brothers and sisters in Christ, the workplace is weird and 40, 50, 60 hours a week with and they’re point things like that. That is an incredible, incredible gift.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed. Indeed, it’s a great word always says Casey Yurok, thank you for being our friend and our partner in the overall mission and really going to be fascinating to follow what you do over the next year. I think that you are an exception maybe to what Bill Gates has said. I think that you’ll be able to get those things done. And if there’s anything we do to help you to get that and then have you back on the show, if you have, God might use you to not only transform the mortgage industry as he’s done through you, as you’re intentional about giving him the glory, if he might use you.

And some of those that I know that are friends and partners with you on the real estate side to do the same thing with real estate investing in education investing, that’d be an amazing, amazing thing. So continue to want to watch your story. Grateful for you. Thank you, brother.

Casey Crawford: I love you guys. Honored to be on here. Man, it is so much fun. Just walk this out with you guys. So glad we got connected.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you so much for joining us on today’s show. We’re very, very grateful for the opportunity to serve the larger faith driven investor community. Hey, the best way for you to stay connected is to sign up for our monthly newsletter at faith driven investor Doug. And while you’re there, we, of course, want to hear from you. We derive great joy from interacting with many of you. And it’s been very rewarding to see people join the discussion now from all around the world. But it’s also very important to us that you feel like this is your show and that you’ll help make it something that best equips you on your journey, one that you’re proud of and one that you’ll share with others.

This podcast, it wouldn’t be possible without the help from many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Forman, program director Johnny Will’s music by Carl. Well, you can see and hear more of his work at Summer Drugstore.com and Audio and editing by Richard Bahle of Cornerstone Church in San Francisco.

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Today, we’re talking about playing the long game. So many investors work to get as big of a return as they can as quickly as they can. But the two people on the show have a different approach. 

John Denniston and Tom Blaisdell are our resident experts on long-term capital, and today, they’re going to break down the benefits of patient investing, the discipleship opportunities it provides, and how all of this relates to you, the Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the fate of an investor podcast, great episode today we’ve got two awesome guests to help us to understand the concept of permanent capital. And we live in Silicon Valley, which is really the capital of venture capital, if not more broadly, private equity. And it’s interesting that we’re going to be looking at this topic today with two guys that really come from a background of venture capital at the very highest levels, talking to us about a new model that we really all think might transcend the 10 year lifecycle of a fund, as Henry mentioned.

William Norvell: A big thing we want to dig into is you both have a lot of experience in capital raising, both as entrepreneurs and as venture capitalist, as a lawyer, as an investment banker. I mean, I personally think you really redeemed yourself. I mean, going from law investment banking. I mean, that’s where, you know, the magic happens. I know people see them and much, much better light. I like the journey you’ve taken here now, but this permanent capital idea. Walk us through it. What is it? Where does it come from? Is it something brand new? Is something that’s old that people are finding again? What is the essence of it and why are you too fascinated by it? Well, I can start with that.

Tom Blaisdell: I got fascinated by it when I was doing this research up at Tuck and they came at it from two different angles. One was clearly the returns angle. I was always been a big fan of Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger and what they’d been doing, a Berkshire Hathaway, and they had, you know, their famous saying, know, our favorite holding period is forever. And they had this holding company, which is in essence a permanent capital structure for the companies that they’re buying that give them lots of leeway to pursue their growth strategies and their missions individually as well. I also took it from the point of view of the entrepreneur, though, and that’s really where I thought I saw the whole and the market was, as I said, look, I want to get more involved in mission driven entrepreneurs. You know, a mission driven on tour is on a mission. Most of the investors out there that they’re going to pair up with are on a mission to make more money. And this might be a good time to talk about a really important differentiation I make between investors and what I call capital allocators and thinking. I think all the people who are listening to this podcast should be recasting in their mind, thinking to themselves as a capital allocator as opposed to an investor. And the simple differentiation is an investor. Invest money to make more money. That’s what their job is. A capital allocator. Their job is to allocate capital to worthy endeavors while respecting and honoring the value of the capital. Capital is not free. Capital has costs. It has to be respected. That’s what the parable of talents is about. But the capital needs to be allocated to what I would consider you would consider the individual investor a worthy cause. So if you’re thinking of your job as being a steward to the capital entrusted to you, that means being a trustworthy allocator of capital, not just an investor. And I just want to say this is an extra degree of difficulty. Being a good investor is very hard. Being responsible allocator of capital is even harder. Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger had this concept, the too hard pile. Generally, it’s a good idea. Keeps you focused on your specific giftedness or your core competencies. But within your circle of competence, you need to be responsible in what you’re investing in. And one thing I want a big takeaway from this podcast to be is don’t put values align investing in the too hard pile. This is important. This is worth doing. And, you know, John can talk more about how he made that transition to taking that out of the too hard pile and putting it into action of going from an investor to actually starting a business like that.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to get into that a bit and actually dystrophin on what William was just talking about in terms of career progression. John had I think about that T-shirt which talks about the evolution of man. So it starts off life as an attorney, then investment banker and then venture capitalist being a higher form of life and now maybe the highest form of life, being a missional entrepreneur in a permanent capital type of structure. Maybe we might even get some feedback from the audiences, what they think that makes sense or not, or if there’s a next progression in the in the evolution. But I actually really like the way that that’s gone in in that it connotes that there are some aspects of venture capital or private equity that may have some limitations to it. So maybe it can deal with Tom and and Jon. I’d love to get your comments on this, too, when we talk about permanent capital. And I think that I’m glad that you brought Berkshire Hathaway. It’s a model that a lot of people can be comfortable with and familiar with. But what are some of the inherent limitations to the traditional private equity and venture capital model that maybe permeate capital solves for.

Tom Blaisdell: Absolutely. Yeah, first and foremost. Traditionally, all venture capital funds are private equity funds have a 10 year structure, which is, you know, they raise a fun one hundred million dollars, a billion dollars, 10 billion dollars for the big P funds, and that as a 10 year life. And normally they’re going to invest, make new investments in the first three years and then spend the next seven years harvesting those investments. And so a typical model for a private equity investment, for example, is they want three to five backs in three to five years. So they want to put. Money end. They went to work it for three to five years and they want to get the money out. Similarly, on the venture capital side, especially the early stage folks coming into the series A, Series B, we know that out there, the time period from initial investment to liquidity event, which is either getting an M&A getting bought out or an IPO has been extending from, you know, typically used to be five years, seven years, 10 years, 12 years. And we know that’s getting longer and longer. But those are the first two constraints just built in to the venture capital. Private equity models is that 10 year fund life now immediately put that up against the perspective of the Michigan entrepreneur who is building a multi decade or maybe even a multigenerational business to attack a problem that’s very important to them.

You know, what that means is you’re going to have to recapitalize their business every three to five years that they’re using private equity or every seven to 10 years if they’re using venture capital money. And I’m not saying that that model is broken. That’s a terrific model that’s created tons of creative power and financial success for venture capital and private equity. The whole I saw in the market was these longer term thinking mission driven on tourism. I’ll just take one more moment to talk about, you know, there isn’t every entrepreneur mission driven. Sure. They all say, oh, here, here’s our mission. We got our mission. We’ve got a vision. I have to test for what’s my definition of a mission driven entrepreneur. The first question is, and this isn’t I don’t sort of ask this, but it’s what comes out in a conversation. And as you ask what they’re doing right now. And you’re gonna get two answers read and get some that essentially you talk to the CEO of a startup, ABC, or private equity backed startup. They’re either going to need a description that says, this is my current gig. This is what I’m working on right now. And if you talk to mission driven entrepreneur, they’re gonna be telling you about their life’s passion, their life’s work. They wouldn’t know what they would be doing if they weren’t doing this. That’s question number one. Question number two is. And this is more perhaps from the investor’s point of view, but also a lot of funds from the private equity CEO’s point of view is always begin with the exit in mind. I never make an investment if I don’t know what the X is going to look like on the other end. When you’re talking to a mission, you’re an entrepreneur. They say, what’s an exit? We’re not exiting. We’re solving a problem. This is our mission. This is our cause. This is what we’re here to do. And so now you have these mission driven operators that are fundamentally different than the other entrepreneurs. And now if you take a traditional again, let’s go back to that venture capital model. So now you go out, you raise your share easy. And all these people, you need growth, growth, growth, growth, growth.

You raise your series A. Then your series B, then you need your series C, then you need your series D.

It’s hard to find the money in each round. Now find people that have values alignment in each of those rounds. Or even just financial incentive alignment. In each round in terms of what their timeframe is, et cetera. Keeping that alignment, this is almost more than just about the permanent capital. It’s about the alignment of the capital. And that just becomes increasingly impossible in that traditional venture model. And then private equity model, it’s essentially we have a mission for three to five years. We don’t have a mission for 20 or 30 years. We have a mission for thirty five years. And that’s do just start right out of the gate with some serious alignment problems.

Henry Kaestner: John, you’ve been on all sorts of different angles on this from the venture capital world, more permanent capital entrepreneur. How would you respond to permanent capital and make the case for that as something that really helps support mission?

John Denniston: We imagine somebody gives you a choice, an immediate payment of one million dollars or a magic penny that doubles every day for 30 days. Tell me, which do you choose?

Cash upfront, million dollars. I bet you the answer is number two. OK. That is correct. Would you hazard a guess? You can’t put your calculator right now. I’m watching you. Yeah.

OK. If you got a penny at a doubled every day for 30 days, what is in your bank account at day 30?

Henry Kaestner: Tell me what can be more than a million dollars? We know that many of the owners say it’s going to be a big number. Go with three point seven form billion dollars.

John Denniston: Man, are you smart that rounds to the five million dollars that it is, OK. That’s the idea in our minds.

Deusen. Is it five million or five Divino I hinders that billion. OK. I don’t know.

William Norvell: I think I now know we have a recording Henders a billion here. Smart enough to the right answer. But math, you know, still working on it.

John Denniston: Henry thinks big everything specked. The answer is five million dollars. Five million dollars. OK. That is an astonishing phenomenon. It’s wonderful. So wonderful that Albert Einstein called that compounding the eighth wonder of the world. Now, that’s the idea. And so who knows? Ten year convention came in to the private equity and venture capital world, I imagine, in my mind’s eye. The early funds, they find some investors categories that don’t even exist today. And the investor said, well, certainly I’ll get my money back. And so the people raised in the voice, OK, well, 10 years will give your money back. I mean, something like. But there’s no rhyme or reason. Here’s what it does from perspective of Eighth Wonder of the World. It interrupts it. Imagine that you take your penny and 10 days in the compounding stops or slows down for a while, or you don’t get the full 10 days amount because there’s a fee that you pay somebody and then you have to find a reinvestment. And by the way, you’re doubling with the penny that you had. And what you’re reinvested in is not doubling. It’s five percent growth every year. So from a financial perspective, there is a permanent capital movement taking place right now and there’s a lot of the big money coming into it. Blackstone has raised hundreds of billions of dollars on this Apollo. I think roughly half of their assets under management are in roughly the category of permanent capital. Last week, KKR and our private equity firm bought an insurance company. That’s how Berkshire Hathaway began. That was an insight for the purpose of getting more permanent capital. So here’s the point. And now I’m coming around to answering your question. How is that relevant to redemptive imagination? The gospel in the market? How is that relevant? Because the same principle applies. Imagine there is a for profit company also delivering the gospel into the market in some form or fashion chaplains, poverty alleviation, education, health, you name it. Romans twelve says many parts of one body. Right. A lot of different ways to deliver the gospel into the market. OK, well, imagine you have invested in a company that’s doing that really well, making a difference in the world. And compounding the gospel on the market over time at your 10, you’re going to want to keep going with that from a redemptive perspective. And so the idea is to allow the eighth wonder of the world to be realized for both financial return and from a redemptive perspective, both.

Henry Kaestner: So it makes a big impression on me. And I think that also building off of that dynamic, which is not just the concept of compounding interest in financial return and not interrupting that, it is suboptimal time. One of the reasons why Solomon’s Capital Fund, we want to twelve year funds because we saw so much agitation from co-investors in your six and seven. Looking for an exit and then taking less a lower price. But because they had to get out. It just doesn’t make sense if you’re getting the flywheel going on, really figuring out product market fit and really scaling a business to get out just in an arbitrary time doesn’t seem to make sense. Permanent capital headset. But even more powerfully, more powerfully, I think on the spiritual side, when Tom talks about an entrepreneur warm coming about this because this is their mission and their consuming thing, especially if it has a gospel integration to have somebody on your cap tables like I’m with you. I also see this as life mission, and we’re going to go, hey, let’s do this together and let’s not talk about the exit. Let’s talk about the mission. Let’s talk about it. How to reinforce success without any type of artificial, arbitrary type of thing of needing to get out. That would seem to be powerful as an investor and it maybe having a strategic advantage, because we all know if we’re in the fund business, it’s all about deal flow. And it’s the getting the looks at the deals, which means that you need to be able to show an entrepreneur that there’s something special about you and your partnership that’s different. If you can say to an entrepreneur whose life has a mission is going to come on board with you and I don’t need to get out. That would seem to give you an advantage versus a different funding vehicle that says we love you, but we love you for six and half years.

Tom Blaisdell: I saw a great cartoon. It was people sitting across the desk, each other. And one person was saying to the other one. Think of it as permanent capital that you have to get back in three years.

So not permanent capital. So investing, not again, is moving from being ambassador to being a capital allocator. You’re not just investing your dollars for the high to maximize your return, but you’re investing your dollars to solve a problem that matters to God. I picked that phrase up actually from a podcast you guys had recently, I think was Dick Blanc from Cedarville University. Somehow I pulled out from what are you saying? Were solving problems that matter to God. And there may be a terrific investment opportunity around doing the next caffeinated hard seltzer. But is that a problem that matters to God, you know? Or is there something where you’re leaning in and saying, you know, even when times are tough, I can continue to lean in?

Because what we’re doing matters to God. And by the way, if it’s a problem that matters to God, there will be an investment return profile there as well. This is, of course, separated from philanthropy. And I don’t know if you get into that. William and Henry, on any of your other podcasts, have, you know, where is that line? And that’s certainly an interesting topic in itself. But I think what we’re talking about here are real investments with real market returns, capital Honorine Returns. But, you know, it’s capital with a mission, not a deadline. And that’s what we’re talking about with permanent capital. And I do think, Kendry, to your point. It’s a differentiated value proposition.

William Norvell: OK, Tom. John, this may be self-proclaimed self-proclaimed provocative person on the show here. Some here in this. And I’m entrapped. I’m in. I’m actually thinking, you know, why would I ever work for someone that doesn’t have personal capital? Why would I ever tell an entrepreneur to take money from someone who’s not permanent capital? I mean, this is good Kool-Aid here. And Tom, you made a comment earlier. The tenure model wasn’t totally broken, that it had value. But I want to dove in back. I think someone could listen to this and both an entrepreneur award investor and say, well, that’s the only model. I mean, clearly, you’ve made a compelling case. That’s what God would value, is that you’re along for the mission. You don’t have investors pounding on your door. You know, you can build the company as long as you want, you know, and and, of course, God requires companies to sell and opportunities come along. We always have to be looking for that.

But, man, I would never take money from a tenure fund that doesn’t feel God honoring. Let me ask that question. Is that how you guys feel? And you’re welcome to feel that way. I’m just interested in where you stand today as you’ve done this research over so many years.

John Denniston: So I think it’s an excellent question. William, let me offer this perspective.

As I said, there is a growing market for permanent job, but there’s also a growing market for impact, redemptive imagination, startup companies that integrate financial and redemptive for secular impact. There’s the equation that I use to describe the current dynamic in that marketplace of capital and ideas.

See is greater than I. That is to say, the volume of impact capital currently exceeds the volume of great breakthrough impact or redemptive business ideas. That’s a problem, but it’s also a creative opportunity. And Christian entrepreneurs should consider attacking that with all the creativity God gave them in new novel ways to integrate finance and business with redemptive imagination. That’s an opportunity. And we’re in the early days of it. And so the thing that I’ll say about shifting offers impact and permanent. We’re combining the two in this podcast. But on permanent Kamper Watch is a permanent capital investor. Want permanent capital investor wants a high probability of permanence. The penny keeps on doubling every single day. So a demonstrated momentum that, yeah, I’ll put my money in for more than 10 years. But if I’m a university endowment or insurance company or pension plan, maybe 20 or 30 or 50, maybe there’s no limit on it. Something like that. But for me to feel good about doing it, I want to see momentum that just me a strong feel. This has some competitive differentiation and that’s going to keep on going. That’s what Warren Buffett has done successfully, a virtual ask away. The last thing I’ll say on this. Likewise for faith driven investor would like to see the same thing. To make a permanent investment in a redemptive imagination company. See the momentum and the success that gives you a very good feeling that that redemptive activity will continue to compound going forward.

Henry Kaestner: It’s if the world you know, as I’m thinking about this, I’m thinking of venture capital and private equity are getting a little bit potentially of a bad rap. Now, to be clear. Part of me looks at this through the lens of an entrepreneur. Most of my life has not been as an investor, has been as an entrepreneur. And I know how it’s really encouraging when you’ve got somebody alongside strapped in mass with you. Just like I’m in it with you. And I’m nothing about exit, but it also makes me think about the role that venture capital plays in. I’d be remiss if I didn’t talk about that with two guys who spent a lot more time in venture capital than I. But I think that there’s maybe an occasion, I think particularly in both. Have you made significant investments overseas in emerging markets? John, you’re living that out right now. But as I think about deploying capital overseas in places like East Africa where they need startup capital, and you look at and say, gosh, there’s a generation right now of entrepreneurs that need capital, but this can be another generation of entrepreneurs who get a new capital seven or eight years. So if I have a certain amount of money to invest, if I invest in these people and it’s tied up for 30 years or 40 years, then I’m not able to invest in the next generation. But it strikes me that you won’t invite those entrepreneurs into this partnership. Like, here’s the money Amen invest in you. And to be clear, my model dictates that I don’t need to get this money back out six or seven years. I get a 10 year fund because you’re going to participate. The returns that you have are going to be part of what provides the startup capital for the next generation of faith driven investor in Nairobi. That’s why I’m looking for an exit, because we want to continue to invest in. And you going to be a part of that story before we completely and I want to get back to permanent capital to be clear it, before we completely dismiss all of venture capital in its redemptive purpose. Do you want to either you want to riff on that and comment on that?

Tom Blaisdell: Absolutely. Henry, and you’re exactly right about the role. Venture capital plays a very specific role. Right. And if you think about it in the typical sense, you’re putting that venture. It’s venture money. It’s very risky money at a very early time, at a point where that company’s going to be growing like crazy. In fact, there’s a metric out there for SAS companies. Software’s a service company right now, which is a triple, triple, double, double, double. Right. So in the first two years, you triple your revenue and then after that, you’re doubling your revenue. These are amazing growth rates, right? So say you do a million dollars and you’re supposed to do three million dollars, which was nine million dollars and 80 million and 36 million and seventy two million dollars. That is a rocket ship, right? A rocket ship takes a different kind of fuel. And that fuel is the venture capital because they’re investing in these hits misses. And some of those rock chips are going to get, you know, escape velocity and go into orbit and be amazing. And a lot of you are going to blow up on the launchpad. And so you’re invested in that super risky period of the company, which is that first 10 years and really more like the first three to five years of the company. Right. So that’s the role of venture capital. If you sort of zoom out, though. Venture capital is only a appropriate fuel for a tiny segment of all the companies that are going to get started in the world. Right. So every thousand companies that get start, including the local bagel shop or a car wash or a paving company, they don’t need venture capital. Right. So already we’re talking about out of 1000 companies, one of them needing venture cap. Now, within that world are the same people, again, as I had defined as these mission driven opener’s building, multi decade or multigenerational companies. And maybe they’re trying to build it on a more sustainable path. They’re not going to do the triple, triple, double, double, double, but they’re going to try and get profitable sooner. There’s something called the Evergreen Journal, which has specifically been de Borten is building this community of evergreen businesses that are, you know, sort of safe and sane, profitable growth businesses.

And that’s a terrific, different way to go. And then I’ll finally just fall back on the fact what I said at the top of being a capital allocator versus an investor. It’s hard. So I came out, you know, bright eyed, bushy tailed, come out of the academic world. I’m going to go to permanent capital. Right. William And the next thing I know, I’ve got three or four angel investments in a series seed going out to raise the series A, Series B, you know, it’s who I am. It’s where I live. It’s the network I have. It’s the model that I know works. And, you know, obviously, we’re very important Vestas to have in that ecosystem as well. And to have at least one investor on your cap table who’s able and you know this very well from sovereigns cap. And even just having one mission driven, faith driven investor in your cap table is a huge encouragement to the CEOs. I’m still working at this coal face. Henry of. We get more of that permanent capital to actually, you know, extend out to more of those companies that aren’t the traditional targets gonna triple, triple, double, double.

Henry Kaestner: Makes me think about something from in and out burger, like a menu item before we come back into permanent capital. From your perspective to what you see as the redemptive purpose of venture capital.

John Denniston: Yeah, I think that the question of redemptive verse is venture capital. They’re both good. So venture capital has provided the fuel for a great many discoveries and innovations that have done good in the world.

A great many. Now, there’s a current debate about is all of that good?

I don’t want to get into that, but you can read about that every single week or day in the newspaper. Get into it. So what did the focus on hypergrowth. Is very good and helpful. Or if it’s just.

Well, the purpose of the company to begin with and its method and its integrity and and and and all of that. All of that, you can read about it. I’m not taking a side much, but, you know, so. Yeah, sure. Is hypergrowth required? Are there different ways to go about growth that, you know, all of that. But it’s a hard growth, but also what’s the purpose of the company? And redemptive companies are declaring some of them a dual purpose. Financial return. Yes. But also redemptive return through their imagination. A dual purpose.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us about that redemptive and mental purpose that you’ve got it shared. We didn’t spend a lot of time at the outset talking about that. But what of your last five years been? Was it look like as you’ve sought to provide investors that have come along side? And just in a quick disclaimer. We’ve done some convincing to get go done some co-investor together with Tom as well. And we are a shareholder and shared ex and one and without having an exit in mind. But talk to us about the five years that you’ve had and what share tax does is you blend the redemptive purpose and the financial purpose.

Was it look like. Yeah, well, first and Rick, thank you for your confidence and faith in us. And actually, let me just riff off of that. One of the great joys over the past five years has been just the great, amazing set of impact, faith based other investors that are looking to do this, to looking to do this. And so we have investors from North America, South America, Europe and Asia. A lot of different categories, including faith based. And it’s been marvelous, really just one of the great parts of deciding to embark on this adventure. So here’s the Shattuck’s. We’ve designed what we call an inherent impact business model, which is to say that the financial model that we have designed inherently produces impact in lifting smallholder farmers or deploying regenerative responsible farming methods. And correspondingly, the fact that we are doing good in the world itself brings financial benefit because the market wants more of that. It’s in the data. Consumer markets, work or markets.

Capital markets are all there’s this triple up shift and demand curves for purpose, and it’s gone largely unseen under cover of darkness over the past five or 10 years. And so companies that decide in an authentic way to come in to combining the two have a very good surprise in front of them, which is they’re going to be embraced to some degree by the triple up shift in those demand curves. So the question that I want a bridge off that a little bit, when you find investment vehicles like yours and others that have a redemptive purpose in them and where somebody can be brought into the mission. Do you ever see a danger with capital sources coming in and possibly distorting the market? Give me an example. Company comes out and there’s some redemptive part of what they’re doing. And it’s a feel good story. They’re providing employment or they’re feeding people and because of their redemptive purpose on the economic side. So maybe they’re doing a million dollars of top line. Maybe they’re going at 20 percent and they come out and they say, well, we’re going to raise two million dollars and we do that at thirty five million primary valuation. That would seem to be at odds with where they are in terms of their numbers. But it’s a really good story. People love the impact they’re making. Do you see any danger there? How do you think about pricing those deals? It’s a lot of the people they can be listening to. This is like I get it. I get it. I’m listening in favor of an investor podcast motivated by my faith. I want to see a redemptive edge in what I’m doing. But I also want to still be a really good investor. And how do I think about valuing these companies at the entry point? I get what you’re saying in this episode of the podcast you’re talking about. Let’s not focus so much on the exit, but how do I think about the entry and how do I provide counsel to the entrepreneur about the right entrance valuation riff on that bit?

Sure. Short answer is the market determines that. And.

Henry Kaestner: Lynette, but so the market determines that at a particular time, so if a company is raising a million dollars and you’re saying I’m going to raise 20000 kids from five different people in your practice, have you ever seen a situation where they are able to raise money at an out of market valuation that then hurts them longer term, that it took them too long to grow into that valuation?

John Denniston: I’m sure that happens. I’m sure that happens as it does in the venture capital world. I’m sure it does. And so, yeah, just that put a risk if, you know, there’s a down round and that company’s future. Definitely. So that poses a risk for both conventional and a redemptive company. And I’m very sure that happens.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. Tom, talk to us about entrance valuations, whether it’s in venture capital, but then especially in permanent capital, when you find a business that’s aligned on impact, but because they’re not so much focused on, hey, here’s how you’re going to get triple your money back in four years, we’re gonna be building this for long term. How do you think about entrance valuations?

Tom Blaisdell: Yeah, I think the term that comes up all the time is concessionary returns. Right. Are you willing to accept a concessionary return? So if a venture capital investment supposed to return 20 to 30 percent IRR, you know, on average, should you be willing to suggest that, you know, you’ll do 15 percent or 10 percent?

Tom Blaisdell: And is that okay? It’s so case dependent. And I think this also gets to, you know, how many people have to come around the table. If you have a pool of Perman capital and you can go in and you can fund the series A and B and the C and keep pure people around the table, then this becomes much less important. Right. It’s just we all decide how much equity needs to be in the hands of the employees and how much equity needs to be enhancing investors. Once you start getting multiple entities around the table, that’s where the alignment issues really start to perk up. I think this is also. And again, this is why William Perman capital isn’t the answer to all the problems right now, because while there’s a lot of permanent capital out there, there really is. It’s not in structures that are very easy for entrepreneurs to tap into. And I know that’s probably one question I want to talk about is where can you go find this permanent capital? But I think one thing, if you think of one source of Perman capital, especially in the faith driven investor movement, it’s going to come from family offices. Right. Family foundations, family endowments, high net worth individuals. And those people need to be more active in aligning, you know, the why of how their money is being invested. There’s a general problem in economics and investing called the principal agent problem. Right. Which is that the principal, who’s the one who’s putting up the money and the agent who say is the general partner in the fund have different incentives. Right. In terms of like how quickly they put out the money, how much they charge for fees, how quickly they sell the company and, you know, decisions they might make internal to the company about sharing the wealth with employees and how they treat their communities and things like that. So there’s a principal agent problem. I actually see that sort of expanding into a principal agent, agent, agent, agent problem, which is, you know, you have the high net worth individual who has the estate planner, who hires a money manager, who puts it into a fund of funds, who puts it into a venture capital fund, who hands it to a general partner. You now have five agents in that chain who are all making different alignment choices. So, Henry, when you said his venture capital, good or bad, I think that all too easy answer is it’s very simple for venture capital to be a moral right. It’s just it’s neither good or bad. This is what it is. And normally what’s said when the money is given is maximize my value, maximize the return on my investment within the bounds of legality.

That’s the guardrails. Don’t break any laws, but otherwise maximize my return.

That’s how you know, clearly something like Jewel, the vaping company, can get funded and can make a ton of money for investors. And it’s within the guardrails. It’s legal. But is that what that principle? All the way back at the beginning, that change is now with the principal wanted to do. And that’s why I think the principals are the ones that have to take the responsibility or to pull that chain back in and say, I want to be in direct communication with the agent, whether that’s Henry and William, sovereign’s capital or somewhere else.

And I want to make sure we’re on the same page about where our guardrails are, which are gonna be different than what the guardrails of society at large are.

Henry Kaestner: That has got to be an episode on podcasts. We’ve got to unpack that. The principal agent, agent, agent. Do you think about some of the the very large venture capital funds that have been known for saying you want to know what our investment thesis is and how we invested seven deadly. You want to know why we made investment? Jordache. That’s easy. SLOSSON Gluttony. Well, it did. All the LP is all the people who provide that money behind the investment. Did they know that or is that a victim of this whole principle agent, agent, agent thing? There’s a lot there. We need to come back to that.

Tom Blaisdell: I think the people listening to your podcasts here are interested in having their capital solving problems that matter to God. And if you’re listening to this podcast and you care about your capital, you’re stewarding, working to solve problems that matter to God. You’re going to get closer to the agents that you’re working with to make sure that’s happening.

William Norvell: That’s a great point, Tom. And yeah, it’s a great lead on. It’s the same in the public markets, right? You give either through a money manager or either through an ETF or most people have no idea what their money is in. And there’s people out there trying to solve that problem to at some level. But it’s a similar issue that I think God obviously all of us here agree. I think they got cares about that right. At some level. Probably each of us have different levels of where we think that matters. But so we did open a big topic. We had 45 minutes to get through permanent capital. How it impacts entrepreneurs, the pros, the cons. It’s a huge idea. I’ve really just thank you both for doing that with us. I would encourage anyone to read Tom’s paper. I think it does a great job in three to four pages of talking about the pros and cons, transaction costs and return thresholds and and all these different things that come about the structure and a really eloquent way. So I know we’ll link to that. And as we wrap up, one of our favorite things to do is connect our listeners to our guest through the word of God. And so if you wouldn’t mind sharing a quick bit on maybe where God has you in his word, that could be this morning. Something you read or heard. It could be a season that maybe God has you in meditating on a specific verse or story. Can any of those things we loved know what God’s word is and how it’s coming alive to you during this time today?

John Denniston: Yeah. Thank you, William, for me. I recently have been reflecting quite a bit on Matthew 13. The parable of the sower and the seed that falls on good soil yields one hundred sixty thirty fold. And so for me, I think spiritually seeing that in a new and fresh light. But also, this is true of a great number of Jesus parables based on agriculture, farming, because people could understand it. So, I mean, and actually a shirt ex were working on yield enhancement as one of the things that we do. So, yeah. Matthew 13, the parable of the Sower. Good word.

Tom Blaisdell: We recently just wrapped up an eight week sermon series actually stretching all the way back to Easter on Hope, which was really terrific and so timely for so many reasons. Just a timestamp. This we’re in month five of the pandemic, the Cauvin pandemic now. And in California, we just went back into a more tighter form of lockdown.

One of the key learnings for me in that series was that in Jesus’s day, hope would have been considered a character flaw, wishful thinking, by most of the mainstream religions and philosophies of the day. But the burse that we keyed on throughout the entire series was Romans 15, 13, made the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. So Paul is calling God the God of hope. For Christians, hope is a virtue, not a flaw. It’s a feature, not a bug. And so hope is very different from optimism, of course. Optimism is just the expectation that things are going to turn out well. Hope, as explained in the sermon series, is a combination of imagination, desire and importantly, belief. Its trust in God. Right. And so Psalm 27, some trust in chariots and some in horses. But we trust in the name of the Lord, our God. When your revenue goes down 97 percent. Who do you trust and where is your trust? Where’s your hope? Right. It’s not in your bank balance. Not your contingency plan. It’s not your all star board or your reseize. Nobody can or should have had a business contingency plan for this kind of havoc that’s going on in the market right now. It doesn’t matter whether you’re an ant or a grasshopper all summer. Right. When your business literally goes to zero or all night, whether you were putting away stuff or whether you were playing, when your revenue goes to zero, it doesn’t matter. So where is your hope? And so the path is it’s been speaking to me is Isaiah 40 31, which says that those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength, they will soar on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not be faint. We’ve been called to a mission that’s much greater than our personal comfort or sustainability. And so, again, I just close with don’t put faith driven investing in the too hard pile. Invest in just causes. Because it’s our joy to do this work together.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a great word, guys. I’m very grateful. Pray to you. Thank you for spending time. Thank you for your leadership in the movement. Thank you for being with us today.

Tom Blaisdell: Thank you so much. And Ray, William, Tom, thank you so much.

Henry Kaestner: As we finish up, we like to spotlight a ministry that is locking arms with our listeners. We know that many listening to the show are business owners and entrepreneurs looking to live out your faith in the marketplace. So this week, we want to make sure everyone knows about the faith driven entrepreneur. It’s a weekly podcast, a monthly newsletter, a daily blog, along with other video Bible studies and events that help you get provisioned for. Journey you are on. Check it out at Faith Driven Entrepreneur, dawg.

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Kingdom Advisors is setting the standard for what it means to be a Christian financial advisor. They provide encouraging content and community that is building up the collective body of believers, and we’re so glad to point you to their work today. 

Rob West is the President of Kingdom Advisors and in addition to sharing their origin story and mission, he shared interesting insights into specific investment vehicles that Faith Driven Investors should know about. Check it out today…

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Rob, it’s awesome to have you on the show, thank you for joining us, Henry, so glad to be with you. This is super cool for me because, you know, you’ve done and to be clear, we haven’t done very many of these across Faith Driven Entrepreneur and feature an investor, but it’s infrequent that I find somebody who is a guess who’s done infinitely more of these than we have. And you’re a radio guy and you’ve done this a long time. And I got to tell you, it’s a little intimidating to talk to a guy who’s actually a radio host and interviewing him.

Rob West: Well, with podcasting these days, just about everyone is doing this kind of thing. So you’re right, though. I do host a radio program every afternoon, but I’ve really been looking forward to this conversation and so excited about the work of faith driven investor.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you for joining us. So I know a lot of our listeners and we’ve heard this feedback already. A lot of our listeners are financial advisors. A lot of our listeners are their clients, but a lot of people who have as a profession to help people understand how to steward the wealth that’s been entrusted to them. So this is a big deal for us to hear from you today. But to start talk to us about this program that you’ve got and the platform that you have. And what is Kingdome Advisors?

Rob West: Yeah, well, I appreciate that question, Henry, and, you know, I would start by saying King of Advisors is really leading what we call an industry of Christian financial advice. We have the privilege of serving about thirty one hundred Christian financial advisors in the U.S. and Canada. Really one of the main objectives there is to provide advocacy for these advisors who we like to say are specialists in bringing biblical wisdom to bear alongside competent financial advice.

We also issue a designation, as you know, Henry certified Kingdome advisor, which is really positioned in the market as the gold standard for biblically wise financial advice among believers and those who want to align their faith with their financial decisions at a professional level. We also provide community for these financial advisors through more than 250 study groups that meet in the US and Canada. These are small groups of advisors and right now they are happening virtually, even though typically they would be mainly in-person meetings. We do an annual conference every year, which we say is the industry gathering. And we could talk about that a little later in our time together today. And then, of course, we offer training and tools where we deliver a step by step process for advisors who want to be confident in bringing this biblical financial advice to their clients. And then to your earlier mention of the radio program, we also have another ministry under Kingdome Advisors called Money Wise and Money Wise. Media is really our ministry where we share these principles with the public through our nationally syndicated radio programs. We’re reaching about a million Christians a week and then many more through the podcast.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so I want to ask a lot of that, but I want to start with the Origin story. So Kingdome Advisors has obviously been around for a while. If you’ve got thirty one hundred people coming to that annual event, by the way, I’ve been at some of your events there worldclass. Tell us about how it all got started.

Rob West: Yeah, well, so we’d have to go back to nineteen ninety seven, Larry Birkhead, the late Larry Birkhead, who’s most well known for the books that he wrote, he had a radio program that was probably one of the first in the space of about a thousand radio outlets. And Larry brought together 16 Christian financial professionals and they formed what was called the Christian Financial Planning Institute with a commitment to delivering biblically wise financial advice. Well, fast forward a number of years and really they expanded their vision to create a new organization that would really be responsible for taking the lead and reaching the Christian financial professional community. So at the time, they reached out to Ron Blue, who’s a friend of yours and mine. And Ron, of course, an author, was the founder and is the founder of Rodell Blue and Company. Ron had built what is today still the largest Christian financial planning and wealth management firm anywhere, and with about 90 advisors at the time, the certainly larger now they were helping Henry. Many Christian families steward their resources. But what was fascinating was their clients were giving away tens of millions of dollars annually to Kingdome causes. And I think the reason really was that these advisors had a real sense of calling the Praxis was their ministry. They saw it that way. There was tremendous cultural reinforcement, if you will, within the organization. And they demonstrated that biblical financial wisdom worked at a professional level. And of course, it would, because it comes right out of God’s word. Well, Larry, and these 16 advisors approached Ron and asked him to take over as CEO of what would later become Kingdome Advisors with this expanded vision. And really the rest is history. We now have these 30, 100 advisors that we serve and the organization is really growing significantly.

Henry Kaestner: Salamat understand the difference. So you’re your customer.

You’re somebody who’s been entrusted with wealth at any level that’s listening to this and you’re trying to figure out what does a Christian financial advisor give me their second wouldn’t. So presumably a secular financial advisor wants to help you plan for retirement and college planning and things. You might need a medical emergency. How is that different from a Christian perspective?

Rob West: Yeah, and we serve really financial professionals in one of five disciplines, if you will. So the financial planners, the investment professionals, but also CPAs and accountants, also insurance folks and then finally estate planning attorneys. But you would expect from every adviser, of course, experience, integrity, competence, and we measure all of those for our designation. We have an experience requirement and they have to abide by a code of ethics and the statement of faith. And we require pastor and client references and regulatory review and the like. But really, to your question, you know, I think I can read the difference from their secular counterpart is in the ability to bring advice that aligns with the values and priorities of Christians know there are real planning differentiators.

When you lay a biblical worldview on top of financial decision making, it changes how you approach accumulation and lifestyle and legacy and wealth transfer and generosity. And to our conversation today, investing as well.

So an advisor who understands the heart of God related to money through the more than 2000 verses on the subject, in God’s word. Well, he or she can ask different questions and really assist the client in being a faithful steward of all that God has entrusted to them. You know, I think the other difference, though, Henry, is that a certified Kingdome adviser, somebody who’s really a specialist in this area, understands that money issues are ultimately heart issues. We talked about, Larry Briquette really founding the Christian Financial Planning Institute, which later became CSPI. Larry used to say that the way we handle money is the clearest indicator into what’s going on in our lives spiritually. It says where we placed our trust, it says what we value. And if something is going to dethrone God from first position in our lives, it’s most often going to be money. So I believe the Christian advisor really can help clients hold what they have loosely understand that their financial journey in many ways shapes their spiritual journey and really underscore Henry the importance of giving generously.

Henry Kaestner: So you mentioned something along the way I thought is really important in the 2000 verses to talk about money and investing in the Bible. And I would imagine that one of the greatest challenges that any financial advisor has is in working with a couple, a husband and a wife who may have different views of money. And if you’re just looking at a secular perspective with kind of a, you know, a relative truth perspective, it may be very difficult to be able to bring a couple together around how to think about how to steward money or how to think about generosity, et cetera. But it’s got to be really helpful for that financial adviser to say, listen, you know, one of. This brings us together is this belief that there’s a God who loves us and that he has this handbook, if you will, handbook is not the right way to probably talk about the word of God. But nonetheless, there’s this great scriptural reference to help you as a couple to process through things like generosity and wealth over the generations, et cetera. To that extent, I suppose maybe it’s easier for Christian financial advisor to help people.

Rob West: Yes, well, I think you’re exactly right, and especially right now, through the times in which we find ourselves in the midst of a pandemic, I think advisors and clients alike want to know that they’re receiving advice. They’re delivering advice that’s rooted in something transcendent, that it’s bigger than them. And as Ron Blue likes to say, you know, biblical wisdom is always right. It’s always relevant. It’s never going to change. And we know that’s true. But you bring up a really key point here. And that is as to the couple, you know, this is really critical. We’re big fans of the work of Jeff and Shante Feldheim, who just completed a three year long study on men, women and money and wrote a book about it. And we just I interviewed Shauntay a couple of weeks ago on it. And, you know, she was uncovering this idea that 70 percent of married couples have real difficulty communicating about money. And one of the top reasons for it is there’s a misalignment or a misunderstanding of how their values connect to their money. And so this is really the opportunity for the advisor. And I would say even more so for the Christian advisor to be able to lean into that and say, let’s work together, husband and wife, on uncovering your values. What’s important to you? And how can money as a tool be used as an expression of those values? And that brings them together instead of driving a wedge in the relationship?

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, it’s powerful. I’m completely with you, especially in the context of giving how much is enough? What’s our finish line starting with that? And then, of course, from then so many other things come in tax planning and succession planning and how much to for the kids, etc.. Let’s get back to you. Talked about Ron being a key part of picking up the mantle from Larry Birkhead. We’re huge fans around here. You mentioned he’s a friend. He’s been a great adviser to us for the last dozen or so years. And pretty much anything that I’ve done and I know continues to be integral in the work that you guys do, a kind of advisers. How is his influence affected you? And just, you know, perspective a guy that’s been doing this for 50 plus years, the larger faith driven investor movement, and it doesn’t sound like he’s slowing down.

Rob West: No, no, it’s it’s amazing. He’s actually busier than ever, doing really important work through the round words do, but still very heavily involved in Kingdome advisors and the work that we do and as a monthly contributor to money wise and money wise radio programs as well. I don’t know how he does what he does to his influence on me personally, Henry. I would just say he’s been one of the most significant mentors in my life. So Howard Dayton is another giant of the faith. And Ron Blue, it’s just been incredible that the Lord has allowed them to speak into my life in the ways that they have. Ron’s an amazing visionary. I’ve learned so much from him on that. I think probably the most significant thing that has stood out to me about his life is just the integrity with which he has conducted himself and his ministry over the decades. He is who he says he is, and he’s the same guy, whether he’s on the stage or he’s at home with his wife, Judy. So he is just an amazing man, that God is used in significant ways and continues to. But his influence on this space has been enormous. He, I would say, is the founder of Christian Financial Planning. You know, his work to pioneer the delivery of biblical financial advice at the professional level is really the foundation for all of the training we do today. Kingdome Advisors. Although Ron’s work was really focused in the planning areas, he was really clear from the very beginning that this idea of faith based investing was really a conviction or a conscience matter that Christians needed to wrestle with. And I really think that as the faith driven investment space matures with now so many world class investment solutions being created that are uniquely designed for the Christian advisor and ultimately investor, there’s a true industry of Christian financial advice for these investments to live within. That is a direct result of Ron and his work ethic.

Henry Kaestner: So tell me more about the you mentioned in industry. So it’s much more than just a conference. There’s actually there’s many aspects to it. You talked before about five different kind of professionals that come in from attorneys all the way through. Tell us more about this growing industry.

Rob West: Yeah, well, it’s really one of the most exciting things that has come out of our work at Kingdome Advisors in the last five years. Henry, we’re just thrilled that there now exists today a true industry of Christian financial advice. And you would think about it, as you could call it, a specialty. But we really refer to it as an industry because there’s so many different pieces and parts of it. Of course, it’s a subset of the larger financial services industry and some of the components we’ve now got. Fifteen hundred certified Kingdome advisors. So we’ve got these thirty, thirty, one hundred members of Kingdome Advisors we serve more than fifteen hundred have earned the designation to be held out to the public last year. Forty eight. And Christians searched for a local certified kingdom adviser to connect with in their community, and so there’s a growing demand on the part of Christians for this, datelined advice and investment solutions. Fifty firms have now approved certified kingdom adviser. And if you know anything about what’s happening in designations in the financial services industry, there’s less and less of them that are being recognized. And so the fact that 50 firms, including some of the biggest firms up and down Wall Street, having approved for use and some of those major firms even approving Scriptura to be used in financial plans by these advisors is just a huge step forward.

You know, we’re seeing significant coverage of the Christian financial industry in the financial media. So we’ve been featured in The Wall Street Journal and Financial Planning magazine and FDE magazine. I mean, it’s Yahoo! Finance. You know, there’s a real interest in what’s happening across this space.

One of the most exciting pieces of this industry, Henry, that’s taken off in the last several years because of the work at not only Kingdome Advisors, but the ROMBA Institute is the number of Christian universities that are now bringing this training into their financial planning degree programs so they can train up and graduate future financial advisors that are ready to enter this business as a specialist and then biblically wise financial advice. And so we’re thrilled about that. And then I could point to many more evidences. But the last one I’ll mention is just, I think, directly related to our conversation today. And that is just the incredible number of investment solutions that are being created, uniquely suited for the Christian advisor in this whole faith driven investing space that are just such high quality investments and the growing number of them, even just in the last couple of years. I think it’s just real evidence of what’s taking off in front of us.

Henry Kaestner: So tell us a little bit more about some of the things that you’ve seen. What are some of the new funds that are out there, the new vehicles?

Rob West: Well, you know, one of the things that’s been helpful for us is to really think about these faith based investments in three categories. And so there would be, of course, the investments where we embrace certain things. So we’re screening in companies that have either a social or Kingdome impact. Perhaps you can call it a triple bottom line in some cases where, you know, looking through the investments and options out there and these, you know, investments are then bringing in companies that really are making a difference in the world. And, you know, there’s a growing number of those in both ETFs and, you know, private equity and mutual fund and obviously individual investments as well. Then in the second category of avoid, obviously, the growth in this area of the screening tools that are available and the number of growing solutions that are available to advisors who their clients really want to make sure that they leave out those companies that would in some way conflict with their values and priorities. And then this whole idea of shareholder engagement engages that third category. And it’s really been fun to see just a growing number of investments and firms that are really helping their clients, who are owners in companies, engage companies around their values and let their values be known and to see some of the differences that are being made as a result of that. And then just the quality of these investments that are winning industry awards and being recognized for not only just being high quality, but having stellar performance. You know, we didn’t see the number of investments, certainly not the quality of the investments that exist today, even just a couple of years ago. And so I think it’s really a new day for advisors who want to lean into the space with their clients.

Henry Kaestner: So I know it’s probably awkward for you because you represent this larger industry to single out any particular mutual funds or mutual fund families. And so I’m not going to put you on the spot for that. But I know of several. And and this is absolutely something for somebody to listen to his podcast to be able to talk through with their financial professional. It doesn’t take much research to find some of the ones that are great tortas about. You mentioned private equity. Traditionally, we think about some of the brokers that I used to back in the early 90s, worked at Merrill Lynch. So some of the wire houses are able to offer certain products that may be different than some of the independent financial planners and some of the independent financial planners may have access to be able to present some things with a little bit more latitude and maybe some wire houses. Like, for instance, I’m thinking now about some of the new investment opportunities that are going on in Eastern Europe, where there is investment in things that are bringing about God’s kingdom in Eastern Europe or in Africa. I think maybe about a couple that might come back from a missions trip to Rwanda and having encountered just really compelling entrepreneur, that’s got a great opportunity for agricultural investing. Tell us about the nuance or the different levels of the industry and where some advisers can get involved in some things and maybe some other ones can.

Rob West: Well, you’re exactly right. It really is going to depend on what type of firm they have, how they’re registered, what firm they work for, or whether they are truly independent as a registered investment advisor. So obviously, those that work at firehouses are going to have certain constraints as to the types of investments that are approved for use with their clients. Obviously still a plethora of solutions, all that they need to serve their clients well, including in this area of faith based investing among the big firms. And that’s one of the things that we’re so excited about as this industry continues to grow, is the number of really household name warehouses that are proving C.K. and allowing these faith based investment solutions to exist on their platform. But when you get into some of these private equity deals and you get into investments that are unregistered or require you to be accredited, you know, obviously those are going to be reserved in most cases for an independent advisor, either who has a broker dealer who’s willing to allow these solutions to be used or whether they’re truly just an RIAA making their own decisions, using a custodian, but ultimately able to then, you know, use and have access to a greater variety of unregistered securities, of course, for the right type of investor that meets a certain minimum net worth and so forth. So depending upon where the advisor is in this industry, he or she may or may not have access to the types of investments that you’re talking about. But clearly, there is a trend toward independent in the industry, which would mean simply that a growing number of advisors would have access even to the type of exciting things that you’re describing.

Henry Kaestner: So a couple of things come up for that. But first of all, I ask is on the SEC side, you’ve got 1500 now. Presumably there’s a place on the King of Advisors website where you can go and you can find out how you can find somebody.

Rob West: Absolutely. Both that kingdom advisors, dotcom and money wise, ERG. Like I said, just shy of 50000 Christians search for a certified Kingdome adviser in their city last year, and we’re seeing similar numbers this year.

Henry Kaestner: OK. And on that site, you’ve got a section that’s dedicated to biblically based response to market turmoil. Titus, through that a little bit, it’s been a crazy time. And what are some of the things that somebody might find on that section?

Rob West: Yeah, we are really excited to be able to put that together in response to covid-19. We just knew that it was a unique season for advisors and the clients that they serve. And so they went through kind of this triage phase, as so many advisors did in the early days of that with the incredible market gyrations, just needing to contact advisors or clients. And, you know, one of the real challenges of this particular crisis was that in other times of crisis, you know, we would come together in community to process it. Know, I remember right after 9/11 going over to my parents house and meeting my siblings there, and we just kind of all sat around and debriefed. And, you know, one of the real challenges here in the early days of covid and now to some degree still today was that people were isolated. And so it just created, you know, the fear really led to a rational thinking and behavior. And so much of that, you know, was realized in the form of irrational decision making in their finances. So these advisors were just really trying to come alongside their clients and triage the situation. And now they’ve kind of settled into a new normal, if you will, you know, with lots of meetings and just reacting and responding to what’s going on around them. But we created this resource that king of advisors, Dotcom’s covid-19, where we wanted to offer just spiritual encouragement to these advisors. That’s a big part of what we do for this community that we serve to bring industry thought leaders to the table. That could just be a real source of trusted counsel and insights. And then really in this third area, help them navigate client conversations as they really bring to bear this time tested wisdom into the conversation and help them lean into this role in which they serve as counselor or coach, you might say.

Henry Kaestner: So what’s it like for a Christian financial advisor in a time like this? covid is meaning that you can’t get together and look at a bunch of charts together with your clients. I imagine that some part of that makes it more efficient, but some part of that makes it less relational. What are you hearing from the folks you serve?

Rob West: Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, just from a real practical sense, obviously, as in just about every other industry, there’s just a lot happening virtually through video conference. And so, you know, we’ve heard from some advisors that are building Zoome studios in their offices and thinking about how do we create a unique experience, everything from the audio quality to the lighting to, you know, how do we engage?

Because that’s probably one of these. Changes that’s going to stick where there’s some segment of the client base that is going to want to choose that option to meet, you know, moving forward and a greater percentage. And so that’s just one of the practical sides of it, obviously just managing through it as they have a remote workforce and just all the implications related to that. But then I think, Henry, as it relates to just the way in which they serve their clients, you know, we talk at King and Advisors about the four roles of an adviser, that of adviser, of course, that of leader, that of counselor, coach, and then finally disciple maker. And I think there are unique opportunities in each of those during this season. I mean, certainly as an advisor, I think one of the greatest things they can bring is just perspective, reminding them that God is in control and that he cares for them and that he is their provider and just kind of putting all of this uncertainty and unrest in a proper perspective, I think in the area of leader just bringing that biblical financial truth, that transcendent wisdom that transcends time and tax codes and markets and all of it, and really just reminding them of those bedrock principles, if you will, in the area of Councilor Koch. I think there’s a unique opportunity for these Kingdome advisors to listen, to acknowledge the feelings of their clients, to help them process the fear that they have. And I think, you know, for many of their clients to replace that with faith and really just lean in to that unique opportunity. And then finally, the opportunity for disciple maker just to really kind of help them process this on their own spiritual journey. So there’s a unique opportunity, I think, here. And so many of our advisors are encouraged just really about the doors that the Lord is opening, even just in the area of prayer, just as they find this as a season where they can pray more regularly with their clients, perhaps, than they have previously now.

Henry Kaestner: So you guys are known for an incredible gathering. I mentioned it before. It happens in Orlando each year. And you’ve got a number of other gatherings, some of which I’ve been to one in Nashville last year was outstanding. You introduced me to the world of Matamoras music and saw forever be grateful. I was outstanding. What does it look like for you all this year as you’re doing gatherings, or are you also moving to them? What are you going to do in Orlando?

Rob West: Yeah, so great question. And we obviously are doing a lot of things virtually. We have a remote workforce right now. So our team at Kingdome Advisors and money wise are all working from home with the exception of just the daily radio broadcast and a team of producers and coast graders and engineers that make that happen. But everybody else is working from home.

And so there’s just a real practical reality of how we’re working as a team, but it affects how we serve our members as well. Fortunately, the certified Kingdome advisor educational program that we offer, which is the training prerequisite for the Kingdom Advisor designation, which is a 50 hour program, is an online program offered through Liberty University, Indiana Wesleyan University. So those cohorts continue to go on on a self-paced basis and are instructional mentors, are working with them remotely, as they always have. I mentioned these 250 study groups that we offer around the U.S. and Canada. These are small groups of advisors that come together every month around original content that we produce in our studio and send out or stream. And they usually meet in person and around a 90 minute meeting to watch and discuss the material. Well, that’s all happening virtually. So that’s obviously a big change. And then, yes, this big annual gathering we do we were expecting between 1800 and 2000 Christian financial advisors in Orlando next February. And because of covid and the social distancing, we had to make the decision this summer. And we’ve just actually recently announced this publicly, that we’re actually moving to a virtual event this coming February. So our 20 21 conference will be an online experience, but it’s going to be anything other than perhaps what you have in your mind when you think of an online conference. It’s going to be the best of what Kingdome Advisors brings to the table. And this really is one of our unique competencies to create remarkable moments and really to deliver a world class conference. It’s going to be the best of what we deliver, but in the most accessible format ever. And so we’re actually really excited about it. We’re going to be planning for every bit of eight months. We’re going to be the best speaker lineup we’ve ever had. There’s going to be ways for this growing number and we think will be between three and four thousand advisors that will participate in it to search on a very granular basis for other advisors that have similar interests or practice types and connect with them. It’ll have the largest virtual exhibit hall we’ve ever had. There will be interaction with all the breakout speakers live. There’ll be a real engagement opportunities and a variety of other areas worship. So it’s going to be great. And I think, Henry, as much as we love to be together each year and we. Can’t wait to be back together in person in the future with the industry. Christian advice, we think this is a unique season for 20 21 to actually through this virtual conference to expose many, many more advisers to this industry than we ever have before, because there’s a certain number that just have never taken the trip to Orlando. And once they get there and experience it, they always come back. But until they experience it, it’s really hard to describe it. So I think we could really exponentially grow this community this year through this virtual gathering that’ll happen February 17th through the 19th of 2021 was that it comes up we want to do our part, making sure people know about it.

Henry Kaestner: Rob, one of the things we like to ask any one of our guests on any one of our programs is what you’re hearing from God personally and his word. Maybe it’s in a study group. Maybe it’s with your wife, maybe this morning. But what’s something that you’re hearing from God speak to you about from the Bible?

Rob West: Yeah, I appreciate you asking. You know, I’ve been studying recently the book of Mark and the Gospel of Mark. And, you know, this particular thing that just jumped off the page to me recently, Henry, I think relates directly to what we’re talking about here today. And it won’t be unfamiliar to you. It’s Mark four and it’s the parable of the solar. And what’s fascinating to me is just, you know, when the disciples are questioning Jesus around really the implications of this story that he’s just told about this parable of the sower, and they wanted to know what these various soils represented. And, you know, when he describes what choked out the word from burying a 30 60 hundredfold return in the soldiers lives, he says that it’s the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things. And I think that’s just so fascinating, because if you go back to what I was saying earlier at the kind of the beginning of our time together is that, you know, the love of money has the potential to be one of the most common things that will dethrone God from first position in our lives. And I think that’s exactly what this passage in Parable is speaking to, is that the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things, which probably is going to in many cases be material possessions, that has the potential to choke out the word from bearing fruit in our lives. And so God has just really been impressing upon me the unique opportunity we have to think differently about what God has entrusted to us. And I think that really underscores, if you will, the opportunity of the Christian advisor as well.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a great word and a great one to end on. Rob, thank you very much for joining the program, looking for the next time we get together. And it sounds like we’ll have an opportunity to participate virtually in February and hopefully will connect before then. Thank you for being on the program.

Rob West: It was a joy. Henry, I appreciate the invitation and I’ll look forward to be back with you again real soon.

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Today’s guest is Eric Kim, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Goodwater Capital. As early investors in Facebook, Twitter, Spotify, and others Eric and his team know a thing or two about the tech startup world. 

But that’s not the limit of Eric’s expertise. He’s done some great thinking about what spiritual integration looks like in their firm and how his faith guides him as he’s part of stewarding a portfolio of over a billion dollars. We’ll let you hear the rest from him…

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Everybody gets the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We’re glad you’re back. Today’s guest is Eric Kim, co-founder and managing partner of Goodwater Capital. As early investors and Facebook, Twitter, Spotify and others, Eric and his team know a thing or two about the tech startup world. But that’s not the limit of Eric’s expertize. He’s done some great thinking about what spiritual integration looks like and their firm and how his faith guides him as he’s part of stewarding a portfolio of over a billion dollars. I’ll let you hear the rest of it from him.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Today is super cool for me because we’re on with a good friend of mine, a guy that I’ve been able to be in in a Bible study and community group of sorts over the course of the last couple of years.

A number of us who are serious about our Christian faith and who got his place in the world of investing have gotten together just to encourage and challenge each other in our pursuit of knowing God and honoring him through our vocations. And it’s with Eric Kim that we’ve got today on the call and been looking for this podcast for a while. Eric, thank you very much for joining Henry.

Eric Kim: And Tim, thanks so much for having me. That’s a real honor and a blessing to be here with you on your listenership today. Appreciate it.

Henry Kaestner: So we have a love that is the official title for listenership that esteems our audience, which needs to be esteemed. Awesome. People were celebrating the fact that we’re now and something like seventy five different countries. But it’s been super encouraging to hear people come back in with great feedback and just great affirmation. So thanks for acknowledging that. And one of the things that you probably know and everybody in our listener base knows is that we like to hear the stories, the personal stories of the people that are on an episode with us. We want to get into some really neat things about the mission and the vision and values and how you think about things like a shadow mission. Today, we’re going to find out what in the world is a shadow mission. And then we’re also going to find out a little bit about the role that consumer technology plays in this post, covid or current covid world. But tell us about who you are, where you come from. And then in the mix of that, I want to know, what is your favorite piece to play on the show?

Eric Kim: Oh, I love it. Thanks for bringing that up. Well, guys, again, it’s just an honor. A pleasure to be here with you all.

So my parents immigrated from South Korea to New York City in the early 70s, which is where I was born when I was quite young. I moved to St. Louis, Missouri, where there weren’t a lot of Koreans where I grew up. I was there through high school. I grew up as a pretty serious musician and went to Yale for undergrad, actually, initially as a music major. And it was actually at Yale where I experienced the power of consumer technology and faith.

And a really interesting way when I was a senior, 9/11 happened. And I think everyone will remember where they were when they heard about the atrocity that happened. And for me, it was particularly painful. I had interned at a hedge fund that had some brokerages associated with it that were completely wiped out by what happened on 9/11, hit particularly close to home, being on the East Coast at that time and during that experience learned about the power of music and technology and community, because we came together as a group to host these benefit concerts. And I was a cellist on campus and we pulled together other groups in the way we advertised through that was through social media, kind of the version of that back then. What was social media where these kind of chat boards and I see a key messenger kind of environment and we advertise these benefit concerts. We saw the community, the network effects of getting the word out.

What inspired that kind of action at that time was kind of a rediscovery of my faith during college. And I talk about it later.

But a number of really influential kind of forces in my life at that time, everything from Campus Crusade for Christ to grab as a Catholic to St. Thomas Moore Chapel on campus as well. And by that ecumenical dialog and being at the intersection that really forfour. He had a really interesting kind of faith calling to come to service, and I bring up the 9/11 example because that carried with me throughout my career, going to McKinsey, working on a couple of startups, working at a large fund called Maverick, but ultimately feeling call to start with Tiwa, my co-founder in 2014, Goodwater Capital, which we believe is a value space to faith driven, purpose driven venture capital firm, which we’ll talk more about. But again, myself in a nutshell, kind of Midwest kid that now is here in Silicon Valley to try to do what we can do through venture investing to have a positive impact on the world.

Henry Kaestner: So if I remember a bit and we didn’t talk about this in the conversation leading up to the podcast, but if I remember back to 2014 and I had known to for a while, but it just started to meet you, there’s a faith story and how you guys got together. Can you share that?

Yeah, you know, there is a number, but God just kept having us meet each other.

Kind of it was serendipitous kind of flukes of nature at the beginning, but we would literally start running into each other. And we are obviously friends before. And we had gone to business school over fifteen years ago together at Stanford GSB, because when you’re ahead of me and then kind of as we were both thinking about starting our own separate firms at that time, God just found ways to bring us together. I remember one day at the Rosewood Hotel, kind of quintessential, you know, Silicon Valley shock.

William Norvell: And you ran into him there. I can’t believe I at the Rosewood.

Eric Kim: I know. I know. But it was like kind of in the thick of both of us thinking about an entrepreneurial venture. He was at Kleiner at the time. I was at Mavericks at the time.

And we had just had a conversation before. And like literally within that, I don’t know. Twenty four to 72 hour, we met again and then had another serendipitous conversation about, hey, what would it look like to start a firm together? And we kept doing that. And then the number of stories around the investors that we would literally meet at the airport that got delayed because the plane got delayed, you know, and then we happened to sit down at the same pizzeria. They were kind of these countless very serendipitous things that happened and, you know, couldn’t help but think that, you know, God’s kind of handprints were all over that in many ways. But it was really cool to see how that came together very organically at the beginning.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I remember that she was doing something about it, really endeavoring understand how to go proceed. And as he was doing that, all of a sudden out of the blue, you called and it was just really cool, made a real impression on him. And you guys have grown together and grown. Have fun now that I think is past the billion dollars of assets under management. So God has blessed your partnership and it gives you a lot of success. Your fund that focuses on consumer technology taught us a bit about what it is that you guys do in the fund and bring it into today’s environment. Why is what you do particularly important today?

Eric Kim: Yeah, so our stated mission when we started in 2014 was to empower exceptional entrepreneurs who are changing the world. And our focus area is just consumer technology. We don’t do enterprise, SAS, security, hardware, biotech, all.

We do our digital horizontal platforms that touch the consumer directly.

And so whether that’s financial services, health care, education, online grocery marketplaces, video communications. Kiwa was an investor in Facebook and Twitter prior to joining him. I Goodwater I was an investor in Kakao Talk, part of Goodwater, which now has ninety nine percent penetration as a messaging app in South Korea.

And you can go into our company there. There’s something very unique about the power of, again, horizontal digital platforms that have network effects that every time a net new user joins in the power of that platform becomes stronger. So whether that’s a Netflix, a Spotify, telemedicine companies, financial services, fintech companies, peer peer payments, one more one more user comes into that community or that app. The whole gets stronger and that’s all we do. I could water the entire billion dollar plus of the assets we manage is just focusing on empowering exceptional entrepreneurs who are changing the world through consumer technology because consumer technology touches billions of lives on a day to day basis, if not hour to hour basis. Whether we like it or not, we are in front of these digital platforms almost every living minute of the day. And so when we think about our mission, our calling, our purpose, we wanted to focus all our energy into what we think is one of the most powerful forces from a secular perspective in the world, which is consumer tech. So we’ve been in early investors in a company called Musically, which is now called Tech Talk, which is Superfriends. Enter the news these days. And we’ve been in other companies as well, you know, all kind of stuff or more questions on this topic and love to explore any area. But I will just leave by saying a lot of those companies end up being fairly controversial also. So what? It’s Facebook about privacy, to talk about privacy or, you know, when and how should telemedicine be adopted or what’s the privacy or the security around fintech platforms?

We as a value investor, actually want to be in the thick of those conversations. We want to be right where the rubber meets the road with regards to secular innovation and where consumer behavior is changing, because we think that even if we change the trajectory of this company by one degree, we will have tremendous impact, hopefully.

So that’s where we’re focused as of today.

Henry Kaestner: So I think that that’s something a lot of people don’t think about. And so many people think of the role when they invest in private equity funds as being a passive player in an overall trend. But the reality is, is that when you come alongside an early investor and get a board seat, you’re now a partner. You have a voice at the table. And you’re right, consumer technology is a wonderful thing. We all use it to be able to have people who are speaking into the lives of the entrepreneurs to encourage them, but then also appropriately challenge them. Is there an example that you might be able to offer up over the course of the last several years, if necessary? You can leave the name out of it where there is this kind of ethical kind of fork in the road where the CEO of a consumer technology company is trying to say, we see an opportunity here, but your sense of values and faith driven, this tries to encourage them in a different direction.

Eric Kim: Yeah, that there are several points to a couple. I’ll start by stating our core values, which today are humility, integrity, transparency, quality, service. And then we’ve added a six one justice and we could talk more about that. But it’s through these lens that first we make it really, really almost painstakingly clear to our entrepreneurs before they sign up to partner with us that those are the values that we’re about. So if you want someone in your cap table that has those values, we’ll work with you day and night through those lenses. I would say, particularly with regards to consumer technology in this day and age. One of the things we’re really passionate about that has come up, frankly, time and time again.

It’s come up before I started. Goodwater, it’s ever more present today is the production of children on these platforms and whether it’s pornography, whether it’s addiction, whether it’s child pornography itself, it’s again, something that is near and dear to a lot of our hearts as parents and as family members, frankly. And we see it. It was something that there was a major platform that we were associated with. I can’t name it, but we had to really pound the table with regard to changing our growth trajectory, sacrificing some initial growth to make sure we safeguarded the children that would potentially be in the audience itself. And it comes up time and time again. But I think what is surprising and not trying to toot my own horn, we fall short in so many ways, but is that we are usually the sole voice pounding the table about these issues. And again, these companies netnet may be seen, but actually is very controversial or very, you know, potentially gray in some areas.

But what we often think about is if it’s not good or who else should sit in that void to make sure there is a voice of values in some of those situations.

So, yeah, it’s come up. It comes up and particularly around the protection of children is something that we’re seeing and we’re quite sensitive to.

Henry Kaestner: Well, as a dad, thank you for that. And William, your dad of a young child as well. So I know that, you know, was one thing when my children are a little bit older, 14, 16 and 18. And that is something that’s absolutely front and center. But you’re investing also in the companies. They’re going to be the leaders in consumer technology in the future to sit that out. When you do have that conversation with the entrepreneur and you’re pounding the table, do they wonder why is you can say, actually, you know, we’ve got this kind of moral compass that comes from something about who we are? What does that look like about why you’re pounding the table or you judge judging or versus that’s a unique opportunity to witness. And yet I shouldn’t be prescriptive even in the asking the question about how that manifests itself. But tell us more about you being the sole person pounding on the table and being completely different than the rest.

Eric Kim: Yeah, I think it comes down to mission and purpose and really getting at the roots of it. And now you mentioned shadow mission, but often we’ll come back to speaking into the hearts and the hearts already there for these entrepreneurs. They want to do intrinsically something really positive for the role. That’s why they risked everything to become an entrepreneur to begin with. But speaking into that side of it. Right. And aligning around what is that remember back what was that original mission you started this company for? It was for the purpose of serving X or Y. What was that original purpose? And as opposed to kind of what I would call often is the shadow mission. And this is popularized by John Ortberg. And John, if you’re listening, I’m praying for you, buddy, and we’ve never met. But you bless me immensely as you. But.

Henry Kaestner: The people you have ever met, senior Pastor Amen, the church here in the Bay Area, great man of God.

Eric Kim: Absolutely. But this message around a mission, I think, is actually where there is light and where there’s an entrepreneur’s kind of intrinsic nature to want to do good. And then on the other side of that is the desire to be on the cover of Forbes is to be a billionaire, is to have growth and to break all these records and to have kind of the accolade associated with it. And if we bring it back, each speaking into it is not from a moralistic perspective like this is wrong or this is right is I actually remember why you started this company to became let’s remember that real mission and take everything else aside. Take aside the case study that you want written about you take aside all the accolades that you want to take, aside the pay and think back about that mission. And that is, I think when the heart becomes most vulnerable for them and we can speak into it and whether they know we’re our faith and we’re not shy about it, we don’t necessarily advertising on our sleeves either.

But it invariably does come up in almost every conversation with the entrepreneurs we work with. I think they understand where it comes from and where it becomes real for them. Whether they are faith or not is that they have this underlying mission, which I believe God has blessed them with, and then speaking it to that and tying it to the reality that they’re faced with to make sure they’re making that choice because they can serve one or two missions in that moment.

William Norvell: Yeah, it’s so good. So good. I actually heard that sermon like eight years ago and it has changed my life and ascended to so many people. It’s just amazing to think about, you know, go in one direction. And then you have, you know, he talks about how you can just be five degrees off. Right. So a lot of times people think you’re 180 degrees off and that’s how you you know, you see your way off the path. But in reality, it’s usually just a little bit you know, you’re probably using the gifts that God’s given you. You’re probably doing all the things pretty close to it, but you’re just doing it for a little different reason. He talks about giving a sermon. He’s like, that’s what I’m gifted to do. That’s what God give me to do, is that in my shadow mission is every day I go to sleep and I wake up and I hope it says amazingly good looking, eloquent man gives incredible sermon once again, right?

Eric Kim: Yeah, it’s. Yeah. Just those few degrees off. But in an extreme sense, the articulation a few degrees off. But those few degrees are in the direction of how and how does that manifest itself for you.

William Norvell: What do you feel like you wrestle with as you were thinking through that paradigm?

Eric Kim: Yeah, I thank you for asking that. You know, when we started in twenty fourteen, Tiwa and I looked at each other and said, this is not my firm, this is not a year for this is God’s firm and kind of made that sacred vow to begin with and had that really strong misalignment.

And I think that what is the shadow mission for all of us.

I’ll speak for myself being as an investor, of being someone that you measure yourself based on the investments you make your track record. Right. The multiple and the IRR that you have created, the wealth you have created for others, take a lot of pride in that.

And I think that the shadow mission is to, as a firm or as an individual investor is to be a billionaire, to raise a certain X amount of funds, to be on a list, to get kind of the accolade associated with that track record that you establish. And when we started, the firm firms like there was never a mission to create a track record. It was to have impact.

And so I think that is the constant battle. And what I love about how Ortberg popularized the notion of a shadow mission is that it’s not to say we’re going to all just be pure and wash ourselves or this is just to say it’s part of us. It is there. We can’t just cut it off.

It’s really acknowledging because part of my pride and my ego is to be the best in investing is to have the best rapper is to be one of the most successful venture capitalists. I know it.

It’s there. But naming it and making sure that that is not what I’m feeding on a day in, day out basis is so important.

But unless I name it up front and understand that that is my kind of natural tendency, I think that is really what has preserved our partnership, which is really important that Goodwater and actually helped it blossom because we’re not looking towards our own self fulfillment. We’re really looking towards the fulfillment of the mission itself. Now, we fall short all the time. I want to be really clear. It is so hard. Right. And it’s just like those magical moments when a brother like Henry with our Christian Accountability Venture Capital Group, you know, can hold you accountable to some of these things and to check your ego. And again, it’s just that constant battle that we’re in that I would just again, encourage everyone who might be listening to this. Like just what is that shadow mission of yours from the investment or from a secular business perspective?

And name it, don’t be afraid of it, but name it in the hopes that you can sometimes check it at just those crucial moments.

Henry Kaestner: I want to dove into that a little bit more because you’re on to something there that, of course, plays all of us as Christ, not just us as fund managers. It’s riffing on Proverbs 16, two and twenty one to all of a man’s ways seem pure to him, but his motives are weighed by the Lord. And every time I read that, I am so incredibly convicted and I have these shadow missions and the danger, if you have some level of success in the world and especially the Christ followers, that you can pretty much justify almost everything you’re doing in terms of trying to create value and trying to participate. And much that might be true. But you might have this 80 percent of what you’re doing can absolutely be defended as I’m investing for the flourishing of society. But when selfishness or the approval of others kind of seep in, it takes us further away from God. And so you’re doing and through the work of John Ortberg. But what you’re really showing here is that you have endeavored what you want just to be that much more conscious of it in the humility that comes with that. Let me just say that that’s different from what you hear from the typical Sandhill Road venture capitalist.

Eric Kim: I have to just thank you, Henry, in particular, because you’ve been a great mentor to me. And I go back and remember one of the most impactful things you said to me, which I think applies to anyone, regardless of where you might be on a wealth scale or where you are in life.

But the metaphor holds true.

And you said to me, Eric, never get liquid because you may have seen, I think, in some other folks lives just what happens when folks achieve some success in the notion of equity. Again, doesn’t matter where you are a scale, that notion is that you suddenly have like this freedom to just do whatever you want because you’ve got this kind of accumulated currency of here on Earth. You can just do whatever you want. And certainly it pertains to the wealthy. And I think it pertains to everyone just kind of mentally from a currency of feeling in need and on our knees for Christ and on our knees because we realize how dependent we are on the Lord and then going to being in a quote unquote, liquid situation. Where to your point, I do whatever we want. I got the resources I can hop on this plane. I can maybe get this really nice kind of luxury item here or things like that. And I’m not saying nice things are bad, not by any means. But at the same time, what happens is we’re disconnected. We’re going from not just being part of this world, but being of this world in that moment. And I just remember back when you told me about that, it’s just like a conversation we can all have and be very real about like what does that mean for us? You know, whether I’ve accumulated that like an extra few bucks through the stock market as a couple bucks a couple of weeks, like, does that suddenly change your mental state somehow and your attitudes towards the Lord and God? And I think particularly it’s just something we have to really be mindful in being in the investment world.

Henry Kaestner: I completely agree. That was very encouraging what you said. I need to give credit for that to Jim Bowen, who is the founder and CEO of First Trust Portfolios, a very early investor in Bano.

On the personal side, he just had set on a ministry board with David and came on board and we went out and met with him and he said, guys? And he dressed and looked a lot like Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko character in Wall Street. I’ll never forget. He said, never get liquid. I’ve seen it just destroy families. And on the flip side of that, and there’s the cautionary side, the investor that I look to as a mentor, just an incredible class act, really godly man. It’s a guy named Tom Darden. And Tom ran and continues to run Cherki Partners, two and a half billion dollars worth of real estate assets and huge land holdings in India and other places like that, really the best in the world. And what he does, which is to renovate what are called Brownfield’s real estate that has some sort of oil damage or something like that. And Tom rides a bike to work. He has immense wealth. But one of the things that really grounds him is not just his faith, but the fact that he is never liquid. Every single time he has any type of liquidity, he’s investing in the next entrepreneur that comes around. He has hundreds of investments and different technologies that are really making a difference in the world. And he does it every cent whenever they go public, he immediately sells the stock, not immediately. But he’ll tell you, you know, he looks for an opportunity, sell stock and then put it in another investor. And as a result, he never has the liquidity around him to think about buying another yacht. And in the process, because he’s investing in illiquid assets, either a private equity or venture capital fund like you all have, or an individual angel investments, he’s really creating part of the fabric of the enlargement of society. So thanks for having said that as encouragement to me, but I need to give credit to Jim Bowen and then to the guy, his model that out for me, Tom Dart also.

William Norvell: Let’s get. I usually steal John shuttle mission statement, but you already knew about it, so I can’t take credit for it. You’re like the one guy that listen to the deep tracks and, you know, really upsets me. ERG, I want to take one step back. You mentioned a phrase kind of in passing, but I think especially for our audience. Want to go. You said you were faith driven, venture capital firm. You know, and I know we’ve gone around the world a little bit on what that could mean in certain situations. But I want to give you a chance just to maybe from the highest level say, what does that mean to you? Do you look at investments differently? Do you work with your entrepreneurs differently, 100 different things? Do you work with your team differently? Just what does that mean to you? In the essence? Because I think there’s a lot of people listening that either are that or want to be that. And I think you have a really unique lens on what that means.

Eric Kim: Yeah, it’s evolving for us. And in 2014, we launched with this mission of empowering entrepreneurs who are changing the world and did everything we could to serve that mission in 2020. Amidst the pandemic of covid-19, amidst the pandemic of racism, which continues to burn across our nation and world, we added a sixth value of justice to our five preexisting values. And the reason I bring this up is that I would say that we launch in 2014 with our mission in 2020. I feel like we reemphasize or rediscover our purpose itself, and that is to bring justice and healing to the world. Again, the notion of justice is that being inspired by Michael six, eight, how do we bring justice to the world? And I think that is again, where the rubber meets the road for us. That is how we try to measure ourselves as being a corporate faith driven venture capital firm or being leaders of faith leading a venture capital firm. I think those are almost synonymous or I would hope they could be. I hope that who I am on Sunday is the same as who I would be on a Wednesday or Friday. And so that, I think is through the lens of are we really bringing justice to the world? We look at investments through that lens in the consumer techland. Is this really going to bring justice of some sort to the world? We recently looked at a company bringing telemedicine to the mental health space and it’s frankly heartwarming. Inspirers reinspire us every time we meet an entrepreneur that is so mission oriented and it aligns with his value of justice that we can actually bring some kind of healing to the world itself through our investments. It also makes us think a lot about our Elche base. We’ve been, as Henry mentioned, really, really fortunate to be at the scale we are in six years and.

Thinking about where do we take capital from, are they values align? Do they also align with our desire to positively impact the world? And it’s not just lip service, but something they’re willing to, you know, go to battle on our behalf for and then certainly our employees. I think that we’re a team of about 30 folks here in Burlingame. And how do we think about who we hire? Are they values aligned? And do they share this maniacal desire to change the world for the better? And I think that is our current manifestation. I think this will probably change and mature. But right now we feel like we’re in the thick of the battle right now. And so when we prioritize the various meanings of what a quote unquote, future of an investor could be in our current state, the current chapter in what we’re prioritizing is should be on the front line of really trying to push this impact, to bring justice, to bring healing to the world. That is kind of what is driving us right now and what we’re prioritizing within the spectrum of what that could mean. And then we’re doing it through our investments. We’re doing it through the people we hire and to help capital that we take on.

William Norvell: It’s amazing. That’s an amazing articulation of what that means to you guys and really appreciate that.

And your whole team would think that comes to mind as I try to get a little practical at some level.

As you know, a lot of people here are doing investments and obviously names don’t need to be included in this at all. Could you maybe walk us through a few investments that didn’t meet that criteria?

You know, companies that you saw that you said, I mean, gosh, if we weren’t us to invest in that, that’s going to make a lot of money and it’s going to be a success. And, you know, we may get a call about that from one of our LPs that ask you better have a good reason for passing on that one.

Eric Kim: You know, if this comes up for us in the financial services space quite a bit. So if you think about fintech companies broadly and Henry and I at William with you as well, we have been co-investors in some wonderful fintech companies that are really bringing kind of the banking to the unbanked, if you will, or bringing the access to the financial services, to the broader community, which is wonderful. I think where we’ve said no flat out to certain investments is where we feel like it’s taking an unfair break from the consumer with regards to lending, with regards to some of the interest rates that are being applied, there are rules of consumer protection out there already around what you can charge. But there are companies that get around it, I would say, through some questionable practices. And so that’s something where we have felt like this is a huge business opportunity and it’s very subjective. Right. My view of it is going to be very biased. But what’s quote unquote fair? What’s a fair interest rate to charge someone, for example? That’s what it comes down to ultimately. And I think that’s where, again, the perspective of the entrepreneurs become really clear about what side they are on in terms of where they would like to take things for the U.S. to maximize kind of short term profits, because it’s, again, very easy to justify. Well, if they were going to the black market or to some really suspicious kind of lending sources, it’s better than that. But those companies are in a position to both profit, but also to good to provide better services. I think where we’ve seen this really come in to answer your question directly, is in the lending space, sometimes we’ve had to say, you know, it’s just not worth it because it’s going to be very high, profitable company. But these practices just seem unfair. And again, I know it’s subjective, but that’s just how we feel about those situations.

William Norvell: No, that’s true. Yeah, absolutely. That’s super helpful. And yeah, unfortunately, God didn’t lay venture capital in Romans anywhere right now. There is some things you got to pray about and then you may come to a different conclusion than another investor sometimes.

Yeah. Who’s also driven by their faith. But staying close to you and what do you feel called to do is so unique and what inspires everybody, I think to figure out their own story as we unfortunately come to a close. One of the things we love to do is see how God’s word can transcend between our guest and our listeners. And we find it amazing to see how we hear from people that, you know, they just needed that verse today from that other person’s life and the intertwining of stories. And so what I’d ask you is, if you’d be so generous to share where God has you in his word, whether that is something you read today, something you’re in this season. Michael Jackson. I heard it could be that could be something else just to be great.

Eric Kim: Yeah. Thank you. And there were two things that came to mind when I was thinking about joining you today. And I think that the first is it’s just the Sermon on the Mount.

So take any part of that. But I think what I am constantly impacted is blessed are the. Or and what does that mean for us? I kind of purposely I’m calling this off because we’re in venture capital and kind of in this secular tailwind of investing and things are going up into the right and all these things.

But what does it mean to be blessed are the poor? And I would say that is something that that can mean a lot of different things for different people. For me, it’s to be poor in all things. But Christ. And I think that is just something that I hope that people can reflect about today, and obviously we’ve got a lot going on as a world politically and with the pandemic in among whatever state we’re in, we can be both kind of very sexually rich and also secondly, poor, but still not poor in the way that was being talked about in that survey. And how can we keep our hearts to really be rich in Christ and just to be enriched and Christ alone. So hopefully that makes some sense to folks and just kind of something that’s really top of mind for me.

Henry Kaestner: That’s beautiful. Thank you very much for that. And thank you for your time today. This is why we do this podcast, as you are talking about how you thought through the concept of shared ambition, how you able to listen to a sermon from a pastor and say, what does that mean in terms of my life and what does that mean for my fund, my partnership, my relationship with our peers and new companies to think about the holy ambition that you can have and being a technology investor and how to be able to shape culture and be able to mentor and lead entrepreneurs that are trying to understand what is their value base, what is their north star? Can they pick any North Star or is there actually a one and only one North Star? What does that look like? Your ability to faithfully and wouldn’t similarly witness to that in a very secular world is really outstanding, is unparalleled, and it’s why we do this podcast.

Thank you for sharing your story and it’s been awesome to see your success. And I love you. Also, just as we close out, just the way that you guys got back together at the beginning of the year and said, OK, let’s revisit our vision of values, are we missing anything and let’s celebrate the success we’ve had. And to a certain extent, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And you’ve had a lot of success. But how do we get sharper and how do we pray together about how God would use this fund in our lives? And that’s super encouraging. So thank you.

Eric Kim: Thank you so much. Such a blessing to be with you all today. My partner is listening to this. I just want to call my my brother Kiwa sharpens me every day and again with other folks around us has really been just so instrumental, got used to actually in my life. And I just want to say I love you, brother, and thank you.

Thank you so much for joining us on today’s show. We’re very, very grateful for the opportunity to serve the larger faith driven investor community. Hey, the best way for you to stay connected is to sign up for our monthly newsletter at Faith Driven Investor Dog. And while you’re there, we, of course, want to hear from you. We derive great joy from interacting with many of you. And it’s been very rewarding to see people join the discussion now from all around the world. But it’s also very important to us that you feel like this is your show and that you’ll help make it something that best equips you on your journey, one that you’re proud of and one that you’ll share with others.

This podcast, it wouldn’t be possible without the help from many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Formate Program Director Johnny Wil’s Music by Karl Carl Chigwell. You can see and hear more of his work that summer, Drugstore.com and Audio and editing by Richard Bahle of Cornerstone Church in San Francisco.