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Today’s episode takes us all the way to South Africa, and we couldn’t be more excited about it. And the question we’re going to start by asking is this: How can a garbage-collection company in South Africa undo the legacy of Apartheid? 

Bertie Lourens, CEO of WastePlan is here to share how their company is working to divert the vast majority of customers’ waste-stream from landfills and converting it into valuable, recyclable resources. They do this by employing hundreds of local workers, caring for their families, and investing in local schools to educate the next generation of South African leaders. 

And, as Bertie shares today, stewarding God’s creation has now grown into giving God a majority ownership stake in the company. Listen in to find out how…

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Bertie Lourens: I think God went after the very thing that could become a mammon stronghold in my life, that very thing that I believe I’m building, something of massive equity value. He said he wants that. And it was very difficult, but at the same time, I knew this thing is actually really worth minus something to deal with. I said, OK, God, I’ll give you shares.

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Darryl Heald: Hey, William. Doing well. Excited to be here today, especially to hear from our friend in South Africa.

William Norvell: I know. It’s amazing. It’s amazing to have you and Bertie and Darryl have known each other for a while. So it’s going to be fun to tease out the story. I know our audience is going to hear something that they probably haven’t heard before, and we hope the spirit can use BAM story and what got him and his faithfulness to encourage and inspire other faith driven entrepreneurs as we’re listening. So, Bertie, welcome to the show.

Bertie Lourens: Hello, William. Thank you for inviting me.

William Norvell: We’re happy to have you. And, you know, as we get started, one of the things we just always love to do is just to hear a little about you, who you are, where you came from, where you grew up, how you ended up becoming a Faith Driven Entrepreneur and you know, how you ended up sitting in that chair today with us telling the story.

Bertie Lourens: Thank you, William Norvell. First of all, I’m a son of God, God Almighty, the creator of the universe and everything in it. And I’m married to a beautiful, gentle Canadian lady. And she calls South Africa home for 15 years already and Foljambe grandkids. But I was really born and raised in a small mining town in the south east of Johannesburg in the 70s. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and that was during apartheid South Africa. It was a very difficult time for South Africa. And everything that we are facing today is the legacy of apartheid. And a lot of things that we do today is still trying to fix all the wrongs of the past. So I grew up as a young teenager seeing all these wrongs, and I just thought it might be wise just to give a little bit of context about apartheid and what the past is and was. But it was really a governing system that denied all nonwhite people any decent education, no voting rights and no rights for any managerial jobs. So you can understand what that means over a period of 40, 50 years of a father that needs to work in the best job we can get, as in a mine, as a general worker or in a factory or a construction company and a father teaching his son, this is the best that you can ever be. Just try and be the best general worker that you could ever be. And hopefully you could become the supervisor of general workers. And if you just keep perpetuating that over decades, a whole lot of anger happens, a whole lot of hurt and a narrative of blaming. So that’s that’s the South Africa that I grew up in. And I saw how apartheid came to an end. I saw how a new era was born for South Africa, and so how Nelson Mandela was released from prison and how he was elected as the first democratically elected president. And I started seeing how the entire country started rallying together to try and correct the wrongs of the past. And it’s been two decades and we still doing that. But it almost feels like we fail every decade. Our failures are bigger than the decade before. So that’s the context where I grew up. And personally, I was a very insecure teenager when I grew up because my father never told me that I had what it’s like. You never told me that he loved me. So I always grew up never knowing what that real lack was that I had inside of me. But I always knew that I just do not feel complete. Of course, I ran to alcohol and women and I was also a very good salesman when I was in school. And I very quickly learned that I could make money. And that’s when I realized how hold on, money will maybe fill that gap and it will make me popular among my teenage friends, which I did, of course. But luckily I got saved very early in my twenties. It’s just off to the one relational failure of the next. I realized that I just do not have what it takes to keep a life together and a surrender to Jesus at the age of twenty three in the late 90s. And it was wonderful. It almost felt like it was the beginning of a healing journey for me. Shortly after that I found a mentor that saw something in me and decided to help me to build the business because I knew I wanted to be a businessman because I could sell stuff and I thought if I can sell something, I can build a business. I started a business in 2004 and I am still running that same business.

William Norvell: Well, that’s amazing. Thank you for walking us through that. I’m going to ask if you would would you maybe spend. A few more minutes for our listeners. I mean, I hear that I’ve you know, I’ve read a little bit about apartheid maybe, but maybe it’s been a few more minutes on what it was like growing up. Like what did you sense in the air? What did you sense was was there and sort of from your perspective, because we have a listening audience as a white man. Right. What did it feel like at school? I don’t know. I don’t even know the right question to ask. But I’m just really curious for I just always learn, obviously, from people in different worldviews. And they grew up in different scenarios than me. And I just want to give you kind of an open mic for a couple more minutes to say just kind of what were some of those experiences like for you?

Bertie Lourens: William, you know, when you’ve become a teenager, when you hit your 10, 11, 12, 13 age, you start asking questions, you know, just things around you, you know, just that there are no black kids in your school. You notice the kids that you play sports against are all white. You’d notice that when you drive out of your town, you drive into a we call them townships, but it’s really chanty towns. And you just see black people there and you see that the people who work in the white people gardens are black people. And you don’t see black people driving cause they’re driving bicycles and their clothes don’t look decent. She’s noticed all these things and then you start asking you questions, you ask your parents these questions. But why you see beggars at the traffic lights are only like people and not white people. And you ask them, but why are beggars only black people? And then they answer you. But you can see it’s almost a governmental brainwashed answer that does not make sense for a 12 or 13 year old. And that’s when you start realizing. But hold on. Yes. Something wrong with the entire system. And you listen to adults, the way they talk around the barbecue, around the Sociales about them and us, and you ask yourself, but we are all one, we’re all one country wiser, them innocent. You know, you ask these questions and you get answers that just do not make sense. And to take it one step further. For most of these answers, there was a biblical scripture to, quote, to justify the system of apartheid and. You see black people doing the hard labor, almost like the Hebrew slaves, that both the infrastructure of Egypt, I saw how the black people, the majority of South Africa was like people were building the infrastructure for the minority. And something inside of me just said that is wrong. It just doesn’t make sense. It’s not sustainable. And then you start watching news, you start understanding what you hear on the news. You start hearing the conversations in the kitchen and around the dinner table with your parents, really as the tension started building up of the masses of South Africa, just saying enough is enough. We want voting rights. And you start hearing those conversations, the family conversations, the fear. And it’s a fear is a massive bloodbath, revolution coming. And we just do not have answers anymore. And I saw all of that and the fear also gripped me. But then I saw the miracle of a peaceful negotiation between Nelson Mandela and the ruling president, F.W. de Klerk, back then, and all of a sudden, very quickly, the tension released and there was an election. All the black people were granted voting rights and the ANC, which is the party that represented them, won, and there was joy and there was fear all at the same time, the wealthy whites that were able to flee, fled, packed up all the goods, and they fled everywhere else in the world because they believe that all the white people in South Africa were going to be murdered, that they believe in communities rejoiced and they sang Hallelujah. And you started hearing these messages of the fearful and the jubilant all more or less in the same space. And something inside of me said, that’s a miracle. What happened here. And it really was looking back now, it was a miracle, and very shortly after that, in the 90s, we just had a great leader and Nelson Mandela, who was very verbal in his communication. He understood the fear of the white communities. And he spoke to us on public television, where he made very, very bold statements of how you will protect us. And he made very bold statements to the angry majority black community in South Africa, saying we need our brothers, our brothers in our country to help us rebuild this country. And you just hear that propaganda coming from him and eventually you start believing this is going to turn out to be something beautiful. And that’s why we named it the Rainbow Nation, because we really believed something beautiful that was going to come out of it. And we still hold on to those hopes in those dreams because it’s still beautiful, but it just sometimes feels like it’s taking too long. But our timing is never the same as God’s timing.

William Norvell: Man, thank you so much for it. Such a beautiful job of taking us into some of those moments. And I just thank you for walking through that for our audience. And I’m interested in how did all of those experiences impact you as an entrepreneur, as someone who was studying what God wanted you to do? Right. And what was your part of that story that was being written in South Africa? Where did God find you and push you to an entrepreneurial journey?

Bertie Lourens: So I knew that I wanted to be a businessman for selfish reasons. I wanted to get rich. And that’s the end of that story. So I pursued that dream of becoming rich and I could see how this new South Africa attracted so much foreign investment. This was truly the hope for the continent. And we achieved amazing GDP growth. And I just realized I am in this ecosystem that is filled with growth and I have the skills to sell and I want to be a businessman. But as I went on doing this, I noticed that the people that we employ in business are poor and they are, many of them general workers that work for a very, very low salary. And that started bothering me. Now, the salary we pay is equal to what competitors in the market pay for those laborers. And when we pitch for contracts with clients, a big chunk of our service costs is labor costs. So if we overpay, then we are not competitive and we can grow. So we were forced to pay the same salary, but we realized we can do much more. So it’s just an awareness. It grew over time that while we employ poor people, we have the power of influence over them more than what political leaders have and more than what the church could ever have. Well, they work in our business. We found out that the one that receives a salary submits quite easily to the one who pays the salary. So the one who pays the salary has tremendous influence. And we I thought, let us use that and help people learn how to better themselves so that they can build a better future for themselves. And all of that comes down to education the way you think, because if you could educate yourself, you can acquire more skills or a higher skill, you can bring it to your workplace, you can get more responsibilities and then the higher salary. I’ve personally worked with some of the guys in the early years, and I’ve seen once they get that, it’s almost as if you’ve put them on a perpetual path out of poverty because he’s connected the dots. You said, I see how this thing works. It’s not a secret any longer. Bring more value, take more responsibilities and more money and then repeat. And that made me excited that we have this influence that we can help people out of poverty.

William Norvell: Amen, amen. Yeah, you’re sharing a gospel. You know, you share in the good news with people that you’re holding this good news that they don’t know about yet and educating them. What a beautiful reflection of the gospel where God placed you and where he put you. And and what are the unique things I’ve heard you talk about before that I’d love to have you share with our audiences? You know, you set out to build a business also where God would be a shareholder. And could you tell us a little about what that looks like to you, what that felt like to you as you dug into that and prayed about that? What does it look like to make God a shareholder of Voice Plan?

Bertie Lourens: Will needs to understand how that started. First of all, if you have a really good mentor and he is building a really successful business, all you need to do is just listen to him and do what he tells you. And that’s what I did because I didn’t know much. And what happens is if you enjoy enough success upon success and if you do not have people around you that are willing to hold up a mirror to you so you can see who you become and you will become proud. And I became very proud because I enjoyed tremendous success quite quickly and in the first years of the business. And I had to define later on to myself what is pride and pride to me is the conversation with self that says that I am better then and you can fill in the gap there with any name. I’m better then. And very quickly after that, pride leads to strife or strife and striving says that I would like to be better than so-and-so. So it’s a situation of measuring and seeing that you’re better than some, but then coveting the success of others. And that just put you on the spiral of destruction, which I didn’t see. I didn’t see it coming, but God did. And and luckily he rescued me there again shortly after the business, about seven years in, we started losing a tremendous amount of money, buckets full of money. And it came as a shock because I his Blue-Eyed Boy, I’m so successful. What happens? Why all of a sudden all these losses, whatever I worked so hard for over seven years, could be gone in a moment. And I found myself in my garage a year later on my knees, crying out to God to have mercy on me and rescue me from the situation and repenting of my pride and my arrogance and my striving and building it in my own strength. And he did. He came and he rescued me. William, it was very shortly after that the situation turned. It was miraculous and it turned. So you could imagine early the next year, I was still very raw and I was covered in the fear of God and just asking him, how do you want me to build this thing out now? I do not ever want to make the same mistakes again. And I felt God say to me, he wants me to give away, well, what did I have? I had detonated an insolvent company and I asked him if he wants that. But I heard God say the word equity to me. And that’s a very interesting word. Now, the founder of a business always believes that the equity value is hundreds of billions. The balance sheet could showed deep zeros that the founder always believes it’s worth more. And I think God went after the very thing that could become a Maymont stronghold in my life, that very thing that I believe I’m building, something of massive equity value. He said he wants that. And it was very difficult, but at the same time, I knew this thing is actually really worth minus something to deal with. I said, OK, God, I’ll give you shares that you’re going to show me how. And I asked him if he does if you about by 30 percent. And he remained quiet and then I gave him 30. And that’s where we are. So from three very shortly after that, we grew to fifty one because I immediately so I started understanding the benefits of inviting God Almighty, the creator of everything, to have him as a shareholder in your business. The value proposition is just so big at first you don’t know it. But once I did it, I started realizing what I did and I realized, but hold on, let’s let’s give him a controlling stake and then I can sit back and watch this thing grow. And that’s where we are today.

William Norvell: And hey, man, I love parts of that story that, of course, because we have a God that runs after us harder than we can imagine that he rescued you. But hearing a practical it just gets me every time when you hear of God coming to the rescue and the audience knows I cry a decent amount. So, you know, I may cry again now, but it’s just a beautiful story of you submitting. And, you know, and it’s not a prosperity gospel. It’s a reality of the scripture. Right. That like, when we do turn to the Lord and when we do repent and we do give it back to him like he’s here and he’s there for everyone listening and not everyone’s in that spot. People have already done it. But, man, if you are run to him, be with him. It’s an amazing story. And, you know, and I would imagine the the way God wants to run in their business or be a shareholder may look different, but to submit that to him is the point. Right.

Bertie Lourens: William, I think, is going after the one thing that he knows will drive the biggest wedge between you and him sometime in the future. And he’s going to go after that thing. And all he’s really asking is just to surrender, to surrender, whatever it is, just surrender. I’ve got this. I know your future better than you will ever know. Just let me do this with you and it will be so worth it. It’s always asking,

William Norvell: hey, man, I’m going to turn you over to Daryl after one more question here. I realized, of course, we got so excited about the wisdom you have here. I forgot to ask you. Could you tell our audience a little bit of what a waste plan is, how many employees you have, what you guys do in South Africa? I think the name tells a little bit. I think people are already on the edge of their seat knowing a little bit. But could you tell us a little bit more just about the business and who you try to serve and how you try to care for God’s world through the business?

Bertie Lourens: Yes, absolutely. So most companies have ways as part of the production or service offering, and we found that that’s normally an afterthought and it’s a liability. It’s an ever increasing cost that somebody somewhere has to manage. But there’s no specialist or an expert or dedicated person to do that. So we offer a service companies, food companies, factories, hospitals, hotels, shopping centers. We will bring our personnel onto your site. We will segregate your waste. We will divert as much away from landfill as possible, and as we divert the waste away from the landfill, we turn it from a liability into an asset and we have enough data to show it’s an appreciating asset. So we take waste with segregated at the source in separate streams. We sell those streams. The value of those streams we sell increase in value year on year. We return the biggest part of that value back to the client. But what happens in the process is that person that did that sorting and the handling of the waste, he realizes. But I was part of turning a wasteful item that’s a liability into an asset. And in that process, we generated new revenue. I earned a salary. And with that comes dignity because I was part of turning value out of something with no value. And that’s the beautiful part of what’s happening here. We have about a thousand employees scattered over 10 cities and we have about six hundred and thirty clients that we service and waste gets segregated from all the sites moves into big processing centers, which we call recycling centers. Where we do final sorting, we compress them and we sell them to the highest bidder. So we always try to put

Darryl Heald: a lot of that waste trader in a variety of ways. Just love hearing the story. And, you know, my love for South Africa, I mean, it just we’ve had lots of great adventure. This a lot of fun to be have a chance to tell more people just how God’s moving in your life and your business in the country, things like that. So I want to take us back when we first met. I think our audience has already heard there is a deep thinker and I just remember where we have a mutual friend. He invited you and Leslie to this journey, generosity. Why don’t we just start there? What did you think about that? And just the process that happened yesterday?

Bertie Lourens: It was mind boggling to process all the information that was presented over that week. And now I saw how very, very poor people gave everything in those videos. I mean, those discussions. And I saw how excessively wealthy people did the same. But what struck me was that the richest and the poorest were equally happy. Joy, Joy, that is deeper than what a dictionary can define for you. And I think that’s what hooked me, that I was chasing really after satisfaction all my life. And you think that wealth will give it and then you’ll meet people and they’ll tell you, no, it doesn’t. But that we can realize. Hold on. I think I got the secret. Yes. This is the thing that I’ve been chasing after all my life. This deep satisfaction and joy comes only from a place of true generosity. And I was just trying to piece that together. What would that look like for me when I leave this weekend? And I wanted to just take in as much as I possibly can while I’m there so that I have as much to work with when I go back home on the Monday.

Darryl Heald: Thanks for sharing that. I know there’s a hope and desire that all of us as entrepreneurs and investors, that we understand that value proposition that is more blessed to give and receive and that we can truly live in that point of joy. So a couple of things, though, that I just when I think about Botein, I just I love how you are walking out this jury. One of them is when we were driving home from the office to your house for a dinner one night and up ahead of us, there are some guys at the light who were begging for money and things like that. So take the story from there. I thought that was just I forget the date of its day, but tell our audience just what you do. I mean, this is just like everyday generosity. I just love this piece.

Bertie Lourens: Is there so the South Africa that I just told you about, I just want to give you a little bit more context. The unemployment level now sits at thirty eight percent unemployment. The amount of school dropouts is ridiculous. Something like forty eight percent of people at starting grade one get to grade 12. So you could imagine the amount of people on the streets that do not have jobs. His name is Bennett, is a baker, is bent over. He was hit by a car. A drug is back and he’s never been able to get surgery. So he’s bent over almost 90 degrees. And he’s just let the traffic light on my way home. And he’s got the brightest of smiles. So it’s easy to be generous to him. But surprisingly, most people are not. After the Jörg weekend, one of the first discussions that I think you see every time is, well, is it right to give to a beggar? It’s just going to buy alcohol. And I remember that weekend someone say that I don’t know who it was. So that person said, but it’s his job to give account for the money he received. It’s not your job to give account on his behalf. You just gave your job is to give account for the money God gave you. And the way you live with that, so I just decided my wife and I, we decided we are going to give to every beggar we went ERG we started changing money to have as much money as possible. We quickly ran out of money. So that plan didn’t work well. We then became a lot of Budweiser and we broke it up into smaller denominations of money and so that you can give less but give to more people. And then it is just one of the beneficiaries of that decision. And they love seeing my car. And if he hasn’t seen my car for a while, especially now during covid, if I drive past it on my way to the office and he sees me, he will stop all the traffic just to get to me because he knows he’s going to get something.

Darryl Heald: Well, I just love the relationship you have. I mean, it was obviously that was I mean, that’s happened dozens and dozens of times. You’ve talked about education and the importance of education. Let’s talk about what you and lesslie is from a kingdom investing side. We think about this giving. What are your particular passion about? What are you excited about giving to right now?

Bertie Lourens: There are it’s really the education the education states and South Africa are alarming. It is a bomb that will explode if nothing happens. There’s another state. About four percent of kids that start in grade one will pass. Math increased above four percent. So you have ninety six percent of your population that cannot count. So the quality of jobs and the amount of jobs that they’ll get is few. And so the amount of unemployed people, the volume of people that are unemployed is growing year on year. And it just doesn’t make sense that one should live in this country and think that that’s OK. So we put as much effort into educating people and just basic skills. So first of all, a capital is the foundation that reform really is the structure we formed where we could have got as a legal shareholder in our company. And the Nyko Capital uses all of its funds and it throws it into schooling. So there’s a few schools up here in Pretoria and Johannesburg, Christian schools. So we try and throw all our skills in there, all the networks, all our relationships, and as far as possible that we could use our resources and our assets. And money is just a very small part of that. The lady that works in our kitchen, who cleans our house, looks after the kids when we are not there to try and do as much as we can for her and her kids in terms of housing, schooling, the gospel, help them understand the gospel of the gospel and preach the gospel in the communities. The guy works in our garden and we just felt that that is practical in South Africa. If one just starts there, you’ll stay busy for the rest of your life just there. You do not have to go after big things, just those immediate lives around you influence them and help them educate themselves.

Darryl Heald: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Some of that is a real joy for me to see some of those schools with you on that last trip. I mean, how many students do you have in these schools now?

Bertie Lourens: They’re all there’s about a thousand students, I think in all the schools where we’re involved. I’m particularly drawn to one school with its two hundred kids. It’s in the middle of Mamelodi township. It is a Christian private school. It’s private because there’s no other support coming from the government. So it’s really donations. And some of the parents are paying fees to keep the kids in there. But it’s beautiful what’s happening there. It’s kids that have all the odds stacked up against themselves. If they did not go to the school, they would go to one of our failing government schools that are producing the results I’ve just mentioned. So here we are creating an environment for them where they have great education, great principal with a great teaching group that we teach the gospel, we model the gospel, we show the gospel, we model grace. We model generosity. And we try and show them what good fatherhood looks like because that’s the one big lacking thing in the poor communities. There are no fathers there. So the way I see it is zero two hundred kids that will become two hundred families one day and 200 families. We’ll have a chance at success in South Africa because of the school and that on its own is so rewarding because you look in the eyes of these kids and you interview them and you hear what they say and you hear kids say, I need to live generous with my fellow students. That comes from a kid that has nothing. And that’s beautiful because that kid gets it and that kid is going to enjoy success and joy because they get that concept of generosity.

Darryl Heald: That’s great. Thanks for sharing that, Betty. You also have a real passion for leadership so that you’re studied this for your own self as a leader, your company and your community and your family things. Tell us a little bit more about these. What’s driving you to do these interviews with other leaders there in South Africa?

Bertie Lourens: Daryl, I just started with interviewing my mentor when he was getting old, and I needed to have some video footage of what he’s taught me over the years. So I asked him and questions some of the questions are ones I’ve never had time to ask him. And some of the questions that I asked that deeply impacted me. So I asked him that. I took a video of it. We broke it into 10 little snippets, videos, and the purpose was really just to release it into our organization. But the value was so much that we thought, let’s literally just start a YouTube channel called Stories that Inspire. We posted on there and then for anyone to enjoy. And I thought, that is wonderful. And I asked God if he wants me to continue with that and felt free to go find another leader like him. And my deal with God was if he had to keep sending me people that are willing to be interviewed by me, I will continue to do so. And we are on series six, I think, right now. And I am just enjoying hearing from these people because everyone who has achieved the level of success are always keen to share it. They’re not stingy. Everyone who has had success wants to share it. So that’s what I do. Like I ask them and I try and package it in snippets that other people can enjoy and use and benefit from Amen Burty.

William Norvell: As we come nearer to close, I want to give you an opportunity just to maybe speak, just to have an open mic a little bit again to talk to the entrepreneurs out there that may be listening. And any other advice that you might have about, you know, just how God taught you to lead a business from a faith first perspective.

Bertie Lourens: Thank you, William. Yes, this all comes from the journey of starting to surrender, and I have developed a conviction that our father wants us to steward his stuff on his behalf. Now, we’ve heard this. This is all tacky, but if we can just pause for a moment and think of your earthly dad had assets with hundred billion dollars and he asks you, my son, would you take over the running of this company while I’m alive, then what would you do? How would you do that? Well, the first thing is you’ll be very fearful and respectful. And as you step into those very big shoes, but you will honor him and every one of your decisions, you will seek him in every one of your decisions. And you must check in with him daily. And our father, the creator of the universe, has created resources that generates about 90 trillion dollars of GDP every year. We are his sons and daughters and he wants us to stay with these assets on his behalf. So why do we get caught up so much and what we create and what we hold onto this such big journey out there? And by calling for us and I almost feel like our father is sitting on the edge of his seat waiting for us to surrender and let go of our stuff and the power that our stuff has over us and said, God, I’m your son and I’m here to steward your assets on your behalf, for your glory. God showed me in Romans eight. I’m about 19 and this is my translation of the all of creation is waiting eagerly for the Sons of God to stand up and reveal themselves and say, here we are. And then to do what? To risk your creation out of the bondage of corruption and to then steward it in a way that gives glorious liberty. What is glorious liberty? It is it’s a freedom that gives glory back to him. And I think that’s our calling our sons and daughters. So when he gives us assets to steward companies and people, he wants us to steward in a way that brings liberty, freedom to the resources of the earth that we stewarding the animals, the plants, the rivers, everything, the resources in it and the people and all of creation should the glory to father because of the way that we is sons of stewarding his assets. And I just think it’s such a big calling that we cannot waste time to get caught up in stuff and status, you know, and accolades. And I just felt that the only way that I was able to do this is to reach a place of complete surrender. So when I gave God shares in the business and I gave him control, it almost felt like that was absolutely necessary for that to happen before I could really stupid things on his behalf. Before then, it was all for me, as for me, my family, their inheritance, my legacy and all that nonsense.

William Norvell: Oh, I love that the it wasn’t something you begrudgingly did or maybe you did, but it was necessary. It was like that was the only way for it to work, actually, in sort of God’s world is to take that step of obedience.

Bertie Lourens: Yeah. And I want to add one more thing. The second point to that is the idea of generosity, how to be generous lives. I realized that a father is a generous father and the father of lies is a stingy father. And selfishness and stinginess come from the fear of scarcity. And generosity comes from the understanding of abundance and abundant provision from our father. And it’s almost as if we could live our lives in either one of these two veins. You can’t be in both. And when you realize that my father is the father of a Bynum’s and I can share my resources abundantly with the ones around me and I can live abundantly gracious with the people that I lead, employ my family, my friends, my neighbors, then you see the lie of the enemy. But until you make that choice, you live in the lie of the enemy. You always think, especially in South Africa, in a declining economy. How can I put away as much as I can now so that my kids will be OK? The day when I die. And I think we all live with that fear. That is the father of lies that are whispering those lies until years. And he whispers little lies. He puts little packets of lies and fear around our lives, neatly wrapped as gifts, tiny little packets. And as soon as you take the one and you open it up, you give him legal right to enter and cause havoc. And you cannot live in faith and fear. So Faith says, my father is abundant, is my provider, and he will look after me and my family. And fear says it’s up to me to put away as much as I possibly can so that my kids and my family are going to be OK one day.

William Norvell: Amen, I almost hate to ask another question, a wonderful place to end, but we do have to get to our closing question because we always ask it. And so usually I would cut myself off. But thank you for sharing that. And our closing question, will we love to ask, is just where God has you in his word today, where he has you in his scripture. And that’s something that you could have been meditating on for a season. It could be something God revealed to you this morning. But just to let our audience in to where God’s walking with you in his holy word today,

Bertie Lourens: William, I want to share something that happened over the last week. I got busy. I had to travel to Capetown, came back, went on a mountain bike race, traveled again. And this morning when I sat down, I opened my word. I saw it for the last eight days. I did not have a quiet time. So the last eight days, I got so busy that I didn’t sit with my father and I speak with him. And I realized the day before I exploded in the meeting because I acted out of my flesh, out of anger. And when I said with God, I repented for not seeking him daily. I allowed business to come and take me away from him. And I felt the father showed me the picture that the enemy wants us just to move away from my father slowly. You’ll never come with a big bang for your give away. His plan will come slowly. You’ll distract us with things that he knows will move us away from our father. And if you can get us away for long enough, then introduce a stage to riches, lies and fear. Because if we’ve been away from our father long enough, he know that we will not hear this Holy Spirit in the moment and introduce introduces little lines once we take them. He comes in with a lot of lies and after a week I was operating fully in my flesh, making fleshly decisions and exploding at people. I’m making bad decisions and that’s just a fresh revelation that I did not set before my father every day. And I ask him advice and if I don’t sit in his word, so his presence and I listen to the Holy Spirit, I do not care how long I’ve been a Christian. I will fail. I will act in inflation, will make bad decisions, and I’ll disappoint them.

William Norvell: Amen Amen, so grateful for you joining us today, so grateful for your story, so grateful for sharing what God’s done and through your obedience and at times your disobedience. And thank you for sharing both of those and how he still comes to the rescue through all of those examples. So grateful for you and grateful for your story.

Bertie Lourens: And give William.

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If you’re involved in Private Equity, you simply have to listen to today’s guest. And if you’re not involved in Private Equity, well, you’re still going to want to listen to Brent Beshore because in addition to taking an alternative approach to private equity, he’s an all around interesting person. 

When it comes to PE, Brent doesn’t want to replace the founder. He doesn’t want to run up debt. And he doesn’t have a timeline for when he wants to sell. How does that work in practice? 

Hear the CEO and Founder of Permanent Equity tell you himself…

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Brent Beshore: It’s impossible to make good long term decisions if you’re short term in nature and use short term capital. And again, this kind of goes down to the structure, you know, when your time horizon is stretched to eternity. It does fundamentally change the way that you think about the day to day and the things that previously were anxiety filled. Frustrating not to say that I’m never frustrated or anxiety filled. That’s not true at all. But certainly a lot of that stuff has faded away. And I find myself a lot more comfortable that I worship a living God, that sovereign.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast, Brant, be sure. In the House, Brant, welcome.

Brent Beshore: Thank you so much.

Henry Kaestner: One of the things that we do, many of our listening audience may not know this, but we do a couple of different things before we actually go live with you. One is that we do our infamous three to one clap to sync up our audio tracks, which sometimes works out really well and sometimes doesn’t. But the other one is more materially is that we pray. We pray for you, the listener. We pray for the technology, and we just pray generally for the guest in our time together. And in the prayer today, William had mentioned something that I thought was really interesting, alluded the fact that at one point in time he cold called our guest today. Brant and I had known that. And so, William, what was that all about?

William Norvell: Absolutely. You know, I have been following Brett’s career and sort of what he was doing, permanent equity when we were getting started with the lower middle market side of sovereigns and had run into a couple of roadblocks. Honestly, just that I thought he could understand from what I had read, from what I had heard. We’re going to find out later. I think Brant is a brilliant communicator, both with his writings and with what he talks. No pressure.

Brent Beshore: Brant, can we lower the bar of expectation?

William Norvell: Nope, nope, nope. We’re sick of a brilliant or signaler brilliant his writings and what he gives away and the thoughts and the way he catalyzes those are just really, really well done. And I said, you know what? I think this guy is going to be able to help with this problem. I have. And I forgot how I found your number or whatever, but I got your note and you were gracious to get on and spend to get half an hour with me walking through it. It was super helpful for what I was doing. And from then we found out we had a shared faith and we’ve been able to connect on other things. And gosh, I want to say it’s like three years from now. Now we find ourselves on this podcast and with tons of mutual friends. And as I was praying, it’s just like I am just always amazed at the plan God is writing that we don’t know, that we have no clue what God is up to. And we find ourselves here collaborating in a deeper friendship and in a friendship with more people. It’s just fun. It’s just fun. Indeed.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed. And I’ve been looking forward to this. You know, it’s infrequent that we have guests on the podcast out of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast or the Faith Driven Investor podcast that, like me, our adult converts who came to faith later in life. And so Brant and I share that. And I think we can get into a little bit. In fact, maybe we’ll even to start there and just bring us up to speed with who you are, where you come from, your early days. Growing up, you’re wrestling with faith the time before you became an investor.

Brent Beshore: Yeah, well, again, thank you for having me on the show. I don’t think is particularly interesting for me to tell people about my background growing up in Joplin, Missouri. But, yeah, I grew up in Joplin, Missouri, southwest corner of the state. My dad worked for the same company for a long time. My mom was a college professor and we attended most of the time, attended a Presbyterian church in Joplin growing up as a PC USA church. And it just never clicked for me. I mean, I can remember when I was a real young kid, you know, I’ve always felt a pretty significant battle with pride. I didn’t realize at the time it was a battle with pride. But I can remember being six or seven years old, sitting in vacation, Bible school. And, you know, they kept talking about all this stuff. And I was like, this all seems very far fetched. And I don’t know why they keep talking about. But they had great sex, you know, and that’s what really mattered to me. And, you know, the fat kid, as long as you can just feed me snacks and I’ll pretty much go along with anything. So, you know, but I can just remember from a young timelike, just I just wasn’t a believer. Like I didn’t believe. I thought it was made up. And I didn’t see a lot of people who centered their life on it. It felt very much like religion. And now that I’m finding I mean, I think there’s a huge split. And I certainly have gone through this phase. And I think in my faith journey, is it not really being about God and being about me and it being about my religious performance. And so, you know, kind of continued on. I remember I asked my mom to drive me to the church when I was fourteen, probably. And anyway, I just had a lot of questions. I had a lot of questions about why God was who he claimed God was and why I couldn’t have faith. And I pretty much made up my mind at that point that I was an atheist. But, you know, this guy was an amazing human beings names Bill Christmas since passed an incredible teacher, kind, loving, gentle man who spent an hour with a punk, prideful fourteen year old kid who was pounding him with all kinds of questions, which I thought were incredibly novel. And come to find out, we’re like the little baby steps that you first start thinking about when you’re thinking about faith. I walked out of there and I was just convinced that there was no God and I was convinced that, you know, I’d kind of go along with whatever society wanted me to, but I wasn’t going to have any faith. I went to college, a school in the East Coast. All my professors were pretty much atheist. I mean, maybe some of them had some a little bit of faith here and there, but not much took religion classes from people who made fun of Abraham and, you know, said that it was all just a ruse to control people. And so, you know, became more and more hardened and got into new atheism. It was a very attractive, you know, the Dawkins of the world and the Hitchens of the world and got into sort of a really condescending view of faith. And that was really my life until kind of mid to late twenties. I mean, I woke up when I was. Twenty seven, twenty eight, I had gotten lucky a few times, and I really say lucky, I mean, obviously now I would say providential, but truly I couldn’t explain why I had been successful. I mean, I look back and point to a few things in hindsight, but I woke up with a beautiful wife who loved me. We didn’t have any kids yet, but I had more money than I needed. And a career which was seemingly on a really great trajectory. And I just felt empty and hollow inside. And I just thought there had to be something more than this. I was just kind of at the point where I was like, what is going on? And around that same time, I met some people who just acted very differently and who loved in a way that I didn’t know was possible and who didn’t have egos and who just were delight to be around and had fun and just lived free. And I was so attracted to me and I kept getting to know these people. And I said, what is it about you? What do you know? They say, oh, well, I mean, we’re followers of Jesus. And I was like, Oh, come on, please, seriously, that’s the thing, you know? And they took me under their wing and fed me lots of books and fed me meals. And it was a long, slow, painful journey to faith. Like God just wouldn’t let go is how I would describe it. And so yeah.

Henry Kaestner: So yeah, OK. So I completely identify with that. Twenty it was my age and and there’s some wrestling involved too. One of the things that’s impacted me recently is spending some time in jail packers knowing God. And yesterday I’ve been struggling a little bit with some of the Genesis stories. I mean there’s a lot to just be curious about, you know, in the tent and some of these between Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they’re not always exemplars. Right. And I was particularly struggling with the Jacob story and and Jay Packers’, knowing God, he did a great job of talking about the wrestling with God story, which I had not fully understood, and putting the hip out of place. And one of the things that helped me about that lesson was just understand that Jacob just went and grabbed God, wanted to get out of there. You know, as the story goes, God said, let me go. And Jacob wouldn’t let him go until he got the blessing. And I thought, wow, that’s really interesting. As sinful as far as I am, there’s some precedent here that is messed up, as Jacob was. I mean, he was a deceiver. I mean, that’s his name. It just really kind of messed up in his dealings. But he wanted God. He wanted a guy. He wrestled with God. But in wrestling with God, he knew enough to know that he really wanted to hold on to him, and he did until God got his blessing. And do you see parts of that wrestling with God in your own life?

Brent Beshore: Yeah, I mean, this was a huge I think when I was a hardcore atheist, I looked at myself as being smart and capable and competent. I could I could do things. I didn’t need anybody. I didn’t I certainly didn’t need God. And then, you know, I was reading the Bible. Everyone’s an idiot in the Bible pretty much, right. Everyone but Jesus pretty much an idiot. And thankfully, because I’m an idiot, too, it gives me a lot of hope that God to work through me. I mean, literally, if you look at all the biggest figures in the Bible, I mean, they were all messed up in their own ways and God redeems them. Right. And I think that’s where the story for me of wrestling with God is really wrestling with who am I and wrestling with the deep seated sense that I have in my life. And the more that God brings them to the surface, the more that I wrestle with God with them. It’s amazing. It’s a I mean, it’s what a gift. I see things that have had a grip on my life for my whole life. And I still, by the way, so much, very much an idiot. So but it’s amazing to see those things lose grip. And for me to change my heart, to actually change towards people and to truly love and care for people in a way that I didn’t even know was possible.

Henry Kaestner: Very interesting. OK, so it looks going to take us to a conversation about permanent equity. You have a day job. Your faith informs a day job and will impact that a little bit, too. But you are the first person that we’ve had on the Faith Driven Investor podcast that is auditing seminary classes. So you’re serious about building out your knowledge? How do you have time and what brings you to it? Because you’ve been doing this for a little while, too, right?

Brent Beshore: Yeah. Yeah, I started let’s see, this is my third or fourth semester now of adding seminary classes. I mean, just a great opportunity. There’s a cohort at my local church that was going through Covenant seminaries classes, and I was lucky enough to be brought along. And it’s a great group of people and just trying to learn and explore. And I mean, how do I find time? I don’t know. God sort of I think makes time for it. And I love it. I mean, I’m a huge nerd and I love to read and learn. And I think if anything, if I’m being honest, it’s a lot easier for me to learn about God than to be in a relationship with God. And I think that’s actually something that I’ve been struggling with in seminaries. I’m very drawn to the intellectual side, the knowledge and the sort of apologetics and the defense of the faith and being thoughtful and logical about why I believe what I believe, which I think is a bad thing at all. I think that you can have a right doctrine and have a horrible, sinful heart that has turned away from God. And I think that’s something that I’ve actually been struggling with. As you know, I would say anybody listening who I don’t want them to find it intimidating like the Amen, amen. An area like I don’t want to be like this is somehow impressive, like for me, honestly, the more that I focus on my relationship with God and the less that I care about knowing more than everyone else. And I think that’s the comparative side of me. The prideful side of me, I think is it comes through in that the more I just want to focus on God, the better it is. And so I would say is being a seminary or reading, you know, you’re obviously a huge reader, Henry, as well. And, you know, I think that’s great. I think, though, that I’m learning the more I mature in my faith, the more I’m just really trying to focus on who got it and being relationship.

Henry Kaestner: You know, I think that’s really interesting. And I think that a lot of investors probably aren’t in the same spot. I know that I am as an investor, you do want to know a lot. You want to know about your industry. You want to know about your model. You want to know about deal structures. And so I think that we have a propensity in our relationship with God, with three thousand plus pages in a Bible to know as much of the text as we can to know systematic theology, to know the writings of what field or Spurgeon are and just gone. But the deep personal relationship where God is our father, ABBA is really hard for us. So that’s a great encouragement. You hit on something personal for me and likely for others as well.

Luke Roush: How do you think know. So just as somebody who’s an adult convert to faith, a lot of times that actually kind of changes everything about how you think about family, how you think about fatherhood, being a husband in an investor, maybe to speak a little bit to when you had this awakening, you’d had some success already as an investor, how did your coming of faith impact how you thought about shepherding capital? And maybe that dovetails into, you know, what I perceived to be a fairly novel structure in your fund with an evergreen structure. So you had any comments on that?

Brent Beshore: Yeah. I mean, the short version is it changed everything. I mean, I think that the things that hasn’t changed or the things that I’m still holding on to, that I haven’t surrendered to God and that somehow I want to go and wallow in my blood in that area in my life, that I’m learning more and more to have a distaste for. I mean, I still have those areas of my life that I haven’t. And I think that know in the business world looking at is everyone’s job around me to serve me. I mean, which is really as the boss, as the CEO. I mean, I had a mentality that was look like I don’t know how to say it. It was all about me. Right. And it was about we are going to work for me. I’m going to make money for me. Everything was around me. And that’s the exact opposite of the gospel, right? I mean, we worship a savior who willingly gave his life and who gave up everything for us. And, you know, what is the purpose of life? I mean, I think prior to becoming a believer, it was to amass as much. I mean, it was it was gain and it was to try to make as much as I possibly could and get as much as I possibly could and experience as much as I possibly could. And, you know, a lot of those tastes have changed in the more that I’m able to love people. I mean, that’s really comes down to. Right. And what does it mean to love somebody? It means not to love them in the way that you want to be loved. It’s to love them in the way that they want to be loved and that they should be loved. And so what does it look like in a business deal? You know, I saw am wrestling with a lot of this. I mean, to be completely frank, the challenge I have is it’s easy for a deal to look Zero-Sum. And I don’t think it ever is right. And I think there’s always an opportunity to collaborate with people and to make more. And that’s what God wants us to do, right? God wants us to love one another through the structured business, to grow the garden, to grow the cities, to encourage human flourishing. And I think that, you know, capitalism is an amazing, amazing vehicle, a gift from God to be able to do that. And so I don’t see conflict with that except for I see conflict with my own sinful nature, how I frankly, I want to be smarter than other people. I want to get a good deal. And I think that oftentimes when I feel that pull of wanting to do better in a comparative way, I think that’s where I’m in danger of harming the deal. I’m in danger of, you know, setting things up poorly and suffering the consequences down the road. And so when it comes down to it, the biggest thing, which is we’re in the investment business, we’re in the negotiation business, we’re buying companies or at least buying majority stakes in companies. We want to do it in a way that honors the people that we’re working with. And we want to work with them after the closing. And we want to have them feel good about it. We want to have them excited about the future. And oftentimes my son screws that up. You know, if I’m just being honest, like we’re all messy. I explained some of the other day, like, how can you be a believer? I say, well, look, the Bible explains a world that I see around me, the history that I experienced and predicts the future better than any other system I’ve ever been aware of by a mile. And one of the core doctrines is the doctrine of sin, right. Paired with the doctrine, the Imago day. And when you pair those two things together, it says that, look, we all have this incredible darkness in us that wants to come out, that’s comparative, that’s sinful, and we want to use it everywhere. And by the way, were made in the image of God. And if we fully appreciated each other, we’d be tempted to worship each other. Right. I mean, that’s how beautiful it is. I think in the ideal world that comes through. Right. I mean, you get this incredible excitement around a deal about the possibility of it. And it feels like the Imago day, right? It feels like we’re going to come together to build something more. And then you got everyone sending everyone’s messing this kind of junk all over, right, and you’ve got the lawyers are junk and we’re junk and we’ve got all this junk together. And it’s just it causes a mess. And so I think most of my job these days is trying to weed through the mess and look at my own self and my messiness and say, OK, how can I minimize the mess that I’m going to be putting into this transaction and really just try to figure out how I can give grace to people and how I can love people despite them, maybe not always having the best intentions like, oh my, perhaps I don’t either. You know, I should never be surprised by it.

Luke Roush: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe any kind of quick thoughts on things that got easier when you became aware of your faith and how you executed as an investor and then things that got harder as you became aware of that.

Brent Beshore: Yeah. So I mean, I would say the thing that became easier so it’s impossible to make good long term decisions if you’re short term in nature and you’ve short term capital. And again, this kind of goes back to the structure. You know, when your time horizon is stretched to eternity, it does fundamentally change the way that you think about the day to day and the things that previously were anxiety filled. Frustrating not to say that I’m never frustrated or anxiety filled. That’s not true at all. But certainly a lot of this stuff has faded away. And I find myself a lot more comfortable that I worship a living God, that sovereign. And that has I mean, there you go, Sovereign’s Capital. It’s almost like it’s intentional, you know, well played, well played. Except I’m just trying to plug in there for you. You’re welcome. 20 bucks. Anyway, when you stretch your time horizon to eternity, it changes the way that you can look at individual short term issues and allows you to think, frankly, much more clearly about what’s really important, what’s not. And for me, that has enabled a lot better relationships and frankly, it’s enabled a lot better transactions. What has gotten harder? Man, I used to love to get a good deal, like a good deal, like I used to love to be able to be like, look, I’m smarter. This is how I arrange things. So I did. And oftentimes I was doing it in a zero sum sort of fashion. And even though I still have the tendency to want to go there, I think trying to create win win win scenarios, you know, sort of if you think about all the stakeholder groups, because oftentimes we just think about the seller and the buyer. There’s a lot of other stakeholder groups than those two parties. Right? Certainly the seller, the buyer. You have the investors behind us. Right, that are our clients as well. You have the employee base. You have a leadership team. You have the vendors who most people don’t think about. You have the communities in which they sit. And of course, then you have the clients. How do you create a scenario where you’re encouraging flourishing among all those groups? And yes, you are sitting at the Nexus Point, right. That’s the beauty of capitalism. And you’re able to share in the flourishing. But that’s when things are really exciting, is when you get to do that. That’s where you should make money. You should make money because you’ve enabled a unique form of flourishing and you get to share in the benefits of that. You should not make money and you should not try to screw somebody over right out, do somebody in negotiation. And so I think that’s where that’s become a lot more difficult. And like I said, I’m still struggling with the day to day.

Luke Roush: So maybe just for some of our listeners who may not understand permanent equity, permanent capital or evergreen models, maybe to share a little bit about how that works and how it differs from what most people would be familiar with in a closed end time.

Brent Beshore: Yes, a traditional private equity. So we are a private equity in the sense that we are buying private securities, private equities, the equity side of the debt or equity. We’re on the equity side and we’re buying them from private companies, small private companies. And so how traditional private equity works, though, sort of beyond just the name itself, is you’re typically going to buy something you’re in levered up to a lot of debt on it. You’re going to try to optimize it within a short window of time, typically two to five years, and then you’re going to sell it to somebody else because their investors expect their money back. And in the process of that, you’re going to kind of do whatever it takes, right? I mean, like I said, it’s impossible, make good long term decisions with short term capital. If your time horizons two to five years, you’re going to make decisions that are going to benefit the company and going to show up in that time horizon. So what we do is in many ways the exact opposite of that. So we buy with no intention of selling the business. We are typically not using debt in our transactions. We are partnering with the leadership team that’s already there, certainly helping augment skill sets. We want to be helpful in how we do that. We are not coming in and clearcutting the leadership team, and then we’re really trying to encourage them to reinvest back in the business and treat people well and like I said, encourage flourishing. And so it just looks very, very different in practice. Right. I mean, how we’re able to structure our deals, how we’re able to operate the companies post close, it feels very different. And then, of course, we are not putting the company through another traumatic sort of sale scenario within a fairly short period of time. We’re able to do that because the capital raise. So the model that we created, which I think is unique, at least we haven’t or anybody else who’s done it this way, is we basically run funds that are very long dated so that our investors give us their capital for the better part of. Three decades and then there’s some options to renew if we want to continue forward, but it’s functionally indefinite capital writing three decades is a long time and so we’re able to come in and certainly generate a good return. That’s a focus of ours. In fact, we want to be world leading in the returns that we’re generating, but we’re generating in a very different way. So instead of levering up the company and hoping to get a big pop on the exit, we are trying to run these companies extremely well and create a flourishing within the companies that then we can share in on the way up, as opposed to trying to set out, negotiate and then sell it to somebody else who can work it out, negotiate them as well.

Henry Kaestner: So the better part of three decades feels like a long time. And maybe I say that just because I know that some of our investors have told us, you know, with our 12 year fund, that feels like a very long time. And and I think that it does. Do you offer liquidity along the way in the event that somebody is like, gosh, I love what you’re doing, but, you know, it’s been 10 years and you get some things they got to do.

Brent Beshore: Yeah. So there’s no guarantee liquidity along the way. What we’re used to doing is a lot of the businesses that we’re getting involved in have excess cash that’s coming out of them beyond what’s required or even what can be reasonably responsibly reinvested back into the companies. And so that cash flow stream that is aggregated and then goes out to the investors about once every six months to a year, depending on the situation. So there is a sort of a distribution stream that’s coming out of these companies. And of course, there’s always secondary liquidity. Somebody could sell their stake and we have a process for that internally. Thankfully, we really never had to. I mean, I think one time somebody, because they were funding a startup, had to balance some small position for them. Other than that, there’s a lot of trust. And I think that’s one of the things that’s beautiful is that, you know, our investors have given us a tremendous amount of leeway and trust and we don’t take that lightly. I mean, we know we have the best investors in the world with the best capital structure we think in the world, and that allows us to do things other people can’t do. It allows us to put trust into people that other people can’t put trust in and allows us to invest in industries that other people can invest in and situations that would be impossible. And so we consider that to be our core advantages, that we have better capital than everyone else. And then, of course, post close. We want to treat people kindly and generously, but also with a high expectation for excellence. So oftentimes those two things seem in conflict and we don’t think there’s any conflict between those two. God calls us to excellence. Do unto the Lord. Right. Whatever your hands find, do unto the Lord. Like we want people to pursue excellence and excellence both in their job and their career, but also excellence beyond what is the product look like? What is the service customer service look like now? Are we falling way, way short all the time? One hundred percent. We live in a fallen, broken thistles and thorns world. Totally get that. But we certainly want to aspire to be excellent. And so that’s where we drive our returns from.

Luke Roush: How does that approach just around time frame? How does that influence kind of where you hunt for the right kind of partnership opportunities, recognizing that not every company is conducive to generating Alpha over a thirty year run? How do you think about focus and concentration?

Brent Beshore: Yeah, that’s a great question. So one of the first filters we put it through is do we think this company is going to be around and the demand for this product is going to be around in twenty, thirty years? Spot on. Right. And if we don’t think it’s something that’s going to be around for a really long time, we won’t get involved in that. Like for us is nice because it weeds out a tremendous amount of fabs, a tremendous amount of we call them Hustle’s right. These are maybe the companies doing great media companies grown a lot, but we just don’t have a high degree of confidence that it’s going to continue on, at least in a shape or form that we can predict. And so it gets us into a lot of things that are what we call Main Street businesses. Right. So if you look at our current portfolio, right, we’re in construction. We think that the world will continue to build things. I think construction’s been going on for a while and probably will continue for a while. Right. And, you know, subsegments of that, like we’re partners in the nation’s largest swimming pool builder as an example. Right. One of our jokes that we say in our offices that people have been dipping their bodies in water for pleasure for, you know, millennia. And we think that will continue. And so we’re not concerned about the new app that’s going to make you feel like you’re swimming in a swimming pool. I think there’s just a tactile experience and a a shared familial experience. There’s a community experience, too. Swimming is a

Henry Kaestner: global warming play.

Brent Beshore: You know, we build in Arizona and it’s an oven already and getting hotter. And so we think that that’s probably pretty good for pool sales as well. But yeah, anyway, we try to be involved in things that we think are enduring and that are going to last for quite a while.

Henry Kaestner: Brant does not shy away from talking publicly on podcasts about different verticals that are interesting and beyond construction swimming pools. I remember hearing the story where you’re talking about how pet crematoriums were a very interesting high margin play. I think maybe since said that maybe that played out a little bit. But tell us more about some of the verticals that you’ve seen and are interested in.

Brent Beshore: I mean, I think one of my favorite parts of my job is to get to see all these unusual little missions that you never would have expected otherwise. Right? I mean, there’s behind every wine bottles exampled. There’s the things that you never think about, which is where does the sand come that forms the glass, right? How do you develop new molds for the punting at the end of the bottle? How do you develop the foil? Right. How do you do the ink that goes on the foil? What are all the different chemicals that are used and what are all the different methodologies and equipment that’s used to harvest? And how do you think about the storage of those things? I mean, we’ve literally looked at them using the wine business as an example of sort of interesting angles, like I would never buy a winery. Right. I shouldn’t say that. As soon as I say never got an interesting way of humbling me and I end up doing the things I say I never will, which I guess if I’m being honest, if I somehow stumble on a great wine investment, that’s probably a good thing. So I guess I’m happy to eat my work. But if you look at the wine business, I mean, owning a vineyard, there’s a lot of non-economic reasons why people own wineries. And so any time you have non-economic reasons for participation in an industry, you’re going to see a dramatic decrease in the return set. And so whenever we look at an industry, one of the first things we look at is we call it the sexiness factor of how sexy is the industry, how much interest is there other than economics to participate in the industry. And so this is where you get into really weird economics around things like wine and movies and restaurants even, and anything that’s sort of a consumer ish thing that people would pick up and look at. But beneath the surface of those industries, there’s all these little niches and interesting things that you can see. And so I just love seeing all the different business models. I mean, I would say, yeah, there’s certain areas like crematoriums. I joke that all you need is a storefront oven, which is kind of crude, but it’s true. And there’s a lot of emotional reasons why you don’t want to just put Fluffy in the backyard, that you want to have a proper burial and all of those things that come along with that, I would say that any more. What’s interesting to me is not trying to formulate my own interesting things that I want to go pursue. And I’m just fascinated by all the things that come to us that I just never even knew existed as using example in the wine business. I mean, we’ve looked at everything from machinery to new genetic techniques for grafting grapes to different vine and all these different things that you would never imagine that you look at. And that kind of goes for every single industry. And so I just love the variety and all the different ways that you can serve a customer. And I think that the best job in the world,

William Norvell: you’ve been thoughtful. You spent a lot of time coming up with this vehicle and everybody’s really interested in brands vehicle. He’s always super open handed. You’ve written extensively on your twenty seven year vehicle. You’ve written extensively on how it kind of works. The question I want to ask is we’ve got an audience of Faith Driven Investor do you fundamentally and I don’t know if I know the answer to this, do you fundamentally believe the 10 year, 12 year fund is broken? Do you think tonnes of Faith Driven Investor should be using the permanent equity model? Do you think it’s another tool in the tool chest and there’s a great number of tools, or do you see the market going? What encouragement would you have for other Faith Driven Investor to maybe starting a fund? How would you encourage them to think about what might be the right fit for them and what God might be calling them to?

Brent Beshore: That’s a great question. And look, I want to be clear. There’s been a lot of people who served a lot of companies and a lot of investors by using a traditional two and twenty ten year, 12 year, whatever the shorter term vehicle it would be. And I’m not going to sit here and say I know more than them. What I would say is that logically, when you think about first principles, the more optionality that you can have, the value of an option is in being able to make a decision down the road. And if you talk to any private equity investor has been doing it for very long and you ask him what’s the most painful company experience in their career, most of the time it’s not the one that went to zero. That’s actually not the thing that they’re most upset about. The one that they’re most upset about is the one that they just had a tiger by the tail. They knew that the thing was going to grow for decades. And they just I mean, the thing was a bonanza and they had to go and sell it. And they knew that the guy who they were going to sell it to or the woman they were going to sell to was going to experience an unbelievable ride up. And then they were going have to sell it to somebody else. Right. And so you get these really weird situations where it doesn’t make economic sense, it doesn’t make cultural sense to have to sell something, but you have to sell it. And I think the longer you can stretch that time horizon, it doesn’t mean you have to hold everything. I mean, this is something that’s very different than I think people would assume. Sometimes sellers will say it us. OK, so you’re pledging to never sell our business and we say absolutely not. That’s not at all what I’m saying. I think there are good reasons to sell and bad reasons to sell. Do you think there’s anything wrong with selling? And they’ll say, well, yeah, I mean, if you’re going to sell my business, then why wouldn’t I just sell it to traditional private equity? I said, you’re selling the business so there can’t be anything inherently wrong with selling. Right. It’s what are you selling for the right reasons or the wrong reasons? And I think a really, really bad reason to sell is the time clock stopped. Right. And you’re being forced to there are good reasons to sell, which is somebody would be a better owner of that asset than you are. Somebody would be able to encourage flourishing in that asset more than you can. They would be able to bring a skill set. They would bring as I’m going to slip into consultancy gear and going to use that word synergy. Right. They can bring synergy the table more than we can. So I would just say is from a fund structure standpoint, I encourage people to think about this as look optimally, it would be an indefinite sort of holdco structure. I think there are even problems with that. And Henry touched on it earlier with liquidity. And, you know, how do you make sure you get the right mix of investors? And, look, everything’s going to be complicated, but I think the longer you can stretch your time horizon, the better. Would it actually show up and returns? Would it actually show up in the value of the company? I think it depends on the company. It depends on the people. It depends on their mentality. But it never hurts to gain optionality. And I think that in this case, for where private equity is today, I think there’s a lot of people waking up, both CPAs and LPs. Right. I mean, there’s on both sides of the ledger saying I think it’s better to go longer as long as we have some checks in place and that we can be responsible for it. The other thing is just I mean, frankly, I’m thirty eight when we raise the first fund, I was thirty five. Thirty four. I mean, I’ve done it on my own with my own capital since my mid 20s. We first raised our capital as my early to mid 30s. If you’re going to have a long time horizon, you also got to have a long time horizon. That makes sense. So I mean, most people who get into private equity didn’t follow my path. Like, I joke that I’m the Forrest Gump of private equity for a reason. I kind of fell backwards into it. And so most people are spinning out in their forties and you’re just probably not going to have a 30 year time horizon in your 40s as a GP. And so I think there’s some very good reasons potentially in that situation to not have a longer time horizon.

William Norvell: Superville, that’s great. Says I think about moving towards our clothes. And Luke and Henry, jump in here. Just kind of you know, if you had one or two pieces of advice or investors on the other side of this podcast, they’re out there. They may be looking for venture capital companies. They may be looking for long term hold companies. They may be looking at the public markets. What do you think Jesus has taught you about how you look at investing? What would be one or two pieces of advice or thoughts that you would say, you know, this is something I’ve just been really thinking over as an investor that I think Jesus has shown me.

Brent Beshore: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the lessons that I repeatedly learned that I think is just cause God wants us on our knees, God wants our whole heart, God wants our whole self. And I don’t think that you should take investing and put it off to the side. And O’Henry is really passionate about this, too. And I applaud a lot of the things that he said and talked about. This is going to bring your whole self in your whole life and put it in God’s hands. And so when it comes to investing, you know, I would say having the humility to say, God, I don’t know, lead me and guide me, you give me wisdom. Don’t sort of move investing off to the side and have it be something where your analytical over here and your hard nosed and met people who it’s almost like they’re Christians on Sundays and maybe Christians on Mondays and Tuesdays. But when they talk to GPS on Wednesdays and Thursdays, they’re definitely not believers. Right. And I think that that compartmentalization is really detrimental to both their life and their returns probably over time as well, as well as it’s really detrimental to the people who are trying to invest. And so practically, what does that look like? It means that try to be kind and gentle and understanding and trying to figure out what is the thing that that investor, if you’re going to put your capital with an investor, what are they really trying to achieve and why are they trying to achieve it? And what makes you confident that the thing that that has created success in the past is going to be sustained? I think there’s a lot of people rushing into different areas. And I mean, certainly right now there’s a huge rush of people into what I call lower middle market private equity and pursuing all kinds different structures, which is wonderful. Right. And there’s a tremendous amount of need. And I’m not discouraging that in any way. But I would say is I’ve seen people who with no track record and with very little expertize in the space, raise money from people just because they say, hey, there’s this idea that I have. And the reality of it is, William, as you know, I mean, I’m preaching to the choir here. It’s brutally difficult. One of the things I want to make sure people get from my comments is, you know, I’m not being flippant when I say that I’ve gotten on my knees every single time after we close the transaction and prayed to God would rescue me. That’s literally true every single time we’ve ever made an investment. I’ve had a moment after close where I thought I shouldn’t have done this. This was a mistake. And look, God has rescued us. And I think that the area, the market people can look at and see, OK, you’re paying half of the multiples that you’re paying in the public markets. That’s really attractive. Look at the yields you can get. The reason why it’s cheap is because it’s really, really, really hard and it’s really fraught with risk. And these companies can go to zero very quickly. And so I would just say is, if you’re an investor thinking about entering into small business, private investing, take it slow work with somebody who’s done it for a while, learn the ropes. A lot more things sound good than are actually true. And I say that comes back down to humility. And God wants us humble and dependent and follow that from the Bible.

Henry Kaestner: It is it is all in the Bible

William Norvell: brand, I think said it so well. Like, one of the best ways that God lives with us is to pour his word into us and let us pour over his word with him. And so we do, as you know, love to ask, just like is there a verse is there a story that is helping bring some of those things you just articulated to life during this season? Right. I mean, God’s word just moves with us through the seasons of life and just wondering if there is something God’s been using in your life to help bring some of these thoughts to mind.

Brent Beshore: Yeah, first of all, it’s a great question. I’ll tell you, there’s no one verse or no one story. And I think you can see this repeated in the Bible. And this has taken me a long time and only recently has been a somewhat of a revelation to me is that I, for most of my life, have focused on the content of what I say and not how I say it. I focused on being correct in my logic and being thoughtful in how I would write something out. Right. Like that’s how I think is how I would write. And oftentimes what it does is it causes me relational issues because I don’t say things with a loving heart and with a goal of helping somebody understand. And this is just my own pride in my junk’s sort of coming through. But when I think about Jesus at the well, with woman at the well. Right. I mean, it’s the most beautiful story of love and acceptance while also not shying away from truth. There’s a lot of ways you can say truth without hurting the other person in the process. And I think that recently, you know, when I think about the story of the prodigal son. Right. And like just how the father was so loving and accepting of him coming back and loving and kind towards the older brother who I identify with a lot as well. Right. And I identify, unfortunately, both brothers in different ways. And I think that the whole point is the content of our conversations, the content of our interactions with others. It might only be 20 percent of really what people hear. And I think so often it’s the other big chunk is how you say it with the right tone, with the right kindness and love wrapped around it. So not to. Shy away from truth, I think you can get squishy and, you know, if you don’t have any truth in it, just all grace. And I think that that’s not loving actually either as well. But I just need to focus way more on that. And that’s something that recently I’ve tried to focus on more and stumbling my way through it. But I think just really trying to be thoughtful of who is the other person, what do they need and what is a way in which I can communicate with them in a way that shows them I care and that I’m for them. And even when I’m saying things that maybe are opposed to what they would hope, I would say

William Norvell: I mean, I’m in

Henry Kaestner: front. I’m grateful for you. I’m grateful for you taking the time for you, sharing what you’re doing. I think a bunch of different approaches, I think are really, really important. And I think that it’s particularly helpful for me. My big one takeaway, I mean, there are lots of different things about the model I think are important. Lots of different approaches to working with entrepreneurs and investments. And how we think about that that are unique and interesting would even get into the fact that you’ve got this really unique advantage of being in the center of the country and being able to take a look at some of these businesses that might otherwise be overlooked. And you had a really, really, really interesting. But the one thing that I’m going to take away from this is what we talked about before, which is that as an investor endeavors to know God and enjoy him forever, we have to be conscious of our propensity towards having both knowledge and academic knowledge at the expense of a close, intimate relationship with the founder and the owner of the universe. And that remains probably my greatest challenge. And you helped put some words to that, that I think that resonate with me and I hopefully a lot of our listeners. So thank you for that. Thank you for your time.

Brent Beshore: Yeah. I really appreciate you having me on. Thank you so much. And it’s a pleasure. Keep up the great work.

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In 1998, Mart Green took a transformational trip to Guatemala that changed the way he thought about return on investment. Since then, he has been involved in Bible translation and distribution efforts from the launch of the YouVersion Bible app to the establishment of a collaborative partnership among 10 of the world’s largest Bible translation organizations, called illumiNations. 

In today’s conversation, Mart shares where his passion for Bible translation started, the encouraging steps he’s seen in the effort to eliminate Bible poverty, and the power of what happens when competitors become collaborators.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Mart Green: So in that one moment in time, I went from why to how why do we translate the Bibles for small people groups to how are we going to make sure that everybody on planet Earth has God’s word in their heart language?

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m here with William William. Good afternoon.

William Norvell: It is good to be here, as always. Good to see you.

Henry Kaestner: It’s great to have you discontinuing this segment, this series, I should say, of course, on other ways to think about doing Faith Driven Investor. And I’ve been thinking about Mark Green, who’s our guest. Welcome to the program, by the way.

Mart Green: Thank you, Henry. Look forward to having this time with you.

Henry Kaestner: When I think about alternate ways to think about Faith Driven Investor and different ways to think about guys economy and how to measure the success of our investments, I keep on coming back to one story that I’ve heard, Martelle, time and time again. That’s really made an impact on me and it’s made an impact on me because I really think that my thought about what a return on investment look like was probably pretty much in sync with Marte’s way up until this time he had this trip to Guatemala, which we’re going to hear about. And so I’m eager for Mark to tell a story and we’re going to get into that and we’re going to be unpacking together. What does it look like to think about investment return in light of what God tells us through his scripture and tells us through his spirit in a way that I hope will stretch us all? And I hope that in the course of doing that will bring us closer to knowing God and then just helps us to understand how to steward the resources he’s entrusted us with under his power for his glory. So hopefully that’s what success looks like. At the end of this podcast. You’ll have that much more of a closer sense as to what that what that means for you and the assets you’ve been entrusted with. So, Mark, thank you for being on the show. Let’s start off, as we do with all of our guests. Tell us a bit about your personal background. Many people will probably know of your family, but pretend like we don’t.

Mart Green: Yeah, I was born in Oklahoma. My family gravitated to Oklahoma City because of a retail company called TGen Y where my dad worked. And so when I was nine, my dad decided that he want to get work life balance. And so he borrowed six hundred dollars and started what became Hobby Lobby in our home. So we glued frames. I was nine, my brother was a seven, and then I have a sister, she was three. So she got out of the child labor and just saw the business grow in her home. And my mom ran the business for the first five years without pay. My dad finally quit his job, selling half to see if he could make a go of it. Then I went to school. I was at college. I decided I heard my dad talk about Christian bookstores, will actually quit in nineteen eighty one, came home and started a company called Mortdale. We have thirty seven Christian bookstores and then ninth grade. I found a young lady that I liked and I chased her for six years and finally she agreed to marry me and we’ve had four children and our twenty second grandchild is due today. So if I run off this podcast you’ll know that I got the call and I’m sorry, but the family comes first. But anyway, somehow the two have become twenty two. And so God’s blessings, that incredible family.

Henry Kaestner: Wow, that is awesome. You’re a very rich man and the most meaningful sense

William Norvell: in a beautiful way to end the podcast. I don’t think we’ve ever had that happen. That would just be hey, what is beautiful.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I would be super cool. OK, so get back to it because you gloss over that a little bit and you’re an entrepreneur. We have this sister series that we do called the Faith Driven Entrepreneur where we’ve done, I don’t know, maybe one hundred and eighty hundred and ninety segments. We’re not going to tell so much of the Mardell story today, but I want to look at it just a little bit. You grew up in an entrepreneurial home. You were glowing picture frames when you’re nine years old, and then you went and started your internal venture. What did it look like growing up in that house that made you want to be an entrepreneur? And were there ever a time, though, when you saw what was going on in the business? You said, no, I don’t want to do that. How did it all just growing up in an entrepreneurial home impact in shape, how you ended up seizing and lean into your own entrepreneurial career?

Mart Green: Yeah, what I saw probably were a couple of things. One was hard work because it was a lot of hard work. We started a business in your home, your mom not getting paid, all those kind of things. And then I also knew that it was a way to provide for family was also a way to give. You know, my family has always wanted to give and be generous. And so by being entrepreneurial, the more you can do, the more you can give. And so we kind of see it now as a prosperity gospel or the poverty gospel, but the plentiful gospel. So I use a symbol of a funnel. I have a coin in my pocket, has our family a love that intimately has a heart that was easy, live, extravagant generosity. I wanted to put a curtain being torn because I think that’s the most generous thing that ever happened visually. When Jesus died on the cross, the tartan was torn. This is hard to do that. So I chose a funnel. So on my coin in my pocket, I carry is a funnel in the back. And so that’s what I saw just kind of lived, you know, the more you get, just give. So when I was at college, I was nineteen years old. My dad, he want to do a barbecue stand. He want to do all these different things. And I wasn’t interested. But he said, Christian bookstore. I thought, oh no, that’s kind of cool because the entrepreneurial what you’re doing, you know, there’s not a lot of people go to Hobby Lobby, buy so flower and their life is transformed for eternity. Now they have incredible experience. It makes their home better and all that stuff. But a Christian bookstore, I’m thinking, oh, because usually you give to ministries and you make money, you’re entrepreneurial. Well, that’s kind of the deal. The Christian bookstore you kind of get to take. Both of those, and so, again, 19 not smart enough to ask all the big questions, you know, that I should have I probably would have never done it. So I quit school and my dad would pay for school kind of work. His measure goes, well, if I come over and I bust, I’ll make enough money to go back to school again. So that was my plan.

Henry Kaestner: So tell us also a little bit about family business, because Mardell is co-located with Hobby Lobby. You’re all together. What’s it like working in a multigenerational family business altogether?

Mart Green: Yeah, for me, it’s a huge benefit, as you can imagine, because my dad already had banking things, relationships. They had lawyers worked up. And all this is good news. I’d have to worry about a lot of heavy things. Now, obviously, Christian bookstore and at that time is off supply. Now, we’ve kind of evolved into education supplies. That was all different. So that’s what I had to do. Lots of learning. But the advantage of having a family business here together is my dad had already cut down lots of trees and lots of weeds that were in my way. And so I had huge advantage in that way. What I had to go do is say, hey, can I be a merchant in different categories? Then obviously Hobby Lobby has lots of different categories and they’re world class, what they do. And so it was just fun to go and do it there at the same time, have those advantages. But, you know, my dad kind of let me do it. You know, he didn’t come in. He only had seven hobby lobbies, I think, in nineteen eighty one when I opened. So he’s still trying to get his. And so the nice thing was my dad could have saved me from a lot of mistakes. He probably watched me walk right in that wall and get a bloody nose. When he stopped me I probably have done it again. Right. But since he didn’t stop me, I didn’t do it again. Right. And so I had a father that would empower me and not help me lots. You see what I’m saying? But in the decisions I had to make, he never Trumpton never got into the business of why did you do that? Why did you do that? So anyway, it was an incredible, incredible I guess I just assumed everybody had the same upbringing. I guess we all do. Right. I guess I assume everybody’s trying to figure something out on their house or working at home and working. Mother, nine years old. I didn’t find out later that I was I wasn’t under the child labor laws.

Henry Kaestner: So did your kids. The next generation, the tilers and and that generation start off the same way,

Mart Green: not at nine. We let them go to school and get a little bit older and stuff like that. But some of that same philosophy that, you know, your first car you have to pay for part of that college. We matched their funds, you know, so we got a little bit better than my parents. They were zero, you know, and stuff, because, again, they didn’t have the funds to help me at that time. So that’s what we try to figure that out. You know, that’s not a science. That’s an art stuff. How do you help your kids? You don’t want them to feel entitled. That’s always been a concern that we’ve had as a family. How do you do that? How do you be generous if your family seems to love got intimately and little extravagant generosity? What’s extravagant generosity to look like within a family member that’s also healthy? Right. I give my kids lots of money. That wouldn’t be extravagant generosity, really. I’d actually be killing their work, desire and all that. So it’s a it’s something you have to work through.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so that’s give me another Panksepp. So we’re going to come back to it because I’ve gotten to know Tyler and Derrick well over the course the last couple of years. And I know that you’re actually very, very intentional with the way you do that. I think that there’s a lot there to unpack. We won’t go there on this episode. But I actually want to go backwards. Just a second. You pulled a coin out of your pocket and you just said what it was. Just briefly, because I want to talk about that coin and then I want to talk about another thing that you always do as a matter of habit that’s really made an impression on me. But tell us again about the coin and then I’ll tell people about what the other habit that you have that’s made an impression on me.

Mart Green: Yeah. About twelve years ago, our family decided, you know what, we have a vision statement, a mission statement, a core values for the business. But we don’t have it for our family. And our family is more important than our business. So why don’t we do that? So at that point, Gen three object to my parents be Gen one, we’re younger. So Gen one, my parents, my brother and sister and their spouses, those eight of us sit down in a hotel room with a facilitator just to kind of put down who are we, what’s the Greens all about? So we have our core values, but we got an interest in a real simple one. So the real simple, little memorable and so is love got intimately the extravagant generosity. So I like symbols. I like things that I can look at and say, oh, that’s what that means. So as I showed earlier, that love got intimately extravagant, generous. So every morning when I get up here, I gave one to all the family members. Now I’m not ten. They kept theirs. They may have lost it. I have extras. They can have one because I’m a simple guy. But once a year we have a big family. Celebration is so at that meeting of a new family member. Then they’ll get a copy of this as well as that. We have a custom Bible for our family that when a new family member marries, then they get that Bible and we all bring us back to the meeting and they sign our Bible. We send their Bible just as a commitment to each other. Now, I can’t force my kids to love. Got into me a little extra generosity. All I’m saying is that’s where the river’s going. So if you want to go up river, you can jump out of the river. You can. But we’re kind of going this way, what we feel God’s given us. And so it’s been fun and our kids have embraced that. And just some of those little things you do as a family,

Henry Kaestner: it’s not one of those little things is a very big thing that you do as a family. Okay, here’s the other thing that you’ve done that’s really made an impression on me. You have the same way of signing off on your email every time. What is that? What quote do you put down and what does that mean to you? Because that’s a bridge. To an area, the conversation that Williams can take us through

Mart Green: now, back in the day, we were trying to do a full page ad for the newspaper about God’s word, very important to us. So I hired a firm that came back with a little tagline. I didn’t like it. So I sent him back to the drawing board and they came back with four words. I said, that’s it. That’s it. That’s it. So the last twenty three years I’ve had all my emails with these four words. This book is alive. And then I have a script that I put under that and hope most people understand because it’s the only book that’s alive. I mean, I’m watching it. There’s 6000 languages on planet Earth and every time it gets translated a new language, it speaks to the people. There is no book that does that. And so this book is alive is kind of what I love, being sure that I put on other people as much as I can.

William Norvell: So many beautiful things, so many beautiful things. I love symbols. I wrote down Quoin with family motto. I’m going in, I’m going have to get your tips. That just speaks to me.

Mart Green: I love

William Norvell: that. But one of the things we do want to dove into is Henry said, is your personal journey with God’s word and why you think it’s alive and why you think it’s so alive that you want to tell everybody about it. Every time you send an email, which I imagine is quite often, from what I understand, Guatamala is a big place for this started for you back in the late 90s. Could you tell us a little bit about that story?

Mart Green: Yeah, it’s a moment in time story, William, so thanks for asking. Nineteen ninety eight, because we had Christian bookstores and we sold Bibles, we thought and I didn’t know there were 6000 languages that people don’t have God’s word in our language. And so when I learned that, I said, oh, maybe we could be apart. So maybe Mardell could sell Bibles that helped pay for Bible translators. Well, the Bible translation process is kind of long, so that didn’t work so fine. I said, well, how do you pay for the printing, the Bibles? Because typically a new people groups, they will sell the Bibles to subsidized price. So maybe they charge them a quarter or fifty cents, but they may not be able to four or five dollars. So we started paying for first edition Bibles. So they said, well, ma, you paying these first edition Bibles, you got to come to a dedication. We dedicate the Bibles and you know how it is. You’re busy, you get your business, you’re trying to get it. You got four kids. And finally, the date worked February of nineteen ninety eight. So February 5th, I get on an airplane and I’m headed down there. And so now I’m getting some information about the translation. I don’t know much about this thing. You know, always the Asian heart attack people and there’s only thirty thousand of that. Speak this language like I’m new to this. I’m saying if you got a language, you got lots of people. My football stadium here, Norman holds one hundred thousand people. You know, all these people are going to fill up and get a little bit like an empty stadium, you know. Oh, and then only eight thousand of those people can read. A thousand of them are believers. Only four hundred believers can read. And I’m like, this is not a good hour. Oh, I you know, that’s the language I speak. I’ve got to go back to a family who all business minded. They’ll go on no good stories and I’ll come back. Oh, I went all the way down to Guatemala and four hundred people can read this Bible that this couple spent forty years translating because of warfare down there and all that stuff. They were nineteen fifty eight before I’m born to nineteen ninety eight forty years translating the Bible for people. Well for me it’s real simple. I’m not doing this again now. The forty years that the people I have no idea how to console them because they spent forty years of life. There were seventy years old when I got down. There will be one hundred ten when they get the next one done you know. So anyway so we got the ceremony and it’s ten hours out so I’m two days on the oral question. This is not working. Why do we do this then. I just ah forget it. It’s over. I’m not doing anymore. And then got the ceremony and they actually have, there was an American couple down there and for each and all the tech they give me a Bible for free. The translators get a free Bible and gas for one of the local isn’t huddle walk up to get his Bible. It’s something I’ve never seen before. In a Mortdale, we carry over a thousand different Bibles. We you take every language, every color, all that. There’s a thousand different choices. And I’ve helped people find the one, but I’ve never had them do a guest for doing Gaspar got God’s word. It’s hard language. Hinduja the first time he wept. Then he wiped his tears away and he wept. And I was stunned by that moment, watching a guy weep over a Bible. And so at that moment, the gods never spoke to me audibly. But the Holy Spirit has prompted me at different times in my life. That moment is a prompting was a simple question. Maat, why don’t you go tell Gaspar he’s not a good ahli? And that was like a spear going right to my heart sink, right, because I have been arguing that exact point for two days and I’m really not comfortable going up and telling the guy who’s weeping over his Bible he’s not a good return on investment. So in that one moment in time, I went from why to hell why do we translate the Bibles for small people groups to how are we going to make sure that everybody on planet Earth has God’s word in their heart language?

William Norvell: Let’s get it. And I’ve heard you talk before about, you know, you went from Oraibi to EROI. Could you tell us about what that metric means to you and how you put that into practice today?

Mart Green: Yeah, so I had a process. That’s what I’ve been arguing ahli the whole way down here. You know, that’s my heart language, right? That’s my language are a lie. And so I thought, well, what happened here? Then I realized, you know, I’m in charge of potent seed. I want to plant a seed that’s potent. So what? I plant potency. God’s in charge of the fruit. Now, right, I can take a scene put in right place and all that stuff, but now I understand God’s word is very potent. I have no idea what God is going to do among that group of four hundred or the thirty thousand. I mean, obviously, more people learn to read all that kind of stuff. So what I’m more concerned about now is in my planning potency and I just happen to believe that God’s word there’s only two things that last forever souls of men and women in God’s word. And so this is something I’m going to get to talk about for a long, long time. In heaven, we have all these 6000 names on our guys are going to figure all that out. He’ll figure all that out. But it’ll be fun to talk about your Bible and my Bible and all that stuff. And maybe we will instantly be able to speak six thousand languages. I don’t know. I mean, heaven is going to blow our brains out. Right. And so I can’t wait to get there because every tribe, every nation, every language is in heaven. That’s what it tells us. I love a picture that a guy does. He’s got the Last Supper, Elstein, the last supper. He took up an indigenous people around the table and I like call him at the next supper. The next time we go, they’re all going to be different indigenous people and all that stuff. So it’s beautiful. Heaven is an exciting thing and I think God’s word lasts forever. So that’s my EROI is to invest in things that last past, my lifetime.

William Norvell: That’s great. And so obviously a big point in time. Guatamala gasp Are these moments when you came back, you’re on the plane home. What do you think it did you immediately jump into how to solve this problem? What eventually led you into going really deep into the Bible translation world?

Mart Green: Before I took it home, I had one more experience and that was two o’clock in the morning. So, yeah, but it leads to that. So at two o’clock in the morning, I’m going to One Dollar Hotel and I lost the Arawa again. I didn’t get a return on investment on that Rodwin Dollar Hotel. And so I didn’t mind the hotel.

Henry Kaestner: The service at the hotel supplied you was not as good as one dollar that you paid.

Mart Green: No, it was a barn and the bed wasn’t made. And there’s no running water, just the bucket downstairs tin roof. So at two o’clock in the morning that actually there were cats, Latin reporters, jaguars, the four drunks singing out here. So that was a no sleep night. So at two o’clock in the morning, I’m not sleeping. And the most of the day I just watched as many people revival got pierced my heart. So I get out of book. Arthur being in God’s word and knowing it for yourself as a key being as well known as the key. Well, now the Lord gave me another prompting and it’s what kind of ahli is Mark Green? Fifth generation Christian, my mom’s side through my dad’s side, I own Christian bookstores, I paid for the printing that Bible, that man was over. I have 50 Bibles to my name and I read the Bible every great once in a while, maybe on Sundays when pastor opens it up and says to go somewhere. So all of a sudden I realized the oral question in Guatemala was not Gaspar, it was Mark Green. So I made a vow. February 8th, 1998, two o’clock in the morning, I get up first thing and read God’s word for the rest of my life. And so I get to gasp are weeping for me to appreciate what I took for granted. I’ve had in my English language for hundreds of years and hundreds of translations, but it took him for me to understand what I had taken for granted. So that started my journey of doing translation. But it really it took a few more years before I understood how to do that collaboratively. I went back and said, Hey guys, we got to sell more Bibles. Somebody else we can pay for more printing of Bibles. And so that was my first deal, is let’s just continue to pay for more printing of Bibles that get them done.

Henry Kaestner: So let’s talk about collaboration. Illuminations is a big project. You’re bringing together a whole bunch of different folks that might not ordinarily play well in the sandbox together. We’ve looked at this a little bit before in prior podcast with Peter Grear Rooting for Rivals. It’s just we live in a sinful fallen world and everybody’s got their own way. We know how many denominations there are. We know that we’re living in this post Tower of Babel reality. I’ve got that painting right behind me that’s kind of given birth to what you’re doing. Illuminations, right. But you’re bringing people together and you’re working on collaboration across a whole bunch of different sectors, different organizations that have different histories, and yet they’re all coming together. How are you making it happen?

Mart Green: Well, I’m not making it happen, but I’m trying to facilitate it happen. Of course, I think the Lord did it. So, yeah, back in ninety eight, right after my Gaspare experience, I was in Chicago and I just felt like someday there’ll be a project, so be the nominee to protect themselves. They would come together. No doubt I could do it. They would come together and both would come together. So that’s set my heart for 12 years. And then I went back to Guatemala because I talk about Guatemala all the time. So Todd Peterson, a good friend of yours, and see me say, hey, Mark, we’re going down to Guatemala City, I’m sure, Guatemala story in Guatemala. So I went down there when I was down there. So I’m not going back to Guatemala for about another ten or twelve years. And every time I go down there, my world gets rocked. You know, I said, oh, almost. If I get all these people to come together. And another unique thing was happening, and that’s called you Verson. So your version is a ministry based here out of Oklahoma City that has the Bible app that many people will be familiar with. Incredible entrepreneurial story. You won’t be surprised if you’ve already had him or we won’t have him on. We have, of course. Yeah. And so but he was doing these text digitized at the same time print on demand was saying, hey, green family, will you digitize these texts. Well that’s fifteen hundred dollars times two thousand languages for two different people. So I’m like no, no, no, I’m not digitizing these texts for everybody down river. I’m going back up river to who owns the intellectual property rights because bibles are intellectual property, you have to get the rights to do that. So we started by building a digital Bible library, so it kind of gave us a mutual reinforcing activity is what’s called the Collective Impact World, something we can all do together? Let’s centralize, digitize and standardize all these Bible text of the world. But my real goal was to finalize. We built this beautiful library that’s got two thousand books in it and there’s four thousand missing. So that was kind of a way to bring everybody together. And because it was called by the resource, we had four other resource partners like myself, a resource partner. You have ten Bible translation agencies that do most the translation in the world. You have five resource partners all meeting once a month, just strategizing. And so because it’s kind of cool by the resource partner now, we can be obnoxious as a resource partner and you can be a step too far. So it’s a it’s a dance. It’s a relationship of trust. You have to trust me very deeply that I’m working with you and I have to trust that you’re going to share. So I’ll build your tool as long as you’ll share with these other nine ministries, which actually represent there’s one hundred and fifty Bible societies that all have their own boards. So technically we’re coordinating probably one hundred fifty two hundred organizations all together. Now there’s a United Bible society, but they’re not over the Bible society. So they can say, hey, guys, please do this. But one hundred fifty boards could vote different way. So that took a trust, takes a long time. You get trust by the drop and you lose it by the buckets. And so we’re just trying to continue to build trust. So that’s what a collective impact really, really at the bottom line is about trust. But you know what? We all want to eradicate battle poverty. And nobody can say that by themselves. No donor can say I’m going to eradicate Bible poverty. No ministry party can say I can read. So that’s what keeps us whenever we get kind of shuffled down here and fighting with each other, all that stuff, we can keep looking up, guys. We’re going to eradicate poverty. There are people dying without scripture. We have the oxygen there underwater. We got to get them the oxygen. They’re going to die under there.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m fascinated by a collective impact. I’m actually not going to take us there because I’m a guy who saw t shirts at the University of Delaware. But William did go to Stanford Business School, which is where I think collective impact came out of. When you’re there, did you study collective impact and if so? Walk us through with Martje as he understands just the general principles of collective impact, because I think that they apply to limitations. And I think if this is an intro and an invitation for others to participate in illuminations, I hope they will. As people are motivated by the eradication of biblical poverty, I hope that they’ll find more about illuminations. But another thing that might happen from this is just the value of collective impact. Is that something, William, you’re familiar with? Did you ever study that there?

William Norvell: They didn’t let the Alabama guy into that class. Now, they were like, too heady, too much. You know, we’ve got sails for you, but so didn’t study it. I believe you that it started there. But I guess and Mark can illuminate us a little bit.

Mart Green: Yeah, it’s kind of wild because we started 2010 and in 2011, this Stanford comes out with this new concept called collective impact. And it was just so great because it gave language to what I was doing. Then as you’re doing something, you can explain it to people, but they did it. So there’s really what they call five steps ones, a common agenda. We just talked about that to eradicate child poverty. We all agree that’s a common agenda. Then you have a shared measurement system. How are we going to measure what we’re doing? Well, fortunately, in Bible translation, you can get it down to chapters in the Bible. So we have a goal that ninety five percent this world will have the full Bible, ninety nine point nine six will have at least the New Testament. And that last point zero four, which will be about three million people out of eight billion that we may have in twenty thirty three, we’ll all have scripture by twenty, thirty three. So that’s a shared measurement system. And then you’ve got mutually reinforcing activities. We talked about that, the digital Bible and let’s do some stuff together. Let’s go do something. So that’s one thing. We do lots of other things together now. Continuous communication. You’ve got to be talking. We meet every month. Typically, Dallas has the largest admiral’s club in the country, C twenty one in the Dallas airport. We all fly in for four hours. We fly back out. And so that’s the way we see each other. Now, obviously, the last year we’ve been doing that by Zoome because we can’t meet in person, but we’re about ready to get that going again. So we’ve met one hundred and three times, I think over the last ten years and then about three times. Wow. Yeah, trust takes

Henry Kaestner: time, you know, at C twenty one if you’ve been there a hundred and three times, you know the

Mart Green: gate. I know. I know so. And there’s a backbone about memorization and almost like the chief operating officer of it because all the CEOs come right, all the donors come, large donors all have businesses or things we got to go back to. So it’s not like we get full time to this. So we stir up all this trouble. I resisted it for the longest time. Then I realized no. So we have a staff of probably four or five that we helped fund that. Just follow up with all the details. Museum of the Bible, you said? Yeah, my brother on here, the Museum of the Bible want to make a room and put all 6000 languages in it. So they want to collect all two thousand Bibles. You know how hard it is to get one each of two thousand Bibles. It’s so hard that you would not do it unless you call one person called the backbone of Illuminations. And we did all that work with one hundred ninety organizations getting them to send to and from Germany, from Afghanistan, the whole world. These Bibles are not all sitting somewhere. And so now those are there. But they are now. Yeah, but we didn’t know that we started, but that’s the power of coming together. So those are the five points. The one that’s missing. Stanford missed one, the most important one, and that’s prayer. And so we have made this thing with a prayer from the very beginning. We actually have a translation prayer. It’s a six line prayer. And if we have time, maybe we’ll get to say at the end of it or something like that. But it’s just a six line prayer that I just hope maybe someday there’s so many people praying everywhere I go. I handed out my little card, a little magnet, two versions of it, because I’m a simple guy, right? So I want to leave somebody with something. I got to say to the Angels guys that prayer, I’m getting tired of hearing that we just go get that one solved, go answer that prayer. And so now, of course, people can pray what they want, but we’re also collectively having a prayer. And we just had an illuminations gathering. Three hundred people there. And every morning over one hundred people came early morning because we don’t let them out till 10:00 at night. They came up early morning to pray because we made a high priority is guys, we are operating the prayers of the people. And so that’s how you get people together, is to pray together

William Norvell: as a major. They I love symbols, too, and I’ve actually become fascinated over the last four or five years with collective prayer, praying the same thing. Right. I used to go against and of course, the Lord’s Prayer. I’ve never gone against that one, but I say, no, let’s not read prayers like God wants to hear our original thought, you know, but I love the power of it. Would you mind sharing that sixth line prayer with our audience? I would love if you would just pray that overall our audience over this moment.

Mart Green: Absolutely. God, your word is more precious than all that I possess. Your scripture gives light to my path and directs my steps. Through your will alone, lives are transformed, the mind’s made new, so I now pray for all people that do not yet know you, for you’ve promised that your voice by every tribe and nation will be heard. So equip us by your breath to provide every heart language with your word. Amen Amen.

Henry Kaestner: That’s awesome. And William, I love that you ask that question. William has authored the Sovereign’s Capital prayer and then also the faith driven movement prayer. And there is something really beautiful when everybody present together some. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Mart Green: Yeah. Thank you for allowing me to share.

William Norvell: And the last question I’d love to ask Martis, you’ve worked on this collective impact. You know, we’ve got a lot of entrepreneurs and investors that have, you know, shared high level goals. Right. They really do. But they also have their own business to run. How have you seen entrepreneurs work? Well, with that also, are there roadblocks that they should be looking out for? I mean, you do have to watch out for your own organization at some point. How does that tension play itself out and in this organization? And I would imagine others.

Mart Green: Yeah, the good news is, like we just came from this Illuminations event. We had one hundred and forty four giving units. So that’s lots of families. Now, some of those families, all they do is they come visit once a year and that’s it. We have thirty what we call co-host couples that give a little bit more their time and then there’s the five who give up their time. So some of those are in situations like Tai Peterson, former NFL football player. So he has a situation. They can give him more of his time. He still has to get some income and do some stuff like that. I also have in the way that I’ve been able to free up my time to do this. Now, not everybody can get the same amount of time. So I’m generous with my time and my talent and my treasure. Some might give us their talent and their treasure. Some might give us time and treasure. So you just try to get people, you find out what they’re getting are how can you help us? How can you do different things? And so but the five all have unique situations that they had enough time that they could give us that, because if they can’t, they won’t. There’s other people that love to be a part of our meetings every month, but they can’t because their time. So but when you get to a big enough audience, then you can have enough people that can come together to solve the issues that we have to come together with.

William Norvell: Well, as we do come to a close, this may be a little bit of pressure from someone who spent a good portion of their life translating different Bibles. So, you know, I know you hold the Bible dear and the Bible is alive as your as your sign off. But what we love to ask at the end of ours is we also hold God’s word very dear. And we love to see how God’s word can transcend your lives. Our guest lives with our listeners lives. And so we would love to invite our guest to do at the end to share something that God’s telling them through his word could be something this morning, could be something the season, could be something he’s told you his whole life that you think our audience should hear. But we’d love to invite you to do that here with our audience today.

Mart Green: Man, I wish we could take whole forty minutes on that question. I got lots of good answers there, but I’m all Jeremiah nine and twenty three in the message version. And it says, don’t let the wise regular wisdom. Don’t let the heroes brag of their exploits. Don’t let the rich brag of the riches. If you brag, brag of this and this only that you understand and know me. And so I’m really not a Bible guy on an intimacy with God guy. I just feel like the number one way to get into the God is through his word. And so that’s what I’m about. Intimacy with God.

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Today’s guest is David Beatty, co-founder and managing partner of Veriti Management. On today’s episode, he is going to share the value of Direct Index for helping Faith Driven Investors screen for deals that reflect the investors’ Christian values. 

You’ve heard of positive screens and negative screens, but Dave joined us to explore how Faith Driven Investors can invest at a high degree of excellence using both positive and negative screens, as well as using direct indexing to customize their filters. 

If you’re interested in public equities, or already involved, today’s episode is for you…

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Dave Beatty: It’s just common, you know, have you ever disagreed with someone about what’s allowable behavior and, you know, the chapter really encourages us to come at it with love, and I’m both convicted by that. And also doesn’t say, though it doesn’t deny Paul is really one who ate meat and thought it was fine. So he wasn’t saying both positions were right. He was talking about how we love one another. So I’ve just been thinking about how that applies and the work we’re trying to do together and Faith Driven Investor and.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m here with Luke, my partner, Sovereign’s Capital

Dave Beatty: Luke, welcome.

Luke Roush: Wonderful to be here.

Henry Kaestner: It’s great to have you back. And we’ve got Dave Bayti in the house all the way from Boston, Massachusetts. Dave, thanks for being with us.

Dave Beatty: Thank you for having me, Henry.

Henry Kaestner: So today’s a big deal. We’re going to get into an asset class and investment strategy that is doubly new. Number one, we rarely talk about public equity investing and then as a subset that we’ve never talked about, direct index investing. And so we’re going to do both of those. And the reason why I think that this is super important is that while we all do get excited about private equity investments because of the ability to work with the company owner and being able to really talk about chaplaincy and faith driven employee resource groups and just the individual discipleship of the entrepreneur that we’re working with, most private equity investments are not accessible to 90 percent plus people that would want to get into faith driven investments. The minimums are too high. The lockups are too long. A whole list of reasons why a lot of times private equity investments aren’t successful. And yet where we’re coming to understand through the leadership of people like Dave and others is that we can get a lot of the spiritual integration we’re looking for in our portfolio from public equities as well. And that’s because public equities are run by Christ followers. Many of them are where there is somebody like a Pat Gelsinger from VMware is really serious about his faith and really serious about excellence in the work that he does. And there’s just great spiritual integration in play. And to help us to understand the world of public equity investments and then in particular, as I said before, direct index investments. We’ve got Dave Beedi with us on the program. So, Dave, thank you very much for joining us.

Dave Beatty: I love the topic. Love you, Henry, and look forward to the discussion.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you, brother. So before we get into what you do right now, Varity Daintree, some of your companies start at the beginning. Who are you? Where do you come from? You found yourself on the Faith Driven Investor podcast. So presumably your Christian faith is a part of your life. When did it start? Help us understand who Dave Barry is.

Dave Beatty: Well, you know, I’m an old guy, so I should think what’s really relevant here, maybe I’ll organize it by some places that were turning points for me and faith that connected with values or place kind of the nexus of faith and vocation kind of around that. I’m remembering when I was I was probably like 13. You know, I’m in middle school, which means it’s already difficult. Right. And my family was one of those that provided meals, but never any other time, really. And I only prayed when I needed something. And I remember this distinct realization like this probably isn’t how it’s supposed to work, either I need to be all in or I’m not in on this thing, you know, kind of a matter of my conscience. Right. And so actually, soon after that, I really went deeper with God. So that’s one turning point I remember. And then another one would be in college. And I was good at science and I chose to do the humanities and history and government and that kind of thing. This isn’t the way you should think about things. I’m just confessing how I I was thinking, gee, you know, if you’re a scientist, you just get stuck in a lab and you’re not really where decisions are made and where you have those choices about what matters and have influence for God. So I studied history and so forth. I thought process. Right. And then I think and grad school kind of a similar thought process. And I studied not for profit management, or at least that’s what I started at business school. And it was very conscious, like, how can I make a difference for God? I’m not saying that was a good choice. In fact, I found out it wasn’t later because later in my 20s, I was working for a not for profit and I was a controller and I just had the distinct impression, you know, I’m really not making a difference here and this doesn’t really suit me. So I quit my job and just did consulting. Well, I kind of took a semi sabbatical and thought God and read books. And I mean, I’m an action guy. So doing this is actually kind of hard, you know, like take time to think about it and talk to people and pray, you know. And I kind of realize I think I want to go into finance. It’s where I have talents is where I have interest. And there’s all sorts of moral ambiguity and ways to influence things for God. So that’s when I got engaged. I could tell kind of how that path went. But eventually it ended up I started a company, multifamily office,

Henry Kaestner: say that last part again, I’m just in front of myself, just kind of gravitated towards that statement. I’m drawn into finance because I’m good at it. I’m interested in it. And there’s all this moral ambiguity. Say more about that.

Dave Beatty: Well, it was the sense I was thinking of going into personal financial advice for. And I saw how, you know, the typical advisor was somebody at Goldman Sachs or Merrill Lynch, and I kind of comprehended the conflicts involved and how could it be done differently? And I just like there are unending questions of what it means to follow God in those circumstances. I’m interested in that.

Henry Kaestner: So if you’re at Goldman Sachs, maybe I’m being presumptuous or prescriptive here, but if you’re one of the traditional Waterhouses and you get paid on assets under management is probably morally ambiguous for you to think about suggesting that your client lean into their heart and give away 20 million dollars to their favorite African orphanage,

Dave Beatty: they can be giving the money away. And of course, you know, I’m an old guy. So this is back when commissions were dominant. So just the fact of you got paid on whatever you recommended and that was a conflict. And I actually started out wanting to study taxes because a lot of taxes permeated issues and they were often ignored. And that’s kind of the backdrop for how I happened to be a very doing direct indexing to get you. You know, it’s a matter of conscience, you know, and that’s part of what we’re dealing with in Faith Driven Investor.

Luke Roush: So direct indexing is something that’s probably a new concept for some of the listeners of the podcast. Could you give them just a brief overview of what it is, how it works and how you use it as sort of a screen or filter for some of your clients?

Dave Beatty: Sure. First of all, know that it’s just hot right now. The two biggest companies in the space are being sold and that’s just got announced in the last couple of months. And it’s that Parametric and Aperio. And I could talk more about that. Direct indexing has been around for quite a while, but not really big. So it’s natural you might not have heard of it. It really means you’re acquiring the public equities in a separately managed account. But think of it as mimicking what an index fund or an ETF would do. So I would describe that as writing three ways. The passive wave or indexing the second wave would be tax efficient and the third way would be around values and ESG and all that. It’s writing all those waves in one package and I explain how it works, but that’s the big picture of what it’s doing.

Luke Roush: How individualized is your approach at Varity or is it is it something where, you know you’ve got a menu and people choose off the menu, or do you actually consult with them to try to understand for believers who are clients or others who are values driven in different ways? Maybe just speak to a little bit of how you help folks arrive at the right product, so to speak?

Dave Beatty: Yeah, typically, Luke, what do most people do? That’s where people start because it’s so complicated. What do most people do? They just want to know it’s possible. That’s the first step. But if you really want to get into it, you can customize it however you want. So, yeah, we have menus. My goodness. We had a I say client. We really have advisors are our clients and their end clients. So this is an end client working with advisor and they’re coming from some faith perspective, but they’re also Armenian. And they were like, I don’t want to invest in Turkey. So they went deep down that path and now they have nothing niche. Yeah. So they could express that in their portfolio. And that was tremendously satisfying and motivating for them.

Henry Kaestner: So I happen this goes hand in hand with some of the other things that might be obvious to some about investing in terms of tax harvesting and some of the other controls that you give and maybe just go through that real quickly. So somebody listening to S.C., I think I get it so I can invest in an index. I understand that the index tends to be two thirds of the financial managers anyway, and index team can have really, really low expenses. OK, help me to understand, what are the three or four things that a parametric or a verity can provide you that make this really super compelling? It’s such a hot space right now.

Dave Beatty: Yeah, that’s a good way to ask it, Henry. I find most people that can’t get to the values until they understand the core part. So let’s say you didn’t even care about the value slice. Like I said, two waves. One, it’s just it’s an index product. So you want to get the results of the index and let’s say it’s five hundred. Can I invest in it at low cost? Well, of course you can. You can go buy the spider ETF, that really low cost or whatever vehicle. So why would you do something else? Well, you can if you had enough money, you can just go replicated in your own account. You buy all five hundred stocks in the right proportions and you get exactly the results of the index. You can do that. Well, why would you want to ETFs just fine? Well, if you had enough money and you can do that at low cost, all of a sudden you can add tax benefits because you can get first thing we do is we do sampling. You don’t have to actually buy all five hundred to get the same results. You can buy a couple hundred. And using statistics get very close to. The same results. So that’s the first step. The next step is, and you still have some oil stocks, you still have some tech stocks, you still have some consumer stocks, but if you classically cook goes up, Pepsi goes down, you can sell Pepsi by Coke and still be mimicking the index so you can actually harvest losses. Sometimes short term losses get a tax benefit now and at least defer taxes, and it’s surprising the benefit and I could go over that. So that’s the reason you have a separate account. You’re using sampling and you get the index results, but better even after your expenses. Your result after taxes is better than you can get with the ETF. So that’s step one. And once somebody becomes convinced of that, we say, well, you also can express your values. And it could be anything, could just be environmental concerns. It could be your issue is abortion, whatever, because you’re sampling. It helps you imagine it. Oh, you mean I don’t have to buy every drug stock I can avoid Johnson and Johnson, that manufacturers abortifacients and buy this other drug stock and still have exposures and still get the results of the index a little more? A little less maybe. But really close. Yes, you can do that.

Luke Roush: How do you think I’d love to just have you expound on that a little bit, that the S&P delivers eight percent this year and you’ve got someone who is not incorporating their values. How do you think about sort of the bips benefit of being able to do tax loss harvesting relative to maybe like an eight percent benchmark? And then maybe also talk about two different scenarios, someone who’s really narrowly defined, like I’m really sensitive to abortion and alcohol and tobacco and gambling and all these things. How do you think about the likely track near for them versus and then maybe somebody else who’s not so narrow but does have a couple of issues that they’re really sensitive to call it sort of abortion and perfectly OK.

Dave Beatty: So your first part of your question is around essentially the benefits of the tax. Is it really worth it? And then we’ll shift to the values on the I’m calling it tax. So that’s my lingo. You know, you don’t know what investment Alpha is will on taxes if you’re saving taxes. We’re just calling that the alpha. And if you can save present value about one percent a year on your taxes, that’s real money. And if the cost of the direct indexing is a fraction of a percent, so your tax benefit is usually multiples of your cost

Luke Roush: down to 70 or 80 bips on an eight percent base. Is that accurate?

Dave Beatty: Yeah. If you had a target and remember, we do have tracking here. So if the index got eight percent, well, most of the time you might be between seven and nine. On average, you still have eight. And then you have tax alpha, let’s call it on average, an extra one percent will after taxes, you’re really getting, you know, better. Now, what makes that even I could give you lots of detail about what makes the tax AlphaBeta worse. It actually diminishes over time. It’s usually a lot more than one percent up front. It’s less later. Another thing to understand is if you’re charitably minded, I could explain how, but you could double your tax benefit. So it could even be more than that, approximately one percent. So it’s for real. It’s predictable. No investment, alpha, hard to predict. Tax Alpha, very predictable. Even in up markets, you still get it. So that’s the first part. Is it OK to move over to your question on the value?

Luke Roush: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you.

Dave Beatty: OK, yeah. If you have those concerns, you listed a few and the ears were kind of the classic conservative Christian. You know, I want to screen out a few things tobacco, alcohol, etc., abortion, maybe those usually. And we could show you a menu. And actually, how many would drop out of the S&P 500 when you did those restrictions? That’s not going to increase your tracking error around the index. Every time you take something out, you screen it out. It means you’ve reduced your universe, which means we have fewer tools to work with in trying to still mimic the index. So, yes, it ups your tracking error a bit, Luke, but we can estimate that change. And I’ve never seen anyone balk at their when you can have a problem, if somebody just says, you know, you’re taking lots of stocks out of your universe, say you say, you know, it’s not just you low carbon, it’s I don’t want anything with carbon in it. You take up all the oil stocks, you start up and you’re tracking your substantially. You can see where I’m going. And we can always estimate that for people ahead of time so they know what they get into. Even in our menu, it kind of shows you how many stocks might I weed out if I have that exclusion.

Luke Roush: That’s helpful. So, Dave, I’m going to ask an obvious question then I want Henry to chime in. But we have good clarity on why many investors choose not to do either real estate, invest in your private equity venture investing just because of the long whole time, illiquid, high beta or high binary outcomes. But why doesn’t everybody do this? Maybe just speak to that. It seems everybody holds public stocks or most people hold public stocks. What’s the constraining factor?

Dave Beatty: Really? Good question. One, there is an issue about minimums. It’s so easy to just go buy the ETF. And it’s cheap and it’s easy and direct indexing, the minimums are coming down, but typically start thinking you need at least two hundred fifty five hundred thousand dollars in a separate account to do it. So that’s a deterrent. Most of the rest is honestly, I just think people becoming accustomed to it. It’s really hot. Now, look look at the sales that just happened of the two biggest players in the space. There’s a reason that the biggest players, Parametric and their parent, Eaton Vance, was just announced in the last couple of months to be purchased by Morgan Stanley. And just in the last couple of weeks, we heard the second biggest player in the direct indexing Space Aperio, an announcement of their acquisition by BlackRock. And all the biggest players you can think of in financial services are pushing hard into this. They see it answers the trends and ESG customization, personalization. It is a big movement. If people aren’t paying attention now, they will be.

Henry Kaestner: So if you’re listeners from Goldman Sachs, listen to that. Here’s the time they Badi Varity management. They’re the number three guy out there in the space. You snooze, you lose. TOTUS is a is a Christ follower. As you look at and have looked at the public equity market. What are the opportunities that you see for somebody driven by their faith to not only necessarily say no abortifacients or nothing that has makes money on pornography? And actually, before I go there, do you have the ability to when somebody comes to you and says, listen, I know that I know that I don’t want to be involved in pornography, but I have no idea which of the companies in the S&P 500 might benefit from that and where that might be de minimus. Do you have resources analyst, something where you can go back and say, OK, well, X, Y, Z company has gets two percent of their income from adult entertainment or somebody else gets a trace amount, but it’s less than one percent and maybe it’s de minimis. Do you walk people through how they can go ahead and say, OK, yes, that’s right. I want to get that screened out or do they need to come to you having already done their own research?

Dave Beatty: Most of the time they come to us and they can work off the menu and we can help them with that if you take it. I’m not sure what example to use, but first, let me describe what’s possible. Even on our menus, we have essentially strict and broader exclusions. So you can say in this area, I just want to have zero tolerance or very tight. I don’t want to get close to abortifacients in another area. Maybe it’s around alcohol. You’re saying I’m interested, but help me understand the area and we could help someone understand. There’s the manufacturers, the distributors. Here’s the impact of advertising in the space. Advertising is the one of the most predatory effects of the industry. You know, it’s often very specifically targeted in inner city neighborhoods next to a high school, et cetera. You know, we can go through some of those in education about the space and then we can show them how to apply it. It can have materiality limits that are based on just percentage of revenues. They could have materiality limits that are based on district dollar limits. I want no more than X dollars of revenue. Does that give you a window into it, Henry?

Henry Kaestner: No, I think that that’s good. So in many cases, you’re able to guide somebody through this process to go then let’s take the other places headed, which is as a Christ follower, understanding that Christian leaders have an impact to make, have the ability to make an impact in really any sector of life in the military, in the arts, in government, and then also in business. What does it look like for Christ to say, I want to invest in leaders that share my values and maybe it doesn’t have to do with a specific product or category, but maybe it’s the type of leader want you riff on that a little bit. And just when you see the future of the industry and some of the different things that you’re looking at, Varity, give us a sneak peek into how you’re thinking about advising clients, maybe some of the new product segments that you think might be able to be possible for the Faith Driven Investor.

Luke Roush: That’s going to also try and just interject. That’s also going to tie into this idea of how do we move beyond just things that we’re trying to stay away of, but how do we identify leaders that are positively impacting the world that they’re operating within?

Dave Beatty: OK, that’s great, Luke. But back to your question, Henry, I have to say, I think you’ve educated me on that more than I can educate you, because Verity is like these other companies. We start with publicly available databases to help people with their screens. And we don’t have good databases on Christian leaders and companies. And some of the perspective that you’ve drawn, we are working on some of those things, but we don’t have it off the shelf. So it’s not easy to be my first answer on that.

Henry Kaestner: But it’s in development, right?

Dave Beatty: It’s in development, yes. With your help and there’s other places, look, you’re getting the positive and negative screens like one of the positive screens we’re working on with our partner. Bright Light is a positive screen around racial reconciliation. Henry, I know you and your team, you’ve been very interested in the positive screens and how can we approach it, and that’s really appealing. In the past, traditionally, most of the best data is to help with negative screens. We do have positive screens. We have ESG data. And I could talk more about that. There’s a lot to talk about there. We have the UN Sustainable Development Goals, the UN Stig’s that we can use positively, but we’re working on how we can use more positive screens. But there are all of the peace, the positive and the negative together are what best help the investor apply their values.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us, what does that look like? How do you invest positively towards racial reconciliation? How do you say, gosh, Coca-Cola program towards racial reconciliation is outstanding, but Delta is not so much or vice versa. What does that look like?

Dave Beatty: I’m not going to give you a very complete or intelligent answer yet, although I think we’re close to being able to roll it out. But I would say it reflects some of what else we see in the marketplace. The ESG positive screens come from lots of companies. This is a very indirect way of answering and they’re problematic. What the data is, they’re usually very dated, 12 to 18 months plus old. They’re self reported. They’re defined very differently by different players in the marketplace. The cross correlations between some Mkhize ESG data and another is usually in the order of like point five, five to point six for your investment. People here well, understand that’s very low correlation and environmental scores. It’s higher. But when you get into the governance once, like, are there women on the board and so forth, there’s a few that correlate highly. But the labels are inconsistent. It’s very difficult area to apply. So I think the first thing I would meant is this industry still has a long way to go. There’s a lot of efforts you may be reading about to try to synchronize how we define ESG and the kind of force, a certain point of view on companies about how to approach those issues. And sometimes for Christian investor, those can be very welcome and sometimes they may not be. When you dig underneath, they may not align with your values. So I think that’s one of the things Varity is trying to work at, is to try to make these things less opaque for the Christian investor so they can understand them and make those choices. And we’re trying to make the right filters and screens available to those Christian investors. Very serves anyone I’m saying. But there’s a particular gap in the marketplace in what’s available to the Christian investor.

Henry Kaestner: Let me just ask this. Another kind of fundamental question back to direct investing is presumably something out of our listeners are having the wheels turn in their head, say I am just drawn to regional investing. I want to invest in the heartland. And so out of five hundred companies, maybe two hundred and twenty of them are headquartered not on the coast. And that’s just where I’m drawn to. I’m just coming up with an example. If I came to you with a list of two hundred and twenty, could you tell me if I gave you that list, all the stock samples get uploaded into this incredible cloud computer that you have. Could you then come back to me and say, well, Henry, based on that list, our data would tell you that you’re likely to be within four hundred basis points of the index or three hundred. Can you give that type of a sensitivity analysis? Because I’m intrigued by what you’re saying before, which is you don’t need to have all five hundred of the companies to approximate the returns of the S&P 500. You can do it on something less. So does your technology allow us to be able to say, if I give you my custom list, this is how close you can expect to track it with plus or minus in error?

Dave Beatty: Yes, and that’s not very technology. We have to layer technology onto the tools in the marketplace. But there are a number of tried and true third party tools that have been in use for decades to do exactly that. So if we did the screening and it was companies in the Midwest, etc., and we got our reduced universe, the tools do allow you to come back and predict. And you told us my benchmark is Russell one thousand or whatever you said we’d say how much the universe would be reduced and what your new tracking error would be. Yes, that’s tried and true technology that we can use.

Luke Roush: So as customers kind of come inbound to you, you talked a little bit about just asset thresholds that people need to be able to meet for today. It makes sense for them. What are most people coming in asking for? What are the first two or three questions? And maybe that’s illustrated for some of the investors who are listening to this interview to understand how they might be able to either send folks your way or have a conversation about direct investing in a values driven manner with some of their clients, maybe just kind of where do people start?

Dave Beatty: Typically, remember, we work with both. Investment advisers and with institutions, when the institutions come, it’s always they come in with their values, they want applied and it’s very targeted and specific. When an adviser comes, it depends. And we’ve had advisers come in and all it is, it’s only about tax. So that’s what drives it. That’s what they want to get. And we do that for them. And then some other advisers, it’s mostly Christian clients, and they’ve had some client who’s really important to them, that this issue is important to them when they’re finally realizing, you know, Verity can help us make this client happy. It could be they have a tax transition issue because the direct indexing is a great multitool. It’s not just put cash in the account. You can have a sum manager that’s not done well for them, an active manager pick it and they want to migrate it to passive. And we can take in those positions some very low basis and migrated into a direct indexing solution with a lot lower transition tax cost than they otherwise would have to pay and start layering in values or whatever they want same time. So it’s a real multitool to solve lots of problems with advisors.

Luke Roush: Makes sense to me. I think as advisors, there’s clearly margin pressure in that industry and I think there’s a lot of folks that are reevaluating how they align either with the White House or go independent and have a little bit more flexibility to deliver more customized solutions to their clients that they can’t maybe instead of a major White House. So I think that the value for our eyes is very clear to me. Is that where you see most of the growth in your sector? Is that why these other two front runners got bought?

Dave Beatty: Most of the growth has been in private client assets, but I’ve been surprised at the trajectory we have in the institutional space, and that’s with mostly faith based clients. And Verity is very responsive to that. So that’s been a thrill for us. If you look at the major players, Parametric, I was talking to one of the parametric staff just within the last well year and a half or so, and they said it was only about 10 percent of their overall assets that were being applied with values, which is a remarkably low percentage for all the talk you get in the marketplace. So that’s changing. But that gives you an idea where the industry is now.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. So, Dave, I’m grateful for a time. I’m grateful for you helping us understand direct indexing the opportunities. I hope that our listeners are thinking about different ways that this can apply to their portfolio and what are the different ways that their values might be able to impact the type of portfolio that they put together that would look to an index, take advantage of some of the tax harvesting that you’re talking about, and participate more generally in the public equity space. Because, again, so much of our focus on this podcast has been on the private equity space, which continues to be really, really compelling. But we find, of course, that our faith can guide us in every asset class, how we do our real estate investing, how we do our private equity investing, of course, how we can now understand how to do it with our public equity investing. So thank you for that. We look forward to staying in touch with you, hearing about the developments that you’re seeing in the market and just how Faith Driven Investor might be able to apply this to their portfolios. We’d like to close out every one of our interviews with asking our guests what they’re hearing from God through his word. And it doesn’t need to be this morning, though. It could be, but sometime within the last week or so where you really feel that God is speaking to you and then maybe some area that we can be praying for you about.

Dave Beatty: Thank you. It’s interesting because in just the last couple of weeks, I was marinating a bit on Romans fourteen. Now that’s where it talks about the strong and the weak brother, you know, who thinks that they can eat meat and who thinks that they shouldn’t and so forth. And it really does apply to the conversations we have around faith based investing, you know, to not judge one another, even when we have different opinions. It’s just common. You know, have you ever disagreed with someone about what’s allowable behavior? And, you know, the chapter really encourages us to come at it with love. And I’m both convicted by that. And also doesn’t say, though it doesn’t deny Paul is really one who ate meat and thought it was fine. So he wasn’t saying both positions were right. He was talking about how we love one another. So I’ve just been thinking about how that applies and the work we’re trying to do together. And Faith Driven Investor

Henry Kaestner: says very interesting. So maybe the extrapolation of that, of course, is somebody might say, gosh, my faith tells me that I shouldn’t invest in anything that has a carbon footprint or it produces things in somebody else might not have that. And what your application is here is that let’s not be judgmental necessarily. Maybe there’s some other areas that are maybe less the greater, but maybe not. But you’re. Larger point is, what I’m hearing from you is that you’re hearing from God that we’re to be known for our love for one another, not to judge what is helpful for somebody to come to know God in one instance may be different for somebody in another instance. And so let’s make sure that we’re erring on the side of loving and understanding and not judging.

Dave Beatty: That’s right. And whatever our opinion, all of us, in the end, the Romans, 14, says, you know, every need shall bow and every tongue give praise to God, whatever our opinion, which is probably a good note to end on. Indeed. Indeed.

Henry Kaestner: Dave, I’m grateful for you. Thank you.

Dave Beatty: Thank you, guys. So good to be on this journey with you.

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Not every Faith Driven Investor is called to a Christian-based investing fund or job. In fact, many of the people listening to this podcast work in secular markets, which is exactly why we talked to Andrew Manton today.

Andrew is the Portfolio Manager for the Shelton International Select Equity strategy. We had an interesting conversation with him about how he is operating in a non-Christian company but is now evangelizing the firm and the salespeople based on how he is managing his fund. 

Today, you’ll hear him describe how rather than joining a Christian-specific fund, he sees his current work as an opportunity to live out his faith.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Andrew Manton: I was asking for advice on how they worded things in their prospectus and how they talk to clients who might be faith based and might not know how they go about finding their way in the overall context of the investing world, because it doesn’t have to be binary, doesn’t have to be your faith based. You just talked to faith based advisors and that’s how your marketing to that’s all you really want to talk to.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. We’ve got a special guest today in the virtual studio, Andrew Manton and Andrew is a guy that’s got a really neat story. We spent a good amount of time on the podcast talking about private equity. We have talked about public equities before. We tend to focus on some of the fun groups, the fun families that are more specific in the faith driven space or in the value space. But today we’ve got a guy who is a portfolio manager who is really serious about his faith, and he works in a largely secular firm and he’s going to share with us about his story and what does it look like for him. And our hope through this, of course, is that if you’re listening to this and you’re motivated by your faith and you’re working on Wall Street, you’re working in financial services, that some part of Andrew’s story might be an encouragement to you as you look to be salt and light and look to the guy to guide you and what you’re doing as you invest with excellence. So, Andrew, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining us.

Andrew Manton: Thanks. Great to be here.

Henry Kaestner: So we love to hear about the personal backgrounds and the faith journeys of all of our guests, whether it’s on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast or Faith Driven Investor podcast, of course. So tell us who you are, where you come from, and weave your faith journey into that as well, please.

Andrew Manton: Sure. Yeah. So as you said, I work for a company called Shelton Capital Management and I’m a portfolio manager for a couple of mutual funds, both international ones and international. One is a purely M fund.

Henry Kaestner: And that’s what I mean. Emerging markets.

Andrew Manton: Emerging markets, correct? Yeah. So I’ve been on Wall Street persay for about 20 years, a little over when I came out of grad school, right around two dozen ETFs, I went to the Asia Asset Management, which is Deutsche Bank’s asset management group, and was hired by an international team there. And we almost immediately jumped to another firm called Victory Capital. And then that happened right before the bubble burst, really. So the firm that we were at victory went from about 50 billion to 16 over the course of about five years. So it was very difficult for us

Luke Roush: in the wrong direction,

Andrew Manton: wrong direction, very difficult to raise money. So from a business standpoint, wasn’t the best place to be. So I left there to go to another company, a small company. I wanted to kind of take away the big firm risk, as it were, and went to a small company. And within a year that from one from about 10 billion to one billion. So I had a firm but shrank quite a bit again. And that firm just had to fold because of the loss of revenue there. So eventually found my way to share some capital. And I was about five years ago and I’ve been here ever since. But the international strategy that I’ve been running now for 12 years has a 12 track record. However, when we got here, we sort of had to start over from a mutual fund standpoint. So we have a mutual fund. It’s almost a five year track record now. And I just took over my firm, just bought another company last year and we took over an IBM fund as well. But three years ago, I was feeling pretty lost. Business wasn’t great, wasn’t getting a whole lot of recognition. The performance is really good. The funds, which is something, was missing. My wife and I for a long time were talking about how we could kind of weave in the kingdom to what I do day to day. And so we would talk quite a bit about setting up another fund to either mirror what I was doing or set up some kind of a giving fund with proceeds from the fund I was managing. And nothing really felt right. And I didn’t know how I was going to look. We prayed a lot about it together, but three years ago I got a phone call from a group down in Alabama and they said, hey, you know, we’re a faith based firm. We put models together of faith based mutual funds for faith based advisors. You know, we’ve been we need a new international fund. We’ve been following you performances. Great. We ran through all the companies to our screen. They screen out fine. You know, by chance, do you run any money for faith based groups or organizations? And I jumped up thinking that this is like the first time I get a chance to actually talk about my faith and what and how I picked stocks and how I incorporate that and what I do and just kind of hit me that. Well, this could be a great thing. So through that phone call, we started talking a little bit more and they said, you know, this sounds great. You should really take a look at this faith based industry now, this faith based investing industry. There’s a group of companies that are pretty exciting that are doing some interesting things, and you really should be a part of it. So I did that. And through that connection, I met a lot of people at various of the firms like Eventide Ameriprise. And very quickly, I got connected to a lot of people that told me their story and what they were doing.

Luke Roush: So, Andrew, just out of curiosity, who was the first person that called you and said, hey, have you ever thought about Cole Pearson?

Andrew Manton: It was awesome,

Luke Roush: awesome

Andrew Manton: So shoutout to Cole. But yeah, he’s really the one that really. Into this and through him very quickly, I met a lot of people, so, you know, the great thing about this is that everybody is so eager to help, whereas in most of Wall Street, nobody wants to help. It’s kind of you’re on your own and it’s your own island. So you go through that, though, I start taking a look at the space. And it was a big difference from what I saw then versus 10 years ago when I looked at the group of funds that were out there and the industries that were in the space world 10 years ago. If I’m being honest, it wasn’t all that exciting. There was a bunch of firms out there, not a bunch of few firms that were doing a lot of negative screening, and they were just kind of applying a screen to an index to pass a strategy, basically.

Henry Kaestner: So before I’m going to interject just one thing, because this is really important. This is much of what the media, the podcast is going to be. I do want to come back to the beginning, though. Did you grow up in a Christian home? Are you an adult convert? I, for instance, worked on Wall Street in the 90s as a secular guy and got caught up in all that. And I’m curious about how you came to have an active faith. Walk us through that a little bit. Where’d you grow up?

Andrew Manton: So I’m from Chicago. I grew up in a suburb north of Chicago. I grew up in the Catholic Church, actually went to a Catholic school my whole life. And I did not have a good experience. A lot of things happened to me that were not positive. So, yeah, I think I, like many teenagers to college age kids, fell out of the church for sure. In fact, quite the opposite way. I mean, I was studying very secular things. I was very far away from the church at that point for a time. It wasn’t until I really got married again. And my wife, who was a Lutheran at the time, we started talking about what is our marriage going to look like? How are we going to raise our kids, things like that? Were this whole idea of faith came back into my life and was telling Justin that we moved down to Dallas not too long ago,

Henry Kaestner: by the way, is our executive producer and the executive director of Faith Driven Investor.

Andrew Manton: I was telling Justin that we moved to Dallas for a couple of years after we got married. And you know, where I grew up in Chicago was very much a denominational thing. You went to a certain church and I didn’t really know anything different. But down in Dallas, there’s a lot of just Christian churches, non-denominational churches. And that’s when I really kind of realized that there’s this whole movement going on that is beyond being this or that. And it’s just it’s all about the Bible. So we found a church down there and started going. And it happened to be like most churches are in Texas. It was a megachurch. And I didn’t think I like a megachurch, but I fell in love with it. The pastor really spoke to me in ways that I’d never heard before, just about our truth in the Bible and who God wants us to be. And growing up in a Catholic church, there was a different conversation. It was a different way of thinking about the Bible and just that denomination of Catholicism. So through that, I got baptized again and really started to pick up where I once was when I was much younger and my faith. I went to grad school after that, and then we moved to the northeast where I am now in Connecticut. And we often joke know there’s been some revivals that have gone for this area. But the Northeast is not necessarily a place where we think of great religious awakenings happening. But there’s really a lot of things happening here that are kind of remarkable. I have an incredible group of friends that I’ve met here. There’s a ministry that we’re very close with and tied to now here in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Most of my friends are found through that ministry. And we have a men’s group now that’s at the

Henry Kaestner: Bridgeport Rescue Mission.

Andrew Manton: No, but we do work with them as well. We give to them. But the ministry is called we want more. But through that and just the brothers that I have now, through that, it’s really been something I just never would have thought was possible growing up.

Luke Roush: So, Andrea, I’d love to just kind of jump back into the story of what you do and how you feel. God’s presence in picking stocks and thinking about both negative screenname, but also positive screening. How do you go about that work? I mean, it’s a topic of interest. It’s a topic of particular relevance right now. So I’d love to just get kind of your philosophy around what that looks like in your current context.

Andrew Manton: You know, the way that I do it is very simple, really, the question that I ask when I look at a company is what’s the business? Is it on coal? Is it positive to society or not? Is it going to be adding fruit to people’s lives or not? And that’s kind of the first question we start with, and that’s what we’ve always done.

Luke Roush: So just to follow up on that, when you say fruit. How does that manifest itself in the context that you’re looking for?

Henry Kaestner: And give us some examples of some companies like, oh, my goodness, that’s exactly the type of

Luke Roush: jobs, what is human flourishing look like in the world of Andrew Amen stock picker extraordinaire?

Andrew Manton: Yeah, there’s so many examples that every company has its own, really. I try to pick apart what the businesses and then see what the product or service is. So, you know, one example in Indonesia, Indonesia is a fascinating country, is the fourth most populous country.

Luke Roush: I used to live in Indonesia.

Andrew Manton: I think I read that look.

Luke Roush: Good example.

Andrew Manton: Yeah. So you probably know you probably heard of bankruptcy out there.

Luke Roush: Oh, yeah, sure. Bankruptcy.

Andrew Manton: Yeah. So that’s one company we invest in. And the thing about bankruptcy yet, and you probably know a lot about microlensing as well in that part of the world, but Indonesia is interesting in that it has a state run micro lending program and it’s run through the banks. And Bank Rakyat is one of the biggest banks that uses this program. But Indonesia’s got its own challenges and banking because it’s an archipelago, its people are hard to reach. You can’t just set up a branch in one place because people just can’t get there. Yeah, yeah. So they are people. They give people a phone, basically. And there’s bankers all over the country walking around meeting farmers and people that have never been bank before and giving them loans.

Luke Roush: I think Montrachet actually did a deal either with Gergich or grab we were early investors and grab it to where both companies. And that provides maybe a really interesting distribution network for what Bank Rakyat is doing.

Andrew Manton: Distribution is definitely the key there because they have to be creative. It’s very high tech, which doesn’t necessarily you wouldn’t think of that in that part of the world. But it is. And the bankers are very unique and they’re walking around. Thanks. They can issue a loan to anybody on the street or in a village. So it’s an incredibly well-run program. It’s the state oversees the program. And so the banks are capped and what they can lose, but they’re highly incentivized to get loans out and do it quickly to other banks or the non bank.

Luke Roush: As you get into like a company like this, do you fly over and meet with the management team and try to see what it looks like on the ground? Are you doing it from a distance? How do you think about really kind of getting to know the company?

Andrew Manton: Yeah, usually from a distance. I mean, bankruptcy, it’s a huge company. So they come here. We’ll see in at conferences. I would love to say that every company we invest in, we go and see what they’re doing in various parts of the world, that we just find the resources for that, for one thing. But again, that’s why we say to larger cap companies, because we know who they are, they have a reputation. We’ve seen management before. And so it’s usually just more formal settings or a lot of phone calls.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m fascinated that you talking through this so you have this faith awakening when you’re in Texas, you come back up to Connecticut and obviously played in some ministries and become more alive in your faith and you’re alive enough in your faith that you have gone on to a reasonably public podcast. Not like we’re as big as Joe Rogan, but pretty big podcast to talk about your faith in investing. What do your coworkers make of your faith, how important it is to you and how it informs how you think about picking stocks? What does that look like?

Andrew Manton: Yeah, well, it was a concern when I first started bringing this up, I mean, again, this is three years ago when I started getting excited about this and wanted to talk about it more and more. So really, I stood up and one of our company meetings one time and I said, look, I’m a Christian and this is how I look at stocks. And at the time, I was nervous because I didn’t know how that was going to be perceived, but I was really surprised and the warm welcome that I got from that. And Shelton has been incredibly open minded about this incredibly welcoming and huge advocates of mine through this whole process. So they’ve allowed me to add some language to our perspectives about this. It’s been interesting to see how individually people have come up to me and ask questions. The sales team usually gets me on the phone call and we have a prospective client that they’re talking to. So it usually happens in the first or second phone call. And so they get to hear me talk to them and we’ll talk about things that they might be used to pray in the call. We might talk about

Henry Kaestner: your praying with your customers on a call. Yeah, that’s how does that come up before I go too far away. So what does it look like to change the wording in the prospectus to identify the fact that faith is something that you value and helps to inform how you steward LPI capital?

Andrew Manton: Yeah, so that was something I wasn’t sure of either. Again, reaching out to others in the community for advice on this was critical. It was introduced to Robin John at Eventide. He took an hour and a half an hour for a phone call to talk about what they were doing. I was asking for advice on how they worded things in their prospectus and how they talk to clients who might be faith based and might not know how they go about finding their way in the overall context of the investing world. Because it doesn’t have to be binary, doesn’t have to be your faith based. You just talked to faith based advisors and that’s how your marketing to that’s all you really want to talk to a lot of my clients or they may or may not know my faith. I don’t know. And there’s some that doesn’t come up at all. But it was really important to me to get some advice on this. So, Robin, walk me through how he would do it and help me kind of find the language that I felt comfortable with in the shelter and felt comfortable with to it. Just a little bit of language talking about how we want to just buy companies that are doing good things, some specifics around that and things that we won’t invest in as well. But it’s not like in your face language saying, you know, we’re not doing this and that and we stay away from everything that we use in stocks. It’s more gentle language saying that, look, we’re trying to do the right thing here. We’re trying to invest in companies that are just having a positive impact in the world.

Henry Kaestner: You find people that as you talk through that say so refreshing. And I’m also motivated by my Christian faith. And I’ve just I’ve never come across somebody that brings that up in a presentation like this.

Andrew Manton: Yeah, occasionally. I mean, it it’s usually that I know who the person is that I’m talking to. And so they’re either aware of it or again, it’s not a faith based conversation. But the adviser is not somebody that we know through Kingdome Advisors or has been introduced to us. And I might be a little bit more guarded sometimes in how I talk about it. The message is the same. We’re still out there trying to buy companies that are doing good and we’re just through that. We stay away from things that aren’t. It’s that simple, really. And the way I view it is it’s taking ESG to a whole other level. Really know people don’t want to buy things that are polluting the world. The companies that are contributing to that, which is great, is a great thing. But we seldom in that conversation do they talk about what they are investing in. And if those companies are really good companies, I mean, a lot of people don’t care about investing in things like companies that contribute to the gambling industry. Alcohol, tobacco, cannabis. Yes, things like that. That’s a whole nother conversation I think we should be having. I think that the faith based, world based investors should be leading the way and talking about those things because there’s a whole nother avenue we’re not going down right now.

Luke Roush: So you’ve got a global perspective. And as you talk about some of what you were just sharing on in terms of things that we as Christ followers should be known for, not known for, do you find that message relevant outside the US because it feels like it’s kind of picking up steam inside the US, but what do you experience external? And then also I want you to come back and just talk a little bit more about what prayer looks like and across cultural context, because some people would say it’s challenging enough to do here in the US, but you’re actually doing it globally, which is pretty exciting. So maybe just comment on both those things.

Andrew Manton: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s definitely really depends on the part of the world, too. I mean, so if we’re talking about companies in Europe, for example, I mean, Europe, the EU is founded on this whole premise of equality. It’s all about everybody’s equal. And that’s a pretty nice value, a virtue that I as a Christian can get behind. So it’s relevant when we’re talking to those companies. It’s relevant. They care what I think from that point of view. And I do feel like I have a voice and they listen. So when we’re talking to them, I think it’s certainly relevant and they’re receptive to it. When I’m talking about European companies to American investors, it does take a little bit of explaining because there’s things that maybe a European company would do that is not new or different, but just a little bit more liberal. Let’s say, again, this whole idea of equality means that they’re signing on to the UN standards of code of conduct for different things and their human rights initiative. So they might be giving to organizations that we might not agree with, but it’s in the spirit of equality. And again, that spirit can get behind. So that’s Europe. But there’s other parts of the world, too, that are very different. I mean, China, as we all know, is got a lot of challenges. Other controversial governments like Russia or the GCC countries, you know, much different stories. And you have to think about each culture, each country as you’re going into it. We have policies around certain countries. We won’t invest in Russia at all.

Luke Roush: And that’s where I was going to go. Maybe just some overarching kind of rules of the road for Christ followers who are out there. Listen to this message thinking about, OK, I want to do this. I think maybe I’m called to do something. Internationally, where should I start or where should I avoid any council on that?

Andrew Manton: Yeah, I mean, for us again, it’d be much easier if we had this very broad rules. But we have to go country by country. So for Russia, in my experience, it’s just not easy. It’s corruption. It’s just such a part of that country and it’s reverberates into the corporate world way too much. And so we just that risk to us is just not worth it. So we stay away from Russia. China is another is something I talk a lot about. The Communist Party has definitely changed in the last 20 years quite a bit. And Americans really, up until a couple of years ago were unaware of now what has been happening in China, the moves that they were making, the policies they had in place. And it was frustrating, certainly from an investing standpoint, to watch companies certainly that we invest in and in Europe, for example. And even here in the US, IP is being stolen or attempted to be stolen every day. So if we’re talking to a technology company in Europe, we have to ask questions about what, if anything, has been stolen. How long will it be until China starts a company that’s going to mimic what you guys do? So we talk a lot about IP theft. Certainly the human rights issues that are going on in China is something that we are very concerned with. And all of that limits what we invest in. In China. We still invest in China, but just to a very limited degree, yes, we stay away from companies that have anything to do with the state. So any state involvement, either through ownership or subsidies, companies that are usually on the list of the top industries that China is trying to go after and trying to strengthen. And it’s usually a lot of the tech areas

Luke Roush: coming back to Russia just for a moment. Many of us have followed the news of the Michael Calfee trial and some pretty significant developments even there in the last day or so. Has that experience kind of resonated in your world or is it more segmented off into private equity? Hasn’t stretched into public equity?

Andrew Manton: Yeah. And again, because we stay away from Russia, it’s not

Luke Roush: that wasn’t what led you away from Russia. Something else.

Andrew Manton: Now, we’ve had this policy in place for a long time. It’s just it’s a frustrating part of the world to invest in. But that country is different in how it’s run versus China, for instance.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us about some of the areas in the world that you are pretty excited about in an area or markets that you think are overlooked, that you think deliver good value and growth opportunities for your clients?

Andrew Manton: Yeah, I think in other parts of Southeast Asia, Indonesia is definitely one. Vietnam is definitely one that we’re looking at a lot more these days. Like about Vietnam. Yeah, they’re going to pick up traction companies that are looking to diversify supply chains away from China. That’s going to take a long time, but they’ll be beneficiaries slowly. And it’s kind of starting from a low base. So I think that they’ll definitely be beneficiaries of that over time. India, of course, will also be that they already have the infrastructure in place, I think to a large degree to benefit from that. And they continue to advance infrastructure projects to help that along. So that’s definitely an area. I mean, it’s dodgy areas like in Europe, Western Europe, for example. And then they have great companies that people overlook or don’t think about or maybe are household names, but they’re run by very good management teams and they produce returns to shareholders that are really good. And I can point to studies proving that some of the best foreign companies are actually in Europe and not the US. And certainly there’s good ones in the US, of course, that we of. But there’s a lot more in other places outside the US.

Henry Kaestner: How do you see as an investor, how do you see covid changing in the global markets? Maybe in a different way. I mean, obviously there’s some themes about working from home and the advancement of some technologies in telecommunications, in Zoom’s, et cetera. But maybe it’s something that a lot of people might not see coming down the pike that you think is different because of this era we’re living in.

Andrew Manton: But, yeah, besides what you just said, I think everything is just going to speed up in terms of being digitized. We invest in one company, for example, in Brazil. It’s called Arco Platform, and it’s a education company. And what they do is they basically taken the whole education experience from kindergarten to, I think through high school now digitized it. They sell their platform basically to schools or school districts and schools are run a little different down there, but they’ll sell the whole package. And it’s a whole curriculum. Along with the technology to schools. The schools will use this to teach all their students and it’s digitized all the way from the student to the teacher to the parents. So it’s the parents can track what the students are doing. The teachers are seeing what the students are doing. They get instant feedback on different things. And this is something that’s pretty advanced. But it’s taking place in Brazil right now. And I think the interesting things that might be more important going for. Or as we have these periods where there’s lockdowns or just the need to be flexible, so that’s one example that I want

Luke Roush: without going into all the detail of sheltered capital strategy. So Brazil is here now. Indonesia is here now. Vietnam is interesting. Now, what’s next? Fast forward five years where the regions of the world that you’re most excited about in the future.

Andrew Manton: I think Africa is always interesting. It seems to disappoint in many ways. But, you know, as we look at frontier markets, persay, there’s certainly a lot going on in Africa. I think that that could be something that’s maybe a little longer than five years down the road, but 10 years

Henry Kaestner: job growth there, apparently more in Africa than India and China combined because the just the age of the population. Right, right.

Andrew Manton: Yeah. It’s got demographics on its side. So that’s pretty exciting. You know, education is something that’s going to have to fill in there. But, yeah, I think that that is definitely a huge region that could could benefit from.

Luke Roush: So two practical limitations that I think oftentimes keep investors from wanting to wade into overseas public markets. One is questions about currency risk, and the second is questions about liquidity. How do you think about those things in the context of your work and that if there’s a faith overlay to some of that love to get your perspective there?

Andrew Manton: Well, you know, we are fundamental investors and part of our work investing overseas is to really have a stance or a view on the currency of the country that we’re investing in. So that’s part of what we do. We don’t hedge currency, but we have to believe that the country, the currency is not at risk of some kind of devaluation, let’s say. So that’s what I would say on currency. And the other thing is the companies that we’re investing our Large-Cap. So the average market cap of anything in our portfolio is a weighted average, is about one hundred billion dollars. So they’re big. So in most markets in the world, those are not going to have a problem with liquidity when we have liquidity rules around what we can invest in. So there needs to be a certain amount of liquidity in a stock and a company for us to invest in it.

Luke Roush: How about Insider Holdings? Some of these companies are pretty tightly held, at least in Indonesia and the Jakarta Exchange. Do you have any things you look at their practical counsel?

Andrew Manton: Yeah, again, it’s country by country. Every country in Asia, it seems like from Korea to Japan, they all have a certain culture there in the way that there is insider holding and or cross holding. So it’s something that we have to consider for sure. You know, there’s no hard and fast rules about that, but we have to understand what the connection is. You know, I love to say that we always want we really do always want an independent board, that’s for sure, made up of outsiders and that are not connected to the CEO in any way. So that’s one thing that we do really scrutinize. But the whole thing is country by country. It’s more about what’s normal in that country.

Henry Kaestner: And then and it’s been great having you with us. It’s really neat to hear encouraging to hear a faithful story of the way that you look at investing, the way that you look at the world, the way that you’re culturally appropriate when some witness with others in your firm and with customers and really appreciate you spending time and just being faithful out there. One of the things we like to do whenever we close out any of our podcasts is get an understanding from our guest about what they’re hearing and God’s word. And it doesn’t necessarily need to be today, though. It definitely could be. But maybe something over the last week or last month that you really feel that God is speaking to you about through his word.

Andrew Manton: I’m sure, you know, for me lately, I mean, anxiety has always been a part of my life to some degree, and that’s something I struggle with. And I’ll often look when I have a problem that comes up like anxiety or something else, I’ll look to the Bible, look to certain verses for inspirational things to see if something pops out. Lately I’ve been doing that. It’s just anxiety. And what’s really been popping out of me, really, is that my heart is really not in the right place. When I think about this, why do I really need I’ve been asking why do I really need to look for these things that I look to quite often and try to feel better? In other words, where is my heart really? Is it really that I just need comfort right now or am I really not believing that I have strength? And so the thing is, it’s going

Henry Kaestner: to be very hard in your position. You’re going to bed every night with open positions around the world. Yeah. You’ve raised money from from investors. They get a sense that you’re going to make the good bets. And undoubtedly, at least over the short term, I bet you have a good number of stocks that don’t look really good and promising in the short run. And that’s that’s got to be really hard.

Andrew Manton: Yeah, it has been lately. I’ve been underperforming the last month or so, and it’s because of where we are in the market. I tend to underperform when the market is getting very frothy. I tend to be very valuation aware and so we cut and or sell positions before they can get too expensive. So we tend to miss out on the last little bit to the market. So but through this, it’s caused a little bit of anxiety, but, you know, I’ve got this rock that I got at the Bible Museum a long time ago in Washington, D.C., and it’s Philippians for 13. And I looked at it the other day and it just hit me that why am I not looking to my strength, the strength that I get through him? Why do I dwell on that? Why do I dwell on the anxiety? And so I’ve been having these thoughts around that. And I guess where my heart is when it comes to issues that quickly pop up like anxiety instead of that ravaging my day or my moods or my just the way I feel and ask why am I not looking to my strength? Why am I not going to the strength which we all have within through? So that’s kind of what I’ve been thinking about a lot recently.

Henry Kaestner: That’s very good. Thank you very much.

Andrew Manton: Thank you, guys.