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What does Faith Driven Investing look like for a global firm dedicated to bringing prosperity across the world?

Today’s guest, Mark Stoleson, has wrestled with this question before as the CEO and Partner of Legatum, a global firm that wants to improve people’s lives by increasing prosperity across the world. 

He joins us to talk about their approach, the power of building frameworks, and what it’s like to think globally about Faith Driven Investing.

Episode Transcript

Luke Roush: So good morning. My name is Luke Roush and welcome to the Faith of an Investor podcast. I’m joined here by my co-host John Coleman. John Good morning.

John Coleman: Luke Good morning. We’re recording this at 6 a.m. Nashville time. I know, so it is an early morning, but you seem delightfully energized this morning. Despite that.

Luke Roush: I am. I am. And we have a wonderful guest this morning. Our guest is Mr. Mark Stoleson, who is the chief executive officer and a partner at Legatum. We’re going to hear more about the firm this morning, but he’s been with the firm since 2006, served in a variety of capacities, including head of group investments. He’s worked with his partners there to incubate a number of the firm’s key philanthropic endeavors, including the End Fund, the Freedom Fund, the Luminous Fund, the Legatum Center for Development and Entrepreneurship at MIT, as well as of the Legatum Institute Foundation in London. So prior to Legatum, Mark was an attorney so he’s reformed out of that practice which is wonderful and he also hails a law degree from my alma mater, Duke University, which we have not connected on previously. So that’s really fun. Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Stoleson: Luke. Thanks so much, John. Great to be with you both.

Luke Roush: Yeah, it’s really, really good to have you on. I’m a long time admirer of Legatum Mark, as I shared in our lead up to this, But I want our listeners to be able to benefit from some of the things that I really admired as we talked through your background. But just give us oriented in terms of where you all are at Legatum. And so your website has this wonderful tagline of having an ambition to improve people’s lives by increasing prosperity across the world. What does that look like for you guys? And maybe just take us down the walk and journey you all have been on?

Mark Stoleson: Yeah, absolutely. So maybe we could just start at the very beginning. So Legatum actually evolved out of another investment firm and it was a family run, sort of a family office investment firm that was 20 years old. And I work there as a young professional as you said, I’m a recovering lawyer, but a lot of those skills actually were really useful. So one of my jobs was working within our public equities portfolio, working on corporate governance issues, just trying to improve the governance and sort of what we would call ethical business leadership across our portfolio. So that was my start. What I found, and this is a really key part of the story, is that one of the principals in that firm and two of my colleagues all had a faith, and we discovered that early and oriented our friendships and the vocabulary that we use, that our outlook on things. And we wound up working very, very closely, very intensively for a couple of years. And then a shocking thing happened that we had the opportunity to stand out and create our own firm. And the genesis of Legatum happened around the table with all four of us basically saying, what do we want to do? Not just with our business, but with our lives? How can we use this business and this organization as a vehicle for purpose and for meaning, and to kind of focus on what David Brooks would call the eulogy virtues rather than the resume virtues in life. You know, when you cross over, you want to hear well done, good and faithful servant. What does that look like for your life? And that was an active part of the conversation. So we thought, well, number one, we want to keep doing what we’re doing. We want to build and run a world class investment organization. We want to multiply our capital, not necessarily play it safe and conserve capital. That multiply capital. We believe God is a God of multiplication and everything is possible. So with that kind of piece in place and that is part of our aspiration, then it was, okay, now if we multiply our capital, how are we going to use those resources in a way that we think are meaningful and positive and helpful? And that’s where Legatum, mission statement was born. A lot of companies have mission statements. We kind of feel like we carved ours out of stones right at the outset and it has never changed. So we’re 20 years into this and Legatum mission has remained the same, and that is to generate and allocate the capital and ideas that can help others prosper and that word prosper and prosperity for us, just given our beliefs, has a holistic nature to it. Prosperity is like the biblical principle of shalom, prosper, your soul, prospers, prosper to all the ways that are meaningful and in a life well live in your relationships, in the opportunities pursued, in the responsibilities that you have within your family, within your community, within your nation. So that was it. And, you know, that was the beginning of the story. But everything that happened afterwards was an expression of that authentic mission statement that I can go through and tell you about. I’m sure during podcast will kind of unpack what we have done. But the thing that follows now, you know the why and. Kind of what we set out to do and everything that follows. It’s been a journey of just trying things, failing, adapting, learning, trying to do better. A lot of things haven’t worked, but a few have and have really scaled the things that have really come to exemplify that original mission.

Luke Roush: One of the things that I’ve really admired is that you all were contrarian before. It was popular to be contrarian, and there are some bets and some investments that you guys have made in specific areas of the world. You’re a global firm. You said, I think in Dubai, split time between there in London, but you’re active globally. Maybe just take our listeners down a bit of the walk that you all have been on. I think it’s appropriate to start with the why and maybe kind of translate into the what you all have been working on over the last 20 years.

Mark Stoleson: Yeah, absolutely. So because we started and are investors, we can’t help it. We’ve got an investors lens that we use for everything that we do. So we think about capital allocation, we think about return on investment. And so within our investment business, you know, it’s proprietary capital that makes us a little bit unique. Obviously, our mission and our relationships, this partnership with four individuals has lasted for two decades. That’s unique. The mission is unique. The fact that we have proprietary capital is unique. It’s a huge blessing. What it enables us to do is invest with a long term perspective and actually follow that through. And so a lot of people talk about that. We know that, you know, just the power of compounding over time being patience and investments is really valuable, but not everyone can do that. So if you’ve got a fund life, you have to return capital to investors or you have redemptions. You know, you face forced selling at just the most inopportune times. We’re super blessed and fortunate that we don’t have to do that. And so throughout not just Legatum’s history, but our prior firm, we would find that we could make some of our best investment decisions when everyone else is panicking, when everyone else is fearful, when markets are roiling. And you see this major disconnect between the actual value and the price of something. And it requires a lot of discipline. Even when you have proprietary capital, it requires discipline and sort of intestinal fortitude to deploy capital when markets are really shaking. But we’ve been able to do that well. So one example, just one small example was in Covid, where we watched the situation unfolding. We watched not just markets, but nations just panicking. We did our research and when we do it, investors do. We started to read. We started to research and started the thing. And our contention was, I mean, we’re not scientists, we’re not PhDs, but just using common sense, using our own experience, using our faith. We looked at and thought this could be bad, but it’s probably not going to be as bad as is sort of current market prices are reflecting. And so, you know, we always carry some dry powder and some cash and we were down. I mean, our fund must have been down 25%, you know, in March, maybe February, March, April ish. And we had one position that was down over 50%. So we were definitely seeing the mark to market repercussions of all of this emotion and sentiment. But we did something that when Legatum does well, this is how we do it. We went 100% invested and for one of I think, twice in the last 20 years we borrowed money to invest, but we took a little bit of margin and just plowed it all in our existing portfolio. We know those businesses very well. We know everything about them. We know where their value lies. Got high conviction in their ability to create value in the long term. And we just went all in and that was one of our best performing years in the last 15 years was 2020. And so that’s zigging when everyone else is zagging. But that’s a great example of us doing what we’re configured to do. We made the opposite mistake and lost patience, and we’ve lost patience. When things go down too much, too fast and we’ve lost patience when they go up too fast, all of our models get stretched in banks, which we don’t. We like financial services and the price to book ratio goes like eight. In a country like India, even if the bank is growing at 100% for a year, we just, you know, we get rattled by that and sell out to it. And so we’ve made those mistakes over time. But one thing that really has taken root within the firm is the virtue of patience. And patience is the choice. And patience is a discipline. But when you actually use it in investment, it’s like a superpower. And so when we’re doing well, we have high conviction. We have a highly concentrated portfolio, and you’ve got a multi-billion dollar portfolio that’s usually invested across less than ten. Names will go narrow and deep, high conviction and intend always to hold for the long term. So it’s a bit like a private equity portfolio, but 50% of it is in the public markets.

John Coleman: Mark, I love that example, especially during COVID when you guys zagged as everyone else was zigging I guess, or zig when people zagged. What are the examples of that right now in your mind? Either countries where you feel like investors have panicked or have exited sectors? It’s still a pretty choppy economy right now, I think globally with inflation, with rising interest rates, with softness in real estate markets, etc.. And so we’re seeing a lot of places that investors are shying away from. Are there any high conviction spaces where you think people have overreacted now that you’re focused on?

Mark Stoleson: It’s a great question. I mean, just for a second, dialing back the talk a little bit, the whole heritage of this firm is in going places that other people don’t want to go. So, you know, in going places, that would be fashionable tomorrow, but that are out of fashion today, whether that’s a company or a country. And so a lot of the history is investing in Brazil. In the 1990s, no one wanted to go there investing in the former Soviet Union. So from the Czech Republic through to Russia during those years over throughout our history, we’ve invested in most countries. So we’ve invested in China and India and in Europe and in North America, South America. So I think if you look around the world today and ask where is the most out-of-favor country for investors, you know, at least somewhere near the top of the list right at this moment would probably be China. And so you have to look at it, study and think really hard. You’re looking at a situation that is driven by politics and geopolitics in addition to just economic fundamentals. That would be the type of place that Legatum would be monitoring, I would say, in looking for opportunities. China is a huge country, huge population. You know, it’s still growing and has, you know, hopefully its best years in front of it and it creates some amazing companies. So it’s a place that we would probably look. But right now when you start to see fear begin to reach sort of a peak stage, you can take your pick. You can find amazing companies in America that are out of favor in certain sectors, whether that’s within the energy sector and other places. So basically anywhere that’s out of favor is a place that we would be keeping a close eye on.

John Coleman: But one of the things I love about you all is the global footprint of the firm. In fact, here in Dubai, I think is your primary home office. I guess, Mark, I had the privilege of living and working in Saudi Arabia for a while and Afghanistan spent a lot of time in Dubai. Obviously, such a fascinating region. At the micro level. How did you decide upon Dubai and what is working as a faith driven investor look like in Dubai? And as you zoom out, how does that influence and shape you as a firm, that global footprint?

Mark Stoleson: Yeah, great question. So the choice of Dubai for Legatum, it was just really pragmatic. Frankly, we don’t have any investments that we own our own building. So we rented out we have tenants […..] and whatnot. But that is really our only investment in the entire region. So Dubai is a bit of a bedroom community for Legatum, but it served us very, very well over time and what we were looking for and we asked ourselves the question every five years or so like, should we still be in Dubai? Because we could be anywhere. But the key drivers of that decision were, you know, number one, we wanted a place where we could recruit and retain world class talent. So where can you find good schools, a good standard of living? It’s a safe place to raise a family. Then we wanted a place that logistically would serve our global footprint. So from Dubai, Dubai now has the world’s busiest airport. You can fly to Hong Kong in 7 hours, London 7 hours, Cape Town in 10 hours. The US is a little bit further, but you can kind of get a lot of places that we want to be and we love to be boots on the ground. Go visit countries, visit companies and really get a close perspective on our portfolio and on opportunities. So that’s a key part of our strategy. So logistically, Dubai is fantastic. And then third is just a really business friendly place. It’s easy to set up a business, it’s easy to run a business. It’s the legal framework. The infrastructure is fantastic. So, you know, we’ve looked around for other places to be, and some have one or two of those attributes, but very few have three. And so we’ve stayed in Dubai. What is it like to be a faith driven investor in Dubai? It’s awesome. Dubai itself is part of a republic. It’s part of a group of smaller sort of emirates. Or little countries within a country, the UAE, the United Arab Emirates. Dubai only has probably 2 million people in it, but it has 200 nationalities that live within Dubai’s. It’s a very cosmopolitan place, very international place, and it’s a very tolerant place. So you can practice your Christian faith. You know, I live on the Palm Jumeirah and I had people that were renting the home across from us or Orthodox Jewish people or who walk around with the yarmulke, you know, kind of traditional Jewish wardrobe. So Dubai is just a very tolerant, very open, very cosmopolitan place. I belong to an amazing church in Dubai. And we found that that type of openness and tolerance made it easier and made it possible for us to retain and recruit amazing professionals as well.

Luke Roush: One of the things that I think also has just attracted so many people to Legatum over the years and has really built, you know, your brand in a way that I think also reflects the faith of the founders is this idea of prosperity and what that looks like in and through your firm and the investments that you make and then how you select investments. So you talk a little bit on your website around the prosperity model and your prosperity ladder framework. Would to have you just unpacked that model, the framework? I think most firms don’t have a theory of change, how their work translates to change that we want to see in the world. But maybe could you take a couple of minutes and just unpack that for us, Mark?

Mark Stoleson: Sure. Absolutely. So if a God whose mission is to help promote prosperity is to help people prosper again, as investors, we want to do our homework and study like, oh, what? How do you make that happen? What are the component parts of prosperity? And we didn’t know literally when we started, we pulled out. I had a yellow legal pad and we were sitting in a room. We were like, I don’t even know what prosperity means. It sounds like money, but what does it mean? So we I went to the Webster’s dictionary and looked it up, and it turned out that prosperity is really multifaceted. It’s got a lot of things going on. And we realized probably we’re going to need some help. So we visited some professors at Oxford University here in the UK. So I’m talking to you from London today. And we got seven professors together who all had like an angle on what’s prosperity. And we asked them to deconstruct prosperity into its component parts and tell us, how do you do it, what’s it made of? And it’s made of the things that we’ve already talked about. But of course it takes wealth, but also what we call wellbeing, which is all this stuff that makes life worthwhile. It’s the quality of your relationships, it’s the amount of opportunity hope, you know. How do you measure hope and how does that get factored into it? Safety, security, health. All of these things. And after we had these genius professors kind of deconstructed it for us, we thought, okay, well, let’s put it all back together and do an assessment like how prosperous is the UK? How prosperous is the US? And once we started to pull on that thread, we thought, Wow, you can actually compare countries against each other. And gosh, if you can do that, that sort of feels like an index. You could have a league table or an index of prosperity of prosperous countries. And so our Legatum Prosperity Index was born on 2007. And looking back on that document today, which Legatum Partners co-wrote together. It looks really amateurish, really, you know, very basic. And over time, we hired an amazing group of folks to do things called regression analyzes and a whole bunch of other super high tech stuff, too. And I think they’ve got 88 different components to our prosperity index. And it’s a very sophisticated look at what drives prosperity on a national level and what restrains prosperity on a national level. And the idea was if we can create that kind of framework. For national leaders and decision makers. That’s a public service. If you’re a national leader who wants to see your country prosper, this can give you a good idea as to how to think about that and maybe where to allocate your time and allocate your resources. So that’s the prosperity index, the prosperity ladder. One of my partners, Alan McCormick, literally just wrote it on a napkin one day because he realized everything we do and the way that we think is about capital allocation and we understand how to allocate capital in the public equity markets. But then there’s sort of private equity and then there’s venture capital and then there’s sort of angel. We’re all familiar with those sort of different strategies of capital allocation. But we realized we’re doing a ton of work just in philanthropic efforts and charitable work, and that has all of the same attributes of capital allocation. You want to do your assessment, you want to allocate capital wisely, you want to look for a return on investment. You need to monitor that. What does an exit look like in philanthropy? And so we wound up just creating that prosperity ladder that we got some amazing feedback from it because it really does just sort of provide this taxonomy of capital flows and capital allocation in these different to meet different needs, basically.

John Coleman: One of the things I love about what you all do is the diversity of investment strategies you’re involved in. And as you mentioned, that even extends into philanthropy. Luke went through some of those at the beginning of the call, just in the different focuses that you all have as legatum. Could you unpack that a little bit and tell us what are those different strategies and why have you all chosen to get into each of those in a way that influences prosperity as you just described?

Mark Stoleson: Yeah, absolutely. So maybe I’ll start just for 2 seconds on the financial investment business. So the way that it’s configured today, it looks a lot like Warren Buffett. It’s got a little bit over 50% of the public equity markets, and that’s on an unlevered basis. We don’t borrow any money, we’re not shorting anything. It’s long on the highly concentrated portfolio and then we probably have about 40% in private equity. And private equity is probably a better fit for Legatum because we don’t feel like we’re traders or even investors. We want to be business builders, business owners, and that’s our mindset in investment. And then probably about ten or 15% of the portfolio is in venture capital. But venture capital is not our wheelhouse. We wouldn’t be good as a venture capital firm, but we do strategically want to be exposed to certain geographies or certain sectors and need a way to do that. And so we have about seven different venture capital fund partners that we’ve allocated capital to because they’re just way better at it. But we want the exposure. So one of the ways that Legatum thinks about investment is what we call as SBI is simple, big ideas. So if you think India is growing at seven or 8% and it’s got a population of over a billion people, there is an SBI, which is the rise of the Indian consumer, how do we express that simple big idea? And then we’ll express it through kind of the sectors that we like that we understand consumer discretionary tech, maybe financial services and banking. So that’s kind of how we think about our core financial investment business. We don’t think a whole lot differently about philanthropy. We want to look for value. We want to look for an outsized return on investment. And to do that kind of guy, go looking in the same types of places, places that are overlooked. So let me give you an example. Luke mentioned the end fund. The end fund stands for Ending Neglected Diseases. And what the end fund is all about is deworming people. So that story started with one of my business partners reading the Financial Times. He discovered that 1.5 billion people around on planet Earth have one or more forms of worms, intestinal worms. They can kill you, they can make you blind, they can make you lame, they can keep kids out of school, keep people away from work. So it has a major harmful effect on the health of a community family nation. You will only find these diseases in the poorest countries on the planet. So you won’t find them in America, you won’t find them in UK, Japan. Why? Because, I mean, all these diseases are global diseases. The worms are everywhere. It’s because in America we deworm people with a pill and we deworm animals as well. And there are a lot of countries that just don’t have access to those pharmaceuticals. So as we did our research, we discovered that pharmaceutical companies were actually, to a large extent, give you the medicine for free. The patents have run out. They don’t make any money out of it, but give it to you if you have a credible plan for kind of supply chain management distribution. Legatum chose two countries, Burundi and Rwanda, and said something that’s never really been done before is what’s called a Mass Drug Administration program on a nationwide level. We thought if working closely with the ministries of health. Those two countries, we just wanted to figure out if you could do a national process over 7 to 10 years, so long term time horizon to control and then eliminate these diseases. And what we found was the results were just off the charts, exceeded all expectations. We found that in some pockets of those countries, you have like 70 or 80% of a local population infected with these diseases. And with two treatments a year, you could get the disease prevalence down into the single digits, even down to zero in some places. So incredible results having proven the model, having de-risked it, which is just again, the investors lens, we thought, well, we don’t have the capital to roll this out to the whole planet, so we’re going to need to collaborate. And the end fund was born out of that spirit we took the Legatum name off of. It wasn’t the Legatum of Deworming initiative anymore. It became the end fund and we invited other donors and investors to join us. And today the End Fund is the world’s largest privately funded deworming campaign. It did over 200 million treatments last year alone. So it’s just it’s operates in over 30 countries. And to me, that kind of the punchline of that story is somebody has to have the risk capital. Somebody has to go out there and risk failing and prove the model. And once you’ve done that, the other part of the story is taking your name off the door, in some ways, opening it up to everyone else and making it something that people can collaborate on and feel a sense of ownership on.

Luke Roush: So, Mark, that’s remarkable story. I mean, 200 million treatments in the last year alone. Just unbelievable. There’s aspects, you know, when I hear you talk and we had a chance to talk a little bit before this as well, when I hear you talk, I mean, we’re talking with you on the Faith Driven Investor podcast, but there’s also a faith driven entrepreneur podcast, and there are elements of you and your partners and how you think about translating simple big ideas that SBI into reality. That really is akin to what we see in venture capital founders. Maybe speak a little bit about just the transformational potential with entrepreneurship and how you and your partners are wading into that idea.

Mark Stoleson: Yeah.

Luke Roush: Different parts of the world on both a for profit and maybe concessionary capital perspective?

Mark Stoleson: I mean, I think we as investors, we just instinctively love entrepreneurs, love the creators and the risk takers. But as we studied, prosperity didn’t take long to realize there is no prosperity in a nation without entrepreneurs. And these are the people that create the opportunities. They create the jobs. They are the engine that drives the ecosystem of finance and that really they are major servants for our national economy and prosperity. And so. But for us, entrepreneurship is even more. And the reason why we set up this Legatum center at MIT and the way that that works is we realize there are brilliant young folks from really, you know, disadvantaged backgrounds or countries that are very poor, just kids that could get into MIT but can’t afford it and have a bench or a calling to entrepreneurship. And we thought, gosh, if we can kind of come alongside them and just with a little bit of funding, give them access to that level of education and that level of network. And if they go back to their country, they’ll start a business, they’ll run a huge business. They may want to be running the whole country. And if during their time at M.I.T. as a Legatum fellow, if we could also give them a vision for the power and the virtue of entrepreneurship. So if they wind up in a position of political power and authority, maybe they can play a part in sort of removing obstacles and sort of paving the way so the more entrepreneurs will serve that society and drive more prosperity for everyone. That was the thesis behind setting that up. And the reason for that is when we look at entrepreneurs, we feel like and again, you know, entrepreneurs are people and people are are flawed. But big picture to us, entrepreneurship represents a basket of values, right? I mean, these are people who want to be creative and people who will put themselves out there and fail and then adapt and try again. So you’ve got perseverance, you’ve got patience, you’ve got audacity and boldness. There are so many. Character attributes that are so good about entrepreneurs that you just want to see, you know, spread out. You want to see sort of leavening a whole society, a culture of a society. So we love entrepreneurs because they do great stuff and create opportunities and jobs. But we love the idea of entrepreneurship too, because of what it represents in terms of values.

John Coleman: Going back to the global nature of your firm, Mark, in the way that you work with such a variety of people. I mean, you even just described it in things like the end project that you’re working on, where you’re working across countries. This is the Faith Driven Investor podcast from a Christian perspective. But we’ve also highlighted Jewish investors here. We’ve got a muslim investor coming up. You’re working alongside people of all belief systems in the work that you do. Any advice for folks on just navigating that as a person of Christian faith, working well with those who are sincerely motivated by other value systems or in a diverse environment where those value systems are represented?

Mark Stoleson: Absolutely. So Legatum has sort of three basic core principles that everyone signs up to and animates everything that we do. And the first one is excellence and elegance. And the second one is culture of honor. And the third one is flawless compliance. So because we operate in lots of different countries and lots of different cultures and lots of different sectors as well, whether you’re deworming kids in Africa or you’re deploying capital in the Japanese banks, you know, for us flawless compliance means you say, well within the safe zone, the right side of the line at all times, no exceptions. And we’ve got a team that’s, like you said, in London and in Dubai and also, you know, in the US and other places. So that’s really important. But the key, the twin kind of heartbeats of Legatum are really excellence and elegance and a culture of honor. And with excellence and elegance. It’s not just being, you know, masters of our craft, like really always looking to improve, always looking to do better in terms of how we invest and just how we conduct ourselves. The elegance part is we want it to be beautiful, but we want the relationships to be beautiful. We want our work product to be beautiful. We want them got a brand and what it represents to be not just excellent, but also beautiful. And the culture of honor is probably the most important part of what makes Legatum and I think really special and what makes it so effective in different cultures and with different faith traditions, because we don’t feel like it’s our role to tell anyone how to think or what to do. We come to serve it in the posture of a servant of wanting to come alongside people and help and contribute and honor other people. And that starts I mean, it starts at home for us. That means that starts within the Legatum team and within the Legatum family. And so something that we pay a lot of attention to is how are we treating each other? How do we make decisions? And culture always comes from the top. And within Legatum the top is the partnership of these four individuals, and we take a very intentional and disciplined approach to maintaining right relationships with each other. A couple of principles that really stood the test of time for us. One is what we call the power of agreement. And what that means to us is that we want to move in unity at all times. So especially with anything material for the firm, it doesn’t mean that we have to agree on everything. But if we wind up in a situation or a decision that we’re discussing that we need to take and we’re not in agreement, we make the highest priority to be in unity regardless of whatever we decide. And the second is what we call keeping short of counts. And so when you walk a journey with anyone, whether it’s in a marriage or a business relationship for two decades, you’re going to have good days and bad days. You’re going to misunderstand each other, you’re going to offend each other. It’s human experience. But the one thing we can do is keep short of counts and to raise issues quickly, not let things fester, not let any sort of bitterness take root, forgive each other and move on and just be very, very intentional about that. So when you see those principles, really something that we make a big priority with in the partnership, you can see it fed through the entire organization and the culture of honor that we strive to live by.

Luke Roush: I think those are great tips, Mark, and great stories of how you and your partners over 20 plus years have been able to stay together, stay unified, you know, engage in the merits when hard decisions need to be made, but ultimately come out and move in unity. I like that a lot. One of the things that we like to do at the end of each podcast is just take time to hear what the Lord is saying to you in and through Scripture. Sure. And how that maybe impacts your work and leadership of Legatum. So maybe just take a few minutes and share what the Lord is teaching you right now in this season.

Mark Stoleson: Well, I mean, two things that come to mind that are really sort of top of mind right now. And I’m sort of pondering why the Lord is raising these things now. But one is, you know, in Isaiah when it talks about the prophesying, the coming of the Christ is prophesying the coming of Jesus, and it says the government will be on his shoulders and it talks about these attributes. And one of them is that he’s the Prince of peace. And we normally hear those words around Christmas time. But for whatever reason, I feel like God really put that on my heart recently. And I think what he’s saying and I’m still really sort of noodling on this, is something about the importance of just good governance, good governance, good governments, good leadership, and whether that’s in your family or whether that’s in your organization, whether that’s in a nation, there’s this connection between good government, Christlike government and peace. Like if you’re not seeing peace, there’s probably a link to the quality of the government. And that’s really struck me because as a leader and as a leader of leaders within our organization, leaders have different personalities. And some people are more by confrontation, easier calling people out, calling people higher. Other people really are just more wired for harmony and they don’t want to confront things. And it’s something that I’m working on with some of our young leaders is just the necessity as a leader to bring peace. But sometimes you have to bring peace by raising the tough issues, by calling things out, by holding people accountable, by making it clear what you will tolerate and what you will not tolerate as a leader. And that’s hard. That can be awkward, that can be uncomfortable, that can make you unpopular, that can make you lonely. And yet it’s totally fundamental and necessary as a leader. So this link between good government, like Christlike government, I just for some reason I was really struck by that. The government’s on his shoulders and, you know, there will come a time when every new about every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. When that happens, we will experience what that level of peace looks like because we’ll be living under his government alone. And it’s awesome. But I feel like it’s part of our role, not just as believers, as Christians, but as leaders to do our part to try to bring heaven to earth, to try to bring some of that within the authority that we have been entrusted with. So that’s one. And if we’ve got time, I’ll give you the second one. Second one, it does go to the power of unity again. And, you know, I’ve been really reflecting just on when Jesus talks about how his disciples will be known, it’s that you will be known not by what you achieve, but you will be known by your love for one another. Yeah, that’s how people are going to know that they’re Christians. That’s how the people are going to see a reflection of Christ those other people are going to encounter. The Divine is through our love for one another. And so even within the bottom context, even though the God him is not an evangelical Christian organization, we have people of all faiths and no faith that work within Legatum, and are very successful within Legatum. But that’s the perfume that I want to see coming out of the God is a love for each other and a love for humanity and a love for our neighbor. And that through that, I feel confident that God will make itself known, that his presence will be revealed if we love one another. But as a corollary to that, I just have noticed over two decades of doing this with my partners that when we are in unity, I feel like something spiritually powerful is unlocked and we can see it in fruit and in the oil of God’s favor in the activities. It’s almost like you get the relationships and it’s almost like it’s not always the case, but it feels like good things happen. And when you’re in disunity and disharmony, it feels like it just at least for us, it feels like it has a a restricting effect or almost feels like a kind of cauterize is God’s favor. And so it’s something that it’s just hugely important to get over yourself, make things right and run. Don’t walk back to a place of unity.

John Coleman: Mark That’s an encouraging word. We’re really encouraged by the work that you’re doing at Legatum and around the world. I’m really hoping to get to visit some time on a trip to Dubai. Luke It seems like we’re probably overdue for a trip out there, but just really thankful that you would come on today and share your insights and the insights of your firm with the Faith Driven Investor podcast and with the audience that we’re reaching. So thank you so much for being here today and for the work that you’re doing.

Mark Stoleson: John Luke Guys, thank you. Not just for this time, but thank you for what you’re doing with the faith driven investor, faith driven entrepreneur, the whole movement that you guys are stewarding. It’s super important. I hope that this is useful for someone out there as they hear it. And you’re both more than welcome in Dubai. We look forward to your visit.

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What does it look like to lead in the midst of chaos, brokenness, and division?

The recent events in Israel and Gaza have made the brokenness of the world even more acute and visible.

There are a lot of thoughtful places where you might go to find perspective on politics, faith or even breaking news, but we wanted to bring something different to the table.

We’ve brought on two friends of the Faith Driven Movement, Mordechai Wiseman and Bader Mansour, to talk about what it’s like to lead businesses in the face of tragedy.

Bader Mansour is the founder of NAZDAQ, a company that develops data solutions in Nazareth. He comes from a unique perspective as both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen. Most importantly, he identifies a follower of Jesus of Nazareth. 

As an executive for a network of 17 churches and one of the founders of a local seminary, Bader is also a recognized national leader within the Arab-speaking Christian community.

Mordechai Wiseman runs an investment fund and a consulting firm, and is the founder and chairman of Israel Firstfruits, an economic development agency for the local community of faith in Israel. He is also founder of the Messianic Business Fellowship, which is the only national network for marketplace believers in Israel, both Jews & Arabs. 

The two have worked together for many years, have a deep relationship that transcends ethnic roots, and are rooted in their love for Jesus. 

They graciously joined the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast for a conversation about how their faith has informed their perspectives on leadership, identity, and the current conflict. 

Find out more about the work they’re doing in this video that premiered at the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySOzMWsSc3U

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman, your host, and I wanted to float something new with you today. Usually we dedicate the first episode of the month to a feature we call marks on the markets. But this month, instead of focusing on the macro investing environment, we wanted to highlight a recent episode released at faith driven entrepreneur between an entrepreneur and investor based in Israel. The tragedy of the Hamas terror attacks, the rise of global antisemitism and the resulting war in the region that made the brokenness of the world even more acute. Invisible. So we wanted to invite some two leaders who had become friends of the faith driven movement. Bader Mansour is the founder of Nazdaq, with the Z, a company that develops solutions in Nazareth. He’ll get more into this, but he comes from a unique perspective as a Palestinian and also an Israeli citizen. But most importantly, as a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, as an executive for a network of 17 churches and one of the founders of a local seminary, Bader is also recognized national leader within the Arab speaking Christian community. Mordechai Weisman is the founder and chairman of Israel First Fruits, an economic development agency for the local community of faith in Israel. He is also the founder of the Messianic Business Fellowship, which is the only national network for Marketplace believers in Israel, both Jews and Arabs. He’s a Jewish Israeli follower of Yeshua Jesus. Like most Israeli Jews, he served in the Israeli Defense Forces. His son is currently serving as well, and we are keeping his son in our thoughts and prayers. Let’s listen to that conversation.

Rusty Rueff: Hey, everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guest may maintain positions in the companies of securities. Discussed in this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We have a special edition today. I’m here with Rusty. And Rusty and I are going to wade into this amazing scene that’s going on right now in the Middle East. We are not going to be talking much at all about politics. This is not what we do here. This is a podcast that is meant to help the Body of Christ, particularly business owners and entrepreneurs, understand how much God loves them and what he is inviting them to as they participate in the marketplace. There are times when that mission that we were all on might seem relatively easy. It might seem sometimes when that mission is hard, there are times when the yoke is light, sometimes when it is heavy. But for today, we had this incredible opportunity to have this perspective of two dear brothers that we’ve known now for years. As Rusty said in the intro, we featured them on some great video stories for context, and they’ve graciously allowed us to spend some time with them as they process where God has them and how they are seeing him at work. The questions they have, the prayers they’re lifting up, and it’s a special privilege to be with them for their perspectives about all of those things. Hopefully with gold today that we will all know more about how God loves us and we would accept the invitation to participate in the work that He’s doing, building the world when it is easy and when it is hard, when there are clear points for us to follow and when things are a little bit muddier. So today we go to Israel with Mordy and Bader. Gentlemen, good morning. Thank you so much for being with us. I know it’s been a crazy couple of weeks. Mordy, I’m going to start with you. I know that you get a sense this summer we were at the Christian Economic Forum together and you were starting to really feel keenly that something was afoot. You’re troubled. You very eloquently shared with us at the Christian Economic Forum what was going on in Israel. And now we found ourselves a couple of months later in a precarious situation that you and and your friend Bader right in the middle of. And Mordy, what are you thinking about this evening? Israel time. What’s going on?

Mordechai Wiseman: Thank you, Henry. It’s a privilege and an honor to share with the FDE community. Yeah, It always seems like life in the Middle East is pregnant. There’s something’s going on or something’s about to happen. But it’s definitely, for me, at least since really early 2022 even 2021, there’s this growing sense of apprehension in terms of what’s lying ahead. And as you shared really with this latest government and some of the internal processes within Israel, I’ve been feeling grieved at things that I knew were coming but were hard to observe in real time sort of emerging before us. And then this crisis broke out eight days ago. And I think Israelis in general are reeling because we’ve never faced something quite like this and comes after eight months of internal conflict, nine months of internal conflict. So I guess the pressure of feeling squeezed now for a while, feeling like God is moving us in a, yeah, undeniable way towards a certain direction, and then a real spike in pressure. Actually not a lot of fun, but we have to trust that God is squeezing out of us things that He is seeking to either remove or to produce from our lives. I’m just hoping I’m producing light in salt.

Henry Kaestner: As you process all of this. You’re doing this in the midst of a number of family, including your son. You served in the IDF. Your son is in the IDF. What what are you praying for?

Mordechai Wiseman: My first prayer is mercy. The enemy seeks to steal, kill and destroy, and war is his favorite tool. And yet God will use the schemes of the enemy to advance his kingdom. He turns evil to good, and he will. So we have to believe that despite everything that is going on, God is doing something profound. And yet all we can do is pray for mercy. Pray for to be given the strength to stand up under the pressure to be used for good rather than participate in the orgy of death. It’s easy to get drawn into the male storm of pain and suffering and trauma. And to some degree, that’s what being in the world, yet not of it means. It means that we mourn with those who mourn. We feel the pain of our people. And yet we also have a different identity and a different reality that is within us. And that’s easy to say. It’s very hard to walk through. So, yeah, I’m a veteran and actually my son is the fourth generation of our family serving in the Israeli military. And it’s easy to worry. It’s not just.

Henry Kaestner: I would imagine it is.

Mordechai Wiseman: Yes. I mean, I have literally dozens and dozens of my friends serving right now of our tiny congregation of 400 people. Over 50 are under arms right now, either as enlisted or reservists. So it’s easy to surrender, to fear or worry. And it’s that daily choice to look to the Lord and trust him that he is in control. And it’s really not how do I change circumstances, but how do I respond in a way that glorifies God?

Henry Kaestner: Mordy, thank you, Bader I’m going to ask the same of you. Such a privilege to have you, as Rusty mentioned in the intro and your story at the most recent conference. So gave me more of a perspective of what it looks like to be a Palestinian Christian in Nazareth. How are you processing this? What are you praying for?

Bader Mansour: It has been a very heartbreaking situation, you know, being a Palestinian and an Israeli. At the same time, my news feed is mixed with Israeli sources and Palestinian sources for a long time. So first of all, there is the grief and the sadness of all the people that have been killed in the massacre that happened just Saturday, You know, watching the news. Heartbreaking. I have lots of friends that lost loved ones. Also from the Israeli side, it has been very heavy on us here. At the same time being, I have maybe the privilege or maybe the the problem of belonging to these two troubled people, you know, So I am also a Palestinian. I am also in grief for my Palestinian people as well, that first of all, this was something they produced, you know, something horrible like this. At the same time, we are seeing the developments that are happening, the war and that is going on, you know, in Gaza and also the innocent people being killed. And at the same time looking at the whole situation and the whole history, it’s not a you know, this is I don’t see this as event in itself. You know, this is a continuation of my own life. And then before I was born of a conflict, you know, in this country what I am and it has been very heavy. We are praying, Lord, for mercy, you know, on the people of Israel, mercy on the people of Gaza and the whole people of this region, you know, on the Palestinians, also on the West Bank, on the people who are also in the surrounding countries. We are praying that this will not escalate into a larger war. We are praying for our safety. You know, Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens don’t serve in the army. So I don’t have immediate family in the army. But we are afraid. We are afraid. Our prayers are for the Lord to have mercy and to send peacemakers. We need more peacemakers to come and help us. We probably couldn’t solve it ourselves, and we need people to come and help us get this whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict resolved in such a way that maybe we couldn’t do it on our own. We need help. So this is what I am praying for God to send more peacemakers and for the peacemaker himself to intervene and be with us at this time.

Rusty Rueff: Amen. Amen. You know, we live in this as we as Henry said, we live in this complex time. Mordy and Bader, you guys are right in the middle of probably one of the most complex issues going on right now in the world. At the same time, we have a background that’s really developing all over the world around a sense of identity. You know, where does our identity reside? And we’ve mentioned, you know, the two of you come from very different backgrounds, Bader you are Palestinian Israeli, Mordy, you’re a Jewish Israeli. Can you share with us, both of you, how your faith has helped you think differently about those who have different worldly identities? You talk a little bit about that Mordy Do you want to start first?

Mordechai Wiseman: Well, I think, again, just to provide a little bit more nuance. Israel’s home not merely to Jews and Arabs, but actually both on the Jewish side and the Arab side, identities are highly complex. I won’t speak to all the Arab community, but you have Muslim Arabs, you have Christian Arabs, the Bedouins, Druze and the Jewish side. You have people from not only that were native born or born in this land, but who’ve come from dozens of countries. And we have Jews from what we would call Middle Eastern background or Sephardic. We have European Jews, we have Orthodox and so many different identities mixed in that even the idea of Israeli is highly complex. Now, as a believer, I’m not only Israeli and I’m not only a Jew and I’m not only an Ashkenazi Jew and belong within even other subgroups within Israel, but as a follower of Yeshua, I have this sort of overarching identity and we tend to think of things I think in hierarchical. And I sometimes I find that it’s unhelpful to say, Oh, my citizenship is in heaven. So that kind of like vetos, all the other identities, I think that’s not helpful actually in daily life. And we see in Revelation chapter seven, verse nine, that people from every nation, tribe and language will be standing before the throne. God created our ethnic identities, created our cultural identities. And so my kingdom identity, my identity as a Jew who follows Yeshua infuses is at the center of all those other identities, informs them, hopefully transforms them, redeems those and that richness, the diversity that God created and making us so different then gets elevated perhaps through our kingdom identity. And sometimes it’s a veto. Sometimes there’s something in my background that is just wrong. There’s a cultural sin, a heritage that we hold on to that is just not pleasing to the Lord and that needs to be removed. But more often than not, it’s something that needs to be fixed or healed or redeemed because the root of it comes from God. So maybe that’s overly theoretical, but as a believer, for example, I’m a combat guy, right? I’m a veteran. My son serves in the army. There’s a side of me that understands the need to fight against those who have a murderous worldview. And yet, as a child of God, highly aware of my own sin, to recognize that these Hamas terrorists are people who need God, they’re sick in the sense that they were raised on hate. We’re raised to believe that their highest calling is to not only die, but to kill for Allah. And, you know, the highest prayer for them would be that they would get revelation and be saved. Just as Saul of Tarsus very sincerely persecuted the early church. And yet I also recognize that I have a mandate to protect those who cannot protect themselves. And so here I am, a combat veteran. Jesus says blessed are the peacemakers, right? I have a calling to protect those around me, and yet I have to pray for their salvation, even as I have to take a step in standing against them. It’s that complexity in that nuance that is not immediately resolvable in the here and now. And yet I have to see God to, in every given moment, respond in a way that honors him. So that’s how my faith informs my identities.

Rusty Rueff: As beautiful as beautifully said, I mean, I’m really I’m emotionally struck there by what you said about Saul of Tarsus. And I think, boy, I wish we could stop. And everybody just think about that more often, that if you were a Christian at that time. Right. And you’re watching Saul and what he did, that there were people who were praying for him. Right. There must have been people who were praying to God, remove this person. Remove this person. And that his conversion from Saul to Paul, the blinding of the light, could have also been an answer to someone’s prayers. Never would have framed that without you speaking about that. Thank you so much for that. Bader anything to add here?

Bader Mansour: Yes, I think, you know, also my identity is probably more complicated. But, you know, I’m an Israeli and most of my, you know, newspapers or television I watch is Israeil television? I read Israeli newspapers, I speak Hebrew fluently. I’m an Israeli. I have lots of Israeli friends. And so I have lots of love to my country. I care about my country. At the same time, I am a Palestinian. Palestinians in 1948 were scattered. Some became refugees in the Gaza Strip, some became refugees in Lebanon and Jordan and some the West Bank and some stayed in Israel. I am one of them. You know, my parents in 1948 became Israeli citizens. So I am also an Israeli citizen, but yet I am a Palestinian. So I also have this sympathy and love to my people. You know, I love my country, but I love my people as well and feel for my people. And I also, you know, my prayer language or my home language is Arabic. And, you know, I am Christian Arab, but I also have lots of, you know, Muslim Arab friends and some are also religious, some are less religious. And I also read a lot of newspapers in Arabic and feed and have friends everywhere, also in Gaza, also in the West Bank, also everywhere. So to being able to see also the point of view of the Palestinians and trying to understand if there could be anything to be understood about this whole, I would say, barbaric attack. But at the same time, why did it happen and why did these people I don’t think these people came just because they wanted to kill. It’s part of a complex situation that has been going on for a long time with lots of injustice and neglecting the Palestinian cause for so many years by insisting that these people can be there for 16 years in a big jail and nobody cares about them, and seeing the world move on and they are still there, nothing. Nobody cares about them. So I don’t justify what they did. Try to understand what’s going on and what hope these people have and trying to have empathy for the people of Gaza in addition to the people of Israel. So as a follower of Jesus, I look at this in such a way, you know, you know, I’m not trying to give two points of view here. I’m trying to say that, you know, in addition to all this, I am a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, where most people in this country, you know, the 14 million people or 15 million people that live from the river to the sea, both Palestinians and Jews, most of them don’t know Jesus. They need Jesus badly. So what is my role as a follower of Jesus in this whole thing? And, you know, can a few thousand people make any difference in this whole craziness that’s going on? So I see my role as the follower of Jesus is to follow the footsteps of Jesus and whatever I do by showing love to everybody, by showing empathy like Jesus would meet the mother of the dead son, and will go and speak to her show love to these people and these people, and also spread the good news of Jesus that he is the savior of the universe, savior of the world. He loves us and he wants the best for all of us. And this is our calling. You know, it’s hard to do it these days, but at the same time, this is why we are here, to stand up for showing the love of Christ for everybody around us.

Rusty Rueff: So I want to go a little deeper into this because I’m going to frame this in a way when people have differing views and they bring that into the workplace, which we see more and more of happening. I was joking with somebody other day. I said, I’m old enough to remember when we didn’t talk politics or religion in the workplace. Right. And today, which I’m very happy that we can share our faith in the workplace. We also share here in the United States, we start to share our political views in the workplace. And our political views have been divisive in many ways. Yet you all are in a situation where you must live and work together with people who have much, much different views. Views that actually are beyond just opinions have turned into actions. Can you share your insights for other faith driven entrepreneurs about how best to live and work together with those who have very, very differing views and not only differing views for the short term, but for the long term because, you know, we pray for shalom, we pray for peace in the Middle East. And these wars, they seem to you know, they come, they go. They never really go away, but it becomes acute and then it becomes less acute. You have to go back and work together and live together. So you have a unique perspective I think you can share for our listeners on how to work together, live together with very, very differing views. Help us with that.

Bader Mansour: It’s just something about, you know, here in Israel, you know, I’m also a little bit old here in Israel, and we spoke politics and religion at the workplace before you. You know, I worked also in America where we couldn’t talk politics here. We talk politics all the time. You know, it’s part of life here at the workplace. So when I worked in an Israeli company that was 400 Jews and one Palestinian, I was the first Arab to join the company. You know, it was a tough at the beginning, lots of prejudice, like, you know, a Palestinian in our company. Who’s this guy? What’s the story? And lots of heated discussions at work talking about differences. But I think this is where our role as agents of change, as people who are followers of Jesus, comes into the place where we can show a different face of our people, because people don’t know, you know, the Jews I worked with never met an Arab other than maybe somebody at the gas station. So they finally meet an Arab engineer and they talk to him. And I also did not have these close relationships with Jews at the time. So when people begin to talk and I think if we bring the ethics of the kingdom into our discussions where we also show respect, we can make change. It’s probably small, you know, it’s one person at a time or, you know, a few people. But I think this is where it has been challenging. But we grow together. Sadly, when we have war, we go back, you know, the tensions go high. People have very strong opinions and things go back. You know, the relationships can be very hard. But I think if we live together, we know that we are going to work together. We have the same goal and we can talk and we disagree. Like, you know Mordechai and I we can disagree about many things, but we can still be brothers in Christ and friends. So softness, empathy, love to one another. And that could be a way forward, in my opinion.

Henry Kaestner: That was that was beautiful. Maybe 80% of our listeners are listening to us in the United States and wondering what does this conflict have to do with them? And you just showed very much so. I mean, you know, one person of Arab extraction in a larger majority spot and sometimes Christ followers feel that way in the marketplace today. Now, a lot of our audience, most of our audience entrepreneurs and business owners, where they had this opportunity to set the culture. And I also think that in addition to just struggling with what does it look like to share our faith when some way and the reason for the hope we have and amidst a discussion with people of differing views, there’s also, I think, this sense in America of, you know, I just I just want to run my business. I want to grow my company. I want to grow 20% year over year, maybe quarter over quarter and cash. All this political stuff is just really just an inconvenient hindrance to me achieving my dream. Because what I’m really trying to do and I’m casting some disparagement against some folks generally here with hopefully that this ends up being encouraging in this appropriate level of challenge, which is, look, there’s a real battle here and it’s not against flesh and blood, it’s against evil and it’s in the marketplace. And God chose this for such a time as this. And we can see some of these things happen in Bible studies. We see this in our scriptural reading, and yet there’s this reminder that you guys are living through things right now, that there is a world at war and God chose us for a time. Is this and this concept of maybe coasting to our funeral and running our businesses and maybe we have triple the growth and we hand it to the next generation and we go ahead and we retire and we play golf and we move to the beach and God calls us home. You guys are live in a different narrative. You’re not thinking about. Well, maybe I’ll work a couple more years and I can kind of cash out and get that country club on the Red Sea or on the Med. Right. I mean, there’s some beautiful beaches in Israel, but you guys aren’t thinking about that right now. You think that guys put you on Earth for a different type of mission? You guys have both spent a lot of time in America, and I don’t want you to, you know, just unfairly rattle the cages of a Western entrepreneur. But what are you learning about faith and mission and purpose and where God has called you in a way that might be relevant for somebody who’s not in the battle right now? Maybe. But how do you reflect on that? You’ve been in a war zone for so long and yet you interact so much with folks in America and the West that don’t have the same type of perspective? What would be an encouragement or challenge to them as they look to learn more about the living God through their work?

Mordechai Wiseman: Well, let me take a swing at that. Trying to tie the previous question to that last statement, I think they’re linked. Even if let’s say you’re not as informed or as mission driven to impact culture. If you are merely just trying to be successful and close to retirement, you would have to still acknowledge that. In these days, usually wealth is created through people, and people form culture, and politics is merely an expression of our culture. And so when the debate is about who’s right and wrong, and that’s what we’re fighting over, and we believe that actually our propositional truth will achieve victory, convinced someone to come to our side, then we get into all kinds of trouble. And in the Middle East, when we recognize that we could talk all day, we’ve been talking for thousands of years and, you know, necessarily convinced each other that truth needs to be incarnational. So that’s why Jesus showed up in the flesh that my calling as an entrepreneur is to engage people. And in fact, the way I produce value and hopefully the value that I attempt to produce is fundamentally around the flourishing of human beings around them encountering God and his kingdom. I can’t convince them of that. I can’t argue them into that state. What I can do is be curious about them to actually try to understand who they are. Why do they take the way they do? This is really how we have to handle conflict here in the Middle East. We’re not going to win when I walk with my Arab and Palestinian brethren. Our organization of first fruits, our board, our staff and the people we serve are Jews and Arabs and Gentiles. We do not agree on a lot of stuff, and yet we have a commitment to walk together. We have a commitment to care for each other and to care with each other for others. And so truth is no longer a club in the sense of hitting people over the head, but rather truth is incarnational. And truth is how I engage you. And how do I want to understand why you are the way you are, why you behave the way you do? Not so I can convince you that I’m right and you’re wrong, but rather that I could show love, that I could see how God might have called us to walk together. And I believe that entrepreneurs who get that will build better cultures. So it’s not even about politics. It’s about creating a culture of listening, of caring, of engaging people. When we do that, we build not only organizations that are more effective, but we are the outcome that we wish to produce, which is people that care about people, people who invest in people. And then our unity is not about uniformity or agreeing on a set of principles, but rather the choice to walk together, which is what marriage is two people that are different, that don’t agree and yet choose to produce life together, to do life and produce life together.

Henry Kaestner: That was beautiful. Mordy Thank you. Bader

Bader Mansour: Yes. I wanted to be answered a little bit differently about, you know, I think most entrepreneurs here who are, you know, followers of Jesus and also others, I think, have a deep passion to do something a little bit different than just making a successful company. They want to see change in the society they are in at Nasdaq. You know, most of the people here serve in the church or in some kind of para church organization. And we see this is part of our calling, not just to make software and, you know, build the great company, which we are, but also to make change as Christians in our sphere and our society. And I think a lot of people also in America are, you know, faith driven entertainers and others as well who have a deep passion to help others. I like to mention a story that touched my heart. And I actually broke my heart a few days ago. One of the entrepreneur, he’s a Jew and Israeli Jew, one of the most successful entrepreneurs in Israel. Eyal Waldman, he is the founder of Mellanox. Somebody I admire because he has built a very strong company in Israel. And he has been also one of these companies who hired lots of Palestinians also to work in his company. Some of the managers in the company are also Palestinians, which is not taken for granted in Israel. But he also decided to open a branch in Gaza Strip and also opened a branch in the West Bank. And few days ago, his daughter was killed in the barbaric attack during the party and all that was going on near the of the Gaza border. He went and he found his daughter. And I don’t know him, but when I read this, I cried and I went home to sleep, you know, just like I was so devastated. And he said, I still believe in peace. I still believe in peace. And I tried to find his email and sent him a note, you know, just an encouragement and condolences. Lots of people here in Israel, you know, have passion to see a different kind of Israel and a different kind of situation, you know, going on here. We as faith driven entrepreneurs are called to do more on this. You know, I admire my friends at first fruit that are doing excellent work, you know, bringing Arabs and Jews together, working together and you know, others as well. So I think entrepreneurs usually in these places have passion. And I think lots of people all around the world have passion to see change in their societies. Here it’s a bit about conflict and about these kind of things, you know, because we are, in essence, a war zone. But, you know, I encourage all entrepreneurs to take a stand on a subject that they care for and do something about it. In addition to cashing out a great company and going to play golf, you know, the Pacific Ocean.

Rusty Rueff: So I want to switch gears for just a bit and talk a little bit about running a business in these kinds of moments, right, in these moments of crisis. So you’re both entrepreneurs. Just give us practical advice. How do you continue to lead a business during the midst of these situations going on in the background like the ones you’re facing?

Mordechai Wiseman: Well, I don’t know if I can give good advice. I can tell you what I did, which is initially I just gave myself another 10 minutes in bed. I just to collect myself and more seriously, recognizing that it’s so easy to throw yourself in. And in the moment of crisis, in the season of crisis, there’ll be many times that as a leader, you’re called to step up and step into the gap. But if you’re the only one doing that and you’re doing that constantly, you will not be around when sort of there, the key moment arrives. So you also have to pace yourself and you have to recognize you cannot win every battle and you don’t have to be the only person who steps into the breach. As an entrepreneur, you’re called to galvanize, and yet in order to galvanize. So you have to be able to lead by example. You often are the first to step up. You also have to acknowledge, though, you’re human. There’s nothing, in my opinion, more powerful in leadership than a vulnerable leader who, rather than being the He-Man or the she man or she woman or, you know, the one who seems to have all the answers and is always like, you know, once more to the breach, my friends, they first acknowledge that they’re afraid, that it’s hard, that they’re hurting, that they’re frustrated. If you don’t acknowledge humanity, it’s hard for people to follow you. That’s my experience as a military guy in the Israeli army. They do not follow you if they don’t trust you and they don’t trust you, if they don’t relate to you, if they don’t believe that you understand who they are and understand the risks that they’re about to take following you. And so listening, feeling, being vulnerable about our own feelings and expressing our pain, and then when everyone else is stuck and kind of like then stepping up and taking decisive action, being bold in your stance, galvanizing, and that shocks people out of that kind of place of I don’t know what to do and they will follow you. So you have to be first human and then you have to be leader. That’s sort of the pattern that I’ve seen effective in these times. And knowing that the crisis is not going to be momentarily. You need to have good oxygen. You have to assess how long is this going to happen, go on, and therefore pace yourself as well.

Rusty Rueff: I’m going to come to Bader in just a second. But can I just dive in a little bit more on that, you know, being authentic? What about those who might be listening, who are saying, I’m afraid to show that I don’t know what’s going on. I’m afraid to be weak in front of my team. I’m afraid to show that I have real emotions because, you know, they might look at me and say, well, you don’t have your act together. What words of encouragement can you give?

Mordechai Wiseman: The highest form of leadership, in my opinion, is creating a safe environment where people can make mistakes and grow if you are perfect. A No one actually believes that, but b everyone’s going to try to be perfect. You will not be able to learn and every mistake is catastrophic and therefore it all becomes a power struggle over your image. And without naming names or pointing out political figures, those leaders who spend their time working about and worrying about how they’re perceived versus those that step up and say, you know what, we made a mistake, but right now we need to take care of business and fight. There’s a clear I mean, within my culture where we have developed a clear understanding of what effective leadership is, we will not follow those people who are just concerned about their image. It’s clear that they have clay feet. We will not follow someone into death and fire if we don’t feel that they understand really what they’re doing, that they’re actually worried about us versus them. And so my only encouragement to a leader who’s afraid of showing weakness is to look to Jesus. You know, I’m assuming that everyone listening is a faith driven entrepreneur. Jesus showed pain. Jesus showed that he is struggling in the garden, in Gethsemane. He says, My soul is bitter unto death. He allowed himself to experience the pain and express it, and that gave him the reserves and the strength as a human. As he said, my heart, not my wills. But your be done. That wasn’t some sort of, you know, faith on Prozac. That was a surrender of saying, I have faced death in my soul. Now I’m ready to face it with my body. And that’s the highest form of leadership. It may not be helpful, but that’s the model that I have.

Henry Kaestner: It is very helpful.

Rusty Rueff: It’s good. Really good. Butter. Anything to add to that thing of, you know, how do we lead in these times of crisis?

Bader Mansour: Yes. I mean, Mordechai put it in a very good way. I just would like to say that, you know, in companies, what do you have? Crisis? We act as if like families, you know, the families, different people react in different ways. We hug everybody. It’s okay to work for half a day or a day or somebody wants to take a day off or somebody is not producing or somebody is home because his children are not at school or they are crying at nights, it’s fine. You know, it’s part of life. You know, we are patient, we love everybody and we pray for better days.

Henry Kaestner: I’m going to hand it back to Henry, but I’m going to ask the question again from another perspective. You know, Israel’s known as the startup nation, right? You guys, you know, the country actually stepped forward and many, many startups come out of the culture of innovation, out of Israel in this time of crisis. What do you tell those customers and business partners that you have outside of Israel in other parts of the world to manage their perspective of how your business is doing? And you know that there’s there’s stability and can we count on you in this moment of crisis, because entrepreneurs not only have to deal on the inside, but they also have to think about the outside and what’s the outside world looking at. So what are you telling your partners and customers from around the other parts of the globe?

Mordechai Wiseman: Well, I would say that 75 years of Israeli industry has proven that we are both resilient and productive, even during the times of crisis, that when the rockets are flying, we still export, we still produce. I think one of the ways in which Israelis deal with crisis is as much as we can maintain normalcy and not get bunker down, obviously, as Bader indicated and as we’re experiencing, there is a okay, gather yourself. There is a momentary pause where we’re not just doing business as usual, but there’s definitely strong narrative and pattern in Israeli society that even in crisis, we try as much as possible to maintain normalcy and try to move forward and take the next step. It’s not about solving everything. It’s about just keep moving forward and that history, that sort of. Proof that is in the pudding is what a lot of our international partners have come to rely on. And so, frankly, at least in my history, people are first asking, hey, how’s it going? How can we help? There’s actually a lot of care, even from, if you will, hard nosed business people, you know, before they say, hey, when is my product ready? It’s like, hey, is there something we can do? What’s going on? There is a season of favor. And Israelis have learned to, in that moment, gather strength and keep on moving forward. And yeah, I think our track record shows that as a nation, we’ve recovered and grown after every crisis. And I think that’s what the clients and customers of Israeli companies have come to expect.

Bader Mansour: Is our customers are also they all send emails with the troubleshooting problems or sales inquiries with first asking about us. And we usually tell them that we are fine and we don’t talk too much about the problem. We want to talk about the issues that are for them important, which are solving their problems, you know, on the other side. So we try to do business as usual as much as possible because we don’t want our customers to suffer or to think that we are not a viable company that will disappear sometime or something like this. And we have proved, you know, lots of things happened and we continue to do what we are doing on the other side. You know, we have spoken to a lot of our friends and business partners in the business world who are on the Jewish side trying to just send them a note and say, how are you doing as well? Because, you know, it all started with this I would call massacre, you know, on Saturday, you know, like ten days ago, mostly most people who were killed were Jews. And I know lots of my friends have friends that lost their lives or, you know, they are somehow involved. So, you know, in business, lots of people become your friends, even though you just do business with them. But they are friends also. In times of crisis, you ask about them, you just give them an encouragement. And I think this is the least we can do just to like people are asking about us. We are asking about the people that are suffering the most, which are the people of the south of Israel and also our friends in Gaza. But we don’t do business with but we have church relations with the Baptist church in Gaza. And we also ask about them, what’s going on, how can we help and how can we pray for you? So it’s the whole society, you know, people asking about each other, making sure everybody is doing fine in this world. And at the same time, we don’t want our customers to be worried that we are, you know, not strong. You know, we’re not going to be here in the future and we will be here, as we have always proven. And lots of companies, you know, have proven that they can be resilient. You know, they can be strong with all difficulties. You know, we will continue doing what we are doing.

Henry Kaestner: Bader we like to finish every one of our episodes by asking our guests what they’re hearing from God in his word. Maybe it’s today. Maybe it’s or of course, last week. But believing that God continues to speak to us through his people, through prayer and absolutely his word. What are you hearing from him?

Bader Mansour: Yes, lots of devotions. We have lots of prayer meetings. Our church services turned into places of comfort. Everybody’s talking about this. People are turning to God. I wrote down two verses that spoke to me, and not only this week, but in general, but more strongly this week, Act justly Love, mercy walk humbly with God. This is one and another one, though the fig tree may not blossom nor fruit be on the vines, though the labor of the olives may fail and the fields yield no food, though the flock may be cut off from the fold and there would be no herd in the stalls. Yet. I will rejoice in the Lord. I will joy in the God of my salvation. This has encouraged me as day in our Sunday morning service. So the Lord is good. He is with us in the midst of this difficulty. But we need to be acting justly, not only with our people, but with all people and have mercy, Love it, love mercy, and ask God for mercy, but also have mercy on the others and be humble. I think we need to walk humbly these days, just trusting God more and not trusting our own abilities or our own strength, but just asking the Lord to work through us because we are weak.

Henry Kaestner: That’s beaufiful,Mordechai.

Mordechai Wiseman: Well, I deeply resonate with everything that Bader has just shared. Those two verses have definitely been hallmarks of what God has been speaking to me recently. As I said earlier, I’m on the heels of two years of feeling like God is squeezing me. And no matter how hard I try to get the outcomes that I’m seeking, Lord seems to have other kinds of outcomes that don’t fall in my category of success. And actually, a week and a half, I think ten days before everything kind of went crazy on this side, I felt like the Lord asked me if I will give him permission to squeeze me again. And, you know, the question that keeps asking me is, do you trust me? Are you willing to ignore the normal human signals of my favor and just trust me? And that’s a hard one because you just, you know, am I doing the wrong thing? Am I missing your purposes? And this season, I feel like God is squeezing all of us. And it’s not out of a desire to hurt us, but to produce in us something that is unique. And it is a choice for us as children of God on whether we cooperate with his discipline or not. The discipline is not so much about punishing us. It’s not about punishing. It’s about helping us to grow, to become who he’s called us to be and see things as he sees them and respond to things the way he is calling us to respond to them. And anyway, so that’s kind of what God has been speaking to me and a whole bunch of lamentation songs have been extra meaningful to me in this season. And actually that last verse from I think it’s Habakkuk that Bader mentioned very powerful.

Henry Kaestner: Let me pray for you all on behalf of the listening community. Heavenly Father, we lift up these two brothers, these two men. We ask that you would continue to bless them, Dear Lord. We ask that you would allow them to know you, to be protected by you, to be able to be faithful through this ordeal, just as you protect their families, that your will would come about on Earth and Israel Palestine as it is in heaven. Dear Lord, I turn this prayer back on us and ask that these really beautiful, important lessons that you are teaching, Mordechai and Bader, would be the lessons that you’re teaching us. Though the battles may not seem as apparent as maybe they are to Bader and Mordechai this morning, where we are in Kansas City or Seattle or London or Cape Town. But they are there. Dear Lord, I ask that you would allow us all to be able to lead in such a way that we would be real with people, to be able to be vulnerable. And yet with a sense that we’re on a mission. We’re on a mission to advance your kingdom under your power, not ours, but under your power. And that gives us a sense of hope, gives us a sense of gratitude that you’ve created us for such a time as this, with as much brokenness that exists all over the world. Dear Lord, you’ve called your faith driven entrepreneurs, your business owners, to be in the midst of this battle today. Allow us to understand what the times are like […..] allow us to be able to walk in with the full armor of God. In a way that we know that we have a joyful hope set out in front of us in a way that is this countercultural sign of hope and purpose that the rest of the world is looking for. That doesn’t point to us as strong leaders necessarily, but points to you as the healer, as the savior of the world. Find us faithful in Jesus name. Amen.

Bader Mansour: I put this in front of me, a friend of mine, an American, gave me this maybe 35 years ago. It’s known, but I’ll say it. Maybe it can be a good ending to this discussion. If our greatest need had been information, God would have sent an educator. If our greatest need had been technology, God would have sent us a scientist. If our greatest need had been money, God would have sent an economist. If our greatest need have been pleasure. God would have sent us an entertainer. But our greatest need has been forgiveness so God sent us a Savior. We are all sinner, we deserve. You know, the punishment of God. And he sent us a savior.

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Our ministry receives tons of questions around angel investing. What is it? How does it work? How can I get started?

In this episode, experienced investor and advisor, Mark Klopp, joins our host John Coleman to answer these questions and more as he provides us with a basic overview of Angel Investing. 

For more, check out this page: https://www.faithdriveninvestor.org/angel-networks

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman. And I am very privileged to have with us today Mark Klopp to talk about the topic of Angel investing. Mark is an independent consultant, board member, advisor and investor. He’s focused on corporate venturing best practices. He’s an instructor for Global Corporate Venturing Institute and a principal advisor for Larta and Tech Future. He’s also an angel investor himself and serves as a board member and advisor for several startups and Christian ministries. And I know my partners have known Mark for some time. He’s such an incredible influence on this ecosystem, and we’re incredibly grateful to have him on today. So Mark, welcome to the FDI podcast.

Mark Klopp: Thanks, John. Great to be here and appreciate all that You and Luke and Henry and others are part of the faith driven investor movement and community that’s being built. I’ve gotten a lot out of it myself and happy to share what I’ve learned as well.

John Coleman: Well, we were joking before the recording started here for the audience that our audience knows, I sometimes get into rather eclectic investment topics that maybe don’t have the listenership of angel investing. But angel investing is a very popular topic that I think people will be engaged in, and we’re super excited to learn from you, Mark. You know, maybe just to start this term, angel investing is a little bit broad, right? People mean different things with that, I think. What is Angel investing mean to you? It’s a big topic. How do you define it and how do you think about the parameters of angel investing?

Mark Klopp: Yeah, that’s I think everybody probably has their own definition and mine is not an official one. But I think at a high level, John, that angel investors are really usually individuals that invest their own capital into startups. And usually that’s during the early stages of development. And for that they receive an ownership stake or equity. Sometimes they invest alone and sometimes in a formal or an informal group in order to pool resources and share due diligence. And now these businesses are early. They might not even have customers yet or generating revenue, but they could only have a business plan or a beta product test or a minimum viable product. So some of the capital is used for research and development to help the company formulate its product service, offering even to build a business strategy or identify a target market, depending on how early you invest. And for me, from a faith driven investing standpoint, that’s a subcategory of angel investing. And that means that I’m seeking out investing and mentoring an faith driven entrepreneurs and their teams, and that involves adding value beyond the cash investment in terms of coaching, strategic insights, as well as providing leads and introductions to investors, customers, partners. And the sweet spot for me is a company that has a strategic focus and values and a specific mission aligned with Christ. Hopefully being able to make some kind of kingdom impact.

John Coleman: When obviously angel investing. One of the unique things about it is that it is super early. Typically we know that super early investments are high risk. And so, you know, it is for a particular type of person and is different than the approach most people take, usually investing through professional fund managers or in a diversified portfolio of more mature investments. What drew you to Angel Investing is a discipline, and maybe it ties in to that, being able to counsel people in spiritual impact and those sorts of things. But what drew you to it and why has this become such an important part of your life and your investment portfolio?

Mark Klopp: Yeah, I think it goes back to my initial experience with investing was as a corporate venture capitalist, that was with Eastman Ventures, which is the corporate venture capital arm of Eastman Chemical Company. And through that I got to understand investing in the venture ecosystem. But that was secular and I always had a drive to try to find something that’s more impactful than just financial returns. So that was always been an underlying goal or objective. But I was constrained in what was strategic to Eastman at that time. And since I left there and learn some of the fundamentals and had a network build up in the investing world, I started consulting for corporations on VC best practices, which is kind of been my day job. And then investing also as an angel investor and serving on the boards and advisory boards for private companies, but from a spiritual standpoint. I read the book half time, which many of you may have also read and been influenced by as kind of, you know, what are you going to do to make an impact in your second phase of your career or life? And went through the master’s program at […]. Those have been big influences on my faith journey, especially as it relates to integrating faith and work. And I realize that the relationships, the knowledge, the learnings that I gained in the for profit world could be leveraged to make an impact in Christian ministry and start up arenas. So I started out with before the FDI community had been built by you guys, I was focused more on medical devices, which was my way of trying to make an impact or be involved with impactful investing, because I could understand as an engineer medical devices more easily and I could see where I was helping improve or save lives and many times. But then when FDI came along and kind of opened my eyes to the opportunity to make a kingdom impact beyond the secular play. So my interests as far as industries and application has broadened to more of a generalist with a kingdom impact being the central theme. It’s kind of been a lot of fun to learn about new technologies and industries, kind of keep me on a learning curve. And although many of the principles of investing apply across different technologies and business models, I still try to glean some wisdom from those experts that might be more experienced in the domain or space that may be new to me.

John Coleman: Well, if you don’t mind, I’d love to follow one quick tangent because you brought it up as your day job. And this is not exactly angel investing, it’s corporate venturing. And in my last role, I helped a bit around the edges. It was unique in that we were an investment firm, but as a corporate we were also thinking about new technologies, new innovative companies within asset management, etc. And so we we thought about this as well. And it’s a tough space to navigate, actually. I mean, you know, there are so many different stakeholders within a corporation. You know, you’re triangulating for different purposes with the investments that might be more multifaceted than you would as a pure VC. Maybe just as a quick tangent. Tell us a little bit more. What is corporate venturing and what makes it so both challenging and interesting for the corporations who choose to do it?

Mark Klopp: Yeah, it is. You’re right. It’s a very complicated algorithm to be able to balance the strategic desires of the corporation and the tastes and innovation outside with the startups. It kind of goes to the open innovation theme where corporations have started to realize and it’s becoming more mission critical to reach outside for open innovation and bring in technologies. Then while trying to find things that are relevant to the company to create options or to hedge or to build business intelligence for the company. And balancing that is a very difficult thing. And that’s why there is a need to kind of learn from the past about best practices and how that’s done. So a corporation might have a heavy emphasis on financial returns with a light on strategic. Another corporation may have almost all strategic and very little financial return objectives other than returning their capital. So it really depends on the corporate needs. But in general, they’re trying to do both because building a sustainable corporate venturing effort requires you to make a strategic impact to the company that is creating an M&A option, a licensing of new technology, a partnership or go to market collaboration, a new vendor to enable something or just in competitive intelligence and business knowledge. And those objectives are part of the investing. So you have the filter of what is strategic to the corporation. And you have the filter of a traditional venture capitalist. So many times corporations will co-invest with lead VCs, financial VCs, and just try to fit those deals that make sense strategically and then set up that collaboration almost in a business development role with a core corporate.

John Coleman: Yeah, love everything that you said, and we always thought about kind of you had to almost measure the return of the portfolio in a broader way because we were often investing for some sort of commercial acceleration. And so we might partner. We might invest, for example, with a natural language processing company in order to be their exclusive customer for a period of time in our space, right, in our industry. Yeah. So there were even if the financial return were modest in some respects, if it were able to accelerate a part of your business upon which you were relying, you know, you could think about multiple sources of return. And I think that’s what you’re describing is how do you do that while also, you know, everybody believes that in theory, although people do tend to look at your financial returns pretty aggressively when you’re doing that front line. And so, you know, you can say it’s a balance that everybody kind of wants both.

Mark Klopp: Yeah. When you’re like a 10 billion plus market cap corporation and you dedicate, let’s say, $50 million to a venture capital effort over multiple years, and if you get A5X return, that doesn’t make a huge impact to your now market cap. So you have to have a strategic leverage to that. And how do you measure that? It’s important. And that’s one of the best practices. Also, you’re not going to be around very long as a corporate VC if you lose money, right? So that’s right. The way to position is you’re a profit center inside a corporation that’s also doing innovation. And you can ultimately recycle and create kind of an evergreen fund yourself inside the corporation. And you’re returning more than the average return on invested capital for alternative uses of that allocation of resources.

John Coleman: Well, I could do a whole podcast on this, Mark. We might want to come back at some point, but maybe to return a bit to the angel investing side. You know, I’ve had such long experience here and you talked about deals in the abstract to give people a sense for the space, for the types of companies, for the role that you can play. Would you mind talking us through a couple of your more interesting deals that you’ve done and just how did those come about? How did you find them? What made you invest in them? Just talk us through those deals and give us a sense for what an angel deal looks like in the role that you can play.

Mark Klopp: Yeah, I just at a high level, I typically assist the CEOs on company strategy, financing, business development, licensing, corporate partnering and investor relations. Those are my kind of strengths where I can bring something unique to the table. And on top of that, I try to be kind of a coach or a mentor or encourager and sometimes a cheerleader or even a therapist as needed, since it’s kind of a very lonely and isolating to be a CEO of a startup because they’re looking for someone that can be vulnerable with and they can vent to other than their investors, employees or customers. So maybe a few examples of some deals that are been in the FDI space that I’ve done. One is called FRDM, headed up by Justin Dillon. That was a deal that was led by Tom Blaisdell and I co-invested with him. Justin worked for years in the nonprofit sector to build awareness of forced labor and human trafficking. And he recently was part of a FDI feature demo day type of webinar. So some of you may have heard his story and FRDM story, but they’re really trying to identify that forced labor and human trafficking as well as environmental issues in the supply chain. And he really learned that through his not for profit work, being an advocate in that area, so that right now they’re getting some great traction helping and some of the world’s best brands build transparent and responsible supply chains aligned with their company’s values. So that’s a really good example of one that has a kingdom mission, but also is solving a real problem in B2B. On the more consumer side. This is one where I’ve kind of ventured out beyond my normal focus is a company called Flaire F-L-A-I-R-E, and it’s led by Julia Carter. And this was fueled by her faith and desire for social justice, the work she did with IJM in Uganda. And with flaire, she wanted to build community and social interactions with the Generation Z. And she’s established a great culture. The company that’s one of the things I look for is, is there a cultural goal within the company to have kind of Christ’s values, even if it’s not such a clear kingdom impact, but influencing through culture. She’s building what she calls a friend powered AI that maps where your friends have been and what they recommend while keeping track of your own travel history. Adaptic Health is led by Luke Stewart. This was a deal was actually referred to me by Phil Jung at Sovereigns and something that you guys are looking at for a later stage. And that’s where I like to get some flow from venture capitalists who say, I like this, but it’s a little early. You might be interested in it. And Luke is actually a pastor and a board member at Vive Church, and he’s formed this company called Adaptic Health, which offers a software as a service or SAS platform that helps accelerate clinical development for drug and biotech development from the early stage of design through optimization. And it’s kind of like a copilot leveraging generative AI to streamline collaboration, dynamic literature, review, what if analysis tools and other kind of analytics to improve the efficiency and bring to life drugs that save lives as well as improve lives. Debbie Chen is the founder and CEO of Hydrostasis that provides real time hydration, monitoring and guidance. So from a wellness standpoint or health, dehydration is a universal problem, and that’s three out of four adults, in the US are chronically dehydrated, especially older. One of the lead causes for emergency. I know my mom’s suffered this many times having to go to emergency to get hydrated through IV and she had a monitor. It might alert that problem earlier.

John Coleman: I mean, what you’re describing is a really broad array of companies at a similar stage. Yeah. And you know, what I love here is, as you said, for a lot of venture firms, including ours, even if you’re early stage, there’s a stage that’s too early even for us, right, where Angel often play a critical role. You also you mentioned all these folks by name. And I know a big part of angel investing is that counseling role that you can play the coaching role. Would you mind talking to us a little bit more in depth about what that looks like, like when you come alongside one of these entrepreneurs? What are they going through typically that you can be helpful on? And what is that counseling, relationship or coaching relationship look like between the two of you?

Mark Klopp: Yeah, it varies depending on kind of the need. Many times it’s positioning for the next round of financing as well as rounding out the current round of financing, because I’m coming in many times right after friends and family. I may be one of the first angels. And generally at that stage. So it’s about making sure the structure of whatever their vehicle they’re using, whether it’s a stage node or a convertible or a priced round, is the right one to go after the target audience suggesting who the target investors might be, referring investors that might align with their values, giving them ideas of investment firms and corporates that they might want to think about approaching later and kind of the financing strategy in general. Also, many times there’s a need for a proof of concept or some kind of test evaluation and how to work with the corporation and make that palatable and appeal to the corporation. There’s a lot of insight that I can give. I’ve got a lot of experience with licensing and intellectual property strategy. So we talk about that many times and then just building out a board of advisors, if there’s not one in place or let’s say finalizing the board of advisors and rounding that out. And then just the encouragement, a lot of it’s encouragement and the subtleties of building a business that I try to bring in. Like I said, it’s sometimes it’s just someone to talk with on topics that aren’t comfortable for them to talk about with their investors or employees or customers. Is that specific enough?

John Coleman: Yeah. No, no, no. I think that’s a great overview and it is an opportunity because you’re coming at a unique point in time where, as you said, you’re kind of the first port of call after friends and family and they’re really often looking for counsel, especially if this is their first venture. Now, you have an extensive track record and experience in venture capital through corporate venturing, through more traditional venture. So you came at this with a lot of experience that angel investing is a different beast even than conventional venture investing comes with a lot of risks. It’s a different structure. And I suspect you maybe made some mistakes along the way. You know, as people are thinking about getting into angel investing because we hear about this all the time. I mean, people who have done well for themselves, who picked up great experience, who want to be an encouragement to others, who really want to take some risks. But, you know, it comes with some pitfalls, too. What are some of the mistakes you made along the way that others might learn from?

Mark Klopp: How long do you have?

John Coleman: This is a whole podcast, right?

Mark Klopp: Okay. Well, yeah, what is our time limit, there’s a lot to choose from. And you would think I would have known better in many cases. So let me give you a few examples. Early on in my angel investing experience, and this shouldn’t have been a mistake due to lack of planning, it was me failing to plan or at least accept that I should reserve adequate funds for follow on rounds. And that’s assuming conservatively on the time to return, because as an angel, you’re going to be in for the long haul. The interesting thing is that some of you may be aware of the J curve, which basically means you get the bad news early. And the good news comes later as far as financial returns. So the really good companies are going to take a while to generate a financial return through an M&A or an IPO or some other kind of exit. And this should have been obvious to me because we did that all the time in eastman ventures. And I knew how venture capital worked, but I didn’t plan well. And the other mistake I made in the early days was when I came from a secular. Angel investing standpoint. I many times got enamored with the technology or the application or the business opportunity and didn’t do enough due diligence around the character or the ability of the CEO to raise money or be a talent magnet or even execute on the business. I just got so excited about the product or the market, although, you know, market is important, but ultimately when you’re Angel, you’re kind of betting on the jockey as much as the horse. So as I moved into FDI, one of the challenges I have currently is time management and juggling kind of the day job like I talked about. But let me give you a couple of specific examples where I really messed up. One deal that I did early on before FDI was a medical device that treated emphysema with a less invasive approach. i was the first investor in on a convertible node, played an interim. I actually played an operational role for a period of time, VP biz dad role, and I received additional founders shares for that because I came in really early. So first money in and kind of played a role. So I kind of leveraged up my angel investing with some founder shares and the company did quite well. They were lined up for a Series C and then this is right in the middle of the financial curve, right at the start of the financial crisis. Oh, wow. A Series C came about. They signed the deal and literally everybody was signed up and in the syndicate. And the day of the wiring of money, they pulled out. Wow. Yeah. So the existing inside investors stepped up, but they did our very own arrests pay to play with a reverse split and all these other investor friendly terms. And my founder shares basically got wiped out. And then I had to come up with some money to pay to play and be in line for the liquidation preference. So that was a painful lesson. On reserving follow on zero. If you don’t do it, at least you have it if you need it. And then another mistake I made was on an exit. I invest in a company and advised In Touch Health, which is kind of a telehealth company that was acquired by Teladoc, which is kind of the leader in telehealth now and a public company. It was an all stock deal after the acquisition. During that time, when you’re locked up and you can’t sell. They had a run up in the Teladoc stock price. And once the window opened up that I could sell the Teladoc stock and liquidate some. I took out some like 15% of the shares and gifted some of it to the donor advised fund. And I left the rest right thinking it would go up further or they stay pretty stable because they’re a leader and then use that Teladoc stock as a kind of a holding stock for my source of funds going forward and then sell it when I had the investment opportunity. Unfortunately, with many Covid pandemic run ups, this one went down like 90% and it’s remained at that lower level. So I really beat myself up for being greedy and not contributing more of the stock to my DAF or selling more of it to hold in cash and reinvest in FDI companies or using some type of option to protect the downside. And so that was a very painful lesson and still hurts and one that I hope not to repeat any time with our investments going forward when there’s a stock consideration, take some gains, take more than you think you need, and use that to recycle into other companies.

John Coleman: Well, it’s just a good lesson on venture and public equities being dramatically different. Right. Which I think gets underestimated. You know, we’ve always talked about in the context of a fund manager, for example, people will hire you to manage the asset class. They’ve hired you to manage, not what that might turn into. You know, for a venture firm. Obviously, you want to be intelligent about the way that you exit a position even in public markets position and thoughtful about that. But ultimately they hire us for our venture fund to do venture capital not told public stocks and you know rather than capital to them so that they can diversify. And I think the same holds true when you’re an individual where unless you just have a very strong thesis and conviction around that resulting security, as you said, keeping your powder dry for the activity that you’re engaged in and a more diversified portfolio or these days you even get returns on cash market’s fascinating. We haven’t had that in 15 years.

Mark Klopp: […] Percent on a money market. Who would have thought?

John Coleman: Who knew? It’s like I’m a kid again. Yeah. You know, as you get into that, you touched on this earlier. But one of the unique things about your approach is how you play a spiritual role in the companies that you invest with and you are targeting faith driven leaders. It sounds like companies with redemptive impact. Where do you see opportunities for redemptive impact as an angel investor just for those who are thinking about getting in and, you know, whether that’s alongside teams that are faith driven, whether that’s the types of products and services or markets. You sort of you mentioned like I loved the example of I think it was called Freedom earlier, which obviously has an impact on human trafficking and supply chains, which is redemptive product, redemptive founder. But just talk to us about how you think about redemptive impact in your angel investing.

Mark Klopp: Yeah, that’s a tough one. And you can get pretty deep from a theology standpoint. And I have a lot of learning to do in this regard. For me, it’s a constant battle to avoid the temptation of a focus on financial return, because I’m kind of wired that way as an investor. So, you know, from a definitional standpoint, you know, I believe redemption to a Christian means that Jesus Christ, through his sacrificial death, paid a ransom for us as believers from the slavery of sin. And that’s to set us free from the bondage of sin. So how do you find that in your investing? I do believe that there is a redemptive potential in angel investing when you can find some kind of spiritual, social, economic impact and a results and also some financial returns because you want to be prudent and find a way to return that capital back into the system and recycle it to others that are doing the same on the for profit side or in your tithing or gifting on the not for profit side. So you might have a an investment goal or a theme to support ventures that renew or reshape or restore individuals, communities and culture Now so you can as an angel investor, I think you can not only provide funding to support a business that has a kingdom objective and a culture that models Jesus, but you have that opportunity to kind of get into it from a higher touch standpoint as a spiritual mentor and encourager kind of a Barnabas, as well as provide strategic advice and connections and basically think about how can you help? I always think before I do a deal is can I help this company some way beyond the cash? And what is that way? And have that discussion with the entrepreneur ahead of time. And sometimes that results in an informal mentoring. Sometimes they ask me to be an advisor in addition to being an investor, and I’m formalize that agreement as an advisor and an investor. And then when it’s formalized and we literally outline what I will do to help them in a document.

John Coleman: That’s fantastic, Mark. And I love the structure that you’re bringing to that. You know, I think often we see people without as clear a playbook, especially as they’re getting started. And so the idea that you’ve got these learnings that you can structure that provide a framework which you can interact even on the redemptive side, I think is is incredibly helpful. Maybe to pivot a bit to portfolio construction, we kind of talked about your experience for Teladoc. And you had mentioned, you know, you’ve got redemptive being financial return as a criteria. I presume that not all of your assets are in your angel investing. You’ve got a broader portfolio, although I may be wrong about that, as people are thinking about getting into angel investing. How do you think about that as a part of your portfolio and what percentage of your broader investment portfolio that should be and just how you allocate from your own financial picture knowing that this is a relatively risky asset class?

Mark Klopp: Yeah. And I can tell you what we do, and this is with my wife and I, Meghan, discussing and agreeing because you have to have your partner on board or it’s going to be ugly and you want support and encouragement yourself when you mess up. And forgiveness when you mess up as well as cheerleading when you do well as an angel. So our first priority when we think about investing is actually giving in the tithing standpoint. And we use a donor advised fund as a tool to tithe and then make grants from there to utilize the balance of each year and not have a huge overhang. So we have kind of a given autopilot thing going on with DAF and then we use opportunistically donate when we have unexpected gains. So we’re very involved with supporting on a continuing basis several Christian ministries. And our theme is basic needs, rescue and education. So some of the ones that we’ve supported are opportunity International, which is microfinance edify as Christian schools place in developing countries. IJM International Justice Mission, which is rescuing trafficking, slavery, Fuller Seminary down in Southern California. Jessup University, which is the only real Christian university in Northern California. Teen esteem, which helps kids and parents with making biblical based choices. Shepherd’s Gate, which is Women’s and Children’s Rescue City Team Miracle Messages and Mobilize Love. So those are the ministries that we try to support first with giving. And then on the Angel side, we’ve allocated 4 to 5% of our net worth to direct angel investing. And we kind of think of that as the riskiest and most illiquid part of our investment portfolio. And kind of also think of it like an extension or increase in the tithe that might have the bonus of a recycle and a return component. So when you make a grant, then that goes away and doesn’t come back. But if you make an investment that can come back and if we return at least the capital, then we’ve leveraged that up. That’s the way we kind of think about it. And the principal and the gains can be reinvested. But that doesn’t mean we don’t support not for profits because they’re all part of the kingdom and they have their own business structures and you’re getting eternal rewards. There’s not financial rewards for the grants. And we’re trying to move to something along the lines of what Greg and Tom Lernihan have done a great job articulating and a very evolved investment philosophy where they’ve broken it down into four quadrants with high and low spiritual and social impact and financial returns and kind of bucketing and compartmentalizing those investment objectives. So we’ve got when you talk about our overall asset allocation, we’ve got a rainy day fund, which is really cash that deals with some of my insecurity. And we’ve got about two years in money markets, Treasury bills, two years of runway in case anything ever came about that was unanticipated. And that also gives us a psychological confidence or boldness in pursuing riskier investments if we’ve got that safe investment to fall back on in case something comes about. And then most of the portfolio is a mix of brokerage and IRA accounts invested in diversified ETFs with about an 85 to 15% equity bond ratio. And then we’ve done some private limited partnerships in real estate, VC and private equity, and we’re an investor or a limited partner. And as you know, in the Sovereign’s Capital Access Fund, which is a fund of funds, and we’re excited about that because it’s not only focused on faith driven entrepreneurs and faith driven investors as funds, but, you know, we expect to get a great financial return, but it’s also an opportunity to learn and network and possibly consider direct deal flow coming from that portfolio. So these limited partnerships are also illiquid in the short term, but the goal is capital appreciation in the medium and long term. So that’s kind of the overall structure of our allocation, maybe more detail than we wanted to hear.

John Coleman: No it’s awesome because I think, you know, it’s easy to look at this from the outside as you’re thinking about getting started and really think that others have kind of their whole portfolio in this. And, you know, for some people that might be right. It is a risky asset class. Right. And so being thoughtful about your giving, about the needs of your family, about the way in which you allocate, like you said, can give you some security to chase down some of the more fun stuff that you can do as an angel. I will say your bond portfolio is typically not quite as exciting as your as your angel investing work, but I guess the money markets certainly are. But that’s the goal, is to have them not be very exciting, but to be able to pay for, you know, a bathroom renovation if there’s a roof leak and that kind of thing. Yeah. Mark, those are great comments. In summary, you’ve been doing this for a while. What would you say to those who are looking to get started in angel investing?

Mark Klopp: Well, probably the first thing is pray about it and talk with your spouse. If you have a spouse or a significant other and make sure that you guys are both on board and that you’re willing to kind of move forward in that regard because you don’t want that to create stress in the family and conflict. So that would be the first step. The second would be kind of jointly decide what percentage of your net worth or you’re comfortable risking and allocating for an illiquid investment that might not return in 5 to 10 years or maybe even longer. And then be prepared to understand those risks that you’re going to require a high tolerance for the risk and you should be prepared and really not shocked to lose your entire investment in any one deal if the startup fails or just winds down in some way. And then be prepared, as I mentioned earlier in follow ons, be prepared to include and set aside enough money for follow on investments in case that’s required or desire and maybe to the tune of 30 to 50% of your initial investment. Diversification is very important as a angel like it is in any venture capital. So make sure you invest in multiple startups can help you spread your risk and increase your chances of success and also making an impact. And then when you’re getting started picking an initial focus, if there’s a particular industry that you’re interested in or an expert with connections that you have where you can add value and maybe syndicate or introduce to customers, you might even think about a horizontal focus versus a vertical focus in maybe the kind of impact that you’re targeting, a theme in that regard, and then understand where you can add value and be ready, be willing and able to offer help and assistance in areas that you particularly skilled or experienced in which align with the needs of the company, not just pushing those areas, but having the venture leadership team kind of pull you into that with what they require. So you could have a set of capabilities you can bring and say, which one of these can I help you with? And then once you’re evaluating deals, make sure you do your due diligence and research. And before investing in a startup, you should really get to know the founders and the industry. And if you’re looking as a faith driven investor, convince yourself that the investment in the team aligns with your values and Christian values and objectives. And then as far as generating deal flow, you know, network with other investors and the FDI marketplace where you can find potential investment opportunities and syndication with other investors. You can do that through sharing due diligence and learn from those other experienced investors and FDI community. And there’s a sort of a bulletin board for the FDI community called the Marketplace. And that’s a great way to get exposure as a Christian investor. And then you can look at companies that are coming from Christian based accelerators like Praxis or Ocean and participate in those demo days and get access to what’s going on, because those have been kind of preveted. Prescreened for faith driven investors, faith driven entrepreneurs, and also potential financial return. Those will be some of the areas that I would start with as an angel.

John Coleman: Mark. You know, one way we love to end these podcasts and this has been remarkably informative is to ask people about something they’ve been reading in Scripture that they might like to share with others, something that they’re learning through Scripture or through their own study that they might like to share with others. Is there something that stands out to you right now that you feel like you’re learning that might make sense for others?

Mark Klopp: Well, you know, I’m just hearing the constant whisper from God to devote more of my time and talent and treasure to the kingdom and transitioning from, you know, I’ve got to regarding treasures. My families and friends know that my personal biggest struggle is guarding against the worship of financial security as an idol. And many verses in the Bible deal with that. And the Bible addresses money more than any other topic. And there’s a lot of great FDI content around mana and management and being a steward. So I’m constantly learning and struggling with that. So angel investing is kind of one way I’m trying to battle that worship of financial security by willing to part with some of this security in the form of investing in startups and then recycling those capital gains to reinvest. Another is supporting the church and various ministries. And my wife and I have been involved with the journey of generosity in the past, which made a big impact on our intentional giving plan, giving and tithing. And then I’m trying to back off of chasing consulting fees with corporations, which is tempting on those engagements that pay well. And some of that. Activity kind of allows me to take the focus off of making money while freeing up more time and attention. Apply my talents to kind of give advice, encouragement and make connections to faith driven entrepreneurs, our church and and ministries that we support.

John Coleman: Well, that’s that’s a really thoughtful reflection. I had the opportunity to speak at a breakfast just last week on this topic of what I termed good money. Right. Which is, you know, the Bible warns that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And, you know, we all know that money can be destructive. We also know that money can be a tool for good. And there are some verses about that. You mentioned there are more verses in the Bible about money than almost anything else. I think it’s the research I saw said 2350 references to money, many of which concern its dangers, some of which concern its proper stewardship and the opportunity to create. And I know one thing that you agree with, and it’s kind of become a motto for us sovereigns that all investing is impact investing. It’s just a question of what kind of impact you’re going to have an idea that money is just one more thing in your life. There is a tool that God has given you to steward that you can submit to his purposes and that can ultimately make a positive impact in the world, but only if you’ve kind of let go of it and tried to put those resources at his disposal. And I think that message is a great reminder. You know, we don’t want anyone to take undue risks or do not provide for their family, but sometimes it can become an idol to hang on to things too securely rather than dedicating them to investments in nonprofits or start up companies or other ventures that might make sense for the kingdom. And so I think that’s a wonderful reminder in the way that you live your life.

Mark Klopp: Thank you.

John Coleman: This has been a remarkable conversation. I love how invested you are in the States. How much of a pioneer you’ve been in faith driven investing and your passion for those enterprises and those individuals and just your openness with us today given us a real download on what it could look like to be an angel investor. I know the FDI community is grateful and I hope we get to talk to you again soon. Thanks so much.

Mark Klopp: Thank you. John.

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Can finances lead to a more loving world?

Former NBA star Jeremy Lin and his business partner, Robert Kim believe so. The two of them, along with Patricia Sun, lead JLIN LLC, an organization dedicated to redefining love through entrepreneurship and investing. 

In this special episode of Faith Driven Investor, Jeremy and Robert join Henry Kaestner and Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa host, Wen Li Lim, for a compelling conversation about their passion to use capital for good and why they chose to use investing in addition to philanthropy.

You can also hear more about Jeremy’s entrepreneurial efforts on the most recent episode Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. 

Don’t forget to follow both shows on your favorite podcast streaming platform.

Episode Transcript

Rusty Rueff: Welcome back, everyone, to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. When Jeremy Lin rose to Linsanity fame back in February of 2012, his name became associated with the fastest growing athlete brand in the world. But the buzzing fanfare of his success came with a cost. Jeremy experienced the immense pressure of having to measure up to Linsanity heroics. In this episode, Jeremy shares with the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Asia team how he has navigated these challenges and why he has since focused his energy on faith driven investing. We’ll also hear from Robert Kim, the managing director of JLIN LLC. Let’s dive in. Hey, everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed. And this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome to a special edition of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is what I’ve been looking forward to for a long time. For lots of reasons. We’ve got Jeremy Lin in the house. We have Robert Kim, great friend of mine, a great encouragement to the Faith Driven Investor movement for a long time. And I have Wen with me, Wen and I have never done a Faith Driven Investor podcast together. But for those of you within the Faith Driven Investor community, Wen is awesome. Wen is in Singapore. Wen is a regional coordinator for Faith Driven Entrepreneur, an investor in Asia out of Singapore and my co-host on Faith Driven Entrepreneur Asia Wen. Good morning. Good evening.

Wen Li Lim: We do this all the time. Good evening. Good morning. We are on the other side of the world from each other.

Henry Kaestner: And most of the time is on different days. And we also have Robert Kim before I introduce Jeremy. Robert and I have known each other since almost the week I moved to California seven and a half years ago. And he struck me as a person who he is, is somebody who completely gets this movement, a wealth advisor, somebody who has really thought through the theology and studied this about what is God doing as we look to start investment assets? And, you know, C.S. Lewis talks about friendship being when you meet somebody and you say, gosh, I thought I was the only person who fill in the blanks. Well, Robert is that type of person who really gets in, leans into driven investing, and he’s got a special friendship and relationship with Jeremy and introduced us to Jeremy three or four years ago. But Robert, before we meet Jeremy. Good morning.

Robert Kim: Morning. How you doing? Or good evening for.

Henry Kaestner: That’s right. It’s in Korea, too?

Henry Kaestner: Yes, and you’re in Korea. So you just moved back to Korea, right?

Robert Kim: Yeah, three months ago.

Henry Kaestner: So for those of you can see this on video which is not most of you. You can see that Robert has wasted no time in decorating his apartment. He’s just getting right into the mission field is making it happen. We need to, Wen we need to send him something like some sort of like a movie poster or something. Right

Wen Li Lim: Ok, to anyone who’s in a zoom with Henry. He’ll look at every single thing in your background and he will comment on it, just like Robert’s background that has nothing. So, listen, Henry’s actually poking fun at Robert’s blank.

Robert Kim: Next time you come over to bring something, I’ll put it on my wall.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. And we need to bring something for Jeremy, too, because Jeremy is on Zoom right now, and Jeremy’s maybe feeling a little self-conscious as well. Jeremy, good morning.

Jeremy Lin: Good morning. Good evening. I am definitely extremely self-conscious at this point, but I feel a little bit better because I’m you know, I’m in a hotel and this is just the hotel room. I guess I can just put this Faith Driven Entrepreneur book right behind me and have it kind of be the beautiful you wallpaper.

Henry Kaestner: There’s never been a better wallpaper. Major, major props, so Jeremy welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Prior to this episode, of course, we had a really, really great conversation with you and Patricia, Faith Driven Entrepreneurship and your identity as a basketball player, your identity as a human and your identity as a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, really one of the favorite episodes that I’ve ever done. You just got on the concept of identity, motive, joy, gratitude, Sabbath, rest, and that was awesome. I want to encourage our listeners to go back and listen to that. That was really special as we talked about Jeremy’s career and journey through Faith driven entrepreneurship and this conversation. As you may have gathered, we’re going to be talking about investing and what does it look like to steward the investment capital that God has given us all. And then you in particular, as you’ve done this in partnership with Robert, as he’s sought to provide sound counsel to you as you think about again stewarding that investment capital, on whether participates in the work that God is doing. So thank you for joining.

Jeremy Lin: I’m excited. Thanks for having me and this is really cool to be on. I’m excited for this one as well.

Henry Kaestner: Cool. Okay. So as we start out, give us some backstory. So you’re launched in the spotlight in 2011 in a big, big way, an incredible documentary called Linsanity. And maybe I’ll just a personal anecdote on this. I guess three or four years ago when we met, the kids were just off of school. That morning, we watched the documentary Linsanity. And my boys were probably, I don’t know, ten, 12, 14 at the time. And then I got a chance to say, hey, guess who I’m having lunch with, like the guy who is just in this documentary. And then we met and had this great lunch. And then you’re just incredibly gracious with your time and and spent time that evening with a group of faith driven entrepreneurs sharing about identity. But it was all about this identity as you are thrust into the limelight as a really young person in 2011. And what follows from that is these big, big time million dollar contracts. God gave you a lot of success on that with different teams in the years that followed that. But when did you start viewing investing the money that you’re earning? When did you start viewing investing as a tool for impact?

Jeremy Lin: Yeah, I mean, this was definitely a journey as well. And I think, you know, for a little bit of backstory, Robert Kim, before coming on, you know, he’s here a part of JLIN LLC now and we’re able to start this capital initiative. But before that he was with Caprock and he was my financial advisor for Robert. How long?

Robert Kim: Eight years. Yeah.

Jeremy Lin: And I just remember, you know, he saw the way that I was kind of going about my finances. And he would always kind of mention, like, you know, like investing is a really powerful way to, like, build God’s kingdom where you can really think about it. And for me, I was always so focused on philanthropy and I always knew, like from a young age, like, oh, philanthropic work foundation, where this is like where my heart is, is what I’m going to do. And Robert kept giving me different anecdotes, challenging my paradigm, saying, like, look, the nonprofit sector is great and it can help. There’s also a ceiling and there’s the nonprofit and the for profit sectors don’t merge together. You know, there are certain limitations to how much you can help somebody. And he gave this great anecdote about somebody who might be, you know, an NGO or a nonprofit, would be working with the child, getting him to a great place. They make it to college and want to attend and there’s no loans available or the for profit space has nothing available for him to be able to get to that next level of higher education to continue down this path, among other anecdotes. And that’s when I realized, wow, I really think that God has uniquely positioned our company and our brand to be able to touch and potentially connect and bridge both sides. And so that’s when we started really looking more deeply into investing as a huge vehicle to be able to build God’s kingdom. And honestly, like I didn’t even know that existed. You know, for me it was like it was so far out of the realm of what I could understand. And Robert continually over time, was able to, you know, develop that conviction within my heart. And now we get the chance to work together.

Henry Kaestner: […] so Robert. So let’s back up a little bit, because you came to this realization a long time ago. You and I remember talking about it, and now, as soon as I moved out here seven, half years ago. How did you come to that understanding that investments can participate in God’s kingdom with such conviction that you’re able to take this really high profile client and then boldly go in and suggest the same to him.

Robert Kim: Yeah. Really good question. I think for me, it wasn’t an understanding that it started really. It was more of a conviction that in my mind. So backing up a little bit in my twenties. I was working in New York City management consulting firm, working with some of the large tech companies in New York City. And at the same time, I was doing these short term global missions, right? I would go to Mongolia, I would go to different parts of Central America, Europe. And I just really kind of became friends with these people because I would go back, you know, every year. And these are like amazing people, super talented, super resilient, yet like they just didn’t have the access to the resources that I was enjoying. And I remember thinking I was living on Wall Street. I’m like, why isn’t the capital markets looking at this community? And I think that’s when I started praying, God, I want to invest your resources into communities like that. And I didn’t have enough means to do that on my own. But I think God was faithful. He just listened to that and he gave me an opportunity to learn how to invest, he gives opportunity to meet amazing people like Jeremy. And so I think it was more of like just a desire really and understanding sort of came after. And I think like I met Jeremy and as you can tell, you know, Jeremy, as authentic as it gets and I sense a deep desire to really meaningfully impact the communities through his platform. And I felt like God really knitted us together. I had a sense of that and that kind of sense developed over several years. And I started talking to him about, Hey, what about this area? You can do a lot here. It’s new, but you can do a lot here. And and I think naturally our friendships sort of got formed and it was more comfortable to share also. And as the ecosystem also matured, there were more investible projects they could actually place capital into as well.

Wen Li Lim: Right. And part of the mission of JLIN LLC is to impact culture and redefine love. And at Faith Driven Investor, we talk a lot about the idea that all investing is actually impact investing. And we believe that our capital has the power to shape cultures, communities, cities and even nations and Christians especially can use the capital to work for good. What do you hope JLIN has on the rest of the world through the impact investing that you do?

Jeremy Lin: I mean, I think wow, I didn’t think I was going to do this, but I’m like almost plugging the other the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast because Patricia had, you know, she was just on me like, you know, JLIN LLC needs this big long term goal. And she made me sit through like hours of meetings and asked me and picked the card everything I said and was like, I need more specifics. I need more like I need more. And I had to think for a year, literally like 12 months. And that’s when we kind of came up with this concept of redefining love. And we’re like, Man, if we could redefine love for the next generation, I think that’s what I would. That’s what I would want to go for. And it was just so divine because me and Patricia had talked about for so long. Like, we would love to work with Robert, but we don’t want to poach. And so we never mentioned to Robert like I mean, for four years. For four years we never mentioned anything. And then all of a sudden, Robert came to us and was like, Hey, what do you think about this and this? And me and Patrica we’re like, Oh, my goodness, like, what a divine.

Jeremy Lin: Like. I mean, the whole how we even got here was just really amazing. And so I think, you know, that’s when we started on this concept of can we redefine love and impact investing or investing in general is just one of those ways that we think we can do that. Can we start to view our investments, our wealth, our network, everything that within that realm? Can we view that as an opportunity to, you know, redefine love, give the next generation more opportunities to be there for ourselves and to be able to do it in ways that are really like dignifying and humanizing for each individual person, not just the people that are being affected by the company or the product or whatever that is. But also the the founders, the employees, the fund managers, like everybody across the board. Can we approach it from a way where we’re humanizing and really loving deeply on those people, as well as obviously bringing this new level of radical love through how we use our wealth or how we even view our wealth. I think, you know, Robert can go more into this because this is something that he is working a lot on right now and thinking a lot more on, but that is kind of the birth of it all.

Henry Kaestner: That’s amazing. So you and Patricia work on this loftier, bigger purpose about why are we doing all of this and what does success look like? And over the course of 12 months of going back and forth and her challenging you, you come up with something pretty ethereal. I mean, it’s pretty big, like redefining love. And I’d love to hear what that means in terms of like how you invest differently. So, Robert. You’re constructing a portfolio for a friend and a client that’s saying, I want my finances to be involved in the redefinition of love. What does that mean? What do you do with that?

Robert Kim: Yeah, that exact reaction that you have right now was and so is my reaction till today. You know, we talk a lot about this topic, but when I first heard Jeremy and Patricia kind of talk about redefining love and can we talk about what does that mean in the world of investing? Honestly, as somebody who has been deep into impact investing for a while, I was very shocked. I was like, I don’t know. I don’t even know what that means. And so I moved on from Caprock and joined JLIN LLC at the beginning of 2022. And so over the last nine months or so, I’ve been really thinking intentionally about what does that mean? Right? And I think we’re not quite there yet in terms of clearly defining what that means. But we know the following. We think that one is really around this notion that impact happens in the context of a relationship. I think the impact that we want to see really happens at dinner meals, in a coffee chats, right. And when we think about the founders that just face immense level of pressure, when we think about first time high impact potential fund manager, they’re starting out. They’re putting their life on the line. Right. And they go through incredible journey of highs and lows. What does it mean to really redefine love in that context as we invest in them? I think it’s spending time with them, I think is really creating an atmosphere for founders to be themselves without the sort of pressure to put up sort of this persona that, well, for the next fundraising, we’ve got to look like this. Right? And so we’ve been thinking really deeply about post investments. How do we create an environment or an atmosphere where founders can come freely and just really experience the love that we experienced personally? And same thing for the first time, general partners or fund managers as well. And so we’re working on that right now. And so that’s kind of first piece. The second piece I won’t really go into too much is really investing to improve access for the marginalized communities throughout Asia in the US. And so when I think about GDP per capita in Southeast Asia and a lot of it coming out of service sectors, the innovation happening on the technology side I think can really multiply that in the coming decade. And I think the impact that can happen in the context of that growth is going to be pretty special. So we’re pretty excited about that. So I would say like the relationship with the people we invest, how do we thoughtfully forge relationships and then improving access through the technology and business models that we invest in?

Henry Kaestner: So you guys have worked together for a while first, as you know, a client relationship with Caprock and then of course, now with JLIN. But you have made some investments together, of course, in the past. Can you speak to some that you’ve done that you think are good exemplars of the type of stewardship that you want to do that you’ve done?

Robert Kim: Yeah, definitely. The most recent one is a company called Ascent Funding. They’re based in the US and they’re in a education financing industry. So typically in the US and then also in Southeast Asia, if you want to get a student loan, really it depends on your parents credit score, how wealthy your parents are. And I think what that does is it immediately excludes people; one without parents or people with parents without too much means or wealth, because as soon as you don’t have a credit score, you know, you just started to build credit. And so this company called ascent funding created a, in our mind, relatively new way to underwrite a loan based on the student’s academic ability. And so they spent a lot of time understanding, you know, their academic ability and therefore that student’s ability to find a job post-graduation. And they really take a look at that sort of factor. And if they have a high sort of academic potential, regardless of your background, you know, regardless of whether you come from a, you know, high income or low income, you can get a loan. And that is really special because we care a lot about access, as we talked about. And that company is tremendously improving access to education through new financing structure. So I would say that’s the most recent one that we really love and that sort of exemplifies the type of companies we are looking to invest into.

Wen Li Lim: I’m going to ask Jeremy, earlier you were just talking about like philanthropy and then really then moving along and doing impact investing. Is there a particular project or even issue that is really close to your heart that you started out to kind of doing philanthropic work and just through, you know, talking to Robert and learning more that you’ve kind of moved into looking at impact investing in that specific area.

Jeremy Lin: That’s the unique part about this is I am extremely excited about my foundation and the stuff that we’re doing, the Jeremy Lin foundation we center around really empowering, overlooked API. And then at the same time, you know, when we think about investments and different things like that, we’re looking at different companies that will also provide, you know, and the thing that Robert will talk a lot about is access and mental health. I think those are two of the primary drivers that we’re looking at. And when we think about the pandemic, when we think about, you know, what I’m learning from everything on the foundation side and all the work that we’re doing, so much of it centers around mental health and what the kids have been going through. And, you know, even when I’m doing my UNICEF stuff, like it’s all about mental health. And when we talk to Congress, congressman and congresswoman and public officials, they talk about bullying and mental health. And these are things that we are trying to also provide. Can we provide more access to mental health resources? Can we invest in companies? Can we even approach the mental health of founders in a way that is able to help them get there? And I think that’s something that’s really unique, is, you know, when I think about a great coach, she helps me, all my great coaches in my life. That helped me become better basketball players, but they haven’t redefined love. Right? Like the coaches that have really redefined love for me are the ones who became mentors and lifelong friends because they cared more than just the results and what I was able to bring, right? Like it wasn’t just the profit or the numbers or it was being willing to walk through life with me and being able to meet me in my highs, in my lows, and to be able to care about me outside of my performance on the court. And, you know, these are the things that we want to bring to the people that we invest in because we won’t be the ones coming up with the product. But if we can meet them where they’re at and then even just to challenge them a little bit or to give them almost like a different perspective or to give ideas, maybe the product changes. And maybe because of that small tweak, it affects an entire territory of children, whether it’s mental health or access to education. But I know I’m a little bit all over the place right now, but it’s kind of just a snapshot into what we’re trying to do. And we talk about like what is Redefining Love look like. It definitely requires more radical love, being willing to grind it out and go through the rougher parts of the process that maybe other people wouldn’t be willing to go through and then caring more beyond just what the final result and the statistic shows.

Henry Kaestner: So either of you can answer this for listeners on this. Can you illustrate where you are and the spectrum between and maybe you have investments all across the spectrum, but between philanthropy through to social impact, which might have a patient or concessionary return all the way to market return. Do you look at the portfolio holistically that way, guided by this principle of love, guided by issues like community, which I know is big in mental health, which you just mentioned, but can you talk about and maybe even represent investments that might represent philanthropy, impact investing, which connotes that there’s going to be some sort of a financial return as well as a social return, and then also where you might make an investment that might be consistent with your ethos and what your call to that might be. More on the market return side.

Robert Kim: I can take a crack at it first and then Jeremy can obviously add on to that, I think. So across that spectrum, my good friend calls it One Pocket Investing. Right. So most investors have for profit pocket and then invest in pocket. So from a sort of a Jeremy Lin family office perspective, right. There’s a Jeremy Lin foundation that does the grantmaking right around underserved API communities with a theme of cross-racial solidarity. So we definitely have a focus there. Jeremy also does quite a bit of philanthropic activity or has some philanthropic activities over in Asia as well. And so we have that. We also have market rate sort of traditional investments and market rate impact investments they are right in the middle of sort of what you laid out Henry of like the lower return impact investments such as like program related investments, things like that. We have not done a ton of that there in sort of that middle category. So most of our impact investments have actually achieved market rate, whether that was a venture strategy or a real estate strategy or a private credit strategies. And so that’s kind of been sort of how we’ve been positioning the overall.

Henry Kaestner: Can you do those? Can you do a real estate strategy? Can you do a private credit strategy in a way that is different than the way the world might invest in it? That’s driven by your faith and just drawn to that a little bit.

Robert Kim: Yeah. So I think example always helps. So in real estate we invest in a bunch of properties and it was affordable housing. So because it goes back to access, you know, access to housing near the workplaces have a tremendous impact on the quality of life for the family and the kids. So we care a lot about affordable housing. So we invest in properties that are affordable to low to moderate income households, but driven out of our faith. And we’re not you know, I’m sure there’s more to be done. We are always learning honestly. But one of the things we sough out to do is can we serve the tenants a little bit more meaningfully? Right. I totally get that. They can live there at a lower rent free. What else they need? Right. Can we provide certain services at the properties? Around medical care, around budgeting? So what the property owner and the property management team did is they invited local churches and local nonprofits to deliver those services. So it was like, hey, free blood exam from 2 to 4 p.m.. Or you can learn how to manage financials, learn how to do budgeting, come and learn at this sort of hallway. Right? And for the kids before the school week, they would have like donation right coming from churches and other places. And you know that these churches. Right. And local churches like the big why of the reason they’re doing this is to share the gospel. And so they don’t explicitly say that to the property management teams, but that’s the motive. And we try to scan, you know, the local churches and local nonprofits and I think like driven out of our continue to seek out sort of like redefining what love means. I think there’s no limit there. But one expression of it is always asking what else they need? What else can we do? And I think that’s an example. And in terms of the financial return achieved what it was supposed to from when we were initially reviewing the opportunity.

Henry Kaestner: So this is market rate, so guided by your principles of loving on communities. This is actually an investment vehicle where you’re actually able to get a market rate return.

Robert Kim: Correct. Correct. And when I say market rate, market rate for these types of properties and I won’t go into like the difference between sort of a market rate properties versus affordable housing, but within the category of the properties definitely achieved what we expected.

Wen Li Lim: Jeremy, would you like to add to that?

Robert Kim: No, I mean, I think that’s a great example. I mean, there was, you know, even earlier well, I’m not going to add too much on to it, but there’s another company that we invested in a while back that also turned just plots of land into affordable housing, but then also targeted or tried to be more intentional about who we were renting out to whether it was, you know, widows or single parents or different, you know. And so these are all different ways that, you know, I think maybe you could just view things a little bit differently beyond just what has been the status quo. So those are just small examples of what we try to, you know, target, I guess.

Wen Li Lim: Well, I’m super excited that Robert’s out here in Asia, and I mean even before Robert moved over was to started chatting about the impact investment seen here and the kind of projects and the people that are on the ground working. So really glad to I mean, Jeremy, you’re in Asia as well, so just really glad to have you guys doing the work over here and really looking forward to see what it looks like to see. I know Robert’s coming to Singapore and we’re meaning a bunch of people together as well, just exchanging stories and learning from each other. So really exciting days ahead. But usually part of the episode we do this like Rapid Fire Round. So I ask a question something light, you got 30 seconds to answer, so I’m going to go to Robert first. Let’s start with you, what’s the favorite place you ever vacationed at?

Robert Kim: I think there’s a small island south of Korea called Jeju.

Wen Li Lim: Oh, I’ve been there.

Robert Kim: Oh, okay. So, yeah, it’s like the Hawaii of Korea. And every summer growing up in Korea, during my childhood, we went there. And so I think that stays with me pretty deep. And I would say that’s the spot for me.

Wen Li Lim: Well, I went there because it’s Winter Sonata, that Korean drama that came up like 15, 20 years ago.

Robert Kim: Right? Right. Right.

Wen Li Lim: Now, this is I know this is Henry’s favorite topic, dessert. So you’re both of Northern Californian. Where is the best place that you go to for dessert? And then I know Henry Henry’s going to chime in as well. Jeremy

Jeremy Lin: Well, I. If I want a nice desert, I usually go to Sundance Steakhouse in Palo Alto. Then I get the mud pie, which is a coffee ice cream pie with an Oreo crust. And I get no whipped cream, extra fudge. And they got the candied pecans on there. Oh, it’s a coffee Oreo chocolate blend of goodness.

Wen Li Lim: It’s like every ingredient you could think of Henry gone.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I tell you, we’re overindexed for listeners from Silicon Valley, so I fully expect that that advertising plug is going to result in Jeremy never having to pay for another mud pie ever again. I’m trying to figure out if I can kind of get in on that deal. For me, it’s got to be Dolce Spazio unless gosh it’s just incredible, incredible gelato. But the way that Jeremy described it, at first I thought I was going to say no whipped cream because he’s like watching his, you know, you know, he’s a professional athlete. But then he said, well, then extra hot fudge. And I’m like, Well, I guess that’s probably not the motive, but that sounds really good.

Wen Li Lim: Robert, what’s your favorite dessert up there?

Robert Kim: I don’t think I can be very top. Henry or Jeremy is honestly like I’m pretty simple when it comes to dessert. I just like anything chocolate. It’s a little bit more anything like dark chocolate, anything above 70%. I love as any dessert place that has that in there.

Wen Li Lim: I kind of feel anything above 80% taste like cardboard. So I’m with you there. Okay, my last question. So we’ve got an athlete here with us and so let’s go into that direction. If you could be excellent at one spot that you currently are not good at, what would it be and why? Neither one.

Jeremy Lin: I would say, MMA, because then I would feel really like I can protect people around me and myself in the majority of situations. It’s also like it’s pretty wild. I mean, you never know when you’re going to need some type of survival skills.

Wen Li Lim: Very practical. Robert

Robert Kim: I don’t know what the name is, but you know, like people like jump off a cliff with a little like sort of wings that they have and they kind of like videotape, like the mountains and the cliffs and whatever that is. I want to be really good at that.

Wen Li Lim: Is that handgliding.

Robert Kim: They’ll be like, really cool.

Henry Kaestner: No, no, no.

Robert Kim: It’s like, it’s not like it’s a suit they wear.

Wen Li Lim: Yeah, it’s like a squirrel jumping out.

Henry Kaestner: Squirrelsuit, that’s what it is.

Robert Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That one.

Henry Kaestner: Robert, I would not have picked that for you. That’s amazing. I just got a glimpse into your personality that I didn’t know. That’s unbelievable.

Wen Li Lim: Well, over to you, Henry.

Henry Kaestner: To me, this first lightning round I’ve ever been involved, I don’t think anybody cares what I think. But I’ll throw in I throw in basketball from basketball because I had three boys, all of whom can beat me, on one and one handily. And I’d like to kind of throw down on them. I mean, I just I have had the fantasy that God would give me just for 5 seconds, the ability to dunk, and I’d go in with a 360 dunk. And then I just looked at the boys like, Yeah, what do you got now? And I’d only need to do it once, and it would only need to be in front of my three boys. We need to be in front of anybody else. And it’s okay if the film wasn’t on, but it would be awesome if it was. And then then that be done. Then that would be my […] moment God could take me up to heaven.

Wen Li Lim: It’s my job. Okay. Well, thanks, everyone. I love this part, but. Yeah, over to you, Henry, to close this out.

Henry Kaestner: Well, this has been awesome. And Jeremy has been really gracious with his time because we spent time on Faith Driven Entrepreneur, which, again, I hope that you all get a chance to listen to that because he talks so much, so eloquently about his identity as a Christ follower. But we finish out every one of our episodes across faith driven entrepreneur and all the different reasons we’ve got Africa now, Asia, and Global Podcast, and then of course FDI with endeavoring to understand what God is speaking to our guest about through His Word. And it doesn’t need to be this morning necessarily. It can be within the last week or last month, but a time in which you feel that God is just saying, here’s a message I have for you through the Bible. So, Jeremy, we’ll start with you.

Jeremy Lin: I shared one on the other podcast, but a different one is Exodus 14:14, where the Lord will fight for you and you have only to be still. And I think about when Moses and the Israelites were surrounded on three sides by water and Pharaoh’s army on the other side. And there’s a cloud separating them. And they’re. Going to basically like, okay, we’re trapped that we’re going to die. And this concept that God tells Moses, like, I will fight for you only to be still. And I never knew this. I never knew this until recently. But the Red Sea, when it parted, it did not happen right away. Like in some of the movies, it was An East Wind that took all night. And I think that’s, you know, very relevant to investing to entrepreneurship. But that sometimes when God moves, he doesn’t move right away. It takes him some time. He’ll use you know, it was an east wind that it took all night. And I’m imagining what those like seven, 8 hours would feel like for, you know, being trapped and thinking that this army is going to just come and slaughter me. Right. And knowing that God will sometimes take longer than you expect. But if we’re faithful, if we stayed true and connected to him, he will move and he will fight. And we have only to be still sometimes. And I think that was something that’s really encouraging to me.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a very, very good word. I’ve never read the passage that way. That’s really encouraging.

Henry Kaestner: Robert.

Robert Kim: For me, it’s Romans 8:38, very famous passage, neither death nor life, neither angels and demons. And it goes on, you know, neither hide nor death or anything else and all creation will be able to separate us from the love of Christ. I think that’s a really, really powerful message for me. Like as God reminds me, like, man I love you and nothing else matters. And he reminds me of that on multiple fronts, multiple parts of my life every day and truly blessed. And I almost feel like tying it to kind of what we’re doing here at JLIN. And it’s like, I love you so abundantly. Go share that. Go share that with people you co-invest with, go share that with people you invest in. You know, go share just the love in ways that you can. And it’s a privilege to do this with Patricia to do this with Jeremy. It’s a real privilege. And, you know, another sign of God’s love. It’s like, man, like God put amazing people around me that are just truly, truly special. Right. And so, you know, when Henry and Luke you know, all the other people in the Bay Area also just like amazing people working toward a collective mission, it’s it’s a great reminder that God blessed me abundantly. So this message means it means a lot.

Henry Kaestner: It does, Robert. He does. And you, Jeremy and you Wen, Patricia team awesome being with you, Jeremy. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your leadership, your humility, your candor, and your partnership in the gospel.

Jeremy Lin: I appreciate thank you guys so much for having me. We’ll talk soon.

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Education is a fundamental part of thriving societies, and technology has brought about more learning opportunities for all people.

That’s why Christian investors like Evan Baehr and James Tieng see the space as a way to promote human flourishing across various communities.

The two also discuss the unique opportunities available in education, their thoughts on less-traditional forms of learning, and who they listened to most on Spotify in 2022. It’s a light-hearted and insightful episode that you won’t want to miss..

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman and I am here with my colleague Luke Roush. Luke, how are you doing today?

Luke Roush: I’m doing great. I’ve got a couple of great guests and fired up.

John Coleman: It is a couple of great guests today. We can say that very authentically. Always great guests on the Faith Driven Investor podcast. But particularly today, we welcome two very close friends of ours and extraordinary investors and influencers in the venture capital and growth equity space. Evan Baehr and James Tieng. Evan is the managing partner of Learn an education oriented venture capital firm. Evan has had a long and storied history, all that he and James talk about, but they actually were undergraduates at Princeton together and then graduate students at HBS together. And Evan has worked in a variety of capacities. James has been a venture investor for most of his professional career, at least recently, and has been a real leader in the education investing space across a number of different firms. I know he has a deep heart for education and then co-founded the firm Lumos with his partner Victor, just a couple of years ago. And now they’re a leader in growth equity, education, investing. And so we’re very excited to talk to both of them about investing in education, about venture capital and growth equity, and just about why they do what they do. James and Evan, welcome.

James Tieng: Thanks, John.

Evan Baehr: Good to be here, John.

John Coleman: Awesome. Well, I’m going to kick us off, guys, and I just want to just set the ball upfront. What does it mean to invest in education and what types of businesses are you looking at? When we talk about investing in education and maybe, James, you could kick us off.

James Tieng: Thanks, John. For us, and I think it is true for learn as well, it’s really about investing in companies across the full age spectrum of learning. So that covers early education into K-12, into traditional higher education and workforce development, which touches on things like upskilling, reskilling and even corporate learning and to invest in education for us and I believe for learn as well. It’s about driving outcomes from an academic standpoint for employment standpoint, broadening access and equity as it relates to everything that really is the ingredient for human flourishing through building the skills across the entire age spectrum could be a B-to-B company, a B to C company, domestic and or global. But that’s the catch all across a sector for us.

Evan Baehr: Agree with everything that James laid out. One misconception we hear a lot is that when you hear education, people think that you’re selling into K-12 schools. Really only about 20% of our companies, which is about 180 in total, actually directly provide services to K-12 schools. So obviously something like upskilling or corporate workforce training happens outside of the classroom. But we’re really into thinking about and recognizing that a lot of education happens not inside the walls of the classroom. And it doesn’t only happen when you’re young, so that means you get up in different places and different ages. A phrase that our firm co-founder Rob Hutter, uses. He says that we’re focused on investing in companies that innovate, in delivering payload to the brain. That’s a really unique definition of education, but will use sort of the space X analogy, right? So their amazing innovation is lowering the cost, cutting payload into outer space so you can ship all kinds of new things to outer space satellites, etc.. So if you imagine whatever payload we’re talking about, traditional, you might think of it as physics or math or the ability to build a welder or social emotional, whatever it is, we’re really interested in the innovative approaches of how you take whatever that core subject area or area of expertise is and how do you actually impart it on the brain. And so that explains why we might be in a medical device company that puts a helmet on your brain and spins tiny magnets that recalibrate your alpha brainwaves. Because if your brainwaves are not coordinated correctly, you’re not able to process information and impart it on your brain. And so when we step back and say it’s basically the case with the Internet that nearly all information in the world, all skills, all facts, anything you could possibly need is on the Internet right now for free, and almost no one does anything with it. So how do you wrestle through that, that it’s out there for free everywhere, but people are not soaking it up, learning it, and sort of changing their lives as a result.

John Coleman: That’s awesome, guys. And maybe just to dig into that really quickly. One step further, Evan, you mentioned a couple of specific applications there. We’d love to hear from both of you. Just examples. So give us a deeper understanding of this space. What are examples of a couple of the innovative companies you’re investing with or that you’ve seen in what they do so that listeners can kind of understand the breadth of that innovation more deeply?

Evan Baehr: So we’re invested and really involved in a company called Sharpen. They have secured the patent on a genetic test for dyslexia. So to a three year old child, you can do a mouth swab combined with family history and have a 90% accuracy of predicting if they will have developed dyslexia. So if they test positive at the age of three, the second half of what the company does is they acquired the most successful and largest off line reading intervention program and built an app to be able to deliver it digitally. So a trial that is screening to be likely dyslexic is essentially taught to read in a different way. And so you can imagine that from sort of a public health perspective, our society wide perspective, if you can screen and understand, I think early major driver of kids finding it difficult to read and to learn generally and then do the intervention, the intervention is far less expensive and far more effective when done at an earlier level. So, you know, when you think about genetic testing, you don’t normally think of, you know, an education company. But for us, it sort of helps stitch some of those concepts together.

James Tieng: One example I would have for you, John, is Transfer VR company that some of your investors have seen through some of the videos we’ve done with you. But it’s company that provides simulations delivered currently through VR headsets and related accessories that allows for a few different things. One is career discovery. So for kids and learners and aspiring workers to really touch and feel and experience, what is it like to work in the automotive plants, an aerospace manufacturing facility, even in a health care setting, etc. and to then to bring to bear real skills building and proficiencies that are demonstrable, that are accessible, such that when somebody gets through a program and realizes they have the interest in that specific field, they also have competencies that allow them to be more hirable once they step foot in that setting. And so an example would be working with an automotive manufacturer in Huntsville, Alabama, connecting the dots between K-12 community college and also workforce development boards to bring that talent to an employer.

Luke Roush: Those are great examples. You know, and I think actually some of our work around diagnosis, being able to diagnose either vision disorders or hearing disorders or dyslexia and then being able to intervene early allows people to become learners where they otherwise might be misdiagnosed as slow or some other form of special needs. I want to go back to just Simon Sinek and start with the why. Why did each of you guys wade into this space? Why is innovation in education important as you kind of vision here? What the next 20 or 30 years looks like? Maybe just speak a little bit about the impact that you believe educational innovation can have.

James Tieng: For me, it’s an accumulation or it’s an evolution that goes back prior to even attending business school, sitting down, you know, 15 plus years ago, thinking about life, think about which sectors gave me excitement and mission around where I can spend my time as an investor. And this was a bit more of a hypothesis, but this was what I articulated going into business school. And I remember having one transformative experience in business school, taking a course at HBC, taught by a woman named Stacy Childress around innovation in the sector. But this is going back many years ago. And so what is innovation, what does innovation look like? Back then it meant a palm pilot to assess literacy competencies. So innovation was very different, but that wasn’t lost on me in terms of the opportunity being just massive, in terms of the pain points that exist and had existed across every part of that learning spectrum that I mentioned and wanting to be a part of something that could really start to move the needle. And I know it’s hard work, but that also ties in eventually to why we’re all here today, which is our faith intersects so much with our work and our professional calling. And over time it just kept and pull me forward and forward up to the point of actually co-founding Lumos with another Faith Driven Investor. And so it’s really this evolution that has spanned nearly two decades now.

Evan Baehr: I am tiny in the relative scheme of giants on this call. Also, James has been doing this for decades. I’m newer directly into the education space. Joining this firm, we’re in capital. It ties in to a lot of the themes that I’ve been really interested in, which are both around venture building, but specifically around building venture backed tech enabled businesses that solve big public problems that tie in to really critical global macro issues. There’s a wonderful chart, I think Marc Andreessen called it the chart of the century, and it looks at essentially inflation across different bundles of goods over the last 20 years. And his great line is essentially the three components of the American dream are essentially up 100 to 200% in terms of inflation and the growth of the prices. The number one is hospital services, which is up 220%. But the two just below that are college tuition and fees and college textbooks. And so if you were to really ask the question, on one hand, there’s this sort of political economic side, which is like, what is the greatest existential threat to the United States as a nation state or Western nations in general to continue to drive their competition? Certainly our ability to educate not just higher ed, but K-12 would certainly be a huge one. So I find it very interesting from a geopolitical component, if we do not figure out how to und bankrupt, how we fund education and how we improve our education. We will absolutely no longer be a leading nation. We need to spend on the education side. The United States is number four in the world behind Luxembourg, Austria and Norway, and we’re ranked number 31. So something is really broken with how we spend money and how we produce results on more personal and sort of spiritual level. Rob as well, these great lines. And he said the following. You said, Why is it that we know more about the minerals under the ground of a tiny town in West Texas than we do about an African-American boy on the south side of Chicago in second grade. And it was this really cool tape to just say, gosh, the human person is this amazing, beautiful creature that has all this potential. But many of them, especially low income ones, the United States, we know so little about. And so that contrast of how we put all this brainpower or anything of stewarding a resource of crude oil into the ground relative to how we think about the children, you know, in our own family or in our own backyards was a really powerful one for me.

James Tieng: I’ll just add on to that. I mean, I mean, I think that’s a great example because it just showcases, you know, we’re all children of God and the often said talent being evenly distributed, but opportunity not. I think that is common amongst all of us, right. And to really just driving us forward to solve these very pressing issues you mentioned Evan.

John Coleman: Yeah. Let’s continue to dig into that because you touched on a couple of really important topics. I think there one is the power of the private sector to really solve public policy problems or social problems. And then secondly is a component of that impact. You know, and that dovetails with what we’re hearing a lot in the news today about ESG investing and values based investing, impact investing. What I hear you all talking about is not what I consider standard ESG principles, but rather aligned with your Christian faith, human flourishing, and really investing in people and the impact that you can have on those individual lives in the way in which they can further impact the world. Talk to me about how you think about impact in the context of your portfolio. And James, I know you have a formal screen on this or way of looking at this, so I’d love maybe to start with you, but how do you think about impact and how does that fit with the way that Christian investors should think about the impact of their capital?

James Tieng: It’s a great question, John. It is something that we thought about from the beginning and still think about regularly in terms of refining. What is the approach and sort of what is the level of accountability and reporting and where is this all going. But fundamentally, it started with three pillars that Victor and the whole team aligned with, which is each and every one of our companies, we want to really align with at least one, if not two. And all three would be kind of magical. But number one, again, I said outcomes. So do we have sufficiency of proof that whatever company we’re backing really does improve the status quo as it relates to academic and or employment outcomes? You can measure that with tests, grades, progression up to competencies, completion, graduation, employment rates, etc.. Number two, are we doing something about access that allows more people to capture those opportunities to get the skills they need to be successful during K-12 and higher ed, but more importantly to the ultimate job as well? And that’s not just about costs bringing down the cost for all the reasons Evan has just mentioned, but also the modality, because we all sit in different parts of the world. And this pandemic taught us very clearly that you don’t have to be somewhere necessarily to be productive and get to where you need to get to. And so allowing people from all different sort of walks of life wherever they are to get access to high quality education, and then somebody really think about equity from a couple of different lenses. But it really just. Is there a gap that systemically just exists today that need to be addressed and broken and reimagined? And are our companies really in service of that as well, whether it’s target populations or how we build out of those organizations to serve more and more people? So those are the three dimensions that we then had to create frameworks around, then create sort of systems internally and externally to allow us to do that. But it really comes down to those three pillars.

Evan Baehr: Yeah, just to pick up on the ESG frame. So we are very much in the conversation. A number of our LPs are coming from an impact perspective, and we have had a dedicated impact partner who only works on these topics from screening to supporting to reporting. So we take it really seriously and talk to LP prospects a lot about this attention that I’ve found in the sort of global conversation on ESG, maybe, I may, illustrated in the following example. So let’s say that a standard approach from a capital allocator to drive an ESG agenda would involve a survey asking about various factors of one of the companies we invest in. And those kinds of questions would be things like, you know, number or percentage of representatives of members of you know how many women, how many racial minorities, how many members of [….]. They would ask about the carbon production of the company itself. Does this startup of 12 people have solar panels on the roof? And I think there’s a little bit of something lost in translation here where if you’re coming at ESG from a sort of Fortune 1000 perspective, where the agent of attack is really changing the operating business, to say to Ford, you’ve got to put up solar panels like that, moves the needle to say to a startup, you’ve got to put up solar panels. It really annoys the founder and they probably go out of business. And so the way I like to think about it is let’s get to some of the underlying fundamental areas of human languishing, the opposite of human flourishing. Let’s expose what those are and let’s invite our best and brightest founders to build venture backed tech enabled companies to run after those problems. And so if your concern is carbon, your attack vector is not, does the company at all have solar panels? It is. Are they building a startup, which is this engine that combines a culture with talent, with risk capital, with a set of advisers around it that has the ability to scale solutions and deliver results like no corporate entity has ever in history. So we have opinions on it, and we get a lot of these survey questions and where we can try to nudge people to say, Hey, let’s start from first principles here. What are areas of human languishing and are we organizing the brightest minds and the best capital like a laser beam on those problems we all agree we want to solve?

Luke Roush: And so, I mean, one of the things you’re getting at is just this risk of scope creep where you start to the end. And and I think it’s layered on early stage companies in a way that may be distracting from their core primary mission. One of the things that I want to touch on, because both of you guys have been hinting around and we talked about primary education, secondary education, higher ed, skilled trades. I want to dig in on that last bucket of like skilled trades just sort of where we are. When you think about trying to correlate outcomes in preparing people for jobs, good paying jobs that also maybe circumvent the student debt trap that a lot of students find themselves in in higher ed. How are you guys thinking about skilled trades as investors in that space, whether it’s skilling or reskilling?

James Tieng: I would say we think a lot about sort of what is the ROI of education. And I think when you just look at the data, it’s clear that ROI is lacking in many of the traditional pathways. And so the opportunity for data and technology and innovation to drive forward to have a better matching system, you know, has been true for many years and sits in front of us right now. Still, the massive opportunity, right? You look at student loan debt as one indicator of the problems of how most people have kind of gone through called this the traditional pathways or you look at the for profit post-secondary world that crashed a bit when it got overextended in terms of what it looked like. But ultimately, what are we all trying to do? We’re trying to find the right pathways for the right people to embark on that career journey that does create that sustainable life ahead. Right? Because we all know that, you know, depending where you sit in the US right now, being a lineman might be a transformative career for you relative to where you are now. You have kind of direct exposure to that and we respect that work deeply. But that is true in so many different professions that, you know, blue collar, white collar, whatever it is. So you got to guide people the right way. And that does start in K-12, right? It starts because you need exposure to these professions that you’re not entering that decision point of, do I go to college or not? You know, not understanding what you’re actually trying to get to, Right. And then once you get to college, you need further guidance to get to the right place so that it is a fulfilling career, but also a sustainable one where you can meet all the ambitions you might have in terms of raising a family and providing for a family and whatnot. And there are so many complexities of what that looks like. And I think that is something that we all have to be aware of as investors and backing these entrepreneurs, because it can’t be a concentrated bet on something that only serves the person that will ultimately be a web developer, for example. That is certainly a need that has been felt over the years. But many of these other professions have been under med health care, included blue collar jobs that touch on electrician work. In fact, all these things that we’ve seen this part of the country. So I think you just need to have that broader lens of what that all means.

Evan Baehr: My friend Wyatt Smith has built a business called up Smith right in this space has taught me a lot about this. And just a glaring stat that he points out is that for every one skilled tradesman that enters the workforce in the United States, four are retiring. And the way he phrases that I think is really amazing. He thinks that the United States, when you think about higher ed in STEM, remains definitely in the top five of producing credentials to preserve the United States as a designer nation. We are able to design things. We can generate intellectual property. We are already falling behind and are at risk of losing our ability to be a maker nation and especially set against a backdrop of repatriation of whether it’s ingredients for pharmaceuticals or semiconductors or other things that we now see greater geopolitical realm. That is a huge challenge. And the stats, as I dug more into it, NCIS did a survey and suggest that 23% of American adults, about one in four, are functionally illiterate. So the state of education among America’s workforce is pretty appalling. So when you think our scores on a PISA, for example, have us at 37, that’s been around for 20, 30 years, meaning 30 years, a 50 year old who graduated ranked number 37 is functioning, literate, is not able to contribute to workforce in a practical way that generates economic outcome, in a way that produces a work and an income that gives them dignity. So there’s a lot to be figured out here.

John Coleman: Yeah. And I love that you tied in the global perspective, too. And James touched on this. I do love the phrase talent is universal, opportunity is not. And a lot of this discussion is, you know, the college market or the four year college market is such an incredibly small portion of the global education framework. Right. And whether in the U.S. or abroad, the opportunity to reach people for the critical needs in their communities around the world with differentiated learning programs that can be lower cost, that are lower time intensity, I think is just a remarkable way to move the needle on giving more people opportunity globally and also meeting the critical infrastructure needs from a public policy perspective. Evan as you mentioned of countries around the world. I might pivot just a moment here. So both of you are in venture and in growth equity right now. Obviously, it’s a relatively tumultuous time in markets. We’ve seen changes in valuation in that space. We’ve seen some concerns about the space, the potential that we’re headed into a recessionary period here in 2023. How do you think about the reset that you’ve seen in venture and growth equity this year? And why do you think this is still an important place to play?

James Tieng: I think even a more holistic approach, by the way. And so, you know, we set out as a private equity firm that would invest at the growth stage. And that one distinction allows us to have the flexibility to do growth recapitalizations, if not buyouts as well. And so I do think that as the world normalizes for all the reasons that you described in terms of the stock market valuations and also just what’s happening on a lagged basis with many of the venture back in growth backed businesses as well. There’s going to be ripeness for doing very interesting deals at valuations that frankly will feel more sane versus the froth of several years ago. And so as an entry point sort of time period, this should be quite good. And you can look at obviously every sort of recessionary period that we’ve seen in decades, and there’s always been good vintages of private equity and other investing that emerge. And so I think that is one thing that’s going to happen or has been happening through this year and certainly into next year that will benefit LPs. It’ll benefit us in terms of be able to create value over time. But you do need a long term mindset in that right there. Think about one, two, three year windows. It’s hard to time the market, but I think all of us here, we have a long term mindset. We have a capital base that allows us to kind of spread across different cycles. And so we are seeing that correction and believe that there will be a net benefit in this kind of coming few years.

Evan Baehr: And look, times of recession, capital scarcity, having to trim and think about capital efficiency, there’s history for really amazing companies emerging out of downturns in the 2008 nine recession at WhatsApp, Instagram, Groupon, Uber, Slack, Square, Venmo like pretty epic market capital by companies that were developed during that time. They’re probably the most extreme example is obviously the massive firings, layoffs, resignations, whatever you want to say at Twitter. And it’s like, wow, they seem to be shipping more product improvements more quickly than they did before with five times the people. So might be a little extreme, but there are ways to do heroic things in times of cuts.

John Coleman: Well, and you know, I used to work with a great venture investor named Evan Dar and Evan pointed out on the ground what happens during periods like this where valuations come down and where there are layoffs at tech companies, etc., is that creates the framework for people to leave and start companies? Because the problem, when values are rising and you’ve got options is you got golden handcuffs at the big tech companies, right? In a period where the stock prices have collapsed and those options are no longer valuable or they’re indeed doing layoffs, a number of really good people then have the freedom to leave and go start their own thing with less risk or leaving less money on the table. And so it does enable this cycle where in periods like the late nineties, early 2000, during the great financial crisis and potentially now you see this burst of innovation of new company founding, a really intelligent people, leaving big corporate jobs to go do something interesting. And I’m interested to see if all these waves of people leaving Meta or Twitter or others or the folks who are leaving voluntarily because their options aren’t worth something are going to spur a similar wave of innovation now.

James Tieng: And I will say, I mean, it may not be as quite epic as the floods and, you know, Noah’s Ark and whatnot, but I mean, there is kind of back to faith for a moment. I mean, God humbling all of our hearts at this moment. Right. Is an important correction that just everybody needs more and more. And it just you know, you look around sort of the past few years and there was just such unbridled behavior, unconstrained behaviors that, you know, when it’s too good, you lose sight of certain things, whether it’s like cash flow management or sustainable business building or whatnot. But I think having that humility, reintroducing the system, at least for those of us that are accepting of it, I think that is a critical time to. Really just reflect and retool and continue in this kind of path forward.

Luke Roush: I want to hear just each of you is really serious about your Christian faith, and I’m sure that is reflected in how you shepherd capital. Love to just understand kind of why that is important to you and how that influences and shapes your role as a capital allocator and ultimately as a counselor to many of the companies that you’re investing.

Evan Baehr: There’s a line from a mentor across Praxis, which many of us are tied into, and they do really great work helping me and others think more deeply about this. And this investor likes to ask the question, Will your business exist in heaven? Now, that’s probably not a question that most investors should ask. It’s not when I ask. There’s all sorts of reasons you may not want to do that, but it’s an interesting thought exercise to think about if a version of heaven is heaven on earth. It is people with work and in marriages and going places and doing stuff and making stuff. What would this company look like in an Edenic state if heaven came back to earth? How would this company exist? I don’t use that as an investment criteria, but I do like that. It draws us to what are the garden look like? What were the conditions of it? How did humanity flourish when it was in the garden? And I want to believe that when you find a company that truly in the long term drives the human flourishing of its employees, its investors and its users, probably the largest base. I believe that in a long arc of capitalism will reward that company in market cap. The short term it may not, but in long term I think it will. So I think even as an investment criteria, does this company drive the flourishing of the users? Are they operating and living in a way that they were intended to live? If there were a handbook, a playbook, a user’s manual for the human person? Does this help them live more as they were made? Tim Keller line of work is definition of work is following, he says quotation definition of work is rearranging the raw material of God’s creation in such a way that it helps the world in general and people in particular thrive and flourish. So our work as investors rearranging the raw material God, we’re taking various forms of capital, financial capital, human capital, spiritual capital, rearranging them in ways and kneedings and encouragement and high fives. And I can’t believe your company died. Hey, I kill your company soul so that they flourish. Gives me excited to bring these conversations into the context of how we allocate capital.

John Coleman: man Evan Baehr dropping some deeply philosophic truth bombs here on the FDI podcast.

Evan Baehr: John on that one. Question would the FDI podcast exist in heaven?

John Coleman: I think the FDI podcast would exist, but it probably wouldn’t be hosted by me. Would that be? I think they could do better. I have a feeling there are some great people up there. So we’re going to close in just a debt asking you guys what you’re learning through scripture. Before we do that, we’re going to do something fun we call Lightning Round, and we’re going to ask you guys simple questions and look for kind of short answers in 60 seconds or less. Some of these may be serious, some of them maybe less serious. I’ll start us on a semi-serious one, which is, as you look around education right now, what is the innovation you’re most excited about over the next 2 to 3 years? James, we’ll start with you.

James Tieng: It’s a really tough question. I am excited by apprenticeships applied more broadly than they have been globally, but certainly in the US, and that’s not a bleeding edge sort of, you know, metaverse type thing. It’s really just the idea that we have so much more to do to my earlier points around bridging education to employment and so practical skills training and even on a paid basis, allowing people to really get their hands on the meat and substance of work will just be transformative. And we can embrace that globally, but certainly just in the US right now. And so I realize that’s not really a tech forward. I mean, there’s a lot of tech ways to bring that to bear, but that’s a simple concept that I think is very disruptive still.

Evan Baehr: We are at the beginning of a massive change of public opinion and public policy in the United States that will radically change to make it so that money follows child. When that happened to the form of charter voucher […] Or other policy instruments, it invites entrepreneurs to create all kinds of solutions that we can’t even imagine today. And what used to be more of a partizan issue is in really amazing ways, because we know when parents have more control and educators have to compete. Results dramatically grow. So that’s sort of the meta issue I’m really excited about. I think invites more founders into the space on the backside of massive […] voucher, charter, etc.. I think we need a whole new generation of entrepreneurs who want to build schools. There’s a challenge of people that come in to build schools. They’re often from a nonprofit background that are often teachers. If you’re a teacher, it doesn’t mean you can’t be an entrepreneur. It’s just very different skill sets. And so we learn, spend a lot of time thinking about on the back end of a massive wave of millions of parents getting to choose where the kids go to school. How are we going to build the supply chain to generate all kinds of new school concepts that are scalable and kept most aggressive year? They built three schools. One of our companies, New Globe, which powers of micro schools across Africa, has a contract provider for the government. So Kip’s biggest year of preschool last year, new globe built 3800 schools for profit venture backed companies have the ability to scale. And that’s really what we need to talk about mass education, especially of low income people, obviously in their states, but certainly 10-20 x that around the world.

John Coleman: An extraordinary answer in greater than 60 seconds. So I’m giving that round to James over to you Luke.

Evan Baehr: Hey, your podcast will not exist in heaven. John will never.

Luke Roush: Be so one example in 30 seconds or less for each of a benefit in a risk of remote or virtual education.

James Tieng: Benefits clearly is just you can be anywhere at any time. Risk is that people element. I mean in K 12, we understand to be like that high quality teacher that transforms lives and I guess just gets played out across all of education. So losing that in-person element is the biggest risk for my perspective.

Evan Baehr: I just air on the risk side, McKinsey report out suggests that the extended COVID school lockdowns and alleged Zoom classroom from home has an estimated about an additional 1.6 million students dropping out from high school because of learning loss.

John Coleman: Unreal.

Evan Baehr: Take that one John.

Luke Roush: Man you made up for the long answer the first time Evan, I’ve got one more.

John Coleman: It is very concise. Go ahead, Luke.

Luke Roush: So about this time of the year, every year Spotify comes out with kind of the rap. It’s sort of like your year rap. Who showed up more in your playlist, Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift, please. James, to you first.

James Tieng: Neither because my top ten were all Lauren Daigle songs. So you could go, Oh.

Luke Roush: Okay.

Evan Baehr: Lauren Daigle. Really? That’s right. Well, all of my top ones were Michael W Smith and just kidding just kidding. Okay. Mine’s definitely. Taylor Swift. My son is a big Taylor Swift fan. I spend about 6 hours during the great Ticketmaster controversy waiting in the ticketmaster line to get the tickets. And we did secure tickets. We’re going in a few months. And I only had to sell my third child to afford them.

John Coleman: And Luke, this is a fundamentally silly question. I mean, in a year when Taylor Swift releases a banger like Midnight 3 a.m. Edition, I think there’s only one appropriate response to that. Question. I know you’ve been doing your Turnstyle with the Bee Gees on repeat for the entire holiday. Well, we are going to wrap up now. That was great Lightning round. Before we leave, we like to ask every guest just to share with listeners something that they’re learning through Scripture right now in their faith that they’d like to share with others. And Evan, maybe we’ll start with you and end with James.

Evan Baehr: I’ll just offer this contrast to a good friend of mine. Joel Bryce has been preaching and thinking a lot about human flourishing and the nature of work and where those concepts emerge in Scripture. And he taught me the following two definitions, which I’ll just leave with you guys. And so there’s two notions of work translated versus agathos. And this version of work is that many people sort of set our hearts to this. It is good work, it is good natured, is well-intentioned, and even can do good in the world, is a different kind of work from the word kalos, and that is work only possible after the gospel message has transformed the human heart. And this kind of good work it is a beautiful work. It’s work that creates beauty on the outside after a transformation has happened to make the inside beautiful as well.

James Tieng: Mm hmm. For me, you know, it’s been a year where I think my heart has been closer to Scripture than many years. I lost a parent this year, and that kind of put a lot of weight to sort through kind of of those questions of aging and end of life. This one isn’t specifically about that. But as I shift through kind of many of the different passages I reflect on this year, one is from the Billy Graham Center on that hike that I think I saw you jogging on John back in February, but it’s from Psalm 145. The Lord is near to all who call on him to all that call on him in truth. And this year has been just complex because of all that going on. And I’ve had to distill it into the simplest way to pray when it’s the hardest to pray. Right? And it’s simple for me because I boil it down to simple statements that I can say both in my heart and out loud. I am listening. I surrender to you, Lord, and I need you. And I boil it down to that because we need to call on God to be present our lives. You know, we can sit back and be passive Christians or we can actually call on him. And that is such a powerful way to approach prayer.

Luke Roush: On that note, we are grateful, Evan and James, for you being able to participate with us on this podcast. You know, our view is that almost any business can be creative or redemptive or restorative, but there are certain types of businesses that have unique potential to really impact the world and humanity and what human flourishing looks like. And certainly businesses in the educational sector fall in that category. So we’re grateful for you and appreciate you taking the time to be with us.

James Tieng: Thank you both.

Evan Baehr: Thanks, guys.

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Faith Driven Investing has been around for much longer than this podcast and ministry.

It is an international movement of leaders deploying capital for Kingdom impact. Our host John Coleman likes to joke that it’s been around for at least 5,000 years.

But even with its rich history, there has been an obvious uptick in activity in recent years.

Today’s Marks of the Markets episode functions as a “state of the movement” with two long-time advocates and practitioners of Faith Driven Investing: Henry Kaestner and Ross Roggensack. 

Check out the full episode to hear how the movement has evolved and where these leaders think it will go next.

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman and this is our monthly marks on the Markets episode. However, we have a unique twist on marks on the markets this month. Typically, we just check in on the state of markets, some of the underlying dynamics in financial markets. But today is a very special episode on the state of faith driven investing here at the beginning of 2023. And we have two very special guests as a result. First off, is a longtime friend of Faith Driven Investor, as well as a leader in the faith driven investing movement, Ross Roggensack, who’s the founder and CEO of Oak City Consulting, which advises institutions, religiously aligned institutions on how to allocate their capital and invest both for performance as well as for faith integration. And then we have on the other side of the podcast, mic today taking a step away from Faith Driven Entrepreneur Henry Kaestner, the founder of Faith Driven Investor, founder of Faith Driven Entrepreneur, founder of Sovereign’s Capital and Bandwidth and a longtime leader in the faith driven investing movement. Ros Henry, it’s so great to have you all on today.

Ross Roggensack: Thank you.

Henry Kaestner: What a great treat. Its co-founder. I love that you’re making me sound so important. Special this morning. It makes me feel good. And yet it is the case that there are some amazing people around that have been instrumental in starting Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor. And when I think about people who have gotten this movement from the beginning, I can’t thank much beyond Ross Roggensack, I get to know Ross maybe a decade ago or so, which feels like a century ago in dog years in terms of the movement. But for me to be doing this podcast with both of you is really special. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Ross Roggensack: Yeah me too hear here.

John Coleman: Well, Henry, I want to tee up right where you just started. You and Ross have been longtime leaders in the faith driven investing movement. Give us a little bit of that history for listeners who are unfamiliar, both of you, I’d love to hear how you got started in faith driven investing and what got you motivated to get involved.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, maybe I’ll go first, Ross and then you pile on, please. So from my perspective, my experience is that I was an entrepreneur and worked on Wall Street, came to North Carolina in 1998, came to faith, most importantly, and then together with David Morgan, started bandwith. I had a company based on the foundational values of faith first and family, then worked in fitness and got six, seven years into it. Dave and I realized that through the grace of God and despite making a lot of mistakes along the way, we were able, through God’s providence to be a witness to His love for us and endeavor to run the business a bit differently and and saw, of course, how business can be used as a means for sharing Christ’s love, making a redemptive product and service, doing things differently. And the question was, well, what might we do outside of Bandwidth to encourage more of that with others we’d met and the idea was maybe we’d go ahead and start a fund. So that was the beginning of Sovereign’s Capital six years in, maybe we realized that we were say no to most of the companies who are coming to us for financing. And since we got into the business because we wanted to be an encouragement to faith driven entrepreneurs, if you say no 99 out of 100 times, not really being an encouragement to them. So we started the ministry called Faith Driven Entrepreneur then, and Faith Driven Entrepreneur is known for a content and community blog, podcast conference, monthly groups. But two years in to that, I got a call from a guy from Uganda and he said, Listen, I actually Rwanda. Sorry, he said, I’d really like for you to invest in my business? I said, Well, we can’t because we don’t invest in Africa, but we’ve got this other ministry. I realized that in talking to him, while he appreciated the different offerings that we had at Faith Driven Entrepreneur, we really weren’t scratching his head. He was still, at the end of day, he’s still looking for investment capital. And we decided then that we would start a ministry called Faith Driven Investor on one hand, Yes, to help some of these entrepreneurs from around the world to find like minded capital. But then more broadly, what might it look like to encourage the development of a larger movement of faith driven investing, especially in private markets, especially in [….] to be clear, there had been a lot of work done for a long time in lots of different sectors of investing, particularly in public markets. But not a lot had been done on the outside. And so we felt led to start Faith Driven Investor as a complement to Faith Driven Entrepreneur. And it was gosh, four and a half, five years ago I think we got together with Ross in Park City, Utah, to talk about what it might look like to create a movement or almost an industry trade group, but really, really a movement, just men and women coming together that were stewarding institutional capital. How might, we’re motivated by our Christian faith, allocate that capital in a way that might honor God. How might we encourage faith driven entrepreneurs? How might we encourage the thoughtful deployment of capital in segments like real estate and all sorts of different asset classes? But it’s been unbelievable over the course of the last five years how much supply there now is across virtually every asset class. Dozens of players in the space on the supply side with excellent track records. It’s unbelievable. And there are hundreds and hundreds of families that are looking to deploy their capital consistent with their faith. Thousands, really, and dozens and dozens of institutions that are getting really, really serious about it, too. So it’s been a beautiful run. But I’m eager to hear about Ross’s background because I’ve seen Ross and I can’t, I can tell you this is a means to further introduce Ross. I can’t think of another individual that has got in this space of faith driven investing more than Ross. Ross How that become the case.

Ross Roggensack: Oh, my goodness. That’s so scary to walk into that area, but I’ll try. I started in the business in 1989 as a stockbroker, very traditional, you know, broker dealer selling Cracker Barrel stock. And Ginnie made collateralized bonds to anybody who would answer the phone and just kind of just dragged along until one day I was just pulled into a Christian foundation who needed help. And really, it was just I think the Lord just dragged me in. It really wasn’t any sort of a grand master plan. I wish I could say it was, but it wasn’t. And that was back when I was at a wirehouse on a team. A great team. Still love those people and still loved working there. But in 1999, I came to know the Lord. He captured me on a rooftop on a mission trip in Mexico. It’s a long story. I won’t tell it. But he gripped me and shook me and it took me a while. But finally, in 09, after the crash, after a lot of things revealed themselves to each other, I just decided it was time for me to go off on my own and to live out my faith in a way where we could serve only Christian institutions. So we really don’t do any financial planning. We don’t help people save for a beach house, We don’t do retirement planning. All we do is work with faith led Christian institutions to try to help them invest capital. And so that’s all that we do. The kind of the start of it was really you know, I’m a hockey fan. I love to watch hockey, and I’m always muttering under my breath when I’m watching my team play, like shoot the puck, shoot it, shoot the puck, because you can’t you know, you can’t make a shot, you don’t take. And so we just shot a lot of pucks, you know, we just tried a lot of stuff and some of it looked right or felt right but wasn’t right. Some of it we couldn’t quite tell what we were doing, but it just took a while until we finally, I think, started finding things, found us, and now I think we have a pretty good handle on what we’re trying to do to help institutions do different things. You know, you’re not going to look any different if you do everything the same. So we try to encourage institutions that are faith led to allow themselves to be faith led, you know, allow it to happen.

John Coleman: When you both talked through your legacy in the area and I like to joke with people, you know, Faith Driven Investor thing is at least 5000 years old if you think about the history of Judaism. But it does seem to have accelerated quite a lot over the last decade since you got in Ross In 2009. Henry Since you founded Sovereign’s Capital in 2012, what has changed and what are you most excited about here at the beginning of 2023? And maybe, Ross, we can start with you.

Ross Roggensack: Well, I mean, maybe part of it is my own understanding of what it is when you think about what is it me preaching to the choir. Now I’m looking at Faith Driven Entrepreneur on the screen. When I think about what’s faith driven, what is faith, you know, and faith is action. Faith is when the woman touches Jesus’s garment. You know, nothing really happened until she did that and nothing really happened until Abraham took Isaac up on the altar and began to sacrifice him. You know, that was action. And so I think for me, what’s changed is that we’re becoming more active and we’re seeing more action, which is faith. Right. And it’s fun to watch people who are stepping out in faith, people that have real investment chops, you know, people that are leaving Goldman and leaving big firms, smart firms that are saying, I want to do this. You know, I think about Victor Hu, people like that that just they could make a killing. Right. If they just stuck right where they were. But they are acting on their faith, their faith driven and they’re moving. And it’s just so fun to find them and to watch them. And I make the correlation that when my girls were growing up, which was a long time ago because I’m old, but we started to try to find Christian music for them to listen to. And trust me, in the year 2000 or so, it was Sandi, Patty and Michael W Smith, and that was it. And so it wasn’t that encouraging to find music for them to listen to. But as time grew, as the movement grew, you know, there’s now there’s lots of high quality options to choose from. And it kind of feels like we’re getting there on the investment side. There’s we’re not conceding all the time or dreaming. We’re finding stuff. It’s great. So I might have gone on too long. Sorry.

John Coleman: No, the only objection I have is in 1990s kid, Ross’s the notable exclusion of bands like Jars of Clay and Audio Adrenaline from the 1987.

Ross Roggensack: That was on purpose John.

John Coleman: Music. But Henry, what about you? You’ve been in for a decade now really thinking about this consciously. What’s changed and how do you feel about the current state of the movement?

Henry Kaestner: Oh, so much has changed. So many things to point to. I think about selection and entrance in the space. I think about professional fund managers getting together to encourage and worship God together. I think about what’s going on overseas. So those are three broad categories. Maybe we don’t [….] all in the same question. So maybe I’ll just hit the selection first. You know, when we started, it really wasn’t a whole lot going on in the private and the alt space. There was quite a bit of work done on the negative screen space, which is let’s not invest in companies that might advocate for adult entertainment, abortifacients. A whole bunch of different things had been around for a while, and yet this concept of Christ followers would be knowing what they’re for rather than just what we’re against wasn’t really built out at all. And especially, again, not in the old space. You fast forward though, five years on and it’s really amazing what’s out there. So I’d put that in three broad categories. One is I’d say that there are fund managers that existed that we just didn’t know about five years ago, and I think quite a bit quite a few of them are on the real estate side, multifamily ten or 15 years ago, Apartment Life, which is a great ministry out of Dallas, started partnering with Secular fund managers and Christian fund managers. But to put apartment chaplains in place in communities where there are a couple hundred spaces, finding that by doing so that they were decreasing the turnover, which means increasing the profits of these multifamily apartment holdings. And so I didn’t even know that that existed. I think back to the way we were investing funds out of our family office. We had a lot of real estate investments, but we didn’t have any. And these fund managers, I just didn’t know they existed. Well, we know that they exist now and there are dozens of them, and it really is amazing. I love this is one of the things I think needs to characterize the movement is that you get better returns when you love on the people that live in your properties. And that was really neat. That was a bit of revelation. And the next one is funds that has started over the course the last five years. So Ross mentioned one of them. Victor Hu left Goldman Sachs. He had started the education technology practice at Goldman, was there for a decade left and with Goldman Sachs as his largest LP started Lumos Capital to invest consistent with his faith with a chaplain on board. So what is consistent with your faith mean, well, it can mean a lot of different things in this movement. A faith driven investing is not meant to be prescriptive or presumptuous. It’s got to be X, Y, and Z. It is, however, about us getting down on our knees and asking God, how would you have us deploy the capital you’ve entrusted with? An outcome for somebody might be to invest in solar farms in the divided desert because you’re called to creation care for somebody else who might be investing in Faith driven entrepreneurs in Africa. There’s no right answer other than the process by which we ask God how we might steward the capital that He’s entrusted us with. So you’ve got people like in this case, though, with Victor, he sees an opportunity to love on these entrepreneurs that are really setting themselves out there. You know, they’ve delivered a hockey stick type of projection in their PowerPoint presentation. There’s a lot of stress in being an entrepreneur as you try to deliver on what you promise. You’re trying to do a good job of leading your family in your community, in your company, and you’re always selling something to somebody, you are selling something to your customers, your employees to come on board or sometimes your employees to stay. You come home from work and your spouse says, Honey, how is it at work today? And and they’re like, Well, it is great. And because your spouse thinks he knows you left a great job, you headed IBM or fill in the blank. Right? And so Victor realized that he had an opportunity to really love on these portfolio CEOs. So to be able to offer chaplaincy up in an anonymous way in an environment where mental illness is five X among entrepreneurs, suicide rates are two X among entrepreneurs is doing a countercultural thing by saying, you know what? There is an opportunity to be able to have a chaplain in place and gosh it is amazing. If you think about [….] Wang, who left Warburg Pincus to get a $575 million fund. Zuckerberg Chan, one of his largest LPs, excellent health care investing. So a whole bunch of funds that have been started with people who have come into this space, having had great track record, so important that this movement is characterized by excellence. And I think of dozens of funds like that. And then maybe my favorite section of funds are the funds that have been recast, reinvented, if you will, in light of the Faith Driven Investor movement. A good example. There’s good water capital, good water with more than $3 billion under management, a great consumer technology venture capitalist [….] Chen, Eric Kim, guys who invest in some of the biggest names ever [….] was the first institutional investor in Facebook way back when. And these guys got together and said, You know what, We started our fund eight years ago. We knew we were serious about our Christian faith but didn’t really know what that meant. And what’s not really clear that our portfolio and what that meant or our employees. And so we’re going to go ahead and have a little bit of a restart. We’re going to go ahead and recast our fund in light of Micah six eight. We’ll let everybody know and I’m going to go ahead and take Dave Gibbons, one of the most popular pastors and speakers on Christian faith in the marketplace out here on the West Coast, going to have Dave Gibbons be our corporate chaplain so that we can be intentional about how we bring God’s love into the work we do. And so, gosh, that’s one area. Maybe we’ll talk about some of the other things going on in other places later, but that’s a big development that none of that happened aside from some of those real estate funds I mentioned. But five years ago it looked a lot different.

John Coleman: Yeah, and that was one of the surprising things for me when I came out of mainstream asset management a couple of years ago and joined sovereigns, Henry was just, I did have questions. We did joke about the Christian music problem. Ross And just if we were going to do this, we had to do it really well, right? If we were going to do this, that all the faith driven products needed to be at least as good as their mainstream counterparts. And we thought that that was possible because being faith driven, abiding by those values actually created the kind of cultures that could outperforming companies or in real estate developments and hopefully serve both the interests of investors for whom you’re a fiduciary as well as the kingdom through faith align impact. And I’ve just been continuously surprised by the breadth of different offerings that are out there and continue to believe that there’s almost no asset class where you can’t have some sort of faith driven impact. I’m sure there are a few we can snipe over time, maybe gold commodities or treasuries or something like that. But it feels like most of your portfolio can get there. Before we dive into portfolio construction, I want to pick up with you, Ross, on a thread that Henry mentioned and then get both of you to weigh in. Henry had mentioned not just the managers, which we’ve just talked about a bit, but also the community. Talk to us a little bit about how you’ve seen the community around faith driven investing broaden and get more active. I know, Ross, you hosts parts of that community at various times. Henry you do as well. Ross what’s happened to that small community of Faith Driven Investor over time?

Ross Roggensack: I think it’s growing. It feels like it’s growing. COVID was certainly a, you know, slowed everybody down in terms of momentum. So it was a little hard to gauge where people are at. I kind of feel like more and more are understanding it, but yet there are many that don’t. And we kind of joke in our shop kind of sometimes we meet with potential clients and you can just tell they’re not engaging. And it’s more a matter of just shaking the dust off and going to the next one instead of trying to coerce or convince someone. I think you either you either grab this or it grabs you or it just passes you by. And so we are more and more satisfied that the Lord will just lead us to people that want to do this, that embrace this, that are looking for ways to do this, to activate and engage their faith in the way that they actually invest money. So I think it’s growing. It feels like it is it’s moving past the negative screening into the positive impact. I think ESG has had a great influence on us, not that we’re becoming ESG investors, but I think we’ve sat back and watched ESG and thought, Oh, I’m wonder if we could do that on our side now. And I think a lot of us and a lot of that talent that Henry was talking about has seen the same thing. And probably thought, man, if they can do that on the social governance side, surely on the faith driven side, we can do it. And so I think it’s growing. I feel like it is. You know, there are moments of discouragement for all of us, but there also are moments of great joy when we get to connect with somebody who says, yeah, let’s go for this, or we engage a new client that two years later says, This is even better than what I expected it to be like this.

John Coleman: I agree Ross.

Ross Roggensack: more joyful than where I thought it would be.

John Coleman: I think the ESG movement in particular has woken people up to the idea that they can invest according to their values and that there are a set of Christian values that are not necessarily running totally contrary to those expressed in ESG, but are probably distinct from those in that there’s an opportunity for Christians to identify those values that they want to see expressed in capital specifically. I mean, Henry, you’ve created two of the biggest ministries in this space, and especially with Faith Driven Investor, you’ve co-founded a ministry that’s seeking to expand the community here domestically and internationally. Talk to us about what you’re seeing on the community side.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I think it’s exploding. I mean, I think it’s I’ll tell you some of the things we’ve seen. So we decided the hallmark to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur ministry over the last two years has been groups, groups of faith driven entrepreneurs to get together and look at content, community gather. So we have just great storytelling mini documentaries coupled with teaching from a guy named J.D. Greer, and it’s groups of 12 or 15 entrepreneurs getting together over eight weeks and then every month going forward and these different types of groups. And we’ve been really, really encouraged by the growth of them. We now have more than 10,000 entrepreneurs that have gone through groups all around the world. So huge growth that we decided based on the success we’d seen with content and community, that we would go ahead and create a beta product to see if we could do something on Faith Driven Investor. So we put together some content from some friends of the movement. We had Tim Keller do a talk for us on the identity of an investor. Andy Crouch on one on God and Mammon. Greg Lernihan on the framework of how to actually go ahead and deploy capital consist with Faith Driven Investor and had 650 folks go through a beta last year and total and we had 400 go through just this most recent nine week cohort. And so it just is growing. So we’re going we’re doing 400 a quarter over the course of this coming year. And we decided that we might take some of those that are going through these groups that are institutional investors. You don’t need to be an institutional investor to go through a group, just need to be an investor. And we tend to bring together groups of accredited investors and groups of peers coming together. We have groups for advisors, but we had some of my friend I live in Silicon Valley, so I’ve got some good friends of mine that are Christian, that are in venture capital. So I had some of them go through a couple of groups that I led, and we decided to do a reunion of sorts out at the Rosewood Hotel out here in Palo Alto. And long story short, we had 164 Christian general partners of venture capital funds and private equity funds at the Rosewood Hotel three weeks ago. And these are people from Andreessen Horowitz from Madrona, Good Water, as we talked about some of the biggest names in the world of private equity venture capital. Most of these in secular funds, but all of them very committed to their Christian faith. And how is it manifests itself at their otherwise secular fund? How does it manifest itself as they work with secular CEOs of portfolio companies? What does that look like? How can we praise God together? How can we pray together? How can we share what God has done in our life together? And this is the first time that most of these folks had ever gathered with other Christians in their profession. And yet there is 164 of them. And then ten days later, we did the same thing in Nairobi, where we had 55 Christian fund managers getting together. And these are I don’t know what the audience is thinking of right now in terms of what a an African fund manager looks like or does or invest in. But we’re talking about people like Richard Okello came out of Bridgewater. He was a partner with Ray Dalio. He’s running just about $400 million in a fund of funds out of Johannesburg, South Africa. Top tier, you know, […] who I met when he was at Wharton, running a couple hundred million dollars, investing in Africa. You know, we’re talking about a continent with greater GDP growth than any other continent in the world and with the demographics. So I could talk about Africa forever. I think it’s amazing. But 55 of these Christians, all of whom are fund managers, getting together to worship together and say, gosh, what does it look like in light of ESG, in light of where God has us to come together and community and to encourage and challenge each other as we allocate capital? And then and to be clear, they’re fiduciary. So they’re not all themselves just investing in faith driven entrepreneurs, though some are. But how do we recognize that God has placed us where he has not just to make a ton of money for our clients or for ourselves, but to be his hands and feet and to be a blessing in the market place, what does that look like? So I’m extraordinarily encouraged by the uptake. And then we’ve had thousands of families come in through the Faith Driven Investor website to go to the marketplace to say who are some of the funds that are out there? And then increasingly, the big question is knowing that we have the supply now and we have the demand. Who are the fund advisors? Who are the river guides out there? They kind of know how to make this happen, understand a family’s need for income or interest in a market or an investment class, and put that together. And that’s what we’re focusing on most in the movement over the course of the coming year. How do we help fund advisors who are, you know, back to Ross in the hockey thing, who understand where the puck is going and seeing that Christian families, Christian institutions are going to get more excited about participating in this space. How do we help them come along, particularly with individual families?

John Coleman: Yes.

Henry Kaestner: Because alts have been difficult for many individual families and then Faith Driven investing has been difficult. But Ross has done such a good job to position himself as this institutional fund advisor that Ross, my prediction is that this is going to be very good year for you.

John Coleman: Well, and Henry to pile on that, I think another question I had coming into the space a couple of years ago is how our clients going to find these products, right? Because almost everything in investing happens through an intermediary like Oak City Ross. And it is encouraging. I mean, Ross is stewarding capital through Oak city for institutions. There are big wealth managers like Ronald Blue Trust and Eversource that are now explicitly serving faith driven communities. We’re seeing firms like LPL develop model portfolios for faith driven investors. I think they have 1000 kingdom advisors now on the LPL platform, and we’ve even seen big firms like NCF recently introduced faith aligned model portfolios for its investments through its donor advice funds. And so a lot of these intermediaries by which individuals or institutions access the market are becoming a lot more open to faith driven investing, even if they are mainstream institutions like LPL. And I think the call to action we probably have for anyone out there is if you’re getting advice, seek out someone who’s going to offer you these options like Ross or lobby the place that you’re at to try and introduce those. I know we’ve got a lot of active discussions going through FDI, through sovereigns and others with big firms that are seeking to serve their Christian clients better. And a part of that is introducing them to the ideas of faith driven investing. Ross, one thing I wanted to dig in on, because you’ve got such a good view of this from where you set your advising a number of different clients with complicated portfolios. You’ve both talked about how we’ve drifted away from just negative screening into some sort of positive engagement, and we hear a lot of frameworks [….] around. We hear avoid, embrace, engage, for example, there are some other frameworks out there. Ross as you think about faith driven investing in 2023, what framework are you introducing to clients to understand that?

Ross Roggensack: Well, we’ve used the framework of redemptive institutional investing, and it sort of stands on four pillars, one being that ownership, that God owns it all, that it’s not ours, that we’re just stewards, we’re just managing it for him, for the ultimate manager. The second pillar is design, that our design is not nearly as good as his, that we need to get under his authority and under his design. Third is that capital has influence. So directed institutional capital towards a cause, towards a movement, can influence culture, can influence living conditions, can influence medicine, can influence housing, can influence clean water, whatever you want, but money can change things. And then last excellence matters that everything we do in word or deed, right? Everything is unto the Lord. And so we should do it really well. We should really focus not on just providing product, but on really solving the problems, both on the investing side and the impact side for institutions. So we call it redemptive institutional investing, avoid, embrace, engage. It’s fine too there’s lots of different monikers. But yeah, we especially believe that that institutional capital, when directed collectively, can really change the world. And again, back to ESG, we’ve seen it change the world some good, some not so good. But we think once especially larger institutions can understand this and grab it, we will, in our day, see change and it will be so great, now I am seeing some. But I’m really anxious to see more.

John Coleman: It’s super encouraging. Ross and I want to zero in your fourth pillar was excellence, and both of you have talked about that a bit. You know, Ross, you’re stewarding client money every day. Henry. You’ve stewarded your own capital as well as the capital of others in a way that’s almost entirely faith aligned for some time. We’ve talked about how important it is that these faith driven investments perform at or above market, at least some of them. Some of them might be concessionary, but many of them you’d want to perform at or above market. Are we seeing that excellence materialize? Henry? Are you able to get the same types of returns in faith driven investments that you can get in mainstream investments today?

Henry Kaestner: Absolutely. So five years ago, I came back from this conference we had in Park City and realized that aside from sovereigns and the stock I had in Bandwidth and Republic, I didn’t have any Faith Driven Investment. And so I thought that’s that’s a challenge. We had lots of secular fund managers because venture capital and real estate and so decided to put together a portfolio just of Faith Driven Investor across pretty much every asset class. And we hired of course in Kenny you’re now works at sovereigns to do that for us. And over the course of two and a half years, you put together a portfolio and gosh. Maybe we’ve got 35 fund managers now that have some level of spiritual integration or written spiritual integration plan to talk about how they want to steward capital. And that goes across the spectrum. And you alluded to this just a second ago, and that is that faith driven investing doesn’t just include market return capital, but really what we look at Faith Driven Investor is it includes a spectrum from market return capital through to patient or concessionary capital, where it’s the outcome that’s most important, not the return that’s much more. With market return capital, the outcome, the return is the most important. Now it’s table stakes. It needs to have some spiritual integration in it. And yet there are lots of opportunities, particularly in frontier and emerging markets, where the outcome can be the most important, where maybe it’s employment or it can be the end of disease. And yet it’s not philanthropy, which we’ll talk about in a second. The best way to accomplish that intervention is through investing in innovation. And yet, in order to get the best maximum outcome, you might sacrifice some return. Maybe that’s because of currency, maybe that’s because of a long term investment in R&D. Whole bunch of different reasons that could be. And then on the other side, of course, there’s philanthropy, all of that. I think that God, well God owns it all. In all, three of those tools are at disposal to be able to be faithful and obedient with number one, understand he owns it all. But then to experience the joy is another thing I want to make sure that our listeners here hear is that we’re talking about an investment strategy that isn’t just born out of faithfulness and obedience, and we’re going to take up our cross and we have to die to self. And all those things are true in Scripture. And yet I think with faith driven investing, God’s calling us into something much greater. It’s a Technicolor existence, a participate in the work that he’s doing in the world and experiencing his joy. But back to your point. Absolutely. Market return is a big, big, big piece of that. And we have found over the course of last five years that our market return investments that we classify as such when we invest in it, when the manager says I seek to meet or exceed that of the secular benchmarks and private equity could be endeavoring to be a top quartile fund, we found that those investments have done better than their secular alternatives. And so about, gosh, in the family office, maybe 50% of the funds that we run are just market return and they have outperformed their secular counterparts.

John Coleman: That’s hugely encouraging. Henry And I know through Faith Driven Investor you actually help make available the holdings in that portfolio and things like that. And so that’s something that others can dig into based on the research that you, Henry, are doing or you’re doing. Ross As you think about and Ross, I want to turn to you obviously were pursuing excellence. There are some strategies that end up being more concessionary, but we’re pursuing excellence. We’ve talked about a number of categories that are being built out. So public equities, negative screening has been around for quite some time. Henry You mentioned 164 GP’s from private equity and venture firms dominantly gathering recently in the explosion of those funds. Where are you seeing gaps in a Faith Driven Investor portfolio right now and where are there asset classes that we need to further innovate to make excellent within faith driven investing? And Ross, maybe kick us off, if you would.

Ross Roggensack: That’s hard. I think that for us we’ve had a real focus on real assets and whether that be oil and gas, farmland, you know, even water. It feels like there’s been some gaps there for us to be able to really bring a a redemptive faith led offering there, you know, growing food, growing it wisely. Protecting the environment are all really important things and they’re redemptive in nature and they promote human flourishing for sure. But to be specifically faith driven, not sure there’s a lot really offered outside of the real estate portion that Henry mentioned. In real assets, I don’t see a lot, but Henry probably sees a lot more than I do there, there is probably a little bit of a gap. I wish there were more offerings in medicine. I don’t see enough there. I wish there were more because I really think that’s an area where we can really have great impact if we harness institutional capital towards that, I think we could really make a difference in drug pricing in lots of different ways that we could affect the marketplace. So those are probably two areas.

John Coleman: Henry, what do you seeing?

Henry Kaestner: Let me just say, I just love the fact that Ross used the word medicine. You know, it’s so many institutional investing conversation and everybody’s talking about pharmaceuticals. When I talk to my wife about needing something, I say, don’t get a pharmaceutical firm. They’re going to give me a medicine. I need medicine. And that’s what we need in America and that’s what we need overseas, which is where I think I’m brought to in terms of the way I think about gaps. And I suppose you could say that there are gaps in a bunch of different places. I remember actually thinking a guy called me up, said, I want to talk to you about this fund that we’ve got and putting together a spiritual integration plan for oil and natural gas. I’m like, How do you do that? I mean, you know, how are you sharing your faith with a barrel of oil or something like that and say that, thank goodness, Because he then talked about an incredible search integration plan about being able to provide ministry to the roughnecks out in the West, Texas, oil fields in the back and oil fields in North Dakota, and really, really impressive. We had a guy on the Faith Driven Investor podcast three or four years ago, Jimmy Song talking about Thank God for Bitcoin. I don’t know that I completely get that yet. Maybe that’s just a function I’m not smart enough to follow, but I don’t know that there are huge gaps. I’ll tell you, there’s a gap though, that I see in the way that faith driven investors are looking to deploy capital. I don’t think that we generally are looking at Africa or frontier emerging markets the way we could, and yet there are some really good fund managers there. I alluded to it a little bit before, but I think it’s important that we as Christ followers look differently at risk. The traditional mindset, and I’ll speak from the perspective of a family office for a second, the traditional mindset has been really that we want to make as much money as we possibly can and to just take whatever pile of money we have and to grow it. Now, if we’re Christians, maybe we think about it a little differently. But you know, if we’re looking to grow that, to what end are we investing our capital, especially if it’s excess capital? Now, to be clear, college planning, retirement planning are incredibly important, and I don’t want to minimize that. And that is the primary need for the vast majority numbers of Americans. And yet there are quite a few family offices that have excess capital, and they’re managing excess capital and they’re looking to get better return. But to what end is it to spend more? Is it to save, to build up for the next generation more? Maybe it’s to give more of its give more. I would challenge us all to think about how we might actually place an investment capital now in a way that maybe philanthropy is not as needed in ten years. So say we want to go ahead. See, I think that you can make a really good case that investing in Africa makes a lot of sense. Right now, you’ve got GDP per capita growing faster than any other continent out there. You’ve got an age of political stability unlike the continent’s ever seen before. Demographics are a huge issue. You know, you have these bulges of population. They’re going to be producing and consuming because the average age in Africa is so young, more entrants in their marketplace in Africa than any other content coming up. I mean, there’s lots of different reasons to invest in Africa, but say you can make the case that you could get a better risk adjusted return by investing in America, and maybe you could make that case. But again, to what end? If it’s to give money to Africa in ten years, we should rethink that. Mm hmm. Philanthropy has not done very well in Africa. Not to say it doesn’t still play an important role. Philanthropy is not dead. We need to be able to give to people who are in need of relief after floods and all sorts of different issues. We need to be able to give into some of the education infrastructure that’s out there. There’s a whole bunch of reasons for philanthropy. And yet if we’re actually invest and there are some incredible funds run with excellence in Africa right now that 99.9% of Americans don’t even know about aren’t even investing. And if we can invest, maybe in investing in job creation, economic development and market forces now toward innovation, especially what’s going on in fintech in Africa, leapfrogging over what we otherwise see in developing economies. Maybe if we invest it now in job creation, maybe you don’t need our philanthropy in ten years.

John Coleman: Before we conclude today, I wanted to kind of circle back to the broad topic of faith driven investing and in kind of 30 or 60 seconds or less, I wanted to hit two questions. The first. What are your big predictions for FDI in 2023? Ross, What do you think you might see this year that’s different for FDI?

Ross Roggensack: Oh. Not sure about different. I know that in 22, biotechnology did very, very poorly. And our firm, we think in five and ten year increments. So we don’t really try to think in one year predictions. But I do think medicine and biotechnology specifically are huge themes for us. And we still believe there’s going to be breakthroughs, maybe even because of COVID, because of the money that was generated. But I think that we’ll see. I think we’re going to see great breakthroughs in medicine, especially in biotechnology this year.

John Coleman: Henry, what’s your prediction for 2023 in FDI?

Henry Kaestner: I think the biggest opportunity out there is investing in lower and middle markets. When you can get in and partner with some really great companies that are making profits right now and get in and attract the multiples, I think we’re going to see a little bit of a cooling with some of the high fliers in the technology sector and venture capital. Venture capital remains a great place for faith driven investors to look at or with a long term horizon. Short term, just incredible opportunities in lower and middle markets.

John Coleman: All right, last question and then I’m going to ask you all to just give us a verse that you’ve been meditating on recently or something you’ve learned from scripture. Very quickly, a lot of folks are on the sidelines right now, or they’ve relegated Faith Driven Investor thing to a small impact bucket in the larger portfolio that they have. What’s your advice to someone who just wants to get in the game Ross?

Ross Roggensack: Well, I guess my advice would be much like the woman who touches the garment. Like I mentioned before, I think just act on your faith. If you want to be faith led, then move yourself to action. And I don’t think the Lord is going to bless the performance, but he’s certainly going to bless us if we act. And so don’t be afraid. You know, just move, act, act in faith. And I think that just too many people have bought into the lie that it doesn’t work. And I think that people just need to act.

Henry Kaestner: Jon, knowing that your last question is going to be about what is God teaching us through his word, I’ll combine the two answers into one and then maybe you’ll finish with Ross with asking what he’s hearing from God in his Word. So for me, the thing that’s really been sobering as I go back through the Old Testament is the lessons from the Good Kings of Judah. Of course, in the bad kings of Judah. Well, don’t do what the bad kings of Judah did. But interestingly, you know, don’t do what the […..] share of the Good Kings of Judah did as well, which is that just about every one of them didn’t ask God before they went off into battle or did a trade deal. And these are men that had great common sense, were godly people. They were men after God’s heart, Scripture tells us. And yet, at a critical venture, they didn’t seek God. And so that’s a sobering lesson for me. I think back over the last year about how many decisions I made without seeking God first. And I want to endeavor to do that. And so absolutely, as I look to allocate his capital, I got to get down on my knees. I guess I got to ask, God, what would you have me do practically that would be the most important thing, followed by looking to find a good river guide. There are lots of different options now, and that’s the good news. But it does present a little bit more of a challenge. What is the right strategy for the pool of capital that you’ve been asked to steward? And we’re not meant to do this alone. So finding a good river guide.

John Coleman: Yeah. Ross Henry’s right. He introduced this question and knew it was coming. And we try and conclude every podcast with just what God is teaching you through scripture that you want to share right now. Any thoughts on your end?

Ross Roggensack: Well, I meditate often on first Timothy six two, which is a verse that means a lot to me. It basically is Paul is really encouraging us to. It says rather, they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers in beloved. If we are serving fellow believers, I think it’s required of us that we should serve. It says all the better that people should not do this expecting Christian results that they should expect for us to serve them even better because they’re believers and beloved. And so I think that what we do can really have great impact because the Lord’s with us and because he expects us to do it all the better. So, yeah, I think that Paul’s words really ring in my ears often to really serve all the better.

John Coleman: What an awesome way to conclude the podcast. Ross. Ross. Henry, Very grateful for you all. As a relative newcomer to the space, I’m still learning at the feet of giants here like you too. Ross You’re certainly conducting a great ministry through your work at Oak City.

Ross Roggensack: I’m just old John I am just old John

John Coleman: Appearances wise, weathered and wise. And Henry, of course, deeply grateful to be your partner, business partner, as well as to see the ministries at FDE FDI flourishing. And we’re grateful to you all for your leadership in the space. Thank you for coming on the FDI podcast today.

Ross Roggensack: Thank you, John.

Henry Kaestner: John, thanks for your leadership. Great doing with you guys. Thanks Ross.

Ross Roggensack: You bet.