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A raw conversation reveals how wealth’s isolation is driving an unexpected movement of faith-driven investors to find their tribe. Leaders Justin Foreman and Samantha Couch join Richard Cunningham showcase Faith Driven Investor’s global expansion in 2024, from European watch parties to intimate mastermind groups uniting investors seeking deeper purpose. Their bold message for 2025? “The riskiest thing is to do nothing” – and their growing network of Christian investors is proving it.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham [00:00:00] You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ, following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 [00:00:17] Hey everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham [00:00:46] Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. What is the final FDI pod of 2024? So with that in mind, friends, Merry Christmas. I know this podcast will release the week of Christmas, so maybe you’re catching us on a drive to see people you love. Maybe you’re taking a break in the Christmas tunes wrap in that final Christmas present, what have you, and we’re hanging out with you. But regardless of where you are, I hope you have yourself a wonderful Merry Christmas. And hey, with that in mind, a couple of quick housekeeping things. We’re going to return to the FDI podcast after a little break around Christmas and New Year’s on January 13th. So mark your calendars. That will be our likely first release date of 2025 will be coming in hot with a marks on the markets. And then one final thing to say about today’s episode is no Luke Roush or John Coleman with us. A couple of our mainstays. We’re bringing in another one of our mainstays who’s been a frequent guest of the FDI podcast recently, as we’ve been doing a couple of blended FTE and FDI pods, President and executive director of the Faith Driven Movements, Justin Foreman. And just so we’re doing something special today is we’re just going to highlight what all is going on in the FDI movement, what our guide has done in 2024. And you’ve brought someone exceptionally special with us today to do that.

Justin Forman [00:01:59] We have. I thought this was the podcast we were talking about Baylor football. Was this not the Baylor football like pre-game, but.

Richard Cunningham [00:02:04] That’s our next.

Justin Forman [00:02:04] One. That’s an.

Richard Cunningham [00:02:05] Excellent one. Yeah. After we’re going to spare, I guess you and I eight and four takes on the Baylor Bears, even though you think we think we won the national championship.

Justin Forman [00:02:12] Yeah, we might get recording before we go way too far. And that indeed it is good to be back. You know it’s fun. I feel privileged to be here to really kind of bring together friends, you know, in any good office, friendship, family rivalry, whatever word you choose to use, there are sometimes a couple of people that just are just like culture core. And when I think about that, when I think about faith driven investing, I think about Richard. But I also think about Samantha and I think about just the fun banter that you guys have had over the years about the movement, about the mission. And it’s fun just getting friends together here, just to talk about to celebrate what God’s done. You know, I know our faith during we’re often so quick to build, to think. To do that, we need those moments to reflect and we need those moments to celebrate. And I think that there’s ample amounts of scripture when we think about reflection and stones of remembrance. And I hope that in some ways, you know, the conversation today is a chance to do that, to reflect upon what God has done over this past year. And when I think about what God has done, certainly a huge part of that has been the work of Samantha leading the team Faith Driven Investor for the coaching and community and so much else. And so it’s really fun to be together here again.

Richard Cunningham [00:03:28] Yeah. So welcome to the podcast studio from the Louisville, Kentucky area. Samantha Couch Sam is a vice president and helps lead the team at Faith Driven Investor. So oftentimes with Luke, John and myself and then the guests we bring in, we’re talking markets, we’re talking asset classes, what it might be, just kind of things we’re seeing as investors and the movement ourselves. And I just don’t say and rarely do we kind of take a step back and just say, hey, let’s focus on the team. Who is building this movement? Sam is helping lead out the FDI team. And let’s just pause and acknowledge, Hey, look at all that like God did in 2020 for you. So faithful it’s celebrating. Kind of tease out some of the things to come in 2025. So Sam, great to have you on the spot.

Samantha Couch [00:04:07] Thank you so much. Like just inside, it’s really, really fun to have the group back together and to be with you. So I’m excited to be here.

Richard Cunningham [00:04:14] I’m going to be great. So let’s travel back in time a little bit to beginning of the year. And there was the first kind of standalone FDI conference is all around this theme of getting in the game, saying maybe kind of take us back to it. Was January correct, when this conference came out and just highlight some of what took place? We did a number of podcasts following the conference with guests who spoke on it. But take us back to kind of the genesis of 2020 fourth annual FDI Conference.

Samantha Couch [00:04:41] Yeah, it was a great time. And like you said, it was the first time that we’d ever done it as a standalone. You know, previously we’ve been kind of tacked on to the podcast, so we didn’t really know what to expect, but we just knew that we were excited about it and it just took off like wildfire. So we had watch parties all around the world. I think we had over 90 large parties and people stepping into this and saw just great celebrations in places like Chicago. We had over 100 people attend the launch party in Chicago. I think two of the top five launch party locations were in Europe, which was really fun to see in the Ukraine and the Netherlands and the things that we’ve seen come out of the community and the group together in the Netherlands have been incredibly inspiring, really fun to watch. And it just seemed to really be such a pivotal moment for the Faith Driven Investor movement and the growth that we’ve seen over this past year. And everybody who’s been stepping into communities, stepping in to lead a foundation group, be a part of a foundation group, all of the many, many conversations we’ve been able to have with individuals over the last year have really. Because of how fantastic that conference was in January.

Richard Cunningham [00:05:50] Absolutely. We had a big conference watch party here in Austin. Reiner Center of the National Christian Foundation, helped host it in partnership with FDI, which is great. And so, Justin, why did kind of you bifurcate what was the decision that it’s like, hey, let’s keep the conference in September, let’s move FDI out on its own? It’s hard to believe that only happened this year. This shows how much growth there’s been in the movement that was still in 2020 for calendar year. And what was kind of the heart there?

Justin Forman [00:06:14] Yeah. You know, I think one of the things to pause for a moment to say, like what’s the method of the madness? And some that’s still being figured out, right? But when you figure out just kind of what the mission of Faith Driven Entrepreneur feature and investing is, and at its core, it’s really about awakening the body of Christ to see in this moment, in this unique time the unique role that entrepreneurs and investors have to play. And the world is surrounded in full of darkness and we can see that we don’t have to look far to find it. I think the question for us is, is, as we would say, what does it look like to kind of take that beachhead of darkness and bring light to it? And when we think about that, maybe it’s kind of like if you were drawn up, battle plans coming ashore on the beach and you were saying, okay, woman What would be the tip of the spear? And when we thought about that, we know the entrepreneurship culture. There’s no doubt that we don’t have to look far down the street from your hometown to find, you know, an entrepreneur creating self-driving cars, robots and reusable rockets. And there is no doubt when we see that happening that it’s shaping culture and we see that same thing happening in faith driven investing.

We see the stories of Anthony Tan, we see Sam read some of those stories. We see stories of Susanne Daniel and so many others that are getting involved in partnering with other entrepreneurs. And so when we think about the mission of Faith driven, it really starts with that entrepreneur. Changing culture. Shifting culture. But any entrepreneur can’t get very far without having that supply line and that support. And that’s where the Faith Driven Investor and conversation has come in. And, you know, as you said, we’re smile at the fact that it kind of like in some ways it was really the first year for the Faith Driven Investor conference. But for the past few years, it paired up with the conference and there was a conference on one day and you have the conference. And the second thing, I think what we found out was there was just a lot of people that, you know, you get fatigued and the two day conference for there is a lot of content. You don’t get a fair chance to really absorb it, but also to find the unique people that should be there for it.

Justin Forman [continued] And so the decision to spread those out was to give each their own room and a chance to breathe and to be that top of funnel moment to introduce people. We really look at this as the front door. It’s the front porch of a conversation to say, you know, a couple of hours from the convenience of a zoom screen or in-person with friends that you can really get a chance to say, how do I find out about this big trend, this big thing that’s happening? And I’m hearing a lot of people talk about, but I just don’t know what it is. I don’t know what’s happening and I don’t know how to get involved. And so it’s that really kind of one, two, three set up that when we really think about this event, it’s designed to do and we think that the content starts the conversation. We think then it moves into something further with these foundation groups, and I’m sure Sam will share a little bit more about. But it was an exciting time for us to really say there is a bigger thing happening and Faith Driven Investor to separate it, make it its own day.

And I think what it also was exciting for our team is it changed the dynamic of who you partner with when you partner with NEF. The conference, a lot of times that was a church and it makes sense. That’s where the entrepreneurs are. When we think about the Faith Driven Investor event, it really has opened up the door for so many great partnerships with advisors and friends like National Christian Foundation and Blue Trust and others that have been hosting these, saying, You really called to bring this content and this mission and this message to our people and we want a place to do that. And if you can help us set the table for it and what a great chance it is to partner. And so, yeah, it was fun For many years that we’ve done it. We really believe that this was kind of really the first one where the FDI flag was planted. And I think we saw that both in the response with, you know, close to 100 watch parties, 2000 people in attendance and high capacity investors, people are giving up their time then are really saying, hey, I’m stewarding large sums of capital and we want to find those ways to make a difference with it.

So, yeah, a fun moment for the movement. It’s one of those stones of remembrance when you see organizations and ministries partnering with it to really push the conversation forward.

Richard Cunningham [00:10:12]

And love it. And we’re going to talk about the 2025 conference coming up here shortly as we kind of hit on some of the things coming down the pipeline. But Sam, you lead a stellar team, a full team, and I swear no one has more jam packed calendars in the FDI team. And so naturally, the conference in January is not the only thing that’s happened. And so then kind of from there, Justin mentioned this audience that you serve the high capacity investor who wants to get in the game to use the conference team with their capital. What is then kind of the year look like in these foundation groups and what have you?

Samantha Couch [00:10:42]

Yeah, so the natural next step. For anybody who’s coming into the conference is to either host a foundation group or to be a part of one. And for those of you who are listening, if you aren’t familiar with our foundation’s group, it really is. It’s a great time of community to come together with your peers for six weeks, to watch some of our content and know walk through some great conversations and talking about really the heart posture and what Faith Driven Investor is, and to be able to have that in community with other people. Right. Because so often if we are working really hard to listen to the Word of God and to be obedient and that’s what this is, this hard posture of getting down on your knees and praying about how God wants you to steward the resources that you’ve been gifted with. Having a community to also be in that conversation with and be prayerful and intentional about that with you is so important because if you hard to discern your voice verses the voice of God. And so having your peers and some people for accountability to walk through that is critical when you’re talking about things like this. And walking through that, we have those cohorts, gosh, we do basically four different cycles of cohorts a year and we’ll do that again in 2025. So it’s just been an incredible year of growth, like I said earlier, and looking at even 2023 versus 2024, we almost doubled in size in the number of people who are intentionally stepping into this community. We even had opportunities to go deeper and more specific topics like real estate and emerging markets and public markets, direct investing, solving the world’s greatest problems, which is something else that we’ve been talking a lot about. And so it’s been really, really fun not only to see people take this first step into community, but also come out of it on the other side of like understanding where they feel like God has called them to, and then having a deeper community to step into and have those conversations around real estate or emerging markets and things like that.

Justin Forman [00:12:35] You know, I think Sam’s hitting on something huge. Wealth isolates. Let’s face it. We need to say the very clear thing out loud and that oftentimes it’s hard to find a safe place. You know, one of the things I love about what Sam has really talked about here is creating both a high bar and a safe place, but creating a place of affinity. And I think to find a safe place and to find that high bar, you have to find a place of affinity. And it’s not because that we’re trying to push people into it’s about numbers and scales, but it’s about the unique challenges that we face. Depending upon how much God is entrusted us to steward, depending upon the structure of how that is set up, family offices and donor advised funds and whatever that might look like. It just looks different.

And so what I’ve loved is, is this year we’ve been able to step into that where we can say, Hey, here’s a group for advisors, here’s a good friend Busters. They’re at the stage, here’s a group for advisors are stepping into that stage. And I think that one of the things that I’ve loved is, is that we’ve been able to drill down and kind of some of the questions, kind of the personas of people are in this journey. And Sam can allude to some of this, but I think that we find that there’s probably three personas that people step in in this conversation with. One, they’re intimidated. They’re just afraid. They just don’t know what is under the hood. And and candidly, some of us just don’t want to spend the time to. It’s not because it’s not good. It’s not because it’s a worthwhile endeavor. We just are afraid or afraid of what we might find there. Maybe our investing is canceling out our philanthropic initiatives and we’re we just don’t want to spend the time and we need some help.

Now, obviously, there’s great people in the movement, river Guides, that will help you with that process and make that accessible. But I think the unassuming, kind of easy, accessible online nature of some of these community groups really makes it easy for people to get in. I think the second person that we find that’s coming to this group is entrepreneurs that are scaling. They believe in the power of entrepreneurship, a culture. They know that for a fact. They’re convinced of it in their heart, but they just don’t know what that looks like. To do that and to invest in faith driven entrepreneurs in the way that maybe they’ve been invested in. And so I think that’s a fun dynamic that’s coming of age and you’re seeing that growing as these are scaling.

Justin Forman [continued] And then a third one and this is, you know, something we really want to make clear, it’s the teachers and it’s the leaders. It’s the pioneers of this movement. And we have to really pause here to say this movement is a your movement and it only goes as far as you roll up your sleeves to help make it go. Like oftentimes we can think that there’s somebody else that’s going to do something. But that’s not the case here. This is an active movement where everybody that’s called into it needs to be a part of it. And our call is is really to say, okay, what does it look like to get these teachers, to get these leaders to realize that you might feel like you’re only a couple of steps ahead. But in this movement, that’s new and that’s for me, it’s those couple steps that make all the difference. The person right behind you.

And we need these leaders to step in to say, what does it look like to facilitate a group? What does it look like to facilitate a watch party to make this stuff happen? We try to make it easy. We try to make it easy so that the easy button can get pushed and we can set the table for it. But nonetheless, this is one of those times where there’s needs to be that are a factor, that replication factor. That pay it forward kind of moment. Otherwise, this thing doesn’t go very far. But thankfully, we’ve seen people rolling up their sleeves and saying with humility, I don’t pretend to be the expert. I just know a couple of things that I’ve learned from somebody else in this movement, and I want to pay that forward. And so I just love that as we think about groups in the work that Sam and her team has done, the maturing that’s happened that we’ve made it, we’ve gotten better at matchmaking. We’ve gotten better at being able to match people to the stage of group where they’ll have the best experience, but also the stage to find the best leaders to lead that next group.

Richard Cunningham [00:16:21] Yeah, it’s well said from both of you. And I think, you know, in an effort to make sure that folks listening are not like, gosh, this is super promotional about groups or what all FDI is doing, like that is not the heart of this at all. Because I want to kind of talk about this real quickly is that, one, as we know, discipleship and growth spiritually is a hand to hand combat sport like it happens and intimate settings between you and the Lord or you in tight knit community. And that’s what this facilitates.

Richard Cunningham [continued] But also the groups are kind of the first line of defense of like what is taking place. These are the front lines in the movement, like the themes we’re unpacking on a podcast oftentimes bubbled back up to us because a real estate group is talking about how much equity is locked up in church real estate. And so then last week we have Nick Bonner on the FDI podcast, or folks are getting together and saying, Man, the content inside our home that we’re watching on whatever streaming platform it is, is just not redemptive. And so then all of a sudden we’re processing that on an FDI podcast with a filmmaker or someone at a studio, and that’s informing investment product that now is out in market and people can go into or hey, there’s prohibitively high investment minimums across some of these private market funds. What kind of vehicles can exist that an everyday investor who’s maybe not accredited or a QC or he could get in the game? And so it’s what’s taking place in FDI groups that are informing the themes that we’re talking about on the pod, that are also informing what’s taking place on the conference and what have you. And so it’s just I think it helps to kind of call out and point out how this ecosystem in this movement almost feeds itself. And Sam, it’s your team is kind of leading the charge there. So a couple of things I want Sam you to hit on real quickly are some of the key partnerships that have formed and you’ve been encouraged by in 2024 with just other leaders across the movement. Justin’s mentioned some of them, but then also just who’s on your team and servant and kind of building this out in the day to day?

Samantha Couch [00:18:04] Yeah, absolutely. And it was really fun what you hit on real quick. And Nick Bonner, that name just reminded me like a lot of the guests on the podcast are also leaders of these foundation groups, you know, so it’s just it really is such a full circle movement. I love to see that happen. But partnerships over the last year, a couple that have been super fun to step into one would be next. It is so fun to get to know these individual chapter presidents. I had a great time at their impact gathering in Arizona a couple months ago and then just getting to meet people in person who I’ve been talking to for the last two and a half years has been super rewarding. And these chapters are such champions of the Faith Driven Investor movement. I’m a huge fan of everything that they’re doing and so it’s just been great to step into that and like just instead to use some of that language of setting the table, you know, that’s a lot of what we’re working to do is just setting the table and asking and inviting these people to step into this and giving them an opportunity to gather together in person.

Samantha Couch [continued] And these kinds of chapters are a great opportunity to do that. Like you said, Brian de Santo in Austin is such a champion for us and always hosts an amazing watch party. We’ve got some fun things coming up with him later on this year. I have a chapter in my own backyard. I got together with them for coffee last week and so it’s just been a really, really great year of sharpening those relationships and getting to know one another and how we can serve one another better. And then on the heels of that trust, we have a great relationship with the folks over at Blue Trust. And this year they really wanted to step into having all of their advisors go through our our foundation script. So we kicked that off with our staff, leading them kind of like a train, the trainer type of group with 50 of the Blue Trust members stepping into and walking through that content with us. And it was such a great time. It was really good to get to know them better. And then they’ve gone on to lead internally with their team. Some of them have gone on to lead their customers and their clients. We’ve got an incredible course that echoes a lot of what’s in our foundation’s course, but it’s specifically targeted towards couples. And so we’ve had some of them step into that with their clients. It’s just a great tool to be having those deeper conversations together with the people that they’re serving. So that’s been a really good one to step into this year as well.

Justin Forman [00:20:13] You know, one of the things that I think is so encouraging about those partnerships as well as so many others, is that we need to recognize there’s a moment in the movement that’s happened that we’ve figured out some of the plumbing. And what I mean by that is we’ve figured out how to to set up the donor advised fund account and just what that looks like. Well, what I love is hearing the leaders from National Christian Foundation, Blue Trust and so many others there saying it’s as much about that, but it’s about the community around it. And there’s an emphasis of saying we will only go as far. We will only. Be encouraged to use those tools to use those tools more effectively, more deeply, more generously. If we have a good community surrounding us, because the world is going to tell us now, the world is going to say, slow down, stop. Wait a second. Let’s see how this plays out.

Justin Forman [continued] But it’s when you’re surrounded by peers that are seeing how there’s a compounding impact, that if you deploy this capital now, think about the impact that that’s going to have or generations. And so I think what’s fun is you’re seeing in those partnerships a push towards community. And I think that one of the things I just continue to emphasize is we are figuring out ways to partner with people every day. And so if you’re an organization out there that’s hearing this and saying, gosh, how would we do this? We would love to engage with it because we love serving behind the scenes. We love kind of being that backstop to support with the content and the tools for community. But it’s fun to see A growing number of organizations are now saying, okay, this is how we can implement it in it. Because they have that renewed emphasis and purpose on community.

Richard Cunningham [00:21:44] Awesome. And Justin, I think that kind of help sets the stage for where we’re going next on the pod and we’re going to close with some kind of FDI 2025 conference and more things in 2025. But I think there’s kind of three things that I want each of you to tug on a little bit of building out this community further. And those are FDI plus solving the world’s greatest problems. And on that one in particular, Justin, I’ve actually done a couple of recent joint SWGP FDI podcast releases, so the audience has a little bit of an understanding of what this is or solving the world’s greatest problems kind of theme is. And maybe the third one is halftime and what will happen there. And so all kind of seminal moments and seminal kind of cornerstone things inside the movement studies, FDI Plus and halftime. So maybe I’ll let you start and then Justin will go to you to kind of wrap up comments on those three kind of particular initiatives and just big things that are unfolding across the FDI space.

Samantha Couch [00:22:37] Yeah, absolutely. FDI Plus, this has really been born out of all of these conversations we’ve been having with these individuals who come through Foundations group that we were just talking about, who, when I’m having these next steps calls and helping them determine like, what’s the right next step for them? What does that look like? We get a lot of questions about how do I do this? Who do I do it with? And to just this point earlier, this is overwhelming. I don’t even know if I want to look under the hood. I don’t know what’s happening. I’m very intimidated by this. And so there’s just a lot of questions and confusion. And I think a demand really to be able to go deeper and to be able to do this with peers and to get a really deep six weeks is great. It is a great first step. But this is an opportunity to step into this and really go deeper.

And so we’re launching something in January called Faith Driven Investor Plus. And that’s really what this is. It is an opportunity to step into what’s next and to be able to go deeper. And so we’ll start that with what we’re calling our launch weekend. We’re going to do that in 4 to 5 different cities this year. But in January, we’re kicking off in Chapel Hill and we are bringing families together to talk about in that weekend specifically just to gather together and kind of find your people, but also, you know, understanding, solving the world’s greatest problems. So what does that look like for you? How does God break your heart for the kingdom? Where are you called? To give generously but also invest. And when it comes to those causes and those issues and understanding that and like, what does it look like when you start to craft out an investment thesis for your family? What does that look like when you’re having that conversation with your spouse or with your adult children? That is a blessing of this time together. Most people are coming with their significant other with their spouse. We even have some people who are bringing their adult children so they can all be a part of this and then go together for this content. So it starts with an in-person gathering and then we’ll get together monthly afterwards online for about five months as we continue these conversations and kind of this sharpening as we talk more about how do you get in the game. So if you haven’t yet really starting to make those moves forward in order to do that and if you have, how do you go deeper and how do you do that with peers and trusted friends and even an advisory board? And what does that look like?

Justin Forman [00:24:49] You know, I think you said it best, Richard, when we talked about this episode. It’s going to sound like we’re up here pitching and sharing about things. But what we’re really doing is we’re building places that people have asked for to say, okay, how do I find a chance to take the next step in? I think that as fired up as we can get about a podcast or a piece of content, in many ways it’s a stop sign that causes a U-turn to get people to say, The world might be telling me to go this direction, but how do I turn things around? And as you do that, that’s what a foundation course might be. And so over six weeks, you get a chance to really say, man, there’s a there there, there’s a destination to go to. But just because you see a podcast, just because you go through a six week course doesn’t mean you’re going to flip to the other side of the world, flip the portfolio reallocation completely on its head because the world is going to be one of those things is going to tempt you, pull you in different directions, and you need peers and you need people that. Aren’t just wondering if they should, but are convinced that there is a better thing out there and they want to go to the same destination.

And so I think that’s what’s exciting to me about FDI Plus, is this is a group of people that are raising their hand, saying there’s an intentionality that I want to have to make sure that there’s a map and there’s a frame that when we start out for this journey that we’re going to have checkpoints know for on the right track. And that’s what this road map and that’s what this family investment thesis on family investment policy that seems talking about is really all about. And so yeah, it’s been a fun journey for us to have some of these groups. But then people are saying, Hey, what does it look like to do this with fellow travelers that are coming from a similar stage? They have a similar destination in mind. And so we’ve been able to pull in some of the ingredients of kind of the half time process. But really, this one is kind of further down that stage, maybe from some other half time courses and experience and program because it’s about the allocation. It’s about starting to say, Hey, I have some clarity on some family strengths. We have some understanding that we want to dethrone the hold that money might have on our life, but we want to be intentional about our giving and investing with friends, and I love it.

Justin Forman [continued] It was fun to start the invitations all credit to Sam and her team. The way that we were able to do that was this fun boxes that we’re able to send out to people maybe with something between 007 or The Incredibles in terms of these invitations. It didn’t explode after you watched it, but it was a fun way to really say this is a big deal, this is a big deal and a big thing and something’s happening. And we want to say what could happen if we could bring people that aren’t lookers, but they’re intentional about it and saying, what more could we do together? And so in the year ahead, you know, we’ve already got for these gatherings confirmed, I think we’re working on a first. But these are intentional communities and conversations where people through a launch weekend and then through 5 or 6 other monthly gatherings are going to be intentional about discovering peers are in the same direction following that path and getting in the game. And so it was an honor and privilege to invite many friends in the movement that we knew were looking for this had expressed that they were looking for this, But many times we don’t know what God’s doing in your heart. So if you’re in that stage and you’re in that place and something’s provoked news, you’re hearing this and saying, and that might be me, check it out at Faith Driven Investor plus.org and you can be able to learn about what’s happening there and talk to somebody from our team to see if this might be a fit of something to explore because of the types of things that we’re sharing about and connecting people with.

You know, guidelines would say that this has to be a qualified purchaser, somebody stewarding 5 million or more in terms of capital to get in the game. But if you’re at that stage, if you’re at that place, that’s the season and position that God has you in and you’re committed to doing something. We want to make sure that you’re surrounded with like minded peers that can do that. So yeah, it is one of the things we’re most excited about. And you know, to bookend kind of what you said, Richard, the conference that we have coming up here and February 7th, you know, we’re not going to hold any punches back. One of the things that we often talk about Faith Driven Investor investing, you say like, hey, what’s the style? What’s the tone, What’s the way that we’re doing this? And if you’re refining a, you know, an avatar or somebody that was like from a pastoral voice to say, what’s the tone? It’s a Francis Chan David Black kind of tone that says, Hey, time is short. What’s live for the things that matter and what does that look like?

Justin Forman [continued] And so this FDI conference coming up on February 7th and will be happening online or happening also in person, over 100 different watch parties around the world. We’re already seeing just on a path of growth of how that’s growing significantly from where it was last year. And I think that’s just a testament to so many fund managers, advisors, leaders in the movement that are pushing this conversation for it. And we hope it’s a front porch and a chance to gather. We think that kind of the theme, this riskiest thing is to do nothing is really that call to say, you know, it truly is the riskiest thing. When you look at the parable of the talents, it’s pretty clear when you do nothing, when you bury it, that’s not what God’s looking for. He’s looking for us to get around people that are going to push us, encourage us to deploy it, and to do that with intentionality. And so that’s the theme of the event. Some incredible stories. The thing that I love most about this conference is I’m seeing the content come together is this is not a movement in theory anymore. This is born out in reality. This is deeply intertwined in the stories of families and individuals that have looked under the hood, found out how it was canceling out some of their philanthropic efforts, and they said, that’s not enough. We’ve got to change it. We’ve got to look differently at the way that we invest, the way that we give. And so my hope is that this year, particularly people see themselves in the story, that they see somebody that maybe it’s a Susanne Daniels or Alice or whoever it is, and the content that they would see themselves and say, I can do that too. Yeah, it might take a step, might take a first step and my take a little bit of work. But there’s a joy in the journey that I see them on. There’s a life that I want and I want that for me. I want that for my marriage. I want that for my. Family. And I think that it’s just, again, further evidence of what God’s been doing over these last couple of years. So when you see these theories turn into stories. And so really looking forward to that. And we’re so grateful for the work that Sam and her team is doing to serve and support so many of these different watch parties.

Richard Cunningham [00:31:02] Sam, what else would you add to that with the big February 7th event? Some of the themes you’re excited about seeing come to life and maybe help just distinguish like the global FDI event and then kind of the FDI plus offering, because I think we hit on a number of events, but maybe just kind of help real quickly clarify what those are each individually.

Samantha Couch [00:31:18] Yeah. So the conference again is February 7th. And to find out more, you can go to Faith Driven Investor conference.org. But that is a great first step. It is a great like Justin said, it’s a front porch to the movement so you can look to see if there’s a watch party happening in your area. If there’s not and you want to host one, we’d love to talk to you about that. And you can do that or you can stream online and just watch individually. But that is about two and a half, three hours of content that really sets the tone for the year with the Faith Driven Investor movement. But it is a really, really good time to be able, if there is one, in your area, you may not know who else has stepped into the movement in your city. And you can meet new people, you can find peers, you can have people to rustle through these conversations with. And so it’s just a really great first step. The Faith Driven Investor Plus is different than the conference, of course, right? So this is an opportunity to go deeper into those conversations to join us for a launch weekend at one of the 4 to 5 events that we’ll be having this year. And to be able to kind of walk through that journey of what God’s calling you to do and to be able to step into that deeper and have those conversations around people. I think something we’ve said a lot this year is that we can do more together than we can apart, and that is the the blessing of community and finding those people, whether it’s at a watch party for the conference or if you want to go super deep into Faith Driven Investor plus finding those people so you can do more together so you can have those conversations together, have that accountability, have those relationships and those friendships to kind of steward those conversations and that obedience and what God’s calling you into doing.

Richard Cunningham [00:32:51] Good clarification. Thank you. So February 7th, 2025, FDI conference. It is kind of the launch of the new year, if you will. I’m sure we will have speakers on the conference back on the pod and then these FDI plus gatherings. And just that’s a line Justin uses all the time. If you follow him on socials or hear him speak, as the movement goes wider, there is such a necessity to go deeper. And that really is the FDI plus audience in that kind of cup range who can really go out there and do something about what God is putting on their heart. Given the different kind of thresholds and markets they might be able to enter into. I want to kind of hit on this real quickly and we’re going to ask the question we ask at the close of every FDI part, and that is, hey, one theme about 2025 that you just think is paramount to where this movement is headed, whether it’s something that’s going to be pulled on in the conference or just something in particular for FDI, what is one theme in 2025? You’re like, Yeah, I think God’s really going to be doing something in that kind of realm. Justin, I’ll start with you.

Justin Forman [00:33:49] Action. It’s all about action. You know, I think that it’s funny, so many things in life that you can kind of be, you know, firefighter aim. I think sometimes in the Christian world, in the space, which sometimes we can. Amy may, may, may, may, may, may never fire. And what excites me is I think we’re getting to a place in a season where people have taken aim, their hearts are calibrated, something’s changing and they’re ready to take action. And so when I think about that, there’s just a virtuous cycle that just one feeds the other. And when you act, it just changes your heart in that way. And so I love that virtuous cycle. And I think that that word action really embodies where I think the stage, the Faith Driven Investor movement is right now.

Richard Cunningham [00:34:35] Spoken like a guy who started an organization called Faith Driven Entrepreneur happens to meet a number of businesses himself. Something about action and Justin Foreman saying, What would you say?

Samantha Couch [00:34:45] He stole My answer. I’ll go a little bit different, which is activation, right? That is, I think, what is happening now. And because we know wealth isolates and fear paralyzes and so faith produces action. And so being able to set the table and inviting people into this, to give them the opportunity to take action or to start thinking about that, that’s what I’m seeing right now. And my big hopes and dreams for the year ahead is activation.

Richard Cunningham [00:35:11] Come on. All right. Well, you guys get the privilege of answering this for the final time of 2020 for what is God been teaching you and and through his word lately. Sam, let’s go to you, and then Justin will finish with you.

Samantha Couch [00:35:22] Yeah. The word that keeps coming to mind when I think about this and just the prayers that have had in the quiet time of God has been obedience. You know, we know that resistance doesn’t mean that you aren’t going in the right direction. You know, we are prepared for resistance, right? Because often we don’t know. It hangs in the balance. And so it’s these steps of obedience along the way that gets you into, you know, what God has in store for you. And so many times we’re battling resistance or hard and God’s just pruning us into something really, really beautiful that’s just on the other side. It’s hard to see sometimes. So for me, it’s just kind of been meditating on this word of obedience. I’m really leaning into that relationship with God. You know, I heard something not too long ago that the rabbis, when they were teaching the 14 or 15 year olds and they called them to follow them, you know, the saying was like, go be covered in the dust of your rabbi. And so that is so beautiful to me. And I want to be walking so closely in obedience with the Lord that I’m just covered in his dust. And so that’s where I am right now. That’s what he’s telling me.

Justin Forman [00:36:29] That’s hard to follow, but it’s beautiful to see that. And I think that that speaks to a lot of the journey that we’ve been on as a ministry. But I think maybe I’ll use a cheat code here and maybe not a particular verse, but I’ll maybe just kind of a theme. I think that oftentimes the home that I grew up in, it was really about the father, the son, and then this other retired guy. And I think it has just been a journey and a joy and like a childlike wonder these last ten years to see the Holy Spirit work. And this sounds silly, but I think some people who are listening will relate to it when you’re looking for it. You see the Holy Spirit in an email. You see it in a text. You see it in conversation. You see it in a closed door. You see it in an open door. You see it in a frustrating conversation. You see it everywhere. And I think pausing to see the thing behind the thing is just that season that I’m in, but celebrating it with this, like, childlike wonder is been a fun, fun thing for me. So when I say, what is God speaking, it’s I think he’s speaking in a way that again, for many years of my life it was historical and it was factual, but now it’s real. And watching the little things and that’s just been a childlike wonder. Maybe as we think about this Christmas in the holiday season, we talk about that childlike wonder at this time of year that’s been amplified for me to see the childlike wonder how he works, things that are unexpected.

Richard Cunningham [00:37:52] Samantha Couch and Faith Driven Investor Justin Foreman, of all the faith driven movements, but very much involved and tapped in to what’s going on at Faith Driven Investor. Thank you guys for joining us today. Thank you for what you’re doing to build out a movement that myself and so many others here listening are beneficiaries of. Friends, Merry Christmas. Hope you have a wonderful closed year 2024 start to 2025. And thank you again. We’ll get you next time.

Speaker 5 [00:38:17] We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see listeners come in for more than 100 countries. Faith Driven Investor. It can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter and faith driven investing Dawg. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive Producer Justin Foreman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Drags Audio and Editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.

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Join us for our first episode of 2025 as renowned investor David Bahnsen shares his insights on market valuations, economic trends, and policy implications of the upcoming Trump administration. Bahnsen, who manages $6 billion in client assets, discusses why the S&P’s high valuations may signal caution while highlighting promising opportunities in private markets. Alongside John Coleman, they explore everything from Japanese foreign investment to reflections on the dignity of work and Christian perspectives on purpose.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ, following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 Hey everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to what is the first Faith Driven Investor podcast of 2025. Happy New Year. Hope that you and your family and loved ones had a phenomenal Christmas celebration and wishing you just a number of blessings in 2025.

We are kicking off the SDI podcast in style here today as we’ve got a very special guest, David Johnson, who we will introduce momentarily. And we’re doing a mark’s on the markets. And so joined as always remarks on the markets episodes as the one and only John Coleman. John, great to have you in the podcast studio. And before we introduce our special guest man. How are the Christmas and New Year holidays and everything like that?

John Coleman It is awesome. Richard. We get to stay local for the most part because we got family around Atlanta. Great time with the kids.

Sovereign’s adopted the practice of shutting down the whole firm between Christmas and New Year’s. A couple of years ago, which makes sure none of us are bothering each other too much during that time for a faith driven firm. Obviously that’s a very special time of year. And so I think we’re all refreshed and headed in New Year. Excited for what’s next.

 

Richard Cunningham Awesome, man. Well, folks, I mentioned it. We are starting off the FDA podcast right here in 2025 today As a marks on the Markets episode, we’re joined by someone who just lives and breathes the markets. It’s David Johnson, who is the founder managing partner and chief investment officer of the Johnson Group, a firm that oversees $6 billion in client assets.

He’s coming to us today from New York. He splits time between New York and sunny Newport Beach, California. In addition to the Johnson Group, he is often a guest on CNBC, Bloomberg, Fox News and Fox Business. He’s the author of several bestselling books, including his recent one from 2024. David Full Time Work in The Meaning of Life, released in February.

Just a storied career. Someone who’s been in the markets, knows the markets extremely well, is a committed, devoted believer. A family man loves USC football, a husband to Jolene and father, to Mitchell, Sadie and Graham. So, David, what a privilege to have you on, just a guest of your stature. Grateful to be talking markets with you and John Day.

David Bahnsen Well, thanks so much for all the kind words and thank you for getting those priorities right with Jolene and the kids in USC football all on an equal footing. So, yeah.

Richard Cunningham That is awesome. Well, we’re glad to have you here, David. Maybe one highlight from you all is Christmas break.

David Bahnsen You know, we went to a ski resort in Vermont with our whole family. My oldest is off in college now, and he spent the whole semester studying abroad in Europe. And so we had not been all together as a family since the summer and getting a week away, skiing and enjoying a very cold, white Christmas and just that kind of family time. It was really quite lovely. That was definitely the highlight of my Christmas break.

Richard Cunningham And good for you guys. That’s fantastic. Vermont in the snow. Well, guys, we’re talking markets today. And I think before we start looking forward to 20, 25, 2024, it’s pretty wild, to say the least.

So now you both have a number of just pieces out there and kind of commentary out there. But maybe let’s have both of you just kind of highlight what you believe are kind of the seminal moments, whether it be in the markets, economy, political landscape, and let’s spend some time there just kind of camping out in 2024 as it sets the foundation for where we are today.

David Bahnsen Well, in terms of the highlights of 24, it’s very interesting that a lot of people are going to focus on the election last year and the political moment, which I make a point in White paper I’ve just published, kind of summarizing the year behind and projecting a lot of things for the year forward. It’s our Dividend cafe.com. It’s a free paper that I’ve done every year for a long, long time.

I make the point that the election may have been one of the largest news stories of the year and obviously the largest political, but it’s hard for me to justify it even being in the top five as a market story that you had a year in which corporate profits met and exceeded expectations, which were frankly quite lofty.

You had a year in which forward guidance on corporate profits into next year, which is really what markets always trade on. Markets don’t trade on the profits that just were they trade on the profits we expect to be because markets are forward looking what we call discounting mechanisms that expectations for profit growth next year is very strong.

You did have a Federal Reserve that began to cut rates. But I want to point out people say, well, the Fed really goosed markets by cutting rates in September. We started off the year believing that there was going to be eight rate cuts beginning in March. By September, markets were up thousands of points and they hadn’t cut at all. And so the Fed was not even really driving of markets.

You more or less had the narrative and that the tightening of 2022 was going to lead to recession. It didn’t happen in 23. Markets went up a lot. The job. The environment was mostly very constructive and 20 for wage growth was mostly very constructive. That’s not to say there aren’t pockets of issues within the economy, but those who were worried about something worse in the economy, it didn’t materialize.

So markets had to reprice in a little bit more sanguine environment for the macro economy. Then you add that with the end of Fed tightening, so to speak, and a very robust corporate profit environment. So do I think markets are at a high valuation? Very much so. Do I think there’s frothiness in the market? Absolutely.

And do I think there’s some questions about whether or not a lot of what people hope will happen in 25. Myself included around Trump 2.0 deregulation, tax reform, energy policy, all of those things I think should be constructive, but they’re not going to happen easily. There’s going to be some volatility around, you know, getting all this executed. So that’s kind of our high level position on where markets are in 24 and going into 25.

John Coleman Yeah, I would tend to agree with David on a number of fronts. You know, if I move through the public markets, the story has been this just massive increase in the price of the Magnificent Seven and the concentration of the index amongst some of the largest growth oriented technology stocks in the world has been noted a lot of places.

It’s the biggest gap between the equal weight and asset weight. Russell 3000 since the.com burst although I’ll circle back I think is structurally different. And those are really solid companies even if their valuations might be a bit lofty at the moment, unlike the.com burst, that obviously creates a number of dynamics in markets.

There’s if you look at the subset of public markets, small cap mid-cap stocks are actually a bit undervalued potentially right now on a historical basis because there’s been this large cap run for 8 or 9 years now that’s been kind of a bull run in that sector driven by these growth oriented technology stocks. And so there are pockets of value opportunity within that.

But there’s such concentration in the asset weighted indexes today on a few of these massive flight to quality growth technology stocks that I think understanding the future trajectory of those and how investors will react to those even in the way they treat indexes in their portfolios in public markets is a huge part of the story.

And underlying that I think is a fundamental change in the US economy that I think is partially legitimate and that we have a series of new technologies right now that, you know, every 2 or 3 years we project there’s something as big as the Internet, right? Like blockchain was supposed to be that.

I think fundamentally, though, artificial intelligence, autonomy, robotics actually are step change technologies that can reroute the fundamental economy of the US, which is why you’re seeing some of these market consolidation movements that are worth talking about. We’ll see that materialize over the course of the next 3 to 5 years.

And then in private markets, what’s been interesting is just there was this collapse for a period of time in valuations in private markets, a complete freeze up of those in kind of 21 and 22. Those markets have come back, particularly venture markets, but distributions still have not materialized.

Right. And so it’s still a little bit sluggish on the private market side because distributions from old funds and investments have not yet materialized. So institutional investors are waiting to re-up into those strategies until they get distributions, which has cause continued sluggishness.

I think that will change in this coming year, which we can talk about why, with Lina Khan leaving the FTC with distributions just coming forward as the economy has improved with people trimming their public markets positions, there are a lot of dynamics at play, but I think those are defining.

And then in terms of the fundamental economy, which David touched on when we entered last year, we were still talking harder, soft landing from inflation and whether we could navigate that. It feels to me as if we’ve navigated some form of a soft landing, although there’s still some debate about what that actually means.

And the Fed did reduce rates, but less than expected. And the bond markets haven’t reflected that. Right. If you look at the way that most people get debt right now, the rates and debt markets, whether that be mortgages or corporate debt, have remained kind of stubbornly high versus some of the decreases in rates that the Fed has enacted, which means that the underlying economy is kind of rejecting, at least in certain areas, this decline in interest rates in a high interest rate environment has persisted in certain areas of lending, which obviously impacts homeowners, people running businesses, big corporations, even more in some ways than the Fed funds rate. Right.

And so that disconnect between those two areas of the market, I think is a really interesting story headed into this year. Like, why is that the case? Will that cause some some sluggishness in the business sector, in the housing sector, or do we start to see those things more converge in a more typical way over the course of the next year or so?

Those were some of the big stories to me in 24. I mean, the Trump election obviously is a huge topic. The global ramifications of what might happen in Canada and parts of Europe have huge positive. Implications, like David said, for deregulation, for business growth, for innovation, for mergers and acquisitions. But I do feel that that’s more a 25 discussion than a 24 discussion in terms of its impact on the economy.

Richard Cunningham Well, guys, great recap. I think we covered a lot of ground there. And David, you teased out a little bit your annual kind of year behind your head white paper that you put out, the Dividend Cafe, which is just massive fan of the Dividend Cafe and your weekly writing on Fridays.

Let’s look at that. Your head kind of sentiment and outlook. You know, would you say optimism, caution or where do you kind of fall on the spectrum? You guys hit on a lot of different topics and kind of macro and economic environment, even kind of political environments. What is your general kind of take and why is that looking forward?

David Bahnsen You know, it really is a mixed bag that there are some components in which I have a very constructive view and I think John will appreciate something I want to share here in a moment about private markets. And then there are areas of caution and concern.

And the easiest part is to cover that. The caution and concern is that an S&P 500 is trading at 23 times earnings and it’s averaged about 16 to 17 times earnings for 20, 30, 40 years. So you’re a couple standard deviations ahead of your average valuation.

But it’s really not just that, because I accept that the last time we were into the mid 20s of a valuation, that the quality of the companies was much less. If you go back to 1999 and 2000 before the.com implosion. I think that’s very true. But the top ten companies in the market then were about 20% of the market. They’re now 40% of the market, 38.6%, to be precise.

So really, people need to understand that the S&P 500 is 60%, the S&P for 90 and 40%, the S&P ten, and that the yield that the S&P is paying them is 1.1%. It was 2.8% 25 years ago. The price to book ratio, which is not the best metric, a valuation price to earnings because stocks are and should be valued off of profits. But the price to book value is the highest it’s ever been in history.

And so you not only have expensive market and yet with some good companies at the top, but those good companies are valued above perfection. And so I think what that does is it skews the risk reward. Can everything go perfectly for another year? Maybe. I don’t believe that’s likely.

I think at some point in time, and I just wouldn’t dare to offer a timing around this, there are some quarters coming. We’re in Video announces Microsoft ordered a lot less from us this quarter than we thought. And both Microsoft and Nvidia have a day that people are not going to believe and bring down Nasdaq in a way people are not going to believe. I think that’s inevitable, but it’s not really the focus of my concern going into 25 long term.

My concern is always that we have a society that is dealing with excessive government indebtedness and that there’s been too much crowding out of the private sector from a very high debt to GDP ratio and no political will or public will to do anything about it from an investment standpoint within that.

I do think there are sectors that are not overvalued. I do think there are companies that are not overvalued. And this is the part I was referencing earlier that I think John might appreciate from some of his earlier comments. I have a chart in my aforementioned year behind year ahead paper the ratio of private equity exits to investments, the ratio between how many companies are being sold to how many are newly being invested in has collapsed to a level we’ve never seen.

It’s down about half from where it was ten years ago. There is a big need not for new purchases, but for new sales companies that, by the way, have performed. These are not distressed companies or traumatic exits. These would be rewarding exits. But there’s just a ton of dry powder that is built up that they cannot deploy because there’s still a lot of companies they have not been able to sell companies for and return money to the limited partners.

So private markets, corporate transactions, I think that the Trump administration would be successful in some needed financial market deregulation. The FTC will be less cumbersome about approving M&A. The interest rate environment will be somewhat more favorable than it’s been, and the fundamentals are necessary in both public and private markets for a lot of corporate activity that should drive efficiency, it should drive returns to private markets and it should ultimately move capital, which then allows for new investment and ultimately greater opportunity.

John Coleman If I could just pick up on that last point, I couldn’t agree more with David’s comments in the private markets. So I’ll start by saying I think the fundamental economy in the U.S. is actually positioned for a decent year in 25.

I have David’s mid to long term concerns about indebtedness of the country and the way that that impacts us. But I think from a 2025 perspective, the underlying economy to me is looking strong and I think some of the deregulatory impact of the Trump administration certainty around taxes from any new election, etc., is likely to lead to stronger underlying performance in the real economy in the United States. I somewhat bullish on that.

I think the way that might work out in private markets, which David was just touching on, is one of the great things about the lack of distributions and some of the disruption in private markets over the last few years is it has created a lot of pent up activity that has to happen at some point. And I think 25 might be that point and it’s washed out a lot of the poorer managers.

So there is a stat I saw recently that fund one to fund two venture firms, typically 50% survive. The last two years it’s been 15%, basically. Many funds have not reached their target fund raises. And so the higher quality managers in private equity and venture in real estate are still surviving. But many of the lower quality managers are washing out, which I think could be good for creating constructive transactions in that space, particularly if M&A from public companies opens up more under the new FTC and some of these venture backed companies can begin going public, joining larger firms and, you know, the Googles, Microsoft, Apples of the World, they’ve got a ton of cash.

They’ve got really good currency in their public market prices right now. It should be a great acquisition environment for them if they can get past the regulatory hurdles of that. It’s my perspective. The public market implication is that I do think, David, I’d be interested in your take. It could be a tale of two markets. I like your S&P ten versus S&P for 90.

You know, if you look at the small cap and mid-cap markets, they’re actually trading below or about at the long term valuations of the public markets. But there’s always a flight to quality when there’s economic uncertainty. And so we feel more settled this year. What I think could happen is some reversion to more typical valuations between that top 10 or 30 stocks and the bottom, you know, 2970 stocks where we see those mid-cap and small cap gain a bit and get more confidence.

And we do see a retraction, not in a dot.com way, but in a return to some more reasonable level that bakes in some margin for error amongst the most powerful growth stocks in the world. That will have a huge impact on the index overall. But for an investor who’s positioning their portfolio smartly, there are easy ways to mitigate that impact.

I mean, it’s simple. Sometimes it’s going equal weight rather than asset weight or as simple as, you know, increasing your exposure to value stocks or to things in the small amid timing is always super difficult. David, as you noted, if you’d made that call a year ago, you would have gotten pummeled in the markets. But it does feel with the current valuation disconnects, inevitable that at some point that gap will normalize some even if those growth equity stocks at the top right now are higher quality than they used to be. At least that’s kind of the way I see the coming market correction.

David Bahnsen Yeah. You know, John, it’s funny, you bring up two points in there that are a little bit different from one another, but overlap. And I think both of them are important. It’s the big cap versus small cap delta that has materialized and the growth versus value. And they’re not one in the same. There are two different stories.

Listen to these statistics because they’re just fascinating to me. Over ten years, the Russell 2000 is only up 7.7% per year. The S&P is up 13.5, almost doubling. But listen to this. Just over the last four years since Covid, the Russell is only up 3.9. The S&P is up 13.4, a 10% per year difference between big cap and small cap.

Now, to John’s point, it’s one I reiterate. Timing of this has been very difficult. And keep in mind when we say, well, you could have got pummeled if you did last year, you still would have been up. It’s just you would have had a big opportunity cost. You know, value is up. Last year, small cap was up, even weight was up. It just wasn’t up as much as market cap weight.

But it is a way to maybe mitigate risk. Now, look at my firm. I happen to know this about John’s firm. We’re not index investors, and so I don’t have a dog in the hunt about even weight versus cap weight. But if I did, I would very much be leaning into even weight right now versus cap weight.

I think it’s a great way to play a broadening out of the market and get more exposure to laggards, health care, consumer staples, energy, real estate that are very likely on a relative basis going to do differently. Heard the communication services, technology and even consumer discretionary that have done so well the last couple of years.

So those are very good meta narratives around where the market stands. That it makes it different. You hear this theme from both the comments I’ve made and John has made. We’re not really talking about do you want to be invested or not invested? We’re not really having one of those kinds of years or one of those kinds of conversations. It’s not risk on versus risk off. It’s what types of risks are most prudent right now.

And I think people believing that in video will go from a $3.5 trillion market cap to a $4.5 trillion market cap. You know, keep in mind, from video to be up another 20%, not another 160%, another 20%. It has to go up next year alone more than the entire value of the rest of the market, besides about five companies. Okay. That’s just what you’re dealing with when these companies are now worth 3 to $4 trillion. 20% of 3.5 trillion is $700 billion. Is Nvidia going to go up in one year after being up 1,200% in the last few years? Is it going to go up in one year? The amount of Tesla’s entire market cap. But that’s what most investors are invested to.

John Coleman And what’s important to what David said is you can still believe in very as a great company with fundamental transformational technology and also believe that that’s a difficult narrative for its future valuation. Right. Which is what’s different than.com. A lot of those were kind of empty shell companies at that time. You know, Microsoft, Nvidia, Apple seem to be solid, really good companies. That doesn’t mean their valuation is reflective of an appropriate level right now.

David Bahnsen I agree 100%. But it’s funny people mention that a lot because it’s so true that the cash flow generation was so subpar in 1999 compared to where it is now. However, Amazon went from 400 to 6.

John Coleman That’s true.

David Bahnsen But before it, you know, ended up storming back. So there’s nothing that says Nvidia won’t be a huge success story in ten years with a few very difficult years along the way. But I try to reiterate that point John made all the time. I’m not saying anything bad about Apple, Google, Metta or Nvidia, I’m merely just talking about valuation.

And I believe most of us, those that are now 50 year old professional investment advisors, are byproducts of lessons we learned in our 20s and 30s and in the late 90s when I was coming of age as a professional investor, I watched Intel, Cisco, Microsoft give up 15 years of return by being so bought at such an excessive valuation. But they never had a negative year in earnings. They never had a bad operating performance. They were just so overpriced.

In 1999, Microsoft didn’t get back to its pre 2000 high till 2016. Cisco still hasn’t got back to it and they’ve grown earnings every single year since. So valuation matters.

Richard Cunningham Well, man, this is good. I’m enjoying this a lot. And one of the things you both have hit on as we think about this kind of so recording this podcast on January 8th, it’ll release around Monday the 13th, the following Monday, the 20th, we have a changing a guard and Donald Trump will be inaugurated.

And one of the things you both have hit on is just kind of the Trump administration’s mandate to take off some of the handcuffs and the guardrails around M&A activity we’ve talked about just all that is possible, what could take place. Everyone, of course, sees the headlines of what’s taking place with doge and more efficiency in the government and slashing away at that deficit, the massive government kind of just debt spiral we’re in.

And David, you’re a very transparent individual. You never shy away from calling yourself a lifetime movement conservative, a proud Reagan supporter of the 80s, a permanent leader of the National Review. But you’ve also been pretty critical of Trump in that this recent Nippon Steel situation where Japanese company Nippon Steel wants to acquire U.S. Steel. Biden has raised his hand to block the transaction. Trump has actually showed support of that same blocking the transaction.

So that doesn’t kind of showcase what you guys were alluding to with just the lack of regulation, hopefully to come in 2025. So as you think about the new guard and everything that’s going to come with kind of the new Trump administration, I mean, the mandate he received in the election. What’s kind of the overall outlook there?

David Bahnsen There’s a part of me that paradoxically, I hope people can take this the right way. I hope he has been lying to us about his opposition to the Nippon Steel deal, because I would be more favorable to him having to politic around the issue than I would the inconsistency in the policy.

He did a press conference a couple weeks ago and I was very fond of most of the things he said where he was bragging about SoftBank wanting to put in $100 billion of foreign direct investment in the primary equity deals the United States. And he joked, I’m going to try to upsell them to 200 billion. Where is SoftBank located? Japan.

Japan has over 800 billion, a direct investment in United States, including a company called Nippon Steel that currently has factories in Kentucky, Indiana, West Virginia, Louisiana. Some of those have been there for over 25 years. We just got done selling $3.5 billion of missiles to Japan. I don’t believe anybody can take this national security argument seriously.

I understand the politics. I understand the cosmetics around union bosses. But union workers want this deal to happen. Blue collar union workers in Pennsylvania are going to lose their job if this deal doesn’t happen. They’ve offered $15 billion for U.S. steel since the Biden administration blocked it. The company’s trading in 7.4 billion. This is not a material deal to the U.S. economy. 7 billion these days as a small cap company.

And so there’s one entity that benefits from this deal not happening. China. China steelmakers are over 50% of global steel production. They flood the world with steel. There are legitimate adversary to the United States, a legitimate opponent to the values of our country. Those are actual state owned enterprises. Nippon Steel is a private company in Japan. It is not part of the Japanese government. Japan is an ally of the United States.

When I was a managing director at Morgan Stanley, we took $9 billion from Mitsubishi to save Morgan Stanley with the Treasury Department and State Department begging them to do the deal. Do we want foreign direct investment or not? We have 1 million jobs that have been created because of Japanese foreign direct investment.

So I think your greater point is, are we really looking at a deregulatory apparatus in the Trump administration? And I’m optimistic about it. I think that that was one of the great underrated things that they did in his prior term. And I think philosophically and most of the personnel he’s surrounded himself with in this transition are largely pretty Reaganite about deregulation, tax reform, energy policy. But on this Nippon Steel deal, I’m just mystified. Other than the cosmetics of not wanting to look like you’re contradicting union bosses. But that’s not good enough for me.

John Coleman Yeah. And I would say, as I look at the potential policy implications of the Trump administration this year, and I’ll just comment on the economic impacts of this, maybe I’ll say a word about the social impacts or why you might do this otherwise. But deregulation would obviously be positive for the economy, particularly if deregulation allows greater innovation that allows greater dynamism in the capital markets, that allows easier business formation, etc.. Those are always stimulatory for the economy.

If the Trump administration follows through on keeping taxes where they are, or potentially selectively reducing those in certain areas, that tends to be very stimulating for the economy. If they can really then apart from the regulation reform, the size and scope of the federal government as a component of that, I think that’s a bigger question mark That buzzsaw is difficult to encounter. Right. But if they could do that, I actually think that would receive a positive response from markets.

I think immigration is a separate issue that’s being done for other reasons. The kind of idea of closing the border, enforcing legal immigration has a broader set of social consequences. The market impacts are likely to be somewhat mixed of that. But I think that’s not really the primary reason that people are arguing for that. And it’s dominantly in national security, in a national autonomy point of view, which I think is a very valid set of reasons to have that immigration discussion.

And then the fear I would have, as David notes, I do think what Trump has is an intuition about using trade policy and the tools of national policy to assure that the United States competes on equal footing and ensures its national interests with its partners around the world. I do know that there’s a great deal of concern here in Europe and other places that if that were to go too far, that could actually be quite disruptive of the global economic system.

Like if we get back into a series of trade wars, you know, higher tariffs and countries around the world, that certainly has a set of negative consequences both in the United States and abroad. What I don’t know, David, and I think you’re hinting at this, is how much of that are him using a set of policy tools to achieve a different set of objectives that he has? And how much of that is a real ideological commitment to increasing tariffs, to restricting trade in a more dramatic way, apart from real national security stuff like pharmaceutical supply lines?

Chipmaking. There are some areas I think we’re all aware now. We have a national security interest and a national interest in assuring we have domestic capabilities on those or allied capabilities on those, rather than some of our foreign adversaries dominating those. But, you know, the nuts and bolts tariffs and trade stuff is where if it went too far, it could cause a significant disruption, I think, to our economy and the global economy, which David was was outlining.

David Bahnsen I agree so much that it makes me more upset when they use national security as a pretense for not doing a deal illegitimately because it undermines the credibility when there’s a legitimate. National security interest, supply chains on national defense, pharmaceuticals, some of the areas you bring up. I think it’s really important for markets that we have credibility here. And when there is a disingenuous argument that’s made, it undermines the credibility of a more serious and constructive argument that needs to be made.

Tariffs are a big part of my annual white paper because it’s a very tricky thing for anyone with a view of markets to understand right now, because the president has been so effective in the past using it as a negotiating tactic, and it’s difficult to separate ideology from tactics. And so sometimes I wonder if I’m giving him too much benefit of the doubt. And sometimes I wonder if I’m not giving him enough.

I got to say, most of his rhetoric since the election has not been very protectionist or trade restrictive. It’s especially with Canada and Mexico focused on domestic policy objectives crime, drugs, border security, immigration cooperation. And so if he’s going to threaten tariffs, they’re to extract better domestic policy outcomes with allies, neighboring nations. That’s not going to be market impactful. Markets might even like it to the extent that he says things at times like tariffs are going to raise a bunch of revenue.

I just have to hope he doesn’t really believe it. Obviously, tariffs are a cost. They’re paid by American importers and and there’s a cost to it. And it sometimes may fill another policy objective. But, you know, all things being equal, I always say, do we want more trade or less trade? And when people say, well, I don’t know, it depends. I say, well, not if you understand what I mean.

Because all I mean by trade is a buyer and seller voluntarily doing something. And how could the answer ever be that we want less of it? If it’s two people voluntarily doing it, they must have a reason they want to do it. They get deemed to be in their own best interest. And so much of what we import from other countries are unfinished, unprocessed goods that play a part in our own manufacturing of an eventual finished product. And it really does have a big impact on other elements of the American economy.

But again, very candidly, the Trump administration, I think, knows a lot of this. And I am reasonably optimistic that connected to energy policy objectives and tax policy objectives. I think it will be a net constructive part of 2025.

John Coleman The one other brief comment I’d make, Richard, since we haven’t touched on it and I know you want to move on to the next question is another big pillar of the Trump administration that I think could be good for global markets. A little less impactful on U.S. markets is if he actually is able to end the wars in the Middle East and Ukraine.

Obviously, there’s a whole human component to that that obviously outweighs any economic component. So I’m not trying to diminish that or overlook that in any way. But I think a settled global security system where Russia is not actively at war in Ukraine, where the Middle East is more stabilized, would likely be a boon, especially for international markets in Europe. And I think we certainly have a period of time where there seems to be a better chance of those getting settled in a constructive way in the next 5 or 6 months than we’ve had over the last 12 months, so to speak. And I think that if they were settled on the right terms, that that would be a benefit to global markets in addition to the humanitarian benefits, etc., that that would bring.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I’m glad you brought that up, John. And one other thing, John, I specifically want to ask you about and then David, we’re going to hit on some of your writing from last year as well, because I think there are good things to zoom on and they dovetail into this conversation as John, over kind of the Christmas holidays. You put out a Fox News piece on Pax Americana and just great piece. And I think it’d be worth just kind of given a little 62nd flyover of the thesis and there because so much of that parlays into this conversation we’re having right now about kind of Trump’s next presidency.

John Coleman Yeah. So I’m an American and an American optimist, which is sometimes in short supply these days. And the piece so Pax Americana is a Latin phrase. It’s kind of derived. There was this period called Pax Romana a couple of thousand years ago where under the Roman Empire there was this 200 year period of relative stability. I mean, this is we’re talking about the ancient world. So relative stability under Roman rule, basically under the stability that Rome created.

People have used that phrase Pax, et cetera, to describe various areas of peace. And what we’re in now is year 80. This year, since the end of 1945 of Pax Americana, which is basically the era of peace and stability and global prosperity brought about by the American world order. Post-World War two. After the Nazis were defeated, Imperial Japan was defeated. The Cold War erupted, but the Soviet Union was kept at bay. Communist China was kept at bay.

John Coleman (continued) And there was this just historic rise in prosperity, rising global safety. Rise in free trade, in global travel that persists to this day. It’s the most prosperous, peaceful period in the history of the world right now. Right. And that’s happened under the American security umbrella, an American economic umbrella for 80 years.

People have been commenting on the end of that for some time. And my article argued that actually I personally think the Pax Americana could persist for the rest of this century, that we are underestimating the possibility that this is a continued American century. And the data is there to give you confidence that this American security umbrella and economic umbrella could extend for quite some time.

America is not quite as powerful as it was in the 50s, right after World War Two. We were 50% of world GDP, 80% of the world’s hard currency. But today we’re 4% of global population, 26% of GDP. GDP per capita in Mississippi and Arkansas is greater than almost every country in Europe except for Switzerland. Some of the Nordics, which have oil and gas reserves, Monaco, Japan, cheap per capita, I think is on the order of $30,000. That would be by far the poorest American state.

American strength is incredibly high economically on a relative basis. We’re still the most innovative country in the world by far. If you look at things like artificial intelligence, every dominant firm in artificial intelligence is American based. A lot of the robotics firms are a lot of the biotechnology firms are a lot of the autonomy firms are. We are blessed in that American companies are really dominating the innovation landscape, space travel, etc..

And we still have the strongest military in the history of the world, right? There are adversaries now who have greater equality with us than they have in the past. But I also believe that while America is strong and continuing to accelerate some of those adversaries, it’s easy to overestimate.

I mean, China is set to decline its population by more than 50% by the end of this century because of the inhumane implications of the one child policy that they implemented. There’s weakness in their economy. Their fundamental economy is slowed. And for those of us who believe in the fundamental operating system of representative government and democracy, we also know that restricting people’s political and economic freedoms in the way that communist countries do historically leads them to decline and to collapse. Right.

And so the piece was really about us having optimism in this operating system of representative government that America and its allies operate under. And the idea that America is not peaked, that we aren’t out of the Pax Americana, but that that can actually I think it’s better than likely that that persists in an unexpected way over the next couple of decades.

If we can avoid some of the big existential problems in our own economy like debt, which is certainly a concern, but I think that the chess pieces are there for us to continue to prosper. If we can be responsible with our government and lean into the dynamism that’s created this era of American peace to begin with.

Richard Cunningham Funny who you talk about, John. Just love the sense of optimism and parlays nicely into David. Going over to you to talk about your book that you released last year, full time work in the Meaning of Life. So as we drive this conversation kind of towards a close, I think this will kind of help all of us step back and have that more kind of redemptive eternal world view, if you will. So I want to give you a moment there, and then we’ll go to our final question, gents.

David Bahnsen Yeah, hopefully the underlying premise of the book and the reason that I felt the need to write it can tie into an optimistic conclusion, because there’s times in which I feel that I’ve become very pessimistic about a declining work ethic in American society, both as a man of faith who feels sometimes very discouraged by the church’s teaching and messaging around this subject, and then even the underlying kind of American ethos and DNA that is really rooted in something very pro-industry and pro labor, pro entrepreneurial activity, pro risk taking, that does seem at times to be altering in terms of its overall view of work.

The book is making an argument that God made us from the Garden of Eden to be productive, to be creative, to be innovative. And that part of our status as image bearers of God is that we are to take the raw materials of creation that He made and even that we cannot make out of nothing as he can. We are to make out of something that something being his creation.

We are to go be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and cultivate it. And this was all said before sin entered the world. So we talk so much about work being a curse instead of understanding that work was a blessing that was made by God as basically the very thing that he was making us to do. And then because of sin, it was tainted with the curse of toil. Sweat of the brow. But nevertheless, the work itself was never presented as the curse.

I look around at our society now, and I believe the most contented people, the those that have the most fulfilling lives, they generally wake up every day with a particular purpose. I believe people achieve the maximum flourishing in their life when they’re living in obedient communion with their creator. But I believe that even apart from other things that can really enhance our quality of life loving marriage, healthy children, an active social life and community with other friends, these are all vitally important for the good life.

But a purpose in waking up every day have something to do and buy something to do. I do not mean those things that are purely recreational and consumptive, but rather that are productive. I think these things are existentially important to the human person. And I very much want to see the church get back to this message.

And I want to see America not abandon this message because, you know, he was referring to China’s declining birth rates. We’ve seen what’s happened in Japan, countries that end up having a declining view of family, end up having a declining view of work. And that becomes a negative feedback loop that you can’t get out of. It is fatal for a society.

So the solution to America’s problems of despair, of hopelessness, oftentimes substance abuse. The solution is purpose in working productive activity. And this is a message I care a great deal about. And I’ve been very encouraged by the response to the book and hopeful that that message will continue to get out there.

Richard Cunningham And that’s a good one. Well, hey, guys, I know we just got a ton of wisdom right there. But I do think it’s worth just as we kind of start off the new year, 2025, just fun to hear about what God’s been teaching you in his Word lately. What you’re thinking about as we take on a new year. And we’ll be quick here. But John, go ahead.

John Coleman Yeah, I actually spent the holiday. I had one other piece come out over the holidays about Jesus because I was reflecting on that a lot over Christmas and it compared Jesus and Emperor Augustus Octavian, who lived at the same time. And it was such an interesting contrast for me to reflect that two of the greatest, you know, 5 or 10 people in history, you know, lived at that same time and were such opposite characters.

Augustus or Octavian was arguably the greatest political leader in history. And that doesn’t mean necessarily he did everything I would want to or he was. People may confuse that. But I mean, the man created the Roman Empire that lasted for hundreds of years. He consolidated power in Rome. He set off this period of time that was the most peaceful in the ancient world. And he did so through his political skill. But he was also ruthless. He was focused on power. He was focused on consolidating, that he was violent.

And then at the same time, you know, any historian of that time would have said, gosh, Augustus, his name is going to reign through history. And what was so fascinating to me is for the average person in the world right now, Augustus, his name is a footnote in a passage about the actual best known person in the world. Right. That in the midst of this incredible political power and consolidation, there was this fragile, tiny baby born in a barn who nobody would have picked out at that time and wouldn’t have picked out for hundreds of years on a global basis other than those who knew him as truly the most influential person ever born. And something more than that for those of us who are believers, right?

God made flesh this miraculous moment in the history of the universe that happened. And just totally for me, it was like a demonstration of how God sometimes totally upends what we think is important and powerful and meaningful and displays it with such contrast that he could send Jesus who was augustus’s opposite at this time, and now this man who otherwise would have been one of the most famous in history, is kind of a footnote, even though he’s so learned about. And over Christmas, you know, we had billions of people around the world singing songs to Jesus Christ, this baby born in a barn. And, you know, it’s academics on campuses who study Augustus.

And I just I mean, I love the way God works sometimes. And it’s still like every time I think about the Christmas story and the redemptive nature of God sacrificing of himself to send his son to us, it’s just overwhelmingly powerful to me. And so I know that’s pretty cliche to talk about right after Christmas, but I can’t help it. Every year I just feel overwhelmed by, you know, the glory of God, the miraculous way in which he works and just the contrast of his values to our sometimes in the way that we think short term.

Richard Cunningham That’s great. Come on. Well, David, take us home.

David Bahnsen Yeah, I love that. That’s really encouraging, John. And edifying and such a neat way to think about all that. You know, I really enjoyed the kind of New Year’s resolution process this year. And and I know a lot of people say, no, you don’t. Need New Years. You know, you can make resolutions at any time, and that’s true. But I also don’t think there’s anything terribly unconstructive about using the calendar year to reflect and so forth.

And 2024 was a wonderful year for me, for my family, for our business, for just a lot of things. And, you know, 24 was a difficult year for a lot of people. But what all of us have in common is that 2025 is a new year. And regardless of how the year prior, the month prior, when when one kind of thinks about goal setting or things about where they want to be spiritually, personally in going into a new year, it’s kind of a clean slate.

And this is a biblical concept. As I was doing my New Year’s resolutions last week, I read Isaiah 43 that talked about forgetting the former things, not dwelling on the past. God is going to do a new thing. And I think that’s the story of our lives. It’s a story of redemption. It’s a story of recreation. Sometimes it’s more profoundly reiterated in our lives than others, but it’s a constant that we’re not captive to anything from the year prior, the month prior, the decade prior, that there’s opportunity to go forward with newness. And that ought to present an excitement and a motivation for us and to be encouraged in what God can do. It’s the entire story of the gospel, God making things new.

Richard Cunningham Man David Bahnsen of the Bahnsen Group. John Coleman Sovereign’s Capital. I don’t think I could think of a better way to start off 2025. Some some dialed market commentary, some good patriotism and just great hope and optimism about a new year. So thank you both for your time today. Friends, thanks for listening. Let’s go have a wonderful year and we’ll catch you next time.

Speaker 2 We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see your listeners come in for more than 100 countries. Faith Driven Investor It can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a groups study with other investors looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter at Faith driven investing.org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive Producer Justin Foreman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Drags Audio and Editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.

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What happens when we overcome initial reluctance to enter the world of impact investing? In this enlightening episode of Faith Driven Investor, Suzanne Daniel of the Pilgrim Foundation and Dana Wichterman of Impact Foundation share their journey from traditional philanthropy to impact investing, revealing how they’re helping create sustainable solutions for vulnerable communities worldwide. Their candid discussion explores the challenges of learning investment jargon, the importance of community in the faith-driven investment movement, and their vision for making impact investing accessible to all believers.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ, following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening. 

Narrator Hey everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed in this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening. 

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. A joy to have you with us for what is our second FDI pod of 2025. We kicked it off just a couple of weeks ago with the marks on the markets with David Bahnsen and John Coleman would highly encourage you to check that out as we kind of recapped 2024 in the markets and looked ahead to 2025. 

Joined today by one of our co-hosts who’s with us frequently, Luke Roush out of Nashville, Tennessee. Luke, not only are you co-host in today’s FDI podcast, but here in a couple of weeks on February 7th, you’ll be co-hosting the annual Global Faith Driven Investor Conference, which is kind of a seminal and key event for the broader FDI ecosystem and movement and something we’re going to spend kind of the bulk of our show on today. But before we go that direction, introduce our special guests. Man, how are you? How is Christmas? Even though it feels like an eternity away and kicking off the new year for Team Roush. 

Luke Roush Doing great first couple of weeks in January. Always a little bit of slog getting back into it, but we are fully into 2025, very, very excited. About February 7th. We’ve got two phenomenal guests on who everyone will hear more from at the conference, but are really excited for today’s conversation. 

Richard Cunningham Yes, sir. Yes. So today is kind of a special behind the scenes peek with You’ve got three conference speakers here, obviously, Luke, you hosting, Suzanne Daniel, who I am to introduce here in a moment, and Dana Wichterman, chairman as well. We’ll kind of share some brief bios. You’re going to see all three of these names. 

In particular, you’ll see a special feature on Suzanne and her story. But Dana Wichterman will be featured on the conference as well. They’re too humble to take these titles, but Luke and I would absolutely consider them heroes of the FDI movement. And so allow me to quickly kind of introduce who they are and then we’ll welcome Suzanne and Dana on this show. But starting with Suzanne Daniel graduated from the University of Delaware with a degree in animal science and a master’s degree in physiology at the Ohio State. So she is relishing in her national championship. She co-founded the Pilgrim Foundation in 1988 with 1998 excuse with her father. The Pilgrim Foundation has partnered with over 50 nonprofit organizations spanning Africa, Haiti, China and the U.S. Foundation grants focused on supporting Christian nonprofits that serve the most vulnerable. Most recently, the Pilgrim Foundation has put a more prominent focus on social impact investing. We get into a lot of that today and aligning their portfolios with the values of her Christian faith. She serves on the board of the Gathering Impact Foundation, organizations that are near and dear to many in the space. And she and her husband, Mark, have four kids, two grandchildren, lots of pets. Suzanne. We need to hear about that. And then currently reside in West Chester, Pennsylvania. Suzanne, so welcome to the show. Great to have you. Will say hey to Dana here in just a moment, but how are you doing? 

Suzanne Daniel Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Doing great. Really relishing some Ohio State victories as well as the Philadelphia Eagles. So, yeah, feeling very blessed right now. 

Richard Cunningham Well, football lovers, Luke and I myself both probably envy that statement a little bit to have both teams clipping and doing well currently. That’s awesome. But hey, going over to Dana Wichterman, who you also see on the video conference on the seven. Dana spent her career as an international economic development professional at the U.S. Agency for International Development. She currently works at Impact Foundation, helping Christians deploy their charitable capital for impact investing. She serves on the boards of several for profit and nonprofits, including our very own faith driven movements. She’s the founder of Faith Driven Entrepreneur, an investor network in DC. She holds an Emmy in International Affairs from Columbia University, and she coauthored recently with her husband, Bill, a forthcoming book called Stewards Not Owners The Joy of Aligning Your Money With Your Faith. Excited to get into that because that’s a pretty big deal that you and Bill put that book out there. I know a lot of folks have been looking forward to hearing your insights and the wisdom you guys have to offer. But Dana, welcome to the show. 

Dana Wichterman Thank you so much, Luke and Richard, for having us. 

Richard Cunningham Well, friends, today is going to be a lot of fun. And we’re talking February 7th, the big FDA conference. Listen to some of the themes that you’re going to hear as we kind of go in through the conference. It all kind of falls under this banner of the idea of courageous capital. So you’re going to hear from Eagle Ventures, a story about a fund that’s investing in for profit companies to end human trafficking. Suzanne Daniel’s story is going to be featured. And so we’re going to get a little bit of behind the scenes time with her today. 
You can hear stories on investors making an impact in the movie industry, multifamily housing industry, combating the loneliness epidemic through innovative means like an organization such as apartment life. Jeremy Lin Linsanity is going to be featured on the conference, so a number of fun, just kind of threads and narratives are pulling on. I was talking to the folks on the FDA staff the other day who are responsible for putting together watch parties. 
I think the number is up to 122 Global Watch party. So the way you can join is go onto the Faith Driven Investor website, click on to the conference tab. It’ll take you to the area where you can register. For a watch party Would love to have you there. A global movement. But the conference takes place in local expressions, and so that’s enough for me. We want to hear from you, Suzanne and Dana. And so maybe what we didn’t hear in the bio a little bit is kind of that inflection point for each of you. Suzanne, we’ll start with you on when God kind of opened your eyes up to this FDI space and kind of open your eyes to, hey, I want to get in the game with not only my nonprofit capital or my philanthropic capital, but also my for profit investing capital. And so let’s kind of get some of that story from each of you. And Suzanne, go ahead. 

Suzanne Daniel Sure. It’s funny that you say like get in the game. I didn’t know there was a game. So I had been a grant maker at the Pilgrim Foundation for about 20 years and really just focused on making grants to solve problems and meet the needs of the vulnerable. But on one trip to Haiti, I realized that there was a nonprofit that was doing great work, that was spinning off a for profit company. And I went to their opening of the factory. I’ve told this story many times, but I realized at the end of all of this that this was a sustainable source of income for the people of Haiti versus grants. So I chased down the owner and we sat across the coffee table and I said, How can I help you? Because I had capital and she had a need for investment. And we both had no idea how to move forward. So that was really that’s the clearest inflection point for me where I realized that there was a problem that I didn’t know how to solve, but I had what she needed. I just didn’t know how to get it across the bridge. 
So that’s what drove me to find this game that you speak of that existed that I didn’t know was happening. So I sought out experts and I finally realized that there was sort of a loose conglomeration of people that were leading a movement. That was exactly what I needed to do. But I was very surprised that it was in its early stages. I thought I was the one that was missing it. So we can talk more about that. But I think that’s the inflection point that you are referring to. 

Luke Roush Well, Suzanne, you’re in a unique spot. You know, we talk a lot about within Faith Driven Investor and this construct of trying to solve the world’s great problems. There are really three ways to do it. You can build as an entrepreneur or you can invest as an investor or you can give as a philanthropist. And you’re in the unique spot of addressing at least two, if not three of those. Really? All three. Because you built Pilgrim alongside your dad. What have you learned just in terms of where you apply which to build, invest, give many insights maybe from that first experience, just using that as an illustrative example around which tool comes out of the toolbox because you’ve got them all in there. 

Suzanne Daniel That’s a great question and we’re going to speak more about this, I think. But I will always have a section of the toolbox that is early stage startup will probably not be profitable, but I’m trying to get it off the ground enterprise so that it could be investable later. I feel like that’s a very clear calling for me. So that would be build, I would think, helping entrepreneurs build before many people would think there was any logic to that. So I really feel called to that. And then there’s invest would be the entirety of the portfolio that we want to be sustainable. We want it to grow at a market rate so that we can keep making grants. We don’t have a plan to sunset at this point. So I would say invest is for profit. The third piece give would be the continuation of our philanthropic grants, just traditional grants that we make every year. And we do long term, unrestricted grant making. So that really is a continuous source of income for nonprofits. 

Luke Roush That’s great. Thank you. 

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I like what you said about the catalytic side. You know, I just came from a Praxis workshop not too long ago where they unpack that redemptive frame that I know many know. But kind of ultimately the way of Jesus being that the redemptive means and practice of business, which is, Hey, I sacrifice, so we win. And Suzanne, I can hear that kind of in your tone, in the way you’re approaching the hey, these early stage startups are it’s gritty and we don’t necessarily know what it’s going to look like, but there’s a willingness and a catalytic nature to say someone’s got to be on the ground floor willing to kind of take that I sacrifice. So this idea of this kind of kingdom principle can win. And so decide to tug on that thread later. All right, Dana, what’s the inflection point for you? You and Bill, maybe just you individually, whatever it might be, when God kind of woke you up to this idea of faith driven investing and getting you in the game. 

Dana Wichterman Sure. So I’ll address a bit what Suzanne said, that we were in the impact world. We always had a sense that we were to be about God’s kingdom work, but Bill and I were drawn mostly into the government work, so that was where we thought we could see some good being done. And then he moved us into the nonprofit world, just like Suzanne. I didn’t know there was a game going on in the investment world. I’d hadn’t even understood that investments have an impact other than depositing some money back into my own account when I invested Well, and the inflection point I remember clear is about. I’m at a generous giving conference about ten years ago next to somebody from Eventide, an asset management company whose tagline is Investing that Makes the world Rejoice. And of course, my analytical side was like, That’s so cool. What a great concept. And then as soon as I went home, I’m like, But that’s not for me. 
So, you know, the Bible, God tells us repeatedly he is good, he is trustworthy, and we are not to fear. What did I do? Monty Python. Runaway. Runaway. You know, I knew the Holy Spirit was saying, look at your own investments. And I ran away. Okay. Fear, lacking trust and trying to do it in the worldly way. But he is so patient. You know, the Holy Spirit just kept prodding very gently, very patiently through my husband, through our Christian financial advisor. And finally I said, okay, I surrender. I need to look at our investment portfolio, both our nonprofit and our Donor Advice fund through the National Christian Foundation, because those assets are invested until we decide to deploy them. But we also needed to look at our personal finances. And I can’t imagine now why we wouldn’t do it that way. Now I look back and say, Of course that makes sense, and it’s even fun and joyful. But it didn’t start out that way. So be careful who you sit next to at a generous giving conference. 

Suzanne Daniel If I can just add and relate to a day and I said if I had been exposed to this ecosystem the way she had, I would have done the same exact thing. The only thing that made me dig in was that we had a college scholarship program in Haiti and we needed those jobs to be sustainable or we were going to put these kids through college and they would have no employment. There are so few thriving businesses in Haiti. So it was only because I knew exactly who this was going to impact that. It made me do the thing that I wanted to do least. There was nothing less interesting to me than learning the jargon around investments that is like nails on a chalkboard for me. But because I love the people that this is going to benefit and I wanted to see them have a hope and a future and their identity restored to where the Lord wants to see them be. That was the only reason that motivated me to stay with it. But I am with you, Dana. If I met just an investment manager that said there’s this thing, if it wasn’t personally connected, I would have completely walked away. 

Luke Roush Well, I think both of your comments really point to this idea that the things that tug at our heartstrings are often complicated, and they often require different tools to address different parts of the problem. And so, you know, the reality of issues being multifactorial and making sure that we apply the right tool to the issue at hand, eventually, you know, what is needed is for people to be able to have stable employment and to be a part of either building something individually or joining in somebody else’s vision and helping them build that in sustainable enterprise. And so what I think is unique about you two is you both had experience implementing multiple solution approaches, not just giving, not just, you know, investing, but really thinking about problems holistically and trying to figure out, all right, what makes sense. You know, in the here and now with this part of the issue. And then how do you both of you have been, I think, encouraging and engaging with other individuals to come alongside you where you come alongside them? Because part of this is actually what do we do in community that we couldn’t do on our own? Maybe speak to an example of what one of those collaborations has looked like for you all. 

Dana Wichterman Yeah. Okay. Well, I’ll just say the faith driven community, once I discovered it, has been so instrumental in motivating me and giving me new ideas and encouragement and normalizing looking at your investments and knowing that they have an impact and then trying to use them for good. And so I would say even though Bill and I were very familiar with where God was calling us individually and as a couple in terms of our calling and individual impact, we didn’t know the where and the how and the why and even the when with investing, there’s a lot of timing involved in how to do smart impact investing. And so I would say the collaboration, even Suzanne and I and another friend, Michelle, we just have such a joy in drawing other women into this space because women are typically not as represented. We love to look at bringing underrepresented founders into the space and we love to learn from the other investors who are further along in their journey. I mean, just like Susie and I had to learn all this jargon. I had to look at Investopedia, like constantly. 

Suzanne Daniel Yup. 

Dana Wichterman And Suzanne and I helped each other get over our fear of imposter syndrome and just say, you know, we’re going to show up and learn from everyone. And we were so welcomed and mentored and so. I would say the collaboration has been instrumental to where both Susanne and I are headed in the future. 

Richard Cunningham I think it’s that spirit of humility that both of you have led with. Kind of brings me back to that comment earlier. Just been heroes of this movement because I think we all have it. The imposter syndrome, the don’t want to be found out, whatever it is. I mean, the theme of this year’s conference, Dana, you’re tugging on is the courageous capital. And you mentioned it with you and kind of Bill’s walk and your own journey was, do we really want to look under the hood? Do we want to do the uncomfortable work of looking under the hood and seeing what we’re invested in and how we’re going to feel conviction over that and how we’re going to make change. And that dovetails. Suzanne, we don’t want to, you know, tease out too much of your talk on the seventh that folks are going to hear in the video story that they’ve done on you and the Pilgrim Foundation, everything you’re involved with. But maybe give us a little bit of a teaser of kind of your story and how it relates to this year’s theme of Courageous Capital, what you’re going to be talking about in that feature story? 

Suzanne Daniel Sure. I’ve sort of explored that a little bit more as it’s come up with this topic. And of course, in the position that we’re in that we find ourselves in. It doesn’t seem like you have to be courageous. It’s a pretty blessed, wonderful life experience that I’ve been having with capital. I would say the courageous part was, first of all, realizing I didn’t understand the language. My degrees were in physiology, animal physiology. So I couldn’t even get further from the topic of business or investment. And I was also as generous and amazing as my father was in this process. He was an expert, and I felt intimidated by his shadow. And I remember years and years ago when I was probably ten years into making grants, asking him, can we look at what we’re invested in and determine if it’s aligned with what we’re trying to do in the world. And he very kindly said, it’s invested. Great. We’re trying to make as much money as we can so we can give away as much money as we can. And, you know, what else do we need? And I would open my mouth to say something, and I realized I didn’t have any words. And it didn’t seem like there was an ecosystem or anybody else saying. 
That’s why very quickly felt imposter syndrome. Like Dana said, that I was misunderstanding the Lord. I felt pretty compelled, but I also felt like I could and even to this day be misunderstood as sort of a bleeding heart female that just wants to make everybody happy and feed the children. And that wasn’t what my intention was. Even in our grant making, that’s not my intention. I want to build sustainable structures to move people forward. So I think that all of those things combined along with it being a very male dominated space with a ton of jargon, and the men I met were incredibly welcoming. But when you don’t have the language, there’s very little you can participate in. So I just had to keep showing up, but I didn’t want to be silent, but I didn’t have anything to say until I learned more about even just the vocabulary, like Dana said, like keeping a running list of words I didn’t understand or concepts that in a granular level were beyond my ability to sort of track with. I understood portfolio design and realizing that you need diversification and things like that that I have been exposed to as I grew up with a professional investor. But as far as nitty gritty and understanding, different vehicles, it was so far over my head. 

Luke Roush Well, one of the things that both of you understand, and I’ve been around you both enough to I think appreciate this is while jargon matters and it’s certainly important to be able to talk the talk and understand what people are referencing, the majority of investing is truly about people, and the majority of giving is really about people and leadership. And so, you know, it’s harder to give people the tutorial on how do you understand and evaluate people. It’s much easier to train on some of the jargon, but what really matters is actually understanding how people and teams work. And that’s what both of you guys have understood. And you’ve both, I think, had the courage to lean in early with something that’s nascent. You know, what we always say in our venture work is it’s okay to fail, but you want to fail fast and fail cheap. And so this idea of low cost probes and being willing to sort of jump in early to assess an idea and provide some of the seed capital to help make those ideas become a reality to be tested. I think both of you have been active in that regard, and I don’t know if you have a story or an example of what that’s looked like in your own either grant making or investing work. 

Dana Wichterman Yeah. Well, I would say that through Impact Foundation and helping people use their charitable capital, which is tax deductible at that moment and then invest it in transformational companies as opposed to granting it to nonprofits. I have seen a lot of people use that as a way to catalyze businesses that should be in the world but don’t exist because right now it’s too hard for them to start. Startups are hard. They’re risky and. So a lot of people use their impact account to catalyze. They know that they have to have patient capital. They may have to take 7 to 10 years to see a return. They may have to take a lower, you know, return on their loan. But they want to because they’re saying this business should be in the world and eventually it will get on its legs and be sustainable and be scalable. But for right now, I’m going to be a part of that ecosystem that is helping it get its wings. And so I think that’s a beautiful way to use your charitable capital in investing in faith driven companies. 

Richard Cunningham That’s really cool. All right. So both of you have interesting perspectives in that You both have kind of approached the FDI network in the space and stewardship alongside families. Suzanne, you with your father in the Pilgrim Foundation, kind of, you know, has been instrumental in how you guys have carried out everything you’ve done for the Pilgrim Foundation. Dana, you just wrote a book with your husband, which in of itself, we need to hear about just that process and journey. But what is that look like kind of from a community aspect of, you know, the FDA network. You know, everything about it speaks Catholic community. What does it look like when you brought your family into the fold? Suzanne And what does stewardship look like in that particular context? I kind of let you start and talk about that journey. 

Suzanne Daniel Sure. I think as I grew up in my family, my dad, I didn’t realize this until much later in life. Always made it comfortable to talk about money. It was just like talking about the weather. And he would make comments like, When I drop dead, you know, this is going to happen and this is going to move here. And we just always were. It was just sort of like what we’re marinated in. Unfortunately, he didn’t speak in jargon, so it didn’t help me. But I think it was just always a very unemotional topic. Nobody ever got triggered. So as I’ve experienced other people, as our family has grown, I’ve realized, gosh, this is a really upsetting topic for so many people and I just hadn’t experienced that growing up. So I we always talk to our kids that way. We talked about their futures, about saving, about them, but like, just matter of fact. And that was something that was really important to carry for the lack of drama around money and then moving into raising my own family for kids. We tried our best to just model generosity, do it rather transparently with our kids, whether when they were younger. It was our time. As they’ve gotten older, we’ve been more transparent about what we’re doing with our money and then also always pointing them back to the fact that as an inheriting family, which they understand, that came from my father’s hard work, it really is. Just ask the steward. We didn’t earn it. So I often equate this to my journey with faith. We didn’t do anything to earn our faith as if I didn’t do anything to earn what we inherited from my father’s success. So it makes it even easier for me to look at it as a stewardship role instead of an ownership role. And I’m so glad that Dana wrote about this, because obviously we have been blessed with more than we needed. So it’s even more clear that there’s a further purpose for the resources that we don’t need. And I think that’s a very high calling and really important to see as a stewardship position and not an ownership position. 

Richard Cunningham Man, thanks for the realness there, Suzanne. I think a lot of people can learn from that. All right, Dana, we got to know who’s the better writer, your bill, and then, of course, tell us about the book. 

Dana Wichterman He’s the faster writer and the more concise writer. But we’re both writers by profession and really enjoy both thinking and writing together. 

Luke Roush So what you’re really doing there is sort of quality versus quantity. That’s kind of what I heard come out of that book. Quantity. Bill’s got it. But in terms of depth, it’s all. 

Dana Wichterman Dana But thank you for asking. So we have discovered so many amazing people living out their kingdom, calling with whole life stewardship in that faith driven movement community that we just felt their stories need to be amplified. I mean, too often people say, why is God not showing up? And we’re like showing up everywhere through his people. We need to amplify these stories. So we chose 24 people to tell their stories. Suzanne is one of them, and Henry Kaestner is another. And many of the others that we’ve met through Faith Driven Entrepreneur an investor. And we wanted to show that God has as many ways to build and back or found and fund his good works as there are people on this earth. I mean, there is no one right way, but everyone can and should get in the game. I really think we were all made for good works and these are the good works that you can lean into. Everyone has agency in some capacity, whether it’s to pray or to act or to fund or to build solutions to these problems in the world. The world is broken and God wants to bring his healing to them as us being his hands and feet. And I see the faith driven movement as. Activating those hands and feet to be more effective and efficient. And so our book is just showing that capital has influence and that we need to take that seriously and steward it, not own it, do it joyfully and in community. The book is called Stewards, Not Owners The Joy of Aligning Your Money With Your Faith. It’s published by four front books and distributed by Simon Schuster and available on Amazon and available for preorder now and will be out in March. 

Luke Roush That’s beautiful. That’s going to be a message that resonates, I think, with couples all over the place. And I’m excited to go through it with Brooke. This next question is really for both of you. And so as you reflect on all that God has allowed you to do within the broader FDI arena, where do you feel like the Body of Christ has made significant progress? Where do you feel like we still have a lot of room to grow? And this whole idea of solving the world’s greatest problems, which has been a big push from faith driven recently and over the remainder of this year, just be great to hear your sense of kind of where have we made progress and where is there still a lot of work left to do? 

Suzanne Daniel I think there has been tremendous progress. I would say I’ve been focused on this for about 5 or 6 years, and in that time I have seen tremendous progress in the fact that there’s more that’s available to invest in. There’s more advisors to guide us. When I started, there was a handful that I felt like were accessible, and now there’s a buffet of choices of just services that can help you figure this out, specifically aligning your whole portfolio with your values. And there’s an entire ecosystem like we talked about to explore. But I feel like what’s limiting is most of this is only available to accredited investors. So as I talk to my adult children and their friends and Christians in my church, everybody of course wants to do this. But it really is difficult for them to penetrate the ecosystem when they are investing for their retirement, for their kid’s college funds. So I feel like we need to work harder to make it available to Main Street investors. And one thing that I’m working on with our advisor is really comparing the returns in our values aligned portfolio with our secular aligned investments, whatever they may be, and just proving to the ecosystem that you don’t have to take a loss, that there’s more and more data showing that you can compete with indexes and make the return that you need to to accomplish the goals that you have for non-accredited investors. So I think that that’s something we need to disprove, that assumption that you’re going to take a financial hit by aligning your values. But for me, I’m still trying to figure out if that’s actually true for myself, my own portfolios, but then also for different investment positions and strategies. And I just want to make sure that that’s true and get that message out and make more available to mainstream investors. 

Luke Roush I think it’s a good word, Suzanne. And one of the things that has been on the group’s mind, I think consistently over the last dozen years is this question of is impact really at odds in a zero sum game with returns? And so I love the fact that you’re gathering that data. I think it’s super important. And also being able to just differentiate, you know, in some areas there may be a trade in other areas or may not be a trade off. And so gathering data not just in aggregate, but also by different asset classes that are available to different types of investors to really, really important part of what each of us does individually in this space. Dana, over to you on that question. 

Dana Wichterman I would ditto everything Suzanne said. She’s spot on and I think it’s encouraging to see so many financial advisors become Kingdom advisors certified. There’s conferences now. It’s really through FDI and FTE that you all have brought the ecosystem together so we can find one another. You’re having the conferences, you’re having the fund managers come together, you’re having the entrepreneurs come together, the investors. So these small groups, you’ve helped us have shared language which Praxis really started that process of the right language. So we didn’t feel like freaks anymore. But now it’s like, okay, now we can use that language and develop tools and instruments. And so kudos to sovereigns for doing that with the ETF and Eventide for doing that. But we do need more products and we I think we will over time, but we need to demand more products, which means you all need to just continue your efforts to open more eyes. There’s a ton of Christians that just haven’t heard this message yet and once they hear it, they’re super excited. That’s why it’s important to come to the FDA conference and bring friends, and if they don’t come, send them some of the video messages in terms of so that their eyes can be open, because I really think it’s an. Invitation and one that once they see, they’ll appreciate. And I would say the area that really needs work is spiritual metrics and metrics in general. The nonprofit world has learned that, you know, to be effective and efficient and to know that you’re hitting your goal, you actually need a metric and you need to measure and you need to report on it. I think the Faith Driven Entrepreneur and investor world is starting to also take that on. But I think we need to work harder on it and provide money for our entrepreneurs to actually spend time tracking and developing metrics. I would encourage people there is a group that has formed out of the faith driven movement called Christian Impact Framework Project. Look us up on LinkedIn and join to see what we’re trying to do to have an open source language indicators and shared metrics that we can use in this ecosystem to really start learning more better practices and linking arms together. 

Luke Roush I think it’s a great word, and the construct of things that are measured tend to improve. It’s absolutely true in faith driven businesses the way it is in secular businesses. Richard, back over to you. 

Richard Cunningham Yeah, that’s awesome, guys. All right. Well, hey, grounded in some wisdom. And take us home with this question we love to ask at the close of each and every podcast. And I will start with you, and that is, hey, what’s God been teaching you in and through his word lately? 

Dana Wichterman Well, the verse that motivates me is a Fusions 210. For we are God’s handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do. And I think of it two ways, particularly as it applies to my journey in the Faith Driven Investor space. The positive one is kind of the Eric Liddell feeling that when I run I feel his pleasure. And Suzanne and I both feel this way when we’re investing under the Lordship of Christ into faith driven entrepreneurs and seeing them grow and really solve problems. We feel his pleasure, right? That’s just such a joy. There’s another example I use, though, too, is Michelangelo. When he was sculpting the David, he said the David was always resonant in that marble. I just had to chip away at that, which was not David’s. And so sometimes it hurts a little bit to be shaped and sculpted by the Lord, to become who you were meant to be and to step into those good works. But I see that as God sculpting out the sin, the pride, the greed, the fear, the worldliness so that I can become the Dana God wanted me to be. Richard and Suzanne and Luke. You can become who God created you to be. And then we will run and fill his pleasure. 

Richard Cunningham Suzanne, take us home. 

Suzanne Daniel Sure. I just finished a profound book that I just wanted to share with you guys. Maybe you’ve all read it. The Knowledge of the Holy by Tozer said everyone’s favorite. 

Richard Cunningham Tozer is amazing and dense all at the same time. 

Luke Roush Deep. And that’s the deep end. 

Suzanne Daniel I was grateful. It was 117 pages. It was an easy read, though, but I think that for me, just circling back after many, many years as a Christian into the holiness of God and the attributes of him really brought me to my knees as far as reverence and the posture I needed to have as I do this work that we’re not serving our body. We are serving a holy and omnipotent God that loves and adores every single person that this work touches. So I just wanted to read this two short statements from that book that just closed the last chapter. The more perfectly we know God, the more we will feel the desire to translate this newfound knowledge into deeds of mercy towards suffering humanity. And then the last line of the book, We are left for a season among men. Let us faithfully represent him here. So I think for me, reorienting myself around the fact that with whatever the Lord has put in my hands, I’m going to serve humanity because that’s the only reason that we’re here. And this book just made me really focus on the holy attributes of God in a fresh way. 

Richard Cunningham Come on. Well, friends, if you want more of Dana Wisdom and Suzanne Daniel, they’re speaking on the Faith Driven Investor conference February 7th. Go to Faith Driven Investor conference.org. Click register. Now you’ll be able to find a watch party, hopefully local to you. If there’s not one local view, there’s still time. Raise your hand. Host it locally hosted at your church, in your living room, whatever it is, gather some friends, as Dana said. But Suzanne Daniel, in a way, thank you both for all you’ve done for this movement. The ways you have both boldly let out, whether it be philanthropically with investment capital. I think a lot of people look to your humility, your example, and are deeply encouraged by it and feel that same kind of push to get in the game thanks to the ways you guys are leading up. For Luke Roush, I’m Richard Cunningham, Folks, thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast and we will catch you next time. 

Narrator We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see your listeners come in for more than 100 countries. Faith Driven Investor It can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter and faith driven investing dawg. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive Producer Justin Foreman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Drags Audio and Editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb. 

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John Coleman and Richard Cunningham unpack key themes from the 2025 Global Faith Driven Investor conference, exploring how faith-aligned investing is transforming various asset classes. From public markets to entertainment, real estate to venture capital, they examine how Christians are driving excellence and impact across the investment landscape. The episode concludes with timely market commentary on AI innovation, political developments, and technological disruption shaping markets in 2025.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ, following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening. 

Speaker 2 Hey everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosted guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed, and this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening. 

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Awesome to have you with us for what is the week after the big Global Faith Driven Investor conference and gathering its marks on the markets as well. So we’re going to do something pretty fun today. I’ve got John Coleman in the podcast studio with me. And John, we’re going to do a little bit of kind of a flyby of some of those main conference themes, topics that were unearthed on Friday, and just visit those and kind of more detail, get maybe a little bit of color behind the scenes. You and I’s kind of taken vantage point on health and state of FDI market as we look at some of those talks and just the different asset classes and stories that were unearthed during the conference. And now we are all about integrity here on the FDI pod. 

So I got to be honest. Today is Wednesday, February 5th, as John and I record this podcast. The conference technically hasn’t taken place yet. As you all know, it’s happening on February 7th, this coming Friday, and this episode releases the 10th Monday, February 10th. And so there’s a little bit of nuance there as we get our past tense and present tense and anything like that. Confused. Just know we’ve been privy to some of the FDI conference content, but just a disclaimer upfront, John, before we get going and dive in and how are you? Man? 

John Coleman I’m doing pretty well. We just had our firm’s all team retreat this last weekend, so that was really encouraging and a lot of fun. Got our team in from around the world, so I think we’re all riding high on that. Looking forward to the FDI conference. How am I supposed to say that? Past tense, Present tense. Now. I am currently looking forward to it. I know it’ll been out by the time we post this, but I think it’s going to be great and it’s exciting to see how the movement has grown. So I’m feeling very optimistic overall. 

Richard Cunningham Yeah, absolutely. Well, John, you are a speaker in the conference and that’s where I want to start. If you look at kind of the overall conference theme and what was discussed on Friday, it’s the kind of theme of, hey, the riskiest thing you can do is nothing. Thinking about Matthew 25, Parable of Talents the servant who squanders or does not do anything with their talent. You go on to give a talk just on money and how we can be faithful as we think about earning it, spending it, investing it and giving it. And I think that all kind of plays into these themes of the conference of, you know, how is God calling you and your family to join the battle? All investing is impact investing. What impact will you have? You can build, give and invest here as we focus on during the conference to solve some of the world’s greatest challenges, whether that’s with market rate, return, patient, concessionary capital or just full on giving. So want to kind of give you a moment here to maybe unpack some of the behind the scenes of that talk where you talked about earning, spending, investing in giving money, how it plays into kind of this year’s big theme. 

John Coleman Yeah, absolutely. So it’s been on my mind a lot because I’m actually working on a book at the moment for my publisher, Harvard Business Review on Money and Flourishing. And it’s the first personal finance book that HPR has ever done. And the idea is what are the habits, mindsets and values that can make money a good rather than a bad thing in your life. So if I zoom out even from a specifically faith driven lens, almost every major moral tradition in the world, religion, philosophic tradition has a lot to say about money. And a lot of those comments are actually well aligned, and they match up with what we’re learning from modern research, which is that more money isn’t necessarily good for you. And a lot of money can sometimes be incredibly damaging to people. You know, I always start by reminding people it’s harder to be poor than to be rich for sure. But there are so many, countless instances where people achieve financial goals that they always thought they wanted only to be disappointed by those or even have their lives ruined by those. Right. There are studies of lottery winners and just how destructive the lottery can be in people’s lives. I mean, suicide rates increase. Bankruptcy rates are incredibly high among lottery winners. There’s research showing that, for example, NFL players who often receive big contracts early a go bankrupt, it’s something like three times the national average rate. So despite the fact that you’d think these folks are making out really well at a young age, that influx of money at a young age without any philosophic framework for how to handle it can often be destructive in their lives. And we all know people whose lives have been upended by money. Right? We know wealthy people sometimes who’ve done a great job with that. At the f d iPod, we’ve heard from people like Allen Barnhart and others who’ve been extraordinarily thoughtful about the way in which they’ve managed wealth that’s come out of their businesses. But each of us probably also knows people whose friendships have been hurt. His marriage has been hurt. His kids have ended up on the wrong track because of that. And so what I wanted to do was start digging into this question of like, if money itself is just a tool, right? Money itself has no moral value. It’s what we do with money that has a moral value. What can we do with money that makes it a good rather than a bad thing in our lives and in our communities? And so, as you note in the. Video that folks will have seen by now, hopefully says, you know, I break that framework into a few areas. It is about how you earn money, about how you invest it, about how you give it and about how you spend it. Those are the four big ways in which we each encounter money and what habits we can have around those. And what’s funny to me again, is that the modern research on money, the things that we’re learning through the social sciences, match really well with Christian tradition, right? They really do. If you think about spending money, for example, all the research now says that if you’re going to spend money, it should be on experiences, not stuff and experiences. Help us build relationships which tightly links to kind of depth and breadth of positive relationships and of love in our lives. Spending money on that stuff, getting people together, going on great trips with folks, doing outings as a group of friends or family, those can often be really good. Whereas the stuff that we buy rarely gives us any sort of lasting satisfaction, right? Which I think even heard Solomon talk about in the Bible, right? Where he talks about the meaninglessness of some of the things that he’s acquired. I think giving, for example, which is so common not only in the Christian tradition, but in a couple of other religious traditions, service to others is regularly one of the top 2 or 3 ways in which we experience great purpose and meaning in our lives, in which we experience great flourishing. And that applies to our financial lives. People are always shocked at how liberating it is to begin to give financially to others, to serve others through our finances. And yet the U.S. is the most generous country in the world, and only about 2% of GDP goes to giving right the average person, thereby giving kind of 2% of what they have. And so I think there’s a bunch of stuff that we can embrace from a habits, mindsets and values point of view that’s deeply aligned with both the research on the topic as well as Christian tradition, among other moral traditions that can make our lives better in the way that we deal with money. And I think FDI really intersects with that. I’ve got a whole section in the book on investing, and it’s investing for impact, right? And the idea is that of those four places you touch, money consuming it, giving it, earning it, investing is often the place that we think the least about what values our money is embracing. And yet for many people, it’s the biggest pool of money, right? A lot of people have more in invested capital than they have in annual earnings. A lot of people invest more every year than they spend. A lot of people invest more than they give every year. And yet, for some reason, this biggest pocket is the one we pay the least attention to. And I think that’s a huge opportunity for purpose and meaning in people’s lives. I think if we were learning to activate the values of our invested dollars in the way we do our giving dollars, for example, that that can unlock a great deal of flourishing purpose and meaning in our lives and in the lives of others. So those are a few of the topics that I visited. We do it at greater length in the videos, but I think it’s a really fun and interesting topic. 

Richard Cunningham Now it’s perfect because it’s the perfect segue into where we’re going next as we kind of visit some of the asset classes and the stories that were talked about in the conference. And it plays into that big theme that Faith Driven Investor is kind of been socializing a lot in the last year and a half, which I really appreciate. It’s a helpful framework, but it’s kind of saying, hey, if the if the goal is to attack some of the world’s greatest challenges and problems, solving the world’s greatest problems is what faith through and talks about. It’s really three things you can do. You’re founder oriented, you’re just a builder, a catalyze. Or you could build something there. You could build a for profit venture that goes to that extent or maybe a nonprofit. They go to that extent. If you’ve got philanthropic capital, you can give and deploy capital charitably to those instances. And then, John, what you’re talking about here is the investing piece. And what you’re so beautifully articulating is forever. That’s just kind of been the set it and forget it. Leave it, don’t worry about it. We’ve just kind of feel so, you know, disenchanted by what’s possible with our investment capital yet Christian Shepherd trillions of dollars in investable wealth You know there’s a significant opportunity at hand. That’s why this whole movement exists to drive meaningful change. But unfortunately, oftentimes Luke says this in the conferences, there’s kind of this view of like, hey, anything that has the Christian version to it is often viewed as second rate. And you and I know that just doesn’t align with scripture. We believe you can have success not in spite of your biblical values, but because of them. And so that’s kind of where we get so activated and passionate about this. Faith Driven Investor movement is bringing excellence to the movement. So let’s go kind of big asset class first public markets where most of our capital is tied up. And there is a couple of stories here that we’re touched on. First, Susanne Daniel talking about how her granting felt like it was almost getting canceled out by her investing, like there was things that she was profiting off of as she invested capital that felt almost counter and contrary to her giving. So I want you to talk about that. And then also and this is not a commercial by any means and never is on the FDA. I pod saw if the ETF that you helped launch at Sovereign’s Capital was featured in Matt Monson was talked about and just the opportunity at play in the public markets as an institutional investor structuring an ETF. The everyday investor can access to drive change within the Russell 3000 with publicly traded companies. So kind of let you speak about the public markets a little bit and kind of what’s going on in the space. 

John Coleman If I get really practical, I think for a Faith Driven Investor and public markets, they’re really three things that you can think about doing today, right? One of which, Suzanne is starting to highlight. The first of those is negative screening. It’s how do we not invest in businesses or support things that seem in contradiction to our values. Right. There’s an apocryphal story outside of the faith driven world where a big cancer foundation out of New York City that was dealing with a lot of lung cancer, for example, found that it was investing more every year in tobacco companies through its investment portfolio than it was actually giving to remediate some of the outcomes those tobacco companies. And I think Suzanne touches on that. And this idea that you don’t want to find that the things you’re investing in or devoting, which we’ll come to second in those companies is really running counter to the work that you do, right? Henry Kaser, our friend, was talking recently about the example of one of the publicly traded dating apps, effectively where the features are almost designed to exacerbate the insecurity and superficiality of the dating market and to harm people psychologically and how he just didn’t want exposure to that. There’s not like a shareholder engagement way of making that better, right? And so there’s a certain number of things that you would just want to screen out that may look different for some Faith Driven Investor is because people have different lines that they won’t cross, you know? It could be adult entertainment. It could be certain types of social media that you just don’t believe have any redemptive purpose. It could be gambling, it could be pure play alcohol, etc.. And I do think there are some moral judgments to make there. But that’s one thing. And I think it’s one of the easiest things to do now is to just find out ways to just not have exposure either through Christian fund managers or faith aligned fund strategies, whether passive or active or even through direct indexing. Now, where you can select certain types of securities that you don’t want in there. The second thing that I think we’ve seen people migrate to in public equities, which is a positive thing, is shareholder engagement and proxy voting. You know, this has become such a hot topic over the last 3 or 4 years. When I started speaking about the rise of ESG and shareholder engagement and proxy voting four years ago when I joined sovereigns, often people in the audience had never heard of it. People didn’t know what ESG was or they vaguely had heard of it. They didn’t understand proxy voting or corporate engagement at all. And now this is a huge national conversation, right, where even big asset managers are retreating on the topic. I think that it remains one of the best ways in which Christians can take control of their portfolio. There are a number of opportunities now for things like direct indexing and SMS, which give you ownership of the shares that you have so that you can engage directly. You can work with either passive or active strategies run by faith driven managers who are more likely to vote and engage in a way that’s deeply aligned with your personal beliefs. But this is the idea that you may not want to screen out a company like Apple, for example, even though you don’t love everything that Apple does. But you do want a voice. You want your voice to be reflected in Apple’s board recommendations and the votes that they have. And you want to make sure that you’re engaging in a way that tries to improve those companies from a values perspective. And I think taking control of your shareholder engagement and proxy voting, either through direct indexing, voting yourself, which is quite hard unless you’re an institution or through an aligned fund manager, is also a no brainer these days where there are options. And then the third, which is where we focus a bit more with the Flourish fund, that sovereign’s is positive engagement, you know, So we are doing the first two of those things and that we don’t hold anything that doesn’t have a redemptive product or service attached to it. We’re certainly doing all of our own proxy voting and corporate engagement, but the idea is to define a strategy that’s more about what you’re for than what you’re against, and to try and encourage leaders and companies who are doing the right things by investing in those both out of the belief that it’s the value supplying thing to do. And also, at least in the case of the Flourish fund, out of the belief that if you build a company based on faith aligned values, you will build a culture that’s capable of outperformance. There is a lot of mainstream research on this topic. So the London Business School, for example, and even Alex Edmonds there, has shown that the outperformance of companies in the 100 best companies to work for in public markets is substantially greater than other peer companies, something like 40 to 50% greater. McKinsey and Company did some research on companies as well that showed that top quartile versus medium or bottom quartile culture companies also performed in that spectrum as well, that they performed top quartile or they performed bottom quartile. And so we believe that if you’re building companies that help people to flourish through chaplaincy employee benevolence funds, through great family friendly policies, through great mission vision and values, through community service, through mentorship groups and small groups that you’re going to build a culture that can help you outperform. And so the thesis there is not passive. It’s how can we invest in cultures that we think are going to lead to great financial returns that also have extraordinary impact on people. And then how can we engage deeply with the CEOs of those companies in order to continuously improve those cultures aligned with what we believe about human flourishing from the context of our Christian faith? And so that’s the thesis of the Sovereign’s Flourish Fund, as well as some of the other public equity funds out there. And we view that as kind of the culmination of the way in which you can engage in public equities, because it’s not just the negative screening that that may be important. It’s not just the engagement that may be important. It’s both of those things, plus this kind of positive screening for the types of cultures and values that you’re looking for, which hopefully really do have positive impacts on performance as well. 

Richard Cunningham Yeah. And just a couple of maybe statistical things that come behind that with that stuck out to me from the conference is Matt Monson, who manages the flash funded sovereigns. He talks about the kind of investable universe and stock market within the U.S. as the Russell 3000 sets, 3000 companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange or Nasdaq. And inside of that, something I was encouraged by is that they’ve identified 350 publicly traded companies with a faith driven CEO at the helm. And so that kind of creates the universe for surveys of which they can go engage with, understand, evaluate those companies, and then ultimately discover and figure out who will be inside of the portfolio. And then, as John was talking about, going even another step forward and bringing together those CEOs to talk about best practices, I was deeply encouraged by that. You guys even got to go ring the bell at the New York Stock Exchange, which is something Matt highlights this past year. And so I think it’s just the scope is enormous. The opportunity for engagement is enormous. And a couple of other things I want to just kind of call to mind that were flashed in the conference that are powerful is that 73% of advisors are not asking their faith driven clients about investing in aligns with value. So getting back to John, just that idea of like we just kind of set investing in default and our advisors are just not caring to engage. But I think they’re waking up to that in the future in space, even though over the last five years there’s been $182 billion channeled towards impact investing in the US alone and 63% of millennials say they want an advisor who aligns with their religious beliefs. So I think we’re still in the early innings. And to back that up a little bit further, our good pal Tim McCreadie, who we had on the pod probably just under a year ago, he releases at Bright Light, their kind of state of play of faith driven investing. And his research kind of says within the public markets that we’re at about 130 billion in assets they can identify and faith driven mutual funds and ETFs in the US. He really thinks that’s a conservative estimate, probably over 200 billion and then another 100 billion and things like SMEs and direct indexing those other products you were talking about, John. So while we can kind of see the growth of the opportunity, man, we’re just still so early. It’s such a small drop in the bucket compared to the trillions of dollars that are out there that could be activated. So any final comments on public markets before we kind of pivot to the next thing? 

John Coleman Yeah. And the thing I would note about Tim statistics, Richard, because those those matched pretty closely with what we’ve estimated as well, is even within that bucket of so-called faith driven assets, there’s room to move up the chain to even greater positive engagement, etc.. You know, that would include a lot of stuff that’s pure, just passive negative screening, for example, again, which I’m not criticizing at all. But I think that’s just kind of the tip of the iceberg in what you can do. If we could activate those assets to do more engagement, to do that in a concerted way where there’s a huge pool of assets encouraging companies to lean into appropriate values and in creating active management screens or even indexes that then encourage positive behaviors. I mean, we’ve got not only an opportunity to activate more of the trillions of dollars of faith driven capital out there for public equities, but within those that are already activated to move them up, the spectrum of engagement, up the spectrum of faith integration, so that we’re constantly pushing the needle on what faith integrated public equities can look like. 

Richard Cunningham You know, showing what we’re for in the world, as Henry talks about in the conference, as opposed to just saying what we’re against. All right. Hey, pivoting into a subject that I know is near and dear to your heart. So this is kind of a big jump from public markets to maybe what is more of a fringe or kind of exciting investment space as the movies and entertainment realm. So we heard Raymond and Mary Del Harris speaking about in their portfolio how they’ve backed things like I can only imagine in October, Baby in American Underdog, some of these John Irwin films. And then we heard Kelly Merriman, the CEO of The Wonder Project, speak about just the opportunity at hand and what can be expected to be seen in this year ahead, 2025, with just kind of the faith driven content. And John, I’ve heard you talk about this before. And we were just talking about how Christian things can be viewed as second rate, but forever. It was faith driven folks who’ve had such a touch of excellence. Think of something like the Sistine Chapel and how the arts are so important upstream from culture. And so I know this is deeply personal to you, something you’ve invested a lot of your time towards. But the movies and entertainment realm and how Faith Driven Investor is going to get activated there. Talk about that. 

John Coleman Yeah, absolutely. And Richard, I’ll just start where you ended, which is there is no reason Christians should be second rate in culture, right? Christians should be in touch with something really beautiful about human nature and about the universe that allows them to unlock the best in in culture, right? Whether that be art or sculpture or music. And if you think of so much of the history of this stuff, I mean, the Sistine Chapel for sure is such explicitly faith driven material. The statue of David, which you may have seen in Florence before, is one of the most beautiful creations in the world. A lot of the old music was really predicated on honoring God. Right. A lot of the great composers were Christians who dedicated their music to God. The old churches were some of the most beautiful architecture in the world. On and on and on. I mean, The Inferno was kind of a very religious piece. For example, there’s been great religious writing over the course of history. And even if you look at kind of old Hollywood, you know, two of the top performing movies of all time were Ben-Hur and the Ten Commandments. Right. Which were so infused with faith. And then other shows where it was just kind of a part of the fabric of the show itself. Like It’s a Wonderful Life, where there are spiritual themes that are so deeply aligned with the context of our faith. And yet, for some reason in recent years, I feel like Christians have lost the mantle of cultural excellence, you know, over the last few decades. And that’s sad. And I think it’s a combination of, you know, people just not putting the appropriate amount of money into this space such that things can be done at a high quality and people not really digging into their faith in a way that unleashes it. Right. And it’s still very possible. I mean, you look at the music of U2, right, which is one of the most popular rock bands in the world. They’ve talked about how faith motivated their. It doesn’t mean every single song they have is like praise song. Right. But they end every concert with a song. Right. I mean, it’s remarkable. And obviously they’re at the top of their field. And so what excites me about this is I do feel there’s now a movement among a lot of creators and leaders in the space to restore excellence to art that comes from a Christian perspective. And again, I say it that way because not every piece of art they produce has to be quote unquote, Christian art. Right. It doesn’t have to be genre. It doesn’t have to have a salvation moment at the end. It could just be that faith is a part of the fabric of what they’re producing, that when they create something, it’s from the perspective of someone who shares those values. And I think, you know, some of the folks that you highlight, Jon Erwin and Kelly Merriman, who we’ve been privileged to partner with, are right at the forefront of that with people like Dallas Jenkins, John Gunn, Jeremy Latcham, you know, some of the other creators out there. I think they’re doing remarkable work. And what it’s taken is this meeting of people thoroughly committed to excellence who are also committed to their faith, coming together with sources of capital who can give them the weight of financial help in order to bring those pieces to life. Right. Kelly And John’s latest project right now that will be coming out in just a couple of weeks, for example, is called House of David. And kind of following in the footsteps of the Chosen, It’s a retelling of the story of the biblical David done by a set of Christian creators who are as dedicated to both the quality of the cinema they’re producing, as well as the fidelity of the story, as Dallas has been with The Chosen. I’ve gotten to see the first episode already and I’ve gotten to see clips of some of the rest because we were an investor in Wonder. And it’s phenomenal, right? They partnered with Amazon. They put a ton of money into it. They filmed on location in Greece. They have extraordinary actors, extraordinary scriptwriters. And it’s honestly one of the best TV shows I’ve had the privilege of watching in a very long time. And it’s shocking because it’s it’s our stuff, right? It’s the biblical cinematic universe. It’s this idea that some of the most interesting characters in history were outlined in the Bible. And we haven’t told those stories appropriately. Like there hasn’t been a big movie or TV show on David, which is crazy. And then they’re going to mix that with other creations that they touch on, like things from American history. There’s a movie coming out about the Wright brothers, for example, on the Wonder Project platform. And then there are sitcoms that they’re producing that will be infused with themes related to faith, but will be done in the Hollywood level of excellence you might expect from a mainstream network show. And I think that’s what’s exciting now is we really rely on the creators and the capital coming together at the same time. The more capital that flows in, the more creators will take a risk and step out in faith. The more excellent creators who take a risk and step out in faith, the more capital will come in. And I hope we’re at the very beginning of a virtuous cycle where both the capital and the creators are lining up to paint a vision of hope and beauty and truth and goodness in the world that’s so deeply aligned with what we believe about human nature and about the world around us. 

Richard Cunningham Man, that’s awesome. It’s exciting in the House of David. I mean, I’ll say this, there’s some not G or PG rated scenes in the Old Testament, and I know David’s story and as the great warrior and battler. But it’s exciting and a little bit riveting. And yeah, maybe there’s some a more intense content, if you will, to come in that. So looking forward to that. And then the other thing I’ll say, John, that you just remind me of is, you know, I look at the I come from the sports background. I have zero artistic talents whatsoever. And just like that, you know, since 323 and that idea of like competing and doing things unto the Lord not on demand, I have just been refreshed lately by just the sense of revival across major sports platforms, college athletics, NFL football. It seems like every post-game interview right now, there’s just something going on and a movement of the spirit that I just want to see continue to flourish. And what an awesome time for now, Content on the backs of the things like The Chosen have done so well. 

John Coleman Yeah, thank goodness for all those courageous athletes speaking about faith. Right? Like I think, you know, this has always been a topic because I think athletes so often realize their own physical limitations and really their reliance on something greater than themselves. But so many outspoken voices. You know, Tim Tebow is at the forefront of this for such a long time. Colt McCoy was obviously right there with him. I think Kirk Cousins brought it to life in the Netflix. What was it the first season of the football documentary on quarterbacks? Yeah, that’s right. We had Patrick Mahomes and I think it was Deshaun Watson and Kirk Cousins made just such a positive impact in how open he was about his faith and even this year and that, you know, the run up to the college football national championship. You know, there were so many awesome stories of faith coming out of that. And I realize by even talking about college football, we’re immediately alienating a ton of people on the pod. But I grew up in FSU fans and Notre Dame was a hated sports enemy at the time. But, you know, seeing the way the coach at Notre Dame comported himself, the way that he conducted that team, how open he was about his faith, some of the players on both sides of that game and how open they were about their faith in athletes or to be credited because I think so many of them are using their platform for good right now. And it’s so encouraging to me to watch the cultural influence that they can have by doing so. That’s obviously granted to them because they are so focused on running the race as if to win it literally some sometimes and by the platform that that gives them to influence others, you. 

Richard Cunningham Know, and it reminds I mean, Tebow is on those who are able to watch the conference at the end of the conference. And he’s talking about rescuing image barriers. And we’ll get here. That can be our last topic as we get into the venture capital side of this and the work of Wesleyan and the team at Eagle Venture Fund. But I just could not not laugh listening to Tim Tebow almost like get out of breath. He gets so excited and animated as he’s presenting. He’s just so fired up all the time. But okay, coming back to a little bit more of a mainstream investment topic, real estate and the real estate kind of market. An asset class was visited through this lens, an idea of stamping out loneliness and building social connection via a sense of place and the ministry that was highlighted as one that’s a great friend of the movement is apartment life. Pete Kelley, CEO. And this statue startled me. 40 million people the size of the state of California live in apartments in our nation, and 95% of them are unchurched. And just thinking about real estate and the opportunity to engage people and where they spend their time as a ministry opportunity, but also this angle of apartment life providing an annual average 200 K and the bottom line benefit to multifamily owners and operators because of reduced tenant turnover, staffing turnover is lowered and then just greater leasing rates and occupancy rates. And so some of your comments challenge the the real estate space and where you’re seeing encouragement, but also where opportunities kind of still for work to be done. 

John Coleman Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s interesting to me, churches will often talk about wanting to reach the younger generation, right? They’ll often want to talk about reaching the unchurched, reaching the new immigrant, reaching those who are struggling financially, etc.. And if you think about just a platform tailor made for that, the multifamily housing space or apartment space, is that right? I mean, disproportionately you get to reach younger people disproportionately. You often get to reach new immigrants who are coming to the country because of affordability. Disproportionately, you meet those who are struggling, maybe financially, especially depending on the type of apartment complex, multifamily housing unit. You know, these are often folks who are at a different phase in their life. And so it’s just this concentrated, incredible ministry opportunity. And you get to meet people literally where they live, you know, which is another kind of church phrase, meet people where they live. Well, we can actually meet them where they live, right? Not metaphorically. You can actually go to the place. That they live and create a community that’s welcoming to them, that not only introduces them to their creator, but helps them to build relationships with others there. And to me, this is a beautiful encapsulation of the thesis that I talked about earlier in companies that you can do well by doing good in this space. You can create financial outcomes that are positive while also creating personal or human outcomes which are positive in apartment life. And the statistics they showed are such a big component of that. You know, if you build a community that people want to live in, that they’re dedicated to, where they know their neighbors, where they feel uplifted, where they’re flourishing, where they’re connected to faith. It turns out turnovers, less people pay their rent on time. Better people stick together to stop things like crime in those communities better. They’re just a host of positive outcomes that come from building a community in which people want to live and can be themselves and really flourish as individuals that accompany this incredible human impact that you can have in a way that’s that’s different than almost anywhere else. And if you think about the ways in which you can minister to people, right. We talk a lot about ministering to people at work through company investing. Maybe you can them 40 hours a week. Certainly it’s important to minister them at church, know whether they come Wednesday nights or Sundays or join small groups or have other ministries. And then if you’re able to catch them at home. Right. If you can find ways to make ministry into each of those areas, you’re really surrounding someone, right? With positive and uplifting encouragement, with community, with ministry. And so I think apartment life has obviously been at the forefront of that. I think it’s an incredibly important industry, and they’re working with a ton of great investment managers right now. And I’ll say in the state driven investing space, real estate is about as high impact and asset classes exists and Faith Driven Investor thing. Right now there are a ton of great real estate managers out there that are operating from a place of faith, that are working in multifamily and other areas that are working with apartment life and other ministries that are so dedicated to creating these types of communities that serve people spiritually as well as physically. And so if I were to tell Faith Driven Investor to take a hard look at something today, I would definitely point him to real estate, because I think it’s just such a tangible and innovative way in which to put capital to work in a way that fundamentally improves people’s lives in an asset class that almost everyone is in writer needs to be in. And so I think it’s a cool opportunity. And apartment life has been so central to that, as we heard. 

Richard Cunningham You know, what about John, in the spirit of just marks in the markets, I know you’re not a full time real estate investor, but just any comments on like the interest rate, environment, new administration. One of the things that we all tangibly feel the effects of that is just kind of real estate costs and just the real estate deal market. Any thoughts there? 

John Coleman Yeah. So I put on my investment hat without the faith driven component of it. Just speaking about returns, I’m still reasonably cautious about a lot of the real estate sector right now. I think in particular office space, it’s just a big question mark to me. I still think we haven’t seen the shakeout of return to work and how that’s going to work. Whether people physically use offices, how much it’s now permanently hybrid, where people work based on shifting demographics. I mean, now with the new administration, obviously there’s a push to get rid of a lot of federal properties, for example, which in certain markets is going to flood the zone, so to speak, with available properties like DC, etc.. And so in general, I’m pretty cautious about office right now on New high that rates are still very high. And so there are a lot of office buildings that are underwater right now that may have leases resetting or borrowing resetting at unfavorable rates, etc.. Multifamily, I feel a lot better about, you know, there are short term challenges with interest rates, certainly. And there’s this disconnect between renting and owning right now. And owning is substantially more expensive than renting right now, which is a bizarre disconnect in the market brought about by the new mortgage rates and house prices. But if I think in secular terms, secular meaning long term, not in the absence of faith term, I, I mean, two things. But if I think long term, you know, the United States has too little housing. We have a deficit of something like 7 million units of housing or something on the order that that has to get resolved, despite the fact that we’re seeing reduction in immigration right now with the new administration. The US is still people are having babies at about replacement rate. We still are one of the top destinations for immigrants in the world. We have this deficit of existing housing. That’s a structural issue. And so I’m confident that that continues to be a good place to invest because we simply haven’t built or refurbished enough housing to take care of the existing demand in the country. And so there may be short term blips in that. But if I’m thinking over the course of 5 or 10 years, I feel really good about that space. And then it’s probably a mix for other things like retail. For, for things like industrial storage space, etc. A lot of it’s so market dependent or dependent on the sub asset class. But I continue to think there are opportunities in real assets right now. And I’d remind people that we are, though interest rates feel high right now. We’re basically at long term averages for interest rates right now. You know, if you go back to the 80, 7650s, interest rates were much higher. It was this period 2008 to 2021. It was bizarre. I mean, interest rates were approaching zero in most places in the world. And so we are much more a normal interest rate now. So I’m confident the markets can function with those interest rates. I think it may just take a while for everyone’s expectations and financials to reset from this 15 year period or more of unusually low interest rates. 

Richard Cunningham It’s good. It’s well said. Well, thanks for the commentary there. And this takes us into kind of our last theme of the conference, if you will. And so some of the voices you heard from were Jeremy Lin and highlighting Linsanity, family office and just the approach they’ve taken to. Almost a sports mindset to being excellent in their investing, their giving in their stewardship to kind of what all God has entrusted to Jeremy through his kind of storied NBA run. Then we heard from Tebow, as we mentioned, and his just epic out of breath, just passion towards rescuing image barriers and the 50 million people tragedy that is human trafficking. $150 billion annual enterprise that dovetailed into West Lions. Wade Myers and the team at Eagle Venture Fund doing the risky, audacious thing they’re doing, which is standing up a venture capital fund to find for profit solutions to choke out the human trafficking industry. It really is an industry. And so they’re thinking about this in a, you know, financial capitalistic mindset of how can we raise the expense line and human trafficking to where it’s no longer a profitable business? So this gets into family office investing, John In a family office being on mission, it gets into influencers wading into these waters. This also gets into the venture capital and private equity space and funding businesses on purpose. Just what what comments would you make about kind of faith driven investing in the opportunity for engagement on the front lines with for profit businesses? 

John Coleman Yeah, for sure. So. I think family offices and high net worth individuals or individuals generally are always going to be the innovators in this space and have both a remarkable opportunity and responsibility. The truth of the matter is in any innovative approach to investing. So you mentioned Eagle Venture Fund and what they’re doing with human trafficking, faith driven investing broadly. Institutions are always going to be more conservative, right, because they’re managing money for others. If you’re a college endowment or if you’re a Baptist foundation, you have a responsibility to your students. You have a responsibility to the pastors, missionaries that you serve. You’re going to be much more conservative about new approaches to investing as you should be. Right. Because you have this fiduciary responsibility to others when you’re running a family office. When you’re investing on behalf of yourself. You can take risks. You can do new things that are difficult for institutions, whether you’re Susanne Daniels or Jeremy Lin or Tim Tebow or any of the other great families that we’ve engaged. And I think that’s an opportunity, because often family offices can act on new, attractive opportunities faster than institutions can that can lead to higher returns. I think it’s also a responsibility because that means that if someone’s going to drive to push the envelope of what fate driven investing can mean to stand up things like Eagle’s Human Trafficking Fund, to stand up new public equity funds that are focused on positive integration and engagement with companies to invest in developing countries in new and innovative ways. That’s going to happen through individuals and family offices. It really is. And families have to make a conscious decision like the learning hands have, like others have to really accept some of the tradeoffs of that risk return spectrum in order to push the envelope of what’s possible. And what I love seeing is schematically like Tim Tebow lending his voice to this anti-human trafficking movement broadly and then also lending his voice to the innovative private market solutions to that through Eagle, through others, and then lending capital to that. Also, through his investment, he’s able to drive that conversation and drive innovation in that space in a way that few institutions could. Right. Jeremy Lin is doing the same in other areas. We know awesome networth individuals, family offices that are doing the same in a variety of areas. And so my message to family offices listening would be look, engage in this space. No one’s going to be able to push this forward if you don’t. Right. We see that one of our friends and partners, Henry, has been at the very forefront of this with his personal portfolio. I know each of us has probably done this more than the average person, at least in terms of our personal portfolios. And I just think there’s a remarkable opportunity for individuals and family offices to play the leading role, the standard bearer role in normalizing these funds and proving that they can work and proving these investments can work so that these massive pools of institutional capital can eventually participate and drive the movement even more comprehensively. Right. Because they’re likely to be more conservative. And I just love some of the innovative approaches that are taking shape in these private funds. Right. I think it’s great that Eagle is entering into a space that has such great need and trying to set up a concentrated, positively themed fund in that space. There are other examples that aren’t quite as overtly missional as an anti-human trafficking fund. But, you know, we’re going through the process right now of investing in a health care oriented fund where the manager that is driving through a number of faith aligned practices into the portfolio of all these physician practices that they work with in a way that cares for patients, cares for doctors, cares for nurses, cares for staff that they might not experience elsewhere. And so I’m hopeful that just like in real estate, that that continues to flourish. I really appreciate folks like Wes who are driving that conversation forward, and I appreciate family offices, especially those with big public platforms like Jeremy Lin and Tim Tebow leaning into this space to help make progress alongside those managers who are trying to create these funds. 

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I like that. And I also appreciated how faith driven kind of at the end introduced another European based venture fund, Roy Ellis, and they teed up this concept of cathedral thinking and saying, Hey, you’re being invited into a mission and an opportunity that you actually won’t see the end of, not on this side of eternity. And it’s kind of like the invitation to create a cathedral where this is going to be a decades long project. But think long term, think patient, think, partnership mindset. I mean, that’s just what it’s going to take to attack some of these problems. So, John, we’re going to go to our closing question here just in a moment. But one more time, in the spirit of kind of marks on the markets. I know we’ve done a real deep dive on just kind of all the themes and topics of the conference. Any macro quick hitters from you of just kind of things we’ve seen in the press lately? I know there’s a lot of talk on tariffs and those is a negotiation tactic for something that might come to existence, government cost cutting and the work of doge there is. Generally markets are up. The S&P 500, Russell, 2000 are both up around 3% year to date. They’ve seen some volatile days. There’s the arms race, of course, with Nvidia having the massive hit a couple of weeks back because of Deep Sea kind of coming out and saying, Hey, we’ve accomplished what you’ve accomplished with less of the cost. Just any kind of macro quick hitters you leave the audience with. Before we go to our final question. 

John Coleman Man, I don’t know that that’s a quick question. I’ll be super brief. I mean, two comments. One is I genuinely think we’re on the verge of a series of technological innovations that may be greater than at any point in history, which is kind of a bold statement between artificial intelligence, robotics, breakthroughs in energy technology, quantum computing. We could be on the precipice of a series of technologies that fundamentally change the way in which we live more than and more rapidly than any prior technological innovations. The only thing I could even compare it to would be the breakthrough in nuclear technology during the Second World War, which was less of a day to day thing in the sense that it was a threat. You know, it became an energy source, but it was a little bit slower. And thankfully the weapons technology was not broadly used. But artificial intelligence, robotics, quantum computing, augmented reality, virtual reality. I think 20 years from now, the world will look so fundamentally different than today that we won’t even be able to process the pace of innovation. And so I think that is one big macro theme I’m watching in markets. We saw the deep sea. I think Nvidia lost something like $600 Billion in value in one day. It’s since come back. It’s a big company big nominal loss 17%. And I think all of us are just in for a period where we’re going to get whiplash from the different innovations that are happening. And none of us know exactly how those will end up, but we do know the world will be fundamentally different. And then on the political side, again, regardless of your partizan affiliation, I was in D.C. the last couple of days. I don’t know that we’ve ever seen a presidential administration in modern history act so quickly on so many different fronts. You know, there are multiple announcements each day through executive orders, through initiatives, through international agreements that in normal times would be momentous announcements by any administration in what’s happened in these first few weeks has been an extraordinary pace of change. Right? I don’t know that we fully have processed how that will end up. President Trump has obviously been using tariffs as a negotiating tool with China, with Canada, with Mexico. He’s been using other tools of places like Panama as well. Just yesterday, as we’re recording this, he had a public statement with Prime Minister Netanyahu from Israel and announced that the U.S. was going to occupy Gaza, which may or may not come to fruition. I think the common theme in all of that is just, again, the pace of change being greater than we’ve experienced in recent history. I expect this to be largely a good year because I think many of the technological advancements are going to be good for the world ultimately. I think some of the policies that are being pursued will ultimately end up good, but I think there will be a great deal of volatility as we see things change so rapidly, whether from the political environment or the technological environment. I think we’ll see more winners and losers take shape really quickly, like stocks climbing out of nowhere like Palantir has over the last couple of months and stocks collapsing when their fundamental premise for being is eroded by artificial intelligence or by policy. And so I would hang on tight, guys. I think 2025 is going to be quite a ride in investment markets. 

Richard Cunningham Well, I think that’s just a good overall analysis. Well, let’s take us home with this, John. When we love to ask at the end of each and every podcast, I haven’t gotten to ask you it in a couple of episodes now because we’ve had some outside guests, but what’s the Lord been teaching you through his word lately? 

John Coleman Yeah, and I think I may have actually mentioned this on a prior podcast, but it came up again recently for obvious reasons. Given that I’m very interested in and focus on this House of David release coming up in a few weeks. I’ve been thinking about the story of David and, you know, one of the central tenets of the story of David, particularly relative to Saul, is just the importance of remembering God in the successes you experience in life and in honoring God with those successes in obeying him, rather than seeking your own understanding of events. You know, Saul eventually went off the rails because he forgot where he came from with God. God had anointed Saul. He had lifted up Saul. He had placed trust and saw it made him the King of Israel. And as Saul was lifted up from this tribe of Benjamin, which was a very small tribe, right? He forgot all that and he started disobeying God. He started worrying more about the politics than about his faith and about what God commanded of him. He started to believe in himself more than he believed in God and to attribute his success to him. Self rather than to God. And for that, he lost his position. Right. And his family lost their position. Whereas David just seemed to constantly keep and he obviously had major problems throughout his life, but especially in the early days, had just that cognizance of how reliant on God he was and how dedicated he needed to be with God and how courageous he could be if God was with him. Right. And that combination of humility and courage that David represented the humility to understand that we are not the authors of our own story, at least not fully, that we are servants of God and that we should give honor and glory to him. But the courage that comes from that promise is just so remarkable. I think that’s part of why he was a man after God’s own heart. That combination of humility and courage. And that’s something I hope we seek or I seek every day. Right. Which is the courage to do bold things, the courage to act, the courage to be definitive, but the humility to remember that when those things go right, that we are not the author of that story, that we are relying on someone else, and that when they start going right, we can’t just stop obeying all the promises that got us there that we need to see God and faith, that we need to continue to discern his will and that we need to be humble in our pursuit of the next thing. So that’s been very much on my mind, really. 

Richard Cunningham That’s good. Let’s get one more preview for All movie. Enjoy yours and show watchers out there that later this month, House of David will be coming out so late February on Amazon. So John Coleman I was deeply inspired by Friday’s feature and investor conference. Really fun to kind of get to unpack and revisit some of the themes with you. Thank you for the commentary, as always. And friends, we will catch you next time. Thank you so much. 

John Coleman Thanks, Richard. 

Speaker 4 We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see your listeners come in for more than 100 countries. Faith driven investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers, the questions you have and find great community as they do so there’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter at Faith driven investing.org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive Producer Justin Foreman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Drags Audio and Editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb. 

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Meet Brett Hagler, who transformed from a tech entrepreneur to pioneering market-based solutions for the global housing crisis through New Story. As one of the first nonprofits accepted into Y Combinator, New Story is revolutionizing how we think about affordable housing by combining philanthropy, technology, and investment capital to create sustainable homeownership opportunities in Latin America. Learn how New Story achieved a 100% repayment rate on their housing projects while delivering both strong financial returns and life-changing social impact for thousands of families.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ -following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 3 Hey, everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosts and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Great to have you with us. What is our pod for the end of February? We’re joined by a really special guest today, Brett Hagler, who will be joining Luke and I in the FDI podcast studio. Brett’s the CEO and co -founder of New Story. Luke, Brett, great to have you guys in here. Brett, pumped to hear about some of your work with New Story and what you guys are doing to help thousands of families get homes and properties in Latin America. This will be a really fun episode and I think a fun kind of angle for Faith Driven Investors to look at the problem of homelessness and all of that. But before we dive in, Brett, and get some of who you are and what you’ve been working on, how are you guys doing?

Brett Hagler Doing great. I’m excited to be on with you guys. Love the pod. So it’s an honor to be here.

Luke Roush It’s not often, Richard, that we get to focus on problems that affect two billion people, billion with a B. And so the scope and scale of what we’re going to talk about today has me excited as well, and nobody’s been more on the front lines than what Brett’s doing here. So this is an exciting day.

Richard Cunningham It is. So Brett, Goldman Sachs called you one of the top 100 most intriguing entrepreneurs. We got to hear about that in and of itself. The word intriguing, which I just love. And you’re also a founder of a nonprofit. And I know it’s got for -profit angles, which we’ll get into here in a little bit with this being the FDI pod specifically. But man, maybe just start us with a little bit of your kind of story and who you are, way God kind of rescued you in an awesome way post -college and just how that led into new story.

Brett Hagler Sure. Yeah, I’ll just give everybody context. We’ll give some background, but this is definitely about investment. So we’ll talk more about how we believe and I’ve learned after 10 years of doing this, that investment and market -based solutions is, in my opinion, the best way to help the most people. So we’ll get there and I’ll kind of talk the back story. So yeah, I, from a faith perspective, didn’t grow up a strong believer at all, kind of lost my way in high school. It was a stereotypical jock in high school. I had a very rare form of cancer my senior year in high school. And that changed a lot of my plans. I was going to try to play basketball, college, blah, blah. And, you know, during that time, it was, I was definitely praying. I was definitely hoping God would save me because it was serious cancer. And he did. And instead of me kind of turning to him and, you know, making my life surrendered to God, I kind of went the opposite way. And so I went off to college at Florida State and yeah, lived a life that if you would have asked somebody what I’m doing today, then this would probably be the last thing that they would have said and just wasn’t following the Lord was using a lot of maybe skills is the wrong word, but using characteristics that God gave me for a lot of the wrong things. And that led to just all types of pursuits. You know, I call it, someone told me it was the three G’s, which is gratitude and generosity and God. It was a girl’s gold and glory. And I’m sure, you know, a lot of people, of course, have kind of gone through that phase and obviously learned that it’s empty. There’s really nothing there. And thankfully about a year and a half after college, the Holy Spirit met me. And I loved entrepreneurship. I love startups. I loved business in college. I was, you know, reading a book a week about all the biographies that many people listening probably read. I was obsessed, but I wasn’t a believer. And I was lost pursuing, you know, the things that don’t matter. And I did a first startup right out of college and it was a for -profit company and how God met me was actually through a venture capitalist and it just kind of goes to show for those listening. I had no idea he was a believer, but I was very attracted to what he had done, what he accomplished, how he held himself. And he was a role model from afar. And I was lucky enough to get a chance to sit down with him for lunch. I was a young 23 year old kid. I kind of begged to get on his calendar, blah, blah, blah. And I get there and I asked him about leadership and maybe if he wants to invest and long story short, in a very natural way, he starts talking about Jesus and I kind of asked him a question of how he thinks about leadership and he told me about servant leadership and I’m like, what’s that? And that was kind of a softball for him to talk about Jesus and leadership. And from that point on, Luke and Richard, that was kind of the spark that God used to get my attention. I mean, to kind of reframe what I thought living a life, surrendered to Jesus looks like. And it was done through a venture capitalist investor was kind of the spark that caught my attention. And after that, I kind of make a total 180, go all in, get baptized. Really nobody else, none of my friends were doing this. It was all, you know, kind of by myself with the Holy Spirit. Shortly after that, two things happened. My best friend, which many people probably have heard of or know is a guy named Mike Arrieta, we grew up in middle school together and he kind of shortly after me started following the Lord and so the two of us together in our early twenties started just running after Jesus and that ended up taking myself and Mike on a missions trip to Haiti and that was back in 2014 and on that trip is when the kind of an original spark for news story was created and that was just seeing, you know, the devastating, devastating reality of what it looks like to not have life’s most basic human needs. And that was kind of the spark of it all.

Luke Roush How did you think about, so I’ve been on trips like that, where you kind of have a spark and your heart breaks for something that you see, you realize like, wait a second, there’s gotta be a better way. Coming out of that trip. How did you contextualize, like, what was the on -ramp into actually getting in the game the way you’d got in the game following that experience?

Brett Hagler Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, I was, I was pretty young. You know, I was 24 years old. I loved entrepreneurship. You know, my faith was on fire. And so I had a lot of energy and I had a lot of passion. I would say, you know, people talk about ignorance is bliss. And if you know then you wouldn’t have got started of all the problems, et cetera. And, you know, as cliche as it sounds, I just tried to start small. You know, I think if I would’ve tried to say, how do we create systematic change in multiple countries and get into disrupting the financing system and redefine what it looks like for property rights, like, I didn’t know enough, you know, I didn’t know enough, but I got started. I got started very small. I said, you know, how can we try to literally help a few families get access to life -changing housing? And then through that action, God introduced me to two other co -founders in Matthew and Alexandria, and we were trying to come at this problem back then just in a different way with a unique angle, and back then we used even more technology and we applied to Y Combinator. My background again, was not doing things in the developing world. I didn’t have this kind of a nonprofit background. I loved the stuff Y Combinator was preaching and teaching. And so we applied and we actually became one of the first nonprofits to ever go through Y Combinator. And so to answer your question, Luke, that was God putting a lot of things together in a short period of time, and we kind of got started pretty fast.

Luke Roush So wait a second, how many nonprofits, I mean, you said it was one of the first ones, I mean, it had to be maybe the first one.

Brett Hagler It was the second one.

Unidentified Yeah

Luke Roush Okay. So what did that look like? I mean, you show up at that time, they were still doing all their cohorts in Silicon Valley. Is that right?

Brett Hagler Yes.

Luke Roush So you still have to tell people, Hey, this is kind of what I’m fired up about. Like how did that go? I mean, need to hear more.

Richard Cunningham Yeah. So we moved out to San Francisco. I ended up living there for almost five years and we went through the summer of 2015 was our Y Combinator batch and I freaking loved it. It was incredible. I mean, I felt at the beginning and during most of it, like the highest level imposter syndrome that you could imagine because it was so hard to get into, I didn’t have any prestigious accolades or fancy schools or, you know, and so it just felt like, wow, God really wanted me and us there. And of this organization that’s trying to help vulnerable families in Haiti and El Salvador that don’t have basic housing, like what are we doing here? And honestly, we just made the most of it. We were on fire. We were so passionate. It was definitely a season that I do not regret how much we worked and how much energy we had because it truly felt like a once in a lifetime opportunity that God created. And so it also really shaped the DNA of how we think about building new story. And even though what we’re doing today is entirely different strategy wise than we were doing 10 years ago, the DNA of how to think, how to imagine, how to get started, all the things that the best startups kind of learn and go through. We were so lucky to be taught that at a young age. And it really shaped my thinking, our DNA. And I’m just so grateful for that experience.

Richard Cunningham That’s cool. All right. So selfishly, I kind of have to like recap the story here from my own brain, not as fast as you guys, but there’s a lot of fun synergies and overlap too that I’m loving. So you got young jock, Luke and I resonate deeply with that. Just like the sports world, Luke more than me. And then you go off the Florida state, John Coleman, our other FDI podcast host will love that. He’s a Tallahassee native. We’ll love the Florida state roots. The Haiti kind of awakening moment and the kind of birthing of new story alongside our buddy, Mike Arietta, another kind of fun synergy. Ironically, Luke is where Suzanne Daniel, one of our FDI podcast guests a few weeks back, who also just spoke on the FDI conference is where she kind of came alive for the Pilgrim Foundation and Suzanne Daniel story. So a lot of just like fun threads here, but anyways, young founder, a powerful experience in Haiti goes to YC with a nonprofit has this like amazing kind of business building experience. And I’ve got friends here in town, Brett, who are great admirers. I’m here in Austin, Texas, Chandler Bolton, particular, another young founder who just like loves watching you run a nonprofit, such a missional organization, like he runs his for -profit venture. And I’m sure that was kind of bred into you in that YC background and some of the reading you did and just the passion you naturally have. So help me understand kind of like the original theory of change of new story, what you brought into YC, why they accepted you in the first place. And then you mentioned the mission and kind of the way you’re attacking the mission, if you will, has changed in present day, kind of bring us from that journey that started in 2014 to kind of where we are now.

Brett Hagler Totally. Yeah. So our mission today is to empower families to transform their lives through land and home ownership. And so that goes back to what Luke mentioned. Unfortunately, there’s almost 2 billion people today that live in inadequate housing. That does not mean 2 billion people on the street, but it’s 2 billion people that are living in conditions that are completely inadequate, that you would not want anybody, you know, to live in. You probably wouldn’t want your dog to live in. And, you know, the size of that is so big. It can be overwhelming, right? And so we are doing our best to help those families have access to life -changing land and home ownership. So that hasn’t changed or why hasn’t changed. Our big North star hasn’t changed, but how we go about accomplishing that has completely changed. And I, you know, tell my team all the time that you learn by doing and action produces information, right? And so in the beginning, our first like five years, and we’re 10 years old now, we love innovation. We love technology. We still will have that’s in us. But in the first five years, I think we over index on building technology and trying a lot of like ways to cut down the cost of a house with technology or more novel approaches, which is important, but we weren’t seeing the full picture. So with housing, there are so many pieces to the puzzle. And when you think about first principles with housing and land, in my opinion, it’s not about how do you reduce the cost to build the actual unit by 20 percent. It’s the whole value chain. So you have to think of, well, where’s the land? How do you buy the land? What about the infrastructure that comes in, the sewage, the plumbing, the roads, the electricity? How do you work with municipalities to get permitting and fast track everything? How do you help a family build a credit profile? How do you then help that family have access to legally titled land that can be recognized by a bank so they can unlock a mortgage? These are all things that we weren’t thinking about our first five years because we were just trying to focus on like the end product of the house. And so now, like 80 percent of organization is focused on all those beginning steps, the first principles approach to catalyze. Then you’re able to bring in whether it’s normal construction or a novel technology after you have the foundation set. So that was kind of the biggest learning. And when we realized that we had to completely evolve really our strategy and our strategy started to evolve more towards how do you think about investment, how do you think about helping families to be at a place where you could underwrite them for a mortgage? And that means it’s the basics of capitalism. It’s like, OK, they need to have a credit profile. They need to have legal property title that has to have market value and able to unlock bigger financing. So that was kind of the big learning.

Luke Roush Well, you know, here in the US, right, we talked about systems being broken and they are. But my family lived in Indonesia for a handful of years. And you start to realize in a lot of these countries that are home for these two billion folks, there are a lot of systemic things, whether it’s just basic property ownership rights, title, this idea of like title insurance that we get in the US that is largely a dumb expense. But it does kind of help to reassure everyone that you own what you think you own. You know, this concept in most of the countries, probably where you’ve operated, Brett, is somewhat foreign. And so until you kind of get after some of these systemic things and you realize just a multifaceted nature of the problem, you can focus on the end goal at the expense of like these process steps that need to be in place to be able to ensure that if you get the end goal done, it actually sticks and it’s generationally changing the trajectory of your family. So maybe talk a little bit about like how you discovered what else is required to be able to address issues that you’re ultimately addressing really successfully.

Brett Hagler Yeah, I’m going to walk you guys kind of through one project example. I think that’ll help. And so this project, it’s all market based. The unit economics of it are positive. It’s not subsidized on purpose, and we can come back to that. And it also brings in investment. So what we’ve learned is that, like, if you think about an underserved family that is around the poverty line or is a low income family, they don’t have a few main things that they need for long term homeownership. Right. So they usually don’t have a trustworthy credit profile. That’s a problem. You usually can’t trust or validate the land that they own. So if you can’t trust the land property title and if you don’t really know who owns what land. And then thirdly, if you don’t know the value of that land, how are you ever going to then go and try to get a loan and use collateral when you don’t have it. Right. And so what we’ve done is we’ve said, hey, why don’t we start first with land ownership as kind of the pathway to homeownership? And so we’ve created this model that we think is definitely effective, but it’s simple. And it’s this it’s we go in, we buy land with investment. And let’s say we buy enough land for 500 housing lots. We’ll then work with 500 families to make payments, to buy their land first before the house. And so families will go on a monthly payment program to pay for their land. And then we also are using investment to bring in infrastructure, life changing infrastructure so that they can have clean water and electricity and plumbing, Wi -Fi, telecom, et cetera. And so they’re paying for that while our investment is putting all the infrastructure in. And then once they’re done paying, well, they’ve now paid, which is about 12 to 24 months. So they have a credit profile that they didn’t have before. They now own a valuable asset, which is a land plot that has appreciated in value because the infrastructure is now installed. And that can be appraised and has a market value. And now they’re in a totally different place once they own that valuable piece of land to then go get a home loan, because you can actually underwrite it. It’s the basics, the beauty of capitalism. Or if they want, they could build their own house. But for us, we’ve learned, ah, the catalyzing thing is like to be obsessed with land ownership in the beginning, because that’s the gateway to make everything else happen. And so that’s what we’ve really focused on. It’s been quite successful. The last project we just did was about 400 lots. We ended up having a 100 percent payment rate for the portfolio. We exceeded returns and would have, by any measure, good market returns for that project. And now families are in the phase of starting to build homes or get a home loan. So I kind of that’s a way to think about it.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, that’s helpful. So you’ve got operations in Mexico, El Salvador, Bolivia and Haiti. You kind of explained what one project can look like there. But putting yourself in the shoes of a faith driven investor listening to this podcast, there’s a number of quote unquote risks to mitigate. Like there’s a very catalytic opportunity here, but it’s international work in Latin America. I’m curious about the mechanics of the investment and how you kind of think about returns from kind of this new story capital side of the operation. You mentioned 100 percent repayment rate, which is really powerful. So I’d love to hear you double click on that a little bit more. But I’m a faith driven investor, someone who’s motivated by this solution. I’m thinking about it. And I’m like, am I really willing to put market rate capital on the line here? Or is this a more patient concessionary play or something people you find more doing from a philanthropic angle? Because I think how how you thought about this is really powerful.

Brett Hagler Yeah, so those are super important questions, you know, from the highest level. My belief is for this to really scale, which for us, I feel like God has called us to truly try to impact millions of people with this model. I believe you have to get market returns. That doesn’t mean that we’re trying to have the top one percent returns of all time. But I believe you need to have good returns. That’s like a double scoop of one good returns. And then two truly 10 out of 10 life changing impact. Right. I think we’ve all kind of gotten different views in the last couple of years on ESG, impact investing, like all that. So much of that. You can’t draw the direct correlation to the life changing impact. Right. And so with this, you get both. And it’s just my belief that you’re not going to get to big scale if you don’t have the good returns, because you’re not going to be incentivizing other lenders, other investors to do this. Right. And so what we want to do from an impact perspective is we want to demonstrate what this looks like. We want to say, hey, there is a massive underserved market. It is deeply undersupplied. But there is demand. And we’ve proven this out. And we believe that you have to have a fair profit with a good return. And if that then you can really grow it. And it’s somewhat, I want to say, unlimited, but it has so much more potential for scale. So that’s our belief. Now, getting there, obviously, it’s challenging. And so I’d say the main thing is we have a team that is obsessed with this problem. Right. And we are building a team around that. We’re building our case studies around that. And we’re trying to be the best in the world at this particular niche, which turns out to be a pretty large market. And we’ll go into all the details of like how we hedge the risk and all of that. But we try our best to have it as risk -migrated as possible, knowing that there’s a whole waterfall of how we do that. But we can dive into that if you want, Richard.

Luke Roush One of the things that I’m struck by, you know, so we talked about the enormity of the problem and one of the things that you were just pointing towards is the importance of market -based solutions. And so the statistic, I think, is, you know, only 10 percent of the current housing need would be solved if all of global philanthropy and government housing subsidies were put in play. So like back to how do you activate market -based solutions at scale so that this isn’t just kind of a bandaid. It’s not just, you know, one out of 10 communities, it’s 10 out of 10 communities that can be reached. Yeah, maybe just talk a little bit about that journey. I mean, you know, my perspective, again, in like sort of emerging markets, if you can have less than a 5 percent non -performing loan and PL rate, you’re doing really great. And so for you to be at 100 percent payment rate, really remarkable. Maybe just talk about peel that back a little bit. Why is it so successful?

Brett Hagler Yeah. So let me go through two parts there. First, on the you mentioned some of the math, you know, that was a big learning that we had five years ago. Jim Collins talks about the brutal facts. Find out the brutal facts. And that was a big one where we were like, OK, if we’re just going to raise philanthropy, we’re going to be the best in the world at raising philanthropy. And we got all the government subsidies. How big of a dent could we put in this problem? And it was very depressing to know that it’s literally less than 10 percent. Right. That’s just the enormity of the cost of the housing crisis. And so we’re like, OK, we have to shift so that families can participate in the pool of capital, which is capital markets and lending that actually is big enough to make a significant debt. So that was like the big idea, the big learning. And then so the 100 percent payment portfolio. Let me walk you through that real quick. So in our model, if we do, let’s say, a thousand lot projects, right? We have a thousand families that in the very beginning of that project, we already have signed up as customers that are going to pay for their land plots. Once we have that and once we have the permits for the municipality, then we bring in an investment and then we buy the land and we start doing the infrastructure. Families are making monthly payments on their plan. But because we are taking a risk on them. Right. What we say is, hey, we want to have kind of like a little insurance as well. And we set up what’s called a waitlist group that we created. And so if there’s a thousand families making payments for their land, that’s kind of the main group. We have this waitlist group that’s about 20 percent of the total. And they’re making payments into an interest bearing savings account. So we’ve created a way for them to save, be on a waitlist, know that they’re probably not going to be part of this batch or project. But there’s such a mismatch in supply and demand that they want to do it. So if anybody from the main group has to drop out, maybe a kid gets sick or they have to move, they get their money back. And we don’t have a hit to cash flow because we can backfill it with somebody from the waitlist. It’s simple. Right. But it’s a way of, you know, taking a simple, great idea and taking it seriously. And it’s just like this mismatch in supply and demand. And how can we use some of New Story’s skills around marketing and sales and setting things up so that we’re de -risking, working with a vulnerable demographic?

Speaker 3 That’s cool.

Richard Cunningham Brett, maybe put some of like the names and stories to faces on both sides of the aisle here that you’re bridging together. So you’ve got some of these families you’re talking about. Maybe help us understand kind of the demographic of that family in Latin America and then also those who are partnering with you on the New Story capital side to be the investors who are kind of willing to blaze this trail. And so, yeah, this is a project that I think is worthwhile. I want to journey with New Story.

Brett Hagler Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, the families we work with are families that it’s funny when you work in the kind of developing world markets, when you ask families their dream, not all the time, but very, very for the most common answer you’re going to get is a home. Right. And people typically think because it is true just by the data, the status quo is that’s going to take them 15, maybe 20 years. That is the status quo that has been that’s just reality, because when you don’t have other interventions, that’s how long it takes. And so people will say a family, a mother and a father with three kids, you know, they’ll say one day I’m going to save up enough and I’m going to, you know, try to buy land. And I’m going to slowly build my house over 10 to 15 years. That’s the status quo. And so we’re able to go into that family who has, you know, kids of all different ages and say, hey, that could actually take two years. That’s what we’ve done. It is a totally different calculus to think about this dream of home ownership and land ownership. So they have a place for generations to build their family, to build their church community, build all these things can happen in two years.

Richard Cunningham And real quick, double click on that, though, is where do they find a new story and how do you guys find them? Because I think that’s a key piece of the puzzle as well. Sorry to cut you off, because I don’t want to take it too far down this rabbit trail.

Brett Hagler Yeah. So we find them by, you know, it looks more like a real estate kind of analysis of where are areas that have need. That’s kind of the unfortunately the easiest one. And then how do we work with a municipality that wants to do permitting, rezoning, et cetera. We can buy land at the price. It’s going to be affordable and can deliver a return. And then we have a really good marketing and kind of brand, you know, opportunity where we go out into the community, showcase studies, show that this is possible. And we have a whole like content kind of it’s called the home journey is the program that we’ve created. And that’s what families are seeing and learning. And then the main thing, Richard, is the best example is when it’s been done close by and so they know people and word of mouth spreads just like anything that, hey, this is like this is actually not too good to be true. This is possible. And I want the opportunity to own land. And so if I have anything saved or if I get remittances, like this is the opportunity because it’s actually affordable and it’s not a gift. You know, they don’t want it for free. They want the dignified process to just afford something. So that’s kind of how we how we do it. And, you know, these are as so many of the listeners know, I mean, these are incredible, hardworking people that have dreams, that have potential, that have creativity. And when you don’t have the basic, basic, basic human needs of safety, of shelter, of a bathroom, of a shower, you know, many families is the first time that they’ve ever had their own bathroom and shower because the infrastructure has been created and it’s in their home. So it just truly unlocks potential when you’re not in an overcrowded, you know, tiny room with a family of five and you’re trying to study or you’re trying to improve your work. Yes, that’s why we’re so passionate about it.

Richard Cunningham That’s cool. And so then the other side of the coin is that investor component. And so those folks that are willing to kind of partner with you guys to go into these places and buy the land and kind of infuse the investment capital. So what do those conversations look like and who are those folks? And obviously no specifics, but just what is the profile of that person look like getting involved?

Brett Hagler Yeah, today and the next by two years, it’s primarily been high net worth families and family offices with our current fund that we have right now. A lot of it’s faith driven investors, not all, but it’s the majority is faith driven investors, which has been incredible to have the support of this network. I think with time, because, you know, what we’re doing is it’s just so expensive and it’s such a big problem. We definitely want to blend high net worth family offices, faith driven network and institutions, pension funds that we’re going to work with local institutions in country that have, you know, big pools of capital that can be deployed. And right now, these next couple of years from an impact perspective, coming in and really demonstrating this, you know, proving that this is a massive, massive opportunity because of how underserved it is. That’s the kind of opportunity for investors right now. You know, one analogy that I would say is one of my favorite examples of entrepreneurship, and we’ve actually got to know some of the leaders at this company at Walmart and, you know, Walmart. Sam Walton has been somebody that I love his book, Made in America. And, you know, in the very beginning, when he was running around trying to create these stores in small town America or in more rural areas, you know, all big players at the time were like, why are you wasting your time going out into these small town, you know, areas with this concept? It’s never going to work there. It’s not a big enough market, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And obviously, you know, it’s been one of the best entrepreneurial stories there is. And I think for future investors, there is a lot of other opportunities out there that can look similar, not to that exact example. But like, you know, for us, just as an example, what we’re betting on is there is so much opportunity in these locations that we’re working that are not like super dense. They’re not super rural. You know, they have probably a population of on the low end, 50 ,000 people on the high end, maybe a couple hundred thousand people. There is so much opportunity to buy land, do infrastructure, help families become land and homeowners. And sure, big developers aren’t doing it right now because they see opportunity costs, they see all these other things. But that is what we want to be best in the world at. And I think there’s so many other things for investors to think about of social problems, of how that same, you know, kind of philosophy can be applied.

Luke Roush Maybe speak a little bit about just for all the faith driven investors that are listening and thinking about, hey, maybe this is something that I should be waiting into. How do you position it? Thinking about debt versus equity, current income versus, you know, OK, it’s going to accrue and then be paid in maturity, you know, liquidity profile, maybe just get into the tactics of that so that folks can then say, all right, hey, maybe this is for me.

Brett Hagler Yeah, totally. Let me back up for a second. So it’s a little funky because it’s a hybrid. So we have a news story. Kind of think about philanthropy. And just for context, that’s its own entity. And what is funding that is philanthropy. And that’s just going for R &D and then hiring extra staff, right? So extra staff that a management fee wouldn’t cover, right? And we’re so lucky to have incredible, committed people that fund that. And then we have news story capital and news story. Capital is the investment arm. It’s what’s doing all the hard costs. It’s buying land. It’s doing infrastructure. It’s all the investments. And so investing into news story capital looks like a for profit investment like you would as an LP. And the current structure would be an equity investment. It’s about a five year term. And we basically have two options, two classes where one, you could get paid back an annual interest rate and then at the end, you know, get the returns. And then we have another class that’s a little higher on the return, but it’s kind of all at the end of five years. And then the other thing that’s cool about that is you get to see. And with the current fund we have right now, we’re aiming to reach about 15000 families with this product. And it’s so clear to see it. It’s project related. And so you get a lot of updates along the way with the impact.

Richard Cunningham Man, that’s powerful. You know, Brett, we just had the I guess just is not the right word is back on February 7th. But it’s been a couple of weeks now. The global faith driven investor kind of annual conference, 100 and something plus watch parties, thousands of attendees around the globe. And we talk a lot about in the kind of FDI world, this language when it comes to solving massive problems like this, a two billion person problem, the concept of building, giving or investing. And I love that your journey kind of encapsulates all three of those. Like you saw the problem when you went to Haiti. New story was born. You’ve invited charitable, well -intentioned, amazing people to join you on that journey. And I love that now you’re also saying, wait, I recognize that this problem could be tackled with a far larger pool of capital that it can also drive almost a kind of capitalistic like mindset to create sustainability in these economies and power people. It doesn’t just turn into a handout type model. And so I love that you kind of encapsulate your ministry now, for -profit investment arm encapsulates kind of all three of those angles. So I want to hand you the floor for kind of just like any final closing comments on like where new story is headed next, some of the things you’re most pumped about. And then we’re going to ask you our kind of go to main question that we ask at the end of every FDI pod. But I want to kind of finish there real quickly.

Brett Hagler Yeah, I mean, we kind of have been starting 2025. We are coming out of almost two or three years of trying to get this model right, having case studies, getting pilots and thank God those have gone really well. And that has given me now the confidence to go forth, to raise more capital, to hire a more senior team, et cetera. So honestly, I’m just truly so excited about this year and this chapter that God has us in. It was not easy getting here and not easy transforming the organization to be more market based solutions. That was a very difficult couple of years, if you could probably imagine internally, externally was a really big evolution. And we’re on the other side of that now. And so I’m very excited. You know, we’ll be raising capital over the next couple of years. And I think, you know, to your point, Richard, about combining kind of philanthropy, investing, business, doing this for a decade now, working in areas where there’s, you know, there’s real poverty, there is real need. I think using philanthropy is really great when you can put it towards R &D and trying to demonstrate something and de -risk something. Right. So the philanthropy right now is it’s used to de -risk the model. Right. So we are able to go in to riskier places, try things, because I’m not putting investment towards that. Right. This isn’t a venture capital fund. This is we’re thinking like investors. And so combining those two things has been, you know, a hybrid for us. But I think where God has had us and it’s going to lead to, hopefully, what I believe is more people impacted, a more sustainable model and something that I think, you know, hopefully, a new story in the faith driven investor world. There’s many other examples like this. So we’re definitely not the only ones. But the belief of bringing market based solutions and investment to some of the world’s biggest problems that the status quo would say, oh, we need to bring charity to that or we need to bring government aid to that. But how do we think more like a business mindset and think like investors? In my opinion, that’s how you’re actually going to reach the most people in need. So that’s what I’m really excited about. We’ll be hiring more people and raising more capital for it.

Luke Roush Before we go to what God’s taught you recently, Brett, and how he’s spoken to you through his word, just a comment. I think it’s a great way of just framing up. What is the role of philanthropic capital versus maybe concessionary capital, where you think you have a business model, but you’re still proving it out, you’re going to take some currency risk, whatever. And then real kind of at market risk adjusted return investing. And there’s a bunch of shades of gray in there. But I think it’s a great way of really answering the question that Richard asked around builders, givers and investors. How do all three groups collectively collaborate to get after big problems like housing and security? And that’s what is just awesome to see play out, as he said, all three forms woven into the context of news stories. So really cool. Absolutely.

Richard Cunningham All right, Brett. Well, root us in some truth to take us home here, man. This is the question we like to ask at the end of every pod. And that’s just what’s been God teaching you in and through his word lately.

Brett Hagler Yeah. I knew you guys were going to ask this because I listened to the pod. So I’m reading Proverbs right now with a couple of buddies. And we do this thing every day that I’m sure some listeners do something similar, but it’s been really life changing in my last year. So I just want to share it. So it’s me and a couple of friends and we read the same scripture. And then we just send back to each other what God wants us to know, how he wants us to be and what he wants us to do. And that’s been one of just the best, best, best new habits of not just doing it with myself and God, but bringing in a few close friends. And so we’ve been doing that and going through Proverbs. And just the two main words that stand out are trust and humility that I’ve been just seeing and reading in Proverbs. And I think both of those are such a powerful combination just to live into God’s will and not our will. And I think they’re also two of the most challenging things to do is to trust and to have the humility because the enemy wants to do the opposite of those things. Right. He wants us to have fear, not to trust, to try to have control over our plans, et cetera. But if we can trust God, which is all in Proverbs and then have the humility that to me feels like the main thing that God is trying to talk to me about right now.

Richard Cunningham I love that no be do and then trust and humility. That’s a good word. Well, Brett Hagler, new story. I mean, thank you for the work you’re doing while you’re blazing a trail. This gets me fired up. I’m pumped about what is in front of you. And Luke and I both kind of see that the work you’re doing and the angle about what you’re going at it, and I think deeply resonate with your work. So, man, prayers up for what’s ahead and folks for Luke Roush. This is Richard Cunningham. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the FDI pod. We will catch you next time.

Speaker 3 We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see listeners come in from more than 100 countries. Faith Driven Investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch in person or online. You can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for a monthly newsletter at faithdriveninvesting .org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Forman, intro mixed and arranged by Summer Dregs. Audio and editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.

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In a world where financial advice is evolving from product-driven to values-driven approaches, Kingdom Advisors CEO Rob West reveals how 2,700 Christian financial professionals are transforming the industry through biblical stewardship. With an estimated $20+ trillion in Christian wealth at stake, Wall Street firms are increasingly embracing faith-aligned investment strategies that prioritize Kingdom impact alongside returns. As Rob West reminds us, “True wisdom is not a perspective, it’s a person and His name is Jesus.”

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ -following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 Hey everyone, all opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. And this podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast. A joy to have you with us for what is our March Marks on the Markets episodes. And while we’re going to get into markets here and there today, we’re doing something a little different as the Super Bowl Luke Rausch for kind of the financial services industry and Christian advisors in the financial services industry just took place February 19th to the 21st in Orlando, Kingdom Advisors Annual Conference. And we have got K .A.’s CEO Rob West with us here today to talk about. KA, the conference, everything that was coming out of that, some of the major themes and threads that we’ll pull on. That’s where we’ll get some of that market commentary. But Luke, before we say hey to Rob West and get into an episode we’re both really pumped about, you were at KA, you sent myself and a number of other folks an email about just how staggering and transformative an event like this was, kind of one of the seminal key moments for the broader movement. How are you, man? And tee up Rob a little more as well. We’ve got you.

Luke Roush Yeah, thanks, Richard. Well, as we’ve said many times before on this podcast, it takes a village as we embark on continuing to shape a whole industry and kingdom advisors every year for me is just it’s a whole gigantic room full of fellow villagers who are trying to put their shoulder to the plow and be a part of really creating new culture. As Andy Crouch writes, it’s easier to build new things than it is to change existing. And that’s what Rob and the team have been at for many, many years so faithfully. So I’m really excited to have Rob on today. And I’m still riding off the high of a couple of days in Orlando.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. Well, so Rob, once again, CEO of Kingdom Advisors, also hosts nationally syndicated radio program, Faith and Finance. Rob, I was just listening to that live show 20 minutes ago. So thanks for hopping over from Faith and Fi over to our FDI podcast recording. Joining us from Marietta, Georgia today. Awesome to have you with us, man. Congratulations on what was an unbelievably successful KA conference back in late February. How are you? Welcome to the FDI podcast.

Rob West Well, thanks. I’ll tell you, it’s great to be here. Richard and Luke, what a privilege. Have such respect for FDI and FDE and the movement. And you’re right, it does take a village and we each play our parts. But yeah, we’re riding high similarly on what God did in Orlando. We see that as the gathering of the Christian financial industry. And there was a lot of people gathered and the Lord was on the move. So thrilled to be able to share a little bit of what we saw there.

Richard Cunningham So Rob, set the stage for us a little bit on just K generally as an organization, obviously everything that built into the big event, I mean, huge, I mean, almost 3 ,000 attendees, the growth of the number of financial advisors that are coming each year, the speakers you pull in like Louis Giglio and Tim Tebow and Randy Alcorn, and then moving over to the kind of investing side, the Bob Dolls, David Bonsons, Brian Wesferis, Michael Kitsis, I mean, just an unreal lineup. Everyone raves about it each year, but kind of set the stage for us on just K generally and then kind of how that dovetails into this year’s big event.

Rob West Yeah, thanks for asking, Richard. So, Kingdom Advisors goes back to 2003. So, we’re 22 years old, founded by Ron Blue and the late Larry Burkett. And it was really birthed out of Ron’s vision personally to help Christians plan and manage their finances so they’d have more money to give away. And it’s this recognition, and this is really, I think, at the tip of the spear of our work at Kingdom Advisors is what drives our team today. And it’s this. that God has allowed financial advisors to be the supply line for kingdom advancing capital through giving and investing. I mean, it’s that simple. You know, if you think about it, when money is released, whether it’s through capital deployment in faith -based investments or whether it’s through generosity, it generally comes by way of a financial advisor that gives permission and really brings counsel and brings a plan and brings the products to the table. And so what that means is that we have the opportunity to really invest in these, let’s call them financial pastors, that are advising on money. But as we know, who understand a biblical worldview and God’s word, it’s so much more than that. It really is issues of the heart. And so it puts these men and women in the center of this conversation that is so unique, really unlike the leveraged opportunity of anyone else as they engage with their clients. And so… We’ve built this community for advisors that want to bring their faith with them to work and help their clients plan, give, and invest God’s money according to a Biblical worldview to really help those clients live as faithful stewards. And we do that by offering a designation, certified kingdom advisor. We can talk more about that a little later. Every major Wall Street firm just about has accepted CK and approved it as the only designation for biblically wise financial advice. But we also do this conference every year that we call Redeeming Money. And it’s really, we like to say, the gathering of the Christian financial industry. And you’re right, we’ve seen some incredible growth in that conference. Two years ago, we were sold out at 2 ,200, and we were up 20 % from the prior year. This year, we’re up another 20 % at 2 ,700 with a sell -out crowd. And you know, Michael Kitsis, thought leader and industry leader in our space, He says, you know, Rob, most financial services conferences are not back to where they were pre -pandemic. And so why would we have seen 40 % growth over the last two years? And I think it really just speaks, and you all would see this as well in your work, it speaks to the momentum that’s going on right now in our space. And that’s for a variety of reasons, I think. Number one, I think the future of financial advice is really suited for financial advisors and offer faith -aligned advice and investments. because we believe that the future of financial advice is really, it’s holistic, it’s values driven, and it’s really catering to the unique needs of clients. You know, there was a day where financial advice was largely product driven, and then it moved to goals -based planning, and I think now the future of financial advice is really around the intersection with values. And, you know, we’re seeing significant demand on the part of believers, whether it’s how they choose their movies. or how they choose their financial advisor. They want their faith reflected in every domain of their life, and that includes their money decisions. And so as a result of that, and as a result of the acceptance of the industry, the larger financial services industry around our niche, we’re just seeing some incredible momentum.

Luke Roush maybe share a bit more just on that momentum because I’ve only been coming to the conference for five or six years now, Rob, and it’s just been extraordinary even in the last five or six years. Me, talked about the last two or three. What do you think has really propelled that? And maybe just say more on what you were just alluding to in terms of an evolution and how Christ followers are thinking about stewarding what God has entrusted to them and the unique role that kind of river guide of an advisor has in shepherding them forward.

Rob West Yeah, it’s a great question. You know, I think first of all, it really does speak to where financial advice is going. Number one, I think it speaks to the demand on the part of Christians that are really want to see their values reflected in in every decision they’re making. But that includes the planning decisions, the giving decisions, and now the investing decisions that they’re making as they’re becoming familiar with the opportunity to really see incredible Kingdom impact alongside. really compelling risk adjusted returns with their investments and having an advisor who can bring that to the table. But what’s fascinating is what’s going on in the financial services industry as well, because what’s unique about this conference is it’s a gathering of 2 ,700 folks, massive group of advisors who are Christians bringing their faith with them to work. But you also see just about every major Wall Street firm represented at that event. And many of those Wall Street firms are bringing They’re senior leaders all the way up to the C -suite. And you might ask, well, you know, why are they there? Why are they so supportive? And here’s what they’re recognizing is they’re recognizing that when you can connect with your client at a values level, everyone wins, right? It creates better planning outcomes. It’s a deeper relationship. You know, it’s better for the client. It’s better for the advisor. It’s better for the firm. And so… What we’re so excited about is that really the financial services industry has embraced our space. They’re creating room in their firms for communities of faith -based advisors to come together. And they’re adding products to the shelves. You know, the world -class, both public and private market products that are being created in the faith -based space. You know, one of the big pieces of the work that we do is engaging with these firms and helping them develop model portfolios and helping them think about. how they build out their faith -based investing product suite. And you put all that together, the consumer demand, the advisor energy, and the industry acceptance, it’s a game changer. And then I would say the last thing is really just, it changes the why for the advisor. Because one of the things I hear most often when I get a call from an advisor is they’ll say something like, Rob, I was ready to get out of the business. I was tired of helping people build bigger barns. And this changes everything because I’ve realized that my greatest opportunity for ministry is on the other side of the conference table, Monday through Friday. And when they can come home to the Kingdom Advisors Conference and not feel like they’re on an island anymore, but they walk into the room and there’s 2 ,700 people worshiping and sitting under Louis’ teaching and then getting into the breakouts and getting in the best practices and then going into the exhibit hall and seeing 70 partners and world -class investment products all built for the Christian advisor. It’s a game changer.

Luke Roush Well, I think it’s a great comment just on the unique role that kingdom advisors plays and actually bringing together firms and individuals who work for firms who are very faith driven, but also many in the room that represent firms that would not be faith driven that ministry opportunity in the broader marketplace is really unique. And, you know, lest one might think, gosh, 2800 advisors, how many more advisors are there in the US that could possibly be reached? Maybe just describe kind of the broader opportunity that you guys are still staring at in terms of really impacting not just, you know, thousands of advisors, but also many times that many clients maybe speak to just kind of the size of the overall advisory space that is potentially reachable.

Rob West It’s pretty compelling, you know, best we can tell there’s about 350 ,000 client facing financial planners and investment professionals. So we’re not talking about the CPAs, we’re not talking about the insurance folks, we’re not talking about the state planning attorney, we need them too. But just the financial planners and the wealth managers, it’s about 350 ,000. And you could lay over top of that, you know, any number of statistics, but let’s just use Farna’s 26 % are practicing Christians. where their faith is very important to their lives. They’re in church regularly and they self -identify as practicing Christians. Well, that’s 90 ,000 advisors. That’s our potential market that are out there today. Let’s say we just get a third of those. I mean, what we really see is our true market potential at Kingdom Advisors is 30 ,000 advisors. You know, we serve about 4 ,000 that are members of Kingdom Advisors today. About 1 ,700 of those have earned our designation. And so. They’ve gone through a 50 hour training program, proctored exam, pastor and client reference, statement of faith, code of ethics, regulatory review, 10 hours of CE. I mean, we don’t go easy on them, but those 1 ,700 are the ones that we then hold out to the public. You know those have a team. 80 ,000 Christians will come to our website this year and do a search for the Certified Kingdom Advisor, but there’s a massive audience of advisors. And then you lay that on top of, and you guys, I’m sure have your own stats on this. I mean, best we can tell, there’s probably somewhere north of $20 trillion in the hands of Christians today. I mean, just the advisors in that room at our conference probably represented $300 billion of investable assets. So. There’s a compelling opportunity there. And, you know, one of the things I’ll add just in terms of the potential is really what’s happening with students. And you would have seen this, Luke, at the conference, but we had 250 undergraduate students at the conference this year from 25 universities, eight of those offering a CFP and a CKA, our designation, Certified Kingdom Advisor program, in their business school. So this is training the next generation of financial advisors. They’re gonna graduate ready to sit for CFP, ready to sit for CKA, and our advisors are hiring them as fast as they graduate. We need more schools and more students because, here’s an interesting stat, 38 % of today’s financial advisors will be out of the business in 10 years. You know, the average age is 55. So they’re putting this biblical advice model in place, and the last thing they wanna do is, you know, transition the practice to the next generation that’s gonna unwind all of that. So they want these next gen students that are ready to kind of enter the business with impact on their minds on day one.

Richard Cunningham Incredible, Rob. I love how you guys have thought about almost every angle from next gen to those retiring out. Just, it’s fun to hear how much space there still is to run in terms of growth. I mean, the one thing I keep thinking about is, as epic as that Orlando World Center Marriott is, are we going to grow out of that space? I mean, it just feels like it’s been the staple KA host, but I can’t imagine it can hold much more.

Rob West Yeah, it’s interesting. We have that conversation with the Marriott all the time. We’re contracted there through 2029 and they can go up to with our style of event, which is heavy on breakouts and workshops because, you know, from the main stage we’re doing teaching to encourage the attendees spiritually. So that’s where Louie Giglio and Tim Tebow and Andy Crouch and others. But then in the breakouts, it’s the how -to’s of biblical financial advice. And so we need a lot of We need a lot of space. So we can go up to 4 ,000 there, and then it’ll be onto a convention center or something like that. But we’ve got a few years left.

Richard Cunningham That’s awesome. Hallelujah. What a good problem to have.

Luke Roush Maybe speak a little bit about the certified kingdom advisor designation. Kind of what does it mean? Why is it advantageous for an advisor to sort of think about that? And maybe just speak to the origin of it. Cause I think that’s a really compelling part of what kingdom advisors is doing to try to educate and also, you know, create a designation that implies expertise to a client.

Rob West I appreciate that. We realized a number of years ago that if we were going to really serve the public well, the Christian public who wanted an advisor who understood their worldview as Christ followers and could align their advice and now their investments with those values, that they really needed an advisor who’d been trained and that we could feel good about holding out to the public. And so we built the Certified Kingdom Advisor designation, but we built it. in line with all the industry norms. Because what’s going on right now in financial services is most major wirehouses and Wall Street firms are reducing the number of designations. They’re not adding them. There was a day where you could go to Vegas for the weekend, sit through a few courses and come home with a few letters after your name. And that’s pretty much gone by the wayside. I mean, they’re really skinning them down to only those that have true academic rigor and have you know, a public disciplinary process and have a code of ethics and annual CE requirements and the whole host. And so we built a designation that met every one of those industry standards. And then we added on top of those with a pastor reference and client reference and code of ethics and statement of faith. So we have a true designation that is widely accepted across the industry, which is really exciting. And what it does for us is, you know, there’s been a lot of affinity fraud out there. Christians taken advantage of in the name of religion. And this really addresses that head on by making sure that we’ve got not only a really robust front end process before somebody can get the designation, but an ongoing process of annual renewal and CE. And so we’re seeing real excitement about it. As I said, we’ve got 1700 advisors. What’s pretty cool is just the growth track of CKA is pretty phenomenal. So just by comparison, certified financial planner CFP grew by between three and 4 % per year the last two years, three to 4 % each year. CK is up 11 and a half percent two years ago. We’re on pace to be up 14 % this year. So the growth rate is pretty compelling. Now there’s 100 ,000 CFPs and we’ve got 1 ,700. So we got a long way to go, but the trajectory and the glide path is right. And then that demand is growing pretty significantly. So those searches for a CKA on our website are gonna be up about 20 % plus this year from 68 ,000 to 80 ,000. So it’s pretty fun to watch it all unfold.

Richard Cunningham That’s awesome. Yeah, there’s a competitive advantage to it as you’re unpacking there, as people are looking for CKs and that values alignment when they sit down across from their advisor. That’s amazing. Well, Rob, let’s go to the meat and potatoes of this year’s event. What are those talks, those themes that people just keep bringing up here a couple weeks later? Maybe some market insights, but also I want you to start with two. We’ve said his name a few times, but folks like Louis Giglio, you guys have worship at a financial services industry event. Talk about the significance of kind of pastoral care and teaching as you also have, you know, a ton of insight on kind of just best practices, what’s taking place and kind of the overall financial services ecosystem as well.

Rob West Yeah, thanks Richard. So worship is a big part of our event. We put a lot of time and energy to make sure that everything we do is done with excellence. So everything from just the main stage and the audio visual and the lighting and the production value and we have a creative director who you know really thinks through that end -to -end. It’s now a year -round planning process. Everything from the hosting experience to the band and you name it. But worship is a key part that because what we hear consistently. and most often from first timers is they’ll say, I walked in the room and I saw 2 ,700 people worshiping the Lord at an advisor conference and I realized I found my people. You know, like I had no idea this existed. I mean, we’ve heard from advisors saying, hey, I’m gonna go to this thing, honey, and you go out to the pool and I’m sure I’ll be out there in 15 minutes. And I called my wife or I called my husband half hour later in tears and said, you gotta get in here. I’ve never experienced anything like this. So that’s been a cool part of it. And then, you know, as we said from the main stage, it’s really all about spiritual encouragement. I mean, Ron Blue, our founder, has said from day one, you can’t take a client where you haven’t been. And so it really starts with us, right, and our own walk with Jesus and my relationship with the Lord and what I’m learning in God’s word, I have nothing to bring to my clients apart from that. And so we just want to pour into you. And so… In terms of those talks that resonate, I mean, if you jump on LinkedIn, you’re gonna see Tim Tebow all over it because he brought this just really passionate message about, wait a minute, as kingdom advisors, you’re advising on behalf of the king. And what is the significance of that? And what does that mean? And he just really challenged them. And then, Louie’s been amazing. Louie’s been a great friend of ours for several years. I think this is his fourth or fifth visit to the Redeeming Money Conference. And we just really appreciate how he just builds people up. … Just the Bible -based teaching that he brings is always just a real high point of the conference. Andy Crouch, there’s nobody better. Peter Grier on Mission Drift. Gabe and Rebecca Lyons were amazing just talking about this idea of really a wisdom track that rides alongside the culture that’s just so appealing that draws people in and the opportunity our advisors have to bring that to bear. So that’s really what happens from the main stage. When we get into some of those. you know, practical how -tos we like, as you said, to bring the best of the best in our industry, but who operate from a biblical worldview. So that’s, you know, Bob Dahl and David Bodson and Brian Westbury and Jerry Boyer and so many others. And it’s just fun to watch them kind of bring the market and the economic news of the day through the lens of a biblical worldview, because they know it begins with God’s design for wealth creation. You know, this virtuous. cycle that we were created and mankind is a blessing and we’re to keep and cultivate and be productive and work with our hands and then you know we take God’s latent potential and you know we put it to work and we are co -creators and and then we give back to the God that created us. I mean that is a backdrop as a game changer for understanding what’s going on in our economy today and that’s the kind of worldview that these guys are bringing.

Luke Roush Yeah. So Rob, I’d love for you to just go a little bit deeper in terms of things that seem to be popping out, things that seem to be evolving. I’ve noticed some evolution even in the last three or four years around how people think about kind of values driven investing. I think where maybe the industry was a some number of years ago was largely about how do we avoid certain things, negative screening. It feels like there’s been an evolution in the last few years about also leaning into this, what are we for? You know, it’s one of the things that I always appreciate about and his talk is. investing that makes the world rejoice, which is what even Tide speaks a lot about, and it’s something that is obviously close to our heart at Sovereign’s. How have you seen those themes evolve and change in the last few years?

Rob West That’s been so significant, Luke. I think it was our friends at Eventide that really kind of coined these three categories of avoid, embrace, and engage. And I think you’re exactly right. The conversation around faith -based or faith -driven investments was largely around the avoid side. What is it we’re kicking out or avoiding? And that’s great. We want to continue that. But I think kind of the new story of what at least the tone and tenor that we’re experiencing at this year’s conference is moving very heavily. into the embrace side and looking at the impact investments and the opportunity through both the public but now also the private markets to really lean into and think about how we deploy capital and how it’s solving problems and how it’s really resonating with investors and how real impact is occurring. And that’s been a shift in the narrative. I think the community of faith -based investors and asset managers and thought leaders and theologians. is healthier than it’s ever been. I think the discourse is happening at a higher level. I think the products are world class now and there’s more products on the shelves. And then I think the engagement side is a new story as well. And we saw that really present at the conference this year also. I mean, the work Jerry Boyer and others are doing in this space and many of the asset managers have their own engagement strategies, but not only are Christians understanding that their proxy votes and their shareholder resolutions matter and they need to be engaged in those conversations to express Christian values. But advisors are bringing that opportunity to the table in a way they haven’t previously. And so there’s just a genuine excitement and enthusiasm on the part of our community at Kingdom Advisors around all of these things because it just seems like the trajectory of faith -based investing has changed dramatically. both in the conversation, but also in the execution.

Luke Roush Yeah, well that resonates with me and I think that’s very much in line with what I’ve observed I also think and you mentioned this earlier, but it’s a big encouragement to me the number of young people who are Seriously interested in this industry and really, you know If for no other reason just the need and demand There are a great many kingdom advisors who are somewhere in the last 10 or 15 years of their career and so thinking about succession, how do we continue to offer the kind of advice that Kingdom advisors have been offered to their clients for so many years faithfully I’m excited to see and this may be part of what’s actually Driving just an evolution and thinking is more and more young people waiting in Who aren’t having a halftime event at 45 or 50 thinking about how do they reframe their career? To be more in line with their faith. They’re having their halftime event at 23 24 Even younger maybe in college. It’s interesting to see that kind of play out and i’m excited to see how kingdom advisors continues to wade into that younger generation.

Richard Cunningham Well, Luke, I’d also piggyback into that. It’s also on the advice side is that if, for the most part, people working with advisors right now are maybe the baby boomer generation, those in the millennial kind of Gen Z cohort coming into wealth or accumulating wealth, working with an advisor, are also thinking about values alignment maybe differently than the generation before us was or is, or you know, it’s unique and everything kind of has its own kind of. independent scenario, but just kind of on a macro level that feels like that’s the case. Robert, you seeing that too, kind of to dovetail off what Luke’s saying?

Rob West No doubt. We actually did a panel of next -gen inheritors speaking to the advisors to help them understand what they need to know about those inheritors because they view money differently. They weren’t the ones that saw the creation of the money. They’re receiving it, and obviously that changes dramatically how they view it, how they handle it, how they give it, how they invest it. And I think to your point, Luke, this next generation, I mean, all the data saying impact even more. then the paycheck is heavily on their minds. They wanna know, am I making a difference? Am I being authentic to who I am and how God has made me? And I wanna align my work, I wanna align my investments, I wanna align how I handle money, with that across the board. And that just really bodes well for the work that we’re doing because these programs that are spinning up, I mean, the latest of which was Grand Canyon University, which is just massive and – you know, between Liberty and Grand Canyon. I mean, the two biggest Christian universities in the country now. And for both of them to have a program that trains the next generation of financial advisors. And to your point, Luke, most of the advisors we serve in Kingdom Advisors today, you know, they found this idea of bringing their faith with them to work 20 years into the business. I mean, imagine starting on day one, knowing that I have a different why for why I go to work. And, you know, I’m gonna be able to help. my clients live as stewards and help them make an impact and help them use these investments. You know, that is a game changer and we couldn’t be more excited about where this is all headed.

Luke Roush Yeah, super exciting. The energy is contagious. And you know, the buzz, I think on the street, to your point, growth is usually a combination of faithful execution and also timing. It really does feel like the timing in combination with great execution by you and the team. And I think, you know, standing on truth, what we always say is truth stands out in the marketplace of ideas. And you guys are standing on truth that has been carefully curated and crafted and informed by God’s Word and just wise biblical counsel. So I’m really I think we’re all really grateful for the leadership mantle that rests with Kingdom Advisors. particularly within the RIA community. It’s a big, big deal, and we’re grateful for your service. Richard, we always end with the same question, so I’m gonna let you fire it over.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I’m actually going to not play by the rules here, Luke, and go to that question just yet. And kind of maybe a lightning round from both of you. Real quickly, just Marks on the Markets episode is kind of our monthly nod to the markets. Maybe quick commentary from both of you. Think talking about that kind of biblical worldview, everything that’s just going on right now on headlines, whether it be tariffs or Zelensky situations, and then the US and Ukraine trying to have peaceful conversations, whatever that looks like, and go in whatever direction you want. but maybe. Kind of a nod to our marks on the markets. 30 to 60 seconds from each of you on just kind of, maybe it’s something you heard at KA from one of the economists. What are you thinking about right now? How can you take that biblical worldview? And then Rob, we will close with our go -to question, but I wanna hear from both of you on that.

Rob West Yeah, you know, I mean, boy, the volatility is up. I mean, the uncertainty is through the roof. And yet we can rest on God’s design for economics and wealth creation and realize that when we understand his handiwork at the core of this, we can trust him for the outcome. You know, I love a lot of where we’re headed. And this was a consistent theme from Brian Westbury and David Bonson and Jerry Boyer and Bob Dahl. And that is that You know, a lot of the things we’re talking about today in terms of getting out of the way of business and letting business providing goods and services, things that are good and things that are serving people do what they’re going to do without a lot of heavy -handed government intervention is the way it should be. And let capital be deployed in a way that’s gonna solve problems and meet needs. And when we understand again, that we’re more mind than mouth, right? We were created as a blessing. and we need to let people thrive. And, you know, God creates out of nothing. We create out of God’s creation, but that human flourishing happens when we supply capital to business to do what business was intended to do. And I think that’s a lot of what’s happening right now in Washington, and that’s a good thing. And we need to celebrate that, and we need to understand why that’s working the way that it is, and that ultimately goes back to a biblical worldview. Yeah, I agree.

Luke Roush completely Robin. One of the things that we really believe is that there are certain things in the world that are timely and there’s other things in the world that are timeless. And so we know God’s Word to be true. We know it to be timeless and He is the same yesterday and today and tomorrow. There’s other things that are timely and certainly the flavor of the hour, as you said, is volatility and uncertainty and I think just some amount of drama. And so I think that the situation in Washington is chaotic. I think many people would say that it’s about time that we shake things up. But I think it’s an important time for believers to remember that, you know, the three main legs of the stool, prayer, God’s Word, and godly counsel from others who are running in the same direction is what anchors us into truth. I think that there’s a lot of good things that will come out of this to include more fiscal responsibility on the part of Hopefully our nation and certainly at a state level and at a departmental level I think there’s going to be a lot of just Change and you know as christ followers We’ve got a wonderful opportunity to reflect what we know to be true in terms of where do we place our hope? And and what gets us rattled or not rattled and so I think reanchoring Into our true identity as believers and followers of the teachings of jesus is important even as markets Endure, I think some protracted turbulence and part of it is of our own creation You know when money’s free for 10 or 15 years It’s hard to imagine a time when money goes back to being what it’s costed I heard it actually quoted yesterday in biblical times the interest rate on an unsecured loan was in the 8 % to 12 % range. And that’s kind of like where we are today. And for a long time, it was about 4%, which was an aberration. And so what we’re living through right now in terms of return to more normalized cost of capital is I think more emblematic of where we’ve been in the course of human history. And as we readjust to that normality, there’s some turbulence, but we know where our hope should be placed and needs to be placed daily. And I think that the kingdom advisors out there in the world are reminding clients of that and reminding themselves of that. So I’m grateful for that aspect of how you help people to anchor into what is true and right.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. 8 to 12 percent in biblical times. That’s fascinating.

Luke Roush I would have expected it to be much higher.

Richard Cunningham Right? Me too.

Luke Roush I don’t know how they calculated that or where they got that. I’ve not seen a source on that, but it was stated with some amount of confidence yesterday. Therefore, I’m going to go ahead and restate it.

Richard Cunningham Nothing like a little conviction. Well, hey, Rob, it’s Ash Wednesday. As we record this, this episode will release on Monday, March 10th. We’re just so thankful for all the things Kay is doing and just an honor to celebrate the big event. But take us home with the question we love to ask at the close of every FDI pod, and that is what’s God been teaching you in and through his word lately?

Rob West Yeah, well, I’d be delighted to share that. Let me just say before I do how grateful I am for Richard, you and Luke and the team at Faith Driven Investor. Your work is so important. I love what’s happening with solving the world’s greatest problems and the momentum that you all have right now. And you are such vital partners to our work. So thanks for all you’re doing. I can’t wait to continue to collaborate in the days ahead. But yeah, so I’ve been in the book of Ecclesiastes lately. We’re actually. Producing so we haven’t talked much about faith five, but that’s our consumer brand where we host the radio show And we’re really kind of moving into a new area of creating Resources that are intended to be for advisors to use with their clients But also for our radio listeners and so forth. So we’re producing studies and devotionals. So our new study comes out In April called wisdom over wealth 12 lessons on money from the book of Ecclesiastes. So I’ve been in the book of Ecclesiastes, a lead writer on it’s John Cortina’s good friend of ours, but here’s what Ecclesiastes 7 .12 says, and you all would know this passage well. It says, wisdom is a shelter, as money is a shelter, but the advantage of knowledge is this, wisdom preserves those who have it. And so we know that wisdom is far more important than wealth, and we need to transfer wisdom before wealth. And we talk a lot about wisdom at Kingdom Advisors because really at the core of everything we do is biblical financial wisdom. But it does beg the question, I think, and this is what I’ve been thinking about, what is wisdom? It’s really not just about intellectual mastery or a list of best practices. True wisdom is not a perspective, it’s a person and his name is Jesus. And if we want to be wise, we have to do a lot more than study theology or gain life experience. We need to know Christ personally. and so. That would be my challenge to us today, is do we know wisdom himself? What a great word.

Luke Roush What a great word to finish on.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. Rob West, CEO of Kingdom Advisors. Friends, he’s got a great radio voice and a lot of wisdom. You can find him at faithfi .com. He’s on every single day, giving talks similar to this and just unpacking finances from a biblical worldview. Grateful for your time. For Luke Roush, folks, I’m Richard Cunningham. Thank you so much for joining us and we will catch you next time.

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