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 Obie McKenzie is the Vice-Chairman of Cordiant Capital and has served at some of the largest financial institutions like BlackRock, and managed hundreds of millions in assets. Obie joins us to talk about what it’s like living out your faith in the public square and the basic principles of Bible Economics. 

Episode Transcript

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Obie McKenzie: So then I began to fold that into the doctrine of Bible economics, which is where I am today, and it says a lot about all the components of what I think is a perfect investment plan. Invest in God’s word first, invest in God’s work second, and the combination of investing in God’s word and his work yields God’s wealth, which is eternal.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m here with my buddy, my partner, great friend, Luke Roush. Welcome, Luke.

Luke Roush: It’s good to be on. It’s going to be on as always, Luke.

Henry Kaestner: I think we’re actually recording this video because we’ve got Ovie McKenzie on and we’re going to be using a segment of this, I believe, for the Faith Driven Investor conference that’s coming up here. Not the time to eat this too much. But for those of us who are watching this on video, we’ve all known that we get to learn a lot about somebody from the background they have in Zululand. So what’s on some of these walls tells you a lot about themselves. You think at least, but you’ve got this epic, epic landscape behind you. What is that and why do you have it?

Luke Roush: It’s actually a landscape from where my wife’s family lives in Montana. So we got we had a piece of property out there for a while and just actually recently got rid of it. But it’s a wonderful part of the country and it’s a place that absolutely speaks to my soul. So I love going to the in-laws.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a good spot. Although I’ve been up there in Bozeman, too. We’ve got a really special guest today. We’ve got the first kind of multigenerational element to any of the podcasts we’ve done. We’ve gotten to know OBIS daughter Keisha from her incredible work at Clode Factory, one of our favorite companies ever, the way that they are able to blend excellence at scale and have a very thoughtful spiritual integration in their work. And Keisha is such a big part of that. We’ve got her dad today and I’ve known Ruby for a while now. It’s been several years and I got to know him in New York City. And Obie is and has been a leader on Wall Street for a long time. I mean, he’s a founding board member of the National Association of Securities Professionals. He is a guy that has been at the top tiers of Wall Street. A good friend of ours worked with Bob Dole for a long time. Bob’s been on the podcast, great encouragement to the space and the movement and the different conferences we’ve done. And he’s always said great things about Olby. There’s so many different, really cool things about Will to include the fact that at any second he can break down or break out in song. And it’s a beautiful thing. It’s an amazing thing. I’ve seen it happen before and if I could sing as well as it would be, I’d sing all the time too. And he’s got just a joyful heart. And what makes him the perfect guest for today is the fact that he’s very, very thoughtful about his faith and he’s very, very thoughtful about what the Bible says about money. He is and he’s been called this the Bible economist. So I can think of nobody better to have on the program would welcome.

Obie McKenzie: Well, thank you so much for having me this morning. And I wonder where you are. It’s a beautiful background there. So I’ve seen the mountains and now see flowers and a nice garden. You guys know how to do it.

Henry Kaestner: And now we’re very fortunate. I tell you, I’m doing this episode al fresco, as they say in Northern California. We’re recording this relatively early in the morning and the kids are still asleep. So I thought I’d go outside and hopefully I won’t be defined by some of these birds around here. Obbie you and I met in New York and I was introduced to you as the Bible economist. We’re going to talk a lot about that. But one of the things we like to do with all the guests we have on is to have a little bit of biographical sketch. Who are you? Where do you come from? What brought you to being a Bible economist? Just tell us a bit about it.

Obie McKenzie: I’m a Southern boy by birth. I was born in Tennessee to a family of sharecroppers in West Tennessee, and we moved to Indianapolis, Indiana, when I was a very young boy. And as an African-American family, many African-American families left the South because we couldn’t make a living picking cotton and moved north to find jobs. Many of us wound up in automobile factories in Detroit and some of the other industrial centers to escape the inability to make enough money in the cotton belt to make a living. And so I grew out of that background. My father and mother stopped in Indianapolis, Indiana, where I grew up. I was educated in a multicultural high school there. Shortridge High School, Indianapolis, Indiana, participated in many entrepreneurial or extracurricular activities to include, you know, sports, music. I was good in academics left there in the sixties and went to Tennessee State University in Nashville, Tennessee. And so I wound up going to Tennessee State, graduating there in nineteen sixty seven and took a job in the Human Resources Department at Bethlehem Steel, where I went around the country recruiting engineers, civil engineers, electrical and mechanical engineers from around the country, the major engineering schools. Someone told me while I was at Bethlehem Steel that I probably ought to consider Harvard Business School. And I said, help me over business. I couldn’t even spell it. So he helped me write my essays. And lo and behold, I was accepted to Harvard Business School in nineteen seventy. I came from a working class family where we really didn’t have a lot of money. We’re a very humble background. So the. Idea of going to Harvard Business School, which I had heard was a West Point of capitalism, was really kind of far fetched from my dinner table. But I did wind up at Harvard Business School and fell in love with the subject of finance, probably because we just never had very much money. But I wanted to understand what this thing was called, money. So I began to study finance. And even though I wasn’t a quant, I was very good at conceptualizing ideas. So I would start with the concept and work back to the formula. And I did pretty well and as a matter of fact, wound up tutoring a lot of my classmates in finance while I was there. And so I left Harvard Business School in nineteen seventy two and became the second African-American hired in the business department at Morgan Stanley. There was no such thing back in those days. Morgan Stanley was white shoes, rolltop desk, polished brown shoes with blue suits and doing spreadsheets with slide rules. And that’s where I started my financial life in a bullpen, working all night long on a spreadsheet, which if in fact it wasn’t correct, and the senior partner found a number in the middle of the spreadsheet the next day he would throw in the garbage. Even though you had been up all night with a slide rule, trying to put a spreadsheet together with a slide rule, a slide. Oh, yeah. I mean, these young people today, you know, they can push a button and do a spreadsheet and they have valuation models and algorithms and all of these valuation models and algorithms and spreadsheets were done with Cybele. Wow. Oh, yeah. And it better be right. And you better have the right attitude when in fact you presented it to a senior partner the next day after being up all night reading prospectuses at BAM Printing. You better come back to work the next morning by 7:00 with a smile on your face and don’t scowl if in fact you found something wrong with the spreadsheet because you were discarded and you’d have to start again. So I came up the rough side of the mountain in finance, but I’m happy that I did. It gave me discipline that I have been benefiting from since my days at Morgan Stanley. So I left Morgan Stanley through it the next oh, I say twenty. Twenty five years has been spent in a variety of positions in the financial services community to include commercial banking with Citibank International banking within what was chemical bank, which no longer is, as you know, Assistant Treasurer and New York Times newspaper, our senior vice president and Freedom National Bank of Senior Credit initial. I had my own broker dealer, McKinsey and Co., as the first African-American sole proprietor, broker dealer on the street. And then I left I joined Bob Dole at Merrill Lynch. Given that Merrill Lynch and Chase investors, I chase investors went to Merrill Lynch and Bob Dole was president of Merrill Lynch Investment Managers, and I raised money for Merrill Lynch investment managers. Along came BlackRock, bought Merrill Lynch investment managers. I went with that group as a managing director with BlackRock. BlackRock, as you know, is the largest institutional asset manager in the world. I’ve been blessed to be a part of teams to raise probably 30 to 40 billion dollars of institutional assets to be managed across a number of asset classes. I stayed in that for 18 years. I left BlackRock about two and a half years ago to become now. They said I was going to retire, but I tell them that Phobe is retired, asked where he’s buried. I don’t I just am not going to do that. So I was blessed to take a position with Portland and Capital in Montreal where I work now. I am a part of that. Basically, I put OBM McKensie LLC together as an advisory business and then I developed verticals for cash flow with the likes of property and capital, which is a infrastructure debt platform out of Montreal, and then established relationships with Stern Brothers, which is a hundred year old woman owned company in St. Louis. So I’m allowed to do brokerage and investment banking. So effectively, the model is owned by McKinsey LLC in the middle with a number of verticals where I provide advisory services, strategy, business development and a number of other things. Now, the intersection of Olby professionally and Bible economics started many years ago when I ran into Crown Ministries and I discovered that there are twenty three hundred scriptures in the Bible about money. And that really piqued my curiosity. Again, being from a humble background and a Christian family, the whole idea that the Bible actually had something to say about money was very interesting to me. So many, many years ago, I started studying the Bible. Became a Bible teacher at Canaan Baptist Church in Harlem. I was inspired by a preacher out on the West Coast named Fred Price, who recently passed away God rest his soul. And he inspired me. He was an expository Bible teacher who really took some of the themes and values out of his delivery in a way that I understood what it was saying, what it meant, and more importantly, what it meant to me. And so as I began to teach, I went to a retreat as a part of Canaan Baptist Church. And they had asked me as many years ago to ask me to teach some passages from the book of Galatians. And I said again, Oh, me, I really hadn’t done a lot of study. So I really started studying the Bible years ago and I became a Bible teacher. And then that exploded while I was attending Baptist Church. And I discovered that that the Lord given me a gift of expository teaching and that I had a gift of reading scripture and my daughter. I’ll never forget. She was 13. She used to carry my Bible to church and she used to listen to me teach. And she said, Daddy, what’s the difference in the way you teach in the rest of the people? What’s the difference in you and them? I said, Well, I believe it. They believe about it. And she said, Oh, that’s yeah, daddy. What’s that mean? I said, Well, I believe it down deep in my heart. I believe what I’m saying. I don’t just believe about it. It’s just not words. I believe it. And so it was very important to her. So I understand what the difference was and why people were reacting to the teaching that the Holy Spirit was giving me the way they were. I also learned during those periods that I wasn’t really doing the teaching. I had to make a fool of myself a number of times being so absolutely sure I was right, that I was wrong and that I was humbled by little old ladies who had been studying Bible for many, many years and were not, you know, Harvard trained. They were Holy Ghost strange. And they used to pop in the back of the church. It’s like, Brother McKenzie, we want to talk to you. You know what you said about this or that. And by the way, we’d like for you to keep your jacket on while you’re teaching. We don’t like you taking your jacket off while you’re teaching. So all those little old ladies used to straighten me out. Well, after that, I went to New York Theological Seminary for a minute, a hot minute. And interestingly enough, I wound up on the board later in years, New York Theological Seminary. But back in that time, I didn’t stay in seminary because I felt from what that particular seminary, if you didn’t have Jesus when you went, you certainly wouldn’t have Jesus when you left. And so they were so theological. I didn’t feel that there was any Holy Spirit there. I felt that there was a lot of learning there. But not a lot of burning there. And so that was many years ago, so fast forward I began to get more and more enmeshed in what the Bible had to say about money. And knowing that I lived in a money environment. And when I really started digging into the fact that there were twenty three hundred scriptures in the Bible about money and fewer than the 500 or so about faith and fewer than the 500 or so about love, and the fact that over 15 or thereabouts of Jesus’s parables use money as a subject to reveal spiritual truth. It really got me started on becoming what some people refer to as the Bible comes, and that’s who I am today. And what is that? A friend of mine who is the dollar? And Greg told me that the word I think the economy Amen economy keeper of the laws of the House stewardship. And so is I really began to dig into the word of God, which I believe is between Genesis and Revelations. I do believe that it is God breathed. I do believe that it is irrefutable and it’s very difficult for many to understand where I’m coming from if, in fact, they don’t believe that the Bible is irrefutable. Just so you know where I’m coming from, I believe that the word is the logush Jesus who stepped out of eternity into time to show us how we ought to live to be reclaimed to God, which is his purpose for Amen is to reclaim us back onto himself. And so I find that the road map for that reclamation is between Genesis and Revelations. And I walk by faith and not by sight. Now, over many years, what I’ve had to come to is that there was a difference between believing God’s word in my head and believing God’s word in my heart. So I have been for many years trying to close the gap between my head, my mouth and my heart. And so I have had to work real hard in making sure that what comes out of my mouth is what is in my heart, what we believe becomes what we say, what we say becomes what we do. What we do. Becomes our habits, our habits. Become our character and our character becomes our destiny. So somewhere along the line, I begin to understand that that was very important, what I believed, my point of view. And so I always begin with letting people know what my point of view is and where I stand. So they will know, frankly, whether or not we can communicate at all or whether we’re speaking. You know, I’m speaking English and they’re speaking French or we’re just speaking a different language. And so so I had to as I have matured, I hope I have become less arrogant about what it is I think I know or what I thought I knew. I realized that God is omnipotent. Yes. And for me, God is omnipresent is in all. And he’s a nation. He knows all. So if God knows all, how can I know anything? The only way I can know anything is to borrow from the all knowing library of the Great I am and hope that my ego and my little pea brain will let me comprehend what it is I’m trying to know and hoping that I listen and I’m listening to God and I’m not listening to. So this whole walk for me has been an effort to legalize, if you will, me to say, hey, look, pal, you got a Harvard degree. But I had to work on my other age, and that’s my Holy Ghost degree. I had to really understand. That when Jesus left the Earth and went back to sit at the right hand of Father God to make intercession for those of us who believe in him and that have confessed to him and have them in our heart, that he said, I have given them thy word. He gave us logush. The word in the beginning was the word or was God. The word was with God. He came to dwell among us and we looked at him but didn’t understand it. So he was and is the word the logos. And so I had to try to really peel back my ego to the point where I really believed what I was reading, that I really understood that it was God breathed and that it was good for instruction and was good for direction. It was good for everything. And so then I began to fold that into the doctrine of Bible economics, which is where I am today. And it says a lot about all the components of what I think is a perfect investment plan. Invest in God’s word first. Invest in guys work second and the combination of investing in God’s word and his work yields God’s wealth, which is eternal. That’s in God’s word, first, invest in God’s work, second, and the combination of investing in God’s word and his work will yield God’s wealth, which is eternal. The other thing I had to realize and really accept, so I’m sorry for, is really the beginning of Bible economics is very difficult to cross into the concept of Bible economics until you really understand that the Earth is the Lord’s, the fullness there of everything in it there is belongs to him, including you and me. And if we belong to him, and if the Earth belongs to him, if the world belongs to him, then he ought to have something to say about what we do with this stuff. And so in Matthew, six thirty three, I think it’s six thirty three. But you know where it is. It says, see first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added onto you. We’ve got it backwards. We seek the stuff rather than seeking God. First, the things will come. If, in fact you turn it around. There’s a countercultural relationship between man’s economy and God. This is what I mean. Man’s economy seems to be motivated by self-interest. Greed. The objective is money. God’s economy, on the other hand, is motivated by love. The objective is abundant life in the here and eternal life in the hereafter. Both economies are in pursuit of a contented life, but one gets you there and the other one does. Let me say that again. Two economies, man’s economy is motivated by greed, self-interest. The objective is money. God’s economy is countercultural to that is motivated by love. The objective is abundant life in the here and eternal life in the era. The Bible teaches seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And all these things will be added on to you. Matthew Luke. Six thirty eight years and it shall be given to you not yet given. It shall be given unto you. Good measure. Pressed down, shaken together and running over for as you give it shall be given unto you. God gives to you. So you can give. So you can give to you again. So you can give again. The irony of it all is Satan, who was kicked out of heaven after having been the head of the Praise Ministry, is here to kill, steal and destroy. That is his job on Earth. Every single day is to steal, kill and destroy. And the place he does that best is in your mind. That’s where he works. That’s why the Bible teaches to put on the full on the whole armor of God, the helmet of salvation, which is where your mind is. OK, you can put on a breastplate, you can do anything you can dress up in any anything you want. But if your mind is exposed to thoughts that are not of God, that’s where you get killed, because that’s where Satan gets you. If you don’t think that it’s important to fight back with scripture, look what Jesus did. When Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights exposed to Satan, he was hungry. So he’s vulnerable. And Satan said, Hey, I got you. Why don’t you come on up here? I’ll give you some our money. I’ll give you stuff. Jesus responded with scripture. He responded with Deuteronomy eight three. He said, man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, there’s Deuteronomy eight three. Whoa. You mean to tell me Jesus was using scripture to fend off attacks from Satan? Well, if he does, why shouldn’t we? If it’s about what would Jesus do, we see what he did? He used scripture and then when Jesus left and went back to Father God. To make intercession for you and me, he said, I have given them that word, that word is true now that rolls into what the Bible has to say about money, because the truth is irrefutable, because scriptures irrefutable. And by the way, when we doubt the fact that scriptures irrefutable, we’re questioning, frankly, God’s integrity because it’s either true or it isn’t. So I have to ask myself, are you challenging the integrity of God when you don’t trust that the word is true? I think yeah. I think yeah, so when I read Deuteronomy eight, 18, where it says that God gives you the power to get wealth, that is covenant might be established upon the face of the earth. What covenant? God gives us wealth, so we might do is will on Earth as a true statement for the covenant relationship that we have with him, and that is regardless of what we do in business, whether it is budgeting, saving, investing or giving, that’s my four pillars for business activity budgeting, saving, investing and giving, budgeting, saving, investing and giving. Given it shall be given under UV good measure. So as you give, it will be given unto you. And that’s what he wants us to do, because we’re walking by faith in the reality of his word, which is motivated by love, which means to give and not to get. And that’s you know, I could go on about the scriptures that are Bible, the silver and the gold belong to God. I don’t be too impressed with yourself again. Deuteronomy Sikhi, first Matthew

Henry Kaestner: Obbie, as you talk about Deuteronomy 18 and talk about managing the wealth that God has entrusted us with for his purposes. Help us understand a little bit more practically about what does that look like? What does that look like in your life? I think that at some level and to be clear, it’s awesome to hear you unpack it and it just is more of a conviction for me about God’s word and then also just the opportunity we have to to participate in what he’s doing with Matthew. Six thirty three. But when we get to practical purposes about storing that wealth, what do you think that looks like? And maybe the answer is that it’s not always the same for each person. But how do you as an individual,

Obie McKenzie: I can I can apply that. And I’ve said very simply, I believe that there are multiple gifts in the body of Christ as you all the Bible scholars know that there’s a list of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the body. There are a couple in the first Corinthians, one in Ephesians and one in Romans. And the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to edify the church. And one of the gifts is we know the gifts of helps, prayer, et cetera, et cetera, sometimes gifts of prophecy, gifts of preaching, all these different gifts. But everybody has a gift, our gifts. And so I have been in search of my gift, my gift. I have a gift of teaching and a gift of help and a gift of song. And so I take those gifts to try to line up with God’s will for my life. So one has to ask oneself. What is God’s will for my life? What is my purpose? Every one of us has a purpose. We had a purpose before we were born, Jeremi 9/11. We were destined to do certain things while we were here. And we are all either locally or otherwise in search of what that purposes and when. What we’re doing lines up with God’s purpose for our lives. There’s no traffic in the lane. You will know because you’ll know when you’re nowhere. Now, what does that mean to me? Practically? I’ve spent over 50 years in financial services and 30 plus years studying Bible. And part of my purpose is exactly what’s happening here is to take the message that God has given me and give it back. But on a practical level, and this is practical. I am vice chairman of a infrastructure debt platform in Canada which makes loans that have impact on people’s lives to multigenerational families that are not being banked by the banks and don’t want to do private equity offerings. And so at the table, when I structure a deal in my or help to structure a deal, my concerns are whether or not it has the quantitative metrics to reflect an impact on the lives of those who are less fortunate. For example, I’m supposed to have an interview today, frankly, about this hour with Advanced Communications given to Communications is a satellite company out of London. It was mission. Part of his mission is to get into rural Africa with Internet connectivity to unlock the genius in the minds of those who do not. Africa has millions and millions of people, and there are millions of them that do not have broadband connectivity. And cable does not reach certain rural regions. And as a result, the satellite is probably a more effective way of connecting broadband to people who really need to be supported educationally, agriculturally, economically, etc.. Without that connectivity, the genius that is there is not enough. That’s just one practical way that I am currently involved. I’m an impact investor now and I have taken my financial skills from my fundamental finance and gotten involved in initiatives that have a double bottom line and they’re not mutually exclusive. You do not have to leave your IRR and your MLSE off the table when in fact are engaged in business activities that have a social impact that’s in line with what God would want to happen in as much as you’ve done it to the least of these, you’ve done it unto me. Jesus peeps are the least. As everybody and so to the extent that on a practical level, I can make some modest contribution by bringing a different way of thinking about a transaction to the table, then I have fulfilled part of my purpose and I’ve taken some of the gifts that God has given me and planted them on a practical level, i.e. to produce. I are an animal. I see and do it again. But at the same time bringing other people along to benefit from that. So the Cordie Capital Vice Chairman there, and I am also being interviewed for a non executive board directorship at a Vontae Communications, and they’re both situations that allow for impact. And I could go into several other practical examples of what that can mean,

Luke Roush: what your encouragement, just as I think about biblical economics and just the way that Wall Street is perceived maybe from the outside. I mean, 20 years at BlackRock at the most senior level of what Wall Street does with a real deep understanding of what the Bible says about money and now identifying kind of this new evolution. Let me ask a question. How would you see impact investing having changed over the last 10 years? And then what would your encouragement be to other managers who maybe find themselves where you were 15, 20 years ago in a key role and a key bank? What would your encouragement to them be to practically implement in terms of how their faith manifests?

Obie McKenzie: I think that the whole concept of purpose driven investing has evolved enormously over the last 10 years. I think that more and more people have lived in corporate America long enough to feel that the whole idea of looking for a purpose, for example, Larry FDE, who was my boss, he was chairman and CEO BlackRock has written to many investors about purpose and about impact. I mean, his letters go out every year. And one of his most significant, most impactful letters as recent as the last couple of years was on purpose. And so I think there’s a much more corporate conversation about purposeful living that’s occurred. You said use 10 years as a timeline, but it’s still evolving. Now, of course, we when purpose and impact and ESG at the market, there are always charlatans around who use that as a catch word to attract capital and to continue doing what they’re doing. And we call that impact washing or FDE washing. But as we’ve evolved, we have learned to identify metrics and keep records of those metrics and checks and balances on the metrics to know who really is an impact investor and who isn’t. So if you ask me how it’s evolved, it’s continuing to evolve. You’ve got your back there. You had the unresponsible investor principles, and then you have the establishment of Gen Global Impact Investors Network and then Ierace and then the IFC and then sustainability jumped in there. And then people started debating the difference between ESG impacts and sustainability. So it is a road under construction, but it’s a good road because now there are more and more people that are talking about it. And given that I’ve had a heart for the right side of my being as well as the left side, they stepped into my wheel well, which is, you know, caring about somebody else other than just myself.

Luke Roush: Thank you. That’s helpful. I think that your commentary around impact ESG and how some of that has evolved in the last 10 years, it’s become more professionalized. And it’s also a topic that I think a lot of CEOs are now paying attention to. And you know, how BlackRock thinks about ESG is oftentimes similar, but oftentimes different than other firms. And I think there’s more and more understanding of how different capital providers think through those issues and things that they care about that maybe once or we’re not on the radar. So it’s a hugely timely topic.

Obie McKenzie: The one thing I skipped over that really has been a major milestone for me in that is I learned that Obbie was depending on the size of his stock portfolio and for one K to represent security for me. And as that sometimes will ebb and flow and occasionally it will dissipate in a big way between deals or between situations. And what I’ve had to learn first, I didn’t know just how much I was depending on my phone when it came to the level of my savings, my investment portfolio for security. And during those times when I didn’t know what to do and I was crying out in my heart for help from Jesus Christ, I learned as my bank account went down my trust level, I don’t know how I could possibly feel better when my bank account went down than it was when it was a lot more robust. And in the middle of that battle, I learned to trust Jesus. I learned to trust God. Elementum know, I found out that the Lord is my shepherd is a real personal, that he is my shepherd. He may give me. He restores my soul. And if I would bungee jump. With the reality of the word that he’s got me, that he will supply all my needs according to his riches and glory by Praxis is that I would be freer, that I would feel more secure, that I would have more peace in knowing in my noer for real in my heart that he got me. He got me within my bank account. Is up or whether it’s down? He got me in, so that, frankly, is a a recent phenomenon that I thought I’d already I’d already jump that hurdle. I thought I had, but I hadn’t really until I got smacked a little bit again. And I prayed and called out to him and he answered, I heard him. I’m a walking testimony that God answers prayer. And if you will trust him and trust what his word says is an incredible wealth. My wealth is in my relationship with him. My wealth is in how much I can trust to have my faith in him as my well.

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What a thrill it must be to get a call from Jerry Jones and be told you’re going to get to play professional football with the Dallas Cowboys. That was the case for Jaylon Smith in 2017. Even at a young age Jaylon was noticed for his athleticism and talent, being named “Mr. Football” in the state of Indiana and then winning the spot as Linebacker his Freshman year at Notre Dame. Jaylon joins us today to talk about how he overcame what could have been a career ending injury and what he’s doing off the gridiron to inspire change and invest in the next generation of rising entrepreneurs.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

William Norvell: Can you walk us through that moment? We don’t have many people in the show that have gotten a call from specifically, as you mentioned, the greatest franchise in one of the most well known owners, if not the most well-known owner in the game as well. What was that moment like when Jerry called? I mean, a face of him pop up on the caller ID and you were like, oh, my gosh, that’s him

Jaylon Smith: when I was in actually Dr. Jerry yesterday, by the way. But I just walked in to my Draupadi and I was selected maybe like seven minutes after I walked in because I was third pick in the draft on that second day. So it was like boom, boom. But when draft started, I sat down by my brother, Rod Smith, who was actually playing for the Cowboys at the time. Soon as I sat down, maybe a minute later, I got a call and it’s two one four two one four number. That’s the Dallas number. Mind you, I had surgery by the Cowboys physician four months prior. So they had a little more inside information on my healing process and the sting operation and things of that nature. But to see that it was a two one four, no understanding that it was me and my brother’s dad’s favorite team, America’s team, the Cowboys. And then the fact that he was on the team, it was like, wow, I’m going to get a chance to play with my brother.

William Norvell: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor, we are so excited that you took the time to join us today, to take the time out of your day to listen to what God’s people are doing through investing throughout the world. And we are just so excited about our guests today, were so excited about the conversation that we get to have. And we’re pleased that you joined us, grateful that you’re here, always grateful for our audience coming in. And today we get the incredible, incredible, exciting opportunity to welcome in Jaylon Smith from the Dallas Cowboys. How are you, Jaylen?

Jaylon Smith: And I am blessed, definitely blessed and highly favored. I’m thankful to be able to speak with you today. This wonderful man.

William Norvell: Well, we’re grateful for you and we’re grateful for what you’re doing. We’re going to get into that a little bit. And as our audience knows, one of the first places we would love to start this program is shocking for our audience. I went to Alabama, so the fact that I’m not going to start with a football conversation is a big thing, but I’m going to save our audience that right now, Jalen was was a star at Notre Dame and a first round draft pick. And we’re going to get to that, I’m sure, in a story. But we would love to start there. Jalen, tell us a little bit. Who are you? Where did you come from? How did you end up where you are today and how is God walking alongside you?

Jaylon Smith: Yeah, Jalen Smith, linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys Amen. There was a brother from the Hoosier State born and raised in Fort Wayne, Indiana. My old dad saved my family’s from Uniontown, Alabama. So he’s Alabama fan. So definitely some connections there. But I believe and go to Macfarlan, Delmar is just an incredible experience is being from a basketball state. But and we play some football as well there and especially out there and stuff in Indiana. There’s just been a wonderful journey answering my sixth year in the National Football League. I’ve dealt with adversity, I’ve dealt with adversity, and I’ve been able to to have a clear view. I’ve been able to have a focused, determined belief in ERG dreams. That’s really what helped me get to where I am today and all the battles that I’ve kind of endured and persevered through, all by the grace of God and then putting in work. So I’m just like I said, I’m happy to be here today to speak with you all and just to have a conversation. And it’s this is dope

William Norvell: cos it’s fun and tell us a little bit. So obviously you’ve got the athletics and we’re going to jump into that, you know, where did faith and work come into your world? Where did God kind of push you down your professional journey that, you know, obviously we’re going to get into what you’re doing on the side of being a professional football player, which takes a lot of time. Where did those intersections happen in your life to where you started seeing that there could be good holy work in the marketplace?

Jaylon Smith: I’ve always wanted to be an entrepreneur, probably since I was about 11 years old and I fell in love with the business aspect and not having a lot of knowledge of it, but just understanding that that’s a way that I could be able to shed light and put smiles on people’s faces through that education. It’s all about freedom, financial literacy, the financial freedom, and develop some mentors along the way. Our first mentor, Michael, later became my mentor since I was 13 years old. Now he’s my business manager, operating out of a family office that he owns, Colibri Sports Advisors, which helps athletes become entrepreneurs and run themselves like entities, providing governance, expert partners, et cetera, et cetera. For me, my cousin Eugene Parker rest in peace, who’s arguably the greatest NFL agent of all time. He represented D-R Sanders. He represented the Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, Curtis Martin, Ray Lewis, Rob Watson, a bunch of guys, Hall of Fame players. And he kind of taught me how to understand the value of cost and just through platforms, being able to gain access to quality relationship quality, deal flow through going through an amazing high school sports high school where we won four state championships, by the way. And then. Wow, four for four. Yeah. And then headed to Notre Dame to be a part of the Global Institute, you know, in the in the transition to play for the Dallas Cowboys, America’s team, which is the most valued franchise in all of sports, any sport. So all of these things I’ve learned from those of the most high, I’m a sponge and I soak everything in and it’s all about minimizing the mistakes and growing that. So it’s an everyday process for me. Like I said, I’ve always wanted to be an entrepreneur and God has blessed me with the gift to be able to play the game. I love that I’ve been playing since I was seven years old. So it’s a wonderful thing that.

William Norvell: That is and I’m curious, was there something specific that triggered you wanting to be an entrepreneur at such a young age? I don’t I don’t think that’s super common. You know, you mentioned, you know, just really 10, 11 years old. You know, did you start a business? Did somebody shed light on that journey? Is there something specific or was it just kind of in you and you just felt that from the Lord?

Jaylon Smith: Yeah. Something that was just in me, honestly, and developed through time. My mom always preached to me on being observant, always seeing through a different lens and then through work with my mentors, just learning how to think, understanding that it’s OK to think the concept, the value of that is so critical and crucial to our growth as humans. You know, I’m just blessed to know that I’m on the right path and I’m just constantly seeking peace.

William Norvell: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I want to transition a little bit and hear how, you know, a setback really could have shaped, you know, your life a little bit. And you’re senior in college. I feel like I was watching this game. I just remember this. You know, you were projected top five draft pick. You know, everything in the world was going incredibly well. And then you had a season ending injury, which I remember. Right. It wasn’t even season ending. I mean, this was probably going to hold you out of your first year of the NFL as well. Yes, it was a devastating injury. How did that change you? How did that change your view of life? Could you walk us through that season of life?

Jaylon Smith: Really just understanding that, you know, injury is a threat. You know, when you’re playing the last gladiator sport that I play in football is something that I was definitely aware of, but I didn’t think that I would get hurt in my final collegiate game. Fiesta Bowl is a bowl game. Notre Dame versus Ohio State had no intentions of our understanding that that would be when I would get hurt. But it was a career threatening injury, ACL, LCL. But the severity of it was I have peroneal nerve damage, which gave me drop foot so I couldn’t lift my foot up for about a year. While still I stepped out on faith. I still entered the NFL draft. I was going to be a top three pick. And, you know, because of the injury, I got word that I would fall out of the first round and probably be drafted the next day. I didn’t know when or where I was going to be drafted, but I just needed one team to take a chance on me and I would make sure that they got their return on their investment. And that’s what the Cowboys did. The Cowboys took a chance on me, and I’m just happy to continue to be delivering in that moment. It was all about my clear view. It was all about my clear view, which is my core values. It’s how I live my life to walk through life. And it’s broken down into three pillars focus, vision of determined belief in ERG dreams. I’m a focused vision is just about having a laser beam focus, really being able to see clearly what you want to accomplish, where you’re trying to go. What’s that next step being in the present, the determined belief is the second pillar, and that’s about a belief capacity. It’s about a belief in God that he has your back on my belief in yourself, a belief in others, understanding that there are people out there who do believe in you and who are writing for you. And then finally, that third pillar is about ERG dreams. It’s about sweat equity. It’s about how bad do you want it? It’s about, you know, what work are you willing to put in, you know, to accomplish that. So I think everyone should have a clear eyed view in all aspects of life, whether you’re a firefighter, whether you’re a stay at home mom, whether you’re a janitor doesn’t matter the profession. Everyone should have a clear view. It’ll help you persevere. It’ll help ground you for sure. So that’s how I live my life. That’s really what’s helped me by the grace of God. I’m just thankful that.

William Norvell: BAM Amen, yeah, it had to be an amazing time, I remember watching the draft, too, I love the draft and I remember when they said you were going to go early second round and just, you know, it was a big story. It was a big story that they took a chance on you there and you have earned their return made Pro Bowl. I mean, I’m curious, though, can you walk us through that moment? We don’t have many people in the show that have gotten a call from specifically, as you mentioned, the greatest franchise in one of the most well known owners, if not the most well known owner in the game as well. What was that moment like when Jerry called? I mean, the face of him pop up on the caller ID and you were like, oh, my gosh, that’s him.

Jaylon Smith: Well, I was actually talked to Jerry yesterday, by the way, but I just walked in to my Draupadi. And I was selected maybe like seven minutes after I walked in because I was third pick in the draft on the second day. So it was like boom, boom. But then draft started. I sat down by my brother, Rod Smith, who was actually playing for the Cowboys at the time. Soon as I sat down, maybe a minute later, I got a call and it was two one four two one four number. That’s the Dallas number. Mind you, I had surgery by the Cowboys physician four months prior. So they had a little more inside information on my healing process and the sting operation and things of that nature. But to see that it was a two one for no understanding that it was me and my brother’s dad’s favorite team, America’s team, the Cowboys. And in the fact that he was on the team, it was like, wow, I’m going to get a chance to play with my brother, you know? So that was just the first thing that I was about through through by to answer the phone is Jerry Jones. And it’s like everybody hears about Jerry Jones. But, you know, you get a chance to really talk to him. It’s like, OK, is extra confirmations.

William Norvell: That’s amazing. It’s like dreams coming true on top of dreams coming true not only to the NFL, but with your brother to the Cowboys. What an amazing story that God was weaving there. And, you know, especially through crisis. And, you know, unfortunately, I found in my life that God speaks the loudest during crisis sometimes and during struggles. Is there one or two things maybe as you reflect back on that season that you could share with our audience that maybe God was teaching? You might have been in your points earlier. So apologies if I’m asking you to repeat things, but just wonder if there’s a couple of things that God torture during that time that you might want to share.

Jaylon Smith: God taught me faith. He taught me resilience. He taught me patience the most patience. He taught me awareness. He taught me how to be present because I had no choice and I had to face those. That was the first time, the first love of my life football was taken away from me. Honestly, I have never been hurt. I’ve been playing since I was seven years old. That’s when I made the decision that I was going to play in the National Football League. So. I’ve been laser being focused on this dream, so really I learned a lot and I’m still learning to this day because constantly healing, constantly work in this world. There’s so many things that has happened in this world in the past year, year and a half that you just got to make sure your your faith is right. You’ve got to make sure your belief capacity is right. And like I said, what helps me is my clarity.

William Norvell: Amen Amen. Well, I’m going to move over to investing a little bit. You know, I would love to hear just you know, investing is sort of taking the world by storm. I feel like it’s happening in a lot of different spheres. I feel like every day, even this morning I saw Kevin Durant invested in this and Tom Brady invested in a crypto exchange with Jazelle FDX. I’m curious about investing in the NFL. I mean, you can give us some insight here. Is this something people are talking about a lot or is it still a niche industry? Tell us more

Jaylon Smith: is definitely a niche industry, but the conversation is being brought up more. A lot of players are understanding that our careers are short and there’s life after football and there’s power and having more than one revenue stream of income. It’s OK to be more than an employee, but it requires work and requires education. It requires trust in a team because you can’t do it alone. We don’t have the time to do it all on our own due to our main thing, which is employees in our profession. But there’s so much room for growth out here that I think it’s just a matter of time before, you know, everybody’s on board with it. So we’re learning. We’re learning access matters in equity matters. Equity creates freedom. So I’m happy with where we’re headed. We just got to keep growing. You got to keep digging.

William Norvell: Absolutely, and I want to switch now to the Minority Entrepreneurs Institute, and I know we got connected through a good friend, Jay Hein, at Sagamore. Well, I know he’s been working with you a little bit on this. Could you tell us a little bit? Tell our audience, where did the idea for Minority Entrepreneurs Institute come from? How did it get started?

Jaylon Smith: Really, like I said, becoming an entrepreneur and having this access to all quality deal flow, doing a lot of alternative investing, getting us some deals as an LP, as a GP, getting some returns, getting dividend payouts. As I’m experiencing all of this now, I was just thinking to myself, how can I provide this access or this create a marketplace for people who look like me that don’t have the Notre Dame background or connection or the Dallas Cowboy affiliation and connection? A platform, a huge platform that I have. There’s so many people that look like me that that have great and tremendous ideas that can add value to our world. But they don’t have the access to financial funding, to mentorship, to help with putting together their infrastructure or strategic execution plan. You know, I was just thinking about how can I help provide that I to help fix this scandal. There’s an educational and a wealth gap that exists in this world today. And that’s why I created the Minority Entrepreneurship Institute to help close the economic and educational gap.

William Norvell: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. And could you tell us a little bit more? What are the initiatives? You know, what is the program like? And just take us down a layer deeper.

Jaylon Smith: Yes. So there’s two parts. We have educational seminars and we have venture coaches, venture Pitchess business targeting type of vibe and really investing in the black and brown alad next community. We’re opening up marketplaces each year. We’ve opened up Indiana, we’ve opened up Texas. And this year we’ll be opening up the Florida marketplace, having our third annual venture bitch, July 9th this year in Tampa, Florida. It’s going to be an amazing event where last year we raised a total of six hundred thousand dollars invested in the five companies, five vegetable companies. The Jaheim has been amazing in helping me with the structure of helping me with doing the due diligence with him and his amazing group, Sagamore Institute. You know, to find our goal is to find vegetable companies that impact investors can believe in investing. So it’s the marketplace will growing myself. I’ve committed two and a half million dollars over the next ten years towards this. So I’m acting as a lead investor. I’m a believer and we’re getting some great traction. So definitely anybody that wants to be involved here more, please reach out. Like I said, we’re just trying to help close the economic and educational gap that exists in this world. So it is really a bust

William Norvell: and we’ll link to everything here. So, you know, if you want to find more information, that should be easy to find and always and let us know if you can’t and you want to learn more to get in. So we’ve had a few guests coming at this from different angles. I’d love your view. What are the needs of minority entrepreneurs? You know, that you’re hoping to be able to give access to how are they different at some level or are they not? And they just need more notoriety. Just walk us through some of the people you’ve met and how you’re trying to structure the program and what exactly you’re trying to provide that maybe the world is not given right now on creativity.

Jaylon Smith: These companies and people that we’re investing in, they have vegetable companies. They’ve either started or they’re beginning to start and they have an amazing plan, a team behind them, a vision on where they want to go. And you just need some assistance. And we all need help in some form or shape. There’s just been a huge lack in the black and brown community. So I’m just trying to fill that void, that scandal. These are all people with great ideas, great companies that are fixing to be successful. They just need help. So there’s no real format other than that. There’s all different companies that we invest in, all creativity. There’s no real shot. It just has to be one of your goals, has to be able to really make community impact. So my team does a great job of helping really do due diligence on each deal and each company. So it’s definitely a team effort. Sure.

William Norvell: That’s amazing and that’s amazing. And so, you know, as we come to a close, Jaylen, unfortunately, we have to come to a close with love always. Our closing question is we’d love to hear, you know, kind of where you are right now in your life and what God might be teaching you. You know, if there is specific that just sort of in the season that you’re walking through.

Jaylon Smith: Yes, God has been teaching the truth through me. It’s extremely important for me to operate off the truth when I’m truthful in every aspect. It brings peace to my life. And that’s really what I’ve been focused on, especially these first two quarters is just peace, a peace of mind, a wholeness as a human being, and just doing things the right way and being myself really exploring and tapping into my creativity and just being someone’s who’s doing right. So that’s that’s really where I’m at. I’m thankful God is using me. And I love

William Norvell: Amen. Thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a gift. We do encourage everyone to check out Emii and what’s going on. Like I said, we’ll have links there. But just please check out what Jaylen and his team are doing. And if you want to get involved, get involved. Don’t stop. Push forward and make that call and get involved in what the great work they’re doing.

Jaylon Smith: Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Besides.

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Convinced that Christians would better handle their personal finances if they were counseled objectively with the highest technical expertise and from a Biblical perspective, Ron Blue founded a financial planning firm in 1979. Today that firm manages $13.5 billion in assets for more than 10,000 clients nationwide. Ron joins us to discuss why he thinks stewardship is just as much about investing as it is giving. 

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Ron Blue: All of a sudden in five years, I had a national clientele, a rich, wealthy Christians who wanted to give, and that’s how the whole thing got started. And today, there’s ten thousand clients at that firm Serve’s that are giving away one hundred and fifty million a year. They’re managing about 12 billion in assets. And I look back and I realize how God prepared me to do what I did. I can take zero credit for it.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome to a special edition of the Faith Driven Investor podcast, From time to time, we’ll get involved in a broader definition of investing. And this is one of those times when we think about storing the wealth that guys entrust us with. Much of that is going to take place with investing in mutual funds and in stocks and bonds and venture capital, private equity, all the different topics that we have rolled out over the course of the last year and a half or so, over 75 or 80 podcasts with speakers like Frank Chen from Andreessen Horowitz, Andrew Stevens. And gosh, we’ve had just about every asset class. But lest we think that it’s just about investing that God cares about, which is different, of course, in a way, a lot of people think about it, the reverse of that as people just care about giving. But since we and you is listening to this podcast, subscribe to more of this one pocket mentality, that is we stored these assets. We have an opportunity to participate in the work that God is doing. We need to, from time to time, start focusing a bit on the giving side as well, and in some cases were called to go ahead and make that investment into the private equity fund or into the mutual fund. And in some cases, we’re called to be faithful to the giving opportunity that’s right in our midst. And so every once in a while, maybe every 10 episodes or so, we’ll get into that a little bit more deeply. And whenever we do that and do that with one of my best friends in the world, Darrell Heald, you probably know enough about my story by now to note, at age 28, I came to faith. At age 38, I had what I call my born again again moment when I met Darryl. And Darryl asked me the simple question, Henry, why do you give? And that sent me into God’s word. And it just changed my life. So whenever we have an opportunity to talk about this, I’d like to bring Darryl back on board. We’ve been partners in ministry and invested in so many things since that time 13 years ago, which I’m super grateful for today. We’ve got an incredible guest in Baila. So before I go any further, Darryl, welcome. Welcome to the program.

Darryl Heald: Thanks. And good to be on the program. And I’m super excited. You could have just skipped over any of my intro. Let’s go straight to our guests.

Henry Kaestner: Well, before we do that, we’re going to go almost straight to our guest from Blue. And Ron, by the way, welcome to the program. It’s awesome. Have with us back again

Ron Blue: a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I’d love talking to you guys.

Henry Kaestner: You’ve always been such a great encouragement to me talking about this, these formative experiences that God has put in my life in these really important relationships. Ten years ago, we started Sovereign’s Capital and it was Darryl that introduced us to you, and you went ahead and got it right away and said, I’ll do anything I can do to help you. And we asked if you’d be on our board of advisors and if we could get this guy who’s probably the biggest name in Christian investing and the generosity with which you said, yeah, absolutely. You know, if any way I can help you and you put my face on your website and just tell other people that you’ve talked to me and that blew me away. It blew me away. I’ll never forget. I’ve told you before, but I’m going to tell you and our listeners that again, as we’re getting ready, though, I was taking certain liberties with our relationship and I showed up this podcast nine minutes late. And what our listening audience may not know is that we on occasion will have several of these podcast recordings we do in sequence. And we just got off the podcast interview with Dallas Jenkins, who is the guy behind the chosen, and we’re talking about him. And he had a message. He also has known Ron, interestingly, and this is something Ron, I don’t think you knew, is that Ron hired Dallas well before he was famous to direct a video that Ron did, which I think is super cool. But one of the things that came up in the interview we had with Dallas was that somebody had come to him early on in his career and said Dallas. And I was on a Facebook post on a video he’d done, and he wasn’t sure that the film they had done had been received as well as he had hoped. And somebody from Romania four o’clock in the morning said, Dallas, your job is not to feed the 5000, it’s just to supply the five loaves and two fish. Now, they’re just beginning with what you have. And then, Ron, as I was explaining interest, apologizing for being late, you shared an anecdote that was very similar to that. And whenever I hear those repeated themes, it makes an impact in my life. It makes me feel like God is trying to tell me something and maybe as well. And you were talking about a time when you thought you showed up to an event and it wasn’t as well received. Or maybe there weren’t as many people there as you would have wanted in your bride. Told you what

Ron Blue: she said, Ron. She said God said feed the sheep, don’t count them. And it changed my whole perspective. You know, it just it took away the whole idea of how big the audience don’t make any difference. It may be an audience of one because you don’t know who God is going to put it in the audience and you don’t know what he’s going to say to them. So my job just to be faithful to deliver his message and he takes it from there however he wants to. So don’t count them. Just feed them. And appreciate. Henry, you’re feeding. Flock here of people that are really becoming serious, you know, when you get serious about your money, you’re serious about your faith, and when you put those two together, that’s a big deal. That’s why Jesus spoke so much about money, because it’s the greatest barrier to my relationship to the Lord. The God of Mammon steals that every single day. And we live in a culture that I think is the most difficult to live in because there’s so many temptations. And I don’t mean that in a condemning way, but I say, you know, I didn’t even know what I needed till I went to the mall and that and there’s billions of dollars being spent every day trying to make me discontent. And a lot of it gets through.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m still with you.

Ron Blue: It’s hard to live in this culture and have the proper perspective on money. So I’m delighted that you’re doing what you’re doing.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you. And to your point, we’re trying not to count our listeners in, but they know all three of them know that I love them. And Mr. Tony

Ron Blue: Abbott, your wife doesn’t count

Darryl Heald: two of them. Love I love.

Ron Blue: I’ll tell if

Henry Kaestner: you are one of those two people, though. You’ll know that we’ve had Ron on before. We featured Ron and one of our conferences, and he weren’t our first ever lifetime achievement award. And so some number of the folks listening to this are going to understand some of who you are in your background. But before we get into that, I really want Daryl to guide our conversation today because it’s something that’s so near and caught to who he is and and the ministry that guys got him on. But give us a flyover. Who is Ron Blue? What have you done? What is God done through you in your career? Bringing us up to speed real quickly and then going to go real deep on generosity?

Ron Blue: Well, can it real quickly. I turned 79 this year just a few months ago, and I was fine with that until I realized that I was living in my 80th year. Then I began to feel really bad

Henry Kaestner: right now that if we could all look as good as you do in our 80th year, then nobody would ever have to fear being 80, that’s for sure. But you’re now to be clear, you’re seventy nine.

Ron Blue: Right? And the good news is that before long I’m going to be able to shoot my age in golf. If I can live long enough,

Henry Kaestner: I’m not going to live that

Darryl Heald: long.

Ron Blue: Well, that quick story, I was raised in a Christian home, but I totally rejected the faith. And I went to college. I went to college to have a good time. I did got kicked out twice, got back and got married. That changed everything. Got my MBA from Indiana University in nineteen sixty seven and went to work on Wall Street with at that time Pete Margaret Mitchell and was with Pete Murray for three years, starting my own firm. I didn’t want to stay with the big firm, so I started a firm in Indianapolis which today is still going by the way and

Henry Kaestner: name on the door to

Ron Blue: the same name on the door. They don’t know who I am. Anyway, I spent seven years doing that and during that seven years my wife came to Christ in nineteen seventy two, asked me what I thought about that, and I threatened her with divorce because I was on the success track. Then I was an entrepreneur and I wanted to become wealthy and I was getting it. So she didn’t say anything for two years but she lived out first beta three and there was a godly woman that I there was something different. And so I prayed to receive Christ on my way to play golf. In nineteen seventy four, I had the four spiritual laws. I was by myself read through those and I said to the Lord, I don’t want to change anything, but I’m willing to be changed. And that day I shot a thirty six on the front side and I said, man, if I had known this how to become a Christian in a long time ago, if I got back on my game on the backside. But that led to joining Campus Crusade two years later and working in Africa for two years. I traveling to Africa. I made ten trips. But during that time I was also teaching leadership seminars and decision making seminars in the United States. I was gone 70 percent of the time and my wife, we were in a strange city when we moved to Atlanta. My income had gone from one hundred and fifty thousand to twenty five thousand and we had five kids below the age of 12 and she had a husband gone 70 percent of the time. And she called me at the office one day and she said, How do you get on Christian? And I said, What do you mean? She said that this is the abundant life I’ve had, all the abundance I can take. And what that led then was I was with Dr. Howard Hendricks, who was a friend and mentor, and he had been asking for financial advice from me. And I had been out of the financial world for a couple of years. But he said, would you take a look at my finances? Which I did, and I was able to sit down with him and Gene and say, you know what, Howie, you’re doing just fine. And it was like a load came off of his shoulders. This was in nineteen seventy nine. And now when I look back over those 40 some years, I realized that the question he was asking is really the question almost everybody wants the answer to, and that is how am I doing? They want to know the answer to that question, every one of us wants to know, and of course, it changes over time. So I felt like having traveled to Africa, that there was a lot of money in the United States. So I determined through a series of things that I wanted to help Christians plan to manage their money so they have more to give away. And that was not called financial planning at the time. Financial planning didn’t exist. There was no such thing as a CFP, and it was product sales or investment sales and insurance sales and so forth. But the first client that I had, he wanted to give a million dollars to Campus Crusade. I did not know him. He was a physician. And I said, well, what’s your income? He said, eighty two thousand a year. I said, What’s your net worth? He said, I don’t know, three or four hundred thousand. And so I’m thinking, there’s no way he can give a million dollars away. But God in his providence had done something. And that was the last couple of years as a CPA. I had done a lot of bank projection work and all it was was projecting cash flows over five years and working them out to a final net worth statement. So that’s what I did for this doctor. And it turned out he could give away a million dollars. He gave he had more property than he realized. He gave away his property, lowered his taxes, increase his cash flow, increases giving with Florida’s taxes were to increase his cash flow. And you worked all that out. And in five years, he could give away a million dollars and still have basically what he started with. And I thought there’s a lot more people like that. And I thought recently, what if he’d only wanted to give one hundred thousand? That would have been my bar. But it was a million, and so my bar became a million, and because he gave it to Campus Crusade, Dr. Bright asked me to speak at all of their donor events. And I would say, look, if you want to give away a million dollars or more, I can help you do that. And not only that, you can pay me to help you. And so I knew how to build a time based business, so I didn’t have to sell any product. And I knew how to do financial planning. And all of a sudden in five years, I had a national clientele, a rich, wealthy Christians who wanted to give. And that’s how the whole thing got started. And today, there’s ten thousand clients that the firm serves that are giving away one hundred and fifty million a year. They’re managing about 12 billion in assets. And I look back and I realize how God prepared me to do what I did. I can take zero credit for it. And it’s such a joy now to I can look back and say, wow, isn’t this great? And I’ll finish with this. What I found was the people that gave away those huge sums of money were the most joyful people I knew and the most contented. They were accomplishing something with the resources God had entrusted to them and they were experiencing the joy of giving. So they were good investors. They were good entrepreneurs, but they were better givers. And I don’t mean that on a comparative basis, but so I’ve had a great life. Henry, helping people give away money

Darryl Heald: your life, indeed. Thank you for sharing the history. What a legacy it’s got. I mean, it takes a while to tell a story when you start to your seventy ninth year.

Ron Blue: Yeah, but

Darryl Heald: I love you. So Henry and I know each other thirteen years, but Rodney and I’ve known each other over 30 years. Yeah. So I was the young real estate broker and the company I was working for actually owned the building where you all were Ozzfest. And so I was two floors below Rodell Balloon Company and I was going to church with a couple of the young financial planners that were working for Ron. And they started give me these books that he wrote, Money Matters and Money Matters for Your Kids. And I was very much influenced by Iran. And Judy, Kathy and I both have been. And one of the reasons why we did what we did, a lot of ways that we raised our kids around these money issues, giving and things like that were influenced by you. And I’m thankful. So we’re really grateful for that. And it’s kind of fun that our families are friends. We’ve served on a number of boards together as well. But Rodney, thanks for joining us today. One of the things that I know that I’ve heard you talk about a number of times is what are the impediments to giving? You have this triangle like why aren’t more people giving? Because you just gave this great example of this guys says, hey, I want to give a million and so on. But where is that kind of a state of giving? And in one sense, there’s a lot of resources out there. Occasionally we see a person like this doctor being generous. But what’s holding a lot of other people back?

Ron Blue: Well, I think if I were to boil it all down, Darryl, I think there’s three things that have to happen in giver’s life. No. One, there has to be transformation. You’ll never see maximum giving apart from transformation. So it begins with a heart attitude, a belief in what the Bible says about eternity and about my life here. But secondly, there needs to be intentionality. A lot of people give, but they really give out of their surplus. So they give large sums of money maybe, but they don’t necessarily maximize their giving unless they have intentionality. And I used to say there’s two questions. No one who owns it, you got to answer that question. But the second big question is, how much is enough? You know, how much is enough to accumulate, how much is enough on a lifestyle? And there’s not a right answer on that. There’s only a faith answer on it in the faith answer says, OK, God, what would you have me? And I would ask this way, how much do you want me to keep? And the rest I’ll give away. I love what Bob Buford, my friend, said to me one time, he had heard me ask that question, how much is enough? He said Ronnie said, I figured out how much is enough. I doubled it and gave the rest away.

Darryl Heald: I said,

Ron Blue: But that’s OK. He said, a finish line. And if you have a finish line, then the question becomes if you’re accumulating. Why am I accumulating more? And I believe so. There needs to be intentionality. But I think there’s a third thing that is very helpful in maximizing giving, and that is accountability. And I was in that business of providing accountability and I required all of my financial planners to have a financial planner, myself included. I have a financial planner. You know, I’ve written 20 books on finances, but actually read one book 20 times. But I have a financial planner because I can’t hold myself accountable. And Judy and I think differently a lot on the giving. She’s far more generous than I am. I mean, she’d give it all away. When we sold the business, I felt pretty good. She said, you know, God gave you all that. I said, you’re right. She said, you better give it all away so that when my retirement. But when she said that, then we told the financial planner what we were going to do. And so we’ve been held accountable to not accumulating them. And I would continue to accumulate if I didn’t have a financial planner holding me accountable to a decision that I felt like I had made at a particular point in time. Anyway, there are lots of stories about that. But I think transformation, intentionality and accountability are really three things that when they take place, you see maximized giving. And I will say this to that. I know that the only thing that breaks the power of money is giving. You ain’t got to open your hands or you’ll never experience the freedom of a relationship with Christ because you’ll always be there be two things to be going on. No one will be fair. And fear mentioned a lot in the Bible. And when you if you haven’t done that, there’s a fear of loss. And you obsessed with it, and that’s the biggest, you know, I talk and you’ve heard me say this, the paradox of prosperity and the paradox of prosperity is that the more you have, the more choices you have. Therefore, the more confusing it becomes. I mean, anybody that’s owned a boat knows what I’m talking about. When I sell the boat, they say it’s the second happiest day of their life, or if you own two homes or whatever it may be. And we’ve had two homes and I’ve had a boat and was happy with all of it was gone. But the more you had, the more choices you have and therefore the more fear of loss and the more confusing life becomes contrary to the American dream. And I’m not talking against people living well at all. That’s not the issue. God places people such as you guys, and I think probably such as the audience in positions of great influence because of the success they’ve had either invested in rebuilding their businesses. And that’s a good thing. And it’s OK to enjoy that. It says God gives me Rusty all things to enjoy. But he doesn’t say that joy should be my objective. He said also says right along with that, you’ve been given much in order to give much. So generosity, investment, entrepreneurship, they all tied together because they represent success in many ways, but then conquering the success by living generously.

Darryl Heald: That’s great. Thanks, Ron. I love those three things there. And so what is the so I mean, there is a significant financial services industry out there, right. That is looking to serve, you know, everyone listening to this podcast. So then what’s the disconnect with the current level of service and what you’re talking about? And if I’m kind of leaning in to what you’re saying right now as an investor and wanting to be more intentional, have that accountability, what does that look like?

Ron Blue: Well, the problem in the financial services world is that there’s a conflict of interest inherent in it. So, you know, when I tell people that my metric of success in the financial planning firm was how much our clients are giving away. Not how much we were accumulating, and today, if you would talk to around the blue adviser, they would talk about how much their clients give. And, you know, as a consequence of that, we almost never lost a client one. And number two, we almost never lost the client generationally. So now I’ve lived long enough to see people and I knew through it Kathee years and years ago. And he’s now in there for generations of the cafes. And they’re all working with advisors that are faith based, an advisor that is faith based and a client that is faith based, share the same language and the same value system. So if I’m an investor or an entrepreneur, I’m looking for an advisor. I want to know what that adviser believes. I want to know what motivates you. I want to know what he thinks about giving, because theoretically, if a client gives to a million dollars, I’ve lost the fees on a million dollars. What I found is when a client gave away a million dollars, got replaced with somebody who had two million. So I think there’s a scarcity mentality. And to me that is almost it just can’t be because the scarcity mentality says I serve a God who can’t create and I serve a God who’s not sovereign. I was once talking to a group of advisers and there were six Merrill Lynch advisors sitting next to one another. And I said, Are you guys in competition? And they kind of squirmed and I said, if you are you do not believe in a sovereign God, God can raise up those clients and he will. But, you know, faith, I see the evidence of faith in retrospect. I never see it in prospect. So I’ve got to make that decision, do that thing. That’s right. And then God honors that and blesses it.

Henry Kaestner: By that you mean you can see patterns in your life where God was faithful and blessed you in times when you didn’t see that happening. But it’s so much more difficult for us to anticipate how that pattern will continue in our lives. We’ve seen it time and time again about how God is provided right when we needed. And yet it’s so hard to just kind of project that forward as if God was sovereign and love me up until May. Twenty six, twenty twenty one. And then after that I was on my own.

Ron Blue: Yeah, well that’s true. And the life of faith never stops. You know, I struggle like everybody day to day. Now I do say this. I had good mentors and I do have a quiet time almost every day. And today I was meditating on abiding in Christ. What does that mean? You know, and it means total surrender. But I knew that, but I needed to know it again today. Yeah, and now it’s near the end of the day and I need to know it again. So the life of faith doesn’t end, but it is a life of fruitfulness and joy. Also, when you look back and, you know, I got the privilege now of looking back and not seeing what I did, but seeing what how God used even me. He used Balan’s as he could use me. And my wife taught me that

Darryl Heald: we love dearly. We love to feel. But what are the things that we actually just had a discussion on today? So we’ve seen this out of covid, this incredible rising market, so many asset prices going up so often. So one of the conundrums, it seems like with when we think about what we’re stupid in asset is like, if I think it’s going to continue to go higher, why give now? What would be your advice on that?

Ron Blue: That’s a great question. Yeah, I love that question. I used to get that a lot when I used to get it. When I was speaking to donor groups, they said, you know, if I’d give me a million dollars, I could make two million and I have more to give. So I said, well, let me let me give you an illustration. Most people know the magic of compounding. If I took ten thousand dollars and compounded it at twenty five percent over 40 years, it would grow to seventy three million dollars without adding another penny to it. If, on the other hand, it only compounded out at twenty four percent, same time period, it would be 52 million. So it’s the twenty one million dollar difference on one percentage point. Now the reason I say that is because what is God’s interest rate. Thirty fold. Sixty fold. One hundred and thirty fold is thirty thousand percent and sixty four to six thousand percent. Nine hundred dollars. Ten thousand percent. So how much is ten thousand dollars given to the kingdom. At ten thousand percent for all eternity. That’s the difference, so I want to do my given while I’m living, so I’m knowing where it’s going and I want it I want it invested in the kingdom because the return in the kingdom is far more than what the stock market’s going to return. So I use that illustration because people can grasp that and to say, well, I’m going to give when now you need to give right now and say something else. I think you need to give some cash to nondeductible cash. And I got this from a pastor who he did this and I picked up the example. So it was not mine, but I carry cash in my pocket and I look for people that are unnoticed. The most unnoticed are those who clean the bathrooms in airports, and so when I go out and I do a lot of flying, so when I go in the bathroom, I look for that cleaner and they’re always standing in the corner head down, sometimes not saying anything. And you walk over and you give them 20 dollars or forty dollars or one hundred dollars, whatever it may be. And the joy that you see on their face, that’s far more fun, if you will, than writing a big check to a ministry that had a guy followed me out one time and he said, I saw what you did. Why did you do that? And I said, listen, I am so blessed. I want to share that blessing with somebody else I love.

Darryl Heald: Rod, one of my favorite stories you have, why don’t you tell our audience is the Chick fil A’s story, the lady that.

Ron Blue: Yeah, I’ll make it short. I used to take my son many years ago to breakfast every Friday, one of my sons to and there was this lady named Rex and she worked at Chick fil A. We’d always meet at the Chick fil A and she was always the most pleasant, smiling and so forth. If she got saucy when I opened the door, she would have our meal ready for us because we’re always ordered the same thing. So I was walking out one day and I thought, I wonder if you can keep a fast food waitress. And I’ve never done that. So the Lord convinced me to tip her, give her something. So I reached in my pocket and I pulled out of twenty and the Lord said, You cheapskate, you got a lot of toys. And I said, Oh, no. So I took five hundred dollars and I followed him up. I went back in and I said, Can you take a tip? Is it OK? She said, yes. So I gave her one hundred dollars. She didn’t know how much it was and walked out. And the next week I was back in the chick Ticketfly and I was before my son had come and she came over to the table and she said, I was so happy. When you gave me the money last week, I needed a new set of tires, she said. But when I got home, my daughter, who was in high school, came home and there was a girl in her class who had had a fire in their apartment and they lost everything. She said they needed the money worse than I did. And so I had the ability to give that hundred dollars to that family. And I thought, man, I gave out of my abundance and she gave out of her property at that impacted me, I mean, and convicted me for sure. So I encourage people who you can give a lot of money away, but I encourage people to give some cash away to give it away. We’ve got a family that has ten kids that, you know, here in Atlanta. They had two of their own and they adopted three from Africa and then a family. The parents died and they adopted all five of them. So they have ten. So at the end of the year, Judy said we need to give them some money. We go to Costco every now and then fill up some cards and take it over there to them. But she wanted us to write them a check. And I thought, well, if I write that the helping hands, it’ll be deductible, but they’ll also take their percent. So I wrote the check and we drove over there and we gave it. And that type of giving is is just blessed giving. I really enjoy that. And I don’t want I don’t want to talk about me in the sense of I’m so good because I am not naturally generous by any means. I’m naturally pretty selfish. And, you know, I like nice things. I like to fly first class. I like to drive a Lexus, but I God won’t let me drive a brand new Lexus anymore. I have to buy. I used to run ride.

Darryl Heald: I mean, we could love to hear more stories than all, but why don’t we do this? I mean, because you have helped people do all this planning. So you talk about this blessed giving. What is your allocation look like? Kind of know we think about asset allocation all the time. And and so I’ll go from a giving standpoint, what is your advice on what are the dimensions and all in a giving allocation?

Ron Blue: Well, no one there’s nobody including Bill Gates or Warren Buffett that has enough money to solve all the needs. So you can’t solve every need with money. And so I generally counsel people. Where’s your heart? You know, what’s your passion? One of the things that you think are important, you can give broadly, but have again, I’ll come back to this intentionality. What is it that you really want to give to that you’re committed to? And I think husbands and wives need to be talking about this together because they probably have different interest. And that’s OK, that’s the way we grow. So I think giving it’s not an allocation. Well, I do believe in tithing to the church, but that’s the beginning point. I don’t really consider that the giving. I mean, it is. Yes, but the real giving takes place after that. I’m giving out of obedience. I want to give out of obedience, but I also want to give out of desire. So what is it that motivates me and that can change over time? So I can for people, it’s not necessarily an allocation. The Bible talks about giving to widows, giving the orphans, giving to the poor for sure, and giving to the church. But there’s a lot of ministries and I want to attach my money to my heart when it comes to giving. So I have things that I like and things that Judy likes. You know, it is funny because every time we get a letter from John Erickson, I know it’s going to cost me money because Judy loves Johnny. She loves the minister. We’ve known John for 40 some years and that’s a passion. So any time Johnny goes, she gets money because it’s a passion. So I said, give her your passion is tell your heart to your money in terms of your giving. So, yeah, I’m sorry, Daryn, when you’re asking me questions, you’re asking me questions in my sweet spot.

Darryl Heald: Why does the government. So what is that? Let’s say your blessed peace is like how much percentage of your giving and what do you all look like it? What about global? What about, you know, nationally? How do you kind of break that down and think about some of the different buckets that you’re giving to?

Ron Blue: We made a decision early that we like to give to people, so we give a lot to missionaries. We made a decision along that line that people that are working in Third World countries have more difficulty in raising money than they do in America. So we have a tendency to get more internationally when we’re giving to missionaries and missions than we do in this country. We like to give it comes down to people. What’s the impact on people? So the sex trafficking, the poor, that’s where we like to put our money and that’s our passion. I heard today we have high school curriculum on personal finance and we charge the school twenty five dollars a student to give them the curriculum. The guy that heads up our high school ministry and our institute read a testimony today of a high school junior who how, having gone through the class, it had changed the direction of his life to wanting to be in ministry. And that’s where he was going. And he said, twenty five dollars bought a changed life. That type of thing means a lot when you’re giving and I think we’d like to give to where we see the results. Also, it’s hard to give some place that you’re not tied to, literally tied to. So we pray about it a lot. We don’t give to everything that comes to our door by any means. And I don’t feel guilty and not giving because God has given us the ability to give. He’s given us the places to give and I can’t give every place. And in some cases it may be if I give, somebody else doesn’t have to give. So I don’t feel guilty at all about turning down requests for money.

Darryl Heald: Thanks, Ron. Another thing to where I’m just curious with I’m sure a lot of the listeners probably have children, grandchildren and all how you, Judy, have written on this before, but could you give us some ideas on how we can help our kids or grandkids understand that it’s more blessed to give our safe?

Ron Blue: Well, there’s two things about training children that can really sum it up. And I had a father asked me one time, how do you train your kids to manage money? And I said two things. No one more is caught than taught. So they’re going to do what you do. That’s the biggest factor in how kids handle money and think about money, and I said, the second thing is you learn to manage money by managing money. And that’s the really hard thing today. And a credit card society of having your kids manage money. But there needs to be a way and there are ways that they can do that. And that same father said to me later, he said, I realized when you said that, that because I do online giving my kids had never seen me tithe. And we didn’t talk about it because we had made that decision. We did our online giving so they’d never seen me tithe. So just think about it. What am I doing to communicate the values of giving one? And number two, how can I train my children to manage money? And here’s the mistake that parents make. They don’t let their kids make mistakes, especially the wealthy. I see they can afford to bail them out. And I don’t mean out of jail, but they can afford to do a lot of things. So what would that look like?

Darryl Heald: What how would you set that? What would be a couple of suggestions that you would say, hey, you know, you should try these couple of things?

Ron Blue: Well, no one intends on the age. OK, so we started training our kids. By the time the youngest was eight, we kind of had the system figure it out. And so we gave them a budget to buy their clothes and we knew that they would have spending money needs, that they would have needs to make gifts to Christmas and so forth. And we wanted them to say, but we wanted them to tithe. So we gave them money and we did it on a monthly basis so that they had to manage the money. So when you give them one twelfth of their clothes, money. In February, they don’t have to buy their school clothes until August, so they had to learn to say, but they also had to learn that when the envelope was empty, they were done and we allowed them in some cases to trade from one envelope to another, with the exception of tith in savings. But there had to be their ability to make the financial decisions. So somehow you probably need to help him set a budget and then figure out the management side of it, especially with the credit cards today, because cash, you just don’t deal with cash much anymore.

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Randy Alcorn is the founder and director of Eternal Perspective Ministries (EPM), a nonprofit organization dedicated to teaching biblical truth and drawing attention to the needy and how to help them. Randy is also a New York Times bestselling author. He has written over 55 books including Courageous… Heaven… and The Treasure Principle. His books have been translated into over 70 languages and have sold over 11 million copies. Prior to launching EPM, Randy co-pastored for fourteen years Good Shepherd Community Church in Oregon. He is a well recognized voice in the faith driven investing community and today is sharing more about the treasure principle and what it means to invest in eternity.

Episode Transcript

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Randy Alcorn: In fact, I’m commending you to store up treasures for yourself, that even sounds selfish, but obviously Jesus isn’t quite us to be selfish, but it is in our own self-interest. But the bottom line of what he’s saying is you can’t take it with you. And that’s why it’s foolish to store up your treasures on Earth because either they’re going to leave you or you’re going to leave them. It’s not a permanent relationship, right? You can’t take it with you, but you can send it on ahead. And that’s what he’s saying by giving it away now, investing it in God’s kingdom. We can invest in eternity and make a permanent and lasting difference in people’s lives. That’s what’s so transformative about the message.

William Norvell: Welcome back. This is a special episode. This is a crossover episode, Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor, because honestly, we just feel that our guest today, Randy Alcorn, has a message that our whole audience should hear. It’s a message of generosity as a message of how to discern that with God, and we just think that our entire tribe needs to learn about this needs to try to discern what that means for themselves and how that could potentially impact their investing and or their business and or their lives and or their conversation with their neighbor tonight, whatever that may be. We are excited to bring this to you and sing out this special episode we are going to bring. Justin Forman, the president of faith driven movements out from behind the scenes because as we were talking before, he just had an amazing story of how Randy’s message has impacted him and his family. And I want to turn it over to him to introduce Randy through his story of how picking up this book at an airport and a plane flight changed the way he thought about generosity and how it’s transcended into his whole family. So just over to you now.

Justin Forman: Thanks, William. You know, it’s fun, especially we’ve been talking a lot about books and just the power of story. A lot of that recently, as we’ve been talking about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book and just releasing that. But I’m just reminded, you know, on a special day like today, just the power that a book can have, how catalytic those moments can be. And you know, I can’t remember where I was flying from, but I can remember that by the time that I had gotten off a flight and landed in Dallas, then a book and really kind of changed the way that I view things. And there’s many things I’ve come to love about this book. But one of those was the brevity of it. It was a package, and it was, I think, almost like designed with that in mind that you can hit people with a concept so short, so sweet, so simple, so profound that you can live out. And it was a friend that had given me treasure principal years ago, and I picked that up and it just forever viewed as a young 20 30 something they just like how life is a gift and how we have to steward it. And what does it look like to kind of start out with the end in mind? And it just, you know, it’s one of those things that books have the power to unlock some of the things that once you see it, you can’t unsee it and it changes your perspective of things. And, you know, fast forward years later. You know, Randy and I have had the chance to be able to work together through a couple of different things. We did a video project kind of redoing the video project and retelling kind of a newer version of the story of treasure principal. And it was fun. Unbeknownst to me, last Christmas, my brother in law had been so deeply impacted by the book and made an impact on him that he surprised our 12 year old son, Tristan with that for Christmas. And so here we were in front of family, and we just kind of a fun moment to see a book that is so transformed me and transformed our family to be given that to my son. And that was a note, an challenge that really said, Man, if you can spend the time marinate on this book, go through it, finish it. You know, I’d love to take you out to dinner and talk more about it and to see that challenge that was issue there for my son to think about something that really transcends, you know, generations. There are books that do that, and this is certainly one of those. And that’s why. And to your point, William, that we just wanted this to be a message that reaches everybody. Entrepreneur and investor, like we have been entrusted with things to steward. And gosh, we just want to make sure that we do that faithfully. So with that man, it’s a treat and it’s a gift to have Randy with us. So Randy, welcome to the podcast.

Randy Alcorn: Thanks. It’s just so great to be with you guys. And thanks for that story, Justin. That was just great to hear about the treasure principal, its impact on your life and your family. That that’s why you write stuff. That’s why I write stuff in the prayer that it’s going to change people’s lives and impact them for eternity and impacting them in such a way that they’re impacting others. So that really only when we’re with the Lord are we going to hear all these great stories for people touched by the Holy Spirit through the things that we have done, not just the big things, but the small things.

Justin Forman: And that’s great. Hey, well, it really did it for us. You know, one of the things we love to do with our guests before we get maybe into the book and some of the topics and applications they’re given the fly flyover. Tell us a little bit about your story. Who are you, where you come from and how God’s led you to where you are today?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah. I live in Gresham, Oregon, a suburb of Portland. Portland, Oregon, is the world capital of weirdness. Yeah, but we love it. It’s a mission field, and we’re here to make a difference, and we know that it’s got purpose for it. I grew up right in this area and an unbelieving home. My dad was a tavern owner and had an amusement machine business that included the old pinball machines and taverns, and also he had cigaret machines and he had pool tables and shuffle boards and all of those kinds of things. So my house was actually very popular for kids because my dad would rotate his. Scenes from the different taverns and then all the access ones were in our house and our basement, so that was fun growing up having access to all those things, but it wasn’t fun and growing up in an unbelieving home, there just were, you know, obviously a lack of perspective. God was not talked about, thought about mentioned. But when I was in high school, I went to a youth group at a church and got involved, heard the gospel for the first time when I was 15 years old, a sophomore in high school, I came to faith in Christ and God radically changed my life and had the joy of living my mom to Christ a couple of years later and baptizing her. My desire at first know when I found out about missionaries and what they did, and I read Torture for Christ by Richard Worm brand and God smuggler by brother Andrew and Corey Tin booms the hiding place. All those things then that tells you the era it was back in in the seventies. I’m sixty seven years old now, so I guess that means I’ve known the Lord for fifty two years, but he grabbed hold of me in ways I cannot even begin to describe. I really came to the Lord. Reading Scripture, you know, when I jumped in and started reading Genesis, you know, people talk about how they get to Leviticus and get confused. Well, I didn’t have to get to Leviticus. None of it really made sense to me at first. But then when I skip forward to the gospels and are reading about Jesus, it had the ring of truth. God miraculously transformed my life and never been the same since we went to Bible College Seminary thought I was going to become a missionary at one point, but we decided to help plan a church and then became pastor of that church for 14 years and moved on from that to start a ministry called Internal Perspective Ministries. And that’s what I’ve been doing ever since.

Darryl Heald: Thanks, Randi, for sharing. It’s great to be here with you. Usually, you and I only cross paths during conferences.

Randy Alcorn: Right, exactly. It’s been a long time.

Darryl Heald: I also was deeply impacted when my father in law gave me a book at Christmas called Money, Possessions and Eternity, and I had no intention of reading it because I thought, what? What a lousy. Yes, how about how about a new driver or shotgun or something else like that?

Randy Alcorn: And could we could we use that endorsement on the back cover?

Darryl Heald: What a

Randy Alcorn: lousy gift.

Darryl Heald: I mean, I was not very grateful. So I mean, I needed this book really bad. And you know, it was just in God’s providence. So I was you young commercial real estate guy there in Atlanta. And I can’t tell you why I found the book and picked up the book. And that one’s a lot longer than the treasure principal, right? But it was, you know, we talked about a journey of generosity, and that’s what set me. I mean, you were my teacher and mentor in that, you know, it just it changed my life. And I don’t know if you remember when David Wills and I were trying to get the rights to take that as an excerpt. And then, you know, you finally came out with the treasure principle and so many stories on that. But can you give us a little context? Is that book in a lot of ways? I think there was a lot of ways kind of, you know, a huge kind of breakout book and a brainy book for you where I mean, you know, all over the world now, as you know, just the generosity messenger and the insight you give in there. Can you give us a little perspective of like how broad that message is gone? Number of books and things like that?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah, it is really been phenomenal and totally surprising. I think when the publisher asked me to write it, it was going to be the second book in a series of really small books, and they were kind of going to market them together. Well, the first book in the series was called The Prayer of Jabez. And so they really weren’t connected with each other, and there were good things about that book and perhaps things I didn’t feel is good about. But they decided to kind of separate what was called the life change series out into another one so that my book would be the lead book of that, largely because the project was a world onto its own. And, you know, eventually it had all the offshoots like the prayer of Jabez for left handed waffle makers and, you know, whatever. I mean, it was everything. And so here I was with this book called The Treasure Principal. But it turned out great because even though nobody would have predicted it, it’s like, Oh, wow, what book can we come out with that will sell a million copies? It’s actually sold over two million copies now. But how can we really capture people? Oh, let’s get them a book that tells them they should be giving away their money so people have to. And money on a book that tells you to give away your money, that’s just not going to go anywhere. So at the time, giving books and there were very, very few of them simply were not selling. They weren’t getting into people’s hearts and lives. I mean, individually, they were sure, you know, biography of ERG Latino and other great things like that. And then people would talk about giving along the way. But this was a book that focused on giving, and it was remarkable. And to this day, every week, I think I just read one. Yesterday we get these emails, these posts, these people using extracts from treasure principal people talking about how treasure principle changed their lives. People saying, by God’s grace, after reading this book, we liquidated our unnecessary assets and we had a lot that were unnecessary. I mean, we didn’t. This isn’t a vow poverty thing. I mean, most people still own possessions and live in houses, and probably most people are middle class people, but they’re just divesting themselves of treasures on Earth in order to invest treasures in heaven. And that’s what Jesus said. Don’t store treasures on Earth stored for of treasures in heaven. And how do you do that? Well, you do that through giving, and it’s been a joy giving message. That’s what I just love. I mean, not duty driven nearly as much as just joy and happiness driven. Jesus said, You know, it is more happy making it to give than to receive. That word is translated blessed. But what it means is it is more happy giving to give than to receive.

William Norvell: Oh, that’s so good. And I mean, I want to give you a chance. I think you might have just done it, but you know, in a sentence or two, right? You know, what is the treasure principle? Give us a couple of seconds on just kind of what is the key thesis?

Randy Alcorn: I think what Jesus was saying when he said, Don’t starve your child’s treasures on Earth. We’re moth and dust. Corrupt thieves can steal. But store officials, churches in heaven where he treasures their heart will be. Also, what he was saying is when it comes to treasures. They’re not bad. In fact, they’re good and it’s OK to store up treasures for yourself. In fact, I’m commending you to store up treasures for yourself. That even sounds selfish. But obviously, Jesus isn’t calling us to be selfish, but it is in our own self-interest. But the bottom line of what he’s saying is you can’t take it with you. And that’s why it’s foolish to stir up your treasures on Earth. Because either they’re going to leave you or you’re going to leave them. It’s not a permanent relationship, right? With our treasures on Earth. You can’t take it with you, but you can send it on ahead. And that’s what he’s saying by giving it away now, investing it in God’s kingdom. And it’s not just our material treasures and our money, but it’s true of our time. It’s true of our gifting, you know, our talents that God has given us. We can invest those in eternity and make a permanent and lasting difference in people’s lives. That’s what’s so transformative about the message.

William Norvell: Well, that is that is and I’m reading the book too, and it changed a lot. We did a group study on it and just changed a lot. And as you, as you say, some of the quotes as I’ve almost forgotten that that’s where I got that quote, right? It’s like, Oh yeah, that’s where I got that understanding. I totally forgot that it was so good. I was wondering, would you mind walk it through? How have you seen this play out in your own life? So you’ve mentioned a couple of different categories right time, talent, treasure. Get a little practical with us. You know, when when this message was given to you by God, how did this transform the way you’ve built eternal perspective ministries, how you spend your time, maybe how you pray? I don’t even know because you’re the expert. I’m not. I’m just curious from a practical view, how does your own life look different after you receive this message from God?

Randy Alcorn: Well, it’s interesting because I wrote several books and then I felt really Lord of the Lord, too, when I was still Pastor Young Pastor to do a sermon series related to money and possessions, not just the subject of giving, but including that. And so I thought, I don’t know how many weeks this is going to be. It’s going to be a four week series, a six week series, an eight week series. Well, so I started doing my research and then it was just so compelling. And I’m looking at all these passages and I’ve seen all these things that God says in his word about money and possessions and the connection to the spiritual life. Even where Jesus says, Where your treasure is there, your heart will be also. And I began to see in my own life and God had certainly led me into giving. I was sending a lot of money overseas, giving to my church, doing ministry related things. So giving was a big part of my life. But it was not so much. Based on scripture telling me to give, it was just the overflow of the Christian life. But when I’m looking at all these pastors related to money and possessions, stewardship, God’s ownership, I was stunned and I realized that I could preach two years worth of messages and just scratch the surface. And so the idea of the sermon series was God’s word overflows. I mean, God is so interested in this subject and expects us to be interested in it. And there have been different estimates. But if you take all of the stewardship parables, easily 15 percent of everything Jesus had to say related directly to money and possessions more than he said about heaven and hell. Not that the subjects more important than heaven and hell, of course, were more consequential, but it is really important. Or he wouldn’t invest all that time in it. So that’s what really caused me to turn that into a book, which was money possessions of eternity and that launched me into this area of giving. But to your question, what really was transformative in terms of our actual life was that it wasn’t long after the book came out. The original book, it’s been revised and updated sense, but came out in 1989 and I was still a pastor. But what happened later that year was I felt less of the law to get involved in peaceful, nonviolent civil disobedience at abortion clinics to save the lives of children just simply standing there blocking arms, but speaking up for those who could not speak for themselves. Well, as I said, I mean, I live here in Oregon and there were parts of the country, including Dallas and Wichita and Atlanta and places in the Bible Belt or Midwest. That’s its own kind of Bible belt where you could do that, and it could be fairly respectable in Portland, Oregon. It was not. The level of hostility was off the charts. So what happened was as a result of that, I had to resign as a pastor because they were coming to garnish my wages because of civil suits against me and others. And so one of those ended up being for eight point two million dollars, the largest civil suit in history, successful for a peaceful, nonviolent protest. And the result of that was I had to leave the church and I could only make minimum wage because the abortion clinics would garnish my wages, anything above minimum wage. So our lifestyle changed now. Fortunately, God had taught us already. We’re giving a large percentage of my book royalties away. I was making a good wage is a pastor, but all of a sudden I was making minimum wage. And so we looked at things and we irrevocably gave away the royalties from all my books. So now I’m actually looking at the pages of money, possessions and eternity, which I finish writing about one year before I could just make minimum wage and talking about God owns it all. And depending on God for everything. And that’s exactly what we were doing. That’s when my life really changed, which was ironically, after writing that book.

Darryl Heald: Well, that’s Randy. Thanks. That’s such a such a powerful story. And you know, one of the things that I think had such an impact on me is we think about the money and possessions part, and that’s really tangible. But this whole and eternity, right? The context of that. And of course, you know, you’ve had these famous books on heaven as well. But could you talk a little bit more just in terms of like where, you know, I think a lot of people listening to this right where we’re real practical, tactical, strategic, we understand the financial realm, right? We’re scaling businesses, we’re investing and all. But let’s talk about the eternity piece here, particularly in light of like from a relational standpoint, a family standpoint, things like that. What does that begin to look like in your own life?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah, know. I think of my family and the impact on my family, and I’ve told a story before about how when my daughters came out and we thought they should witness one time during the civil disobedience days and their dad, you know, getting arrested for speaking up for those who could not speak for themselves and the financial implications it had for a family. And I remember somebody saying to me, So do you realize the impact what you’re doing is having on your kids, how they’re going to be deprived, you having to make minimum wage and then having to see their dad go to jail? And I said, well, thank you for thinking of my kids, because, no, I really wasn’t thinking of them at all. No, but I said, you know, I hope that it will change them forever. That the material things now cannot be a huge part of our lives. God will continue to provide A. good and beautiful and wonderful ways, and our kids were not deprived. But the attitudes and actions I saw in my kids when they couldn’t have everything else that a lot of their friends could have. They couldn’t usually go the places and do the things others were doing. Though God provided us some wonderful trips and vacations and different mission trips around the world, different things that we did together, it was wonderful. But when my daughter Angela was in high school, she and I were out on a bike ride. She’s a junior in high school and we went down this new development and we saw a house that was the most beautiful house we’d ever seen in the area where we lived. And at the time, we looked at it and it was huge. It had this beautiful view of Mt. Hood. It was just landscaped beautifully, but it was still for sale. I’m in my yard and the for sale sign was $500000. Now I get it. Some people live in Southern California in different parts of the country where, you know, that’s not an impressive figure. Where I live, especially back in the 90s when this happened, there were no houses around that were selling for half a million dollars. I mean, you couldn’t find one. At least I’d never seen one. And so this is like the most beautiful house we’ve ever seen. And Angie was just great. Dad is just so gorgeous. And then all of a sudden it dawned on me, you know, and I said to her, And do you, do you know that if instead of giving away the royalties just from the last year, the royalties from my books, if we had kept them, we could have paid cash for this house? No kidding. And she’s got this big smile on her face. Well, she knew what we did with the money. She knew all the things. We talked to our kids about, which I, by the way, would really recommend. Sometimes parents are doing giving and they’re not talking to their kids and they’re not involving their kids. And I’d say, get your kids involved, help them even make decisions about, you know, where it goes. And all of that gives them ownership so that they have vested interests in eternity. But anyway, continuing with Angela, so I said that to her, and she’s just now kidding. And then I said, What age do you wish we would have kept the royalties? And we still could. I mean, we could get them back. We’d given them away, yes. But by that time, we could have taken them back. But but you wish we would and would buy this house or a house like that. And she looks at me and she laughs, genuinely. She just laughs and she said, Dad, he’s just a house. And I’m telling you. Tears came to my eyes because I thought people were worried about my daughters being deprived. Well, what they got instead of. They’re never going to get a huge inheritance, but they are. I hope they have received a heritage. And so that’s where it gets really personal for me.

William Norvell: Well, that’s good. That’s good. All right. I just keep wrestling. I’ve read the book and my wrestle, is this sometimes Randy when I go, OK, I get it. You know, there’s other things in the Bible where you go, OK, okay. Like, I’m not going to debate the theological points with you, right? Like this is clear, right? This is not debatable from that perspective, but how do our listeners get our head around treasure and have it? Right. And of course, that’s better. Like, obviously, that’s better, right? But two part question, right? So how do I one get my head around it, maybe theologically? And then two, you know, are there practical ways to maybe get around my own stubbornness? And you know, I’ve heard you talk about a financial finish line, right? Are there practical ways say, Hey, you know what? You are greedy and stubborn. And so here’s some practical tips to get around that.

Randy Alcorn: Well, I think one way to think about it is a lot of people think wrongly about giving where they think, OK, all right. I know it’s a good thing because they know people are needy here. I know a lot of things need to be accomplished for God’s kingdom in the world, so I’ll make the sacrifice and do the giving. And I realize God has given me a lot and so I can. Yeah, I can give some of the weight, but it’s like a begrudging. Even people who talk about tithing as if tithing were the ultimate like tithing is the training wheels of giving. It’s like the wading pool or, you know, is the end of the swimming pool where you get in. But then when you learn how to really swim, you go into the deeper water. Well, that’s how it is with tithing. So to me, the people are held back and they think that tithing is the most radical kind of giving that a person could do. Well, of course, that’s just that’s just 10 percent. And what God has provided for us is just way, way beyond that. But I think the mistake that people sometimes make is thinking of their giving as divesting. Just I’m giving it away and I’ll never see anything from it. But really, it’s investing and especially when you make wise giving choices and it’s truly making a difference in people’s lives for eternity. And so when Jesus said, you’re storing up treasures for yourself in heaven and Luke, 12, there’s a parallel passage where he says that you sell your possessions, give to the poor, and then God will give you moneybags in heaven. Or sometimes it’s translated money belts in heaven. So in other words, it’s the transfer of wealth to another location. You could say it’s a different kind of wealth, but it’s using actual material wealth as the basis for creating wealth and have it now. We don’t know exactly what that wealth will look like. We know that often it has to do with eternal rewards of ruling in God’s Kingdom of leadership in God’s Kingdom, a lot of people are thinking, Well, I don’t want to rule, I just want to go around and have fun or whatever. Well, it’s not ruling like in this era of under the fall of corrupt government or whatever. It’s going to be magnificent hearts filled with will serve at hearts of people serving the Lord in his kingdom. You’ve been faithful a little. I will put you over much. I’ll put you over five cities, I’ll put you over 10 cities. I’ve written a big book called Heaven and several other books on that subject. And I think part of what’s wrong is when we think of Jesus saying, Sorry, I’ve churches in heaven. When we think of heaven, we don’t have a biblical view of heaven. The biblical view of heaven is life forever on a resurrected earth, living and resurrected bodies with resurrected fellow believers with the resurrected Jesus in a new earth of resurrected culture and resurrected nature and resurrected animals. And it’s it’s, you know, don’t have time to develop all that and give the scriptural basis. But I’ve written whole books about it, and I’m telling you once you see heaven in that light, then when you think about investing and eternal rewards and investing in eternity and experiencing forever, the result of your giving way of your life and your time and your resources in this life, you think of that being something you will enjoy and others will enjoy forever, no matter what form that takes. That is an amazing, paradigm shifting thing. And ironically, it isn’t just that we OK. Yeah, we have to make all these sacrifices in this life. And you know, that’s that’s the pitch, you know, but at least it’ll pay off in eternity. No, it pays off in this life also, because then we have the joy of seeing where that money goes. I’ve had people say to me, or your books have sold over 11 million copies, it’s almost 12 million now. Do you realize what you could do if you had kept the royalties from those books? You realize the kind of house you live in, the kind of cars you could drive, the kinds of trips you could go on. And God has allowed us to go on some magnificent trips anyway, from speaking and missions, related trips and just all. All these kinds of things. But, you know, my response is always, well, yeah, there’s a lot we could have done with that money, but nothing that would have brought us as much joy as what we did with it in terms of giving them and what we are still doing with it in terms of giving it away. That is what is transformative to experience by the grace of God, not only change in other people’s lives as a result of our giving, but in our lives. And let me just add this my my wife has stage four cancer in the lymph nodes. It’s been a battle for four years. We had some test results recently that weren’t good. We pray for her healing each and every day, complete healing. God so far has not chosen to answer that. No, he may still and will praise him if he did, but will also praise him if he doesn’t choose to do that because the ball’s in his court. But I’m telling you to see my wife in the world daily and talking about heaven and looking forward to being with Jesus and trusting him fully. I believe that our lives and our hearts and our attitudes would have been very different if we had not, by God’s grace, learned the secret of joyful giving decades ago.

Darryl Heald: Well, thanks, Randy, that’s that’s super powerful, and we’re sorry that you know, that circumstances as it is and just it’s really amazing just to hear, though, the grace surrounding you with you and Nancy and your family despite the difficult circumstances. But you’re right, the hope of glory, right, is the driver. But so one of the things I think is really interesting. You just brought up this tension between how much do we keep, how much do we spend ahead, you know, treasure in heaven. Right. But then so a lot of people in our audience, right, are entrepreneurs, starting businesses, building businesses, investors who have capital goods given the ability to create wealth. So how do I how do I not have the begrudging attitude you’re talking about? And then at once, it’s the freedom to say this is how God created me and how do I begin to manage that tension or find a balance with, you know, using the worldly wealth right now to be a creator, to be a, you know, investor and things like that. So can I have the freedom to do that?

Randy Alcorn: You know, I think the answer is yes in a qualified way because I’ve had these conversations and heard that question, of course, many times from people, because it’s a very good question. I think the one thing we need to be careful not to do, and I’ve seen many people who have done this, and I think you have to where they say to themselves, OK, I’m going to make a ton of money and one day I’m going to give a lot of it away. Jesus did not say Where you want your treasure to eventually be there, your heart will be also. He said, where your treasure is, where you put it now is where your heart is going to be. So a lot of the people who have good intentions with that just keep accumulating and keep accumulating, and there’s no end to accumulation. There is no end. And so I think what has to be done is you have to discipline yourself to say, I am going to give generously now. I am not going to wait to give generously. Now, it doesn’t necessarily mean I will give away 90 percent of my income when I’m early on starting a business. For a lot of people, that just probably wouldn’t work with the starting the business thing, but I still will be very generous and depend on how much God is entrusted to me. Maybe I’ll give 20 percent, maybe 40 percent, 50 percent of whatever figure it is, and it all depends on the resources God has entrusted you and how it works. And there’s no biblical formula and there’s no magical percentage. I would never, ever under any circumstances go less than 10 percent because I just can’t imagine a New Testament believer changed by the grace of Jesus, who is unwilling to do the minimum that was required of the poorest Israelite. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. But the point is, yeah, there’s freedom. But then I would say not air on the side of because it’s not airing at all generous giving, but it’s just like, stretch yourself with the giving and ask God to bless. And you may find that of course, you’ll never know in this life because you can’t do it both ways. But I think in many cases, people just for their lives into the building of this business. They lose the business. The business, you know, just falls apart or the economy changes. They take the money that they made and that they invested in things out there and the investments went sour or they became very, very wealthy. And then they lost their families because their priorities weren’t right because their hearts weren’t right. So if you want your heart to be in the right place where your treasure is there, your heart will be. Also, put your treasure now into God’s kingdom, so your heart will be in God’s kingdom. Give your treasure to Jesus. Now see your heart will be with Jesus. That doesn’t mean give it all away. There are times where Jesus did say, Give it all away. OK, but isn’t. Do that for all of us. But whatever it is, do enough of it. Now that your heart is going there, then maybe not only might God bless you and your business, but your heart might be in such a place that when more money comes in, then you’re giving more and more. But if you’re always waiting for that day to come, when you’re going to become a giver that day in all likelihood will never come. And you will regret one day having really wasted your life with and your resources that were really God’s all along. Because he owns it all. When you could have invested in turn to be

William Norvell: so good and so here you tell that story. I guess I’ve heard a lot of people tell the story. You know, I’ve never heard someone say yes to the answer of Do I wish I have kept it? I’ve heard a lot of generous people. I don’t think I’ve ever heard one person say, You know what? Actually, yes, I wish we had not given that money away. And right, that’s staggering. It just hit me as you were talking. I’ve never heard someone say the other answer to that. And for someone who’s wrestling with that, for my wife and I just went through what a Darrell’s program’s journey of generosity and we were wrestling with what that should look like in our life. Fred is just such a moment to remember. I’ve I’ve never met someone who said we gave away too much. We made a mistake.

Randy Alcorn: Yeah. And I don’t think at the Jesuit seat of Christ, it’s just hard for me to imagine. Well, you know, I’m going to reward you for this and that, and I commend you for this and that, and he is going to do that. But this I have against you, as you said to the Rev.. Churches and Rev.. I have this against you, but this I have against you. You gave away too much to feed hungry children and get clean water to people and get the Bible translated into their heart language and to help persecuted Christians all over the world and to reach people with the gospel in the far corners of the world. You really shouldn’t have done that. I mean, I’m trying to imagine at the generosity of Christ him ever saying that, yes, somebody could say, Well, there’s probably a case where a guy made his family go hungry so that he could give all that money away. Well, God knows if there is such a person. And there probably is somewhere. But I would say that’s a rare situation, and I’ve had people say to me, we got to take care of our kids and living in a culture where even middle class is exorbitantly wealthy by global standards and historic standards, and people are saying, Well, we got to take care of our kids. Will you provide for your kids giving them food to eat and clothes to wear and a place to live versus just overindulging your kids constantly so they have the best of everything, which will not ultimately be character building for them?

William Norvell: It’s so good. I realize you’re one of the generous giving videos with Tim Keller to thinking about our heart boss. You’re right. He joked. You know, if you don’t know Tim as a pastor in New York and says, Yeah, I’ve been a pastor for 35 or 40 years, right? Said, You know, I’ve I’ve never had one congregant come to me and say, You know what? I struggle with the sin of greed. I think I’m too greedy. There’s just something about our heart posture that doesn’t let us go there. We just don’t assume we are right.

Randy Alcorn: Exactly. And I think that’s the nature of me. We talk about blind spots like, What are your blind spots? Well, I don’t know, because they’re blind spots, right? And that I think with greed, materialism, greed is idolatry. We’re told it’s putting something before God. It’s worshiping the material, it’s worshiping money and we do it and we do it a lot. And first, Timothy, six and other passages as well just really speak against, you know, the love of money and its impact on our lives and telling us to be rich in good deeds to give it away, laying up for ourselves treasures as a firm foundation for the coming age. The coming age is life forever on the new Earth. We got to change that perspective and when we do and we can’t just do it, you know you can’t. How do you make yourself less greedy? How do you make yourself generous? Well, this is only one way to give it away. There’s only one way to break the back of materialism that’s giving a lot away because when we give it away, we prove to ourselves that we don’t have to have it to live on. And we proved to ourselves, it’s not our God. And that’s what you do. So you don’t wait until you feel like giving in to give you give. But the more you give, the more joy you find in it. And pretty soon, giving is so wrapped up in your life you don’t even think of it as a sacrifice. Other people look on, they say, Wow, you’re kidding. You’re giving that all away. And often they don’t know. In my case, they don’t know what we give from our own personal income, from what the ministry pays us. But they know all the royalties are given away. But I don’t even think of it. I mean, I only think of it as privilege and joy and. And the same thing with my family that our kids are not going around hanging their heads because they’re not going inherit all this money or these great houses and lands or whatever. And this is where the transformation comes in. You only overcome greed through giving more and more. If you keep it, you’ll just stay greedy. In fact, when I think of the word miser, what English word is derivative of it is connected with it miserable. The miser is miserable. Think of Scrooge. Do you want to be like Scrooge? I mean, who wants to be very wealthy but utterly miserable until the transformation takes place? And Charles Dickens, when he writes that I go back and I reread that story once in a while, a Christmas Carol. And what happens to Ebony’s Your Scrooge in that strange story with the three ghosts of Christmas? And all of that is the equivalent of a conversion story. It is like coming to Jesus, and everything looks different now, and life is full of joy as you give away what you always used to keep and made you miserable.

William Norvell: So again, coming up on the Christmas season, I’m going to watch that with the new light now and the new vision. So as we come to a close, had one final question. I don’t know if we got exactly to it. Could you explain the concept of a financial finish line and how you’ve developed that and how our audience could think about that specific concept?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah, some people become highly specific with the financial finish line idea, and others take it more as not a clear line, but something that they generally strive for. There’s obviously advantages to clarity where you say, All right, this is all I need. All I could use. Everything beyond that goes to God when I reach a certain amount. And obviously I’m not going to say an amount is going to differ with what people believe about it or I reach a certain amount. It’s like in my investment portfolio. Do I need to keep pouring money into it so that there will just be way more than I could ever possibly use? Or do I need to give it away now and not leave it to my children after I die and hope they give it away because they may make more income than I do? I hope they do, but give it away now because God didn’t entrusted to my children, he entrusted it to me. So the finish line is don’t feel like you’re supposed to keep most of what comes in. If God is given you a lot of money, why has he entrusted it and given is the wrong word entrusted to your care? Well, it’s so you can make a difference for eternity. God will make us, it says in second Corinthians nine, he’ll make us rich in every way so that, OK, what’s he going to say now so that we can live in the nicest house and we can have multiple houses and the beach in the mountains and and everywhere? And so that we can go on the most exorbitant vacations and and have the most the greatest cars and multiple cars and all of that. OK. It doesn’t say that you will be made rich in every way so that you may be generous on every occasion. And Corinthians eight nine, I would just say, read and reread those two chapters and ask God to change your heart. And you see how grace it’s all about the grace of God manifested in people’s lives and showing through giving so that grace is the lightning. Grace is the lightning that comes from heaven, that comes from God. Giving is the thunder. That is our response to the lightning. You’re gonna have the lightning for the thunder to be there. And if you are not generously thunderously giving, it’s probably a sign that you’re not experiencing the lightning of God’s grace in your life the way you should and could. But the solution? Give more and ask God to give you a cheerful heart as you give. And he’ll answer that prayer. And when you see what’s being done with the giving that God has privileged you to do, you will get more pleasure and more excitement from that than you could get from any material possessions ever.

William Norvell: Unfortunately, we have to come. To an end, gosh, I feels like we could go on forever. We may have to beg you to come back and go on forever some time. But where we love to end is we love to invite our guests to share a little bit of where God’s word is working on them right now. And so that could be this morning. It could be a season in your life. It could be something that God’s brought new to you as you’ve been reflecting on a during a season. But just love to see how God’s word transcends our guest and our listeners and how it’s it’s always alive and working.

Randy Alcorn: Well, I’ll tell you right now that is both a hard and an easy question to answer. It’s easy to know what I should talk about because unless something changes and God intervenes and we still pray that he will. My wife is dying, and so we face that every day and still doing the treatments haven’t g iven up there. But we’ve said, you know, if it gets to a certain point and quality of life is diminishing, we’re going to take you off the chemo. And you know, all of that because we’re not hanging on desperately to life in this world. It’s better to die and be with Christ is greater by far to be with him. And my wife knows that and I know that. But obviously we want her to continue in this life. But I’ll tell you, when you look at that in terms of eternity, it moves your heart and it just the priorities becomes so, so clear. It’s kind of like what we’re saying before. It’s like people on their deathbed don’t say, you know, I wish I had spent more time at the office and less time with my kids. I wish I had spent less time with my wife. No, the regrets or the other way they wish they’d spend more time with their wife, more time with our kids, that maybe they hadn’t traveled around the world quite as much without their family. Or maybe they wouldn’t have spent so much time making money that you know, now they don’t have the relationships that they could have had if they had invested less in their business and more in their family or done their business in such a way that it didn’t have to sacrifice the family. OK, but for us, we are just thinking God, that by his grace, years ago he did. Some things in our life were far from perfect. And I don’t mean there’s no such thing as greed or materialism in our lives. You know, we live in a culture of it. It’s the air we breathe. But to the degree that we have been freed from that, that our hearts have been in heaven and for decades and cautions three says, set your eyes on things above where Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. By God’s grace, we have been able to do that and we have no regrets and Nancy’s talked about that not having regrets. So right now, I would say ironically, when we started our ministry now just over 30 years ago, I guess thirty one years ago, the verses that I chose that would be our theme for the ministry were in Second Corinthians four, where it says we look not at the things which are seen, but the things which are unseen to the things that are seen are temporary. But the things that are unseen are eternal. And that’s why we named it eternal perspective ministries. But it’s preceded by a verse that helps so much with understanding the meaning these light and momentary afflictions. Now think of Paul’s life, who’s talking and the afflictions that he went through are unbelievable. You’ll look at the list of those in Second Corinthians. It’s unbelievable. But these light and momentary afflictions are achieving in us and eternal weight of glory that far outweighs them all. Therefore, we look not at the things which are seen, but the things which are unseen to things which are unseen are eternal. OK, well, it’s not just we’ll have to put up with these afflictions, but then they’ll be gone forever because we’ll be in heaven will live forever on the new Earth. That’s true. But what it’s seen is these afflictions are achieving in us. God is doing a powerful work in our lives through our suffering. God has done the most powerful work I have ever seen in my wife’s life and my life through the suffering of these last four years. He is achieving eternal purposes. When I see her in the word. Every morning, I see her journaling, she reads to me from her journal. I turn some of the things that she’s written in her journal and ask her if we could use them as blogs on our EPM website. She wrote one recently called My Cancer is God’s Servant, based on a passage that says all things are God’s servants. He uses all things, and we know that all things will work together for good to them. That love God to them are called according to his purpose. And so not only in general, is that what we have been learning, but it has confirmed how grateful we are that God let us open our eyes years ago to the joy of giving. And we’ll sit and we’ll hear reports from different parts of the world and book that I hand out to somebody somewhere. And then somebody that had their car break down last week and took women or children to their house sent him some books and hearing the stories of lives being changed through the divine appointments God gives us and through the wealth he’s entrusted to us. I can say this we are not living with regrets. I mean, of course you always think should have done this better. Should’ve done that better. It’s not the mirage of perfection, but it’s thank you Lord, for helping us to discover these things and live these things out together as husband and wife for decades, even though it was costly and could no longer be a pastor, could no longer make a normal wage for, well, for 20 years. But God provided and God is gracious and kind and sovereign, and we trust him 100 percent.

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In 1976, 23-year-old David Weekley started his own home building company. Now more than 40 years later, the company has sold more than 100,000 homes, expanded to 19 cities across the nation, and won countless awards. In addition, David and his family launched a charitable Foundation to impact the world through both Christ-centered and secular organizations. David joins us to share the story of starting one of the most successful home building companies in the country and how their foundation is changing the lives of thousands around the world. 

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

David Weekley: I would share to you, no one go where their passion and where they’re called, but number two, not to set aside their business acumen and learnings when they give so often times, especially if you come from a place of faith, you kind of it’s like you do business with your head and you give with your heart. And to me, you ought to combine those just like, you know, hopefully we’re living out our faith during the week and work. I think we’re supposed to give with the same business acumen that we use in earning money. Just amaze me that people spend 40 hours of 50 hours a week, whatever earning sums. And then they’ll give at the drop of a hat without any investigation, understanding, et cetera.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast is a special edition to combine this with our sister property, Faith Driven Investor, because we’ve got a really special guests. And to be clear. Having done a couple of hundred of these, each one of the guests are very special. And each one of them has made a major impact, I think, on all of our lives. I think they’re great stories. I hope that you’ll agree with me today, though, is, shall we say, extra special. We’ve got David Weekley on the program and from time to time we’ll have an interview with somebody who’s made an impact on my life and has for quite some time. And David is one of those people. I met David first, I think, probably about 12 years ago, and I think back to the different entrepreneurial things that I’ve been involved with my life. And to some extent, they’ve been informed by some measure of naivete and hubris. And you know, David met me when I was in my thirties. I’m now in my early 50s and I found him to be nothing but incredibly encouraging. He must have been thinking, this guy’s crazy. He just did all these different things he wants to do. He’s never going to be able to do any of them. And I’m a busy, successful guy and I don’t have time for this. And yet he did, and he’s been one of those guys that has consistently been a source of encouragement to me, of guiding me and how to think about entrepreneurship, how to think about giving and giving. Well, Sir David, thank you very much for spending so much time with me over the years. Thank you very much for being on the program.

David Weekley: I’m excited about it.

Henry Kaestner: So we like to start every one of our episodes by hearing about the personal background of our speakers. And you’ve got a great one and you’ve got incredible testimony. And so we want to start there. And so maybe you can just start off. Of course, at the beginning, bring us through quickly about the type of home you grew up in, but then what made you decide to launch your own business?

David Weekley: Born and raised in Houston, Texas, fortunate with a mom and dad who were together for seven years and two older brothers. We were all eagle scouts and, you know, kind of a suburban. Leave it to beaver kind of life growing up. So I was blessed in that way. My two older brothers were a lot older, 12 and eight years older, and so I know look up to them and always wanted to live up to their expectations of my parents expectations. Found out Boy Scouts, if you work hard, you could get badges. And it was kind of fun and I was never the smartest guy in school or the best looking or the best athlete. So I found out the working hard is what worked for me. I married my high school sweetheart, three kids and grandkids, and started out and went to work for a homebuilder right out of school because I was supposed to go get a a business degree up east, go get an MBA, and they wanted me to get a couple of years of experience. And so I went to work for a homebuilder and that was great. But then I got fired after about a year and a half, and so my brother said, Well, why don’t we start our own company so at age 20 to start my own company? Fortunately, it was the late 70s in Houston, Texas, and lots of homes were being sold and so grew that company up to the mid 80s. By the time I was 30 made a lot of money, thought I was God’s gift to the homebuilding business president, Local Builders Association, speaking to three hundred people every month and driving my BMW seven Series and building a 10000 square foot house at Memorial. I mean, I was I pretty much had it made. And then, sure enough, market downturn in the mid 80s oil and gas business in Houston and American went from 30000 starts to 6000 starts. And most builders went broke and we didn’t because we went to a couple different markets and were able to get profitable before we went broke. But the key point about that part of the story is that I remember the worst thing about that downturn was the reality that I had millions of dollars flow through my hands and nothing good had come out of it. And so kind of made got a promise to give me one more boom and I won’t screw the next one up. And he came through in the late 80s and early 90s, and guess what, about 92 that they have open heart surgery for a birth defect. I went on a Christian retreat and remembered my promise and said, OK, from this point forward, I’m going to give half my time and half my money to charitable causes. So I had to hire a CEO. I went through a couple with and found the right one, and I had taken the company up to about 300 million and he’s taking up to three billion. So I was fortunate to find someone wonderful, talented I was that was a professional manager where I was an entrepreneur, so to speak. So since then, I’ve been given half my time as well. And so that’s something that a lot of folks can’t do, but it helps you gain some knowledge, I guess, of the last 30 years and half my time, a thousand hours a year. So that’s 30000 hours into philanthropy. And you know, we’ve all heard it takes 10000 hours to get to be an expert, but I’m still making. Mistakes regularly, so still working on it.

Henry Kaestner: Well, the best part of that is that you’re showing mistakes with people like me is I and a lot of other people try to be better on that giving that helps rather than hurts. If you think about Brian Stricker and his work and so you’ve been a big part of that. I actually want to go backwards just a little second there because you talked about running the business as an entrepreneur and running the business as a manager and going from $300 to three billion. And what the type of skills are, they’re required to take it to that level. So many of our audience are entrepreneurs and they have a vision and they’ve got the energy and they’re catalyzing things. And yet it’s almost agree that you get the vision sometimes that you’re not great at actually program witnessing things. Can you talk a little bit about how that happened and just some of the maybe some of the lessons that you’ve learned in not only your own experience, but having been around enough around other entrepreneurs about mistakes made and or just council, you would give a visionary entrepreneur that is starting to see success come about and yet is really wondering what it takes to really scale something.

David Weekley: I was fortunate in that my older brother, who was my partner, was also a great mentor. And so I was able to bounce things off him and he had good business judgment. And entrepreneurship is sometimes a pretty lonely business. And so my first thought is to get some mentors people who you trust and have faith in to count for you early on. Second thought would be, is that, you know, oftentimes if you got a private company in your private stockholder, you know, the story is never sell anybody else stock or never give to anybody else. You know, you can pay them well, but just don’t give up stock. And for me, I found just the opposite to be true when I brought on my CEO as a partner sold some stock to him. Now I’ve got 40 managers that are my partners, that own real stock. And it’s great having them go through ups and downs. You know, this last downturn for us in 2007 and eight was really tough. Sixteen hundred team members and we took it down to eight hundred to survive and having a bunch of folks on the board with me pull through those waters that were my partners, whose financial net worth was on the line, just like mine was, was very helpful.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, OK. So that’s helpful. You know, we talked a lot about partnerships on the program and I’d be completely lost. I’ve had three different entrepreneurial endeavors, and each one of them were successful because of Divine Providence, but more pragmatically, having an incredible partner because otherwise being an entrepreneur is a really, really lonely journey. And so I did not know that part of your story. Tell us about the story of the idea of trading your principles for an Oldsmobile,

David Weekley: and that goes back to when I was fired. And what happened? I was running a community for another builder and we kind of had this compensation deal that was set up where it was. I got a percentage of the profits about halfway through the in June, they said. We want to change the deal and instead of you getting a percentage of profits, we want to give you a company, Oldsmobile. And I kind of said, Well, I really don’t want a company, Oldsmobile. I kind of want the deal we set out. And so end up talk to my boss or my boss’s boss. And they finally said, Well, this is really where the companies go. And then the final. I went to the president that, you know, wrote a letter to him and he called me in and I thought it was going to be great. You know, we agree we’re not going to change it midyear on you. But he said, I didn’t really have the right attitude and I need to go find employment elsewhere. So that’s kind of what happened.

Henry Kaestner: If it had been a BMW, would you have said

David Weekley: maybe you could

Henry Kaestner: trade even weekly at home instead of one of the largest and most successful home builders and contractors in the country? It’s huge. If you went down from 600 to 800, it’s now come back where you are now. Can you share that?

David Weekley: Yeah, we got again six hundred team members, but we’re doing a lot more volume. That’s good news. Yeah, we’re back up to three billion, which is our peak.

Henry Kaestner: So if you’re in a really competitive homebuilding business, then you always have been. The fact that homebuilding is a lucrative venture is not new for other people. It’s not like you have invented a new rocket ship to the Moon or something like that. There’s some amount of execution that has to go on, and there’s some amount of really understanding your market and product market fit and understand your competition. Can you share a little bit about what that was like for you over the last couple of decades about how you’ve looked at the competitive landscape, how you’re able to come up with a product that was just better than other people’s? In a way that it was preferred.

David Weekley: When I first started out, I was up against a national homebuilder that had better buying power and more efficient. And so they were selling cheap. And we were and I figured out pretty quickly. I had to figure out how I was going to differentiate myself. And so I decided the design was going to be that first differentiated myself. So I went to California, got the latest designs, hired my own designer in house, Brad. Going outside so we could learn what our customers liked and didn’t like and continue on a path of being very, very customer focused on design. Then about the early 90s realized that we need to do more next. We were catching up on design. So then we gave our customers choice instead of design centers, and they could come in and pick out their own tile and various things. So we moved to choice. And then sure enough, most of the competition have copied our design centers, and I’m not a copy from somebody starting out, but we went pretty fast and big with it. And then so service became the key differentiator for us, and now we get about 40 percent of our sales from referrals. You know, we got 4.8 stars on a five star rating from our customers. And you know, you can’t get a steak meal where you get 4.5 stars. And this is a very, you know, complex purchase. Very emotional takes a long time. They get to see building it. And so getting people that really care for the customer and care for that customer experience has been a huge differentiator for us currently. And that’s not easy to do. You can’t just flip a switch and make that happen. That’s a culture in the company.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so I want to get to that because that’s the other differentiator. It goes beyond just design and selection. There’s a unique culture that you have, and I think I know part of the answer to this. I think that our audience knows part of the answer to this about your unique culture. Part of it is the fact that you have these 40 car owners with you that are strapped to the mass with you. But I think it’s also more than that to talk about your unique culture and how you built it.

David Weekley: Well, in my early forties, when I had that operation and kind of moved from being a cultural Christian to being more of a committed Christian, I really kind of made the decision to look at the other more than myself. Quite honestly, the first 20 years of the company history, it was all about me. After all, the company was named David Weekley home. That should be fairly self-evident. And so moving for me to the other is when we really started taking off and creating, we have

Henry Kaestner: it so that your name was on it, but your brother, at least one of your brothers, was involved.

David Weekley: Right? Well, he started out the little story on that would back the late 70s. When we started our first billboard, it was weekly homes. It wasn’t David Weekley homes and it was weekly homes from the 30s, not 130, not 230, but from the 30s. It was. It was a lot of home. Now remember a truck pulling up in front of one of our models full of furniture on the back and said where those homes to rent for $30 a week weekly homes from the 30s?

Henry Kaestner: Oh, that’s great. No, there’s an e there between the L in the world, right?

David Weekley: Right. But oh, so I talk to my brother. So we need a change, change the name of the cavities and what he want to do. I said, How about David weekly? Sounds good to me. So. Wow. So anyway,

Henry Kaestner: what was his name, Ebenezer or something that just didn’t work?

David Weekley: His name was dick weekly. It is. So anyway, one of the interesting challenge about that when I hit my thirties and I had young kids in school and you know your names on a billboard, I realized I was kind of put my kids in a situation where all the kids in school would assume their rich folks because our name was fairly well known around town, et cetera. So I looked at changing the name of the company that literally we did market studies, et cetera. And we already had enough of a reputation that it didn’t make sense. And then, you know, later as I got into my more philanthropy and being able to speak and talk to folks, et cetera, I realized that God kind of had a plan because he gave me a platform that I wouldn’t have had otherwise. You know, with a name that was known out there. And so, you know, I love the way I guess Rick Warren coined it, whichever stewardship of affluence our money. But we also have the stewardship of influence, you know, the folks we know, et cetera. So I recognize that having a company called Weekly Homes gave me a stewardship of influence that I need to work with

Henry Kaestner: and do steward that influence within the company. If I come on board and I’m a project manager and I’m one of the six. What am I going to experience a David weekly that are not likely to experience it of Pulte or somebody else like that?

David Weekley: Well, we bring everybody in here to the main office and we have a fabulous one on one. I get to meet them all and we talk and and they get inaugurated, so to speak. The main thing is we hire people that really care, right? So it starts off if you don’t get people with similar values. It doesn’t work. So we get people with summer values. We incorporate them well. We do multiple interviews before they come. We even interview their spouse.

Henry Kaestner: OK, I was going to ask you, is there something unique that you do in doing that early? And I’ll tell you that that’s one. So I’m glad you said that. That’s one of the secrets to our success at bandWith was interviewing spouses.

David Weekley: Right, right. And it’s it shows that we care about them and puts everything on a different playing field right now. And then, you know, you take care of people, you know, eight percent managing for one K, there’s profit sharing every quarter. We have weekly TV personal encounters where the manager and the team member, you know, we’re fortunate we’ve been on Fortune’s Unabridged Place to work like 14 times. And for a homebuilder, that’s not Google, you know, we’re out there building houses, it’s it’s hot and and, you know, in tough work and, you know, we don’t buy everybody lunch and we have a gym for them, you know? But it’s how we treat them and how they work well together.

Henry Kaestner: Tell me more about the personal encounters part.

David Weekley: Well, most people want to know how they’re doing and having their manager spend time with them each week for half an hour personal encounter and making it the team members time to feedback to the manager what their needs are and how they’re doing and what’s going on in their life and how they’re going with the kids. Or it’s a half an hour personal encounter every week with each team member. And it’s really their time with their manager. It also quite honestly cuts down on all the day to day interaction, having to go back and forth because they know they have this set half an hour.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, yeah, that’s very interesting. OK. So personally, Karen, something I didn’t know about are just shocked at the frequency of it. But what you just saw obviously suggested there is that actually, it sounds like it’s inefficient, but actually is remarkably efficient because it changes the dynamic of the other thirty nine and a half for forty nine and a half hours.

David Weekley: Right, right. It saves time. It doesn’t take time.

Henry Kaestner: OK, I want to go back to Dave quickly. Homes, you’ve won lots and lots of awards and accolades over the years. Are there any that really stand out more than others? That’s a leading question, because you’ve been invited to build for a company that I think we can all really admire. You may have a different answer to it, but if you don’t answer it the way I want you to answer it, I’m going to bring you back there, OK?

David Weekley: Telling me that you want to hear about the invitation to build it was Disney. Yeah, and we went in there celebration project in Florida. And I’ll never forget sitting in my office and getting a call from somebody at Disney. And you know, this is Dave and I’m with Disney in this. I don’t want any tickets or anything. So no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait. You know, the setting, the sales call. And he said, We’ve been looking at you for two years. We’ve interviewed your customers in Dallas and in Austin, and we’ve seen your designs. We’ve had this week that we ran that because they research stuff to death and we’d like you to come with us in Orlando and said, Well, we don’t build in Florida said we know that. And but we want you to come bill for us in Orlando. So anyway, we got together with him. I went there a couple of years early before the project was opened, so we could learn how to build in Florida, went to Disney, you, you know, university. And anyway, it was a great experience for us. They obviously know customers focus very well, building that community where we were the only builder to start out and finished up. Everybody else blew out over time because the customer expectations at Disney are through the roof, as you can imagine. And they were paying quite a premium for their home, on their side, not on our side. But it was a great experience and really we were building. It’s called T and traditional neighborhood design, very higher density smaller houses, but front porches really creating a sense of community. And that has really worked for us strongly for the last 20 25 years, for probably the largest candy builder in the country and a lot of flippers come to us because of that experience.

Henry Kaestner: So there are clearly things you picked out from that engagement that you then brought back into the business for sure. OK. David, the way that we first got together was actually not around entrepreneurship, not around business. So much, although I heard a little bit about your story and I think it probably showed a little bit about mine, but it was around the concept of giving. And how does one give? Well, when I remember being on the Board of Hope International about 10 years ago and you had been a very significant underwriter that I came to understand that there’s this guy is really thoughtful about giving in. So you spent a good amount of time with me. I don’t know if you remember the first time was at a gathering and maybe an hour on kind of like a veranda. And I want you to be able to see if we in our time that we’ve got left. If you can share some of the lessons that you’ve learned in philanthropy and in giving, you talked about the fact that you’ve done some things well. There are some things you still are learning as you get to that 10000 hours of giving. Can you share some of those with people, our demographic, we tend to have our average entrepreneurs, probably in their 40s. Many of them are coming into a place now where they’re having some financial success and they want to be generous. And their heart is oftentimes really influenced by a lot of stories. And yet they’re businesspeople they want to give, Well, what would you share with them?

David Weekley: I would share to you, no one go where they’re passionate and where they’re called. But number two, not to set aside their business acumen and learnings when they give. So often times, especially if you come from a place of faith, you kind of it’s like you do business with your head and you give with your heart. And to me, you ought to combine those just like, you know, hopefully we’re living out our faith during the week and work. I think we’re supposed to give with the same business acumen that we use in earning money. Just amaze me that people spend 40 hours of 50 hours a week, whatever earning sums, and then they’ll give at the drop of a hat without any investigation, understanding, etc. And since from my standpoint, it all kind of belongs to God anyway. You know, I have no idea why he put me in this place and decided to give me a company that’s grown like it is, et cetera. It’s just been a true blessing, and it really belongs to him. Why shouldn’t I give his money away as carefully as any other investment I make? And so to me, it’s just it’s a little bit of a mess to not take it that seriously.

Henry Kaestner: Can you give us some examples of maybe some given that you did early on? Were you learned some of these lessons or was it just always just baked into the way that you thought? Were you just like, you know, from the get go? I’m just not going to give to something that doesn’t satisfy both my heart and my head.

David Weekley: No, usually, you know, said people give to people. Right. And so, you know, somebody in they’re doing good work and they come up and they talk to you about something. And I did a lot of that giving starting out. And then over time, the more time I spent, I saw some of those funds were not being effectively used were being wasted. You know, the outcomes weren’t there that were hoped for or promised. And I just realized that if I was really going to take my giving seriously that I had to again, I had to pay attention and I gave the time as well. Most people don’t have the time or don’t make the time for me as an entrepreneur. Once I got up to a certain size, I realized, you know, I was working 70 hours a week flying all over the country, and I realized that I was getting out of my skis. I was losing control. I wasn’t good at managing four cities and 300 million. I mean, it was getting beyond me. And so when I committed to give half my time, it meant I had to go find somebody to run the place. And that worked out, obviously, to my benefit in both ways. It freed up the time to be serious about philanthropy, and it also helped the company by getting somebody that had skills that I didn’t have.

Henry Kaestner: You also did something on your company structure, right? You landed on kind of a unique ownership structure that allows the company to operate in perpetuity. Can you just share a little bit about that?

David Weekley: Yeah. As you get older and you have this company, especially if it’s a large company, you got to figure out what you’re going to do with it. Am I going to sell out or go public or what’s the endgame here? And I did lots of research, talked to lots of families, looked at all kinds of different opportunities, and I didn’t want to lose what we created as a team here in terms of the culture doing a great job for customers, et cetera. So I wanted to continue specifically as a private company. So I said, OK, how are we going to do that? How are we going to get alignment, et cetera? And I decided to do a third of it since I’d had luck with ownership being in other people’s hands. I said a third of it’s going to be owned by the employees, by the team members. And so I’ve got 18 percent of it in individual managers hands owning stock individually and then we got a 15 percent ESOP that we put on top of that. And then I wanted the charitable aspect that I’ve been doing with my own funds as the primary stockholder to continue. So I put a third of the stock into a charitable trust. And then the final third is going to be owned by the founding families to keep it like a family business into the future, that doesn’t mean everybody’s going to work here, et cetera. And whether my kids or anybody’s kids have the skills to earn three billion dollar company, that’s a pretty significant skill set. But you can be great owners and you can be in different positions if that’s their choice. But I just like the concept of a third, a third, a third, all with the line values, a third for the team members, a third for charitable interest and a third for the founding families. All of them have aligned interest in trying to do the right things for the right reasons and move on down the road and hopefully be here 100 years from now.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so you hit on a topic. I want to get back in a second back to giving and lessons learned what you’re getting as you spend ten thousand plus hours and giving. But when you talk about your family and you talk about your kids, I know you’ve got three. I know Robin the best Robin. I’ve known Robin for these 10 years because I know she helped us put together a trip to Nicaragua back before there are any traffic lights in Managua. You also come from a family of three boys. And I have three boys, so I’m a father of three boys. I’d love to get any reflections that you have of family dynamics, being a good brother, being a good father and seeing faith be a part of the family dynamic. Most of the people assume that are going to be parents. You’ve been thoughtful about this. Can you share something with us about family dynamics?

David Weekley: Well, the family dynamics started seeing my father put an envelope in the plate every week, right? He’d reach into his coat. The plate would come by. He’d put it in. And so right, I think things were mostly caught, not taught. And so my father was a generous man and that helped set me up that this is what we do. This is how we operate. There’s a father growing up. It was a challenge because I said my name was on billboards all over town, so my kids were labeled rich kids right in work. And so how do you handle that? So my kids earn half the money for their car. You know, we sit down with Amigos de las Americas. They went down to Central America and live for eight weeks in a village on the floor when they were in high school and did mission work. So I mean, they’ve seen that our life is not the usual life. And I think that that builds a responsibility for you. I mean, for me personally, I’ve just always come from a place of deep gratitude for my parents, where I am in America, et cetera. And out of that gratitude, I get a deep sense responsibility of what am I to do? You know, too much is given, et cetera. And then when I act out on that responsibility through philanthropy and working with people in other ways or in the company, I just get a deep sense of joy, not just happiness, but deep, deep joy feeling like I’m in God’s flow, feeling like I’m doing what I’m meant to be doing.

Henry Kaestner: So I think that you touched on something there that it’s taken me a while to really kind of embrace, which is this kind of selfish ambition, which is this personal joy that you feel as you give is what we are trying to always get when we are selfishly had selfish ambition before, but kind of wrestle with it. So I always had a selfish ambition and a selfishness that’s been a kind of the core of my life and influence all that I’ve done. But you’re getting on something there that’s really important, which is that that you actually have an opportunity to lean into that. Yes, you probably can give examples where you sacrifice and you take up your cross. And yet at the same time, this guy’s invited to life that is truly life and that you can have this selfish ambition of looking for joy. And there’s a recipe for it. And you found that in giving you found this joy and as cool as a BMW seven Series is and it’s more fun to drive than a Prius, you get presumably more joy from some of the giving you’re doing, regardless of what car you have. Or am I just putting words in your mouth, right?

David Weekley: No. And yeah, I’ve got a pickup truck now, so I’m sorry. It’s just I had the great good fortune to have had a lot early and had it taken away in the downturn and recognized that that’s not what life was all about. So my generosity came out of that understanding.

Henry Kaestner: OK. Share with us other things that you’re learning about giving and maybe way that maybe start off with this is just how do you all give? And for those that don’t know your daughter, Robin is running the foundation and you’re giving away more and more and more money. But what’s a way aside from the amount? But what’s a way in which you give differently than maybe did 10 years ago?

David Weekley: Well, like most entrepreneurs, I love deals in models. And so I used to give to whomever had the best model for something, whether it be, you know, five for finance or savings groups or community health workers or whoever had the coolest models that I thought, This is neat. Let me go, give to it. And what I’ve found out is that even more important than the model is giving you great leadership. It might seem self-evident, but I got caught up in the deal earlier. But, you know, if you got great leadership, they’ll adjust the model and get it to the best place. But if you don’t have good leadership, the best model will fail. So the key thing is that we really, really give to extraordinary leadership. So that’s that’s one thing.

Henry Kaestner: Before you go that, I’m going to come back and remind you that there’s a second thing, but that’s really, really important. That’s really hard to do. What are some different ways where you interact with a person and are able to determine whether they’re a great leader or not?

David Weekley: Well, have they established a vision that is big and broad and is a dean supported with a strategic plan that can get them there? And do they have people around them that can help get them there as well? So oftentimes will work with or meet the second layer of folks and not just to face the organization, but people really doing the work. And then you can really see what the organization is like and what they’re doing. And obviously always trying to focus on the outcomes of what’s happening. So, you know, it can be great people in lots of flash and a great deck and a great plan. But if the outcomes aren’t there, nothing else matters. And so again, I feel like I’m investing God’s resources and I want to have flourishing humans out there as a result of my investments.

Henry Kaestner: So you hit on something there that somebody that you and I both know. Kirk Kyle Hacker is the board chair. Praxis has impressed upon me and he said, You know, they’re really only three things for a leader to do is that you’re responsible for the vision you need to resource the enterprise and you need to get the right people on the bus. And it’s that emphasis on that third one that I think a lot of us miss. And that’s why I think that just in the same way that you interview spouses of employees, they’re coming on board the organization. Interviewing the next level of leadership helps you to really understand, Is this a great leader or are people really following the leader or not? And I think that’s really important. OK, so thank you. So the first one is leadership.

David Weekley: The second one, this really has three items. I look for an organization that uses leverage where my dollar will create $5 or $10 worth of impact. You know, I’m a real estate guy. I love leverage. So one authorization that has great leverage. I want to organization that can scale like geometrically, not arithmetically, but can really scale. So I want to fund organizations that can blow things up, right? That that can really impact the world. And then thirdly, I want to fund an organization, has some type of sustainability plan for the long term. Do they do anything where they can create their own income? Do they have a plan to get government funding, you know, or bilateral funding? Because if it’s an organization and the only way that they can grow is to go get more donors, and they will always be limited by how much that they can raise. So I want to get involved in things that can have high leverage, can scale and have some way to reach sustainability over time.

Henry Kaestner: Can you give us some examples of the leverage in the scale where you go ahead? And you know, if I write a check for a dollar, it’s going to lead to four or five in any samples of ministries. Charities doing that well, they come to mind.

David Weekley: Well, the one you mentioned, Hope International does it well because, you know they lend money, make interest on the money so they can fund part of their operations. Another one that I’m very involved with is Christian Camping. And so if we go and help and build a Christian camp, so if a Christian camp from go broke, add more cabins and you know, more dining halls, et cetera. Once that investments made, assuming you have a big assumption, great leadership and great board governance that can break even and provide returns and continue to impact kids for Christ forever. And so you plant the seed and it grows.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. So there’s this sustainability in there that you build out some infrastructure now parents feel better about spending twelve hundred dollars on the right.

David Weekley: And so things like that to me have a lot of impact for the dollar invested a lot of leverage.

Henry Kaestner: David, is we come to a close. I’m going to ask you the question that we ask every one of our guests. And that is that is there is something that God is teaching you through your time in scripture, your time in the Bible. It doesn’t need to be necessarily. This morning could be last week, but what are you hearing?

David Weekley: You know, something that is kind of guided me through my Christian journey as I try to think about what should I do this or should I go left? Should I go right? Should I go to more full time ministry or something else is I’ve always appreciated the version. First Corinthians 07:24 brothers and sisters. Each person as responsible to God shall remain in the situation God has called him to. And so to me, we’re in these life situations. And rather than presuming that to be a Christian brother or show my love of God or whatever, I’ve got to go, change my situation, take the situation to God’s, place me and figure out how I can take that to the next level and in a more Christian way, in a more loving way, in a more outreach way. How can I take where I’ve been placed and really plus it in a significant way through my faith and outreach, et cetera?

Henry Kaestner: It’s a great word. That’s a great word. So as we’re entrepreneurs, you’ve probably if you found this podcast, you probably know enough to know that God absolutely uses you in your business. And that being entrepreneur is by no means a second class citizen where we’re just doing this just so we can make money to do something else. Or gosh, if we’re really following God, we’d be in full time ministry in Botswana or something like that. But to stay where we are and look to honor God there. And of course, as you’ve heard from David today, you can make an impact on a lot of people’s lives where they live, as in the case, David. But each of us has an opportunity to be able to impact culture, and one of the things that I’ll take away from this is just the greatest investment that you can make, and culture is bringing the right people and giving them some skin in the game. But when you bring the right people in, getting to know them more than another important might and what a great way to be able to live on somebody. And when you’re having this every week where you’re following up with so many of this personal reflection moment to actually know who their spouses. So when I’m talking about going on a vacation or they’re talking about something that they’re wrestling with with their spouse in terms of where they give it, their time or their money, or what they do, or how they can support their spouse, you actually know them. And so that’s a big takeaway of mine for many. David, thank you for your time. Thank you for your friendship and partnership. And again, one encouragement that you are to me and all of us.

David Weekley: Thank you.