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Discover how a chance meeting between a professor and student blossomed into managing 50,000 acres of premium farmland. Hear why investing in farmland with sustainable water resources offers both consistent income and long-term appreciation potential. Join Chris Morris and John Farris as they reveal how regenerative farming practices are restoring the land while delivering impressive returns for investors.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ-following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening. 

Narrator Hey everyone, all opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. And this podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening. 

Richard Cunningham Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast. It’s the end of March. We’re thrilled to have you with us. Luke, I’m fired up about our conversation today. We’re talking farmland investing, ag investing with Chris Morris and John Farris of Land Fund Partners. What a joy to have you guys in the studio with us. Luke, you know these guys well, are big admirers of theirs. Before we say hey to them, man, how are you? Tell us a little about land fund partners from your angle. 

Luke Roush You know, it’s a shame that we’re 195 podcasts into the FDI podcast. And this is the first conversation that we’ve had with an agricultural farmland investor. That’s an important asset class. And there’s also a lot of, I think, surprising in some ways ministry opportunities as these guys go about their work and think about the mandate to restore the earth. So I’m really excited. I’ve known John and Chris for a long time. I’ve known of the fund and been personally involved. and I’m really grateful to have them on today. So I’m looking forward to the conversation. 

Richard Cunningham Well, gentlemen, coming to us from Nashville, Tennessee, today, John, as I understand you split some time between Nashville and Kentucky. Chris, you’re in Nashville full-time. Great to have you guys with us. How’s it going? Maybe give us a little bit of background on who you both are individually, how you guys met, and kind of the early origin stories of Land Fund as we dive into today’s pod. 

John Farris Yeah, thanks Richard, thanks Luke. And Luke, you may not know this story, but it’s an epic God story. Your dad has a lot to do with Chris and I meeting. 

Luke Roush I did not know that actually, this is awesome. 

John Farris Yeah, so my background as an ag economist at the World Bank, moved back to Kentucky for my roots and was teaching at Center College where I went to school and Luke’s dad was president there, amazing, amazing guy. And I was an adjunct professor and at the time they didn’t offer health insurance to adjunct professors. In 2009, we just had our third child, our third daughter and I was leaving to go be a professor at University of Kentucky and Luke’s dad got plan that I was gonna. leave the college because I couldn’t get insurance because of the policy. And he stepped in and made a change to that policy. And then my very next class that I was teaching in the fall of 2009, Chris Morris was one of my star students. 

Richard Cunningham That’s so cool. 

John Farris Yeah, land fund would not be, you know, it’s kind of a divine intervention by John Roush and some others would not be here if it wasn’t for Luke’s dad. So that’s kind of a cool way that brings it full circle. So yeah, Chris was one of my. My background had been at the World Bank and had done a lot of studying on water and the importance of water and how important it would be to feed the growing population of this earth over the next 50 years. And talked a little bit about it and had an idea and Chris had the pleasure of having him as a student both in the fall of 2009 and the spring of 2010. And maybe I’ll let Chris take it from there. 

Chris Morris Yeah, so yeah, definitely very cool story and amazing the ways that all this has come together, but yeah, Chris Morris, president of land fund, as John mentioned, we’ve been together since day one and even, you know, pre-founding of the firm, I’m from a small town in Kentucky called Maysville, Kentucky. Grew up in a pretty rural community. It was around farming, did some summer farm jobs. And that made me say, wow, I really need to go get a college degree. So I went to center college in Kentucky. to study economics and finance, met John, and it was an interesting time to be studying finance and investing in diversification post-financial crisis. Everything really changed in 08, 09, and farmland was one of those things that hit a radar and I had some familiarity with, and that entrepreneurial interest to go and start something with someone great like John. So yeah, so very full circle how it’s come around. 

Luke Roush Hey, and just, you know, because you’ll leave this out, Chris, but you were also a collegiate athlete. So tell us about your illustrious golfing career. I think you’re a national champion, right? 

Chris Morris Yeah, a long time ago. So yeah, I played golf at center college and I was fortunate to get a little bit better every year and in 2011 won the national championship individual tournament and got the Jack Nicklaus award, got to meet Jack Nicklaus. And wow, that’s great. You know, the team was the best team finish in school history and the NCAA tournament. And yeah, so, you know, it was very, very fun to do. Got to play a lot of free golf. D3 Athletics, can’t promote it enough, but yeah, still great friends and learned a lot from the game and athletics and competition. 

John Farris I played golf through Luke, but not at that level. 

Richard Cunningham John knows better than to wager against Chris. Sounds like he’s an absolute stick. Chris, one of our upcoming FDI podcast guests, but the podcast has already been recorded as a guy who leads a successful wealth management shop here in Austin named Travis Pinfield, 49 Financial. He just went and got to spend the day with Jack and Barbara Nicholas. Just some random connection, and he said he’s never been more nervous in his life than putting with Jack Nicholas standing behind him, giving him instruction. He’s like, dude, do you know who you are as you evaluate my putting stroke right now? So that’s really cool to hear. So what was the moment? What was the magic moment? Was it Chris coming to John and saying, hey, I’ve got an idea for land fund, or was it professor going to student and saying, hey, you need to go start this thing? How did it come to fruition? 

John Farris Here’s the magic moment is like after doing some studying, I really wanted to buy a hundred acres of farmland and that’s all I could afford. And so the magic moment was through the grace of God, I met Billy Ussery down in the Mid-South. I knew that I wanted to buy in the Mid-South and because of the water situation, I’ve done a lot of research and studied how important that would be and we can go into that in a bit, but. Billy said, you know, you seem like a nice guy, so I want to tell you like 100 acres. That’s not going to do anything. And it’s really not a great investment. You need scale, you know, to be able to have an investable product, you need, you know, about 2,500 acres. And we went over a few things and I said to Billy, Hey, Billy, you know, if I was to raise the capital and find investors to invest alongside me, would you be willing to manage the farms? with us and would you be willing to help us find the farms and what would be something you and your family would like to invest in? And you know, he thought I was a dreamer. So he said, yes, I don’t know if you thought I would come back. So I set out and contacted Chris and said to Chris, you know, hey, I got this idea. I want to start a land fund or farm investing fund in the U.S. in the Mid-South. Chris was Thanks for watching! I think licking his wounds from the PGA Tour qualifying and said, you know, sure, I’ll come alongside you. And so we set out and started Land Fund Partners in 2012 and had our first fund in 2013 with the 2500 acre farm in Midland Lake, Mississippi. So we’re just very fortunate. It’s really evolved since then. That was 2500 acres. Now we manage about 50,000 acres in the Mid-South and, you know, we can go into how and Bye. different aspects of farmland in the mid-south, but we really think we’ve built something that couldn’t be replicated. If we had started today and tried to do it 13 years from now, we don’t think we could replicate it. And it’s just, we were just fortunate timing, grace of God, just very lucky, very fortunate. 

Luke Roush Maybe a term that I was not familiar with before getting to know you guys, but I’ve become familiar with and I’ve probably repeated it a thousand times since our first meeting, but the alluvian aquifer. Talk a little bit about that. Talk a little bit about just kind of the play. Why Mid-South, right? There’s a bunch of farmland investors up in the Midwest and kind of out West. Why Mid-South? And sort of just talk about the importance of water and sort of what the investment thesis is there as a resource that God’s given us. I think it’s relevant here. 

Chris Morris Yeah, so the Mississippi alluvial aquifer is underneath 100% of our farmland assets. You can actually look at it, you can Google it, see where it is. Not every part of it is created equal, but by our analysis, there’s about 320 years of remaining water availability underneath our farms. So we just think that that’s incredibly important when you see some of the overuse of water aquifers in other parts of the country, other parts of the world. you know, pollution, other factors. And our aquifer system is somewhat unique because it is replenished by the Mississippi River. So the Mississippi River leaves the third largest river in the world and it comes into that Mississippi Delta area. You can almost think of the aquifer like a big bathtub. So as you pump water out, it does draw down a bit, but then each spring, the river level rises. and it essentially fills that bathtub back up would be one way of thinking of it in a very rudimentary fashion. But yeah, it’s a tremendous resource. We have over 300 wells on our portfolio that are irrigating the farms. So the wells go about 150 feet deep and in some areas the water level is about 30 feet under the surface. So very easy to tap into and efficiently irrigate the land, our portfolios over. 

Speaker 6 92% irrigated, which is a pretty large amount. Yeah, let me just jump in there, and that’s different than… 

John Farris Midwest probably a lot of people are familiar with the Corn Belt and the Midwest and that’s a great fertile area of the country but the difference being they’re very weather dependent. They’re fortunate to have the seasonality and the good rains and mother nature is kind to them most years but some years you you experience drought and you can’t depend on that rain and the difference being mid-south because we’re 92% irrigated you know our farmers can use drip irrigation and other irrigation techniques. even if it doesn’t rain, and that allows them to, you know, prosper in times. And then it’s also a little warmer. So we need that irrigation and that irrigation system. But what we’ve seen when our thesis was when we focused in the area on the alluvial aquifer was that, you know, eventually prices in the Midwest for farmland per acre and the Mid-South where we are would converge. And when we started in 2012, prices per acre were about 140% higher than the Mid-South. And now that has converged to where they’re just 100% higher. But when we look at it, and when I say 100% higher, you’re talking about similar land with the same yield. So you have this corn that may yield the same in the Mid-South as Midwest high quality farmland trading for or selling for $15,000 an acre in the Midwest and in the Mid-South where we are, our portfolio is about $8,000 an acre. So. When we look at that, we’re like, and as an economist, you try to figure that out because we have crop diversity, we have the water, we have similar yields. So we eventually think over time, those prices will converge. And we’ve seen slow but steady incremental progress in that convergence theory, and that’s what we started with. 

Richard Cunningham So John, you’re getting into a little bit of explain kind of the mechanics of the business and how this process works when you guys go find a farm or a farmer, what building that relationship looks like, and just kind of land funds value prop, if you will. 

John Farris Yes, we really couldn’t do it without our farm managers. They live in the area, they grew up in the area, they go to church in the area, they eat at the local diner. And we have fortunate to have three full-time and one part-time farm managers who help us. And they’re our boots on the ground. They’re our secret sauce, as I would say. They really know the area, they know all the farmers and they’ve taught us that it’s real important to be good stewards of the land and of the community. And that has come back to us. The way we’ve treated people over time in the mid-south as opposed to other funds. So there are other farmland investment funds in the area, bigger funds and funded by pensions and other things. And sometimes the members of the community treated more like an asset and not like a partnership. And we treated, it’s very important to us to be good stewards of the land, good neighbors. and that’s really come around. And the mechanics really go like this. We identify through our farm managers help identify land for sale. Oftentimes we’re buying from families. So it’s a very emotional transaction for them. They may, like me, have three daughters that have moved away. And the average age of a farmer in the U.S. is close to 60. So the farmer may be ready to retire and they need to sell the land because they have a lot of their capital and their wealth tied up into the land. So we step in with our farm managers and we have a 20 point due diligence checklist that the land has to pass. And we evaluate the land based on different types of crops, the soil, many different factors. And we also underwrite with our farmers, not our farm managers, but our farmers. So we have about 20 farmers that work with us. And those farmers, they are often taken to the land and say, what would you rent this ground for? And that starts our underwriting process. So we know exactly what would you plant? What do you think about this soil? And that allows us to have a lot of underwriting for farmers like some years we’ll underwrite close to a billion dollars worth of farmland but only close on 20 million. And that’s just because we have a very stringent process and return hurdle that we need the land to make. So that’s what we start with. That’s the starting point. Maybe Chris, you wanna say how it goes from there? 

Chris Morris Yeah. And to add onto that, you know, so we’ll acquire an asset after, as John mentioned, a really strict due diligence process. And then we’re going to lease that farm out to one of our farmers. And, you know, important to note, one of the things that we’re doing at every farm is saying, how do we make this farm better? Sometimes it’s pretty straightforward where, hey, we can put in a new irrigation system that really helps increase the productivity and cash flows from the farm, grain bins, other assets. But then regenerative farming is also something that we seek to implement on every single farm. And all of our farmers have, in our lease agreements, they agree to do at least one regenerative practice on that farm per year. And we named our fund, it’s called actually the Soil Enrichment Fund. So from the outset, we have been very intentional about incorporating regenerative farming into what we do. Thanks for watching! That’s, you know, for a few reasons, but particularly restoring soil health and, you know, within the Christian worldview of restoring land to how it was intended to be over the last 60 or 70 years, you know, industrial farming has been great. There’ve been a lot of positives about being able to feed the world and higher crop yields, et cetera. But one of the side effects of that, you know, synthetic fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides, has been that in some ways the soil has been degraded. more erosion, just natural soil health has dropped off. And regenerative farming is incorporating a suite of practices that actually, you know, you can think about like using nature to heal nature. You know, it was designed to work a certain way. And there are things like cover cropping and no till, reduced till, all these things that can actually improve soil health over time, which doesn’t just make the soil better, it makes your farmer more profitable. And it’s really a with the farmers to come along. and walk with us in that process of restoring soil health. 

Luke Roush I want to go deeper on that, Chris, but before we do, just something that’ll be familiar to our listeners we’ve talked about before in the context of investing and faith-driven investing in particular, you know, I grew up with kind of the two-part gospel of, you know, man and woman is sinful and we need a savior, right? That’s sort of the two-part gospel that I grew up with. The reality is that the biblical narrative is not a two-part gospel, it’s a four-part gospel. The first is the creation mandate right the world was made in seven days and God has made us in his image, therefore we are creative, right? So we’re creating new things. Of course, kind of the fall of man and sort of bad decisions that we make in need of a savior, those two parts are very real. But then there’s this sort of fourth part of the gospel too, that sort of a meta-narrative that runs through scripture around restoration, that we’re actually called to actually try to restore the earth, to try to restore human relationship to what was originally intended. in the garden, right? And so when we say the Lord’s Prayer, we say that kingdom come here on earth as it is in heaven. This idea of sort of the world burning and going away and then we’re all going someplace else, that’s actually not a biblical construct. The construct is that like, actually, we are to restore the earth as it was originally intended in the garden. And that’s something that has really resonated with me, as you guys have crafted a strategy either kind of wittingly in that direction or sort of unwittingly, you know, God led you in that direction. It’s actually one of the beautiful narratives of what’s possible in the realm of kind of farming and ag investing. Talk a little bit more about what that journey has been like for you guys as you’ve gone down this road in partnership with your farmers, right? Cause it’s not necessarily something that you do it and then you see the payoff, you know, in day two, right? It’s something you got to stick with and you got to build over time. I’d love to have you guys just comment a bit more on that. 

John Farris Yeah, I’d love to, and I think that’s how we’re unique. Not only are we unique that we’re just focused in the Mid-South and on our water thesis, but we have regenerative practice and restoration practices on 100% of our farms. And that is another sort of epic God story. I was riding with our farm manager, Billy Ussery, again in 2018, and I wish Billy was here to help tell the story. we were looking at a neighboring farm and he said, you know, I grew up here. I’ve been here my whole life and that farm’s only done 40 bushels per acre of beans. I’ve never seen it do more. Now it’s doing 60. And I said, what are they doing? And he said, well, they’re doing this thing called regenerative farming. So of course, you know, as an economist, I had just dove right into it and try to figure out like, what does that mean and how do we do that? And you can look how fertile that ground was. So in 2019, we decided to try a pilot on regenerative farming on one of our farms. And we realized there’s a mini J curve. Those investors, you’re gonna lose money the first year, first couple of years, but that’s because you’re gonna be investing in the soil and doing cover crops and doing things that are a little more expensive than just leaving the ground it says. But over time, All the research and what we’ve seen shows that then three to five years in, the soil’s gonna be a lot healthier. It’s gonna require less pesticides, fertilizer. You’re also, your yields are gonna be higher. Your water use is gonna be lower. You’re really doing what, you know, the way that God created the earth to restore it. And you’re tilling less. You’re not going deeper into the earth. You’re really making that soil. So you’re taking less runs across the farm to plant, so less tilling, and so you’re saving money on the diesel. So. the researchers, you should be making 30 to 40% higher net income three to five years out by these practices. So it’s really a win-win. The hard part for us, and we have a number of anecdotal stories on this, but the hard part for us was to convince the farmers that this needed to be done, especially in year one and two. We had a 70-year-old farmer, one of our bigger farmers who had been farming since he was 15, and he said, I’ve never done a cover crop. And we said, you know. come with us on this David, you know, try it out. And he did. And the great part about that story is not only does he do cover cropping every year on the land fund farms, but he started to do it on his other farms. And it’s that leading by example. And now we see it, the practices that we’ve taught our 20 farmers being adopted across the Mid-South. And that’s, you know, for us a beautiful thing because that example hopefully will spread. You know, we have the largest cover cropping. You see it from satellites. You can see that, you know, our cover cropping program, which is really cool. And we’re really proud of we’re really proud of the fact that we’ve spread that message of restoring the earth and that the farmers have now bought in. And we go over the regenerative plan for our farms. And we have it in the lease by February of every year. So we just finished it last month. So, yeah, and Chris may want to add a few things there, but it’s something that we’re really proud of. We’re really proud that we are leading. by example, and it’s doing wonderful things for the Earth. 

Richard Cunningham Man, that’s awesome. I’m about to expose myself so bad. I’m born and raised in downtown Austin. Even though it is the state of Texas, I’m a total city yuppie. And so you guys have said it multiple times, but talk to me about this process of cover crops. Like I don’t even know what we’re talking about there. And some of it like kind of double click into some of these regenerative practices. And I mean, Luke is just laughing at me so hard right now as I asked this question. But then also, is it that big of a deal? I mean, like we’re in the make America healthy again era right now. And this is, I mean, it is talked about 24 seven and kind of just like, hey, let’s get the soil back to as what you guys are talking about. Just like what it was intended to be, God’s good design. I mean, is that what you guys are seeing? Like, are you confirming this right now in your work that this is a really big deal and kind of what’s going on, what we’re putting on our crops. 

Chris Morris Yeah, I’ll take it for stabs. So yes, so great question. And certainly there are a lot of we’re ag economics, you know, 500 seminar, not farmland 101 right now. So happy to back up. So yeah, so most people would be familiar with a typical cash crop, right? So typically, you would have, let’s say soybeans, for example, planted in May, farmers and plants, it grows all year, it’s harvested and September, October timeframe and is sold to the local grain facility and that soybean crop turns into cash. The farmers paid cash money for that crop. And this is how it generally is done. That’s the end of the story for that farm. What a cover crop is, is then after you harvest the main cash commodity, you go back and you plant a crop that is not for cash value necessarily. different types of grasses, cereal rye, something called brassicas, turnips and radishes, wild turnips that are planted. And then what happens is those grow all winter into the spring. So instead of the land laying fallow, getting rained on, snowed on, becoming hard pan, you know, just laying there barren, you’re actually planting a living breathing crop that is taking breathing carbon dioxide. carbon is going through that plant, through the root system back into the earth, which actually increases organic carbon. And that is a key factor in soil health and how productive that soil can be. So it’s a really beautiful cycle incorporating those cover crops in. And another benefit is when you go to plant again in April or May of the next year, the root system of that you know, living, breathing plant has kept the soil broken up and it’s not hard pan, it’s not packed down so you don’t have to heavy till and you can then it’s more easy to do those things like low till, no till, which, you know, even further increases the benefits. 

Speaker 6 So it’s a really virtuous cycle. And that’s what it covers. It’s pretty cool. Chris, why would someone till? Like maybe just grab tilling, like why you. 

John Farris till versus no till and how the planting works. 

Chris Morris Yeah, so if you have a hard pan, right? It’s very hard to get a seed into the ground. So if you fast forward to the spring, if the land is hard packed, then you’re gonna have to go till and you’re gonna drag an implement behind your tractor that is going to go sometimes eight, 10, 12 inches deep into the earth and turn up that soil to break the surface so that you can drop seeds in a row down the field. And so you don’t have to disrupt the natural soil. biology as much when you do things like cover cropping you can do what’s called strip till or no till where it’s much less Invasive and that allows the soil to keep doing its thing to store Organic carbon and to become more productive 

Luke Roush Well, in the same way that we know a lot more about the microbiome and the human gut today than we did a few years ago, there’s also a microbiome in the soil, right? And so every time you sort of turn that up, it’s some version of kind of sterilizing it. But to the extent that you can allow that microbiome to continue to build, you’ve got a much healthier condition for future crops. Maybe speak a little bit about what that looks like. Well, first off, make sure that I’m accurate in what I just said. 

John Farris You’re 100% right. 

Luke Roush Second off, maybe speak a little bit about just the timeframe required to kind of see results from this sort of innovation. 

John Farris Yes, I mean, we’ve seen it in the Midwest. It’s a short time frame. It’s, you know, one to two years. For the Mid-South, because of historical practices and the way ground has been farmed, it typically takes about three years for us to see the results that we want. And we’re well into it with many of our farms and we’ve seen the results and we’re believers and we’re going to keep doing it. You know, when we started the Soil Enrichment Fund in 2021, We told all of our investors, we’re going to do this. We’re going to do this for all of our farms. We’re going to be intentional about it. Some firms, the funds, and I don’t want to speak highly of them, but give it lip service. They say we’re regenerative or sustainable. But we didn’t want to do that. We wanted to be really intentional and make sure that we do it on every farm. We can point to the results. We do soil testing, Luke and Richard, on all of our farms. And we measure the organic matter and the carbon that’s brought back into the soil. And soil health is so important. That’s what we think our investors are investing in. And that’s what we’re trying to restore and build something the way we think was intended to be used and over the longterm. That’s great. Man, that’s super cool. 

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I’ve got a couple of questions here and they’re both a little bit more pointed and maybe you each take one of them. First one is, is there any pushback from the local farmers and these folks you’re going into about private equity money coming in? Maybe not land fund in particular, but just generally kind of the concept of folks like yourself who come in as more of an institutional capital partner. That’s one. And then two, now I’m putting my investor hat on, my LP hat on, and the folks that kind of partner with land fund. We’re in this high interest rate environment where I can go get 4% to 6% risk free in the treasury environment. And from what I am seeing and hearing here is a kind of passive inflation hedge, cash yield plus residual down the road, but there you add on and layer on risk with the illiquidity of partnering with the fund and a long-term process and things of that nature. How do you respond to those objections from investors when they said, hey, I can go get cash yield for far less risk, quote unquote, if you will, even as buttoned up and dialed as y’all’s process is. What do both of those look like? Maybe start with kind of the PE money entering into farmland and then the investor seat. 

John Farris Yeah, so the P.E. money, I mean, what we’ve seen is there’s a lot of now institutional capital, a lot more institutional capital coming in for farmland, particularly U.S. farmland. But if you look at the macro level in the U.S., it’s still less than 5% owned by institutional capital. So there’s a long way to go. And then you think about the locals. Yes, You can alienate the farming community really easily if… One, you don’t treat the ground right. You don’t treat the farmers right. You don’t treat the community right. And the thing that we started hearing down in the Mid-South, when we were working in the Mid-South, after about five years, we were hearing from farmers, we really liked those land fund guys and fund partner guys. And I would always ask, elaborate on that, and they would say, well, you all do what you say you’re gonna do. And I was like, I don’t know another way. Do people do something different than what they say they’re gonna do? They were like, yeah, you’d be surprised. the bigger funds sometimes come in and they switch the rules on the farmers and mid crop or they at the closing table, they’ll change the price that they’re gonna pay when a family’s all lined up. But we are the institutional capital with boots on the ground, local farm managers that farmers know. And so we see and it’s certainly something that we’re aware of, but we think that we’ll try to lead by example with the way we treat the farmers, treat the community. and what’s very important in our hiring process that we treat them. And sometimes it’s not just about squeezing the next nickel out of the farmer, right? Some farmers have had a tough year last year with uncertainty and family uncertainty, and we wanna make sure that we’re good partners with them, and sometimes that requires us not trying to maximize returns in the short term, short run, when we know that over the long term that’s gonna come back to us the way we treat people. And so that’s really important and something that we emphasize, you know, we emphasize to our farm managers, all of our employees is that it’s not just about making the next nickel. Now, fortunately we’ve had great returns and there’s lots of reasons that we do it differently. And I’ll turn over to Chris and just say, you can indiscriminately buy farmland and yes, you’ll make 5% generally around, you know, the U S you can indiscriminately do that. But we do, we’re different and we have best in class returns and I’ll let Chris take it over from there. 

Chris Morris Yeah, and Richard, to answer the question about the rate environment returns, how does farmland compare? You know, you’re certainly correct, 10-year yield today is probably around 4.3%, which is different than it was, you know, for much of the past decade. That has changed things on the margin, but just talking about farmland specifically as an asset class, if you go all the way back to World War II, it’s not just the cash flow component from leasing out the farms, but also the appreciation of the land. It is a scarce resource that they are not making any more of, right? We’re actually losing tillable farmland acres in the United States due to path of development, other issues. We’re just losing total farmland while trying to feed more and more people on the planet. So that scarcity, that supply and demand actually increases the value of farmland. So since back to World War II, to finish that thought, the USDA has farmland appreciating at about 5.2% a year. So that’s back to the 1940s. In our area of the country specifically, if you look at the past 20 years, the compound annual growth rate has been 6.2%. So if anything, we see it potentially accelerating due to the scarcity, but trying to feed even more people. and not just population-wise, also more protein-rich diets, a more rich protein diet, and then we’re talking globally. In the U.S., we’re very fortunate to have more than we need, but in much of the world, people don’t even have one meal of protein a day. As they move up the GDP per capita scale, it becomes two meals with protein a day. You need even more soybeans and corn to feed the chickens and the pigs and the thousand. So. We see that long-term appreciation is a key part of the return in addition to the cash flow, which typically a farm lease historically is going to generate four to five percent gross cash flow. That’s farmland as an asset class. We see it certainly performing differently than a treasury. You mentioned bonds. Farmland has also been referred to as gold with a coupon. So, as inflation goes higher… Commodity prices are denominated in dollars. Commodity prices go up. Our farmers are able to make more money, which means our rents actually increase annually. Whereas a bond, you’re getting paid a fixed amount over that 10-year period. So yeah, it’s a little different than treasuries, but overall, just a really unique, non-correlated, inflation-hedged asset class. 

Luke Roush Yeah, I think that’s a good case for the asset class. And I think you guys do it a bit differently than your peer group. One of the things I was really impressed with just going down and seeing y’all’s operations there. Uh, you know, and again, I’m just, I’m kind of watching from the sidelines and have followed along with you guys, but I really appreciated the fact that you got boots on the ground, you know, what we’ve seen repeatedly with other asset managers that we’ve had on is that proximity to deal flow helps to ensure that you get looks on the right things. And I think Billy… is unique in terms of his local credibility and relational capital and you know maybe speak just one more question then we’ll go to wrap but speak to a little bit of how you think about tucking in sort of smaller parcels right so back to kind of this idea of 2,500 acres critical mass how do you think about actually the buy and build approach to these regions where you operate? 

John Farris That’s a great question because that’s a major part of our thesis and how we do things. We now, as I mentioned, have close to 50,000 acres and we can think of those as little pods. We have several, about a half dozen farms which we’ve managed to piece together that are more than 5,000 acres. We have a 9,000 acre track in Lee County, Arkansas. and what we’ve focused on in our underwriting. bolting smaller farms onto our larger holdings. And that’s called plotage. There’s many terms for it. And it is similar to private equity, rolling up a number of small companies together. And that’s what we’re doing because some of the parts is so much more valuable. When a farmer thinks about, well, I can farm 9,000 acres and keep my labor and my equipment on this one farm, they’re certainly willing. to pay more rent than a 500 or 250 acre farm that’s 10 miles away. It’s just the economics of the unit. They have so much of their capital tied up in their labor and their equipment. And the more they can keep them concentrated and focused and use them and reuse the equipment in the same area, the more profit they’re gonna make. So that’s been our strategy to build out these regional farms. We’ll call them in the Mid-South and. It’s really worked. In fact, we’re building something that is so coveted by many different institutions that we know that the value of it, the value creation we’re doing is so important. And why is that? These pension funds and the Mormon Church is a big buyer in our area and some other folks that you’ve heard about in the news buy a lot of farmland. They don’t want to do the work that we do. They want to come in and buy a 5,000 acre fully improved tract. know, that has a three-year solid rent history. That’s what we build. We’re building those. And, you know, we’re building something that we don’t think we recreate. We’re long-term holders. We tell our investors that, you know, we intend to hold for the long term. There are opportunities, opportunistic times to sell, you know, but we do that rarely. We’re more holders of the ground over the long term and builders and continue to build because that scale and that regional presence is going to be unlike, you know, any other fund that we know of. 

Richard Cunningham Guys, this has been a great pod on so many fronts. And I’m so grateful the Faith Driven Investor audience is gonna kind of get to hear this and from the 101 to the going deeper and just all of it. There’s so many angles about what to like about what you guys are doing here. And so thank you for taking the time to educate our audience. And let’s close here. And this is our favorite question to ask on every FDI pod. Chris, we’ll start with you, but man, what’s God been teaching you guys and through his word lately? And we’ll wrap there with some good wisdom. 

Chris Morris Yeah, absolutely. And great question. And for me, over the last several months, I have two little kids and teaching them to pray at night with them before bed. And that’s also reinvigorated me to pray more in my own life, right? Sometimes it’s going back to the fundamentals and remembering the key elements of letting Jesus into your heart and living in that way. I have a Bible app on my phone actually and This morning, it was from Revelation. Here I am, I stand at the door and knock. And I think for me, it’s just remembering to open the door because God wants to help and He’s there. So. 

Richard Cunningham Come on, back to the fundamentals. John, what about you? Take us home. 

John Farris Yes, I’ve really been thinking in the last few months about control and like having, you know, the elements that may think are in our control or we may try to control really, you know, God’s got this. He’s got us and He holds us and helps us in so many ways that I, you know, have the tendency to try to want to over control situations, even situations that are in my control. So just taking a step back and realizing that There’s a higher power, there’s a higher meaning, and you know, he’s got a plan for us and what we’re doing, both the land fund and the rest of our lives. 

Richard Cunningham I cannot tell you how deeply in my bones I feel the control idol, as is my wife who suffers from that idol of mine. But I mean, thank you guys, Chris Morris, John Ferris, Land Fund Partners. Love the work you guys are up to. What a joy to have you on the Faith Driven Investor podcast. For Luke Roush, I’m Richard Cunningham. Thank you all for tuning in and we will catch you next time. 

Speaker 7 We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see listeners come in from more than 100 countries. Faith-driven investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors, looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter at faithdriveninvesting.org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends, executive producer Justin Forman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Draggs, audio and editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb. 

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In a world where darkness lurks behind every screen, can capitalism become an unlikely hero? This eye-opening episode reveals how entrepreneurs and investors are wielding the power of business to combat sexual exploitation and human trafficking. From AI-powered solutions to disruptive economic strategies, discover how faith-driven innovators are turning the tables on predators and reshaping the battlefield in the fight for human dignity. Prepare to have your perspective challenged and your hope rekindled as we explore the cutting edge of redemptive entrepreneurship.

This episode, hosted by Richard Cunningham and Justin Forman, delves into the critical issue of online sexual exploitation and human trafficking, exploring innovative approaches to combat these pervasive problems. Dr. Lisa Strohman, a clinical psychologist with FBI experience, and Wes Lyons, a venture capitalist, offer their expertise and insights into this complex challenge.

Episode Transcript

You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ, following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening. Hey everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Faith Driven podcast. And I say faith driven without entrepreneur or investor on the back end, specifically, as Justin Forman, executive director and president of Faith Driven Movements, is in the podcast studio. We’re doing something fun today and unique where we zoom in on one of the solving the World’s greatest problem themes, and we do it on our FDE and FDI podcast as we’re going to bring in marketplace leaders, entrepreneurs, investors alike talking about this particular problem. And we’ll introduce our guests here shortly. But Justin, big episode today, a tough topic as the particular problem we’re highlighting. It’s a heavy one. And I want to give you kind of some time to give context of this episode and then we’ll introduce our guests.

Justin Forman Yeah, big episode. And when we talk about solving the world’s greatest problems, we don’t have to look far to see how dark it is out there and to see how dark some of these things. And certainly this is one of those it’s one of the darkest places that you might look in terms of solving the world’s greatest problems. But as the world gets darker, I think we get more encouraged when we see light breaking through and we see entrepreneurs and investors doing things and pulling on solutions and levers that haven’t been pulled on before. And, you know, I’m I don’t know about you, Richard, but often times I feel my heart break. And I think of oftentimes the survivors, the people that are been hurt and they have been wounded. And what encourages me most about this group and so many others in solving the world’s greatest problems is the people that are getting upstream and thinking about what is that other lever and what is that other issue upon. And I think with today’s friends, as they share about what’s happening here, there’s an economic lever to some of these solutions. And oftentimes we don’t see these. We see our humanity, our brokenness, the morality. But we don’t know that there’s like really an economic problem to solve that if you can disrupt the economics, if you can disrupt some things for good, that some of the downstream things get that much more turned around. And so I think it’s a fun way where we get to see entrepreneurs and investors really stepping in to solve some of these big problems.

Richard Cunningham Today, the adult entertainment industry is a technologically advanced and high strategic engine. It knows how to prey on the most innocent, the most susceptible and the most unsuspecting among us. And their strategy is working. The average age of someone’s first exposure to pornography is 12 years old, and that initial dose of unsolicited supply creates an avalanche of demand. Porn sites receive more monthly traffic than Netflix, Amazon and Twitter combined. That’s all the movies watched on Netflix, all the shows streamed on Amazon and all the tweets. All of them combined received less traffic and attention than pornography. 28,258 users are watching pornography every second. Over $3,000 is spent on porn every second on the Internet. 35% of all Internet downloads are related to pornography. 40 million Americans regularly visit porn sites. 4.6 billion with a B. Hours are spent watching pornography videos on a single site in just one year. But what does that even mean? These are statistics. You’ve probably heard versions of them before. And while they’re wildly unsettling, it’s hard to know just what to do with. The truth is that according to the Journal of Sex Research, 64% of men and 30% of women are viewing pornography. And 100% of those people don’t want to listen to a podcast about the damage caused by porn. Let’s be honest. If you’re in the group that doesn’t view pornography, you don’t really want to hear about it either. It’s a problem that has long existed as part of the underbelly of society. It once lived in the fringes of our psyche like a shadow you’d occasionally see out of the corner of your eye. And while there’s a very real temptation to keep treating it like that as something that is someone else’s problem or not something that affects me. The reality is that it isn’t someone else’s problem, and if it doesn’t already affect you, it’s going to. This is a problem that if Christians don’t start taking it seriously, is going to continue to have massive downstream implications. There were only beginning to understand. So if your opinion of pornography is simply that it’s a moral wrong and something an Internet filter can solve. Buckle up. The reality of this problem is worse than you think. And then even worse than that. But if you clicked on this podcast, you already know we aren’t hoping to solve the easy problems. We’re staring the world’s toughest challenges straight in the face, and we’re talking to the people who are tackling them head on. Amen, indeed. Well, we’ve got Dr. Lisa Stroman in the podcast studio, clinical psychologist, author, recent author of Digital The Stress Growing Up Online, a specific focus on children and young people in this kind of issue of sexual brokenness. And then West Lyons, an accomplished venture capitalist, a very well-respected investor in this broader faith and investing movement of equal venture fund friends. Welcome on to the podcast. Before I go much further and don’t give an intro that nearly warrants how impressive you both are. Lisa, we’ll start with you and let’s get some kind of background on who you are and a little bit of your stories and then we’ll get going.

Dr. Lisa Strohman Sure. Thanks for having me. I am a psychologist, an attorney. I went to a joint program from undergrad to go into policy work and at that time was offered a position to work as an honors intern with the FBI, which was a super cool experience. And I worked in Quantico with the profiling team to classes at BSU and then was invited to become a visiting scholar based on that internship. And they sponsored my dissertation. So I ended up being with the Bureau for 6 or 7 years in total, depending on if you count the AP. And it was an incredible opportunity for me. I learned a ton and I was there when unfortunately Columbine happened. So I was shoved into this world of online safety and what kids were going to do with technology even before social media was launched. So I just remember pivoting and saying, you know, wanting to be a guardian ad litem was kind of my dream in that joint degree. But shifting over and just saying like, somebody needs to really look into and shepherd through the psychology of technology. And so I’ve spent a career doing that. So 25 years in that space.

Richard Cunningham And that’s so powerful.

Wes Lyons Wes Lyons thankful to be here? Thanks for hosting us. I get to work at Eagle Venture Fund, where we get to use venture capital to try to solve some of the world’s greatest problems. And one of the ones that we’re getting to work on under the banner of the Eagle Freedom Fund is investing in technologies that fight human trafficking. A huge chunk of that is online, a safe Internet for kids. Companies like Lisa’s Game Safe, where we’re trying to create scalable solutions to the sexual brokenness, to human trafficking. And it’s a really dark subject, but it’s also incredibly exciting to work with entrepreneurs who have scalable vision for change that bring hope.

Justin Forman Now, guys, I’m very grateful that you guys will both join us here today. It’s been a gift to spend time with you guys here recently filming different pieces of this story. And I think it’s important as we start this off to recognize this story has many different faces and has many different angles when we talk about brokenness. We can look around the world and it’s all encompassing in so many different facets, but specifically this issue. There’s exploitation, there’s trafficking, there’s sexual brokenness, there’s different angles to that. And so I think it’s important that as we start this conversation, we recognize that there’s different angles, but also to recognize one of the reasons why we do this podcast, as Richard and I team up for this, we want to highlight some of the things in the conversation that’s happening already in solving the World’s Greatest Problems initiative. And so if you’re not familiar with the website, if you’ve been paying attention to Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor, it’s a new initiative in a site that has been designed to say, how do we start having these conversations? How do we make what feels otherwise overwhelming and complex and make it accessible so that we can begin to process, to have these conversations, to feel how we might be called into this space as entrepreneurs, investors and giving whatever that might look like. So there’s a full episode where we work through some of the stories, we work through some of the conversation into that, and there’s going to be other pieces that you’re going to find there to include an incredible story that we’re filming with these guys and just what’s happening through Freedom Fund and Eagle Venture. So be sure to check that out. But I wanted to make sure that we start with that framework because a lot of people that are going to enter this conversation are coming from different places and going to think, Man, you’re only tackling a piece of the puzzle. And that’s right. There’s no way we’re going to able to round all the bases in this kind of conversation. But what I want to start with is I think oftentimes when we think about evil, we think about evil is this thing that we always slip into, and it’s this evil that maybe it’s like, man, we have a moment of weakness. There’s a moment of brokenness. And while that’s true and there’s responsibility, we all have to take for that actions. There’s a sinister intentionality that I think is on the other side of maybe the screening, the other side of this equation that we need to look at. And we said that was one of the things that struck me when we spent time together. And you just talked about the way that people are being targeted, the CEO, the way that people are trying to get people into this area of brokenness, specifically in this area of pornography from a young age. Can you speak into some of the things of what you guys have found in that journey?

Dr. Lisa Strohman Sure. You know, it’s interesting. I think that a lot of times when you look at the rates of exposure. Or to pornography or exposure into these kind of dark worlds. It’s happening sub10 at this point in our country. And so what we look at and obviously we’re not going to do causative studies in the U.S. because you can’t do experimental studies where you’re putting children into cohorts where they’re going to be have, you know, harms placed upon them. But you can do correlational studies and you can look at what’s happening. And so the average in the United States of where children are first being exposed is typically around second grade, where they’re given their first research assignment, which means that they’re mandated to go into this Internet world and research things that are tethered with ads and things like that that pop up on them innocently. But it’s almost like you can’t unwind that. And so what I’m seeing is that those children that have unfettered access or even monitored access, the parents think that they’re doing the right thing, are fundamentally different kids. And so in my practice, when I see if I go into, say, a speaking engagement in a school or I go to a town hall, I can tell you which of those children have been exposed because they’re hypersexualized even at like nine, ten and 11. You can just tell the way they dress, the way they present themselves, versus those children that don’t have that exposure, that are more innocent and natural. So we have to think through of like the technology is being a portal to these things that are industry moneymakers. And so when you’re going into a very high billion dollar industry where you’re you’re going in and getting children at such a young age, you’re getting ten plus years earlier than you can get them as active consumers legitimately. So that’s what we see and that’s what we fight against.

Justin Forman Yeah, the intentionality of that evil. In some ways it’s surprising. In some ways it’s not when you think about so much of like TV and media demographics and you talk about advertisers and they talk about the value of the younger audience, if you can get them engaged, of course, in a business, we understand there’s more of that. I hate to say it this way, but the tragic view of like a lifetime value and what you’re exploit, what you’re talking about bringing to light there is that, yes, they’re targeting people from a young age. You know, my wife and I, obviously, we have three kiddos and it was eye opening for us years ago when we would hear that the average age of exposure was above ten. I think it was first told to us like it was 12 and it was, you know, probably the picture that you would have would be the the bus ride home from school. And one of the kids has a cell phone and it’s unfiltered and it kind of goes from some of those things. But what you’re talking about under ten years old at that young age with that intentionality, it’s startling. And it’s it’s. It’s crushing. It’s almost kind of crossed a threshold where as parents, we are just it’s no longer that you can hide from it. You have to be prepared to kind of teach people how to deal with it. And, you know, one of the other things that I want to kind of bring into is they experience it in the unexpected ways. And, you know, after our time together, I cringed as a parent to think at how young of an age we had our kids in games, specifically things like Roblox and other things that you speak of that I mean, there’s just so much happening on these platforms that we don’t know about. Can you shed light on the game side of things and just what’s missing there?

Dr. Lisa Strohman Sure. I think that in gaming, what we see is parents want their kids to experience just fun. They want them to go out and they want them to connect. And that’s what we all should want. We want our kids to have those experiences. But what we’re seeing in gaming is that there’s no kind of line between adults and children in the gaming worlds. So some of these games like Roblox or Minecraft that you think about farm life like you think of, these are kid games. Well, imagine yourself if you’re a predator. And we know from David Erb, he’s the whistleblower from Metta that there’s tens of millions of predators online on a given day. And imagine if you’re looking for a child today and you’re going into a neighborhood with a van. It’s very unlikely that you’re going to see a child. But what they can do is they can go into these kids facing games and go into those very innocently with a totally innocuous avatar or pretend that they’re a child and they can have conversations and start to groom those children without that child even knowing, without the parent even knowing. And so the gaming community hasn’t figured out a strong stop on that. They don’t know what they’re doing or what they’re not doing. Right. And so they’re kind of clumsily trying to come in and fix that. And right now, when you look at kind of roadblocks as an example, they’re coming in like if we see anybody that is inappropriate online, we kick them off of our platform. Okay. Well, that’s fantastic. Now all they have to do is create a different avatar, a different sign on and come back on and do exactly the same thing. And they’re not notifying the parent. They’re not notifying anyone that the child may have been exposed to some sort of sexual deviancy or any of those things. So the child now holds that and is shameful and hurt and curious and not sure what to do with that information. And we’re not protecting our family unit by giving them the right or the ability to do that. And and that’s why I was so excited to join Game Safe. As they’re doing that, they’re giving contemporaneous reporting to the parent and allowing us to understand and see exactly what our children are being exposed to.

Justin Forman You know, one of the things I love about this podcast is that in the solving world’s greatest problems side of things, we get to deep dive on some of the statistics, the issues we tell, some of the stories in that episode. There’s incredible parts that we’re telling the story from the brokenness side of things, the therapy side of things, the statistics side of things. But one of the stories that our audience is particularly drawn to is that of Layla’s story of saying, What does it look like to take down and to bankrupt Pornhub? And we’re seeing that some of the solutions are not necessarily just saying how do we prevent how do we take away some of these things, but how do we really go at the very business model side of things? And where one of the things that you said when we spent time together is that this is sometimes more of an economic issue, more than it is anything else. Can you explain what are you guys finding out when you see the economic issue and how we can follow that?

Wes Lyons One of the key questions when you’re looking for a really scalable solution to an issue this hard is trying to figure out who has. It’s this magic pairing of the pain and ability to pay for a massively scalable solution. And in this case, you actually have to add that the parents feel the pain. And when they realize that their kid is in danger. And that’s what Game Save is primarily tapping into in the direct to consumer is parents want to protect their kids. And the ability to hand them the easy button, you can protect your kid. But then what we’re seeing here in the last even in the last ten days, as we’ve seen short sellers on Roblox actually buying big short positions and then publicizing, there’s incredibly high numbers of predatory activity happening there. Dr. Allison, just for sharing about. And that’s actually destroyed $2 billion of market cap in Roblox in the last ten days, kind of highlighting that there is very real economic consequences for not solving this problem. And it helps validate the thesis that we’ve been preaching that this is actually a business problem, if that makes sense, and that we can use business to some extent. Business or capitalism got us into the problem because Roblox has not put any brakes on this because they just wanted as many users as possible. If we’re very simple about it, and then we’ve been making the case that there is an economic model to scale really large solutions to this. So on both cases, you have pain in ability to pay. What would you add to that?

Dr. Lisa Strohman Lisa I think that that’s perfectly said in that respect because I think that we don’t ever take a second to understand the mechanism of what financial is driving the market for the gaming. Kids just want to play. Parents just want to have a safe place to let their kids go. But we don’t really think about it because they’re kind of free services. You can go on and you don’t have to pay anything initially. And so, you know, my work that I do with kids is really to educate them that they are no longer a consumer, but they in fact, are the product in a lot of these situations. And whether it’s the porn industry or whether it’s the gaming industry, they’re the product that is being sold and used to make money.

Justin Forman I want you to push into that one more before Richard. And we push into like the solution and the legal venture side of things in the work that’s being done. Lisa One of the things that was both fascinating and scary as you talked about, how the algorithm it’s this mysterious thing. It’s a mysterious piece of the conversation. We know it’s been a part of probably first introduced to us in our Google search and then our social feeds. And we kind of think of this, but it’s this mysterious thing. And yet to kids at an early age, it’s not actually so mysterious. And sometimes it gets to know them more ways than a parent can. And your analogy of kind of breaking that down of like what this algorithm is to kids at a young age, can you talk about kind of what is it, when do we first encounter it and what are we competing against as parents?

Dr. Lisa Strohman Wow. I mean, that’s a big question. You the algorithm start way into the very, very early games where the kids are doing, you know, say, ABC Mouse or some of the educational tools that parents will use. Any time that you’re putting a child in an interface that is online, you have to assume that there’s an algorithm that is leading them through that process, and it’s learning from that to better their product in the end and to better the connection and the drive for the child to return to it. What that does for a child is it’s training them. And I’ve argued this point. I’m very good friends with Dr. Drew Pinsky, who works in addiction. And he and I have talked through the fact that we’re really priming children to become addicts in other spaces by doing these very early introductions that are algorithmically keeping them hooked into these games. So, you know, it can be as simple as, like, understanding a child. I’ll take ABC Mouse because my children were on it. And the minute I saw that, it wasn’t about drawing the letter appropriately, but it was really more about getting the coin so they could buy the sticker to put on to the landscape. And you can see it happen if you’re looking for it, if parents are trained to look for it. And when that happens, it shifts. So my work in elementary school, I think, is the most vital work that I do because we have children that are open to learning and we’re open and not as exposed as they are by the time you get to middle school or high school. But in that elementary school age of very example, I would say is that many of them by sixth grade, I would say the schools that I’ve gone into in the last three years, almost 75 to 80% of those kids are truly looking at wanting to be as a career, an influencer or a YouTuber. And so for them to see those words has to have some modicum of understanding that it’s about following in. It’s about getting the likes and it’s about doing things that create that algorithm to give them more attention. And so I think that our consumerism of the children is being overlooked. You know, we’re looking at the parents or we’re looking at the schools, but the kids themselves, in my opinion, is the biggest solution that we can like dive into and support.

Richard Cunningham Well, I mean, this has been powerful to listen in on. Lisa gave us some kind of phenomenal context on her passion and motivation for this work and where it all started. Wes, you’re a venture capitalist and you are looking specifically at Eagle Venture Fund and within your Freedom Fund for solutions to human trafficking and kind of this issue of sexual brokenness. What was some of the original motivation for this investment thesis? And then after that, I want to get into some of those portfolio companies and kind of some of those redemptive stories of solution providers.

Wes Lyons Yeah, the origin story for me started on the battlefield in the Philippines, where I saw ISIS using children in combat. And that just wrecked me. I was actually already in the finance world and was mobilized as a reservist. So I was already thinking with the world of finance, when I encountered the really tough experience of spending the day hunting for kids, trying to save them before the unthinkable happens, and coming home and processing through the grief of what I was doing there. But also through the years of of processing and understanding how big this problem is. When you look at the breadth of a $345 billion industry of buying and selling people. It’s breathtaking. But also as faith driven investors meeting more and more and more entrepreneurs, you have these really exciting, scalable solutions has also grown our hope that we can be part of something that the large is doing that’s much bigger than ourselves.

Richard Cunningham And maybe a few examples of portfolio companies early on that you guys are extremely passionate about in the ways they’re attacking a problem.

Wes Lyons Well, Game Safe is a great example where they’re helping parents protect kids online. We’ve got to be part of tackling this journey where Texas is a phone that doesn’t have any exposure to the Internet or kind of any social media at all, or helping people have the best of an online phone experience. But actually none of the addictive elements to it, which is really been inspiring. And then another good example would be Darkwatch. There’s about 32,000 brothels operating in the United States run by 200 crime organizations, and they’ve mapped those cartels and actually coming to businesses and saying, Would you like to know if you’re doing business with the cartels? And in many cases, what people don’t understand is if you look at this $345 billion industry, that’s kind of like the revenue line on that. Overall, the business of human trafficking, the expense line, much of that expense line on the 345 billion is flowing through legitimate businesses. It’s flowing through rideshare companies, through hotels, through cryptocurrency exchanges, through banks. And most of the brands that we know and love passionately don’t want to do business with the cartels. And so if you can bring them that solution and there’s more than 40 hotel brands in court over literally human trafficking allegations right now. So when we see the short sellers losing $2 billion, when we see JPMorgan getting hit for $290 million, when we see these major flairs of what effectively are pain for corporations, that just brings out a treasure trove of opportunities to build scalable solutions that faith driven entrepreneurs who are hunting for ways to express the Kingdom of God are more than excited to step into.

Justin Forman So I want you to hit on that. Like if you weren’t paying attention, if you’re on a run and you missed those numbers on that scale, how many brothels, how many crime organizations?

Wes Lyons 32,000 brothels trafficking about a million people run by 200 crime organizations.

Justin Forman And $345 billion.

Wes Lyons There’s a little bit. So 345 would be a global number. And that 32,000 is a US number. So I don’t want to overly mix those.

Justin Forman But when you look at that and then you hear statistics of like there is more consumption than on Netflix and Amazon and X combined, we talking about a serious issue. What I love is the subtlety that you hit on is that the way that you can disrupt this is like where does all of those other operations pass through? And that you can attack kind of some of those things because as you’re pointing out to companies are thinking more about that because there’s a real price if they don’t pay attention to that. There’s a real price if they don’t have that, because the consumer, us as we’re buying and purchasing, we want to know that we’re purchasing for something responsible. Can you talk about that? Westlake, where some of the places where companies have taken note said, my goodness, we didn’t realize something was happening and maybe you don’t need to get specific on a company, but when you talk about an industry, what are some of those places where that whether it’s ridesharing or some other thing, where are those places where people are taking note of what’s. Happening.

Wes Lyons I think the hospitality industry as a whole has created a number of nonprofits and done a lot of training. So where we’re at in the movement, in the hospitality, about 80% of the trafficking in the US, if you just look at calls into the trafficking hotline, are happening in hotels. So they’ve done a lot of good groundwork where they’ve rallied into organizations and done training. What we’re trying to do is say, Hey, that’s amazing, all the ground that we’ve made. Now let’s apply a ton of tools like Deja Vu AI, who’s able to take an advertisement for a traffic person and actually do location work on where did that picture come from, or other tools where we can start bringing scalable solutions? Because if you imagine if you work in a hotel and you got training and are waking up and going, Wait, there is human trafficking happening, you can’t actually call the police because you felt weird about like that looked a little off. It’s just not at all appropriate to call the police to say she looked a little young or she looked a little scared, like, you can’t do that. But if you start creating the systems to say, hey, I’m just going to put this into the app, there’s something funny or I won’t say explicitly the things that you might clean up in a hotel room after 12 customers, but you can imagine what would be cleaned up. Those types of things are not things that you would call the police about. But if you start keeping track of those in a technology solution that’s also doing facial recognition. You can imagine we can decimate human trafficking domestically in the next few years.

Justin Forman So you talk about the economic equation, and I think what you talked about is like in sometimes you’re trying to raise the expense line item. Like can you talk about like the theory of change here and behind it, like, how do you defeat this? It’s not that you can probably eradicate all of it, but you can really attack it from a certain economic angle. Explain what you mean by that.

Wes Lyons Yeah, no, Thomas from Darkwatch really taught me to think about these cartels as entrepreneurs who have a revenue line on one side and an expense line on the other. And if you can drive down demand through a whole litany of making it more scary to go buy sex, any ways that you drive down that revenue line and then pushing up the expense line, there are fewer and fewer hotels where it’s safe to operate, fewer and fewer banks where it’s safe to operate. If you can get the expense line to cross the revenue line, that business breaks like we decimate trafficking. So it’s really it’s powerful to change our thinking from, hey, we have to catch everyone or like kind of we tend to think about it in the one off rape type of mechanism. That makes sense. You’ve got to catch the bad guy. But if you think of how to break a business, you just have to make expenses higher than revenue in the business breaks.

Justin Forman Yeah. Powerful thought. Before we go back, I want you to explain this idea of just why is for profit solutions so needed in this space? A lot of times our heart is a church feature and entrepreneurs, investors listening to this, we break and we think of like the survivor and we think of like, how can we help? But when you think about the other side of things and the for profit, why is for profit solutions needed so much in this equation?

Wes Lyons It’s a really good question and we had to wrestle with that too, as we started grappling with the gravity and magnitude of the issue. I would submit it’s just the sheer scale of the issue. And in our lifetime, we’ve watched a billion people come out of dollar a day, poverty primarily through capitalism. And it’s just it’s what capitalism is good at. Like, for better or for worse, it scales things. When we look at roadblocks as scaled it creative experience a little bit further than it should have. And that makes sense. For better or for worse, capitalism just takes things in. It scales them. And that same mechanism that seen a billion people come out of dollar day poverty. If we can aim those mechanisms redemptive at seeing millions of people come out of slavery, it just seems like one of the most exciting ways to grow capital on the planet.

Richard Cunningham Lisa, let’s go back to you for a moment. One of the things that’s been top of mind, this entire podcast as we’ve been just going over this, is I can’t stop thinking about social media. I mean Tik-tok, Facebook, Instagram, X, but then also the rise of artificial intelligence and deepfakes. And you’ve run into some situations there where technology is being used for brokenness. And I think you’ve got a pretty powerful story around A.I. and deepfakes as well. So what comments and thoughts do you have there?

Dr. Lisa Strohman I think that now that we have AI consumer ready, right? So there’s apps that you can go to the App Store or Google Play and you can download these apps that allow now any individual consumer to more for face, more for body like create videos. So when we talk about deepfakes, there’s all these different variations of it. But what I’m seeing happening now is that you’re starting to see kids experiment like they should, right? They’re curious and now they have what on the App Store allows a four year old to download four plus in many of these. Where you’re allowed to go in and create deepfakes on video or pictures or those kind of things. And so one of the cases that we’ve had recently was a school had just come into session. They’d been there for a couple of weeks. I get a call. The principal had been flagged as posting or having a video posted of himself that he was talking to a female student and the female student was asking for grades to be changed to all A’s. And the principal said that they would do that with a sexual favor in return. And so none of that was actually true. You know, two students had filmed this talking as a narrative had gone in, taken a picture of this principal and morphed his body into that video. But the consequence of that was now the FBI showing up at a school system. Right now, we have police officers involved for criminal action on the student. The family is now impacted because there’s suspensions and an impact there in terms of like schooling, choice of where they’re going to be and whether or not the school is going to let them back in. But more so, too, is the victimized principal that is really, truly dedicating his life to support these kids and to be in to talk to them and now trying to figure out how does he manage that? Does he privately press charges? Does he allow the school system to manage that himself? And so you’ve got this conflict of like just kind of very rape. And that’s one system or one example in a system that where I’ve already had at least two dozen calls on this issue. I think that in the App Store there was an app that I highlighted in a presentation I had recently that you have to be nine in order to notify someone, you know. So you’ve got, you know, these open source abilities for children to go in and do very, very awful things. And the teachers and the administrators are having to deal with it.

Justin Forman Yeah. And while I don’t even know what to do with some of those things of what you’re just mentioning, like we often talk about how money can be a tool for good, and business can be a tool for good, but it can be a source of brokenness. And in the same way, we’re seeing technology play itself out in that same manner where so much redemptive and great things can come from it. And yet we haven’t even like fathom the depths of intentionality of brokenness and how these same tools are being manipulated in the opposite direction. What I’d love to do is we’re kind of coming to a close here in this episode and we’re just scratching the surface of this, but what are the things that give each of you guys hope? What are the things that you’re seeing that you’re saying, Man, here’s the win. Here’s something, here’s the progress. Hey, it’s a dark world. It can sound like the sky is falling. But what are the things from each of you guys perspective that you’re seeing that gives you that hope? Well, let’s start with you.

Wes Lyons I mean, it’s so dark that you’ve got to lift your eyes to Jesus fast or else, like, no entrepreneur can give me true hope. But as we’re scanning out, we do get to spend most of our day working on solutions, and many of them are incredibly exciting. And getting to see entrepreneurs working together is also really, really powerful. Where entrepreneurs in the UK are working with entrepreneurs in the US and people working on policy start to cross, collaborate with those that are creating companies or even some of the people that are involved in the court cases trying to highlight what’s actually been this toward solutions. When we start seeing that cross collaboration happening, the body of Christ is standing up and saying, Let’s work together in a way that is deeply exciting.

Dr. Lisa Strohman You know, for me, I’ll use a personal example because I have multiple examples over the years. But recently I went to Wyoming and I was in a conference, probably 250 people there. The host of the conference, the prevention specialist, brought her daughter, who was 12 years old and was really fighting with her mom about wanting to have social media and all of the things. And I went up and gave my presentation and I talked about all of the different things that the industry does in order to take advantage of kids. And I talked about some of the things that it impacts their brains, their neurochemistry, their neurobiology, the structural aspects of their brains. And I talked about how it’s winnable when we stop and start to educate and we understand and give this power to the kids. And at the end of my speech, the woman came over and she said, My daughter would like to talk to you. And she came up to me and she had tears in her eyes and she gave me a big hug and she said, I just deleted everything on my phone. And she said, And I’d really be honored if I could be your team lead for your mentoring program in my school. And so I gifted it to her on site. And then we prayed and I told her it was going to be okay. And I know that that’s the answer, right? Scaling that and getting those kids to be the voice is light. They will do this. They will do the work because when they hear it and they know it, they will do it for us.

Justin Forman Such powerful things. You know, I think oftentimes we talk about solving the world’s greatest problems. And sometimes we say that solving the world’s greatest problems, we are oftentimes the world’s greatest problem. It’s us. It’s our sin, it’s our brokenness. And this is an issue that as parents, as ourselves in different places, we all find the church is certainly not been immune from it. This has been a big issue of our generation. And as you said, it’s an individual conversation. I think one of the things that I take away from this conversation with you guys is just a hope that this is also what a beautiful opportunities for the body of Christ to help the hurting to come along. For those that are surviving, they’re walking out of some of these brokenness or walking out of some of these painful situations and also to engage the economic side, the business side, and to say, hey, there is an economic equation that if we can disrupt, we’re never going to again eradicate sin from this world. That much we know, but we can really see some of this disruption happening for good. And so when I when I hear about why the story of Pornhub, when I hear about some of the different ventures and Evil Freedom Fund, when I hear about this economic model of what we’re going at, man, it makes you proud of the home team, makes you proud of the church. It’s like, man, we figured out how to take this upstream, how to take this to a different playing field and really kind of evaluate it in that way. And guys are just so grateful for you, grateful for the work of what you guys are doing, grateful for the way the Eagle and the freedom and just thinking about this in a different way. And as you said, bringing resources to bear that are needed for an issue of such skills. They’re so, so grateful for you guys. Thanks for joining us. Thrilled to have you guys here on the podcast. For those listening to this and want to push more into the issue in the conversation. Be sure to check out that Solving the World’s Greatest Problems website for the Faith Driven Investor is for the Faith driven entrepreneurs. That is a place where we’re going to dive into the issue. You’re going to hear some of the stories there, but you’re also going to hear specific ways that you might build and invest and give differently when you hear issues like this. And so some of the same companies that you heard West talk about some of the same ministries and that you might be able to give to, you can find a best list of those there and not sit on the sidelines, but find ways that you, your family or your business might get in the game here. So great being with you guys. Thank you for joining us.

Wes Lyons Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Strohman Thanks for having us.

Richard Cunningham Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you. With content and community, we know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven Entrepreneur or talk.

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In this episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast, hosts Richard Cunningham and John Coleman welcome special guest Ross Roggensack to break down the 2024 U.S. election results and explore their potential impact on the economy and markets. As President Trump begins his second term, the discussion delves into the implications of his policies on various sectors, from venture capital and private equity to foreign conflicts and inflation. The conversation also takes a introspective turn as the hosts reflect on the importance of humility and seeking God’s guidance in both personal and professional life. Join us for a thought-provoking discussion that combines faith, finance, and the ever-changing political landscape. 

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham: You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ, following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2: Hey everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham: Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. It is the end of November 2024. We are talking marks on the markets and given that it’s the end of November, we want to wish you and your loved ones a very happy Thanksgiving.

If you happened to catch this podcast on the other side of the Thanksgiving holiday, then wishing you a blessed start to your advent season. I’ve got John Colman in the podcast studio with me. John, we’re talking markets. We’re talking economy. Not sure if you heard there was an election earlier this month. And so we’re going to kind of look at how things are responded to that. But as overjoyed and thrilled I am is to have you in the studio. We’ve got a very special guest with us today, don’t we?

John Coleman: Yeah. We’ve got a frequent FDI contributor, maybe frequent Ross Roggensack who runs Oak City Consulting, a long time leader in the faith driven investing movement. Brilliant on markets. Just a great friend of mine, great friend of a lot of folks in the movement. And we’re so privileged to have you on today. Ross. Thanks for coming.

Ross Roggensack: Well, thanks for letting me. I’m always glad to be here.

John Coleman: Always glad we knew you would be able to handle a very laid back topic. Like US elections, you know, where there are no emotions at play. So congrats on taking on such an easy podcast with.

Richard Cunningham: The wise sage. Well, guys, great to have you with us. So let’s start there. Let’s hit on that November 5th election. So we’re coming up, we’re recording this on Friday, the 22nd. This podcast will release during the week of Thanksgiving, so it’ll be kind of roughly right around three weeks out.

Post-election, Trump won 76.1 million votes to 74.2 was Kamala Harris to Donald Trump in the popular vote. So he got that one. He won all seven key battleground states, winning the Electoral College. 312 to 226. The Senate race took out to 5347 in favor of the GOP. And while there’s still three uncalled races in the House race, it looks like Republicans have 219 right now to the Democrats to 13.

So, guys, I want to start here is what happened in this election. How did this all kind of transpire and was this the outcome you saw coming? Were you surprised and maybe John will start with you on that.

John Coleman: Yeah. So I’d maybe put the election just in a little bit of historical context, at least on the Republican side. This is probably the biggest electoral victory for a president since George H.W. Bush in 1988.

So if you’ll remember, you know, in 2000, President George W Bush, there was a disputed election for some period of time between he and Al Gore. It was incredibly close, one of the closest in history to that time in 2004, President Bush won in a bit more convincing fashion. He even had a slightly wider popular vote margin than President Trump did, although with 16 million fewer voters. But he had a smaller Electoral College margin.

And then, of course, President Trump’s first victory back in 2016 was quite narrow and he lost the popular vote, won the Electoral College. And so for Republicans, at least, this is a mandate in the way that they interpret it, because this is the biggest electoral victory that a Republican presidential candidate has had since 1988.

What was behind that was a very broad based movement in the electorate. Some of these stats may be a bit outdated. Some of our friends in places like California have not been able to calculate votes entirely yet. And so I’ll be talking from some stats I heard probably a week ago as some of the count on the West Coast was still ongoing, but effectively Trump gained ground versus 2020 in all but two states.

So 48 states moved in favor of President Trump among almost every demographic category. And of course, you can cut those in a variety of ways. Kamala Harris seemed to pick up ground among unmarried women. For example, the President Trump seemed to pick up ground amongst most other categories, including what was surprising to many people amongst minority communities in the US.

So Trump won one of the largest shares of the black male vote of any Republican in quite some time. He got a little more than 20% of the black male vote. He got nearly half of the Hispanic vote in the US, which has been not typical for Republican presidential candidates. And again, he won more margin in 48 states. They kind of moved his direction.

And so this really was an across the board pickup in electoral support for President Trump in almost every category and where he didn’t pick up ground. There were issues at play, I think, like with unmarried women, where abortion was quite a big topic, you know, where there was just momentum for Democrats in that area.

And so I think you could say this was a very wide ranging victory for President Trump. That victory had tails. You know, famously, President Trump, the last few elections, Republicans have not gained ground in the way that they thought they would. The last election, there was supposed to be a red wave. A. Quote that didn’t materialize.

And yet, in this election, President Trump now has a 53 vote majority in the Senate. As you noted, they’ll have control of the House of Representatives by a pretty decent margin. And so this did look like a mandate to bring in a new mode of administration, I think, across the board in the federal government.

And I think there were a number of things that moved that. I think, one, just the economy is not where people want it to be. I think there’s broad based dissatisfaction with inflation, for example, and just the cost of living. I think there were a series of cultural issues that were at play in the Trump campaign hit on those quite a lot with relation to a variety of hot button cultural topics.

Immigration was obviously a huge issue in this election because of the perceived mismanagement of that under the Biden administration and Kamala Harris’s participation in that. And then a series of just desires about the economy generally.

I mean, the Biden administration and later the Harris campaign had endorsed things like an unrealized capital gains tax increase, taxation, etc., that I think a lot of people reacted negatively to. And so I think there were a number of issues working in his favor. And the truth is, when a sitting president is as unpopular as President Biden is, and when an economy is as weak as it is right now under this sitting administration, there’s often a vote for change. And I think that materialized.

Richard Cunningham: Ross, what would you add to that from your vantage point?

Ross Roggensack: A couple of things. Just as a person who believes in God and the Bible. I think that we know that God’s in control and that regardless of who won, even if Kamala had won, he would still be in control. He’d still be on the throne. So everything’s going to be okay whichever side you run for.

I think I wasn’t that surprised. I remember when the assassination attempt happened and he jumped up and did the fight, fight, fight thing. I looked at my wife and said, this election’s over. You can’t beat that. And just kind of thinking about I don’t know if that’s providential. I don’t know if the hand of God was on him. I won’t try to intercede on that.

But I do think that something was happening, and I think that it was. After that you kind of saw neutral, seemingly neutral people. Elon Musk and Joe Rogan and others kind of jumped in just because they saw, I think, what was happening and what needed to happen. And so I’m just really glad that he won the popular vote. That was a good. Wearing the last time when he won the electoral but didn’t win the popular vote. And we you know, I think that’s part of the reason the markets have been so giddy is that they’re able to kind of put that tension behind it and just move on. So it’s a new day. It’s a fun day. And I’m glad.

John Coleman: One, the fact that the election, as you said, Ross, it was over that night. Right. Basically, I mean, if you stayed up late enough, you kind of knew what the presidential outcome was going to be. The House is still a bit up. And I do think that’s been a good thing for the country. And I think it’s been a good thing for markets that there hasn’t been a disputed election at all in this case. And there’s a clarity of the outcome.

And you could feel that. I mean, we’ll look back on this. I can’t wait for the books that are written about it. It’s hard to almost process all that happened in the last three months. I mean, we had a sitting president replaced on the ticket of his own party mid campaign after the first presidential debate and then a new candidate put in place with no. Kind of subsequent primary system, etc.. I mean, there were just a lot of moving pieces at play here and it is nice to have a definitive outcome. I think if nothing else, no matter where you land at it outcome, I think it’s good for the country right now and lets people kind of move forward with clarity.

Richard Cunningham: Yeah. So Trump’s putting together his team and thank you guys for those insights and maybe it might be helpful to have one of you talk about maybe just the Senate confirmation process of Cabinet picks as we get into this.

But there’s some kind of highlight names, like you’ve got this Department of Government Efficiency coming out with advisors like Ellen and Vivek Ramaswamy. Matt Gates was picked to be the attorney general, and now he has stepped aside, as it sounds like it was a distraction to the whole kind of Trump administration. And now it’s Pam Bondi out of Florida, Matt Whitaker for Naito, Tulsi Gabbard for Director of National Intelligence. Marco Rubio is Secretary of State, RFK Jr for Secretary of Health and Human Services.

So you’re starting to see a lot of these names come up and there’s massive responses kind of in both directions as you see on them. But ultimately, what is the a strategy or mandate, John, is the word you used earlier, as you see with who Trump is putting around him to be a part of this administration?

John Coleman: Yeah, you know, it’s not every pick is in place right now. And certainly there are some important picks, I think, remaining to be had. I know there have been some rumors today about the Department of Agriculture, for example, and what that might look like. I think there have been a few signals in the picks that he’s made so far.

One is it does seem like he’s picking folks who will shake up the existing system, which is what he promised during the campaign. I mean, to have Robert F Kennedy at Health and Human Services, Tulsi Gabbard at that DNI. Seth at the Department of Defense. And, you know, a variety of other picks, You can tell this is not an establishment cabinet in many ways and that they are looking to make dramatic changes.

And like you said, the DOJ’s the Department of Government Efficiency with Vivek and Ellen is explicitly intended, I think, to be a signal that they’re shaking things up. And that’s very consistent with President Trump’s campaign. Right. I mean, I think they ran on this and they said we are going to make dramatic and big changes. And I think what you’re seeing is them coming through on that campaign promise to really make dramatically different picks and to do something different.

I think in the foreign policy realm, there have actually been a couple of signals you can pick up. One is my impression is that this is a very pro-Israel cabinet so far. You know, one of the big two conflicts in the world right now is Israel and Lebanon or Iran, however you want to position that conflict. And I think Elise Stefanik at the U.N. is a big defender of Israel. I think Mike Huckabee being ambassador to Israel is a signal. I think Marco Rubio has been a strong supporter of Israel at the State Department, the Ukraine war.

You know, Trump has promised to try and drive that to conclusion. And it strikes me that even apart from his VP pick, J.D. Vance, that the signals are there, that he’ll do that. And yet, if you’re a person who’s worried about disruptions in the international order, I do think, for example, that Marco Rubio and Mike Waltz are extremely mature politicians, thoughtful people who you could expect to navigate those conflicts quite well.

And so I think there is a balance there on the international order front between folks who kind of know how these things are done and those who are intended to shake things up that hopefully portend a really thoughtful approach to the end of those conflicts, which is, you know, Trump has said he’s going to end Ukraine on day one, which I think within the first 30 to 60 days is what he’ll shoot for. I think he’ll look to end the conflict in Israel. And it seems like he’s going to try and make good on those promises.

You know, the other pick that’s outstanding right now is the Treasury Department. At the time of this recording, there’s been some back and forth on that because of Trump’s trade policies. He put Howard Lutnick, who’s a big supporter of his tariff policies in at Commerce. And then there’s still a bit of an ongoing debate around Treasury, at least the last I looked in the news right now. And I think that will be an important signal. But overall, this is a cabinet that is looking to shake things up, I think. And it seems like he’s really going to try and make good on that campaign promise. But Ross, what are you saying?

Ross Roggensack: He’s shaking things up. All right. And I think that here Treasury movies between Kid Rock and Ted Nugent. There you go. You know, I think that who he’s talking about for Treasury sounds really good. And I imagine for markets that will be important as well as whoever he puts at OMB, those are kind of the big things we’re sort of watching. And certainly the names he’s floating for Treasury probably are all good.

Richard Cunningham: Unpack that correlation a little bit, Ross. Why are those two positions in particular so key for kind of economic and market outlooks? Well.

Ross Roggensack: Treasury is just so important as it relates to especially a lot of what Trump talks about in terms of tariffs, etc.. And then just the way the Fed interacts with Treasury, it needs stability. He can’t sort of take a flier on that when he’s got to. I was joking in case anybody wasn’t sure about ten. Nugent It would be fun, though, but I think that somebody like Kevin Warsh would calm markets. Understand that there’s an adult in that seat and nothing crazy is going to happen. So I think that the market’s really at this point probably could well be assured that at least somebody is. And that’s probably maybe a reason for some of the rally the last couple of days as his name came out or the other studies mentioned. So it’s. So far, so good.

Richard Cunningham: So let’s go there, because all of this ties back to kind of underlying outcomes and markets and economy is this is the FDA I pod and Ross the point you’ve kind of made in the month response to the election.

It seems like markets generally are viewing Trump’s policies as stimulatory less regulatory oversight. Prospect of lower taxes. You even saw things or particular kind of segments of the market really jumped. If you know, if the prospect of lower interest rates continues to take place, something like the Russell 2000, which is more of your small cap universe, continues to jump.

So a couple of quick numbers is S&P 500 is up roughly 25% on the year, 2% on the month. If we’re looking at kind of November and just the response, the election, Russell, 2000 is up 18% on the year, 8% on the month. So significant jump. Nasdaq, which is, you know, maybe you’re more tech oriented kind of concentration of 29% of the year. We know a lot of that has to do with the Magnificent Seven and just the way they’ve ripped

So markets and we’re now here in public equities most particularly have seemed to be just positive in response to the election. Is that what you guys are kind of diagnosing as well?

Ross Roggensack: Yeah. I think certainly if you think about the 2016 election when he won and the market at least overnight was straight down and then straight up, and then we had a pretty wildly bullish environment until he was inaugurated. It feels similar. Some differences here and there, but certainly feels a lot like the last time he was elected.

And so I think there’s some confidence in small cap U.S. based companies and probably in private equity and M&A in less regulation and more growth, less taxes. I mean, all those things are positive and especially with the House and the Senate, I think that there’s some confidence that, you know, by the spring we’ll have a tax bill done. I mean, things are going to happen fast, as I think certainly he learned and they all learned they got to get it done now or it won’t get done.

So I think we’ll see a lot of stuff happen and the markets about tomorrow, not today. And the markets are thinking about the summer or the fall when we’re past those tax cuts and we’re maybe thinking about what is the event going to do to cut government and maybe will the war in Russia be over and maybe, you know, all the kind of things that I think are forcing the market up right now?

John Coleman: Yeah, I would say it’s not even a very partizan thing to say that the last administration, it proposed some things that were extremely negative for markets on capital gains taxation, unrealized capital gains tax there. FTC under the Biden administration has been extraordinarily restrictive. The DOJ had been aggressive, the SEC had been aggressive. There were a lot of very negative things for markets embedded in that.

I think I agree with Ross. I mean, a couple of the factors at play right now that markets love deregulation. I think we’ll see a lot of cutting of regulation. I think markets like that, there’s a decent chance the M&A markets open up under a new FTC commissioner, which would be really good for markets.

I think the chances that taxes go up dramatically, corporate taxes or personal income taxes or capital gains taxes have diminished quite a lot, you know, and that would have caused a sell off at the end of the year. I think if people thought that cap gains taxes were going up next year, people would have liquidated this year, which would have caused a sell off. And I think there’s not the urgency around that right now.

And so I think in general, there is a much more business friendly environment at play right now and probably more pro-growth environment deregulation, you know, with hopefully a healthy attitude towards M&A markets, etc..

I think the one thing that might warrant some watching is the continued inflationary pressures in the economy, some of which is obviously outside of President Trump and his administration’s control. The Fed has lowered rates, but that hasn’t impacted a lot of our fixed income markets, mortgage rates, etc., because there is still a fear about inflation, I think in markets right now.

And if rates were to come down more significantly, we’d see more of a bump in small caps and mid-caps, we’d see more economic activity. People are looking for that. If Trump can end the foreign wars that are going on right now in Ukraine with Ukraine and Russia with Israel, I think that’ll be good for markets.

And then the tariff policies, the big question mark probably, I think, you know, he’s proposed a fairly aggressive approach towards tariffs in the United States towards other countries. And we just have to see how that materializes. It’s been quite some time since that was a platform in a presidential election in the United States. And there are potentially some good things that are out there, potentially some challenging things that economically. And I think that’s one area people will potentially be watching in the first few months.

Richard Cunningham: You mentioned a lot to unpack there, John, and want to be sure we kind of go line by line and under almost like the lens of let’s play out the other side of this and kind of what are some of the negatives.

Although there’s been a lot of optimism and positive response like. IPO and M&A markets are just low and have been very slow. And the hunger and the starvation of and the need for distributions is out there. I mean, the last three years have been some of the lowest since the kind of great financial crisis in eight and No. Nine in IPO and M&A markets thinking about like an asset class like VC and 2022 to 2024 combined.

There have been less distributions in the VC asset class than there were in 2019 alone. And you know, you think of these companies like a databricks or a stripe or, you know, plaid camp. All these folks have been waiting on the sidelines for that IPO. They just continue not to kind of come to fruition. So does a Trump administration help activate these markets as or even correlation there? What do you guys see there? Because there’s just a necessity for these markets to pick up.

John Coleman: Yeah, I mean, Richard, just to emphasize one thing, you’ve said, you know, liquidity in private markets has been really challenging. I think, Ross, you’ve probably seen that venture’s probably the most extreme example of that. That’s true in private equity. It’s true in some other categories. We just have not seen distributions coming out of funds. We have not seen companies selling the IPO. Markets have been slow and the M&A markets have been slow.

And again, part of that is just the position of the current FTC commissioner, Lina Khan, who’s been very restrictive, I think, on M&A markets, particularly by larger companies. And so we haven’t had the exits that would typically allow for distributions out of venture and private equity portfolios.

And because we’ve seen a bit of a downturn, at least up until about a year ago in the economy and a rise in interest rates, people have been trying to hold positions in funds for longer to squeeze the return out of them that they could they didn’t want to sell when valuations were compressed or when they were down.

I think we’re starting to see those come back independent even of the Trump election. I think we started to see valuations rise. Venture valuations have certainly started to creep up. And I think at some point you just have to start selling these things. You have to have an opening in M&A and IPOs. You can only sit on these positions for so long.

And so I think in particular, if the FTC’s position towards M&A is a little bit looser next year and if people have a favorable view of the forward looking economy, which would push up valuations which are often predicated on a forward look at earnings in companies, which seems to be happening because of public equity markets, I think we could see much more activity in the new year, liquidating private equity and venture portfolios.

And I think it almost has to pick up at some point. Right. It’s been a pretty anemic three years for liquidity and there’s just so much pent up demand to create liquidity that it’s difficult for me to imagine that continuing through the next year. Ross And what are you seeing?

Ross Roggensack: Yeah, I mean, some of it is just pent up demand, so I don’t want to give Trump too much credit. I do think he might be in a position where it will get better. Some of it will be because of that. But, you know, in terms of negatives, you know, J.D. Vance has been a bit on Lina Khan’s side and the FTC, and maybe there’ll be a little bit of hesitancy, I’m not sure, in terms of wanting to break companies up or slow down that momentum.

But it does feel like the pent up demand and just where we are in the cycle, we should be entering a better season for Venture especially and probably for private just because of the way money flows are starting to go. So it’s probably good timing for Trump, which is a lot of what a good presidency is, is just being in the seat at the right time sometimes or not at the wrong time, you know?

Richard Cunningham: Yeah, Ross, that’s a great point. I think that’s something we need to keep in mind is that markets are exchanging hundreds of billions of dollars of hands a day, and they’re going to do that regardless of who’s in the White House.

So we definitely don’t want to give credit or take away credit to any to full an extent. While this helps kind of set the competitive landscape or the rules of play in a lot of ways, who’s in the administration? Definitely appreciate it.

Ross Roggensack: Don’t worry, we will take credit. Well, that’s so true.

Richard Cunningham: Going on, let’s get into, John, another one of the points that you unpacked and that was fed and rate cuts. You know, one of the things that I think kind of flew under the radar is on November 6th and seventh, there was a second rate cut in this kind of cutting cycle.

There was the massive one back in September. We’ve come down now to a range of 4 or 5 to 4.75. But you mentioned, John, there’s still some inflationary pressures that is taking actions now. They’ve cut rates all the way up to 75 bips and kind of this period, we’re still seeing a really high ten year treasury, though the spread on yields between risk free rates, you know, the US treasuries and what corporations are having to pay to borrow money is at a 17 year low, 26 year low on kind of credit grade bonds.

So where are you at as you look at kind of the Fed’s policy, the inflation picture that we’re looking at and maybe with the optimism that we’re seeing overall, what could possibly break the system? Is there something in play here that we haven’t hit on yet that could be a big sensitivity to all of this kind of forward looking optimism we are feeling?

John Coleman: Yeah, I’ll be brief because I think Ross is more of a fixed income expert than I am. I would say yes. My impression is there is still fear of inflation in the system. There’s a lack of certainty around what government spending is doing, for example, to that environment.

I know several people who believe, for example, that we have been in a mild recession apart from government spending, which is obviously deficit spending consistently right now, and that that’s been kind of artificially inflating our view of how the economy is performing. And we’ve certainly seen that even within some of the businesses that we advise. You know that the last year has been a bit bumpier than it might look at a surface level in markets.

And so there’s a little bit of uncertainty around that. I think people are also worried about the long term financial health of the US federal government, given the debts that we’ve accumulated in the reset of interest rates coming in the new year on those debts, which is going to take our payments, I think above $1 trillion annually in the new year.

And there’s just no signs in the underlying economy that all the areas of inflation haven’t totally come back to normalized rates. You know, I think the Fed, Ross, is still said they’re targeting 2%, although they’ve been a little soft on that number to try and achieve the soft landing. And it doesn’t seem that we are achieving that level right now.

And look, inflation is just notoriously hard to tame, right? Periods of inflation often lasts a little bit longer than you think. You can’t clearly read when they’re over all the time. And so I think markets have a tough time achieving a degree of certainty that those periods are over. And until that happens, and until people are comfortable with the direction of the economy, I think it’s going to be very difficult to get rates in a in a series of places around the economy much lower. But Ross, I’ll defer to your expertise in this area.

Ross Roggensack: Yeah, I’m not an expert. I’m just old. I’m not an expert. But I do think when the Fed cut in September by 50 and then 25 again in November, you know, we’ve seen rates much higher than even when they cut. And so it feels like there’s a tension of maybe a chance that we’re growing faster than what the Fed thinks. And so they’re moving too quickly. So the bond market is trying to tell them to stop it because they’re going to juice the economy too much to where we get inflation back.

Lately, there’s been the bond vigilante kind of threat out there that if the Fed and the government just spends any more money, that we’re just not going to buy bonds anymore. And so there’s always that threat. I’m a little surprised since the election that we haven’t seen the ten year come down in yield. I would have thought it might have just because that sort of bond vigilantes and would be shaken off a bit for a while because there would be some expectation that we would shrink government. Government is just so large. It’s twice the size it was 15 years ago.

And I know John spends way too much time in Washington, and it gets bigger and richer every time you go, I’m sure. And we know where that money comes from. It comes from us. So it’ll be interesting. I would expect the biggest risk in the market is that that if we see the ten year go to five or somewhere near there, that that would not be handled very well by the stock market, I don’t think.

So that’s sort of the the boogeyman out there is rates of rates can come down some more. That would help. But the longer they stay up here at 440 or so, they started to creep to five. That should be a warning sign to all of us that you should sit up and pay attention that maybe some bad things could happen, at least for a while.

John Coleman: I think almost certainly, Ros, you need to launch a podcast called Bond Vigilante at this point, or at least get a T-shirt.

Richard Cunningham: I’m in agreement.

John Coleman: Only appropriate.

Ross Roggensack: Now we’ll get Ed Yardeni to teach, and he’s the one right now is the one that came up.

Richard Cunningham: With some kid rock hair for Ross and a Bond vigilante t shirt would be would.

Ross Roggensack: Be the look that said that they threw.

Richard Cunningham: Up the shocker sign for all those at home. Man Let’s go back to John. You mentioned one last thing, kind of like the caveat to all of what you’re saying, and that is foreign conflict and just kind of the geopolitical scene, the two major wars.

Let’s double click into that a little bit because I think that’s another one of those hey, all of the optimism, kind of uniformity around House, Senate president kind of all in one direction. But here we have with these foreign conflicts that are pretty unpredictable and feel very fragile at the state. What thoughts do you guys have there? Russ, we’ll start with you.

Ross Roggensack: Well, not to be too much of a Republican here, but what’s happening right now in Russia with us approving the missiles that are being flown into Russia, that are missiles that are training is really dangerous. And I do think in this lame duck period, they need to calm this down or else we could have a very serious issue in Russia and in Ukraine if that doesn’t reverse itself or at least if somebody doesn’t calm the message because there’s a lot of threatening language by Putin about nuclear weapons, that.

Is really scary. And we will forget about the stock market in a hurry if a nuclear bomb gets dropped in Ukraine. No doubt. So I don’t really know what they’re trying to achieve. It’s scary and I don’t know what they’re trying to do. It’s confusing to me. And a little bit frightening, actually.

John Coleman: Yeah. You know, this is an area where everything is pretty unpredictable. I mean, I can offer some of my thoughts on where I suspect we’re headed. But the truth is with these I mean, international conflicts are very difficult to predict.

And, you know, first, as Christians, we just got to be. Any time there are wars at this scale, like what’s happening in the Middle East, what’s happening in Russia, in Ukraine, it’s just a human tragedy. Right. I mean, the number of civilians who have died in both of those conflicts, the number of civilians who are still threatened, even the military personnel who are dying and are threatened. I mean, it’s a human tragedy that that’s happening. And I think, you know, all of our prayers, regardless of where we stand on the political resolution of those, are that that human cost can end, that people will stop dying, that we can find a resolution to these. And, you know, certainly we want to be sensitive to that as we’re predicting things.

I’m actually reasonably bullish on a conclusion to those conflicts over the next year, and I’m reasonably bullish that we won’t see other conflicts developed with nations like China which might pose a threat. And I’ll voice why. The first is I do think that in both of the conflicts, Ukraine and Russia and Israel and again its neighbors, so Lebanon, Iran, you know, the Palestinian territories, the clear signal is that the new administration would like to actively in those conflicts.

I think with regards to the Israel conflict, there is a clear signal, the pro-Israeli stance among the administration, at least in the appointees we have so far. And I think the Trump administration’s strong ties with places like Saudi Arabia, you know, Saudi Arabia has already signaled that they’re willing to lower some of their standards for normalization of relations with Israel since President Trump won the election.

Are all signs that we could see that come to conclusion and Iran contained in the region a bit more, because if you had the Saudis and Israelis working together hand in hand with the American government, there are probably solutions that could be had to the ongoing conflict there. So I’m somewhat bullish that that will happen.

And then in Ukraine and Russia, I think both sides are legitimately exhausted with the conflict at the moment. Ross is right. Putin said some scary things. He revised his nuclear policy. Ukraine is now launching long range missiles into Russia. Russia recently launched a nuclear capable missile into Ukraine, even though it didn’t have a nuclear warhead attached to it. Those are super threatening signals.

My hope is that those threatening signals are jockeying in advance of what they understand will be a strong push for a negotiated settlement in the first days of the Trump administration. And the question there is exactly what they’ll agree to, the two big levers being how long won’t Ukraine have to promise not to go in to Naito? And how long will Naito have to promise not to allow Ukraine in? Is it ten years? Is it 20 years? Is it longer? And then the second is obviously where the territorial lines set. Putin would love to freeze them where they are I think on the front, Ukraine would like to push those back and only give up something like Crimea, for example. And so that will become the process for debate. I do think there will be a settlement to that. I think Putin may not acknowledge this, but he would like to see an end to that conflict. It hasn’t gone well for Russia, hasn’t gone well for Ukraine. Both sides are probably in a place now where they’re willing to talk with the right people at the table.

And then finally, I’m bullish. You know, some people still have a fear that conflict could escalate with China. And once again, I’m somewhat bullish that it won’t. I think China’s in a weaker domestic position than most outsiders recognize right now. I think their economy is a bit weaker. I think they just announced stimulus, I believe, over the course of the last week or two. They’ve got a debt problem. They’ve got a real estate problem. They’ve got a shrinking population.

And they’ve just witnessed what happened to Russia when it went into Ukraine, a conflict they thought would be easy, which has turned out not to be easy and quite embarrassing for the Russian state. It’s hard for me to imagine without some sort of massive provocation, China, for example, invading Taiwan or something of that nature at this time.

So I’m somewhat bullish. We can get those conflicts under control next year and I’m hopeful we can obviously because of the human cost. But, you know, the caveat is these things are hard to predict, right? You don’t know what these international actors are thinking. And so you can only hope for the best and develop policies you think you know, can drive those to conclusion.

Richard Cunningham: You know, we got a bond vigilante and a foreign policy writer on the podcast today. It’s good to be wrong.

John Coleman: All of this stuff will be proven wrong by the end of next week. Richard.

Richard Cunningham: It’s for the best part as you’re on the record, so we’ll be able to call you out right away and we’ll. Yeah, Thank you guys for sharing that. It’s been a thousand days plus now. And Ukraine, Russia and 400 plus Israel, Hamas. So as you’ve talked about, John, just the cost of life.

Ross Roggensack: 600,000 Ukrainians have died in this war, 600,000. Think about that number. Just amazing. That we know of.

Richard Cunningham: Well, maybe that’s a good place to just kind of stop. Put a pin in the conversation and just say, Hey, for anyone listening that maybe is disheartened by the election outcome. Here’s something like I was talking about the foreign conflict or on the other side of the coin is just overjoyed by the election outcome.

Let’s get back to that kind of like eternal mindset, biblical perspective. We asked the question at the close of every podcast of What’s the Lord been teaching you in and through His word lately? And so maybe in light of the subjects we’ve covered in just your time with the Lord, how would you process and kind of think about this? What encouragement would you guys offer? Ross, we’ll start with you. John will close with you.

Ross Roggensack: Well, my church has been walking through Joshua. And a few weeks ago we ventured out to the Battle of Jericho, which wouldn’t be encouraging to many. So I’m not going to go there. But just before the battle. Joshua is I guess he’s meditating or praying and he looks up and there’s a soldier in front of him with a strong sword.

And Joshua looks at him and says, Are you are you for us or against us? And this is the Lord now speaking to Trinity right in front of him. And the answer was no, which is not an answer. It’s basically that’s the wrong question.

And our pastor kind of asked us to think about in light of that, in the light of what we do in our work, oftentimes I want to go in a direction. I ask if the Lord is with me or against me. Am I going in the right direction? And our pastor kind of rephrased it and said, maybe we should be asking the Lord which direction should we go and not? Am I going in the right way? So maybe that’s a good thing to think about as we welcome to the next season, is us just being quiet and asking, Lord, where are you going? You know, where are you going? Can I go with you? So that’s sort of what I’ve been thinking about.

Richard Cunningham: And that’s good, Ross. We’ve been processing through God’s will and just call on my wife and I his life. Honestly, just lately just been processing the big questions I just got Where would you have us? And we keep coming back to the word will.

And what you just said remind me of first Thessalonians 516, which is rejoice, always pray, continually give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. We want to ask those questions about right and wrong. Got you on this side, that side, and you just stops and says, Rejoice, pray, give thanks. That’s my will for you. Kind of like you’re saying, God, what direction would you take me in? John Coleman, Take us home.

John Coleman: Well, first, just let me know. I’m almost shocked. We got through an entire podcast right now without having to talk about cryptocurrencies. Given that Bitcoin is almost at 100,000. I know that’s Ross’s favorite topic because it’s probably his heaviest asset allocation is is Bitcoin.

Ross Roggensack: So you’re a wealthy man right now?

Richard Cunningham: Ross That’s my fault for not bringing up crypto, but it has been rippin.

John Coleman: It has been good time in the crypto markets. You know, I have been thinking a lot over the last few days about humility. I heard the founder of Hello on a podcast recently talking about humility. They have some prayers for humility on the app. I’ve been using the Halo app actually to do daily devotionals and things like that, and they have some great prayers on humility.

And then I was actually watching a sneak peek of a TV show on Monday that I won’t reveal that forthcoming from some friends of all of us here on the podcast. And there was a scene with the Prophet Samuel where he was talking to Saul and he talks about how when Saul was small in his own eyes, God made him great. But then when Saul started to believe his own story, him to fail to attribute God, obviously he was humbled and it’s just helped to remind me constantly.

Like any time we start to feel on top of the world for anybody feeling on top of the world right now, you know, we need to remember God is in control and that we are subject to him and we should always seek humility. We should have humility. We should remember to give glory and credit to God. We shouldn’t let the valleys be too deep or the peaks be too high.

Right? We should know that we’re on a journey and that journey will have both suffering and triumphs. And we should just always be cautious in our dealings with ourselves and with others that we constantly give credit to God, that we treat others as better than ourselves, and that we as Christians are setting an example for how we treat others so that we communicate that message of humility and love that Jesus consistently gave us.

And it’s only by doing so that we can ever truly achieve great things not for ourselves, but for others and for God. Right? And that’s just really hit home for me over the course of the last week with a couple of messages I’ve seen.

It’s an area I fall short all the time, and so it’s something I have to keep in front of my eyes. You know, Ross is smiling way too big when I made that last comment about falling short on humility. But but it really is. I mean, you got to pray about it. You got to think about it. And I’m too tempted to give myself credit for stuff sometimes. And I think we all are. And, you know, as folks are feeling either great or bad right now, it’s important that we all remember to put that in context of eternity and the role that we play here. For the God that we serve to fear.

Richard Cunningham: The Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I think humility is one of those great byproducts of wisdom. Ross Robinson of City Consulting, John Coleman of Sovereign’s Capital Friends. This has been another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Wonderful to have you with us. Have a great Thanksgiving. Start your Advent season. We’ll catch you next time.

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Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ, following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 Hey everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Man we are nearing the end of 2020 for Luke Roush and really it’s been since May, since we’ve had the opportunity really in earnest to hit on the real estate markets. And we’ve got an incredible leader in the space. Nick Bonner with us here today that will introduce your momentarily, but excited to have you back in the podcast. Luke, I know it’s been a couple of weeks and excited to be talking. Real estate feels like it’s after an election. A lot of Fed activity, everything that’s been going on, we just kind of need to pay tribute to that asset class and large. But Luke, how are you doing? How is Team Roush this Thanksgiving?

Luke Roush We are doing great. We had a great Thanksgiving. Grateful for unique times that we live in. And certainly the last handful of months has been unique in the real estate realm and dynamic, which makes for a fun podcast session. So this is a great guest and a great conversation we’re going to have today.

Richard Cunningham It sure does. So coming from sunny San Diego, California, where he can probably dunk on as in terms of weather as our friend Nick Bonner. Nick has been a leader in the FDI real estate space for quite some time, thinking about just redemption inside of real estate. Longtime CBRE, Caldwell Broker, great expertise. Nick, awesome to have you on the phone with us. Man.

Nick Bonner I was a joy to serve and I’m grateful for you guys and your entire team. What you’re doing to spur the movement of faith driven investing. We’ve heard Luke say it before. Aslan is on the move. You guys are helping investors to be found faithful and they can return. So thank you guys for what you doing.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. Well, Nick, you’ve got a wild story. And I think that’s just kind of where we want to start with this podcast is your time at the Pine Tops Foundation what you’ve had your hand in over kind of your career, I think will help frame up where we’re going and kind of what happens now and present day with your work. But I just want to hand over the mic to you to kind of contextualize this episode a little bit and who you are.

Nick Bonner Awesome. Well, thank you. Yeah. So I’ll start off just like a quick background on me because I think it helps sort of frame this up. Pastor’s kid born and raised, actively involved in the church my whole life, spent about a decade on the board of a church board, 13 years on the board of a Christian foundation called the Pine Tops Foundation. In about the last 20 years in commercial real estate, in the capacities of lender, broker, property, manager of my own assets, investments and the like. And all that has sort of helped frame up a lot of my thinking around some of what we’re going to dive into today. Since I started volunteering with the foundation, we’ve deployed over 500 grants and over 40 different private placements, the majority of which were for impact investments. And I mentioned that because my roles in commercial real estate in the foundation have opened my eyes to a very broad spectrum of the deployment of capital and the impact that it can have, which has really stirred up a lot of good questions and opportunities around this space for me. Give me a what I think is a pretty unique perspective. So I’ll start real quick with Pinetop, just to give you a brief overview of that. So Private Christian Foundation, we set out about nine years ago. We sort of said, Hey, we need to come up with a theory of change because in spite of being one of the wealthiest Christian nations in history, the church in America has declined. And so we don’t have a money problem. We don’t have a critical mass problem. We have an efficacy problem. So what are we going to do to steward God’s money in a way that actually results in real change? And so the answer to that was what we call the Great Opportunity Report or the GAO report for sure. And how we came about with that was initially was intended to be a confidential internal domestic strategy for us. But we quickly realized it was something that was just much bigger than anything we could ever tackle on our own. And so what we did with that is we basically asked two questions. One, what is the state of the church look like in 2050 and how do we change that? So we built demographic models around it, and then we went back through history and said, okay, how do we change that based off historical record? Like, where have we seen big growth in the church and are there common denominators there? And the answer was, Yeah, there’s five. And so we built a chapter on each one of those five intro to kind of frame it up and then a closing chapter of just ideas, just tons of ideas to like, all right, how do we get after this? So if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re like, okay, this is an investor podcast, but a lot of people on here are faith driven. And so if you’re tired of people talking about the church and how it’s dying and how it’s, you know, not efficacious, read this report and get inspired and get to work, there’s some really exciting ideas that come out of that and so you can find it. It’s free. Great opportunity, dawg. We probably had 40, 45,000 downloads on it. We’re not marketing. And it’s just it’s kind of tough to tell like how much exposure it’s had because it’s a PDF document that just gets forwarded around. But our best guess is, you know, probably 45,000 different church leaders of major denominations and ministries that have been using that as their game plan. That’s required reading in a number of seminaries and denominations. And so, you know, we’re excited about what it’s. And I’m more excited about what other people will do with it when they get a hold of it and start to ideate on like, Wow, what’s my part in this? So one example of that is a real estate model called Open Doors. And what’s fun about this is this wasn’t even my idea. Like we hired a bunch of McKinsey consultants and KKR people. There’s 150 different people that helped us put this dock together. Their names are in the back of it. And they came up with this idea that like, hey, as we look at the overall church, like your two biggest costs, like most companies are people in real estate and arguably maybe there’s a vocational angle in there for pastors. But clearly the low hanging fruit is in the real estate because as I started digging into it, I realized the average church in an American city spends half of their finances on a building that the only fully utilize about 5% of the week.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. I’ve always thought about that.

Nick Bonner It’s a colossal waste of stewardship. I mean, it’s just like it makes me angry when I think about it. And so their idea was we’ve got to have a better model for that. What if we had for profit sustainable solutions with third parties that owned this property? What if we had sort of like a we work for churches like 20 years ago, if I would have told you that you’d be interested in sharing your music collection, your home in your car, you’d be like, You’re crazy in your office space, for that matter, right? But like, here we are. So why is the church so far behind this? Why couldn’t we do that, too? So a couple other big stats for you, as I sort of do some of an original research on this is there’s about $1 trillion of equity just buried in the dirt in church buildings, just church buildings alone, not even the rest of the real estate the church owns. And so if we deployed that capital alone, we could triple the current rate of church planting. And why that’s important because I didn’t know really anything about church planting before this report is church planning is one of the five most catalytic things that could be done that would be positively disruptive for the church. It is a common denominator behind all big revivals in American history. One other stat on that, which is roughly 12% of companies own their own properties, but roughly 84% of churches own theirs. And it’s such a big difference. It’s like, wow, why are we settling for, you know, a property tax exemption and maybe 3% appreciation when the scripture tells us that we’re given returns of 30, 60 and 100 fold? Like what if we were putting our capital into our mission in the same way that businesses put their capital into their mission? And so that was sort of the big idea behind like, okay, we’ve got to do something different about about real estate. So what does that look like?

Luke Roush Yeah, well, I’d just dovetail on that, Nick. One of the things that we talk a lot with business leaders that we partner with about is stay focused and stay clear on the business that you’re in. If you’re in the business of distributing heavy industrial equipment, focus on distributing heavy industrial equipment. Don’t focus on somehow trying to become like a real estate mogul through the the dirt that’s underneath your dealerships. And so we try to always remind business leaders of what is the business that you’re in. If you’re in the real estate business and you’re trading multifamily properties, you probably want to own the real estate. But if you’re in almost any other kind of business, you’re looking to control that costs and make it a variable expense rather than a sunk asset. So what you’re bringing up is very apropos. And, you know, it’d be curious to go back and figure out how did we get here? Maybe it’s just a spirit around kind of own in the building that started, but more importantly, I think more constructively, where do we go from here in terms of trying to return to the core mission, which is reaching people with the Gospel? So please continue.

Nick Bonner Yeah, I know with you and I’ve got a whole white paper I wrote on how we got here that you guys have been nice enough to post on FDI on, you know, basically takes you into the etymology. It’s about words, like language matters. Like we can’t even look at a building and call it the right thing. We look at buildings and we call them churches. They’re not churches, the churches, the exits, the gathering of people. So, so long as we look at buildings and say, that’s a church, then we actually even create a mindset where a pastor is like, Wait, you want me to share my church? No, this is my church. Like, I’m not sharing this building. And so we just need to think differently about this. And to your point, there’s an example I give of you guys get pitched by businesses all the time. So let me pitch you on a business idea for a moment. All right. So I’m going to start a business. It’s a predominantly retail business. We are only going to be actually visible to the community a half a day a week. We’re going to go to our main parishioners and we’re going to ask them to take their day off for 2 to 4 hours and spend that moving, picking up stuff and moving in and out the rest of the week. There’s going to be zero sign that we actually are even in existence. And as the CEO of this company, I’m going to spend a decent amount of time on things that are. Pletely outside of my scope or set of abilities. Do you want to invest in me? You’d be like, Are you.

Luke Roush Crazy? That sounds like a long cut, Nick.

Nick Bonner Right. So this is the model. This is plan A for church planting. Like we’re sending these guys out to battle the go get slaughtered. Like these poor pastors have these really crummy models that they’re given. And so you probably hear my voice. We just we need better solutions for this. And so I don’t want to camp on this for too long. But the quick idea with this whole open doors model was let’s go out and buy buildings or create a fund for profit sustainable, fund them, go buy buildings, be a church industrial office, whatever, it just have to work for the users, renovate it so that multiple churches can share the space when they need it, when they don’t need it, which we just learned is the majority of the time, at least the entirety of the building. We rent that out to other uses, like Christian preschool or coffee shop or coworking or let’s just let’s take wedding space back. I mean, an event space is a huge income generator and all of those uses can both subsidize the church’s cost to be in the space and bring in new sources of people. So that might not normally set foot inside of a church. So now you put the well inside of the building. You have these divine collisions that can occur within the church and you’re creating a sense of space of a third place that people want to be in. And you just tell the pastors, Hey, you’ve got access seven days a week, why don’t you sit in the lobby and just hand out coffee to people as they come in like they’re showing up at your front door? Just love people and basically take all the distractions away from them. So that was the model set out to do it. I love Henry Kissinger’s example of like introducing somebody to the world of sushi where he says, like, you got like the apartment life model over here. And that’s like, you know, the California roll. And then you’ve got, you know, some of these other private equity funds that are like the nigiri sushi, right? You don’t take somebody straight into Gary Sushi. You start him at the California, get an appetite and you go towards that. Well, this open doors model, like there’s so many different moving pieces to it and then there’s like all this cultural overlay and spiritual things of like people, you know, hating on the church that it’s like, that’s the nigiri sushi. And I came out of the gates swinging for that, and it was hard. It was an interesting time because I was a part of a group. It was kind of like the first FDI group ever, only unofficial. You’ll recognize the names of like Beaner Skin. And I don’t know if, you know Matt Migliore is, but couple of other guys that are part of this.

Luke Roush These are some of the urges and they threw in real estate.

Nick Bonner The O.G.. So we all get together. Dan Mack it maybe not a name you guys know, but it’s just a phenomenal human being. And a buddy of mine, John Kim, we all get together. We’re like, How do we solve for this stuff? So it’s during Covid. We’re like, Well, let’s just do like a video. Like we can’t meet with people. Just do a video meeting like, you know, every week. So it was awesome. Was first FTI Group during that time super formative for me. This is when Ben starts Callus Capital was turns in the Sovereigns real estate fund. We introduced each other like narthex, which is doing like their own real estate fund co hatch. Well then Field Redemption Collective. There’s like all these groups that are spinning in our minds and we’re learning about all these great solutions that entrepreneurs are pursuing and having the realization that, like, man, access to this capital is really hard because the only thing that investors love more than their money is their time. And so if you want to invest in one of these models, it’s going to take time to go evaluate is brand new. Like these aren’t California rules. These are somewhere between that and the Gary Sushi. And so God gave me a vision during this time that was like, Man, I love these people in their models so much. I’m going to take the operator route. But my goal is to prove this so well that we could go raise up ultimately a REIT where all of my buddies, we could all collaborate and roll up all of our individual funds into this massive REIT because then we can begin to democratize the capital in this space. Right now, the barriers of entry for anything really Christian impact is really high. If you don’t invest in this stuff, you got to have typically minimum like a quarter million bucks. Be ready to have your money locked up for 5 to 7, maybe ten years. And oftentimes there isn’t a massive amount of diversification. So if grandma wants to invest your money, you’re saying, no, grandma, don’t, don’t do it. And so what if there were a highly diversified vehicle that had a $2,000, you know, minimum and a ton of flexibility that opens up the pool so much bigger. And so I sort of got off track a little bit. I wanted to share an example of one of the thought experiments also that led me to this space. So years ago, Tom Blaisdell wrote this white paper where he explains that there’s we all think that government is supposed to solve this stuff. Or guess what? Like there’s only about 15 times the amount of government money available, then donation capital. And certainly donation capital was not enough to get the job done. There’s 100 and. 50 times the amount of investment capital available in the ecosystem. Then there is donation capital. So the thought experiment on this is. So all the two pocket investors, right? Let’s just imagine for a moment that in the philanthropy space we could create a KPI that measured kingdom impact. I don’t believe you can, but let’s just imagine for a second that you could. So if we did, let’s imagine that the philanthropy space has a 100% return on their KPI. Let’s imagine that the impact space does a really poor job and they only have a 1% return on theirs. Even in that scenario, the impact investment space would still have a 50% greater return than the philanthropy space because of its sheer size. Right. And so please don’t understand me. Like philanthropic capital is absolutely necessary. I’m just trying to cast a bigger net, bigger vision beyond that as the sole apparatus for solving the world’s issues. Right. So this is not binary thinking. This is like a continuum. God made 17,000 types of butterflies. So there’s plenty of room for expression and creativity in our work. But this thought experiment gives you a sense of like, how critically important it is to actually get into this impact investment space and start doing work there.

Richard Cunningham Right? That’s really important. I want to double down on that real quick because I think that’s just worth stopping because it actually plays off really nicely. One of the most legendary FTI videos, in my opinion, for those that have been through kind of the six week FDI cohort is when Greg learned a hand unpacks this concept and he talks about, you know, Americans are given somewhere around 400 to $500 billion to philanthropy, which what you’re talking about charity each year. And that number is actually going down, which is a bummer. You know, we the church should be joyfully, hopefully like increasing that number in that share that we’re giving. And that’s such a small percentage of GDP. And what you’re talking about here is the hundred plus trillion dollars in investable assets out there. Just a small portion of that was unlocked for other than, you know, purely profit driven purposes, which making a good return is absolutely key. You’re saying what could take place here is just an even greater multiple. Am I am I understand that correctly?

Nick Bonner Yeah. And I love Greg learned a hand. And that is a man that has put his money where his mouth is. And his two by two model was instructive and edifying for me as well, where like, you know, on the vertical axis, you’ve got the spiritual impact on the horizontal, you’ve got financial. Everybody wants to be talking to the right, but what about top on the left? Like what about concessionary investments? Like where’s our space for that? And like, where’s our ability to like seek the Holy Spirit’s guiding in that space. In fact, a lot of the times he’ll tell you this and I’ll tell you the same some of my favorite investments are talking to the left. So there’s certainly needs. One of my dreams is after we sort of prove out the right thing is actually go out and do a concessionary fund. But it’s a hard issue. And I think I need FDI to help mature the hearts of a lot of the faith driven investors before I’m willing to take a flier on that one.

Luke Roush Hey, Nick, one question that I wanted to ask pertinent to the reconstruct is any time you think about creating an open ended vehicle like that where there’s more flexibility around minimums, more flexibility around individuals who can access it is from a networth perspective. And then also having the liquidity to be able to support that more open doors access pun intended. Given your background, I’d love to have you just talk a little bit about how do you tactically start that? Like once it’s big, once it’s stable and you’ve got sufficient liquidity reserves and all that to be able to facilitate churn, it’s easier to imagine. But a lot of times I’ve seen folks get hung up on this model because they can’t figure out how do you get critical mass at the beginning? Maybe talk a little bit about how you’re facing into that or thinking about facing into that in the coming years.

Nick Bonner Yeah. So I don’t want to blow the story too much, but for the vehicle, the plan would be raise enough money that you can get an initial critical mass. And so, you know, an initial rig, A-plus offering, would allow you to do 75 million a year every year until you’ve got enough capital and operational history to go to an investment banker and say, okay, let’s go big now. And what an investment banker is willing to start with as their minimum, whether that’s, you know, 300 million or 2 billion, you know, that’s the question that would need to be answered at that point in time based on that fund and its performance. But ultimately, if you go the I.B. route to the road to Wall Street, we bring.

Richard Cunningham Luke on the pod for investment expertise, and you can just see him foaming at the mouth, chomping at the bit. Want to get into that conversation?

Luke Roush I love innovation. I love people who are looking at what others have looked at and seeing new opportunities. That’s really what innovation is. Very rarely is it inventing something new, but it’s figuring out how to apply a concept from one field in the maybe a new field and just creatively playing at the margin of, you know, intersecting circles. So I really like the construct and I think that know what you’re really pointing towards, Nick, is the democratization of faith driven investing. Even if it’s true that the majority of assets are held by very few individuals globally, the reality is that, you know, the vision, mission, dream, I think that we all share this is our collective mission is to be able to allow everyone to participate, whether in big ways or small ways, in this idea of reflecting our values and how we steward capital and to try to look for market based mechanisms that can lead to an enhanced ability to plant churches and do some of the things that you’ve outlined through that Global Opportunity report, which is incredibly insightful for me. And it sat on my desk for well over a year as I just kind of processed and reprocess the contents. So really grateful for point. Absolutely, in a way with that.

Nick Bonner Yeah, well, praise God and thank you. Yeah. One of the visions that God had given us with this is like the widow’s might. Like when we came out with this, we went to a number of the operators that are doing really good work, and the people that are running the ministry side of their work came to us, were like, I can’t invest in the work we’re doing. I don’t have a quarter million dollars. But like this vision of like being able to go to Wall Street and have a lower minimum, man, like I’m in. So there’s a lot of people that want to be a part of this. And that’s what’s driving me more than anything is all my friends and family that are like, Hey, I’d love to be a part of this, but I can’t do it just yet. And even like even the investors that have a lot of the money, like so my best friend’s house, three years old, he had a liquidity event recently and he came to me. He’s like, Nick, you know, I want to do a faith driven investing real estate thing. What do I do where I go? And I’m like, Yeah, here’s like six different funds have invested into you. And he’s like, Dude, I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t have the time to dig through this. So is there an easy button? Like, is there like way I can invest in all of these? And I was like, Well, yeah, we could figure that out. Actually introducing the business, give us like solvency. Got a real estate fund, do that. So yes, trying to solve for that is the fun part. So let me take you back. Yeah.

Richard Cunningham I was about to say, bless my linear brain that likes to hear the conclusion of the story that gets us to the present day and go quickly through the kind of like the open doors to now.

Nick Bonner Yeah. So open doors start that, by the way. Like I still got a full time job at CBRE and joked during the time of working two and a half full time jobs and working full time at C, which is not like a residential where you can work like 20 hours a week, like you got to be full time. And it’s a very competitive industry. Plus volunteer and Pinetop plus starting this whole Open Doors syndicate, I thought it would take 18 months. And right before Covid, I was well on my way on pace for that. And then Covid hit and bunch of other things hit. And, you know, it ended up taking more like six years. And so during that time, I mean, this is a podcast for another day. But like I just had to say it was rough. I ended up having a full on panic attack. And I’m not a person that is panicky, my wife. Laughed when our therapist diagnosed me with anxiety. She was like, You don’t have anxiety, but there’s something to like going after this stuff that has real repercussions. And so I actually wrote a whole white paper on like discerning that call in, like, how do we know if like, we followed God when we’re in the middle of like, the desert? Did I do wrong or this is actually where you brought me God. And so during this time I bump into Dallas Jenkins and he’s like, Nick, you have to read me and myself and Bob by Saul Fisher The story of the collapse of Vegetables and shout out to the Holy Post. By the way, I’m Phil Fisher. So I read the story and he’s got we have time to go into it in detail. But like he talks about the Schumann Night Woman, which is not a story that I remember in the Bible, but quick upshot on this. So there’s this woman who’s barren. She’s serving a Leisha. He says, Hey, God’s going to give you a child. God gives her a child. A year later, she raises him up. When he’s in his teens, the child basically ends up dying in her arms. So she goes to her husband. Her husband asked her how she is, and she says this astounding thing. She says, all is well, which is not something you would normally say when your first and only child dies. She goes a like she asked the same questions. Use this all as well. And it’s clear that she’s messed up about this, by the way, like she’s like grieving over this. But the question that he poses in this is like, what kind of a God gives somebody a dream and then takes it away. Right. And then the second question is, what kind of a person answers all is well when their only child dies in their arms in the answer is like God had clearly taken her through a journey personally where the moral of the story that she learned was like, sometimes God gives us a desire or a dream only to take it away only because only then, after taking it away, can we really know if we love him more than the desire or the dream. And should he ever give that dream or desire back to us, only then would we ever actually be able to experience it to its fullest. So this is a super powerful lesson for me through this process because I think I sort of made this like seeing how important this vision was. I think I, in spite of my best efforts, I sort of made it a little bit of an idol. And so I’ll pause for a quick diagnostic for those listening, if you want to figure out if you’ve got an idol of your own, let me ask you two quick questions. The first question is fill in this blank. For me, living is for me, living is for me. And be like, I don’t know, going on great surf trips or, you know, hanging out with my family or having success in business. Right.

Richard Cunningham Spoken like a guy who lives in San Diego.

Nick Bonner Yeah. All good things, right? And then answer that next one for me, dying is for me, dying is, man, if I lost this or if that happened. Right. So if your answer to those two questions is anything other than Jesus, then you’re set up for failure. Because the problem is, for me, living is like all of those things can be taken away in an instant. The only possible answer that can fit in both blanks and protect you from suffering is if the answer is Jesus. So I’ll fast forward through the story and I’ve got the money raised. I’ve got 30 plus churches that are like, If you build, it will come. We’re excited. I got multiple redundancy and all the tenants. I’ve pulled the trigger on the Lego. I spent all the money, I’ve got everything ready. I’ve got a couple of buildings lined up and God presses pause in a big way. And so I’ve got to tell you, this only got story for a moment because I think people will be blessed by it. So five years prior, I’d been shopping for a new church after 17 years of the same church and during the storm camping out in the book of Colossians, I’m reading cautions every day for the entire summer. The Lord is speaking to me through caution so loudly that I actually read chapter one every day for 30 days straight. Never done this before or since then. Every time I read it, he speaks to me. So I go to 12 different churches, and if you know me, I’m a nerd. I got my spreadsheet. I’m evaluating these churches on like 15 different points and three pastors preach on Colossians chapter one. And I’m like, What are the chances? And the Holy Spirit, you know, meets me in a way as a sort of Baptist Presbyterian background that I am not used to being about. I’m like weeping in these churches, super embarrassing, but I don’t really care at the same time. And at the end of it, I’m like, God, wow, this is amazing experience. Like, what are you doing here? Like, I can’t attend three church. I got to pick one and he doesn’t give me that answer, so I have to pick one. So I pick one church back into the story. Fast forward five years. So church one, I’m attending church. Two of those three joins our church in August of last year and says, Hey, like we just love you guys are doing are going to join your church now two on the same roof. And then in September, a third church comes to us and says, Hey, we’re closing down at the end of this year. We want to sell our building to you. But this isn’t a market sale. We’re not stupid. This is a. Time passed. We see a legacy here and we want to basically hand this thing over to you. You’ve got to pay off our debt and our severance. But, you know, it’s a $50 million building. They want to sell us for 5 million bucks. And long story short, with this process, the church can’t raise the money because they’re like, look, their only catches. You got 30 days to raise 5 million bucks. So I call the people I know. I’m like, let’s get you a $45 million write off. You guys could buy this thing for 5 million. You could gift it to my church. Nobody wants to do it. Shocker to me. I can’t believe it.

Richard Cunningham I know where this is going. Back to the open doors thing. Yeah. Wow. I’m excited to hear how this ends.

Nick Bonner So bottom line is, we’re closing in and I’m like, Yeah, we’re not going to buy this thing. What are we going to do? And I feel like praying about it. I’m like, got to understand what’s going on. And guys like, Hey, who did I give that vision to? You have three churches under the same roof and I’m like, Me is like, Well, what were those three churches? And so I go back through my notes, You want to get to the third church was the preach on Colossians. There’s the church that wants to sell this building to us. And I’m like, Whoa, goosebumps, right? Like, okay. And then God’s like, Hey, how much money does the church need? 5 million bucks. And how much money do you raise for the open doors model? 5 million bucks. Like with God, like.

Richard Cunningham Isaac on the altar necklace.

Nick Bonner This is the Isaac on the altar moment, man. And so rule number one is churches don’t own real estate with open doors like they can’t like you need a third party. And so, again, just to abbreviate all this, I make the decision. I go to my lead capital provider. I’m like, Hey, here’s the idea. I don’t really know if you want to do this, but here’s the opportunity. We could do it alone. I could just back out. We could just sort of put open doors on pause and they’re like, This is great, let’s do it. And I’m like, okay, I was open. You’d say, No, but here we go. So bottom line is I put open doors on hold, give up my capital, then help them close escrow on the building. And that may end up being the first open doors building. And it may not. It’s out of my control. And so for the second time in six years, I give up my career and then found myself on the other side of it saying like, okay, God, like, what do we do now? And the following from that was really a dark night of the soul. My wife gave me John Comer’s book Lit The Dark Night of the Soul, which was cathartic during that time. So just like just felt like God had just sort of hugged me out to dry. And so this was a time of of a lot of soul searching. But now I just have to say that God is just so good and so patient. And I was rebellious in my heart during that time. But he just showed me a tremendous amount of grace through it. And I think the upshot during this time was what I came down to, in spite of all my anger about sort of like giving up my career twice now, this is like, you know, God, whatever you want to do with me, do with me. Where else can I go? It’s like Peter, like only you have the words of life. So if your endgame is for me to end up, you know, poor and naked and alone, then, like, I guess, like, okay, there’s nowhere else I can turn to. So that was a really, I guess, maturing time in my face. And I think I’ll speak to this maybe a little bit later. But there are few biblical characters that didn’t have a desert journey that God took them through or they just had to like abandon basically all things and make the decision that it’s really only God. It’s not the dream, it’s not the desire. It’s got to be only God. So you fast forward to today, which is shortly after all that happened. I got a phone call into Andrew Arroyo from Andrew Arroyo. Real Estate is a buddy of mine who calls me and says, Hey, Nick, I think there’s a generational wealth making opportunity in commercial real estate. We’ve got 40% of all commercial, say, debt roll. In the next three years. There’s going to be a lot of people that need to sell fundamentally good buildings for discounts just to, you know, meet redemption cues and to pay off their lenders. And so I said, yeah, it sounds interesting, man, but I’ve just seen too much. And for me, it’s in Pachter bust. Like, I can’t do anything that doesn’t have a legitimate impact. It’s like me too, like I’m in the same boat. He’s like, Nick. He’s like, for the last X amount of years you’ve been sharing all these Christian models, all these redemptive impact models of people for free. What if we did that? You actually got paid to do it? I was like, Whoa, that would be a dream come true. And so fast forward on this. Again, we’re in the process right now of starting, as I understand it, the world’s first Christian impact investment rate. And it’s one of those things where it’s like Mark since got this quote where there decades when nothing happens in days or decades happen. And this is one of those for me where I feel like by giving up Isaac on the altar with this whole open doors thing, like God allowed me to, instead of hitting my 20 year vision of like, Hey, we’ll go to open doors. And 20 years later I have a right. It was like, Now let’s just do the rewrite. Now you’ve been faithful, go. And so I’m super excited by this idea because we just yesterday, I mean, this all happened in real time. So what’s today’s Thursday? So Tuesday I sent my farewell notice to everybody at KB yesterday. The SEC got back to us and said, We’re officially qualifying you guys to be a read on. And is real. Like, it’s getting real really fast. I haven’t even updated my LinkedIn profile. So bottom line is we’re going to go start this REIT that can do all those things that we were talking about where we’re going to go find all these other operators and invest into them and lift up their arms and provide an easier route to capital on both sides of the equation. Want to grow both the supply and the demand side of the equation. So if you got a question of the REIT, we’ve talked about that more later. But I just want to say that the lesson here for me is it’s actually the second time in my career that God has taught me this lesson. I hope there’s not a third, but it’s a Joseph story. Like God doesn’t move in a linear fashion all the time. A lot of times we think he should go from point A to B to C to D, and God can go to A to F, over to Q and straight to Z and right back to again if he wants to. But like if you look at the stories in the Bible of people like Joseph, it’s like, man, we’re not in control of this stuff. God is in control of this stuff. And if we can just hang on to him, the places he’ll take us to, all the places will go.

Luke Roush I think that’s a good word. And you know what I would say, Nick? Is that what you’re talking through in terms of the journey that you’ve been on, is what it looks like to be actively faithful and guard against being willful. There’s certain things that God has put in our control and is allowed to be in our control and those other things that are kind of outside of our control. It’s a trying to discern, as you did in your path through the desert, what is the voice of God? What is maybe the voice of the enemy or your own voice? Kind of speaking of the voice of the world, speaking in the year, trying to discern which voice and listening for the accent that God has and how he speaks to us, which oftentimes is corroborated by Scripture and or godly counsel around us. That is what discernment looks like in the process of being faithful, but being actively faithful and moving forward with full recognition that God controls the outcomes and teaches us things along the way. And in Patterson’s quote, around decades happen in days and other times it’s, you know, days happen over decades. I think that’s a really important reminder around controlling what we can control and trusting God with some level of the timing and the outcome. So this has been super instructive and informative, I think, for Richard and I sitting here and it’s great to hear your story. I love the process that you’re going through to be able to democratize real estate and what it looks like for more people to get in the game, which in the words of Henry and Justin. So, Richard, over to you.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I mean, if you’d allow me, honestly, the liberty just to try to summarize like Nick, because it’s powerful and it’s a really cool, as you said, only God story, kind of all of it, but it’s this catalytic vision. You receive it pine tops for how you can engage as kind of this church issue that we have the systemic church issue. And I love that. It’s so overlaps with your passion and your background and, you know, just professionally what you’re capable of, which is in the real estate space. And so then you get this vision for open doors, which is for church real estate spaces, to kind of step in as an antidote and a healer. There Open Doors is at the finish line, docs are created and signed, capital is raised, and you’re there on the goal line. And then all of a sudden the Lord comes down the pipeline with this $50 million church that is an opportunity to be acquired for 5 million. You sacrifice the capital, the Isaac on the altar moment for Open doors. This project you are so excited about for the acquisition of this church leads to what sounds like a pretty dark season or just a lot of contemplation of like, God, how would you use me? And then all of a sudden this Rick comes to fruition in a way which was the ultimate end game. You started open doors with in a way that you could never have kind of fathomed. And so I just I love that it’s God not moving in a linear fashion and so deeply edifying. And there’s 30 podcasts inside of just this one podcast that we could pull on each individual strand. But maybe Nick closes down with this of just like generally you’ve given so many just kind of incredible tidbits of wisdom in here, like what it was like kind of that last piece of advice you might leave the audience with as it relates to real estate or just engaging with the space, what have you. And we’ll close there.

Nick Bonner Yeah. So and there’s so much I want to say on this front. So I’d like to speak to two different audiences here in your podcast. So first, to those who haven’t yet done any impact investments, I’d say, you know, there’s this great Leonardo Da Vinci Code who says, I’ve been impressed by the urgency of doing knowing is not enough. We must apply. Being willing is not enough. We must do right. So if you haven’t done impact investment like start now, it doesn’t matter how much money you have, like you start now. Don’t wait until your victory lap. Our time is now. How are you stewarding the other 90% of the capital that God’s entrusted with you? And if you don’t have time to go investigate, 400 different operators go investigate and five funds make them do the due diligence and I’ll give you a freebie. Like there’s a bunch of people that are on this podcast. Chuck Weldon was just on this podcast. He’s fantastic. Invest in him. We’re going to. Launch capital. Their outstanding guys are great. Yeah, we’re talking about really solid people. And so those who are active, I’d encourage them to consider the Greg learn a hand to buy to. I mean, try some concessionary investments and see what God does and go pray about that. There’s this Viktor Frankl quote that says Success like happiness cannot be pursued. It must ensue, and it only does so at the unintended side effect of one’s personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself or as a byproduct of one’s surrender to a person other than oneself. And so my final thought on this is if your identity isn’t being an investor, you will likely do a poor job of furthering that gospel through investment. Dump your identity as an investor or receive your inheritance as a child of God. Bring him your loaves and fish and watch him walk away.

Richard Cunningham Come on. Nick Bonner. Thank you. How awesome to hear your story, man. Thank you for what you’re doing for this broader, redemptive investing space, specifically within the asset class of real estate. I’m excited to follow your journey. Friends in the FDI ecosystem, I would say keep your eyes open on LinkedIn, social media, everywhere. You’re going to see Nick around and this is going to be something that we’re going to follow along closely. So friends, Happy Advent, we’ll catch you for one last FTI podcast after this one to close out 2024. But otherwise, we’ll catch you next time. Thanks so much.

Speaker 2 We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see your listeners come in for more than 100 countries. Faith Driven Investor It can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a groups study with other investors looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter at Faith driven investing.org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive Producer Justin Foreman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Drags Audio and Editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.

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In this special edition of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast, we highlight the story of Sam Rhee

Sam was formerly a CEO and co CIO, global head of Asia at Morgan Stanley before starting the fintech platform, Endowus. 

Today, Endowus primarily serves Asian markets with $5 billion in assets under management and has recently raised 95 million dollars in outside capital.

In this unique narrative-style podcast, we hear how the biblical story of Abraham and Lot inspired Sam Rhee to step aside from the role of his dreams for the sake of a colleague and how God used that sacrifice to pave a path for victory.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham: You’re listening to Fate Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Rusty Rueff: Hey everyone! All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham: Welcome to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Grateful to have you with us from wherever and whenever you are tuning in to this episode. I’m Richard Cunningham and super excited about today’s episode is we’re doing something a little bit different. You’re actually going to get to hear from our man behind the scenes, our executive producer Joey Honescko, today as he walks you through the powerful narrative story of a wonderful, faith driven investor and faith driven entrepreneur out of Singapore. Sam Rhee, now Sam, was formerly a CEO and co-CEO, global head of Asia at Morgan Stanley. So this is a behemoth asset manager and a gentleman who ran a significant portion of such a large operation and recently has gone on to found Endowus, Endowus is a wealth tech platform serving Asian markets. That is all the way up to $5 billion in assets under management. And recently also as a fintech platform, has gone on to raise $95 million in outside capital and an environment that has been unbelievably difficult to raise outside capital. And as many entrepreneurs can likely attest to. And what you’re going to hear today is this powerful story of Sam and his kind of testimony in the I sacrifice, we win type mentality that he truly adopted, that our friends at Praxis embrace and talk about. So thrilled that you’re going to get to tune in for this. It is a moving story and let’s dive in.

Sam Rhee: I think that act of giving up what is your right is actually what defines us as Christians.

Joseph Honescko: That’s Sam, and he’s the co-founder, chairman and chief investment officer at Endowus, a tech enabled tool that helps democratize money management for everyone. But before we get into the founding of that company, I want to give us a bit of context. We’re going to do a little bit of time traveling, go through Sam’s history to see what led him to this company. In the Gospel of John. Jesus tells his disciples that they are in the world, but not of it. And all of God’s people can relate to this feeling of being stuck between two worlds. But Sam’s experience has given him a unique perspective on this reality.

Sam Rhee: I’ve been what’s called a third culture kid, a multicultural background, and I fit in really well, but I also don’t always belong anywhere.

Joseph Honescko: You’ll see throughout this episode that the spiritual metaphor isn’t lost on Sam, and in fact, his life displays this tension quite well.

Sam Rhee: As a Christian, that really kind of, you know, in a nutshell expresses who we are as in this is my identity and this is not my true home. And, you know, my home is in another place, and I’m here temporarily for a reason. And I’m placed here by God for a reason.

Joseph Honescko: Sam’s desire to discover the reason that God put him on earth is something he’s going to wrestle with for most of his life. And it started even as a young kid, because he grew up in the home of a pastor. But he’s quick to point out that he’s not your stereotypical pastor’s kid.

Sam Rhee: Yeah, so when I was young, everybody assumes that a pastor’s kid should be a pastor or a missionary. But because my father was quite different in the way he lived out his life, when I was a teenager, I approached my dad and I seriously was thinking whether I should go into full time ministry. What does it mean to have that calling to go into full time ministry? And he wisely at the time said that he loves the full time ministry. But what the world needs is not more pastors and not another pastor who’s going to build another church, but he wants us as his children to also do what his ministry is, which is raising leaders, lay leaders. So I think from that young age, he had instilled that in me. He kind of like really put that desire in my heart that I should be a good lay leader and not be going into full time ministry. But it’s a struggle. I always like, you know, think maybe I should go back into full time ministry, but God always brought me back into the workplace and the marketplace. And so it’s been a constant thing that God wanted me to be here.

Joseph Honescko: Did you catch that theme again? The tension between identities. A person living between two worlds. Ministry in the marketplace. His dad did help him see how the marketplace could be a place for ministry. But still it didn’t quite click at that young age. It was one of those classic head versus heart situations where he had heard the truth, but still had a hard time actually believing it and living it out. When you start asking around, you find that most faith driven entrepreneurs go through the same thing. We all at various times might know something to be true, but we find ourselves struggling to live in that reality. That was true for Sam, especially as he started out in his career in finance.

Sam Rhee: Well, going into finance was a fluke. I was a social science guy more interested in like international relationships and, you know, economics and stuff like that. So I wasn’t really looking to go into finance, but a family friend recommended me an internship in Korea and I thought, hey, summer break. You know, I can go there earn some pocket money, practice my Korean and brush it up and I’ll come back. But at the end of the internship, they said, why don’t you stay? And that was it. That was my career in finance. That’s how it began.

Joseph Honescko: As Sam’s career progressed, he found himself at the investment bank Morgan Stanley with a desire to move up in the world. And through that, he started to see his faith become less and less of a priority at work.

Sam Rhee: There was a part of me when I was younger where I think I was kind of enamored with the worldly things like, you know, chasing after the same things bigger bonus and promotions and the work faith integration wasn’t really happening.

Joseph Honescko: Sam again found himself stuck between two worlds the world of finance and the world of faith. And to be clear, it wasn’t like he was out there rejecting God. It was just faith became a lower priority.

Sam Rhee: You know, yes, I was doing the things in the work place, meaning I would lay my hands on the chest of my colleagues and pray for them. I’d like, you know, do Bible study in the workplace, but it wasn’t like fully integrated into the day to day investment space, I think, and you get caught up by a lot of this, you know, game that people play.

Joseph Honescko: Anyone who works in professional settings has experienced the same thing Sam has at different levels. We start to be taught that these are the certain things you’re supposed to go after, and whatever it is, we’re shaped by these stories that say, this is what your desire ought to be. So I don’t think it will shock anyone listening to hear that. For Sam, the thing he was told to desire was his own success above anyone else’s. To look out for himself and to do what it took to get to the top.

Steve Son: Finance has been one of those industries where it’s always had a bit of a challenge.

Joseph Honescko: That’s Steve Son, a former colleague of Sam’s from back in the day at Morgan Stanley.

Steve Son: How do you think would you.

Steve Son: Lead personally into your day to day work? Because you have whether you are investing as are businesses or trading, whatever else it is? You know, part of my goal is just to make money.

Joseph Honescko: Perhaps the biggest issue for anyone who’s trying to integrate their faith into the work is that our work can easily become who we are. For Sam, a lot of his identity became tied to a specific role in Morgan Stanley. Everything he worked towards revolved around getting a specific title.

Sam Rhee: One of the most important things that you need to get if you’re in an investment bank or a large company like Morgan Stanley is, you need to get to managing director, the MD. That’s the partner level. That’s the ultimate goal in life, basically.

Joseph Honescko: Act two finding a better identity. The first question in the Westminster Shorter Catechism, recited by Christians for generations, is what is the chief end of man? The Catechism proposes the answer to love God and enjoy him forever. And I think it’s fair to say that most Christians would generally agree with this statement. But how often do we really live this out? It’s so easy to get caught up in the ways of the world. We, like Sam in the story, might even find ourselves thinking a certain position, or an acquisition or a funding amount, or whatever it is is the ultimate goal in life. Those kinds of things can quickly become our chief ends. And for Sam, he actually had a chance to arrive at his chief end. All that effort he had put in. All the drive was about to pay off until something unexpected happened.

Sam Rhee: So I was out for promotion together with another colleague. So we were going to step up as the Co-heads of Asia. And you know, the promotion was almost guaranteed in our minds.

Joseph Honescko: You can put yourself in their shoes and feel the weight of this meeting. They’re going into this conversation they’ve been waiting their whole careers for. There’s excitement, probably a healthy sense of accomplishment. And there’s also that sense of contained professionalism. Like you don’t want to show all your eagerness too much. So they all sit down together and hear the boss say something neither of them ever saw coming.

Sam Rhee: Sat us down and said, hey, I only have space for one for most of this year.

Joseph Honescko: Even now, you can practically feel the energy drained from the room. Like when it’s so silent, you can hear your own heartbeat. And then something even more unpredictable happened.

Sam Rhee: What was really weird was that he said he can’t decide. So why don’t you guys talk it over and you guys decide?

Joseph Honescko: Keep in mind, too, that these aren’t longtime rivals in the company. They were friends and colleagues and partners in many ways.

Sam Rhee: We built the career of, you know, 15, 20 years to get to this level. And we’re the same age we are, you know, managing good books. We’re going to be the co-head of Asia. So we wanted to build this team together. And one of us becoming promoted first as an MD was going to potentially wreck this kind of relationship of trust.

Joseph Honescko: The decision they had to make didn’t just affect their position in the company. It affected their relationship too. So you can imagine the weight they felt when they were given a bit of time to think it over. Sam was entered back into that situation where he was stuck between two worlds. On one hand, he didn’t want to overstep his colleague, but at the same time, he had worked hard his whole life for this moment. He did deserve the promotion, so it would have been easy to do what most people would do in this situation and come up with the big plan on why he deserved it and why he should go first. It wouldn’t be personal, right? Just business. But that’s what makes Sam’s eventual choice so remarkable.

Sam Rhee: I went home and I spoke to my wife. We decided to pray together and when we prayed, God kind of impressed upon us that this was a Genesis 13 moment.

Joseph Honescko: All right, so now let’s take our time machine and go even further back in history. Because if it’s been a bit since you’ve read Genesis 13, that’s okay. For a lot of folks, it’s one of those small, strange stories that we may not fully grasp right away, but it’s also essentially the story we’re told at the beginning of this episode. Abraham and Lot have just left Egypt, where Abraham was given an extraordinary amount of wealth, and now he’s settling into the land that God has given him. He and Lot decide to split up the land, and when they look out, half of it is all green and beautiful. It’s [….], it’s perfect for agriculture and development. And the other side is, we’ll just say, not as promising. So even though Abraham has every right to make the first choice, he instead lets Lot choose. As you might imagine, Lot chooses the good land. It’s nothing personal, right? Just business. So Abraham made the choice to lay down the best option for the sake of someone else. He sacrificed so another person might win. And at this point, you might start to see where this is connected to Sam’s story.

Sam Rhee: That Abraham and Lot story really resonated with us, and God convicted us on that verse. And so next day I went back to the office. I sat down with my colleague and I told him that, hey, these are the reasons, you know, we have to build this company together. We have to trust each other. And if you really want it, I’m willing to let you go first.

Joseph Honescko: Everything Sam ever wanted in his career. He was willing to give up. Now what prompts someone to do something like this? Because if you’re sharing the story and you feel like it’s a little crazy or even over the top, that would make sense. It is a bit of a crazy thing to do, but Sam saw that the Christian faith called him not to a life of taking, but a life of giving.

Sam Rhee: The language of the world is to take, is to take what’s rightfully mine and take more, whereas Christ is. And Christians are about giving and giving more. And if you go back to like Philippians and Jesus and how he was in the form of God, but did not think equality with God, something that he should be grasping that defines what Jesus did, he came to this world as human being even though he was. God gave up his right, gave up everything, his claim, and he lived a life to set an example to us all. And that life of giving is what Christ wanted us to live. As Christians.

Joseph Honescko: You’re probably catching on that Sam sacrifice wasn’t just financial or professional, it was also a sacrifice of his own identity. Dave Gibbons, who’s an advisor and author and activist, has known Sam for years, and this is what he says about the identity shift that he saw happen when Sam turned down this promotion.

Dave Gibbons: Well in Asia. A lot of times you may not be referred to by your name. You’re referred to by your title. And so your titles, everything. You know, it shows where you are in the pecking order. And so a person who’s offered like a top position, of course you take it, you may offer some type of humble resignation like, oh, I really don’t want it. But yeah, you’d go after it. So for someone like Sam to turn it down, I know how hard it must have been for him.

Sam Rhee: I was still struggling. You know, I say God convicted me and gave us a verse. But that, like, giving that up was probably the most painful thing that I’ve done.

Joseph Honescko: Sam didn’t have some super power or some extra special line to God. He just had the same tools that are available to all of us. Prayer, Scripture, community, the spiritual disciplines that allow us to seek the wisdom of God Almighty. And it might be tempting to hear Sam’s story, or even the story of Abraham and Lot and say, yep, that’s what it’s like to follow God. Give up everything you’ve ever wanted, and then you just wait around. But Christians aren’t just called to die to ourselves, even though that is a big part of our faith. We’re also promised resurrection life. We do see victory. Sometimes it just looks different than we might expect. Here’s how Dave describes it.

Dave Gibbons: I think a lot of times the moves of God in today’s world is really countercultural, like with Sam. It’s like in an upside down way of thinking. But if you look at really who Jesus is, that’s what he was about. He said he came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. He chose not to take the royal, pathway to be the king of the land, but he chose to be the suffering servant who would choose that path. I think many times that’s the path of following Jesus is a path of death, you know, that has the promise of resurrection.

Joseph Honescko: We can see that resurrection promise in the chapters that follow Genesis 13. God honors Abraham’s choice, while Lot drifts towards the ways of the world and further away from God. But Abraham’s faithfulness ends up being a beacon of hope for Lot. His radical, upside down way of living made a difference to the person he sacrificed for. And that same thing happened with Sam.

Sam Rhee: I went back to his office and told him that, hey, I told the boss. You go first. You deserve it. So congratulations. And I thought he was going to be, like, really happy. But he was really serious. And I said, are you okay? What’s wrong? And he said, you know, throughout my life, I thought that I could do anything that others can do because, you know, he’s tall, is athletic, he’s intelligent. You probably could do most things that other people can do. And so he said that and he was like, but today I realized that there’s something that you’re doing that I just cannot get myself to do. And I was wondering why. And I realized that it was because you have your God and I don’t.

Joseph Honescko: Sam’s decision to sacrifice became a testimony to a nonbeliever, but it also affected his own way of looking at work for the rest of his career. From that moment on, everything was different.

Sam Rhee: It just hit me right there and then that, you know, I’d been a pastor’s kid. A good kid had lived what most people would say, a good Christian life. And I always talked about glorifying God, doing things for his glory or for his kingdom, or pretty much everything that I done was for my own glory. And when I finally gave up, something gave up my right. Then God was glorified. I mean, this title is not important to me anymore because I had done something finally for God and that encouraged me a lot.

Joseph Honescko: Act three. Building out of sacrifice. So here we’ve got a guy who grows up between worlds. His multinational upbringing. He’s never sure where he fits in. He goes into investment banking and begins to find his identity in his successes, while trying to balance that with his life of faith. But then he finally realizes that his significance is found not in his successes, but in his sacrifice. So for a while, he continues working at Morgan Stanley. He does eventually become the managing director, but it doesn’t carry that same weight anymore. He’s proud of his work, but he also knows it’s not his identity. And that’s when he feels God calling him to something brand new.

Sam Rhee: So God place that desire in my heart to solve some of the bigger problems in finance with technology. And the one that I’m most passionate about is the problem of global pension and the retirement adequacy retirement preparedness.

Joseph Honescko: If you’re not familiar with this problem, it essentially comes down to the fact that people who retire are unable to sustain themselves.

Sam Rhee: Imagine people working all their lives, retiring and not having enough saved up.

Joseph Honescko: Some have to drastically cut back their quality of life, and others even end up in poverty. But the bigger issue is that this problem is growing in the world.

Sam Rhee: People are living longer so that, you know, horrible reality is going to be a reality for much longer than people think. And people have not been taught, whether it’s at the school or at home or even in the workplace, how to manage their personal finances well, how to prepare for their retirement. Well.

Joseph Honescko: While this is a global problem, Sam says there are particular concerns within the Asian population.

Sam Rhee: Unlike the developed markets, I think that Asia has aged much more rapidly without becoming rich. So China India doesn’t even have a proper social safety net. And it’s a massive, massive problem for the biggest population in the world. And so I felt that there was something that we could do.

Joseph Honescko: That last line is the kicker there. The core conviction, the magic phrase. I felt like there was something I could do about it. This is the call of every faith driven entrepreneur who has completely trusted God with their life, with their talent and their resources. Here is where God uniquely placed Sam to make a difference in the world through his company Endowus.

Sam Rhee: Endowus is a digital world platform that allows you to invest your private wealth and public pension. Basically, we’re trying to empower individuals and educate them and advise them and guide them towards a better future.

Gregory Van: So there is a wrong that we are trying to solve in the way financial services delivered.

Joseph Honescko: That’s the voice of Gregory Van, the co-founder and CEO of Endowus.

Gregory Van: My real hope is that we leave our mark, our longer term mark on the entire industry so that they all need to work to serve the client best, not just squeeze as much margin as they can along the way, which is what we see a lot of the time today. And if Endowus is successful. The world will be a better place because people will invest better. They’ll manage their money better, therefore be able to live easier today knowing that they prepared for their future and therefore live better.

Sam Rhee: I think that’s been a passion for me to seek justice and righteousness in the space of finance, because that’s the space where I think the rubber meets the road, where this God and mammon fight is most intense, and God has placed me here for that reason, I think.

Joseph Honescko: So that’s the full circle moment of this story. Sam, like so many of us, spent the early parts of his life trying to figure out his reason, his purpose, his calling. Along the way, he drifted in the ways of the world, believing a promotion was the ultimate goal in life. But once he laid all that down, once he gave away what he thought he earned and what he deserved, he began to experience the freedom of life in Christ. But first, he had to stop chasing Mammon.

Sam Rhee: The Bible says you cannot serve God and mammon. It’s because money has power. It’s more than just an inanimate object. And so we have to submit it to God. And the only way to really deep mammon is through radical giving. Because the world is all about taking more, having more. Hoarding more of this money. And so radical giving. Giving up your right to own more. Giving up your right to having more money. Giving up your right. That is the only way we can defeat Mammon and submit money and finance to God. I think that act of giving up what is your right is actually fundamentally what defines us as Christians.

Richard Cunningham: That act of giving up. What is, you’re right, is actually fundamentally what defines us as Christians. Wow, what a good word from Sam Rhee. What a powerful story and testimony and friends. That’s the calling all of us as faith driven investors to dethrone Mammon in our lives, not to be caught up in the worries of the world and the deceitfulness of riches. Thanks for listening today. Know that if you are ever processing through working through some of these exact threads that Sam talks about, the faith driven investor community wants to serve you. There are groups to process and journey alongside. Love having you here and we will catch you in a couple of weeks. Thanks, friends.

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In this episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast, Richard sits down with Henry Kaestner and Andrew Firman about the returns, rewards, and risks involved in investing in Africa. 

They discuss the opportunities and challenges of investing in the continent, the importance of spiritual integration in business, and the potential for economic development in Africa. 

They also highlight specific examples of innovative solutions being developed by African entrepreneurs to address real problems in the region. The conversation emphasizes the need for mentorship and support for African founders and encourages faith-driven investors to consider investing in Africa.

Episode Transcript

Richard: You’re listening to Fate Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Rusty: Hey everyone! All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard: Welcome everyone to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. A joy to have you with us from whenever and wherever you’re getting this July 1st, 2024 marks on the markets episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m Richard Cunningham, wonderful to have you with us. And all of you know, as our investor audience that we typically in Mark’s on the markets look at predominantly US public equities when we do this. And we’re taking a little trip across the pond today, deviating from the markets we normally look at. And we’re going to a continent that we have a deep passion and love for here in the FDI ecosystem, none more than our two guests here. And it’s the continent of Africa. And so we’ve got Henry Kissinger on to provide a little color commentary. And Andrew Furman, who runs Clio Ventures. Gentlemen, welcome onto the pod.

Andrew: Thanks for having us.

Henry: So good to be here, Richard.

Richard: Yeah. And I should say, welcome back, as you guys are both mainstays and great friends across this movement, have been trailblazers across the movement, and a lot of the work you’re doing right now is trailblazing in the continent of Africa. So let’s start there. As we get into this episode, where did that passion for Africa start in both of you? Andrew, we’ll start with you.

Andrew: You know, it’s a great question. I always sort of joke, if you would have told me five, six years ago, this is what I would have been doing, I probably would have chuckled it. It wouldn’t have quite made sense. The journey for me, and I think probably to Henry to some extent, because we’ve been on this together, even though he’s been on it longer than I have, is it really kind of came up as a really natural need that we saw in terms of capital mix with just some really incredible founders and people that we were meeting. I think a lot of this, and I know we’ll touch on this a bit later, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions people have that I had as well. And just, you know, early on and in that faith driven investor and faith driven entrepreneur journey, just meeting more and more and more specifically, I would say tech founders in Africa. And you walk away from these conversations thinking, this is not what I thought. This is incredibly awesome. Somebody needs to back them. So the really cool part of the journey for me is that it was incredibly unexpected, very natural, very iterative. And here we are.

Richard: That’s awesome. Henry, what about you? I feel like you’re kind of the John the Baptist for the continent of Africa, within the faith driven investing space. And so maybe give us a little of the background and color for your passion for the continent.

Henry: Oh gosh. Well, it sounds like a great thing to say. The reality, of course, is that the body of Christ has been here in Africa for hundreds of years, both on the missionary side, but to build hospitals and schools and and even business to. And while some of the legacy has been clouded by the extraction element, exploitation element of a lot of people that have gone into the marketplace in Africa, there have been some wonderful people and some amazing people on the continent that have been investing in faith driven entrepreneurs for decades. And yet there is, I think, though, I think you’re speaking of something that collectively, the body of Christ, primarily in the West, is starting to pay attention to it a bit more. And I think that we’re all kind of looking in emerging markets a little bit differently over the last 4 or 5 years. I think part of it is God removing the scales from our eyes to look at the rest of the world and realize that there’s 7.5 billion people who do not live in America. And that is we look at stories like and Bible, as you see on the parable of the Good Samaritan, we just realize that our neighbor is not necessarily the person living next door, but around the world. And realizing that God had worked through my career to help me to understand that there’s a lot of joy and a lot of productivity that can come from investing in emerging markets. We started an investment fund about 13 years ago, and seven of our first ten investments were in Jakarta and Singapore, and they were very, very successful both in terms of spiritual integration but also in terms of alpha. And that helped me to understand that there are great opportunities to invest with excellence overseas. And so when I went to Africa five years ago, six years ago, for the first time in a long time, I really think that God told me that all of the things that I’ve been doing up until then were in preparation to learning how to do investing and entrepreneurship with excellence. But bringing me to Africa and it’s given me great joy. Yeah, I love talking about it.

Richard: It’s awesome. And Andrew, why is it an investing approach as opposed to something like philanthropy or government work or NGO work, which is all exceptionally meaningful, as Henry was just talking about great believers being on the ground in Africa. But why investing in your specific approach?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a really good question. So let me just say at the outset, there’s a wonderful place for both philanthropy and charity, government aid, all of that. There’s natural disaster. We want to get people food. We want to get people water. We think the data is pretty clear that aid, whether it’s government, philanthropy, charity in the wrong area, can substantially harm economic development. And we think we’ve got a couple decades worth of data to show that in Africa, but also other places as well. So our heart for investing is we want to see that economic development. We think that a lot of the other aid and philanthropy are very helpful and needed Band-Aids. But we can’t just keep giving Band-Aids to Africa. We actually have to give that capital to see it take a step in terms of economic development. I think there’s another question within there as well, which is we’re. Really excited about venture, specifically because we think that a lot of cases, I don’t know if we think Africa’s going to grow in the same pattern that other places have, but for us, venture is being able to bring really innovative and a lot of times new solutions and ways of doing things to very real problems. And so we look at investing to say if we want a long term change trajectory of Africa and actually see people grow no longer dependent on that aid, that’s what we think is a solution, is investing in the continent.

Richard: Henry, what might you add to that?

Henry: So I’m fascinated by the relationship between dignity and dependency. And I can think about a number of different times in my life where I’ve been given things and I can be grateful, but also a number of things where God’s allowed me to have opportunities to really to innovate and create and get out there and take chances and fail and and to do well. And it’s been that iterative creative process where I’ve really felt like I’ve come alive in my faith, and I really felt like I’ve been able to make a contribution to society. And I think that it’s given me the right type of pride, a sense that God might use me, and that by going through a journey with him and taking chances in employing people and making a service and testing it out in the market, well, it allows me to feel like I’m in a place to be able to help lead the transformation in whatever marketplace or whatever industry has put me in. But what makes an entrepreneur? How does an entrepreneur thrive? How do you do the helping on the teaching? Well, part of it is the job skills, and there’s some incredible organizations that help teach entrepreneurial skills. All throughout the canon, I think about snap and I think about trigger, but capital and the Holy Spirit are the fuel that allow veteran entrepreneur to thrive. And when you can come alongside somebody and be strapped to the mast with them by putting skin in the game. I’m mixing too many metaphors, but you follow me. But being in it with an entrepreneur and like, I know that you’ve got this vision and we’ve talked about how you might think about product market fit, we’ve talked about how you might think about intellectual property or supply chain. And I know that you want to go out there and you want to hire some people, and you want to develop some channels to market, and you’re going to need some capital to do that. And I’m in it with you. That’s a powerful bond. There’s something about putting in the fuel that symbolically says, you know, beyond the training that I gave you, I’m in it. I’m going to go ahead and take something that’s near to me and dear to me that I’m stewarding and throw in with you the encouragement and the wind in the sails that that gives to an entrepreneur is amazing. It’s the way that God created us to be in community. And I think there’s something really special. We do that, and to be clear, that’s best done when it’s multifaceted, when you’re able to come into a deal together with local capital. Right. It’s oftentimes a bad recipe. When we go ahead and we have money, we’re coming in from the West. We find an entrepreneur in Africa. They win us over from their heart story. And we come in and and we invest in them. A lot of times that doesn’t go super well because at some point in time, their vice president of finance is going to leave, and then they need a new one, right? The local capital, they comes in at equal terms to us, is going to be able to help them to get a new vice president of finance or to make the introduction of the customer that they need. But the capital that we come in with, and maybe some of the experience we have in a different type of market can add value to. And so it’s just kind of it’s a mix. It’s a bunch of different things that allow for the entrepreneur to feel like I’ve got partners that have got my back that are praying for me, that are in it with me. I’ve got local partners, I got partners from overseas, and now I’ve got the momentum to get out there and do all that God has given me to do.

Richard: It’s well said. And then when you think about Africa from a just general tailwinds perspective and kind of from a demographic 30,000 foot view markets perspective, I’ve heard both of you kind of make the case for Africa demographically, whether it’s the population size and age and just everything that’s taking place on the continent. Unpack a little bit of that more, because there’s truly a passion here for the redemptive and the financial alpha side of faith driven investing in Africa. But there’s also, just from a good business sense, almost economic case for Africa as well.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a great question. So, you know, at the outset, let me give a quick sort of definition of what we practically see as venture capital in Africa. I think a lot of times in the US, we’re specifically thinking of, you know, advanced software, whatever that I SAS, whatever that might be. And to some extent, yes, it’s there in Africa. I don’t think we are going to see a lot of, you know, homegrown new AI type products out of Africa. That’s not exactly what we see. My definition of a venture capital investments a little bit simpler, which is something that can take on a rocket like growth trajectory. And so with that in mind, when we look at what we’ve seen be successful in Africa, I think there’s a little bit of a difference with the US, where in the US some of venture, not all is kind of nice to have products, right? Even thinking about ChatGPT incredibly useful to me. I probably use more AI tools and a lot of other people, but I’m using that with a. Over my head with access to food. I have the necessities already in Africa. A lot of the deals we’ve seen successful on the venture side are ones that are solving a core problem. So food access, last mile delivery, things like that. So going to your question, Richard, I view it as a couple things. There is a long list of tailwinds, whether it’s demographics, even tech penetration, smartphone adoption, all of that’s there. But I also think the other aspect that makes venture specifically very attractive, and I mean this from a tailwinds perspective, is there’s still a lot of problems in Africa. So we took a couple investors out there a few months ago. And I think one of the eye opening things for them was we were in a country in West Africa. And as we were driving from the airport to the hotel, they were seeing these local informal markets. And you’re kind of looking at all this and at the infrastructure or lack of it and thinking, well, how can venture exist here? But then you sort of have this moment of a really amazing tech founder that understands venture, looks at this is a glass half full mentality. There is a problem to be solved. And if we can do that in a commercially viable way, the world is our oyster. But also we’re going to be able to help a lot of people. So I think when when people hear my case for it, I think there are a lot of times surprised to hear me put there are a lot of problems that need to be solved on that list of tailwinds. But that’s what we think. We think there are a lot of great things in its favor, and the fact that there are opportunities we think are going to be solved by innovative solutions. That’s where venture comes in.

Henry: Yeah, and I think that’s important. Also, when you talk about venture, let’s talk about what we think of when we think of the African entrepreneur until 5 or 6 years ago. And this is gonna sound wrong because it is wrong. I thought of the African entrepreneur as somebody that’s making handicrafts, making oven mitts, and helping disadvantaged people to learn how to diversify their income by, again, making handicrafts. Or I thought about Fairtrade coffee, or I thought about mining or things like that. I had no idea about what was going on in fintech or software as a service and how Africa now it’s got 20 or 30 years of a legacy of jumping over traditional legacy telecommunications banking. You think about some of the best financial apps in the world have their origin in Africa. You think about Android, what is it? 5 or 6 unicorns have come out of the continent of Africa. There’s an innovative, particularly in West Africa. There’s an innovative aspect to their culture, and then there’s this financial need that has helped them create different products, which actually their marketplaces are ahead of what we have in America. And that’s continuing on. And one of the things that we’re seeing now is, is just seeing more and more African technologies. And that’s why you’ve got unicorns coming out of Africa. You couple that with the fact that you’re going to have twice as many people in Africa, because the average age in Africa is 19, with the fact that they are having massive economic development, many of their economies are growing at a rate faster than the United States. You bring all those things together, the innovative culture, the size of the market, the speed at which it’s growing. And you’ve got this cocktail for great financial returns from venture at lower valuations. And you’d find in the United States, which has lower growth rates and a different type of product base. And so that’s exciting. You couple that with the fact that, well, clearly the West has gotten bigger market. You’re starting to see downstream opportunities for liquidity. So when you come into a deal and see a deal or an aid deal, maybe ten, 15 years ago, the market wasn’t mature enough to a place where you could really see where acquisitions would come in, or there could be a B round or C round. But increasingly, you’re starting to see that because strategic in America are looking at Africa and seeing the market size and saying, you know what? We’ve been duking it out with people for market share here in the West for quite some time. Let’s go to where the market’s getting bigger and where it’s getting more prosperous, and where there’s more capital to buy the products and services online through the apps and the marketplaces and people coming to Africa.

Richard: What about from a risk standpoint, guys, because so Kaleo Ventures has a portfolio of 30 plus ventures, and just you guys are off to an incredibly hot start. Henry, I know on your own, you’ve also done a number of deals in Africa, whether it be through funds or with other faith driven entrepreneurs. When you’re talking to LPs and people are just you’re talking about Africa in the case and you’re making a number of the point you’re making right now, I got to think they’re just like, hey, this frontier market is probably has so much risk. How do you approach that conversation? How do you get someone to kind of from all of like the demographics you’ve pointed out in the possibilities, but how do you kind of get them warmed up to the idea of like, hey, there is a legitimate economic viability here?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a really good question. You know? And one of the funny things for me is I think people are surprised where a lot of times in conversations with anyone who’s curious about Africa, they’ve got a list of ten things that scare them and it’s foreign currency. It’s all that. And I think people are expecting me to have a really good argument for why their view of economics is wrong, or that geopolitical. And it’s only not that I normally respond yes to most of the risk they face where I push is, I think sometimes we complicate some of the basic tenets of investing. If we can think back to what it is seventh grade, eighth grade algebra, and we think about, you know, probability weighted outcomes or it’s, you know, the parentheses. Are expected return. That’s what investing is. And I think a lot of times we forget that most of what we consider risk, which I put in quotes because I don’t always know what people mean when they talk about the risk. Most of it is just basic math, which means we can tweak some of the inputs and get a different output. Like one example I normally give is. A lot of times I’ll talk to people who view Africa only as concessionary and they do equity investing. In my mind, that’s a math problem. I’ll ignore dilution and a lot of other of the complications here. But like, let’s assume that your average entry valuation for a company is $10 million and you say you’re a concessionary fund because maybe you’re returning a net IRR of like 10%. That’s not the company’s problem that you’re investing. It’s not the portfolio company. If you have that valuation that you get in that $5 million entry, your return profile looks very different. Now, a lot of other considerations with minimum check size, maximum all that. But the bottom line for me is risk is really a math problem. If you gave me a $10 million valuation US deal. Same deal in Africa for ten. My case isn’t that we do the deal in Africa. We wouldn’t. The question I have is at what level of valuation does that become attractive if you bring that $10 million deal in Africa down to eight to 6 to 4 to 2 to 1 at some level, as an investor, you go, okay, even though there are these ten risks we don’t see in the US, man, it’s attractive at a $2 million valuation. So our main pitches, we think investors tend to view risk in a binary fashion. The US is not risky. Africa is risky. But we forget that Warren Buffett aphorism that you can find a great company that makes an awful investment. That’s how we view it. Risk is not binary. There are ways to structure around it, and a lot of it is based on the valuation that you find.

Henry: Okay. I love that I think that’s right on. But I’m going to go ahead and look at it from a little bit of a different angle. My biggest risk is getting up to heaven. And God is like look you knew there seven half billion people didn’t live in America. And you knew that when you gave a cup of cold water and in the name of Jesus, you took care of the poor. Those are the different types of things that pleased me. And since you knew was my capital all together, who told you that it was all about building up a bigger pile of capital so that you could either hand it on to next generation, or give it away, because you knew intellectually that giving it away wasn’t always the best way to lift people out of financial spiritual poverty. So my risk is at the end when I get up there and I’m called into account now, I think that the interview is going to go great because we have a loving God who loves us, and yet we know that there’s going to be some level of accounting about what we did while we’re on Earth and beyond that. And because that sounds too fear based, I right now want to experience his joy as I steward his capital. My greatest risk is that I live this existence where I just have index funds, and just the things that might seem to make sense on a risk adjusted return by just staying in America. And I live this plain vanilla life in a way that’s black and white, and I miss the technicolor, beautiful tapestry of investing in these different economies. And yes, with excellence in a way that you can get return. But I get down on my knees and I ask God how I might steward his capital. Where might I deploy his capital through the experiences he’s given me in a way that advances his kingdom the most, I have to change my paradigm about how I think about risk now. I think as we do that, we might find that we might get great return in terms of financial return. And I think that we can invest with biblical values and make great returns, not at the expense of biblical values, but because of them. And fortunately, that’s worked well in Southeast Asia and thus far in Africa. But the greater risk for me, the greater risk is God saying, listen, I give you all this opportunity, all this capital of steward. And you knew that the marketplace was going to double in Africa. You knew that investing in entrepreneurs and then entrepreneurs were cultural change agents. You knew all of these things, but you just elected just to do it where it was safe. Man, I just don’t want it to go down like that. And so at same time, I don’t want to preach or force anybody to invest in Africa, in my experience. So it just getting down my knees and like, God, how would I do this? And I felt him calling me to do that as a big part of what I do. But the listeners to this might go through that same exercise. Lord, how would you have me steward your capital? I just listen this crazy podcast guess you kept on telling me about Africa is the place to be. Lord, if you want me to go there and to investigate it and look at the different funds that are out there and look at their assets under management, look at their track records, look at their spiritual integration, and whether they indeed are moving the needle in the way the marketplace is set up. If you lead me there, find me faithful. If instead you have me to invest in faith driven investing in real estate in America, lead me there. But allow me to experience your joy now while I allocate your capital, and allow me to just be faithful and obedient to what you’d have me do.

Richard: So maybe let’s get into specifics of some of these stories pulling color for us a little bit. So. This episode releases on July 1st, 2024. We’re recording it on Friday, June 21st. Andrew Henry, you’re hopping on a plane and going to Africa tomorrow, so talk to me about some of the entrepreneurs, the folks. You get to go see some of these. Henry, you’ve used the word spiritual integration a number of times now, as you guys invest specifically in faith driven entrepreneurs. Tell us some of the stories and some of more captivating things that you’ve seen.

Andrew: Yeah, I’d love to. So, you know, going back to what I said about some of the really good venture founders we find in Africa are ones that are tackling something that is a problem that would cause people not to invest in Africa. So one of the common ones we hear is, well, how can there be economic development when there’s not consistent access to the power grid, right. And so we’ve got two startups that I absolutely love. One of them is focused on, you know, it’s a it’s a software solution that helps utility providers minimize grid loss. And with some of the initial pilots they ran, you know, they’re a couple of years past launch now. But average on grid time went up by about 35 or 40%. So if you think of the working day and you’re adding 35 or 40% of power to the working day, the economic benefit of that is massive. And so again, it’s this glass half full mentality. Yes. Lack of access to power is a huge problem in Africa, but a really good, innovative founder is going to find a way to fix that. We’ve got another one that, you know, for a lot of places in Africa, solar is actually probably one of the best solutions. It’s incredibly cost effective. And it’s also very dependable because a lot of these rural areas especially, or even some of the urban areas, there’s some of the at the mercy of the grid, which ties into governments. Have they been efficient with funds, all of that. So to be able to essentially have your own grid through solar is massive. But the upfront cost of solar is very prohibitive to actual adoption. So we’ve got a company that is essentially a credit or financing plug. So kind of a mix of fintech and climate tech. And those are the kind of solutions that we think are great. They adapt well to the context in Africa. If they’re successful, they’re going to help an incredible number of people, but they’re trying to do this in a commercially viable way. So those are the types of solutions we see as identifying a real problem in Africa. They’re thinking, how can we think through a new innovative solution to cover that. And so we just continually meet with founders. We don’t invest in everyone we meet unfortunately. But you know, I think everyone we meet with, we just love this passion and this energy of, you know, whether it’s the continent as a whole or in most cases, it’s their country that they love and they want to see and grow, and they’re just trying to think through really new, cool ways to solve very real problems.

Henry: Yeah, well, I’m glad that you don’t invest in everyone that you see. I think that a good venture portfolio invest in a distinct minority. So I think the selectivity that you and other managers have there is really, really important. But I want to also introduce a different paradigm. And I semi conscious of the fact I’m getting all preachy on this podcast. I don’t think that that sells podcast very well, but there’s a working theory of change that I have when I think about the alleviation of financial and spiritual poverty in Africa, that I think is really compelling for me. And it’s twofold. One is that when you think about spiritual integration, because that’s the other thing, like, so we talk about risk. We’ve unpack that a little bit, some nuance. And I think that Andrew looking because he is he’s a fiduciary manager to deliver and wants to be a top quartile fund to deliver great financial return. That’s his job. And he does that. And that’s important. And I looked at risk from a little bit of a different level as an LP in his fund about how I get excited about what it looks like to come alongside these men and women of their faith as they look to be a blessing on their community. And one of the things that is really just captivating me, and has allowed me to experience more joy in my investing in Africa, is that when I sit down with an entrepreneur in Africa and I meet some of Andrew’s portfolio or some of the portfolio companies of the other funds we’ve invested in, they get spiritual integration in the fact that they can bring their whole selves to work into the marketplace every day. Somewhat of a foreign concept here in the United States, when you work with a feature, an entrepreneur in America, you have to help them to come along to understand that their work matters to God, and that being a Christ follower means that you can share your faith when someone in your story, when somebody in the marketplace, you can pray for people in Jesus’s name. These are all things that are counterintuitive to a Western entrepreneur that is trying to throw off the vestiges of an evangelical Gnosticism. What in the world does that mean? Well, you know, a lot of us in the missions world will know that you can go to a place where they formerly had animist beliefs, and then they convert to Christianity. You go to their churches and it’s kind of this mix up of just, you know, kind of some of the animist traditions and then the new Christian ones. It’s called syncretism. And it’s easy for us from the West to be able to see that and say, that’s really weird, and that’s messed up, and it is. And yet we’re unconscious of the same type of syncretism we have here in the United States, and that is that we come out of the Greek belief. Gnostics were early heretics, but it was just the way that things happened in the agora, in the Greek marketplace. The Greeks believed in a separation between the secular and the spiritual, and we have exacerbated that. And that ends up being the case today. And you don’t see that in the Bible. You see Lydia, you see Paul. You see Priscilla and Aquila, you see these people bringing their faith into the marketplace in a way that was just inclusive. Well, we have to realize that because we come from the Greek tradition, we have those challenges. They don’t have that in Africa. In Africa, the traditional faith traditions are that if you have a problem with your business, you go to the witchdoctor and he gives you an idol to put in the store window, or he gives you a powder sprinkle over your competitors products. When they come to Christ, they haven’t come out of that type of background. And of course their work matters in the spiritual world. They have no problem praying with people in Jesus’s name. They have no problem talking about their story. We don’t have to talk about the integration, about being a blessing, making a redemptive product and service, loving on their partners, vendors, customers in place. That becomes intuitive and the next thing that happens, and this is one of the things that Andrew and I are going to be spending some time with, with some of these companies next week, is that as they integrate their faith and they become more generous and they understand that God owns it all. They’re in a great spot to go on boards of ministries and orphanages in the villages they came from, and to love on the people in an expanding marketplace. Nigeria has 210, 220 million people going to 400 million. The people are going to have the best idea about how to come up with the right type of new systems for adoption, or foster care or church planning are going to come from this entrepreneurial class. They’re going to be coming in with their own financial money, their own resources, their time, their resources, and then inviting us to come along side with them. So sometimes I wrestle with. You know, we’re investing all these fintech entrepreneurs, many of whom are Western educated. And is that really going to be enough to lift people out of poverty in these villages? Because that’s a big passion of mine. Well, I think that part of the answer is understanding that since entrepreneurs are the cultural change agents and continents in emerging markets like Africa, that if we can come along with them and give them an alternate sense of what success looks like from the financial success that they will have, what does that look like? And instead of going ahead and buying a flat in Kensington or sending their kids to Eton or Deerfield or Phillips Exeter for them to instead understand that God owns the financial resources that will come out of their business, and to pour that back in to their countries that they know the culture of. That’s what gets me really fired up.

Richard: Henry, why are you talking about those specific countries? I think it’d be helpful to do this real quickly. Where are you guys focus currently from? Like, a specific country standpoint. And are there differences? Kind of. Africa is a massive place, like in kind of what you’re seeing in West Africa versus East Africa, and where kind of some of your focuses.

Henry: Well, Andrew should answer that for his find a clue from a family office perspective. We’ve invested in funds in East Africa, in South Africa and then in West Africa. I may have a special place in my heart for West Africa, because the dynamism of the marketplace and just there’s a creativity and innovation of entrepreneurs there that’s really compelling. But there are great opportunities to invest in entrepreneurs all over emerging markets and in Africa, pretty much in every sector.

Andrew: You know, and I would agree with what Henry said. You know, on our thesis, we are technically a Pan Africa fund, so we’re one of the few we can actually do North Africa as well, even though, to be clear, we haven’t. I think a lot of times, you know, we’ve done a lot of investing in East Africa. So some in Kenya, Uganda, Ethiopia, South Africa, Latin Nigeria. The one clarification I normally make is I think especially when Western Christians talk about Africa, they tend to say Kenya and Nigeria in the same sense. And I just try to remind people Kenya is just over 50 million people, Nigeria’s 220. So yes, again, very developed countries. We’ve got some great portfolio companies. Kenya. We love Kenya. Nigeria is big. And when you think about, any kind of venture backed company to have a captive market that’s four times bigger without having to go cross-border is a very big deal. So we are pan Africa and probably with deals in 12 or 15 countries. But, really West Africa for us is a good additional focus to have just because, again, it’s just such a larger population to some extent, a little bit more untapped. I think that a lot of the DFI and some of the more impact focused money for a lot of good reasons has centered on East Africa. The UN’s there, there’s some easier entry points. And so to some extent, West Africa is a little bit more untapped. And as Henry said, in some ways we just see a little bit more of an innovative approach to problems because they really haven’t had the capital access in the past. And so their only option is finding something different that’s market compatible.

Richard: Well said. Thanks for explaining that. That’s probably a good point to plug if you’re a faith driven investor out there. Curious about frontier emerging markets, Africa specifically, whatever it might be, there are faith driven investor groups designed to go focus on specific geographies. I feel like I mean, I want to plug in, explore West Africa, East Africa or Southeast Asia, what have you. There are ways to plug in to the FDI kind of community and ecosystem with that geographic lens, alongside other faith driven investors who are passionate about a particular area. All right, gents, last question. And then I want to hear about what the Lord’s been teaching you in his word. And we’ll wrap this thing. But I’m a faith driven investor listening to this podcast, and I’m still kind of wondering, man, like, it just feels like the investment minimums would be so large to go into Africa and make a change or just I’m not there yet. Like, I can’t hop on a plane reasonably like the two of you and go to Africa tomorrow and things of that nature. What all opportunities as you think about the continent, are there beyond maybe just capital or what is kind of that final thing you’d like to kind of encourage someone with or leave with them?

Andrew: It’s such a good question. You know, one of the things about a year ago, I started we’ve got some friends who are a little bit later founders maybe kind of series B or series C in Africa. And over the course of a couple of weeks, I pulled all of them and essentially asked them how much of the mentorship that you’ve been given from people in the West has ported over to the African context? And the reason I ask that question is, as I talk to Americans, I think their view is I don’t have anything to offer. Right? I mean, I just don’t understand Africa. I don’t stand a local context. I don’t understand the risks that they face. And the average number and I have is written down. The average number was 95%. So in other words, the founders at succeed tend to say almost all of the mentorship that we can glean from somebody in the West ports over to Africa. So yes, there are local things that you might not know, but I think my encouragement would be if you’ve got a heart for it, and maybe over the capital or the logistics or even the time to pursue it, don’t underestimate the impact that you can have made. Terms of mentorship perspective to a younger or just earlier founder in Africa. I think that would be the encouragement I’d want to give is there are more ways to help than just capital, and it’s probably going to be more helpful than you think.

Henry: My encouragement would be to just check it out. And there’s some really, really neat funds out there. And of course, Andrew with Kaleo. But you’ve got Sango, you’ve got a Rua future Africa Ventures platform, aka Creed. There’s just some really, really compelling ways to get in, to invest with excellence, with people who understand the marketplace and then just and pray about it. If the body of Christ just realized that God does care about how we steward his capital and ask him, Lord, should I be looking at this or not? That’s the big one.

Richard: All right. Well, our favorite question to ask on the pod, what’s God been teaching you in it through his Word lately? And we’ll close there.

Andrew: You know, I think my answer, this is one of those things that’s not new, but I think we have to continually remember as believers, I’ve been in the book of Hebrews in Leviticus a lot, and I think Lord’s been hammering home is the work is finished. I know Jesus said that on the cross, but you see in Hebrews, you know, he sat down at the right hand of the father. Our high priest sat down. He finished his work. That’s what the Lord’s been showing me. The work is done first.

Henry: I love, of course, this question, and really the story in the Bible is that I think it got really used on me recently. Is the ten lepers okay, Jesus going down the street and he sees ten lepers and he heals them all. And some amount of time goes by and I don’t know how much time it was, but one comes back and thanks him in a loud voice. Okay, what happened? The other nine? What do they do? Well, I don’t know. They went back to the office and all these emails get caught up on. Or maybe some of the lepers went back and try to figure out if that cute girl that they knew before they had leprosy is still available. I don’t even know what they’re doing, but they got distracted. Only one came back and said, thank you. If you look at that story from an apocryphal vantage point, Jesus walks down the street, sees ten lepers, and says, here’s the deal. You’re going to have to work for me for the next 7 or 8 months. I’m going to get you at 6 a.m., and you get off your shift at 10 p.m., but at the end of that, you will have earned your freedom from this debilitating skin disease. How many of the ten would have taken him up on that deal? The answer is all ten. And then we have this challenge with the beauty and the challenge of our Orthodox Christian faith, which is we have unmerited favor, free grace. And the question is, am I the one leper? Am I going back and praising God in a loud voice? Or am I completely sucked in by the worries of the world and the deceitfulness of riches? And I don’t have the opportunity to have the type of return of the 30, 60, 100 fold. Because if we just have an intellectual cultural understanding, the odds are that nine out of ten of us won’t live the type of life that we’re capable of, and we’re at a disadvantage to other faith traditions in some of these emerging markets that are based on earning your salvation by doing good works. But again, if we can really capture the beauty of the gift given us and the value of it, then God can use that to multiply again 30, 60, or 100 fold, which gives us an advantage over the faith traditions where you have to earn something. And so what he’s been teaching me is and just really question is like, are you the one leper I want to be the one leper. I don’t want to be the nine.

Richard: That’s awesome. Well, Andrew Furman, Cleo Ventures Henry Kastner, obviously co-founder of the Faith driven movement, both of you guys are such a profound encouragement. You’ve been trailblazing inside this FDA space. Safe travels to Africa. Have a wonderful trip. Thank you for what you guys are doing, the work you’re doing, the ways you’re kind of helping faith driven investors shift their focus from maybe just their domestic focus to what else God is doing across the globe. What a joy to have you on, gents.