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Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m here with my great friend and co-host, John Coleman. John, good morning.

John Coleman: Hey, Henry. Good morning. How are you?

Henry Kaestner: I’m doing awesome. Thank you. I’m doing awesome for lots and lots of different reasons. I shouldn’t time guard this, but we’re getting ready to go into the Sweet 16 of March Madness and a lot of us are fired up about the different teams that we were following. And I am absolutely one of them. But I’m also really excited about what we’re talking about today at Faith Driven Investor. We’ve talked a little bit about arts and culture and entertainment a little bit. We’ve had John Irwin on the show, and we’ve started to explore a little bit about how important it is that we think about making investments in this space, and yet we really haven’t gone into it that much. And part of that is because both you and I and Luke are the co-hosts have this background in private equity investing. We tend to invest in lower and middle market companies in venture investing. And and there’s a different type of investing that happens no less important, but yet it’s different when we think about making investments in culture. And so to help us to get back on track with where we should be in focusing on this very important topic, we’ve got Craig Detweiler and Ben Howard with us on the show. Craig, Ben, welcome.

Ben Howard: Thank you. Good to be with you guys.

Craig Deitweller: Thanks, Henry.

Henry Kaestner: So we like to give an autobiographical flyover for every one of the guests that we’ve got on the show. And on occasion, we’ve got two of them on the show. And so what I’m going to do is I’m going to actually ask Ben for you to get started and talk about your background and autobiographical fly over. And then, Craig, if you could just pick up on that, give us a glimpse of that and then bring us into Wedgwood circle, please.

Ben Howard: Great. So excited to join you guys today. I am somebody who’s had the privilege of being involved in faith connected entertainment for over 30 years, starting in Christian music long ago, then a step where Bob the Tomato was my boss as I worked with Phil this year at Big Idea and I got to be part of what is Provident Films and be part of what the Kindred Brothers did with Fireproof and War Room and things like that. The Erwin brothers, we hired them to do their first music video, went all the way through. I can only imagine with them and now have my own entertainment company. God has continually given me the opportunity to help creative people do what they do. I have an MBA in an accounting degree, and my goal is if I can help creative people make a living out of what they do and at the same time have impact on culture, I’m very fortunate to get to do that.

Henry Kaestner: And by the way, I should mention when you talking about. Bob The tomato, Larry the cucumber. Phil Vischer has played such a big role in the Faith Driven Entrepreneur ministry that we have. I can’t think of any better overview of the identity of an entrepreneur than the way that he is talked to at our conferences. But then I think maybe it’s podcast number 20 or so, way back in the early days of Faith Driven Entrepreneur from minute 16:32 to minute 20:30, if our audience goes back and listens to it, it’s the best 4 minutes I’ve ever heard on the most important topic that a Faith Driven Entrepreneur or investor will encounter. And that’s the identity that we have. And he did a great job. Maybe we’ll link to it in the show notes, but thanks for having mentioned that, Craig. Who are you and where you come from?

Craig Deitweller: Well, Henry, I come from basketball country, but I am not cheering for the Tarheels or the Blue Devils. I actually went to Davidson College.

Henry Kaestner: Oh yes, Steph Curry. Yeah. And you guys almost pulled it out last weekend.

Craig Deitweller: You know what? I’m impressed with what we do with a small school. We are giant slayers is how we approach live. So my background is I came to faith through young life and that kind of wild, crazy, relational approach to understanding Jesus. But I also was rooted in my faith via film and seeing films like Raging Bull, which was this violent, profane R-rated film that it became this cautionary tale. And when I saw that as a kid, it like woke me up and I said, Something’s going on here that’s deeper and it’s getting to my soul. At the end of the film, it says, Once I was blind, but now I can see says it on screen. I was like, What does that mean and what does that look like? And so my life has been a process of coming to see Jesus through these other means and understanding the power of culture to lead people to faith, even in my own journey.

Henry Kaestner: You know, it’s really interesting. You mentioned Raging Bull. We had Dallas Jenkins on the podcast a couple of months ago and his dad got his start in the Left Behind series, and he’s talking about this background, very faith driven. And his father, despite being in the film industry, said, I don’t want my children to watch any movie until they’re 13. And then I’m like, wow. So that’s maybe austere, but, you know, tell us more about that. And what was the movie that you saw when you turned 13 is like, my dad had us watched The Godfather.

Henry Kaestner: That’s not. Not what I was expecting, but he says, you know, it was such a powerful movie and my father wanted to be able to help us to understand the power of cinema, the power of storytelling. And that was. What makes me think I don’t know that Raging Bull has the same thing. They both have Robert De Niro, but maybe there’s more there.

Craig Deitweller: Indeed. Well, now, since then, I’ve been both a filmmaker, a screenwriter, as well as an educator. And so I’ve taught, you know, hundreds of film students over the years, including Destin, Daniel Cretton, who directed Shang-Chi. And now I’m a professor dean of the College of the Arts and Media at Grand Canyon University, as well as president of the Wedgwood Circle, which invests in the good, true and beautiful for the common good.

John Coleman: When Craig, you definitely have the college professor background right now, there are at least a thousand books that we can see on video in the background. Talk to us a little bit more about Wedgwood Circle. It’s such an interesting organization with a great mission.

Craig Deitweller: Well, we’re actually named after a great entrepreneur, Josiah Wedgwood, who basically figured out how to turn his business, which was Wedgwood China and his art, which is, you know, telling stories through, you know, cameos and dishes. He funded the abolition movement, the abolition of slavery in England through his faith and his business put together. And so the Wedgwood circle is trying to do the same thing and try to help entrepreneurs and business people who want to impact culture. We’re like a concierge service to help people navigate these very complex industries that are sometimes hard to figure out. How do you make money in movies? Maybe people know how to lose money, but they don’t know how to make money. How would you invest in Broadway? What’s it like to invest in a music career? What do artists and musicians need? And so we have advisers, trusted advisers all over the country, people like Ben Howard, who have made money in entertainment in multiple different versions. And so that’s why Ben is here. He works alongside us at Wedgwood Circle, helping investors be good stewards of their money.

John Coleman: And Craig and Ben, I mean, that’s such a fascinating story. And one of the things that I love is that Wedgwood does have such a broad focus, you are covering different types of cultural institutions in media. Talk to us a little bit about why you think it’s so important that Christians invest in these different cultural artifacts and how it is that you came to invest in these, given your early interests?

Craig Deitweller: Well, honestly, it goes all the way back to the garden. You know, when Adam is called to tend the garden, to cultivate the garden. We might think of that as agricultural. But there’s also, I think at this point, a lot of us are no longer farmers. Maybe that is important in certain context to understand the importance of water and soil. I love the work that Faith Driven is doing in Africa with entrepreneurs. But most of us at this point are cultivating things like a culture of encouragement and goodness and truth. Maybe that’s in schools, maybe that’s in our churches, but can that also be in our entertainment? And so we take that cultural mandate and we apply it specifically to the arts where we might invest in someone like Jon Batiste, who you’ve seen on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert as the bandleader. Wedgwood gave him money maybe eight years ago when he needed some instruments before he was on Colbert. And since then, he’s won an Oscar for being on the score for Pixar for their movie Soul. And he’s up for 11 Grammys this year, more than any other artist, basically a faith driven jazz kid from New Orleans who just needed a little bit of encouragement and capital to launch his career.

John Coleman: It’s awesome. And one thing caught my attention, Craig I think a lot of folks associate investing in the arts with concessionary investing. The fact that you’re not likely to make money, you may even lose money in it. But you mentioned Ben has done so successfully. I mean, Ben, talk to us a little bit about what those investments look like from a financial perspective. And is it possible to actually make a return investing in the arts?

Ben Howard: Look, it’s definitely possible. And you guys spend your days in venture capital, private equity, etc.. In that sense, it’s really no different in that every film is a new business that’s starting a new business. And what often happens is somebody will invest in a single film, they’ll lose money and they’ll be out. And just like if they only did one venture capital private equity investment, it may or may not make money. And so the model has been flawed in that sense. People have not applied, generally accepted investing principles into their entertainment investing now, by no means is that guaranteed that they’re going to make money. It’s high risk. There’s got to be a double bottom line. It’s got to mean something else to you. But there are better ways to do it that improve your chances of making money and at the same time have impact on culture.

Henry Kaestner: So talk to us about some of those that’s intriguing to me. So there are some ways that you can invest that will increase your chances of doing well financially. What are some of those ways?

Ben Howard: So I don’t know your criteria for how you invest, but. I’d start off first of all with a better have a good management team. In other words, if you’re going to invest in a film and none of the producers none of the producers really are just shorthand for senior management team. If nobody on the senior management team has ever done this and succeeded, I’m guessing you don’t make a lot of investments into businesses that have nobody that’s done it before successfully. And so we look for teams for management teams that have at least done it at one point and succeeded at some level, not all of them. There’s got to be room for first timers or we’ll never build up young producers, young filmmakers. But somebody in the mix needs to have done it before. Another thing I greatly advise is don’t ever be 100% of the investment. Sometimes somebody comes in and they fund a whole, you know, the entire film, an entire project, whatever medium we’re in. I’d say never be more than 50% and always put your money. Besides, other smart investors reap the benefit of their experience and what they’ve done before. If you can just do those two things and let’s make an assumption that we’ve decided we have some money and we’re spreading it over multiple projects. That would be another piece. But you’ve really enhanced your chance not only of getting some of your money back or all of it and or profit, but you’re also at the same time having incredible impact on culture. So we really do go for kind of double bottom line.

John Coleman: That’s excellent. You know, there are a lot of areas of investing that are like that, Ben. And you’re right, I think there is a portfolio approach to anything that comes with a great amount of risk, which strikes me very much like venture capital. What I find interesting is that this is so unfamiliar to people. They often do need someone to hold their hand or to guide them through entering this new area of cultural impact or investing in the arts. And Wedgwood and you all and people like you seem to play that role. How does Wedgwood serve investors in that way, and how can people get involved in the organization in order to get more familiar with how to enter this space?

Craig Deitweller: Well, this kind of education that Ben’s providing now is something that we do for everybody, right? You express to us what you’re interested. Maybe you’re interested in Broadway. And then we’re going to try to connect you with some Broadway producers who’ve made money, maybe producing a show like The Temptations Show on Broadway. So you have points of reference, trusted advisers who can explain to you how the business works. We do that at least once a month with situations like this where we’re doing calls and, you know, bringing our members together. But we also do it in person. You know, we’re going to have gatherings. We’re going to be in Nashville in November for our 15th anniversary around Veterans Day, November 9th, 10th and 11th, I believe. And that’s a chance to gather with like minded people, meeting like minded artists and filmmakers and storytellers and figuring out how to just almost in a matchmaking service. Right. Getting to know people that you can trust that you’re comfortable with who have just both your interests, as well as the interests of getting that story out there.

Henry Kaestner: Can you talk a little bit about some of these stories that you’ve seen? And it could be on Broadway. I mean, you mentioned The Temptations side, but our audiences can be familiar with some amount of the work that you’ve done. And obviously, way back to Bob, the tomato and Larry the cucumber. But walk us through maybe some of these movie projects that you’ve done recently and maybe not at liberty to talk about every aspect of how the deal was structured or what the waterfall was back to investors, but make it a little bit more tangible for us. Help us to understand how some of these productions that we might be familiar with got financed and how they did.

Ben Howard: Yeah, you know what a great example would be? Blue Miracle. Blue Miracle is a film that people can go today and watch on Netflix. That’s a project that we put together last year, actually three years ago. So it got put together, filmed a couple of years ago. Netflix debuted it last year. First of all, it had a producer team that had done this before. My producer partner on that, one of them was Darren Moormon. Darren has done a number of things in the faith world that a lot of folks would be familiar with. Same kind of different as me was one of his projects he and I worked on Indivisible together. But so first off, back to kind of my criteria. Here was a management team, a producing team that had done this before. Our next step was to find some fellow investors. Some investors in this Provident Films came in. They are like minded. Endeavor Content is a company that wanted to have a part in this world Fair Trade, media, Mercy ME’s record company. They came in. So here we had people that all of whom had had success in the entertainment business who are now investing their money through in a great story, inspiring stand up and cheer, a story set in an orphanage in Mexico about being on the ocean. It was a great script, a great story, and then add Dennis Quaid to the mix. So we know now people choose to see movies, often based on the talent. And so we knew that was a critical piece of the puzzle. That movie got greenlit largely because of the management team around it, the producer team around it, the story itself, and then the talent and talents key a lot of time. People in this faith world at times try to make movies with talent that nobody knows. You know, it’s okay. It can work. But generally, if you want to help, your chances of succeeding with an investment, have talent that causes people to want to tune in and or go to the theater. So those elements really came together, Henry, and got that movie greenlit, got it made. And then that is something that was sold to Netflix for a profit. So everybody made their money back, made a little bit more money, and we’re putting the next one together right now.

John Coleman: You know what I love about that example, Ben, is historically a lot of people’s perception of Christian entertainment is totally separate, right? There’s Christian music, there’s Christian movies, Christian television shows, and it’s almost like a bubble. And, you know, we’re commanded to be in the world, but not of the world. And with Blue Miracle and some of the other projects like American Underdog that we’ve referenced here, those were wide releases that really touched a lot of lives outside of the traditional Christian bubble. How do you think for artists, or investors about navigating being in but not of the world and trying to have a broader cultural impact?

Ben Howard: I personally and be real interested in what Craig says about this as well. I think when we view redemptive stories, let them be just that. Don’t make them all be the same thing. Don’t make them all be a conversion film. Don’t make. Don’t have a formula they all have to fit. Tell great redemptive stories. Be a story of forgiveness. Might be a story of inspiration, etc.. Lots of ways to go about it. Then make sure we give them in the film what audiences expect when they go to theaters and talking about theaters. But obviously some movies will go streaming television directly. Use people with credibility, use directors that are known to the audiences, talent that’s known to the audience. These things to me give it a relevance that allow us to have something that gets outside of just the immediate Christian audience in the people who we can open their eyes to things they may never have thought of before. But to do that, we do have to be relevant artistically.

Craig Deitweller: And I think even back to my own experience as a kid, I maybe didn’t have enough of those Christian influences that were coming into my life. I needed a young life leader to take the risk and walk into my world, into my high school. And I feel like it’s the same thing with our living rooms. It’s the same thing with our movie theaters. It’s the same thing with our cell phones. We need to be involved with technology and storytelling and do all different kinds. And so when I see a series like Sweet Magnolias on Netflix, it’s run by a woman named Cheryl Anderson, who comes from a deep Lutheran faith. She’s going to infuse those values in that series across maybe one, two, three, four or five seasons. And it’s not going to preach at you in an obvious way, but it’s going to model maybe some behaviors that your family can talk about and invite you into that screen family in a way that builds a bridge that maybe a traditional Christian film maybe can’t do, that it’s too strong for some people who are more in an exploratory stage.

John Coleman: So what are some of the other things that you’re excited about in the faith driven area right now?

Ben Howard: So one thing I definitely want to tell you about is the story of Auntie Anne’s pretzels we learned of Ann through your podcast. That’s where we first go away. We’ve got to know where we’ve pulled together a group of people and we already have funding to have a script written. And so, you know, you earlier talked about a project that might get its beginning here. Hey, there’s one that’s already had its beginning here.

Henry Kaestner: How encouraging is that? Wow. That’s awesome.

John Coleman: Henry, how long until we get a bandwidth and Henry Kaestner script? How do we get that going?

Henry Kaestner: Oh, man. Yeah. You’ve got to have an incredible heroine like Auntie Anne and so we’ve automatically disqualified ourselves. Ben That’s really encouraging. And Craig just that’s awesome. We endeavor to be about content and community on this podcast, understanding that stories are the way that God brings us in and weaves this into the bigger story of what He’s doing in this world. And for you to take up the story of what God has done through Anne’s life, and for us to have it just a small part of it for you to hear for that story. Gosh, yes. That’s an incredible encouragement. And I cannot wait to see how you all work with that. That’s awesome. I don’t know, John, if that gets us, does that get us an invite to the premiere?

John Coleman: What I really want is a year of free Auntie Anne’s pretzel, I feel like that would be the big reward.

Ben Howard: Yeah me too

Craig Deitweller: Yeah, they’re really good.

Craig Deitweller: So Craig, you’ve written some books on just culture. You’re also a theologian and you’ve studied the subject and you speak to the just the influence of technology. Tell us about what you’re seeing in culture over the last 15 or 20 years. So how you interacted with culture is different when you came to know about Christ in young life, and that’s continue to expand. Just give us a fly over. What are you seeing and what are you seeing for the next five or ten years? What do you think culture is going to be about? What’s a role?

Craig Deitweller: That’s a great question Henry. Huge question, really. I think Christians were awakened by the success of something like The Passion of the Christ, and then you see it being replicated in a different kind of way through crowdfunding and something like the Chosen Series. And so there is a broad appetite that is really in some ways international for I would call it timeless biblical storytelling. But I’m also excited about what I would call the new voices, both the new voices of Christianity that might be coming from the two thirds world and then also might be telling us these stories that we haven’t maybe seen before and giving us back a sense of the difference that faith can make. So there was a gentleman named Lee Isaac Chung, who is a Korean immigrant. He went to Yale to study to be a doctor and fell in love with filmmaking instead. And he told a story last year called Minari, which was nominated for six Academy Awards. Brad Pitt gave him the million bucks that he needed to make the film because it was so touching and so real and it dignifies faith. It talks about the complexities of what it means to be an immigrant in America. And so it’s almost giving us back that kind of Hollywood film of the thirties and forties, like a Frank Capra kind of film, but filtered through the 21st century of what that maybe outsider experience of faith and culture looks like.

John Coleman: You recall an essay by a wonderful writer who was a Christian, Flannery O’Connor, perhaps the greatest short story writer of the last century, where she effectively talks about how a great story shouldn’t be easy.To summarize that, you have to let the characters in the story drive themselves rather than just having a point. And that seems so relevant. One thing I’ve noticed with a lot of the redemptive films or TV shows recently is how they are so story and character driven. And it feels to me like a lot of Christian filmmakers and writers have actually embraced that, as you all are outlining the power of redemptive stories and of weaving themes rather than leading with a message. As you look around the landscape, you’ve mentioned Broadway. We’ve talked music, movies, TV. Where do you think there’s a gap right now? Where would you say that Christians investing in culture or entertainment is most needed right now where there isn’t.

Craig Deitweller: What do you think, Ben?

Ben Howard: I don’t know that I’d pick one because I think they’re all relevant medium and that people of faith are underrepresented in all of them. I would say I think probably the music business has benefited the most from investment of larger mainstream companies into it. But I’d say in all of them we have work to do to bring up new, young, creative folks with a worldview compatible with what we’re talking about, to have impact on culture.

Craig Deitweller: My answer would be, I think we need more Christians involved in tech. We need more people like Henry, because those are the folks who are defining kind of the screens and the content and how things are distributed. So I think we have enough schools, whether that’s, you know, Belmont in Nashville, whether that’s Grand Canyon in Arizona, there’s enough schools educating young people in how to tell transformative stories. I don’t think we have enough executives who can give those green lights, who are savvy, business minded folks who have that ability to say, I want to see this on the big screen or this on the small screen or this on my phone. This is what I want to listen to. It’s what my family wants to gather around. So we need more, I think. Faith driven entrepreneurs to get into those boardrooms and get into that decision making.

Henry Kaestner: All right. So you got me going. So building off the culture, the things that you’ve seen, hitting on technology. Let’s look at the metaverse. What is the future of Christian entertainment content? Is that something we get involved with, or is that just like just such an alternate reality? It takes us away from the way that God designed things. Give us a perspective.

Craig Deitweller: Yesterday I was looking at a 4D technology that was being used to train officers in simulations, high risk situations, and the technology they were using had come from video games. Right. So we need more Christians involved in technology, making video games, building out the metaverse to figure out how to create this online world that is good, true and beautiful, and that has the possibility of the common good. And so at Grand Canyon, I’m pushing the university as fast as possible to say, Hey, you’ve got this great online reach. You need to create online classrooms and you need to create virtual simulations in this technology. They could create a virtual version of me in 10 minutes, like a 3D model version of me. You can make me dancing, do whatever else you want in 10 minutes. That’s what’s possible in this new technology. And so we need more people who can understand how to control the box, if you will, with the power at their fingertips really is.

Henry Kaestner: If you could make me dance in 10 minutes, you get a buyer. My wife Kimberly will spend a lot of money on a product like that.

John Coleman: I think the next podcast is exactly that. Henry We need to meet in the metaverse here, and we’ll all have dancing avatars. We’ll have our Oculus.

Henry Kaestner: There will be a first.

John Coleman: You know, we’ve talked a little bit about this medium from the investor side. But if you are an artist with a great idea, if you’re someone with a great vision in tech, it can be difficult to meet those and connect with those who are going to finance those projects. You know, often those folks are not terribly commercial. It may be difficult to communicate your idea. Coming at it from the other perspective. What advice would you give to those who have a great artistic idea or even a great technologically enabled idea in order to connect with those with capital to make that idea reality?

Craig Deitweller: Well, isn’t that the core of what the faith driven network is trying to build? And that’s really what we’re building at Wedgwood Circle is an on ramp with people who can vet projects and say, this is viable, but have you thought of it this way? Or, you know, maybe retool it a little more with this in mind. Right. People who understand the marketplace matching up with these faith driven artists, that’s what we do best at Wedgwood is try to connect artists to capital. That’s what you’re saying, Wedgwood.That’s what we want to do as well. What do you think Ben?

Ben Howard: Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I’d say most film makers, most artists have their first project be something that they probably funded out of their own piggybank or with their own parents in that. Just go do it. You know, the Kendrick brothers are fond of saying their first movies were run, chase and shoot movies made with a camcorder in the woods. And I really think that’s important. And that’s not just for people of faith. It’s how we exercise our craft. We just start doing it. And if we do it in a great way, a lot of times that’s what starts to get attention. So that’s what I would say is go do it.

John Coleman: We’ve talked a little bit about some of the successful projects that you’ve worked on, Ben and Craig, but are there some new artists out there and new projects that you’re really excited about that you’d want to put the spotlight on now that you think could make a big difference?

Craig Deitweller: Should we talk about the Boylan’s and what we did it at Grand Canyon, Ben?

Ben Howard: Yeah, let’s talk about the Boylan Sisters. Why don’t you talk about it from your vantage point?

Craig Deitweller: Oh, well, you know, how many times have we seen, like, sort of the Christian football movie, right? There’s all kinds of versions of that. So it’s all these guys making movies like, Hey, guys, Christian guys will love this. Well, what if you had some women who were saying, what about the girls? Right. Who’s making films for young Christian women or for mothers and daughters to interact? And Ben Howard introduced me to these two amazing sisters.

Ben Howard: The Boylan sisters are Andrea and Alexandra. They’re originally from the Northeast. One of them currently lives in Wisconsin and one in L.A. And they’re gifted storytellers, and they have incredible hearts for God, incredible hearts for young girls. And I came upon them about a year and a half ago here in Nashville, where I am. And they had a script and a story. I found out they’d made five movies and their investors had gotten paid back on all of them. And look, as somebody who’s seeking to make business out of entertainment, that’s gold. And so we immediately started to work on that next project. Their admittedly low budget, their previous projects that I was aware of had been up to half a million dollars. That’s a low budget. So we up to that, we went out in the more million dollar range and put a plan together and I intersected with Craig about that time and he was just making the move to Grand Canyon University. We were looking for a college campus to make our film on. We ended up making a movie at Grand Canyon in January. And let me tell you, Phoenix in January is a great place to be. These sisters, in my opinion, are God’s answer. Not that he’s been requested to answer this, but to the Erwin brothers and the Kendrick brothers. We now have the Boylans sisters and as Craig said, it’s like they’ve got a story and a heart for women and for young girls. And it made an incredible, I think, what will turn out to be incredible comedy, family film, teen film called Identity Crisis that will hit the world later this summer.

Craig Deitweller: And it’s really designed to get women and their daughters talking. Right. It’s about a girl who has a personal identity crisis. As a freshman in college, she feels like she can’t keep up with her engineering major as well as her, you know, her social life. And how do you do that? Well, she figures out how to clone herself. And so you got two versions of herself running around. It’s a lot of fun. They ran all over the Grand Canyon campus, but it was fun for us because we got Wedgwood investors involved at work on the financing. We think they’re going to get their money back, which means they’re going to want to do more. And that’s how it works, right? Tell them good stories, making sound business decisions so people can continue to work on their craft and tell their stories.

Henry Kaestner: For people have listened to the podcast for a long time, you know that we always end the podcast with the same questions. I’m going to give the two of you a heads up as to where this is going. We’re going to ask you at the end of this. What are you hearing from God in his word? Maybe it’s this morning, maybe it’s this week, but sometime recently that has encouraged you. It could have something to do with what we’re talking about. It could have something completely different. Okay, that’s where we’re going. That’s not where we’re going to get started. We’re going to get started. We’re going to bring back a feature that Luke and I had brought in six or seven episodes ago, which is kind of this lightning round of questions. And so each of you is allowed to answer. You had to keep your answers to less than 15 seconds. And then we are, of course, will close off with what are you hearing from God and his word? Okay. Number one, what story in the Bible do you think needs to be told next? So many characters, so many stories. What one is ready for the big screen next?

Ben Howard: Craig.

Craig Deitweller: Ben.

Ben Howard: You know what I’ve loved? I’ve always loved the story of Gideon. Nobody’s ever made a movie about a guy up against long odds with very little resources, and God made him do it in a way he never imagined.

Henry Kaestner: Good answer.

Ben Howard: I love the story of Gideon.

Henry Kaestner: Craig. It’s going to be hard to top that.

Craig Deitweller: I agree. That’s why I’m going to say we should do Gideon.

Henry Kaestner: Not very original, but maybe it just maybe that’s where it all started to start out here on the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Tell us about the origin story of that blockbuster movie that’s called Gideon. Okay, number two, tell us about you have interacted with lots of famous people, lots of folks that we’ve seen on the silver screen, and many of them are motivated by their faith. Give us one story of somebody that most of our audience is likely going to be familiar with their name, at least. Whose faith has inspired you? Oh, I hope there’s somebody.

Craig Deitweller: Yeah, well, there’s actually. There’s so many.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, good.

Craig Deitweller: Which is kind of amazing, I would say. Patricia Heaton and her consistent witness in sitcoms over the decades. Really impressive.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. For those of us who may not be as familiar with Patricia Heaton’s work as there may be Robert De Niro’s, help us understand where she’s been.

Craig Deitweller: Everybody Loves Raymond.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, there you go.

Craig Deitweller: The middle. Right. She’s kind of America’s mom and has done that as a person of faith with grace and aplomb.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, it’s awesome. Great answer. Great answer. You’ve redeemed yourself from the last one, Ben.

Ben Howard: Great answer. Yeah. And then I would offer Dennis Quaid. He’s the guy who I’ve got to work with a good bit recently become friends with. Dennis continues to choose projects that fill a void in terms of what our culture is hearing. And I don’t just mean faith, but just projects. He plays Ronald Reagan in the upcoming Reagan movie that I think will hit the world next year. And he’s taking roles and upping the ante, if you will, into messaging and stories that our culture needs to hear.

John Coleman: All right. I’m going to hit you with two more self-interested questions. We’re all living in a world where after COVID, I streamed entirely too much in terms of TV and movies. What’s the best movie or TV series, Faith Driven or Not, you’ve seen over the last six months? And why?

Ben Howard: Yeah, I’m going to throw out the one that’s probably among people I know always talked about, but maybe you guys haven’t hit up on it yet. But it’s Ted Lasso and it’s Jason Sudeikis. It’s on Apple TV and it’s about kindness and goodness and doing good. And it’s not a faith per say, but it’s all the things that come from faith. And so I love that show and I love how I feel when it’s over and the way I want to live when it’s done. And if that doesn’t define faith driven content, regardless of who’s making it, I don’t know what does.

Craig Deitweller: And I’ll go for the flip side of that. On the same network on Apple Tv+ the morning show really deals with the complexities of sin and the long tale of how bad choices continue to maybe spin you out and have a ripple effect. And so I think for businesspeople interested in ethics, it really shows you how important it is to do the right thing, because when you do the wrong thing, it gets really bad in really devastating ways for all of those around you.

John Coleman: That’s good. I am also a lover of Ted Lasso, but now I’ve got a great recommendation for the morning show. I’m going to hit one last one, which I expect Henry Kaestner to answer as well, because I know Henry has a classic interest in this subject. Who’s your favorite musician of all time, and why should a person of faith love that musician as much as you do?

Henry Kaestner: That’s great.

Craig Deitweller: The Boss, Bruce Springsteen. I’m that guy. I’m that old guy. I saw him probably when I was, you know, 16, 17 for the first time and fell in love. And, I don’t know, working class songs meant something to me. I was a working class kid, and he gave me a sense of hope that you can maybe get in that car and get to the other side. And so going from North Carolina to Hollywood, that’s a big, big, long drive. But I think the Bruce Springsteen gave me a little bit of courage to hang out on that Thunder Road.

Henry Kaestner: Get a wife and kids in Baltimore. Jack, I grew up in Baltimore, so I always got me. But man, born to run, there’s no better pump up song for me ever.

John Coleman: Well, talk about a musician who’s a storyteller, right? Those songs really tell the story of working class America. You’re right. All right, Ben and Henry, what do you think?

Ben Howard: You know, I mean, I’m The Avett Brothers through and through who come from Henry’s territory. If you’re from North Carolina, these guys sing of truth and of love and of pain and vulnerability. And I love The Avett Brothers.

Henry Kaestner: All right. You’ve blessed us with that. I don’t know The Avett Brothers. I’ve heard it. Well, I’ve heard of them. I can’t tell you name of song, but I’m going to go to that. I’ve got two for our audience real quickly. One is U2. I actually sponsored the first ever academic conference on the Christianity of U2 lyrics. It happened at North Carolina Central University way back in the day and was fascinating just to hear about their spirituality, where the streets have no name, of course, is talking about heaven. Still haven’t found what I’m looking for. Just a great seeking type of song. There’s so much there and the Christianity of their lyrics and I love that. But one of the things I’ve done recently is I’ve gone back since. I like a lot of secular music too. I’ve started to borrow some of the greats from the 1970s, which is I’m a child of seventies and adopted them as my own, as praise and worship music, whether they are praise and worship or not. And an example of that, which I encourage our listeners to check out, is Ain’t Nobody by Chaka Khan, Ain’t Nobody Loves Me Better.

Craig Deitweller: Right.

Henry Kaestner: And I envision that is a praise and worship song. It may. Or may not have been designed that way, but that’s what I would leave our audience with. John. I want to turn the tables back to you. Give us one.

John Coleman: Oh, gosh. I didn’t know y’all were going to turn it on me. There are so many out there I’d almost have to go by genre, but for the same reasons you highlighted with Springsteen, I think guys like Johnny Cash are really interesting just telling the story of America and how you build from that. So I’ll stop with that one for now. But there are too many to name for me.

Henry Kaestner: Well, okay, so now we’re closing this off and I’m getting some great comments in from our producers here that and we could go on and on about some great music acts. We’re going to do that for the next segment. This has been awesome. I can’t wait to have you guys back on the program. We are going to close out as we do every one of our episodes and ask you what each of you are hearing through God in his word.

Ben Howard: Yeah, I’ll jump in. That one was immediately came to mind for me and I’m continually reminded that we’re not alone. And I don’t just think God’s presence, but we have a cloud of witnesses, we have a body, we have others around us, and we don’t have to do this by ourselves. And I am so thankful for that.

Henry Kaestner: Amen.

Craig Deitweller: I’ve been struck reading about the parable of the four soils, if you will, the seed. And I think about it for entrepreneurs. I think about it for pastors. The fact that Jesus basically said, hey, if you got a 250 batting average, that’s biblical. That’s like all time. Like one out of four is about as much as you can hope for. And so for investors, it’s like you might have been burned and for pastors, you might have said, why did those people walk away? But that’s just that’s the biblical average. And so we shouldn’t be surprised if 75% of our our efforts feel like they were wasted and got choked out and didn’t manifest in the way we hoped. But that 25% is can be pretty beautiful.

Henry Kaestner: I think you’re very, very right. I thought you were going to the parable of the sowers there too? And I’m going to just leave this as an encouragement to our audience on the Faith Driven Investor podcast and the parable of sowers. Of course, if you listen this podcast the odds you haven’t had your faith snatched away by being scorched or by birds coming in and get, so you’re likely have gone through that. But mine and John’s encouragement and along with Ben and Craig, I’ll presume, is that we might be able to soldier through the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of riches to get to that type of faith driven investment return of 160 or 30 fold. And that’s what this podcast is all about. So as you know of folks that you think might be encouraged by episodes like today, give us some feedback, too, and say, listen, if you ever do that whole thing where you ask people about their favorite music acts again, I’ll never listen again. Or if you think that was great and you’ve got some other suggestions on things, we might ask our guests, let us know. And please just take this to your communities. Whether it’s a Faith Driven Investor group, whether it’s a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, a group that you might launch with your church, there’s never any cost, there’s no catch, there’s no upsell. Here we are a ministry and we get fired up about telling stories like Ben and Craig’s. Thank you for listening in. Ben Craig, thank you very much for being with us.

Craig Deitweller: Thank you, Henry.

Luke Roush: Welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I am Luke Roush and I’m here with Phil Cunningham and Andrew Firman as my co-host. So we’re going to hear from Phil in a second. But before we do that, I’d love to turn it over. Andrew Furman joining us from Texas, but with particular responsibilities and focus in the part of the world where Phil operates. So, Andrew, would you just mind introducing yourself and where you come from, what you’re doing here?

Andrew Firman: Of course. Yeah. And I appreciate that. Luke, really excited to be with you guys today. So I’m a principal here at Sovereign’s Capital and a lot of the work that I do is actually based around very early stage venture capital with a very strong focus in sub-Saharan Africa. So I am very excited about the podcast today and also just as a whole really seeing the work that God is doing through Faith driven entrepreneurs across the continent of Africa. It’s been incredibly encouraging and I think we all get excited about what that vision could look like in three, five, ten, 15 years as these faith driven entrepreneurs keep doing the work that God’s called them too. So it’s a really exciting season, we think, for Africa. And Phil, I think that’s one of the reasons why we’re so excited to have you on today.

Phil Cunningham: Thank you.

Luke Roush: Yeah. Phil, welcome to the FDI Podcast. We love to start out just with a quick overview of who you are, how you ended up here. So if you wouldn’t mind, just maybe take us through a brief biography of your background.

Phil Cunningham: Great and firstly, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. It’s really great to be with you guys. It’s awesome all the way from Africa. So quick biography. I was born in Zimbabwe and I was, to be honest, so lucky where I was born. It was my family were incredible. My parents were incredible. I grew up in the great outdoors. There’s one place close to where I lived where you could canoe for five days and four nights and you wouldn’t see a human being. It was just elephant, buffalo, lion, and it was in those great outdoors that I grew up and connected with God. That’s where I fell in love with God and God’s personality, just that massive vista. And it fell in love with his adventurous spirit and just who he is. So there was incredible thing to grow up there. And I’ve always loved storytelling even as a as a boy growing up, I just love campfire stories. And every weekend I’ll just fluff stories in my notebook and tell stories. But that’s that was my foundation. And where I grew up was in Zimbabwe and just really connected with God there, went to university, studied agriculture because that’s what everyone in our family did do you in the agricultural industry. Then I started my own agricultural business after that, which really took off and was doing well. But in brief, I couldn’t shake this incredible passion to tell stories. And also I was very cognizant of the university watching movies, of the power of stories to move people’s hearts and really change people. So the long story short, I shut down my agricultural business, moved from Zimbabwe to Cape Town, and we started an animation studio just over 20 years ago now. Yeah.

Luke Roush: And tell us just about maybe just the origin story of I think your wife played a role in encouraging you to move towards telling stories, maybe just a couple of highlights as to how that began. And was it easy from the beginning or was actually a difficult?

Phil Cunningham: That’s a great question. So the agricultural business was going super well, but since, as I was saying, since a boy had this passion to tell stories and to quickly rewind, when I was at university, I was really struck by the power of movies and how they were impacting society. They’ve got this Trojan horse effects, these stories have this Trojan horse effect, particularly stories told through movies. And they’ve got this power to get in people’s defense mechanisms and plant a seed for good or bad. So I couldn’t shake. That’s what I was noticing in stories. But I started an agricultural business then. My wife she is an amazing person, very brave, she says. Phil, I can see your passion is storytelling. You should really follow your dream and go into the movie business. And I can remember telling my one friend in Zimbabwe, This is what I want to do, he said. Phil that’s like saying you’re going to start a Ferrari factory in your backyard. You know, the day you make one scene out of that, I’ll eat my hats. But I also read a saying that says an eagle chases two rabbits. Both will get away. So shut down agricultural business. And we focused 100% in film which to be honest was really tough at first because what I hadn’t realized was the incredible power of relationship in business and in the agricultural sector. We had this amazing network of relationships. So what was really hard are stepping into an industry that I hadn’t been trained in, I knew nothing about, and I had no relational network at all. And I think that was the biggest challenge. And what was hardest in getting started was just trying to build those relationships and connect and understand how the industry worked. I can remember going to my first film festival in Berlin and I was just watching all these people. They look so busy, they all look like they knew what they were doing. And I was just watching all this busyness and wondering how on earth does this industry actually work? But yeah, the hard part was really rebuilding credibility and relationships in totally brand new industry. Yeah.

Andrew Firman: Well, Phil, one of the things I love you said just a minute or two ago is, you know, good or bad movies plant a seed. I’d love to pivot over to David for a second. Just what you’re working on now. When you think about David as a film, what sort of responsibility do you feel when it comes to making movies. So in other words, how can you be honest about the telling of this story and be able to link that to a bigger message of hope?

Phil Cunningham: Oh, well, that’s such an awesome question, and I’ll try to keep the answer brief because I could talk for days about that. But very briefly, in terms of the what are you going to do from a storyteller’s point of view? I just want to say we’ve gone super deep in our research, so we’ve done five trips to Israel. We are really going deep into making an authentic film that really comes with a foundation of deep research, deep accuracy. We’ve connected with people in the Jewish communities. We really want the foundations of those films to come from an authentic place. The heart of the film goes right back to what I was saying when I was canoeing down the Zambezi River. We all bumped into God, if I can say that, and was struck by his incredible personality. At the same time I was reading in the Book of Acts, I found in David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart. And so I was like, Wow, if we could tell a story on David’s life, it potentially could give people a glimpse into God’s hearts. Well, of course, David was an imperfect person like all of us. But what I can see in his heart was this musical heart, his humility, this adventurous heart, this incredible leadership heart, shepherd hearts. And it felt like if we could tell a story on David, it could really perhaps give people a glimpse into God’s heart. So but there’s a huge responsibility in this in three things. One is you can’t be preachy. So the project has to be the movie has to be super entertaining. It must entertain and really grab people. It must be authentic. So it must be based on what really happened and things that were going on in his time and the architecture of his time, the clothing of his time, for example. But at its heart, it must also deliver in showing God’s heart, which is the intersection of all three of those, I think is the responsibility of making a movie like this. Yeah.

Andrew Firman: I love that Phil. What resonates with me a lot about your story when you shared your background is the fact that you didn’t start off in film. As I said, you know, there’s that pivot from agriculture over to film. So as you’ve been in this for a while and even as you work on David and you mentioned, you know, the importance of doing all these things and excellence, having an engaging story, what do you think it is about the film medium that makes it so powerful?

Phil Cunningham: Yeah, that’s an amazing question. And quickly rewind and I’ll answer that question as well. But as part of your question, just to quickly say about making films of excellence and quality, recently we just went to the […] Film Festival and we stopped by Paris and with my wife and kids, we walked from Arc de Triomphe to Eiffel Tower to the Louver. And as a filmmaker and as a creator, I was like, Wow, if you look at the creators of those centuries, the scale at which they dreamed, the detail that they put into the architecture was mindblowing. And we were just saying, as filmmakers, we can make blocks of offices, blocks of flats and turn money and make money, or we can really try and make projects are going to stand the test of time. And I would say it’s not just human time, but but eternity as well. So we always felt like that, but it was really inspiring us walking on Paris just to say we want to make projects that are going to count, but that takes incredible patience, incredible dedication and a lot of hard work as well to get it there. But I think going back to your final part of your question, what makes movies so powerful? So stories are powerful in any form? I think the thing about movies that are hitting people go in with an open heart. Typically they are relaxed, they’re watching, it’s visual. So you’ve got sound and you’ve got visual and you’ve got dialog. When you’re reading a book, it’s also powerful. But movies are particularly powerful because it’s hitting more of your senses than just dialog. It’s everything coming at you and you can get lost in the story, and that’s what actually causes you to drop your defense mechanism. Cause you so engaged in the story, you don’t realize what’s coming past you for good or bad, actually. Yeah.

Luke Roush: Well, I’ll tell you in that for good or bad is a great illustration of how media, you know, has affected people. And I think it’s important to be aware, actually, the power that film in particular has to move our emotions in a positive direction that would be aligned with our values or potentially in the other direction. And one of the things that I as you were talking about, the Arc de Triomphe and Notre Dame and other things that you saw in your travel, I don’t know how the Arc de Triomphe was funded, but I’m pretty sure that Notre Dame was funded in the same manner that David was funded. So maybe just talk a little bit about why you went down the crowdfunding route.

Phil Cunningham: Yeah. And linked to that, which I didn’t know till recently, the Statue of Liberty was funded through crowdfunding, so the guy and he built the hand with the torch and then took that in built a booth around it and from that crowdfunded the rest of the Statue of Liberty, which is such a fascinating story, because what it stands for, the Statue of Liberty and how they built it was through crowdfunding.

Luke Roush: Which is more powerful. Way more powerful.

Phil Cunningham: So why crowdfunding? There’s so many reasons. And not that every project suits crowdfunding. I’ll say that’s like and we can get back to the question later. But one thing the power of crowdfunding for me is the power of community. So if you look at a project like The Chosen, which was crowdfunded and you look at the incredible impact it’s having globally and not just in the US but right around the globe. What’s driving the engine? Driving the chosen is. The power of community. And so I saw that. The other thing as a creator, when you’re working with a lot of big studios, creative leadership or control is a big thing. And at the end of the day, whoever’s financing the project is actually in creative control. So the beauty of crowdfunding as a creator is if the crowd get behind you there are entrusting you to hold on to that light or to the steering wheel and stay in creative control. So there’s two massive wins for me with the crowdfunding. One is you’re building a community, so you’ve got this in-built engine when you’re getting to market the film and actually distribute it. You’ve already got this both community that are behind you by speaking on the film’s behalf and then promoting the film, and they’re going to pitch up and support you. But the biggest thing for me, and I’m really like David in particular, is in a world where there’s a lot of complexity and people are trying to grab control of creative projects, you retain creative control of the project, which is absolutely critical for me for a movie like David. Yeah.

Luke Roush: Well, in the podcast that you did with Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa, you know, talk about this, we talk about this a lot on the Faith Driven Investor podcast, but in the work that we do, excellence matters, and that may be even more true in filmmaking. So maybe just speak a little bit about how that axiom influences your work and how you go about your work. Just time and attention on details. Love to have you to speak to excellence in your craft.

Phil Cunningham: I love that. To answer that question, I think one of the best things I can say, I’ve just finished reading a book called Atomic Habits, and it’s incredible book because it talks about the aggregation of marginal gains. And if I can quickly pull one excerpt from the book, it talks about the British cycling team and on 100 years that only won one Olympic gold medal. Then the new coach took over and he was a big advocate of the aggregation of marginal gains. And in the ten year period, we took over. They won 66 Olympic medals. They’d never won the Tour de France. They won it three times. But when they practiced, they went down to incredible detail. So like, for example, he got a surgeon to show the cyclist how to wash their hands. So they didn’t get germs. They took the pillows that the cyclist slept with at home and made sure that the exact same pillows when they were touring inside of the bus, they had like painted in wax because any dust in the cog, too, slows you down. And he just went through all the micro details, and I really believe in that. And I was talking to my son, who loved sport the other day, and we were just discussing how to become one of the best in sport. Aggregation of marginal gains is no different in movie making. It’s no different in business. You can’t sit on the couch as a sportsman eating pies and say, Oh, well, because because I’m a Christian, somehow I’m going to just become a great American footballer. You’ve got to do as many press ups, you’ve got to do as many pushups and train as hard if you want to get to that level of excellence. So of course we’ll get to the spirit of the film. But in terms of just the excellence of the craft of filmmaking, I’m super passionate about quality. There’s a lot that goes into quality, as we know. And I’ll say one more thing on quality, but I think one of the biggest factors is the aggregation of marginal gains. The other thing I can say, which maybe my wife would say is not the hardest thing, is but always employ people smarter than yourself. I read that in in Michael Dells biography where he said that’s how he grew. Dell was just always looking for and working with people smarter than himself. And so I’m a huge believer finding people who are brilliant in their specific field, in animation, which is the industry we’re in and just going after the best of the best and always reaching for that. So that because they just pull your curve up as well. Yeah.

Andrew Firman: Phil, you know, again, I really just love seeing this journey that God had you on and how it’s just provided in so many different areas. And one of the things that really resonates with me is in a wonderful way how different this is from a lot of the normal films we see that are funded by Hollywood, produced in Hollywood. So as you know, Luke asked you, this is crowdfunded, which I love, but also David is being produced in Africa and not some animation studio in Hollywood. Why is that? We’d love for you to just talk about that for a few minutes.

Phil Cunningham: So I think the God reasons is that because God uses the weak and foolish things of the world to shame the wise. But on a serious note, I think often when you start on another journey, God is like making you live the storytelling often. So for example, David fought Goliath. He went against Goliath with a slingshot and a stone. And I think that’s why I feel in this movie, genuinely, God is using a studio in Africa. The one thing is that I feel we’re coming from a place that is super original and is not derivative. So one of the challenges actually sitting in Hollywood, they’ve lots of amazing things going for them. So I’m not trying to knock what’s happening in Hollywood, but what I would say, what are the challenges? So much of the story content in the way it’s been created is very derivative because we are so far removed from that circle. I think a lot of what’s coming out of Africa is originality, if I can say that. The other thing I’d say with there’s a Neil Diamond song that says money talks, but it can’t sing, it can’t dance, it can’t walk. So when I talk about originality, I’m talking about the spirit in a movie. Money can achieve certain things, but creativity is way more than just budgets to bring in, infuse something of beauty into creativity comes from a much deeper place. And I feel Africa, if I can just say, is a country of contrasts. And it’s just got so much energy and so much contrast that it births creativity. If you look at the African elephants, it’s the biggest elephant, it’s the most aggressive. If you look at the African bee, it’s the most aggressive bee in the world. And I think I was talking on the one podcast that this comes back to your question, by the way, when you live in Africa, it’s like fighting a cobra. It’s a clear and present danger. Sometimes when you live in the first world, it’s like fighting a python. One day you wake up and you slowly had the life suffocated out of you. So what I would say is fighting that cobra does spark an energy and a creativity and yes, waffling a little bit. But just to get back to your points, I feel it’s a bit of a David versus Goliath story, and that’s why God is birthing this movie out of the tip of Africa.

Andrew Firman: Again Phil. Just seeing how God is providing all these areas I think is just so encouraging. And that’s one of the reasons why Luke and I love these podcasts is we get to hear, yes stories of what investors and entrepreneurs are doing, but also where God is in that whole process. So as I hear you talk, as I think about, you know, your career pivot, everything you’re doing in a unique way with David, I’ve got to think, man, if I were in that situation, I would have these moments where I think, Lord, I’ve got this vision for your kingdom, what I want to do, how can I pull it off? Where am I going to find funding? How am I going to do this locally and not in Hollywood? I would love to just hear from you. How have you seen God provide throughout this journey that you’ve been on?

Phil Cunningham: Yeah. No, that’s great. Thank you. The one thing I would say quickly, which is very related to this question, is I’d say the word perspective. So I’m going to give two reasons why I say that and how it helps us through this journey. That’s impossible. And the one thing obviously we know often, God, we live by faith, not by sight. So often, God sets us off on a journey where you have to live and work by faith, which I think that’s in so many of our experiences. But there’s two quick things I want to say that for me have helped me on the journey. The one is next, our studio. If you walked down the beach, there’s a four kilometer beach. And as you walk and you pick up one grain of sand and you put it on the tip of your finger, and let’s say that represents 70 years. And then you look at that beach and the whole beach is trillions of 70 years. That’s eternity. And it’s getting perspective like saying, okay, what I’m doing, this is just one grain of sand, but it’s for eternity. And I think that helps keep perspective. So you don’t get bogged down and think it’s all about this life and what I’m doing and it actually frees you have to live bigger and to live with more faith, if I can say that. The other cool thing, I read this poem about a little boy who, you know, we often go to the beach when we little and we build sand castles without dads or moms, and we build the sand castles to fight the tide. But we know in the end that’s a great game, but in the end, the tide always wins. And the other thing I’d say about building businesses is like the Roman Empire eventually fell, the Greek empire fell. When we build businesses, they actually like sand castles. They’re actually a context for us to get to know our Dad or our Father. So to hold them lightly in one sense, have a lot of fun, build them as best you can, built in big put in feathers, put on shells, and really go for the sand castle. But actually the sand castles, all of context to get to know your father and your dad. And in a day when the tides of time will actually flatten your business empire, you run back into the cottage and you have hot chocolate with your dad. And so as we build something, I think the thing to keep your eyes on is like the biggest thing is my relationship with God. And that’s what’s amazing what I’m building the sand castle. So having said that, very quickly, trying to make movies out of Africa is super impossible in inverted commas. It seems so at the time. And I just take so much of what David and his songs and what I love about David is his childlike faith and when he approached God. So for me, I took so much out of that. When I’m praying and talking to God, you know that verse which says unless we approach God like little children. I feel like David just would run, jump on God’s lap and just pour out his hearts and his songs if you read it. So on our journey, just to answer your question, Andrew, I think just learn to be more honest and more childlike in conversation with God as we progress and realize He is with us. He’s our daddy. He’s step by step on the journey with us. And we have seen miracles actually, as we walk that even when our faith is down and even when we haven’t had faith, he is he has been faithful and really kept us on the journey. Yeah.

Luke Roush: That’s powerful, powerful testimony. And I appreciate you sharing it. Phil, I think it’s encouragement to many of our listeners who may not be on the other side of that challenge yet and are looking for just encouragement to keep going. So I appreciate you sharing on that. I want to go back to one of the analogies. I’m a big fan of analogies, as my colleagues can attest to. I want to go back to the snake analogy because it’s one of my favorite analogies it’s ever been used on the podcast. But you know, as you’re talking about sort of the cobra and sort of tactical, hand-to-hand known danger and focus that that produces as opposed to, you know, the python. Or, you know, I would also compare that to the frog in the pot of boiling water, kind of one degree at a time. It strikes me that actually as a filmmaker in Africa, you really face both because you’re still in the world where sort of the python is the primary adversary, but you’re doing it in a market. And so maybe to speak a little bit too tactically, how do you try to maintain sort of salt and light in your work? What are the tactics that you use when fighting the cobra versus fighting the python? And maybe just compare and contrast riff on that for a little bit, if you wouldn’t mind.

Phil Cunningham: No, no, of course. The first thing I quickly say that’s such a great question and I hadn’t actually thought of it, you are right, because we kind of living and producing and creating in Africa. But a lot of our distribution world is the first world when it comes because this is a global film that you’re talking about. So the one thing that I’d love to go back to is how impossible that is. And as people, it’s good to realize how impossible something is because it puts your faith straight back where it should be, which is on God. And for me, there’s an incredible versatility that does not depend on man’s desire, effort, but in God’s mercy. So my hope is in God’s mercy and carry us through this. He is actually the one leading this and he’s the shepherd. And, you know, talking about David, just because we’ve studied so much. If a shepherd came back and one sheep was missing or two sheep were missing, no one said, Oh, stupid sheep. They were like, bad shepherd. So the one thing I’ve got, faith, is like, God, he says he’s the author and perfector of our faith. So I know. And for me, on this movie birth journey, he started it. And so I know he will finish it. And actually, I know how impossible what you’ve just talked about to navigate that. If I think I can do it on my own, I think that’s my first mistake. It’s like he is going to walk me through it. And and the other thing is we definitely going to make some missteps on the way and we’re going to make some mistakes. But what I’ve learned along the way is just to trust God’s kindness and is leading through it all, and that ultimately He’s the one who’s kind of actually pulling us towards him. And yeah, but to get to the practical side of that, it is a challenge, but you learn to. I think there’s a great book by Scott Peck, which he starts off it’s called The Road Less Traveled, and he starts off by saying Life is difficult and it sounds morbid, but it’s not at all. It’s when as an entrepreneur, whether you live in Africa or in the first world, when you realize life is difficult. So don’t shy away from that embraces it because and it’s how you deal with difficulty is going to differentiate what you’re doing. So the cobra the python as we try and make a movie in Africa. Yes, it’s absolutely going to be difficult. That’s the fun we’ve been given is to surf that wave. And, you know, it’s not easy to surf waves. You’ve got to fall over and you got to get up and you’ve got to surf again. And I’ll say one last thing from Winston Churchill, which is he says Success is going from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm. So as we go on this journey, I’d say that’s a key to navigating this whole thing is just perseverance. Keep failing, keep going, keep failing, keep going. Yeah.

Andrew Firman: I love that Phil. I think it’s a really good quote. I think a really good way to just see again how God’s working. One of the things I’d love for you to kind of dream with me on for a second. I know a lot of our questions have been about the here and now and what’s going on in the present. But as we think, you know, as I said, five, ten years down the road, what excites me when I think about Africa and why I love investing in Africa is you get this vision of these companies that may not have massive change in their cities tomorrow, but if we can fund the right ones, we really think that this can shape culture in a wonderful way. As we go a few years down the road, what excites you specifically about how the media space can impact Africa? I know that for all of us we could talk about the shows or movies we watched as we were younger and how that impacted us. I’d love for you to just dream a second. If we, as Faith Driven Investors understand this and finance the right movies, what happens? What’s your dream here?

Phil Cunningham: Yeah. So I think Africa and globally, but I’m going to focus on Africa, because that was your question. So the thing about stories is that they move hearts. So if it’s a sermon or if it’s an academic piece of literature or dialog, it can only take you so far. And to answer about Africa, what I’ll say very quickly, I want to pull from a story in David just riff of it. So it’s the story of David with his mighty men when they went to draw water for him from the well in Bethlehem. And what’s amazing about that, he was thirsty. He didn’t ask them, but they went, fought their way through a philistine garrison, drew him water and brought him back water. Now, what struck me about that story is how much they must have loved David, because to do an act like that for someone, you’ve really got to love him. What had he done for them? And just to say, I think that’s a lot of about God’s heart for us when he captures our heart like that, David quote, does mighty man’s heart. They did anything for David, but it wasn’t through religion. It wasn’t through because they were commanded. It was out of love. So what I feel as I look at the people of Africa, there’s this incredible uprising of people whose hearts are ready to respond. And media is such a powerful way to move people’s hearts and connect them with God. And that’s why I feel we can have a massive impact on Africa. People who are. Yeah, maybe struggling. Because there’s a lot of difficulty, but that also makes you more open to what God is doing and saying actually, because you realize you’re looking for something, you’re more acutely aware of your needs. And that’s why I think stories can actually move people in the right direction. If I can say that in Africa. Yeah.

Luke Roush: I want to go ahead and move us into a part of our podcast called The Lightning Round. And these are intended to be a quick series of questions, kind of 30 to 60 seconds max. And it’s a way to cover a bunch of ground in a short amount of time. Some of them are fun. Some of them are serious. So I’m going to go ahead and kick off and then I’ll have Andrew take the second one or just kind of go back and forth with you. Pepper, Phil so appreciate your good humor on this. So I’ll start off as a filmmaker. What is your favorite movie to watch and why?

Phil Cunningham: Okay. Well, that’s a good question, but I’ll have to jump to Gladiator. And I love it because it’s the story is basically the amazing rule in filmmaking or storytelling. Your hero is only as big as the villain or the obstacle that faces the villain. I mean, the hero. So what I love about Gladiator, the villain and the obstacle he faces is massive. But he overcomes it and also is not just overcoming for his own good, it’s overcoming it for everyone’s good, for the good of the society he lived in. So I just love that story because the story of courage, of perseverance, of losing your life for the good of others, and overcoming a massive obstacle struggle villain. Yes I love gladiator is just a and also it’s epics are going back to Paris and my love of doing things in an epic way. It’s an epic film and that’s why I love it.

Andrew Firman: That’s great. That’s great Phil. Going to you for a second. What’s been your favorite project that you’ve been able to work on?

Phil Cunningham: So without question, David. We’re still working on it. We worked on a lot of projects, but David has been in my heart for 20 years. And why I love him, I quickly want to just give one aspect. And this too. There’s so many reasons why it’s my favorite project, but one I’ll quickly want to say. We know he’s an incredible musician and so he wrote half the songs in the Bible, as we know. And I’m saying if they can make a musical The Greatest Showman and P.T. Barnum’s life. Imagine the musical element. We should have on our David’s movie. So one of the reasons I’m loving working on David is just the authentic music thread that can really flow through his story. And then, of course, I love adventure and his life is super adventurous. So and it points towards God’s heart. So I could not think of a more exciting project to be on than David’s. Yeah.

Andrew Firman: That’s great. And, you know, Phil, going back to the crowdfunding for a second, from your perspective as a filmmaker, what do you think that relationship between the filmmaker and the investor should look like?

Phil Cunningham: Okay, that’s a great question. And I think like all investment relationships, it all goes down to relationship, relationship, relationship, which goes down a lot of it to communication, communication, communication. So I think what’s really important for filmmakers, whether you’re talking about the crowd or just bigger singular investors, is to be super clear upfront, like what the film industry is, what it entails, what the risks are, and actually really try and under-promise so that you can over deliver so clear, clear communication upfront. And I’ll give you one example and it is really there’s really a good investment in the film industry. So what I’m saying next doesn’t take away from that. But I can remember my mum telling me about Hudson Taylor as a missionary and all the other missionary societies when they’re talking about China was saying, we”ll, take care of your kids school fees and medical aid. And his battlecry was, I promise you, death, I promise you malaria, but I promise you a chance to preach the gospel. And his missionary society grew strong. So I think one thing with filmmakers is to be super clear upfront with the crowd, what they’re getting into, what the risks are. And of course, there’s huge upsides potentially, but you just need to be and then on the journey is to be really communicating because we know life has the good, the bad and the ugly. So it’s not to try and just feed like what you hope is good to investors is to be super truthful, super transparent. And I think that builds trust and an especially a short answer. But I’ll say one more quick thing. I heard a great saying that says integrity is in what you think, what you say and what you do all three liner. And I think if there’s integrity between filmmakers and investors, that’s what’s going to drive a super healthy relationship and get you through tough times because there’s always going to be ups and downs in any business journey.

Luke Roush: So I want around just how filmmakers might think more globally when making films. I think there are a couple of markets globally that tend to sort of make films in their own image or for the image of the prevailing culture where they operate. And how can filmmakers think differently?

Phil Cunningham: Yeah, I love that question and if I can quickly break away towards animation and as an aspect of that. So talking to animation really specifically, but I’ll come back to a broader comment. So animation has its parts across race, cultural, age and gender barriers better than any other medium. If you look at animated feature films, there’s maybe a thousand live action films made a year and maybe 15 animated feature films. But if you look in the box office, you’ve always find three or four animated feature films in the top ten, which just show you it’s a power to get around the globe. So animation is particularly important, you think globally because of the cost of making animation. It is super expensive. It’s more like fruit farming says, more like an apple orchard. It’s expensive and it’s got a long business cycle. So with an apple orchard, you’ve got to water and fertilize an apple tree for five years and if you stop at any time, you’re not going to get apples. If you carry on, you’ll get apples and then you’ll get apples for 20 years. So the animation industry that’s got an incredibly long tale, but as a filmmaking animation sector, you’ve definitely got to think globally. I’m just talking purely business wise now because the cost of producing it, you will not recoup it. Even in the States, which is the biggest domestic markets, you still need to think globally to really recoup businesswise from an animated feature film. What I love about animation from a guideed storytelling point of view is it’s going to get around the globe nationally if you do it right from a live action point of view. I think it’s really important to think globally as well. There is definitely room for local content without question, because some local content really has a connection that a global piece of work content. So I think there’s definitely space for both. But as a filmmaker, the themes of storytelling, I feel if you get those rights, your story will translate globally. And in my heart is for global stories because I really would love people sitting in China, in Asia, in South America to all be benefiting from a story and not just one small market. Yeah.

Luke Roush: And just in terms of, you know, we know film financing can be complex for investors. How do you think about films as an investment class? And just what counsel would you give to investors who are listening to this podcast and wondering, Gosh, does the Lord want me to do something in this area with the wealth that He’s entrusted to me?

Phil Cunningham: Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, the first thing I’d say, like in any industry, there’s going to be good investment and bad investment. So I’ll come back to the industry as a whole. But what I’d say trumps the industry you’re looking at investing into is who you’re investing into. This is my perspective on investing. Let’s take Steve Jobs, for example. We know what he did in Apple and when he got involved in Pixar. We know what happened with Pixar as an animated company. It just really boomed. So if you investing in Apple or Pixar, actually, you are investing in Steve Jobs and his vision and who he was and what he was doing. And Michael Dell, for example, if he hadn’t been successful in computers, I’m sure whatever you’ve got and he would have been successful end. So I think as an investor, the first thing is to stop and look at who are you investing in and what is your faith in them to actually deliver in the film industry. Then the film industry as a whole is an incredible industry in the sense of it is higher risk than most industries. But in the upside, which we know that investment, it’s also got potentially much higher return as well. So I think if you walk in with your eyes open, understanding the risks and understanding what you’re getting into, there are some incredible investment opportunities in the film industry. I’m talking purely financially, never mind impact investment. But yeah, so the industry is, I would say as a general comment, it’s higher risk, higher return as a general comments. But certainly it’s like putting your money into a slot machine and hoping it comes out the other side. It’s not that wild or that risky. Yeah.

Luke Roush: Thanks for that answer Phil.

Andrew Firman: Well Phil. It really has been just wonderful having you with us today and hearing what you’re working on, hearing how God’s work in your life. And we really like to close each episode by turning it over to you for a second and just hearing what you feel like God’s teaching you right now. What have you found in God’s Word that stuck out to you recently? What’s an aspect of God’s character that you meditating on would just love to hear a little bit from you before we close out.

Phil Cunningham: Thank you so much. I think the thing I would like to share is actually just looking at David’s life, Joseph’s life and Moses’ life. There was a dream, there was an anointing and there was a calling. And each of those were followed by really difficult times. So Joseph had this amazing dream, and then he was sold into slavery and into prison, and then eventually his dreams actually were fulfilled. Moses had this amazing calling to free his people. He trusted his own strength. It goes south, and then he’s in the desert for 40 years, you know, David is anointed as king, and then he ends up in the wilderness for seven years. And I was just processing that with God and saying, you know, what is going on? And that and the thing that I got out of it, which I have experienced in my own life and I really like to encourage, particularly as anyone younger listening, if God has given you a dream, and anointing or calling and then you had a desert period or a difficult period, what’s going on there? I think is it God is it’s the circumcision of your heart. So it’s not a God. God will follow through on that dream with that anointing, but pure gold comes out of like a really hot furnace, and God and his kindness is going through the circumcision of the heart, like really going deep with humility. And so I found it on my 20 year journey. I started off with a very clear sense of calling and anointing in the film industry and in some really difficult times reaching the stage in my life and really thankful for those difficult times because I realized God has worked deep and in His kindness. He’s actually been circumcising my heart so that I’m in it for the right reasons at a deep level. And I’ll just say the film industry, particularly Andreas, got a challenge because it’s got fame and fortune in it. And that’s quite a lethal combination for people, the pride of life, because a lot of people get caught up just with loving money and that’s went out of business. But in the movie industry and in the arts, you often are getting this incredibly lethal combination of fame and fortune. So if people are starting on this industry, God is going to definitely have to work in your hearts to just make sure your foundations are good, and that’s going to come through hard times. And so that’s one thing I’ve been just processing and linked to that as John 6:29, which ultimately what is our work? The disciples asking Jesus, what is the work of God? And He says, The work of God is us to believe in the one he sent. And I really feel God saying to me, Phil, that’s your work is to believe in me as your good shepherd, as your provider, as your guide that’s actually your work. And coming out of my 20 years, I’m like, okay, that’s amazingly fun and that yoke is easy and that burden is light to believe in somebody who’s so awesome and also so powerful at the same time. Yeah.

Luke Roush: Phil, that’s a great word for our audience and we are grateful for you bestowing a lot of wisdom on us today. So. Eagles, two rabbits, cobras, pythons, the David Musical. And then just the refiners fire. And how Lord uses adversity to be able to harden our resolve and to prepare us for the mission that he has us on. Thank you for taking time with us today. We are grateful for you and Andrew. Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to our co-host here. Grateful to be with you. Thank Phil

Phil Cunningham: Thank you so much. And really, really appreciate you guys having me on the podcast. Thank you so much. It’s a privilege.

John Coleman: This is John Coleman and welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. We’re recording this just one day after the Faith Driven Investor conference this year. It was an incredible time. I know much of the content will become available over the coming days and weeks, and so we’d encourage you to dig in. And it was an encouragement to me, as always, just about the variety of different faith driven investing trends that are going on around the world. Hearing from our global colleagues in places like Africa was amazing and it was a really restorative time, so I’d encourage folks to dig in and catch up on some of that content, if you can, in the broader markets. It’s been it’s been a pretty wild time. We thought we had some volatility dampening and that normalcy might be returning. And instead, the last few weeks have been extraordinarily volatile in markets with a number of different topics breaking. Fortunately, as always, for our Marks on the Market series, we have a few very smart investors who are going to come talk us through that volatility, talk us through what they’re seeing in markets and offer perspectives on how we might navigate those markets. Well, first joining us is Benji Bailey. Benji is the vice president of investments and senior fixed income manager for Praxis Mutual Funds. And Everence Financial, he’s been in the business for 20 years or so, managing fixed income instruments, etc., and is just an extraordinary guy on those topics. Brian McClard is the director of investments and head of the Investment Strategies Group at Ronald Blue Trust Company, which obviously manages a variety of different institutional and retail clients. And Brian is in markets every day thinking about a variety of asset classes and brings a great perspective. And then we have Justin Speer, who’s a principal and senior analyst with Sovereign’s Capital, helping to lead the public equities team at sovereigns, having just recently developed the first public equities fund there. So gentlemen, thanks so much for coming today and talking to us through this.

Brian McClard: Pleasure to be here.

John Coleman: Benji, I’m going to start with you. Just to put you on the hot seat. You live in the fixed income markets, obviously, in addition to other markets. And one of the big pieces of information over the last couple of weeks was the recent Fed’s meeting and Fed’s announcements. What did you think of the most recent Federal Reserve announcement and interest rate increases? And what do you think the impact is going to continue to be on financial markets?

Benjamin Bailey: Yeah, so the Federal Reserve has a mandate. Some people call it a dual mandate. It’s really three things. One is maximum employment, the other stable prices, and then moderate long term interest rates. And at this point, though, they’re kind of viewing their entire goal, get inflation in check and they pretty much have nothing else in their mind. I kind of think of it. It’s kind of like a young kid or actually really me that likes to order ice cream and doesn’t really think about anything else whatsoever until they get that ice cream cone. That’s kind of where they’re at this point. But they seem to be using the playbook that they’ve had back from the eighties. They don’t have lots of different things that they can do, but they do have the Fed funds increases or they have decreases. And they keep talking about how important it is to lower inflation. So making those Fed funds increases and talking about it, the combination of those things is really what they’re trying to do to give people comfort that they’re very serious about inflation. So I don’t want to get too deep into this kind of bond nerd area necessarily, but when you think about where we’re at now, so we’re at a 3 to 3 in a quarter Fed funds rate, the market’s pricing in moves that are higher. But just because they’re pricing in another one and a half percent move, that doesn’t necessarily mean that long term interest rates have to move up another one and a half percent. Their more recent moves are really going to be a bigger deal for like your money market account, maybe your savings account. So a lot of these things that they’re already priced in, so they raise it one and a half more percent than really interest rates are kind of where they need to be at this point. But if the market get surprised and maybe inflation stays higher, you know, then they could move it up a little bit more. So the good thing is, you know, that we’ve actually have, you know, higher rates for savers. So that’s really a positive thing. And we have a lot of kind of this negativity already baked into the fixed income market.

John Coleman: That’s super helpful, Benji. And I do want to circle back to more bond nerd stuff in just a moment with how you’re thinking about those markets. And I definitely empathize with the fixation on ice cream. It feels like we get along on that crime. Before we dig into that too deeply, though, Brian, I was hoping to pitch it over to you. Obviously, there’s been a lot of volatility in public markets, both as a result of the Fed announcement, as well as maybe some other compounding factors. What are you seeing in public markets right now and what do you think has driven the decline over the last couple of weeks?

Brian McClard: And, of course, has been a volatile market the entire year. And really with this latest downturn from August, I think we’ve seen something like a 15% sell off in the S&P alone. So this last quarter has been enough volatility for a full year, even though it’s only been the last couple of months. But believe it or not, it’s really been because of some demonstrated economic resilience. We’ve had inflation be a little bit stubborn to come down maybe, and I don’t know if we’ll get into that or not, but because of those things, the Fed has really just reiterated their their idea that they’re going to keep at it raising rates. Just kind of as Benjamin was mentioning, you know, until inflation softens. And so you’ve had the situation where good news is bad news. And that means what’s happening is the market’s trying to stay ahead of the Fed, and that’s what you’re seeing in prices.

John Coleman: That’s helpful. And, Justin, maybe I’ll come over to you on that front. Are we reaching a bottom? I mean, we have seen these precipitous declines building on losses earlier in the year. Now, when is the bottom? I mean, do you think we have more room to fall? And what are you looking to figure out if we’ve reached the trough?

Justin Speer: You know, they don’t want to come out and say that I know where the bottom is going to be expressed. But I think it comes down to answering this question. It’s going to come down to whether or not we’re heading toward a hard landing or a soft landing. And I believe the market right now is pricing in in the equity markets something closer to a soft landing scenario today. And I’ll talk about that in a minute. But just to kind of retrace where we are, the market is back to the recent low that it achieved on June 16th. So the market from its peak in January. And I when I say the market, the Russell 3000, the broad U.S. market is down 25% from the peak that it achieved in early January. So just for perspective, that’s the fifth worst decline from a market peak since 1990. We’ve had, in addition to this, seven other bear markets since 1990. This is the fifth worst in historically. So you think about 105 days on where we’re literally as of yesterday, right on top of the low, we just retraced back to that low 105 days from that bottom in mid-June, and we achieved that 25% decline. The market historically, if we had bottomed, is up closer to 30% on average, 105 days off of a bottom. And we’re currently flat because of inflation globally being higher and stickier than the market expected, which means policymakers, as Benji was talking about, need to push harder and longer on removing the excess liquidity from the global system. So what we seen we see an interest rate spike, I mean, a dramatic spike like the speed to which this move has taken place. We have not seen in a very long time in terms of absolute stuff like this, the fastest year over year increase since the early nineties, but also a much lower base. So it’s a big move in rates. The yield curve turned negative for the first time since 2007. So when I look at twos versus tens, it’s negative. From the first time since 2007, business conditions are cooling and the dollar has raised higher against all other currencies. So postively the labor environment has been extremely tight and consumer confidence is held up and spending is held up pretty well outside of housing, which has collapsed to below pre-pandemic levels. But the bond market and the stock market are telling us that the labor environment, in my opinion, is about to face some headwinds. So we’ll see how consumer spending holds up. But ultimately, the pullback in the market has certainly been anticipating some of this. So let’s pull back to what we’ve been thinking about. As we’ve known, this is going to be coming to a certain extent, this removal of liquidity and excess stimulus. But I believe that most of the sell off has merely just removed a chunk of the post-pandemic froth in the S&P 500 multiple. You know, so if we think about the sell off, it’s been painful, but it doesn’t appear that the market is pricing in a deep recession here. The multiple right now and the S&P 500 is really approximating the 20 year average on forward estimates. And I think that those estimates are probably at risk of being revised lower because I look to 2023. So literally, I think what we have, we had a big party and we had $7 trillion of stimulus shoved in our pockets and free money and it led to the multiple going up to 22, 23, 24 times as recently as last year. And so all we’ve done is remove that froth. The multiple is literally on top of its 20 year average now. But a big question for me as I kind of think about this that remains elusive is how much consensus analyst board expectations for earnings will need to be revised lower in the coming quarters amid a slowing in demand. The lagged filter through that continues of accelerating cost inflation. That’s going to work its way into the P&L, into the margin structures of these companies. So I expect that the upcoming earnings seasons will continue to provide some answers on that front. So estimates have come down about 3% on 2023 estimates. And as we consider the removal of stimulus, we’ve done that back of the envelope. Just removing that stimulus, assuming that the pandemic never happened, I think we probably have another 10 to 15% risk to earnings estimates. Some of these estimates, I think, are embedding the idea that stimulus is going to go on forever. And we just don’t see that. Obviously, we’re going to see the opposite. So the debate we face today as we wrap this up is if policymakers can remove stimulus, camp down inflation without creating a hard landing scenario and it’s not […], we don’t know. I think that’s the real debate. But we don’t have to look far back in history to see other periods of extreme excess and how long it took for the market to break the tech wreck. And the early 2000 consisted of two painful pullbacks in the market. From August 2000 through September 2001, about 385 days, the market fell 36% peak to trough and it recovered. But then it fell back again. In May 2002 to October 2002, it fell another 30%. And then in the Great Recession, the housing bubble that corrected it took the market about 500 days to work without peak the trough, and that was a 55% correction. So that’s the question. Can we get out of this excess liquidity? Can policymakers globally do it without creating a hard landing or can we get through a soft landing scenario? And I think that’s the major question for all of us.

John Coleman: So I want to pause right here maybe and just reflect on that. And Brian and Benji turn to you all just for your perspectives, because I know this is top of mind for everyone. Reflecting on what Justin just said. What are your thoughts? Do you see the world in the same way? Do you think we’re actually nearer a trough than that? What are your perspectives on what’s left in the volatility and public equity markets right now?

Brian McClard: Yeah, I thought that was a great analysis that Justin laid out. You know, the drawdown this year, primarily valuation related in our minds because of, as you mentioned, the sharp readjustment of the discount rate. When you look at P/E right now, they’re really commensurate with where Treasury yields are. And you’re not seeing corporate spreads blow out either. And so in our minds, recession risk is not priced in right now. So if you have a recession, we believe there’s more pain to come if you don’t have a recession. You know what? We actually could probably be near the bottom.

Benjamin Bailey: Yeah. And for me, kind of just being on the bonds side, I almost feel like I should say I’m sorry or something from the beginning of the year just because, you know, like the dividend discount models and those types of things, that’s when interest rates started to go up and people are like, Oh my goodness. Well, if I have these, you know, high tech companies and they have earnings out multiple, multiple years, then it’s one thing if interest rates are at 1%, but something much different if they’re out three and a half percent. But yeah, I mean, there’s certainly a lot of negativity that’s baked in at this point. But certainly, I mean, it doesn’t seem like all of it is necessarily baked in.

John Coleman: Benji, I want to kind of pause with you for a moment and think about bond prices, about debt investments right now generally. You know, I’ve thought back to my childhood when you could get a certificate of deposit that would yield 7% or you could put money in a savings account and get a few percent. And there are a lot of people now who have never experienced that effectively since 2007, 2008. There’s no real return on cash at all. And some of these instruments, like CDs, have just become almost nonexistent. As you look at this environment right now, certainly this year, bond prices have been highly volatile as well. How do you think about approaching debt markets right now, where there are opportunities and where there are great risks in your mind?

Benjamin Bailey: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned a little bit about being sorry. And I think, you know, part of this is generally bonds have kind of played this diversification where it’s just been they haven’t played that role so far this year. I mean, in the 44 year history of the Bloomberg Aggregate Index, every time that stock returns have been negative, you know, bond returns have been at least flat or slightly positive. And they haven’t done that so far this year. But I also think I mean, at this point, they’re also offering really good value. Right. So the yield on that, Bloomberg Aggregate, and just as a reminder, that’s kind of like the S&P 500 for the fixed income markets and that yield is right now at 4.7%. So almost 5%. It hasn’t even been this high since 2008. And that was obviously during the Great Recession. And so and total returns for bonds, they’ve kind of have two main components in that. The one part is an income return or kind of the coupon or yield, and the other part is the price return that you get. So we started the year with just such low rates, it was about 1.7%. And that means that over a 12 month period, your income return would be, you know, that 1.7%. But since interest rates have gone up about 3%, right, that 1.7 up to the 4.7, that means that, you know, you’ve gotten your income return of 1.7 or a little more because interest rates have been going up. But that’s not nearly enough, you know, really to overcome these negative price returns that we’ve had of about -16%. So the net total return kind of net net gives you in this 13% area. But I think the good part, and again, while I’m excited about this, is that the math works a lot differently now. So interest rates go up a little bit more. Yeah, you can have a slightly negative return over the next 12 months, but with interest rates is high at almost 5%, you’re in a much better balance kind of between your positive scenarios versus your negative scenarios. And certainly things can get worse. I’m a bond guy, so I can always think of bad things that can possibly happen, no doubt. But, you know, if they stay solid or kind of I mean, even if they would actually have interest rates, it would fall a little bit. You would have your yield of about 5% and maybe even a little bit of positive price returns. I think, you know, big picture, this is actually a really good time for savers.

John Coleman: That’s really, really helpful. Brian, I want to back out from the U.S. markets for just a moment and look internationally, particularly at our friends across the Atlantic in the United Kingdom. You know, recently there was a new British government that came into power. They announced a new tax cuts, which I think the markets viewed as potentially inflationary. And then the Bank of England announced some actions. And there was a ton of volatility overseas. I think at one point the pound actually dropped to near parity with the dollar, which has never been the case before. What’s your perspective on what’s happening in the U.K. right now and any overflow impacts that U.S. investors can expect to see from that?

Brian McClard: That’s a great question, actually. And as you mentioned, for those who didn’t hear the whole situation, whenever the new government announces big tax cuts, they were the largest in 50 years and they were going to be deficit financed. And that was really concerning, I think, to the market because they viewed it as fiscally irresponsible and so they lost confidence. That’s what kind of caused the sell off in the currency. And of course, the rates rose. But a big piece of that that came up was the fact that the pension fund industry is so large in the U.K. is about 120% of GDP by some estimates. And because of the way they structure their investments, in essence, what it means is that when interest rates rise precipitously, they receive margin calls which require them to post collateral, which means they have to sell assets which causes a spiral. So the Bank of England had to step in and defend its currency, in other words, to keep it from going down and to also drive rates back down again and just really reestablish kind of an orderly market. So the reason why that’s important is because that’s essentially put them on the opposite course where central banks have been doing around the world. Right. Because everyone’s been tightening in order to fight inflation. Now it looks like the U.K. is going the other way. And so, you know, they’re wanting are you going to be able to fight inflation? Are you just going to exacerbate it and make it worse? And I think during times of stress, during times where liquidity is flowing out, I think you’re going to see these types of tests on the financial plumbing come to bear a lot more. So it’s very normal from that perspective to stress as the system stretches to to stress, test it and see what breaks. There’s speculative attacks even from folks who are trying to find opportunities. They are they we can see can we profit from there? And you know what? The U.K. isn’t the only one going through this. It’s just they’re the ones who are maybe showing a little bit more severe cracks at this moment. I mean, the Bank of Japan had to intervene to defend their currency. China’s talking about it. And so this is a normal part of this environment. And you’re going to see this. This is more of a liquidity issue in my mind, that it is a solvency issue. Yeah, we’ve got big long term debt issues on public balance sheets around the world and it has to be reconciled with that. I don’t believe they’re going to be reconciled in this way and in this time. So for the time being, I feel like, you know, there’s a little bit of a hiccup and things return to normal and then we’re good again.

John Coleman: Yeah, it’s certainly interesting. Oh, go ahead, Benji.

Benjamin Bailey: I am just going to jump in real quick. Just to say, I mean, a couple of bonds that I thought were just it was pretty wild what happened in the last few days. And they’re like the United Kingdom in their 30 years bond in one day went up 100 basis points or 1%, meaning like the price return on that was negative almost 20% in one single day. And then the next day. Then, of course, then, you know, they decided that they needed to jump in and it fell back about 1%. But just think about extreme volatility. When you own those long term bonds, you know, fall 19% and go up 19%. It is shocking what happened.

Justin Speer: Yeah, I think it just shows in these moments where you’re trying to fight inflation, pull back on liquidity, there’s opportunities for mistakes and policy mismatch that create this more risks. And so it’s something that I think every asset class we all just have to be mindful of and just be prepared for and take advantage of.

John Coleman: And this is in some ways the most complex economic environment that any of us have operated through. Right. I mean, if you think about just the U.S. market, this combination of inflation and recessionary pressures in this kind of mix hasn’t happened since the late seventies, early eighties. And then you throw in on top of that this process of de-globalization for probably the first time in many decades. The overseas risks with Ukraine and other economic moves by central banks around the world. There is just a ton of complexity here that makes it difficult, I think, to sort out which of those different factors is going to weigh the most on markets, right? Like what is actually going to win out in the prices of these different instruments?

Brian McClard: What in a brewing long term question as well that we’ve not seen in our lifetime is just the level of indebtedness that exists globally with these governments and we don’t know how that resolves. So that’s a big question.

John Coleman: Yeah, 100% right, Brian. I mean, the levels of data around the world are consistently higher, at least in the developed world than they’ve been at any point in history, to my knowledge. I mean, coming out of world wars, some of the major powers obviously had a heavy degree of indebtedness. But this kind of consistent structural indebtedness in the developed world is a relatively recent phenomenon. And, you know, we were told for a while by experts to not worry about it too much. But I think in environments like this, you start to worry about it. And interest payments on the debt become really concerning actually in this type of environment. I want to zero in on one specific aspect of that and then maybe pull out and ask you guys for a little optimism before we move to that. Justin, the inflation question has come up again and again throughout this question. Maybe you could lead us off, but I’d welcome other comments with the Fed’s actions. Do you think we’re actually getting close to taming inflation, or is there still a lot of work to go? And is the Fed going to be capable of doing it on its own, or are the actions of the US federal government going to play a meaningful part there as well?

Justin Speer: Well, in terms of, you know, are we near taming? I do believe we are going to tame. I think there’s blunt instruments, but there are tools in the arsenal of policymakers that if we don’t, it’s because we made a mistake. But I believe so. And we’ve already started to see some of the embers of that. The shift hiring rates have already catalyzed a big contraction in domestic housing activity that’s ultimately going to cool inflationary pressures in the housing component of CPI. We’ve also seen oil in a broader basket of commodities sliding sequentially, which implies less year over year headwinds on the horizon for producers of goods. In the next 3 to 6 months, the yield curve has inverted, which suggests the market is bracing for a slowdown or even a contraction in the economy. And so ultimately, I think going to result in a rise in the unemployment rate, slow wage growth. And I really think that’s the goal of the Fed is to do that, but do it without causing a hard landing. That’s the delicate balance. But lastly, just looking at tips and maybe, Benji, you could talk about this, but looking at tips, the break even spread on the five year treasuries. I pulled it up last night. So the five year treasuries less the five year tips is implying about 2.4% inflation on average over the next five years, while that spread has been subsiding after peaking at over three in April. So it tells you that the bond market is telling you that they believe eventually we’re going in front of this and ahead of this. But what does it mean in terms of just this inflation, the impact of inflation in the coming year? What’s the impact? Big picture for companies, I think there’s different constituents to consider. But for companies in a weak demand environment and I’m thinking anything with volumes below 2%, so I’m actually going to see volume fall negative. I believe in certain areas of the economy. It’s extremely difficult to deal with inflation if you’re a company, just a traditional industrial company, big picture, weak demand, inflation coming through your P&L, very difficult to pass that on. You don’t get volume leverage and it’s very difficult to pass prices on to your customers in that kind of an environment. The other thing that’s happened is because of COVID and one of the big reasons for the inflation is we’ve had not just stimulus, but we’ve had supply chain disruptions that have been a function of COVID and absenteeism, but also government benefits that have incentivized people to stay at home. And so there’s that, too. But all these pictures of, I think, some of that element, that tension within the labor force is alleviating demand. Slowing is going to alleviate some of the supply chains. And that’s going to help. I think on the inflationary front, the big picture, it’s very difficult for these companies to deal with it. And we may see with risks to margins higher, we may see that lead to companies laying off folks, reducing wages, in other instances finding innovative ways to become more productive, which is something that we’ll be looking for for households. It’s just tough. It’s tough for us middle class folks. It’s tough for the middle class and lower income wage earners. We have to continue to respond by adjusting our spending and for our family, last week it was ribeye and this week it’s tuna fish, and next week it may be dog food. And my dog does not like sharing, you know, so we have to make adjustments. But also it’s very tough. And for policymakers, this is a major ballot issue. You know, for them it’s more of a what we’ve already seen the pressure on them to respond. And there’s potential for policy mistakes that we saw like we saw this week or perception of policy mistakes anyway, in these scenarios or policy mismatch from central bankers and governments like we’ve seen. And for us though, at Sovereigns like we want to see companies responding for the rank and file for the people serving their people, their team members, they’re going to be opportunities to serve in this environment. And our desire really is to see leaders and companies offering programs to help their employees cope with this environment. It’s a big challenge. It’s also a big opportunity to serve and point people to Christ.

John Coleman: That’s great. Brian, Benji Any difference of opinion on the inflationary front?

Brian McClard: I thought that was a great analysis. I think in terms of a framework maybe of how we kind of view it look pre 2019, the Fed was not able to get inflation essentially above 2%. Right now, suddenly we’re at 8%. So it’s kind of like, okay, what happened? Well, obviously, we believe some of the culprits are really that fiscal and monetary injection. So filling a $2 trillion hole with $10 trillion. Right. That extra 8 trillion has to go somewhere. So because of that, though, we view that that it’s temporary kind of adjust and was alluding to but how temporary just the two questions and the two questions are how fast and how far. In other words, how far does it go from 8% now to 2% where it was before or some, which is, by the way, the Fed’s target for inflation, or does it in somewhere a little bit above 2%? And the how far kind of relates to what’s changed and how fast kind of relates to what’s sticky, what’s sticky right now and what needs to change there. But it is suffice to say, I think there are some sticky items that make it a little bit slower. I think there’s a couple of things that have changed. Inflation comes down mostly, but maybe not all the way. Long term drivers like the debt issue we talked about the aging demographics and just really the continued productivity enhancements. I think the long term forces will still be inexorably lower from that standpoint.

John Coleman: Well, let me include some of the market commentary, and then I want to switch to more faith driven components of this, just how you all are thinking about managing clients, for example, and faith driven impacts. But I do want to end on a positive note. So maybe around the horns, starting with Benji. Give me one thing you’re optimistic about, Benji. You’ve probably been the most optimistic given that you are in some of the bond markets right now. But give me one thing you’re optimistic about in investing right now.

Benjamin Bailey: Yeah, well, I mean, I really do like the higher yields. I mentioned that before. But I do think to just the math, which I think the math is a little cleaner in terms of bonds and you think about yield. And when they go higher, that’s kind of your future returns. But I still think stock prices, yeah, we could go a little bit lower, but in the whole scheme of things is, you know, we had such high PE ratios and that meant future returns are going to be pretty low. And so this kind of adjustment back to, you know, sadly the E is going a little bit lower. Not obviously the price is going quite a bit lower. But I mean, I see this as a positive just kind of all around in that your basic 60-40 like 60 stock 40 bonds portfolio really has a better outlook than what it would have had a year ago or certainly two years ago. So that to me is a good positive.

John Coleman: Brian, what do you think something you’re optimistic about in investments?

Brian McClard: Okay. So Benji took my number one, which is the yield that but you know what? That shows that how important it is that there is yield again. And so I think that’s important. But let me throw out my second choice that I would throw out there is the fact that these economic woes that we have out there, that we’re facing, they’re known. And believe it or not, I’m almost scared to say it. But the fact that we’re close to crisis levels in some cases, like with energy in Europe and some of these things, because what that means historically, what we observe is that crisis brings opportunity right, you hear necessity is the mother of all invention and is during those times whenever we know the issues and then we can come together, we can solve them and we can have a better and more robust future. And so I’m very optimistic that our standpoint you can look at example after example, historically Asian debt crisis, 97 and 98. You know, it was painful, but it’s led to a lot more resilient economies with better policies for the most part, and improving, just as one example. And so very excited about what’s going to come out the other side of this painful time.

John Coleman: Justin. Round us out.

Justin Speer: Yeah. So, you know, shameless plug for the firm here at Sovereign. You know, our mission is to love God and love our neighbor through investing. And that mission really stays true irrespective of market environment. We have a dual mandate for our public equity platform and goal of generating returns, at least in line with the broader benchmark market. And secondly, striving for a deeper spiritual integration within the companies who we come alongside and engage them and leaders and who invest sharing best practices, putting them in a community with other like minded CEOs. So on the performance side of the ledger, yeah, I mean, you in a career, you don’t get many of these opportunities. You know these are pretty rare and an opportunity to serve our clients and put them in some pretty compelling opportunities. We’re actually starting to see it, particularly in smallcap growth realm, seeing some really interesting opportunities there already. Companies whose stocks have just been smashed disproportionately and in some cases it’s just merely a liquidity event. You’re calling a rally. What’s going on? There’s no news. It’s a hedge fund selling out. Oh, well, this is a great opportunity. So there are opportunities for longer term investors in a long term, and there’s going to be some mismatch in strategies. A lot of hedge funds are short term focus, we are long term focused. So they may be making the right move now, but in the long run, it may not be a good move for us. That’s an opportunity that can emerge for our clients in the long run. But also really important on the other side is the right opportunities for us in an already has to serve and support these leaders of these companies who are facing a lot of pressure right now. Not just performance but there’s also some political things that they’re dealing with. Sorry about that. In the long run.

John Coleman: That is one of Justin’s company calling, he get good counsel.

Justin Speer: I know I asked for a stock pick over here and I but this is giving us opportunities to share best practices, commune with them, and hopefully God can make a difference for them and our clients in these periods of volatility and interaction. So it’s actually accelerated some relationships for us that are really important. Part of our process.

Brian McClard: I love it.

Brian McClard: That’s really good. Justin and Justin is kind of talking to what we think of as positive spiritual integration in public equity markets in addition to our alongside what people conventionally think of negative screening, which is how do you positively influence or engage companies? You know, Benji, one of the things we’ve had less time to dig into is this idea of how to do that in fixed income markets. Right. And it does look a little bit different, I think, than equity holdings. How do you approach this idea of faith integration in fixed income markets?

Benjamin Bailey: Yeah. So I mean, what we do at the Praxis Mutual Fund, we call it Stewardship Investing. So we’re thinking about being stewards not only of the money and having appropriate returns, but obviously they’re God’s resources in the end. So we want to be stewards of that and I think it is quite a bit different in a lot of ways between equities and bonds, and it can be somewhat partial, but equity investors, they can buy stocks and they can be invested in community or creation benefiting type things. But I think in the fixed income markets we’re really offered a unique opportunity. So an example, earlier this year we bought a bond, has a government guarantee, so it’s quite safe, got a little extra yield than what you would with the US Treasury and all that money is going to supply clean water and good sanitation for 5 million people in Southeast Asian and Africa. So our yield was the same as other similar response, but we were literally enabling people to get water that they wouldn’t have gotten before. Matthew 25:35, says, So I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, right? So and talk about making an impact on someone’s life. And we did do this in a mutual fund that people are able to buy, that they’re buying, you know, for a retirement or saving for their kids college fund. But talk about just making a direct impact on someone making that difference, and you can do it in your bond fund. So I think that’s an exciting thing that, you know, Bonds can offer that real direct impact.

John Coleman: And I love that. That’s an awesome word, Brian, maybe to round out. And we’re going to circle back to everyone on the question we like to in the podcast on which is what are you learning right now through Scripture that you want to share with others? Before we do that? Brian, obviously, you’re in touch every day with a number of investors, right, with individuals who are trying to weather these markets. How do you and your colleagues just think about helping individual clients, whether these markets right now and what kind of counsel are you providing them?

Brian McClard: Yeah, that’s a good question. That’s really at the heart of what we do, isn’t it? Because no one enjoys these types of markets. But, you know, the fact of the matter is, these markets are part and parcel of the investing experience. And we really believe the reason why the vast majority of our clients are really in a good place, even during this uncertain time, is because we really try hard to tie the investment portfolios directly back to the client’s financial plan. And and more specifically, I would say to the time horizon of when the client needs their money so that they can feel comfortable that their goals aren’t in jeopardy during these kind of uncertain periods. And so that’s one really critical part of it. And I know it’s human nature to worry during these times that I still think it’s okay to worry during these times because it points directly back to that plan because, you know, one wise person said, if you worry, then you don’t have to worry. Right. And the meaning is, is that if you’re worried, then you’re prepared, you’re doing something about it. And I would add to that, it’s not what keeps you up at night that you should be concerned with, but it’s what wakes you from a dead sleep. Right? And so that’s the importance and that’s the value of the plan. You know, these rough seas, they’re just a normal and expected part of the journey, but you never really reach your destination unless you leave the port. And so that’s what we’re here to do with our clients.

John Coleman: It’s really great, Brian, to conclude, as we maybe offer some counsel to everybody out there. We do want to start on a spiritual topic and Justin, we’ll start with you, maybe just a couple of minutes apiece. What are you learning through scripture right now that you want to share with others?

Justin Speer: No at the firm here for about a year now. And I’m just learning the power of culture and the power of servant leadership and what that can do for any organization, for not just companies, but my household, for families, for governments, for business. It’s a really powerful model that was founded by Jesus Christ. And I’m just reminded of Mark, chapter ten, verse 44, where Jesus is teaching all of us, teaching his disciples who had a heart problem about being the greatest. He says, Whoever desires to be greatest among you, you need to be slave of all, servant of all, for even the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and for Jesus. It wasn’t just words. It was really powerful actions that demonstrated that he really meant it. And for me, I want to be great in his eyes. And it’s a real powerful reminder. But we’re finding companies with what we call level five leadership, […] level five leaders, who is humble, passion about their business. But we’re finding these incredible leaders who are trying to honor God and running a business, loving on their employees, creating these incredible cultures in a time where it’s really hard to attract and retain talent. These companies have a bit of a competitive advantage I think in all different stripes of industries and sectors. I’m just it’s really powerful to learn that. And I’ve been in the game a long time. I’ve been doing it for 20 years, investing now, come to work with my lunch pal, my little BCF, and get in front of these leaders and talk to them about what, you know, what are we going to see in the next year or two? Never really talk about culture that’s so powerful. A lot of that goes into generating these great businesses that generate good returns for their employees. But I’m learning on time and I’m just thankful for the opportunity learn. And it’s making me hopefully a better person because when you read these passages, you know, sometimes I tend to think about other people. But really I need to be thinking, master, is that I mean, are you trying to tell me something? And so that’s one and one more is just first Timothy 6:6 when Paul says, you know for godliness with contentment is great game and these types of environments, be godly, be content in whatever circumstance we happen to be in great game, not necessarily in this life, but in life to come. And it’s it’s a good reminder for me these types of times.

John Coleman: Benji, what’s on your mind?

Benjamin Bailey: Yeah. So I think that God’s been working with me on as am I looking for peace in difficult times of life, or am I looking for peace as in like calm, tranquility in my life that really just isn’t going to be there. So our church is doing this series. It just finished it up on an is titled Flourish and a lady shared her struggles with cancer and just really sad things that she went through. And she read a verse as Isaiah 26 three and it said, You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you and all whose thoughts are fixed on you. You know, so interesting, though, when I think of that, though, when I hear that and I think so God wasn’t even offering her peace like calm, peaceful ocean, no waves. You really instead he is offering her this peace that even during this rotten thing that she was going through, that her body was going through, that he was going to be giving her that peace. And I think sometimes I want that kind of calm, peaceful ocean, you know, just kind of laying out there. And I get frustrated when things get hectic or they’re busy and stressful, but God isn’t offering me kids that are do exactly as I say. That would be fun at certain points. That doesn’t seem to work out many times, but or really a job that doesn’t have stress. Right. Because he wants to be that peace even when my life is in tumult. Right. So I need to be reminded of that because otherwise, I mean, I don’t even know why I want that, because the stress free life isn’t even what I should desire in the first place, because I really just want to make a difference. I want to make an impact. And when you’re doing that, I really need God to be that peace for me, even while I am, you know, probably ruffling feathers here or there or doing things that make my kids frustrated or whatever it might be. But really that he can be that peace for me when my thoughts are fixed on God. So that was an important thing that I needed to relearn, I guess.

John Coleman: Why don’t you wrap this up, Brian?

Brian McClard: Yeah. So, Benji, that’s a great truth. I tell you, it seems like peace is something that this entire culture is looking for and is just not finding. I read some headlines somewhere that said that they were recommending that all adults under the age of 65 be mandatorily tested for anxiety because peace has been so elusive. And we’re actually going through a study right now and the Holy Spirit has been fantastic. In First Corinthians two, it says that we understand the spiritual truths that are freely given us by God through the Holy Spirit. So in other words, we think about wisdom and peace and patience. It says not with human wisdom, because the natural person does not understand the things of the Spirit of God, because they are spiritually discerned, right? Not through our flesh. And so I think about how day in and day out, especially today, right? We have so many gifts, so many abilities, so many tools, so many resources. We have Google at our fingertips. And so it’s so easy to try and reason our way through life, to muscle our way through the challenging problems of the day. But it is critical that we are walking. In fact, I’m saying this to myself, that I’m walking in the spirit and not relying on my own power in order to find wisdom and peace and patience. Right. And which, of course, not only yields spiritual benefits, but physical benefits as well.

John Coleman: Guys, this is a fantastic discussion. Those are great words to end on. Again, we’ve got Benji Bailey from Praxis Mutual Funds, Brian McClard from Ronald Blue Trust and Justin Speer from Sovereign’s Capital. We’re grateful for your time, guys, and we hope that you’ll come back to the FDI podcast again sometime soon. Thank you.

Justin Speer: Thank you all.

Brian McClard: Thanks, guys.

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. We have a very special episode for you today. This is John Coleman and I am joined by two legends of the faith driven investing movement. Ron Blue is here with us today as well as Henry Kaestner. And we’re celebrating the launch of the Faith Driven Investor book, which has come out now and is available over electronic copy. It’s launching soon in hard copy. And we’re just so pleased that the book is out there that so many people have been able to tell their stories and that both Ron and Henry can talk to us about the launch today. Those of you who are listeners of Faith Driven podcast generally will know my business partner, Henry Kaestner. Henry, co-founded Sovereign’s Capital. He co-founded Bandwidth, co-founded Faith Driven Investor and Faith Driven Entrepreneur, and has really been an encouragement to so many of us. He’s one of the reasons I got into this industry and has helped so many others get activated. And of course, Ron Blue has been at the center of some of the most important institutions in the faith driven investing world. The founder of Ronald Blue Trust, one of the founders of the National Christian Foundation of Kingdom Advisors, and such a counselor to so many other folks. And so we’re really privileged to have both of you join today. Thank you for coming on.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you, John. I think that’s if he call it a legend alongside Ron Blue is very deserving of a chuckle. I’m anything but that, but Ron is indeed that. And so it’s a great honor to be on this episode, to talk about the book. And then for somebody like Ron Blue to spend time with us, both with the book and on today’s podcast is a great honor.

Ron Blue: Well, you’re very kind, but you let me tell the truth. So thank you. I appreciate that. And the reason you become a legend is you don’t have a long time. I’m 80 years old. So have you just said this ten years ago? I wouldn’t be a legend, but today I am maybe.

John Coleman: Well, thank you both for being here. And maybe just to kick off Henry, I know this is the second book in a series of books on Faith Driven. The first was Faith Driven Entrepreneur. Maybe just to start with, what made you want to try and pull together folks around a Faith Driven Investor book and tell us what your hope is for the book?

Henry Kaestner: We really enjoyed the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book that we put together, and one of the things that was great about it was that I did get an opportunity to share a bit about the way that God had worked through bandwidth, through David and I. But we also had J.D. Greer write some of the chapters and Chip Ingram, write some of the chapters, and Lecrae wrote the foreword, and it was a great joy to work on this is a team of four and I wanted to double down on that. I thought as we look at something like faith driven investing with the complexity that’s involved in stewarding the resources that God has entrust us with across market return investments, concessionary return investments or patient capital. And then on the third end of the spectrum, of course, philanthropy and giving, there’s a lot there is also a lot of history there. And if we want to be able to tell the story the right way and I still think that there’s so much more of the story to be taught, but if we wanted to be able to approach it the right way, it would be most beneficial for the movement and for our readers if they could hear lots of different perspectives from people who are really experts in the space. And some of those people are experts in the world of finance and investing. Ron Blue Of course, being a great example and others like Finny Kuruvilla and it will be McKinsey, Cathie Wood, Will Thomas, Ofosu Jumo, just the list goes on and we’ve got I guess maybe 15 people worked on this project, but also people like Tim Keller and Andy Crouch, who ostensibly when you look at it, you want to think of them as being finance experts, and yet they are experts in culture and identity, spiritual formation and discipleship. And so we wanted to get their voices into a really important project.

John Coleman: That’s fantastic. Henry And maybe dive into that a little bit deeper, because I think as you approach the book, you note that this is not just about sin screens, although that may be okay. It’s not just about negative screens. This is about a more comprehensive look at what it means to invest with faith aligned values. What does that mean for you and why is this a different contribution to the literature on this subject?

Henry Kaestner: Great question. So I think it is core of the book and the core of all of our lives is this desire to know God and enjoy him forever. And what we wanted to convey in the book is a lot of practical advice about how we might go about doing that with the investments that God has entrusted us with. But to start that off on this formation of the two principles that really guide our Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor movement, which is number one, is to receive the gift of the gospel, a new and even deeper level to be reminded of the God who loves us so much that sent His son at great cost to reconcile us to him and allow us to steep in that where we are as disciples, but then also where God has us in the marketplace as entrepreneurs and investors. And then to accept the invitation. To participate in the work that God is doing in his kingdom, to have a different sense of what God might have in store for us and His Kingdom as it is brought about on Earth, as it is in Heaven under His power for His glory, and just the joy that comes along with that. So we know that there’s great utility in having practical advice and wisdom, but we wanted to steep it again. A new in a gospel and kingdom message and then to build off of that with some concepts of, okay, so how do you bridge the discipleship, the gospel through to markets? Well, how do we think differently about risk? How in a world in which there’s been some great work done on making sure that we know about the products we invest in and how to avoid investing in so-called sin stocks, things like gambling and adult entertainment, etc. But how are we known for what we’re for? How can we have our investing that reflects the image of the Creator? God, how do we redefine return? What does that look like? How do we find beauty in broken things? How do we, as I said before, think differently about risk? How do we do it in community? God create us in community. The temptation, especially with wealth, is that wealth isolates. How can we invest well in a way that rewards those we invest in in ourselves and community? How do we think about partnerships and then really looking at this concept of point from one pocket? And I mentioned this before, we want to be able to look at investing in this newer, holistic level, which is, okay, we have these financial resources that God has entrusted us with. How might He have us deploy those assets to participate in the work he’s doing, but then to deploy them with market rate return when it’s called for it, when the opportunity or the cause that we see calls for market rate return, because that’s oftentimes the best way to be able to deploy capital. Sometimes it’s patient or concessionary. And then let’s bring giving and philanthropy into the equation as we’re really investing not just for financial return for ourselves, but like in the parable of sowers, we’re investing for eternity here. And so I think that when we get up to heaven, it’s not going to necessarily be this key distinction of what our investment portfolios did or what our philanthropic portfolios did, but just holistically, how do we deploy capital? So how can we look at that? And that’s one of the reasons why we have so many authors, because that’s a complicated question and dynamic. We wanted lots of people to speak into that.

John Coleman: Ron, I want to turn to you, if that’s okay. I mean, you’ve thought as deeply and as long about faith driven investing is probably anyone on the planet. Maybe you could just reflect on some of what Henry said and your own understanding what the Scripture tells us about investing and what our calling as investors is with relation to our faith.

Ron Blue: Well, Henry just used a word that I wrote down because I didn’t want to miss it. And that was think. Okay. We think differently as believers than those who aren’t, because our thinking is Holy Spirit driven, God’s word as our source. And so we think differently. And I like to illustrate faith based investing and faith based finances. And when I speak and I hold up the Wall Street Journal and I said, Now here’s the best of the best that comes out on a daily basis. But when I look at it and I say now, however, the date on this is April 20, 2021. Now. How relevant is it today? And the answer is, it may be there may be some things that are relevant, but I’ve got to read this every day, and it may or may not be relevant for some length of time. And then I hold my Bible and I say, this was written 3000 years ago, and it never changes. And I, I take the Wall Street Journal then, and I put it inside the Bible, and I say, this is faith based finances. And faith based investing is applying God’s wisdom to the best of the professional world. And it looks different when you make wisdom based decisions. You need the knowledge. No question about that. But that alone will not necessarily give you the right thinking on investments. And you know what’s really interesting Colossians 2 versus two and three, say for in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Isn’t that interesting? That is my answer to what is faith based investing. It is applying God’s wisdom to the Holy Spirit and His Word to the best that there could possibly be out there in the professional world. So I look at a guy like Henry who’s been incredibly successful in the investing world. Now, a lot of people have been really, really good in the investing world. And I think if any, you know, one of the brightest guys that any of us would ever want to meet or Jerry Bowyer or Bob Dole or a lot of the people that are out there are the best of the best. But you know that they begin their day talking to the Lord. And God then can work through them, through the day. And I know I’ve experienced and I’m sure you have to, John and Henry, but I’ve gone into a meeting with someone and I prayed for wisdom. And I go in there and something happens. I’ll ask a question that I did not plan on asking or make a comment that I did not plan on making. And I’ll say, Wow, God was at work. And I’ve walked out. And I said, That was one of the best questions I’ve ever asked. And I knew it didn’t come from me. It wasn’t mine. So that to me is the combining of the wisdom and the knowledge. So I’m combining two languages into one and making my decisions on that basis. That’s the way I would think about it. The other thing I would think about, Henry said something else about eternity, and I was asked a question by a really successful investment guy a couple of weeks ago, and he said, I’m getting ready to have a meeting tomorrow with a client. And he’s really concerned about this economy. And this morning at coffee, I was asked by somebody, what’s the stock market going to do? You’re a financial expert. And I said, Well, let me answer it this way. I said, Some of my friends think it’s going to go up. Some of my friends think it’s going to go down. And I’m for my friends. So we don’t know, of course. But anyway, I was answering this question about how do I talk to this person? And I say, What is your client a believer? And he said, Yes. And I said, okay. Number one, I would ask him, So have you sold? And if the answer is no, and then I say, Well, then you haven’t lost any money yet. And that’s where people make a mistake. They tend to think it’s kind of like buying a house. Markets go up, markets go down. And that and I said, secondly, if you’ve planned well, you’ve planned for the ups and downs. I mean, that’s a part of the economy. And we know that we live in a fallen world and markets are going to go down. I’ve lived 80 years. I’ve seen a lot of markets, a lot of crashes. But then the third thing that I say, and it’s coming back to what Henry said in terms of eternity, I said to this adviser, I said, you know, if the person believes that God owns it all, then he hasn’t lost anything yet. Yeah, it’s God’s. Yeah. And God has a right. And it changes my perspective if I think of it that way. I think God is I’m doing this, I’m investing. And you said it already that God entrusted me with these resources and they are going to go up and go down in terms of the investments that I do. They don’t always go up. And if he owns it, I can’t lose it.

Henry Kaestner: Yes. One thing I want to add in and, John, that I should have mentioned before about the book, because this is so important, because it underpins the movement, is that while in the book you’ll see great examples about public markets investing in private investing and real estate investing, etc.. What undergirds all of this is the concept of hard posture, which is this movement is not meant to be prescriptive or presumptuous. It’s an invitation for us all to get down on our knees with our spouses or with our investment committees and ask God how we might steward the capital that He has entrusted us with. It’s an opportunity to commune with the living God, and that’s something that’s really, really powerful. And so it’s not meant to be this big yoke around. It’s like, Oh my goodness, guys, give me this money. And it is just if I make this mistake. No, no, no, no. God wants us to be faithful and obedient. Yes. But he’s invited us into something greater, which is just being with him in our 9 to 5 job to include the money that we invest. And it’s a beautiful thing, but it’s not meant to be a negative thing. Like, don’t do this, don’t do that. Or if you don’t invest this way, it’s going to be bad. Or, you know, you can get down on your knees with your spouse. And the answer may be from God to invest in solar farms in Nevada desert. Somebody else may get down on their knees and the answer may be to invest in an emerging market. It’s in developing entrepreneurs. There is somebody else. Real estate. There’s no answer other than to seek God in his wisdom.

John Coleman: When did this first hit home for you, Henry? With regards to both entrepreneurship and investing, I know it’s been some time, but do you remember that moment where this hit home for you?

Henry Kaestner: Well, when I was running bandwidth with David, I had a verse. It was printed on my computer to remind me not to. Every hour, check out the latest going on in the sports world at the espn.com, which was effectively. To whom much is given. Much is expected. And effectively, if you don’t deliver, you’re going to be beaten with many blows. It was meant to keep me focused, and there is a performance mentality that I had about my job and then the investments I had, which is I’m going to be held accountable at the end of time about all the things I thought and did. And my view of God was so much different than it is now. It was an incomplete and I think a false version of God. Now, while all those things are in Scripture, the totality of Scripture is an invitation to the life that is fully life. And the fact that we are actually participants in what we pray for every day, that God’s kingdom would come about on Earth as is in Heaven. And I can’t remember exactly when it happened, but there is a transition from me believing that I was earning my own salvation to one where I finally realized I couldn’t I couldn’t do it, couldn’t do it under my own power. And it brought me deeper into the gospel. And actually a big pivotal point for me both in my entrepreneurship and my investing, is when I met a really good friend of mine and Ron’s when I was 38. So I came to faith at 28. At 38, I met this guy named Daryl Heald. Kimberly and I were given maybe 20% at the time, Bandwith was doing well, given 20%. I thought there’s probably a special place in heaven for the double tithe. I don’t know what we’re getting, but it’s coming to us. Right. And he asked me this question that sent me reeling, which is. Henry, why do you give. Why do you give? And I don’t know what my answer was at the time, and he doesn’t either. We’ve become great friends, but it’s probably theologically seem like something along the lines of, I don’t want to pay it forward. I don’t even know. But it seemed that everything that happened in my scripture reading over the next six months, it had to do something with money. Wow. Even the ones that even the passages that didn’t. So things like God taken five loaves and two fish from that boy and feeding 5000. And I realized that he had all of that boy’s heart, but he had 20% of mine. Ron mentioned something a little bit ago about the concept of God owning it all. When I came to understand that and I came to understand he actually didn’t need me to advance his kingdom, but he invited me into it is a gift and it’s not a burden, but it’s an invitation to something much bigger. It completely changed my world and gave me a sense of a God who loves me and wants something better for me in my vocation and in my investments. And a countercultural view as I came to understand that God owned it all in a way that freed me up. To have more joy is just you can only see that in God’s economy. So that’s what it happened for me. Thanks for asking.

John Coleman: And this holds a special place for me because, you know, when I came to the industries, God led me into faith driven investing. But he used a guy named Henry Kaestner and another guy named Luke Roush who really exposed me to this. And it’s exactly that authenticity and passion, I think, Henry, that were first attracted to me. I want to turn back to Ron momentarily. But Henry, what do you hope people reading this book leave with? What are the kind of two or three things that you hope as people read this book that they really come away with?

Henry Kaestner: Just this deeper realization of the God who loves them and just an invitation to participate in the work he’s doing in the world that will give them more, more joy. And in doing it and community being a part of the story that he is working in our backyards, across real estate, across private equity, public equity, and then also overseas. He’s got something beautiful in store for us and the gifts that he’s asked us to store and he’s given them to us because he wants them to be a tool to bring us closer to him. And if people can come away from this with a different view and a fuller view of the loving God, that’s a win. If people can come away from this and do nothing other than getting down on their knees again and just say, God, I now I think I understand the financial assets you’ve entrusted with me more. Direct my steps. Help me to understand. That’s the big win.

John Coleman: That’s a good word. And I know we’ve all talked about how we can’t earn our way to heaven, but I have heard that you can get a leg up if you leave a five star review on Amazon or your favorite review site or purchase more than ten copies. And I have heard that that makes a difference. Correct me if I’m wrong. And so, Ron, we’ve heard from Henry what he hopes people take away from the book is you think about your own contribution, which was, as you touched on earlier, being attuned to God’s word in the course of investing. Or if you’re in financial life, what is it that you hope people really take from your contribution to the book?

Ron Blue: Well, I think that the most significant question we referred to it a couple of times, but that is who owns it. You know, and until you answer that question, you’re not a steward. And when you answer that question, it changes everything. Because money transcends all of life. So if we just look at money being investments are being how I spend my money, if God owns it all, my decision making is different. And I believe that, you know, your checkbook reveals your spirituality. It is one objective measurement of spirituality. So what I would hope people take away from it is that God owns it all and He gives you all the wisdom you need when you need it to think right about what you’re doing, be in investing or whatever. So that question I guess the second question, John, would be Hebrews 13:5. I used to say this until you set a finish line. You’ll never stop accumulating. There’s nothing wrong with accumulating, but accumulating for what? And then when you have a finish line, it allows you to go beyond even in your giving. We helped a lot of people in our firm give away, a lot of money, but they had to set a finish line first and then they understood that the rest of it was really excess. And it’s okay to have it. It’s okay to have wealth. There’s nothing wrong with that. But the people who give major amounts away have set a finish line. And I come back to the question, how much is enough? And the answers in the Bible, Hebrews 13:5. It says, Be content with what you have. And so I believe this, that if if you’re not content with what you have, you’ll never be content with what you don’t have yet. And I think we fight a real battle today against greed because it is so prevalent in this affluent society that we live in. So I would like for people to come away asking the right question, because you don’t ask the right question. You never get the right answer. Who owns it? How much is enough? Are you content? That would be my hope.

John Coleman: Ron, one of the things we’ve heard from Henry and from so many others is how you’ve inspired them in the area of faith driven investing, of managing your capital in a way that’s aligned with faith as you think about your own career in life. Who have you looked to as an inspiration in that world of people? Obviously, the Scripture very much so. But are there people who have really encouraged you on that path, or are there people you look to today who you think are innovating and are really helping us to move this idea of faith driven financial management or investing forward?

Ron Blue: Well, yes, kind of in the past and in the future, I was really, really fortunate, I think, in that when I became a believer in 1974, I was in a discipleship group. Within a week, and discipleship, especially one on one discipleship is pretty rare today. And that’s really unfortunate because we need that accountability. We need that direction. You know, the guy that was discipling me, he and I were getting on an elevator, a five story building, and we stepped on the elevator and the doors closed. The elevator was full. And he said, Ron, tell me what you think of Jesus Christ. And, you know, I muttered and stuttered and so forth. And we got off on the fifth floor and he said, I wanted to just to teach you the value of a 10 seconds testimony.

John Coleman: Wow.

Ron Blue: I’ve never forgotten that, of course. And that was 50 years ago, probably now. And he stayed a mentor of mine throughout his life. He died not too long ago. In fact, the three people that impacted me the most, he was one. Dr. Howard Hendricks from Dallas Seminary, was a person in his generation who may have done about as much for the kingdom as anybody. But I called Hendricks all the time. He had the ability to take a concept or a thought and put an end to saying, for example, he said, You don’t know whether you’ve been a successful parent, until your children have raised their children. Well, that gives you a whole different perspective on raising kids. He also said, never forget it. He said, You know, if you want to find out how important you are, you should put your fist in a bucket of water, take it out and see what kind of impression you left. He had the ability to say things like that. And so I quote Hendricks a lot when I speak, and he meant a lot to me. And then the third person that had a real impact in my life was Dr. Bill Bright, the founder of Campus Crusade. I was on the Campus Crusade board for about 25 years, and I stayed on that board because he gave me eight days a year ago, right? And Bill was a man of faith. Incredible faith. If there was ever a problem, I call him one time. And I said, I got a real problem, Bill. I need some help. And I told him of my problems and he said, Wow, what an opportunity to trust God. And that was. Bill. He was famous for saying that because that was his life and the way he lived his life. So Dr. Bright taught me a lot about faith. He taught me a lot about leadership. He taught me a lot about vision. There is no greater visionary. He taught me a lot about leadership. He let people lead. You know, I think of the ministries that came out of Campus Crusade with the Jesus film and athletes in action and family life radio and on and on and on and on. 50,000 staff around the world. It was such a privilege to have a world perspective and to be in the shadow of such a man of faith. So I’ve been a very, very blessed man, John. You’ve gotten to know a lot of leaders and see those that succeeded and seen those that failed. And I tell you, quite frankly, my concern right now is that we’ve in the Christian world, we’ve become somewhat of a celebrity culture. And that’s scary because that is really hard to handle. Celebrity. I wouldn’t consider myself a celebrity, but I’ve done a lot of speaking and I just I discipline myself when anybody complimented me on a speech or thought or whatever. I never denied it. But in my heart I said, thank you, God, because God did. And I just am concerned that I would become a celebrity culture in the Christian world. And so the humble man of faith is rare. Now, frankly, I consider Henry to be one of those guys and a guy like Bob Dole that I know really well in the investment world, same thing. I don’t know much more humble man than Bob. So there are examples out there, hugely successful people who have humility and we need it. It scares me when people become famous. Whether they can handle it or not.

John Coleman: When we’ve seen so many instances where that’s gone wrong recently and you’re right. You know, it feels to me there’s a careful balance to strike in the sense that God does raise up men and women to do his work, to do great things. He’s done that since biblical times. At the same time, with that profile comes risks, right? With the elevation comes risk. And how people manage that with humility is such an important part of their legacy because it’s so easy for that to go wrong. And you’re right, it does seem to me that humility is the key component that keeps people from going off track, right? The ability to credit credit where it’s due to know that it’s not about them and to constantly remind themselves that they’re on a mission and that that mission is not their own advancement, it’s not their own celebrity. And to never become too enamored with that, because we know that’s all ephemeral. Right. And that we’re really serving something much higher.

Ron Blue: Well, and frankly, in the faith driven investing world. You’ve got a real opportunity there to help people understand. I would say the perspective of wealth and why God gives you wealth. And I believe he gives you a wealth to use. Maybe it’s giving and maybe it’s investing. From a spiritual standpoint, there’s no difference because God owns it all. Okay, so you’re using his resources to accomplish his purposes and people respect those that are experts in the investment world. So there’s an authority there that has been given to Faith Driven Investor and Faith driven entrepreneurs and needs to be handled with terrific humility because it’s a gift. Okay. It is a gift.

John Coleman: That’s right.

Ron Blue: I consider myself one of the most blessed men in the world because I know so many really good people and I’ve seen so many faithful people. So I’m pleased that you considered me to write a part of the book and be a part of what you’re doing.

John Coleman: One that’s Ron. I can say this because I am not a contributor to the book. It is an exceptional group of people. And and you’re right. I mean, there are so many really bright voices in the space right now. There are a number of incredibly smart, incredibly capable, but also incredibly humble people like Kathy, like Finney, like yourself, like Rob, like my partners, Luke and Henry, who I think are really advancing this work in a meaningful way and also avoiding many of the trappings that you described. And I know that we all are incredibly grateful that you chose to be a part of the book, but much more importantly than that, that you’ve chosen to build a career in this area and that you’ve chosen to really advance the ball through Ronald Blue Trust, through NCF, through Kingdom Advisors, through your other efforts in a way that’s inspired so many others. So we’re really grateful to have you on today, Ron, to talk about this.

Ron Blue: I consider it a privilege. John, thanks for asking me.

John Coleman: And I would be remiss if I didn’t end the show by just reiterating the Faith Driven Investing book is out now, an electronic copy. There will be hard copies available in January of 2023. It’s from Tyndale and if you go to Faith Driven Investor dot org right now and register for one of the Faith Driven Investor Foundation groups launching in January. If you’re one of the first 200, you will get a free copy of the book. So there is a great deal if you’re going to do that. We encourage everybody to check it out. There are wonderful contributions by Ron and Henry and others, and we’re so grateful to you for listening to us today. Thank you.

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman and I am very privileged today to be joined by the State Treasurer of Kentucky, Allison Ball. Treasurer Ball has had a remarkable career dating back to when she was a kid and had a startup and has long lived in financial markets and she has held a number of posts over time, including as the youngest statewide officer in her state for a period of time, the first statewide officer to give birth while in office, I think at one point, which we can dig into and a number of other things. So we’re very privileged to have Allison joining us today. Allison, thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Allison Ball: John Thank you. But I’ll even make this sound even a little bit cooler. I was the youngest woman in the country to serve in a statewide elected office, and I was that for about three years. It’s one of those positions, you know, you’re not going to hold forever. Someone else at some point will be younger than you. But for about three years, I was the youngest woman in the country to hold a statewide elected office.

John Coleman: That is unreal. And when was that? When did you come to statewide elected office?

Allison Ball: So I got elected. I ran in 15, sworn in in 16. So a few years back, but not real long ago. And like I said, for three years I was the youngest one. There are a few younger now, not very many. There was a woman in Missouri who came in a little bit younger than me. And then there was a woman in Michigan who was like three months younger than I am. So I’m still in the young stage when it comes to statewide elected officials.

John Coleman: That’s amazing, Allison. And what a cool witness to other people, too, just to encourage other women in their offices, other people, I mean, to be able to take up big responsibilities early.

Allison Ball: Thank you. I hope so.

John Coleman: Well, where I want to start today, you know, Allison, a lot of folks just won’t be familiar with what a state treasurer does. And obviously, you’ve done the role for some time now. Talk us through what a state treasurer does. How do you spend your day and what are you focused on?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, I’ll talk to you about my office, because there’s a saying among state treasurers, and it’s kind of funny to think that we have a saying, but we do. And the saying is, if you’ve seen one State Treasurer’s office, you’ve seen one State Treasurer’s office, it’s because there’s a lot of variety. They all have similarities, obviously they all touch on money, most of them do something with investments. So there’s just a variety of ways that those skills are used in Kentucky. I always describe myself as the watchdog of taxpayer dollars, and I’m actually an attorney by background. So I like to emphasize that part because I say that whatever comes out of my office is in line with the Constitution, in line with the law that it’s correct. So it’s not just a bookkeeping role. It actually has an aggressive oversight role as well. So in the background of everything I do, I’m that watchdog of taxpayer dollars. Everything I do deals with money in some way. I deal with our banking relationship. I deal with the IRS on the point person for those entities. And I also do deal with our investments. I sit on our teachers retirement system. It is a board. Most of these are actually run by boards. I chair the State Investment Commission, which does our cash management or debt management, a variety of other things like that. And I’ve been a big proponent of financial literacy, so I brought that to this office that did not exist prior to me being Treasurer. And then one of my favorite things to talk about, I’m going to mention this because this is true in a lot of treasurers offices. If you know this, you want to check this in your own state. I’m in charge of what’s called unclaimed property in Kentucky, and it’s basically a statewide lost and found. Most states have these most states have them run by the treasurer’s office. This is worth you checking on whoever is listening to this. You may have some money that you don’t know about and it is a great thing to talk about it. Thanksgiving her parties is a neat way to be able to make yourself memorable to people because you may find somebody some money. So we actually are part of a national database called Missing Money.com. You can go to our website and see if you got Kentucky money, but if you check missing money.com, that’s a bunch of states put together and you can see if you’ve lost money in Florida or your home state or wherever. And my job is to get people their property back. It’s a privilege to do it. I love doing it. I’m a big believer in property rights. Some states are more interested in keeping that money because they can utilize it while it’s in the state coffers. But it’s been my guidance. My motivation is that I’ve always tried to get the money back, so I’ve returned more money than any other treasurer in Kentucky history, returned about $146 million. So that’s a fun piece of trivia that a lot of people don’t know about, about Treasurer’s offices. But it’s true for most of them, it’s true for mine. So that’s kind of a gambit, a quick gambit of what I do. There’s a few other things of interest. I run a program called Stable Kentucky, and they’re able accounts, their savings and investment accounts for people with disabilities. And that’s something that I brought on while I was treasurer and and a few other things here and there we can talk about. I’m also a big believer in transparency and I watch the transparency website so people could see where their money is going. Coming from the financial sector, I actually was a bankruptcy attorney before being treasurer. I realized how important it is. You can’t make good financial decisions unless you know where your money’s going. And that’s true at the state level, not just in the individual level or business level. So that was one of the things I pushed for when I came into office. So that’s a quick overview of things that are happening in the Kentucky State Treasury. There’s some similarities in other states, but, you know, that’s what’s happening here.

John Coleman: That’s amazing. I didn’t realize the diversity of things that are going on and I kind of want to talk about all of them. I wish we had four or 5 hours today just to start digging in, you gave us some sense of this with the lost property at $146 million. States are managing a lot more in terms of the banking relationships, financial transactions, pools of assets like the cash. You mentioned retirement plans than people think. I think people just don’t think about the pools of assets that are in their states. Would you mind just giving us a little more detail on that? What are those pools and how big are they and what difference does that make to the residents of your states?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, there are different pools, and of course, they’re in the billions of dollars. And that’s the case all over the country in different states. There are some states, North Carolina is one where their state treasurer is the sole fiduciary of all of their pension systems. So he makes all of the decisions. That’s one end of the spectrum. Everything goes through him. I think even our insurance, if I recall correctly, actually goes for him too. So he has a heavy weight of responsibility on his shoulders. He does a good job, but he’s the one person who’s making those decisions for most of us. We have a team of people. The responsibility is shared. And I’ll tell you, I’ve heard I think it was the 1980s. Once upon a time, a lot of decisions were left to the Treasurer once upon a time, and there was a Treasurer who had figured out how to. This was for the State Investment Commission, so for cash management purposes was actually dividing up among different Kentucky banks and there were some kickbacks involved. So once upon a time they realized that that was probably not a great idea to have one person unless, you’re very confident in that one person. So in Kentucky, that was shifted to a board. So most of my responsibilities, I sit on a board, among others. But most of the time I am the one elected official, so I’m the one who is representing the people as a whole, which I think gives me a pretty powerful voice to represent what we want and just good long term thinking.

John Coleman: And how big? Like the teacher pension plan. What does that look like in Kentucky and how many teachers is that taking care of?

Allison Ball: Sure. So I’ll tell you, one of our great challenges for our teacher retirement system has been we’ve had a very high unfunded liability for a long time. So when I came in office, I knew this was going to be an issue that I was going to have to think a lot about. Right now, it’s about 57% funded, which doesn’t sound great, but actually it’s better than most of the other funds in Kentucky. So that’s our good one. But that’s meant that it’s required some real long term thinking about that particular program. There’s a variety of reasons of why it ended up where it was at. Some of it was political. You had governors and you had members of our state legislature who, instead of wanting to put money into the program, they wanted to use it for things that just had more immediate returns. And that’s always kind of a risk when you’ve got political people involved in things so that they can get more favor and more votes if they’re doing something quickly with money rather than long term. And for the whole time that I’ve been in office, there’s been a much more serious commitment to making sure that the money is that is needed in that program is in there. So that has stem the tide. We’re not bleeding out. Money like that has been going on for decades. It actually was just very unsound for a long time. There really weren’t a lot of actuarial studies done on it, and it was just a quick way to get favor. So they were taking money and just not thinking long term with it. Our state government workers pension, which I actually don’t sit on and I’m running for state auditor right now and the auditor actually has an oversight role for all of our pension systems. So I’m eager to be involved in that. But our state workers is about 15, 17% funded. So that tells you kind of the gamut of where we are. That one has become pretty much a pay as you go. It’s on a much better footing than it was when I got here, because there’s a long term plan and there’s a commitment to make sure the money is there. But that has been in crisis mode for a while, and Kentucky is just going to be a long term commitment to make sure that we’re just careful with it.

John Coleman: That’s amazing. I mean, it is incredible. As you look around the country, there are billions of dollars in these plans. You’re taking care of tens of thousands, often state employees, teachers, folks that people want to support. You know, your normal person out there really wants teachers to have a good retirement. That’s what they signed up for and they want to make sure they’re funded. And yet these pension plans, as you noted, have often been historically at least mismanaged or used for the wrong purposes and therefore been underfunded. One way that people have sought to correct for that is their investment strategies and those. How do you think about investments broadly? I guess in those types of pools of assets? And I know the pools are quite different because you mentioned there’s cash management, which is obviously one thing. These pensions will often have very diversified investment profiles. How do you think about that and what, if any, role as the Treasurer do you play in thinking about those asset allocation strategies to help make sure that the funding increases for those programs?

Allison Ball: Well, one thing that actually is good about the teachers retirement system is that the strategies weren’t bad, so that wasn’t the problem. We’ve actually always gotten pretty good returns. We’re getting good returns now. They’re definitely long term investments. They’re cautious investments. The one for the state employees has had different people at the helm a different time. So strategies have changed quickly from one administration. To another, and that causes problems. Obviously, if you’re talking about long term investments, if you’re changing your strategies, quite often, that takes a toll. And that has there were some efforts on that one to be involved in hedge funds that became very politically unpopular. And the teachers retirement system has actually never invested in hedge funds. And that’s one of those you get what you pay for kind of a thing. But there’s a lot of political disfavor towards that type of an investment. You know, whether rightly or wrongly, people just have an impression of it in the public. And that’s not something the teachers have done. So the teachers, one actually has been pretty good. We get pretty good returns. Definitely think about long term. You know, it is pretty diversified. You know, we do invest in some private equity. So there’s a variety of investments of that program. But I think that what you always have to be careful with is you can’t take great risks with this type of a program. You really have to be in it for the long term. And that’s something that we remind ourselves right now as we’re watching the market behave the way that it’s behaving. You know, we’re in it for the long term. And how are we doing? I’ll tell you one thing that’s interesting about teachers in Kentucky. They live a very long time and we have

John Coleman: Which is good. That’s a good thing.

Allison Ball: Great is great. You know, it’s a fulfilling profession and they make a difference in people’s lives. We have a lot of small towns in Kentucky where teachers have known generations of children and they’re very involved in their communities. So it’s a great way of life. So we have teachers that live a very long time and in Kentucky, you actually only have to be a teacher for 27 years. So if you’ve hit your 27th year while you’re in your forties and you live to be 180, which we actually have, we have teachers that are 108. We actually have quite a few that are over the age of 100. It’s not unusual at all for teachers to live to their eighties and nineties in Kentucky, which is wonderful. But, you know, that makes you realize that you have to take care of their money for a long time and make sure it’s there. So I think we actually send birthday cards to everybody that’s over the age of 100. It’s a way for us to honor them and also keep track of how they’re doing.

John Coleman: That’s it’s amazing. Allison, you know, I want to dig in to one topic that’s been really relevant for states recently and just get your perspective on it. The topic of ESG has come up a lot recently with states. There have been certain states like Texas or West Virginia that have been very vocal because through ESG policies, certain financial institutions have taken negative steps towards industries in states like the oil and gas industry in Texas or coal in West Virginia, etc.. And some of those states have looked unfavorably on that, obviously, and have begun to question whether ESG in their asset management portfolios is good for the residents of their states, at least the way it manifests today and whether it actually helps to achieve investment returns. Talk to me a little bit about that topic as you see it from your perch in Kentucky.

Allison Ball: Sure. Yeah. So from the Kentucky state treasuries perspective, I first began to hear about ESG. I know I’m talking to an audience that’s well familiar to you all know what this is and you encounter it all the time. I usually have to give kind of a rundown of what it means, but I remember when I first got in office and I started going to meetings for state treasurers, and we have a lot of public finance people that come in and talk to us. And I remember it kind of seemed academic, it seemed novel, it seemed like something people were trying to sell and they were pushing it as great stewardship. You know, it’s not just about investments anymore. We’re stewarding. We’re thinking about stakeholders. All these things are telling us. And I kind of just brushed it aside, didn’t take it very seriously. And I also thought and I sort of followed the Milton Friedman approach of, you know, we’re about returns and profits. And that’s what my focus is. I’ve always felt like that’s my responsibility. I’m not supposed to do other things. I have this core responsibility of making sure that I’m getting good returns for people that I’m responsible for. So when I first started here about it, I brushed it aside. I remember other treasurers were similar too. I remember having a conversation not that long ago. This may have been in 19 actually, that I was at a meeting and there was another state treasurer was actually pretty respected and dealt a lot with investments and he was saying, Yeah, we’re having another discussion about that. What is it again? I can’t remember the acronym. There’s the letters E something or other. So that was sort of the attitude among state treasurers for a while is that it was just it was a novelty. It was something that was trying to be sold to us. And some people gravitated to it and others didn’t. And treasurers, for the most part, are a pretty conservative bunch. They’re pretty fiscally responsible bunch you know, whether you’re Republican or Democrat, we kind of tend to be that way. So that was sort of the attitude. Well, in the last year or so, I really seen a big push to make it the only game in town. And this has been a warning to me as a Kentuckian. I told you about where our pensions are at 57% funded at about 17% funded. They’re not in the place where we need to play around. You know, you’ve got these older teachers who are 100 plus years old. My job is to make sure that they have the money when they retire for as long as they’re retired. That money is there for them. It’s not my job to play around with those funds. And Kentucky is different from some other places. You mentioned West Virginia. You mentioned Texas. Kentucky is like them that we are a fossil fuel state. I’m from the mountains of eastern Kentucky and from a small town in that Hatfield McCoy area. I’ve got generations of family members who have been coal miners, so coal is near and dear to my heart. I know the value of it. I know the value of it to America. I know the importance of. That kind of cheap energy and oil and gas. You may not realize this is actually big in Kentucky as well, and it’s big in eastern Kentucky, where I’m from. So for me, you know, I hear about this ESG and I start to worry about am I actually thinking about investments in terms of returns? And I actually taking care of this the way I’m supposed to do it. And there’s a double whammy in Kentucky because it affects our economy, because there’s been a big push on the E side, on the environmental side to truly target and eliminate the fossil fuel industry. And a lot of people have been pretty straight up about it. I talk to coal operators often and they tell me that they’re told they won’t be able to get financing because the particular bank that they’re trying to work with, Will maybe they’ve worked with for a long time, doesn’t like coal anymore. And it’s very much an ideology, I think, rather than an investment strategy. I know that people will argue with you and tell you otherwise, but it feels very much like an ideology to me, rather than just the traditional type of investing that we’ve looked at in the past. And I think there’s strong argument. So that’s the way that’s the case. So in Kentucky, it’s something that I’ve been very involved in. We actually got a bill passed last year about the fossil fuel industry that said that if you are you know, if you’re a bank, if you’re any kind of a company, if you’re an asset manager, if you are trying to boycott the fossil fuel industry for trying to eliminate the fossil fuel industry, harm it specifically because of the work that they do, then we’re not going to do business with you as a state. So we got that passed and it’s not going to work with us. We’re not going to work with you. And as far as my fiduciary obligations, this is true of many places. We have a sole interest obligation, meaning, you know, we are investing for the sole interest of returns for those beneficiaries. And then we have another one. We say, Kentucky, that we’re supposed to invest to support our economy and our industry in Kentucky, and that includes fossil fuels. So I actually asked our attorney general recently, given that obligation, if it would even be legal to play around in the ESG world. And I got a resounding answer from the AG’s office that said it would be illegal given that obligation. And I think that’s actually probably pretty true. A lot of other states do. So I would caution if you are in the public finance world, I would caution you before you jump into a lot of ESG stuff because you actually may be breaching your fiduciary duties.

John Coleman: That’s so interesting, Allison. One of the things we say around our firm, the firm I work at, is that all investing is impact investing. It’s just a question what impact you’re having. And this idea, you know, ESG is just one manifestation of particular manifestation of a set of values that you can invest along this idea, for example, that you all can invest in a way that is beneficial to the residents of Kentucky that serves the interests of Kentuckians. That’s an expression of values that may stand in contradistinction to some of the ESG values that is very much aligned with how the resources of your state can support the people of your state. I think people miss that. I think ESG is now become known as the way you express values. And what’s lost in that is it’s just one particular set of values you can express. There are other ways in which you can express your values through your financial capital. And I think that’s one of the encouraging things that’s happened, is people are waking up to that and thinking about the ways in which they can leverage the assets that they have and the influence that they have in a way that really serves the people that they’re intended to serve.

Allison Ball: Yeah, that’s a great point. And, you know, you’re coming from a different world than I am because I’m stewarding the people’s dollars. So I have to be careful in a way, you know. But from a Christian perspective, you were in a wonderful place where you can invest in the people that you’re investing for, in ways that are expressing those values and are consistent with that. And of course, as a state elected official, I have to be mindful of the state as a whole how I do that. But, you know, you’re in a great place where if you want to be supporting things that are consistent with your Christian faith, you have the great ability to do that and more power to you. And for me, I have to be so careful to be doing things the way that the citizens of Kentucky have put me here to do.

John Coleman: And that clarity is a great thing for you because it makes your mandate very clear and it makes the parameters with which you operate very clear. I want to back up I want to circle back to some of the great programs that you just mentioned, because it sounds like you’re very passionate about them. But before we do that, I want to get more of your story. So I read that you are a ninth generation Kentuckian, which seems like a very long time ago, and you just mentioned growing up in eastern Kentucky. Tell me more about your family history there and what that means to you as a public servant in Kentucky.

Allison Ball: Yes. Yes. So like you just said, I’m ninth generation from eastern Kentucky, from the same small county. It’s Floyd County in the mountains, in the coalfields. I actually just lost both of my grandparents. They’ve been with me for my whole life. My papa have just passed away in 95 and my nanny just passed away at 92 and the passed away in the last month. And they’ve just been a tremendous influence to me. I’ve always told people I’m related to about half the counties as my family’s been there so long. We’ve been there since the 1790s, and it’s a wonderful way to feel rooted. You know, I really know where I’m from. There are not many people in the country now, I think, that have that kind of history with the place. You know, I know my family, I know my ancestry. I love Eastern Kentucky. It is a rugged and independent area. It’s not an easy area to live in. You know, there’s hollers where the sun doesn’t shine. There are mountains. It’s I. Isolated. But if you’re from there, you’re probably Scotch Irish. Your family came over at some point in the early 1800s or late 1700s. And if you’ve decided to live that far away, that off the grid back then, you probably have some independent streak to you. And that has been passed on for a long time. So I’m very, very proud of the region that I’m from. I love it. It’s beautiful. It’s a place where it’s in the Bible Belt. So, you know, everybody’s got their own family churches and their own family graveyards. And it’s a beautiful, incredible area. And I’m just so thankful that’s where I’m from. It’s been a wonderful place to be from, so it really makes me just have a deep heart, not just for my region, but also for my state.

John Coleman: That’s great, Allison. You know, it’s interesting to me because I want to get to your path in public service. You actually started very entrepreneurial as well. And I, I read an interesting story that I want to let you tell. But tell me a little bit about your entrepreneurial streak as a young person and how you came to really appreciate the financial world that led you to the path you’re on today.

Allison Ball: Sure. Yeah, I know exactly what you’re referring to. So when I was a kid, my mom and dad really wanted to teach me money management principles and nobody had taught them. I referenced my papa a little while ago. My nanny, both of them grew up in the Great Depression. My papa knew how to stretch a dollar, you know, a thousand ways. He was always wheeling and dealing and selling things that he’d had other people just great at money management. But he never pass that on to my dad. And then my mom, she grew up somewhere else, and she just didn’t really get that from her parents either. So both of my parents, smart people, my dad was working on his Ph.D. when I was born. My mom was a schoolteacher, and they had never learned these money management principles. Obviously smart. My dad has told me that when I was born he had to sell the hubcaps off his car in order to buy diapers for me just because no one had really taught them. So at some point in time, there was this blue collar millionaire that took pity on my dad and took him under his wing and just started teaching my dad money management principles. And his name was Dexter Yager. He was incredible, man. He passed away a few years ago. A huge influence on my whole family. We loved him dearly. My brother is actually named after him. My brothers, Johnathan Dexter. Huge influence. So he started teaching my parents these principles. My mom and dad thought, Well, we got to do this to Allison and we’ve got to pass this on to the next generation. It wasn’t passed on to us. We’ve got to do a better job. So they started giving me an allowance and they gave me $5 a week, $20 a month. And I remember feeling like I was set for life. You know, I had this steady income that just came in and they wanted me to learn to think long term. You know, the goal set to save my money was I was buying my own things that I would be really responsible with. And I wasn’t at all. I would spend it as soon as it came, and as soon as they gave it to me, it was gone. And my parents were watching this for a while and they came to me and they said, Allison, we’ve decided to stop giving you an allowance because this isn’t working. And that the words they used is, Allison, you’re becoming a socialist. So I had a early poli sci lesson as a nine year old when this happened. So they cut off my allowance. They said that, you know, you’re going have to figure out some way to earn some money and we’re not going to give it to you anymore. You’re going to figure this out. So I was very angry about this and I was pouty and I probably had become kind of entitled spoiled at this point because I really felt like that I just just deserved this money. And so after a few months of being pretty pouty, I realized that they were not going to change their mind. And I would have to come up with some way to get some money on my own. So I launched a business. I started Positive Pencils International, so I was thinking a worldwide company, and they were positive pencils. Like I said, they had positive sayings on them. They said, I’m a winner, believe in yourself. You can do it different, like peppy little things. And I sold them for $0.25 each or four for $1. So it was a great deal. And I remember the first week that I sold my pencils, This is pre-social media. So like I had to have face to face conversations with people to get them to buy my pencils. So, you know, I developed a lot of skills through that, you know, some courage to be able to have those kinds of conversations. And I remember after my first week of selling my pencils, I went to everyone I could and I calculated how much I made profit and I made $200 profit by the end of the first week. And that was a huge moment in my life for a lot of reasons. I remember thinking, Oh my goodness, my parents were right. I have so much more money now than I had before, but all of a sudden money had a lot more value to me because I had worked for it. And anything that I want to buy after that point, I would calculate, okay, how many pencils does it take to buy this video game or whatever it was that I wanted? So I actually became very, very careful with my money all through my teenage years. I was pretty stingy. But I also learned to goal set. And, you know, anything that I really wanted to buy, I knew I had the ability to buy it because I could earn it myself. So I became a big believer in entrepreneurialism of the free market of hard work. I actually think that’s one reason why I ran for office early was because I had a business as a kid and I didn’t think to myself, I’ve got to wait till I’m an adult [….] school to be able to do something. I knew I could start doing things now. So a huge lesson for me. It’s foundation of my life. I actually kept my business until I went to college and then I sold it to my younger brother. So it continued for a while and he kept it going and it doesn’t exist anymore. But it was a thriving business for a long time. Huge lesson for me and also a reason why I believe in financial literacy. I know how important that was for me as a kid to learn that lesson, so I want to pass that on.

John Coleman: That’s amazing. Did your brother get a pretty good deal on the business or did you negotiate hard?

Allison Ball: So, you know, my brother is 13 years younger than I am. There’s a big age difference for the two of us. So I actually had him apprentice for about two years before I sold it to him. So I want to make sure he was ready for this responsibility. And we worked out a deal where I got what I felt like I needed out of it. And I, you know, I didn’t make it too hard for him either. I also had an interest in the business continuing on. So it was okay.

John Coleman: It’s okay to incorporate other things in the sale price, right?

Allison Ball: That’s right.

John Coleman: You touched on a couple of themes there I want to pick up. The first is just how it prepared you to take office at an early age. And you mentioned in the country you were the youngest statewide officer for three years and took on this enormous responsibility that we’ve discussed. How did you handle that enormous responsibility and what advice would you have to others who might seek out that kind of responsibility?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, I really do believe that God has a purpose and a plan for everybody. My dad’s good friend is Charles Stanley, and my dad was an associate pastor in Atlanta for a little while under him. And Charles Stanley always says, you know, God’s got a will and a purpose and a plan for you. My dad always said that to me. I really believe that’s true. So I do believe that, you know, there’s a calling on your life. And sometimes it’s not always easy to figure out what it is you’re supposed to be doing. But I felt like I was supposed to go to law school after I graduated undergrad. And then I moved back home to Prestonburg, where I’m from. And I practiced law for a while. I was a prosecutor for a number of years, and then I gravitated towards bankruptcy law, and I really just had an interest in that. I’ve always had an interest in economics and policy in public service. I’ll tell you the area I’m from, the county I’m from. When I ran for office, it’s 90% registered the party that I am not. So.

John Coleman: Oh, wow.

Allison Ball: Like, I would love to run for office, but I don’t know that I could ever do this from where I’m from. And somebody planted a seed in my head and said, You know what? You should run for a statewide office. I think you’ve got the background where you could do something like that. At that point in time the Treasurer’s office had been underutilized and I don’t think people understood it very well. They didn’t know it and I thought, you know, with a background like mine, I really feel like I could take this office and I could run with it. And I’d always felt like God opened doors at different times. So I really had God just leading me. I didn’t necessarily have it in a sense from the Lord that God was saying, I want you to run for this office now. But I kept seeing doors open and as I would pray through it, I really felt like that was kind of taking me step by step by step. So I ran for office after never having run for anything before. Outside of law school student government. I was a class rep in our Student Bar Association, but except for that, I had never run for office before. So I put my hat in the ring. I had a three way primary and of course I won the three way primary. The person who came in second was 13 points less than me, and then I won that general by 22 points. I was the highest vote getter that year. The way Kentucky does it is we have a gubernatorial year who everybody has a statewide office runs that year. So attorney general, governor, secretary of state, treasurer, we all run the seven that run that year. So I was the top vote getter of everybody who ran that year. When I ran for reelection, I was also the top vote getter. So that was a fun thing. But I really felt like God just gave a great favor. He was with me through all of that. I just had a sense of his direction. So I really do believe that there has to be a calling. I’ll tell you, politics is not easy. I think the world of finance is not easy. But I really believe that we need Christians in public office. I believe we need Christians in the financial sector. As I see things develop in the ESG world, one of the things that has come to me over and over and over again as though we need Christians at high levels in these organizations, because one of the reasons why we see shifts that we as believers aren’t comfortable with is because there aren’t Christians who are at the helm of these particular industries. So I’m a big believer in follow God’s calling, follow God’s guidance in that.

John Coleman: That’s amazing, Allison, and touch on that a little bit more. So you are a person of sincere faith and longstanding faith. How does that really influence your approach to public service, your approach to finances, your interactions with the people you represent?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, it influences everything I do. So when I was beginning to see doors open as I was considering running for office, I remember having a moment where I was at a worship service at the University of Pikeville. Those were college students. I was not a college student, but I just happened to be there at that time with some friends. And I remember sitting in during the time of worship and just really had this sense that God was going to give me opportunities and then I was going to do very well at certain things, but that God was telling me I had to be authentically a follower of Jesus at the same time. And, you know, these opportunities are great, but these opportunities are not for me that I was supposed to be authentically a believer, authentically a follower of Jesus. So I have a mandate. I know that God blesses me when I’m authentically a follower of him. I guess the point really anyway, isn’t it? Like this is why we’re always on mission in our lives. So that’s always guided me in everything I do. You know, we have a direction as believers, we people of integrity. And that’s so important if you’re dealing with finances, you know, honesty, accountability, stewardship, all of those things are core Christian principles. They’re being Christlike. So all of those things influence me in a great way. We live in a time where politics is very volatile and I am very open about being a follower of Jesus. I would describe myself as a person of faith whenever I talk. And so I’m mindful that I’m a witness. For some people, I may be the only Christian they interact with. So I have to make sure that the image they get when they’re with me is an image that reflects well of Jesus.

John Coleman: That is such a good reminder. I know now I work in an explicitly faith driven firm and and it is a good check on any behavior I might exhibit that doesn’t line up with that. You feel an additional sense of obligation, and I’m certainly not in a public office in the way that you are, but I think we are. It’s a good reminder that we’re called to something even greater than our profession in or witnesses to something even greater than our profession. And so we have a higher standard that we are encouraged to abide by than even the standards we would put on ourselves from a professional point of view. You know, one of the interesting parts of your story, Allison, in addition to your faith in your youth, is that in two industries that are very heavily male, both financial services of various times, which traditionally have been heavily male and public service, which has traditionally been heavily male. You’ve been a woman really pioneering that. I mean, the first I love that statistic, that first statewide officer to give birth while in office, which is just amazing. What does it meant to you to be a woman in office? And as you’re talking to other women who are listening to this podcast, how would you encourage them about the path that they want to pursue, either in finance and investments or in public service?

Allison Ball: That’s a great question. And I’ll tell you, I actually was the first one to give birth twice. So not just one. So, so, but I also had a second child. So I may hold the record for a little bit. Maybe we’ll have a third and then we’ll really solidify this record.

John Coleman: You’ll be like Tom Brady setting records and just setting them again and again, outpacing everybody. Yeah.

Allison Ball: That’s right. That’s right. But something I actually did not have an awareness of until I actually got in office, I didn’t know that I was the youngest woman to be elected at a statewide level, so I’d gotten elected. So it wasn’t part of my talking point. It wasn’t something I was really aware of practicing law. I often was the only woman in the courtroom. And so this is somebody I’ve experienced for most of my life, at least from a professional perspective. But one thing I did not realize is how encouraging it is to other women to see a woman do something like this. I remember when I was at UK law school one time and one woman told me this young woman, and she said that you cannot be what you don’t see. And so she was thanking me because she said now she’s see someone who’s doing this. So I did not realize this was going to be part of God’s story for me. But I hope that it is encouraging, and I think that it is encouraging, I have women to be all the time that say they felt like God has called them into something. And seeing another woman doing this, you know, in the financial sector as an elected official, in a place where there are typically men, that just gives them the courage, they can do it, too. It’s actually been really important, I think, to be a mom and a wife and do this. You know, people have different seasons, different responsibilities and different callings. I’m not saying that that every mom out there needs to hold a demanding job like this. That’s not the case. You know, you have to do what you feel called to do, what God’s leading you in your life to do. But there’s a lot of women who said that they wanted to do something like this and this encourages them that this actually is a possibility. So, you know, my husband and I, we actually got married after I got sworn in. We got engaged about a month after I was sworn in. We got married my first year in office, a year, nine months and two days later we had Levi and then we had Marigold last year. So a lot of people have been able to see my story as it’s progressed. And it’s neat because I realize like it’s God’s timing or we got married a little bit later than a lot of other people do, but that was God’s timing and I really like that also is an encouragement to people is that if you’re just seeking God in your trust, in God, you’re doing what He’s led you to do. God can put all these pieces together. You know who you’re supposed to be married to. The children that he wants you to have, how you want you to do it. So I’ve always felt like if God is calling me into elected officials role and I feel like he has and he called me to get married, which he did, and he’s called me to be a mom of two children. He’s called me to do each of those things well, and there’s a way to do each of those things well. So I hope that is a great encouragement to women who watch this. Women often. And there’s books after books after books on this. And I do think it’s true that women a lot of times self disqualify. So I always try to take a moment to just really encourage women that they have a lot more gifts, skills, capabilities, and they realize and we need their voice. We have so many wonderful men doing great things, but we need perspective of women too. We don’t want to lose great talent just because you know, your self disqualifying. And I think many times we as Christians kind of fall in many traditional roles, so we probably even more of that with tendency to do that. So I’m always trying to encourage women that don’t self disqualify. I’ll say real quick, one quote that I love that I often refer to when I talk to women. Leslie Rutledge is the first female attorney general of Arkansas. She’s running for lieutenant governor right now. She was the first to have a baby while serving in office at a constitutional level. So it’s a small sorority. We know each other. And I remember Leslie told me that when she was running for office the first time, people told her, Are you ready for the rough and tumble of politics? It’s mean. Can you handle this? Are you ready? And she told them, any woman who survived junior high can handle anything that politics can throw at you. And I love that because that’s not true just for politics. It’s true for any profession. That is a hard profession. You know, if you’re a woman who survives junior high, you probably got what it takes to do whatever it is God is calling you to do. So I’m always trying to encourage women that we need their voice, we need their involvement, we need a greater level of leadership from women in the country.

John Coleman: And I think it’s neat that you’re able to demonstrate there is often this false choice, I think, in our society that you either need to pursue a professional path or need to have a family. Right. And I know it’s quite difficult. So that’s not underestimating that. I’m married to a wonderful woman who’s pursued various professional things, but you can’t have both of those things actually. And that a woman can achieve a family life, as well as a very successful professional career, I think is such an important message. The other that you touched on, there was a great study or maybe a disappointing study in that they looked at how women and men approach job applications. And, you know, job applications are written to be the ideal candidate, often way overinflated for what the role requires. And maybe unsurprisingly, men would apply for anything regardless of whether they were actually qualified for it. Even if they were dramatically underqualified, men would kind of throw their hat in the ring and move forward, and women would read it very carefully. And if they were disqualified on any front would, as you termed it, self disqualify. And it is important, I think, that message that you’re delivering, that you shouldn’t underestimate yourself. Right. You’re actually capable of doing these jobs, taking on big roles. And don’t be the person who disqualifies yourself, right? Force others to disqualify you if you’re legitimately not qualified. But don’t be afraid to take risk and put your hat in the ring, even for something as big as a statewide public office. I want to touch you know, you’re responsible for great public stewardship in your private life. You’re also stewarding something related to this last topic of women. I know that you and Asa have been big supporters of crisis pregnancy centers, something that’s in the news quite a lot now with the Dobbs ruling. Why does that matter to you and what role does that play in your life?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, both Asa and I are huge advocates for life, and that’s something we both deeply care about. I remember when we were on our very first date, Asa started talking to me about some things that were important to him, just making sure we were on the same page and we started talking about what we felt about life. And Asa had told me the story is an amazing story about how his mom was, I think, on some steroids at the time that he was conceived. And so the doctor came and said he is at great risk to have all kinds of health problems. He’s going to have a lot of mental disabilities and that you are young. So my advice to you, the doctor said, is just a board game. Try again. Another point. You know, this is not worth the risk. And Asa told me his parents were kind of shocked and I thought, well, a doctor knows what he’s talking about. And they were kind of inclined to do that. And they were actually at a Christian college at the time. So they ended up talking to another doctor who was the doctor on campus. And that doctor, I’m told, reached across the table and said, Do not abort this child. God has a plan for this child. And she started talking to Asa’s mom about what that meant and everything. So they ended up going ahead of having Asa. And what I love about that story is that Asa was born perfectly healthy and he talks about how his dad, when Asa was born. Is that you ever said, does he look normal? Does he have his fingers? Does he have it? Those were serious questions they were asking about Asa. And of course, he’s a genius and he’s wonderful and exemplifies everything that’s wonderful about manhood. You know, I just think he’s perfect. But they were going to abort him. And, you know, he’s the person who’s my husband and a father, my children and a tremendous leader. So he has always just been a great advocate abouut that he cares about it personally. It’s important to him. So we talked about that and it was one of the first causes that I began to care about as a kid when my parents would start to talk to me about issues that were important. So we have always cared about this and we cared about it even more. We had our own little babies. I remember that we went to hear the ultrasound and the heartbeat and see Levi moving around at I think it was a day before 20 weeks. And in Kentucky, 20 weeks is the cutoff after you can’t have an abortion after that point. And we just were just so deeply moved, hearing him, his heartbeat, watching him move around there, the only protection that little fellow had or a precious little boy was our decisions, which is just kind of a moving moment for us. So we also being working parents, little ones. We know how hard it is to raise little ones. And we want to support moms who have just made this incredibly heroic and sacrificial decision to keep these babies, whether it’s through adoption or keep them themselves. So we know how difficult it is. It’s costly. You lose a lot of sleep. So we want to rally behind all these incredibly heroic moms who are doing this, whether they’re married or they’ve got a dad who’s in the picture or they’re doing it on their own, however they’re doing it, we want to rally around them and rally around these precious little lives that God has tremendous plans for. So we’ve always given, we’ve always cared, but that’s been on our top list and we give special offerings. And Levi was born and we did it again when Marigold was born, just thanking God for our healthy little children. So that’s something we care about deeply.

John Coleman: It’s a great testimony, Allison. I know we’re running a bit short now, but I want to end with the question we ask everyone, which is this is the Faith Driven Investor podcast, and we like to ask folks, you know, is there anything that you’re learning from God through scripture right now that you’d want to share with others that’s making an impact on you?

Allison Ball: Sure. Boy, I tell you, this is actually a heavy time in my life because like I told you a few moments ago, I just lost my my grandfather, my grandmother. So my papa my nanny, who I was hugely close to we actually lived with them for a year. So when my parents were trying to figure out their finances, they ended up they sold their house in Atlanta and their plan was just to conserve money. So we lived for a year in the back bedroom of my grandparents house and losing them has been it was a shock. Both of them were surprised they were not having ill health or anything. And this has just been a you know, if you believe the things that Jesus says about eternal life and his faithfulness, then you would believe it in the hard times. And this has been a hard time for me personally because of losing them. So have just really been just pouring into what Jesus says about his faithfulness and what He says about how He goes to prepare a place for you in heaven and kind of what that is like. So in a deep way, that’s been something that God’s been helping me through. I know I’m not the first one to go through loss. You know, everyone goes there’s at some point in time. But this has been the most impactful loss that I’ve gone through. And just it’s been important seeing God’s faithfulness in this time.

John Coleman: Well, Allison, our prayers will be with you as you process that loss. I know that is that is really hard to lose such a valued family member. And man, I just think so many people will be encouraged by this. I think many people will wish they were a Kentuckian now getting to hear what great representation they would have. And I think it’s such an encouragement to others who might, at a young age or as a woman or just as a person, generally decide to take up the mantle of public service and to do so in a relatively complex office like Treasury, where you do have such diverse responsibilities. So we are very grateful to you for coming on the Faith Driven Investor podcast, and I hope we can get you back again sometime soon.

Allison Ball: Thank you very much. It was a joy.