Episode 18 – Worry Is Not Our Friend with Todd Wagner
subscribe to the podcast
We’re combining the Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor audiences today to continue to address the current events we face. Todd Wagner joined us to speak into how we as believers can respond to the fear and worry surrounding COVID-19.
Todd is the lead pastor at Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas. If that name sounds familiar to you it’s probably because you’ve heard Henry mention it in the intro to this podcast as the location for where we will be hosting our Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Investor Conferences this fall. In addition to being our host and a speaker at the event, Todd is also a great voice in the faith-driven conversation.
His words of wisdom—or as his Twitter handle calls them, words from wags—are encouraging, challenging, and uplifting to all who hear them. And with our current events, we could all use encouragement. Like Todd shared, “worry is not our friend and panic is not our way…”
Useful Links:
Should Christians Be Anxious About Coronavirus?
Episode Transcript
Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.
Henry: [00:03:01] Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We have yet another special edition this week as we interview a really key pastor in the life of Faith Driven Entrepreneur. When we think about a short list of folks that have really spoken into the strategy and just the mission in the coin and the vision of Faith Driven Entrepreneur. Todd Wagner is right up there. Right with the folks we’ve had on before. When I think about Chip Ingram and Tim Keller and JD Greer and as many of you know, he is the senior pastor, Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas. He’s a great man of God. Very thoughtful about what it looks like to be a Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Investor. So much so that he and his elder board have graciously offered to host the first ever Faith Driven Entrepreneur in faith to an investor conference that’s happening a watermark this September. So we’re so glad you get a chance to partner with you, Todd, and the team there in advancing the conversation further. And we’re grateful to have your voice of encouragement in these crazy times. So welcome to the program. [00:03:59][58.4]
Todd: [00:04:00] It is a pleasure to be with you. Thank you, Henry, so much. And it’s it’s exciting that we’re gonna get to be together like a bunch of the guys that usually on this podcast. And we are grateful for the opportunity host. We’re glad that we can. And let’s get this corona virus outta here so we can make sure. Get done. [00:04:13][13.7]
Henry: [00:04:14] Amen. I want to start this podcast, though, before we talk about what’s going on this particular season. If you haven’t figured out by now, we’re recording these special editions in the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast at a time when Corona virus is really hitting the country hard. In March of 2020. And yeah, I think you to find that the context of this podcast is timeless. Right. Talking about how do we rely on God and how do we make most of the opportunities of Faith Driven Entrepreneur to know and serve him? One of things we always do on a podcast, of course, is to understand a little bit more about our guest. And so I want to start this podcast, Todd, by talking a little bit about your life pre watermark. And if I’m correct, you’ve not always been a pastor. You started your life as a lawyer. Is that true? [00:04:57][43.2]
Todd: [00:04:59] Well, not exactly, but I never thought I’d be a pastor. In fact, I used to tell folks that if you told me I was going to be one, I’d be taking a swing at you just because I had no idea really honestly what it meant to know Christ and the churches that I was around. Even from a distance as a nonbeliever, there were not churches that I saw doing anything really relevant. I saw men running a lot of very average weekly meetings with a bunch of bored adults. And I certainly whatever I would do with my life was not to lead average weekly meetings with a bunch of bored adults. So it was not too late by the kindness of God came to see the goodness of who he was. And then I got around his word. And then, by God’s grace, a few places where I saw men leading well, that he really captured my heart. Prior to that, I was headed to law school. And so that’s what I really thought I was gonna do. So, you know, just all the things to get my ducks in a row for that to happen. And then when God captured my heart, you know, really late in my teen years, the college years before, I was going to actually step into law school environment. I just found myself actively doing ministry. God just continued to grow my heart’s passions for some other thing. So I don’t think my passion ever decreased for what I would say is the faithful work of the Christian in the workspace, the largest made it clear to me that probably the best use of his life for me was going to be to convene, to equip and encourage the saints in the role that I’m in now. [00:06:27][88.1]
Henry: [00:06:28] But it would be possible for an attorney to be redeemed and become a pastor. [00:06:31][3.2]
Todd: [00:06:32] Well, let me just say this. My friend Kelly Shackelford, which if you are around that church and law space, Kelly argued cases before Supreme Court has a lot to defend religious freedom. Kelly wanted to be a pastor. I was gonna be a lawyer. He end up graduating number one from his class in law schools. And he was actually working as a volunteer at a ministry I was leading at the time. He said to me, I really think I want to be a pastor, so. Kelly, let me just tell you something, buddy. If God’s calling you to be in vocational ministry, I mean, I even don’t even like that term because all of us on this podcast are in vocational ministry. I might be only one that the world calls a pastor. We know, but we’re part of the kingdom of priests. And I have to tell you, Kelly, Kelly, we need godly law clerks. We need godly, you know, he clerked for federal judges. We need godly lawyers. And I had no idea when Kelly was 20 that he was gonna go on to be one of the leading advocates for religious freedom that was out there. [00:07:27][55.4]
[00:07:28] He probably had no idea that I was going to one day have the privilege of starting a church that would turn into what watermark is by God’s kindness has turned into. So, yes, God can redeem lawyers and God can redeem guys who think that life is going to be richer if they go into places where they can get earthly riches. And so my story is definitely a little bit of that. [00:07:46][18.0]
Henry: [00:07:46] The high end. And to be clear, as much as I love a good lawyer joke, it is amazing what folks have gone through three years of law school and see that as a vocation to be alone make really an incredible impact on policy and helping redeem all sorts of different aspects of society. Think about immigration law. I think about justice and some right with you on that. OK, so back to the things that I know a little bit more about. Let’s go into this. What’s going on right now, which is this COVID 19 coronavirus epidemic has continue to spread and it seems like the end of pandemic may even be in sight right now. You’ve written a few articles about it, one for the Gospel Coalition titled Should Christians Be Anxious About Coronavirus? And I’d love to hear about why you decided to write it. [00:08:28][41.7]
Todd: [00:08:28] Well, you know, it’s so funny. I wrote it right there at really the beginning of March. And as we can all look back now, just three weeks ago, it wasn’t that big a deal that very few people were that worked up about it. But I’d begun to hear some whispers. And so, you know, as a pastor. Folks usually let you know what they’re thinking about. And I had heard enough of this that I just decided to sit down and begin to shepherd myself and shepherd others by how we’re to think biblically about that. And so that’s really what the article was about to sit down to just find out a few thoughts that I’ve been a little surprised how much traction this court and how long it’s been a trending article in the Gospel Coalition. But when we look out there in the world today, well, it’s the Coronavirus, just a general sense of economic instability or just the fear of what might tomorrow’s going to look like. We all know that anxiety is well on the rise. In fact, what’s really interesting is I think two thousand eighteen, it was the first time. That for three consecutive years, the death rate or should be the life expectancy in America had gone down. And the reason it went down were all because of issues that are around this topic of worry that we’re going to talk about me because of suicide. Certainly that that was at an all time high and so it reduced the life expectancy. What’s interesting, too, before I finished the other two is the last time that America had a dip in life expectancy was in 1919 during the Spanish flu. Mm hmm. And so we went almost 100 years ago with life expectancy accelerating until the 2015 to 2018 timeframe. And it is because of suicide. It was because of cirrhosis, which we know is due to alcohol consumption and because of a spike in opioid deaths, which people looking to numb their pain and escape from their reality. So this issue is not related to the Corona virus. It’s been around for the last three years in a way that, you know, anybody who cares about people just needs to learn to talk about it now. [00:10:30][121.6]
Rusty: [00:10:31] Hey, Todd, you know, entrepreneurs just by our nature probably live with a certain case of paranoia. Right. I mean, we’re just like paranoid just to start with. Are they really going to turn out the way we thought? Are we going to hit the plan that we have in front of us? Will we get that next round of funding? And will we be able to hang on to that team member or get that team member or land that next deal? And there’s a sense of paranoia that comes with all of that that can turn into worry. And you mentioned worry there a moment ago. Can you dig into that for us and give us from a theological perspective, how should entrepreneurs think about worry? [00:11:11][39.1]
Todd: [00:11:12] All right. A couple of things. You know, it’s so funny when you said that Rusty and you just talk about how entrepreneurs are prone to that sense of paranoia. You know, I’m a bit of an entrepreneur myself, and I’m prone towards real optimism. You know, a general like with a can do spirit. That’s kind of what I think is innate in a lot of us that are creators and designers and developers. But part of being a responsible designer and developer is you’ve got to think through how am I going to finish this and take into account the cost. And so certainly there’s a sense of burden. So here’s a couple of things that I should say that we should think about, whether we consider ourselves an entrepreneur or not. If we consider ourself a person of faith, we just want to be individuals that are marked more by strength than we are fear. Proverbs, 24 10 says he was slack in the day of distress. His strength is limited and may never be said that God’s people don’t have what it takes at any given moment, because we know that our God is never shaken. And the scriptures would encourage us to once we experienced peace with God. Right. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. The scripture then says, if we will continue to keep our mind steadfast on him, will keep us in perfect peace. Or to use Paul’s words in Philippians, we are to be anxious for nothing because in prayer supplication with Thanksgiving, we let a request be made known to him. We keep our eyes focused where they should be, and it says they will not have just peace with God, with the peace of God. [00:12:37][85.8]
[00:12:38] And so let me encourage you with one little story that I actually heard. I’ve got a friend that last night was listening to our Dallas County judge who issued a shelter in place, command that goes into effect today. And he was just sitting there and he was watching this graph that this guy was showing that literally to make his case, said that there was gonna be half a million deaths, half a million deaths in our area if we didn’t do what he was suggesting we do. And he felt the blood pressure inside of him began to rise a little bit. And then he looked out his window and took out his iPhone. And he began to just film the birds that were out there. And the reason he did that is because you’re in that very moment, you know, his eyes and mine is the eyes of his mind. Went back to that little text of scripture in Matthew chapter six, where Jesus is just encouraging folks to not worry. He even talked about the birds of the air and how God takes care of them. And so don’t you know that you’re more valuable than the birds that are out there? He said the birds were not concerned about what the county commissioner was talking about. Right. You know, they were out there singing and they were flying about. [00:13:47][69.1]
[00:13:49] Somebody might say that’s all fine and well and good, but they don’t have 500 employees. They don’t have a bunch of investors that they use all their personal relational capital to get them to invest with them. And so this is my moment. So I’m not a bird. I’m a man and I’m an entrepreneur. So what should I do? Well, if you’re a man of faith. All right. What you should do is exactly what God tells you to do. Right. First, I want to say this to you. No temptation is coming to you as a man who started a business you start to fund. Was employees looking to them. No temptation is coming to you. But such as is common to man. That guy that works for you is wondering if the business is going to work. So you’re not to carry that guy’s burdens. And I’m supposed to carry you’re only supposed to let the Lord carry your burdens. And I just wanna remind you and one of things I said in that article was worry doesn’t really accomplish anything except creating weakness of heart and head. I love the story of Corrie Ten Boom, who, as we know, was one of the righteous among the nations, which is what the Jews called gentiles that did what God wanted them to do in a time of great persecution of the Jews. When you were a gentile and cared for the Jews, you got treated like a Jew, which is exactly what happened to Kaori and her sister. They ended up being locked up. And, you know, she just talks about how she realized and learned right then that worry didn’t empty tomorrow of its sorrow. It just emptied today of its strength. And so as a leader, one of the things I would just tell you is you lead your company is it’s going to hurt your ability to do what you have to do with your employees and your investors are expecting you to do if you use your energy to worry about tomorrow’s troubles. That’s why the scripture says, you know, don’t be anxious for tomorrow. OK, folks. And today he says enough trouble of its own. So your job is to do what you should do today and not to worry about what might happen tomorrow. It takes the same amount of energy to praise. It does the worry. So it would be a man of prayer and prayers. And just like God, please show up and do this for me. Prayer is meditating on what God’s word has said and then to be attentive to that word so that you might do it. And so rather than fret, what you want to do is just say, Lord, you tell me if in trials and we’re certainly in trials and as a leader, you’re going to be in trials, a what it says, if any man lacks wisdom, he should ask of God who gives to all men, and he does it under grudgingly OK, and so God is ready and willing to help you. But she can’t help you when you’re spending your time worrying about what might happen as opposed to seeking what you should do. And so, you know, if God tells us to do anything you said once you worry about how you need to love people. Well, because that’s your job. As my ambassador, as my appointed servant leader that you have as a member of that company. So what I would say is your prayers should be Lord. Scripture tells me to trust in the Lord and do good to dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness. So what this faithfulness look like for me today. And that’s where you want invest your time, not with worry. [00:16:51][183.0]
Rusty: [00:16:53] That’s good. That’s such a good word, Todd. And something that I think that’s not only relevant today, but for Faith driven entrepreneurs. Right. Is everywhere and should be at all times. And, you know, I think in moments like this, a lot of us try to look back at history and try to learn and bring forward. And there’s been such great words. And I know my e-mail box has been filled with C.S. Lewis and the atomic age. And his you know, his statements about that. And more recently, you know, I’m starting to see things and I know you’ve written about this and talked about it. You know what Martin Luther actually went through during the plague. And it’d be awesome to hear you talk a little bit about that, because that seems really relevant even today from a long, long time ago. So, yeah. Talk to us a little bit about, you know, what Martin Luther was going through and what we can learn from that. [00:17:40][47.7]
Todd: [00:17:41] All right. Well, this is great because you know Martin Luther lives in the 16th century, so the fifteen hundreds. And we know that the bubonic plague was something that was wreaking havoc in Europe for centuries, in fact, in the 14th century. So it’s been 13 hundreds. I think they estimate 60 percent of the population of Europe died. OK, that’s not 25 percent unemployment that we’re talking about right now on our economic forecasts. That’s 60 percent of the population of Europe died. The bubonic plague is a whole lot worse than the Corona virus. The plague would create not just high fevers, but large what they called weeping boils that would be on you. And even worse, because of some of the lack of medical development, the time there were doctors that would be propagating information that would say that you’re going to instantly die if the spirit of sickness that’s in somebody who has the bubonic plague even looks at a healthy person standing there. And so the conventional wisdom was, stay clear to sick, get out. Right. In other words, care for yourself and do what you can to survive in that particular moment. And so in the midst of that environment, we got him. John Huss wrote to Luther. He was another reformer in Germany. And in the 16th century, Luther actually had been commanded, if you will, by his government leaders to get out because he was a bit of a price leader. And they said, we want you to get out. His wife was pregnant at the time. So I want you to imagine this. And this is where Luther responded with this amazing little statement about what we should do. And I think there’s relevance for here for guys that are leading businesses, because when you are a leader of an organization. All right. You are responsible not just for the well-being of your family, but you are responsible for the well-being of others. And so when you think about what God wants you to do in that moment, you can’t just think of yourself. You can’t think about your reputation. Only you can’t think about your financial security. Only you can think about how you’re going to come out of this and maybe get people to invest in your next deal, because believers. And again, this is a faith driven investor podcast. Right. We’re believers. So we do nothing. We do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit. But with humility of mind, we consider others as more important than herself. We don’t really look out for our own personal interests. We also look out for the interests of others. I read a Harvard Business Review article that we might even get to hear a little bit later in our conversation. That was just helping business owners rethink how they might act in this. But let me just finish what Luther said. He just said this. This is an answer to the question that just asked him. And the answer the question is whether one might flee from a deadly plague. This really great application, not just for pastors, for what believers do in troublesome economic times or in a time of turmoil. He said this. He said, very well, then, by God’s decree. The enemy is sent a pestilence. So let me tell my faith driven investors this sometimes that pestilence is a contract that didn’t actualize. [00:20:44][183.4]
[00:20:45] Sometimes it’s an employee that was unfaithful. Sometimes it was a guy that led you on that he was going to execute on our business plan that you had that he’s not. That can be a pestilence. All right. And so what Luther said is, I shall ask first of all, then God for mercifully to protect us. Right. So if it’s a situation where you caused the plague or the pestilence, then the first thing you need to do is own it. But a situation where you feel like you’re a victim of it, like let’s say we all are with the Corona virus or in this case, Luther was with the plague. You should just say, God be merciful to me. This is not a surprise to you. Right. And so my job is to be faithful in it. You would not have brought this to me if you did not want me to faithfully represent you in it. That doesn’t mean I’m going to get to always have it spin around and turn around. Just be this great Silicon Valley success story or this great Wall Street success story. It means I’m going to be faithful and faithfulness is success. So Luther says I shall administer medicine and take it. In other words, do the things you need to do to care for yourself. Make sure you’re practicing sound fiscal policies. Make sure you’re walking with integrity. The medicine of a businessman doesn’t change in times of crisis. And if you’re going to be in a world filled with some pestilence, the first thing to make sure you’re doing is locking down your own actions and being excellent in them. He said I still avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order to not become contaminated and thus perchance infect and pollute others. If people in a city were to show themselves bolded faith, he says, when a neighbor’s needs so demands and cautious when no emergency exists, and if everyone would help ward off contagion as best he can, then he says in this instance the death toll would indeed be moderate. But and this is the key. If we are too panicky and desert our neighbors in their plight, then the devil will have a heyday and many will die. And so what Luther was saying is we have a responsibility not just to care for ourselves, but to not deserve our neighbors and their plight. And when I would just tell you, as a business leader, we do have a responsibility to our investors and to our employees and to those that place their trust in us. But your responsibility is not to be the messiah. You’re not God. You need to go to bed when it’s time to go to bed. And then you need to wake up and be diligent and have the mindset of Psalm 127. Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain to build it. OK, so that means that we have to build a house. Doesn’t say pray God to build a house. All right. It says, unless the Lord is involved in this, it’s not going to work out anyway. OK. And so my job is to do what I’m supposed to do to frame this thing that was solid foundation to follow the blueprint. And then every good thing in my life is because of the grace of God and all that. Anybody who invests in me or who looks to me for leadership should want to see is that I’m doing everything that a man entrusted with the privilege of my position should do. And that’s your job is not to be a savior and not to save anything, but to work humbly, to work diligently, to work well in teams and to work in a way that isn’t just to further your best interests, but to honor God in all things. [00:23:53][188.0]
William: [00:23:54] Amen. William here. Thank you so much for walking through that. And as we think about this, I’m captivated by this specific virus where so far the number one thing they’re telling people is to stay home. Right. And to stay away from people. And so I think you did a great job walking us through the idea of listen and take care of yourself and do what people are saying. [00:24:14][20.6]
[00:24:15] But as churches are being canceled, as in-person gatherings are being taken away, and as that is the best way that we’re kind of hearing that we can love people, it seems like an odd dynamic where typically you would run and run to people you would want to be there, especially in the hospitals. I think about I’ve heard some terrible podcasts, right. I mean, a lot of these people are passing away with their loved ones, not their right, because they can’t be there. It’s just a very tough situation. And my wife and I were struggling with, you know, what does loving people well, look like right now. And as you have all have looked at that from watermarks perspective and your congregation’s perspective, what is the loving others look like while avoiding contact with them in this season? [00:24:57][42.6]
Todd: [00:24:59] So, yeah, we’re having to innovate, right? We all know that necessity is the mother of invention. And so we are having to innovate right now because listen, part of being a good citizen is asking how my actions are going to potentially affect others. We’re seeing a lot of the blogs that are out there right now. Is that the younger generation who is always fearless in the face of any kind of warning from any kind of authority they like is not that big a deal. A big I guess it’s just kind of a bad flu in my age group. Is that particularly at risk? Well, that might be well and good, but your age group interacts with other age groups and other age groups are a little bit more susceptible to probably some of the more adverse effects of the flu or specifically of the Corona virus. And so you have to be wise. And so again, Luther said this I would avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed or to keep myself being contaminated. Because I don’t want you to take a chance and in fact, and pollute others. I don’t know. Like Henry talked about how much we want to make this really about the Corona virus. But you know, the issue with this, the big flattening the curve ideology that’s out there is because of the fact that our nation is better supplied with hospital beds and ventilators than any nation on earth in terms of number. But we also have 300 roughly million people and we got a million hospital beds. So the entire at risk population is exposed to this virus, which they’re more likely to be exposed to it the more that they interact with carriers. And we don’t know who the carriers are. That’s what’s so sinister about this thing that our cavalier ness could put others at risk. So we don’t believe that we’re being good neighbors. If we just act like it doesn’t matter if I get it and it doesn’t matter if I give it to somebody else because I might give it to somebody else who puts people at risk, it won’t really get the care that they need at a particular time. [00:26:49][110.6]
[00:26:50] So I think we have to be wise. We have to again do nothing from selfishness or conceit. But at the same time, we don’t want to live in fear. I mean, a frightened world needs a fearless church. But let’s not use our fearlessness as an excuse to be reckless. OK. And so the Bible rewards obedience and faithfulness, not risk taking. And as a businessman, sometimes you take calculated risks. You step out what you would say in business faith. Would you look at the analytics and you look at the opportunities before you and you do your cost basis analysis as best you can and then you go? I think it’s worth I think I see a market opportunity is not guaranteed, but part of you using your intellect and your skills, you take some steps that are a bit of a risk, OK, and always have different risk profiles. Let me just say this to you. My point here is that in the midst of this, we don’t want to do anything just so that God has to show up. We want to walk with a God who’s already present in a way that other people look us to go. That was wise. That was insightful. That was selfless and not motivated by greed. [00:27:56][66.6]
Henry: [00:27:57] That’s a fascinating topic about the juxtaposition of obedience next to risk. And what I’m hearing and picking up from you is that there’s a lot of nuance around rescue, not saying don’t look at opportunities and seize them and don’t knock off into battle when there’s clearly a battle that to be fought. But wanton risk is not something that the Bible talks a lot about. And I think that’s interesting for our audience to hear because so oftentimes we think that entrepreneur equals risk. If you stay in your salaried position, that’s not risky. But if I’m an entrepreneur, I’m stepping out and I’m going to go ahead. I’m a lean forward into risk. And I think that’s really interesting. And I think that it’s a great opportunity for entrepreneurs that are listening this to pray through. [00:28:39][42.0]
[00:28:39] What does that mean? Am I ever taking risk at the expense of being obedient on this podcast? I think we’ve talked in past about the good kings of Judah who went off and then took some risks and didn’t seek God and things went poorly for them and they were the good kings of Judah. Bad trade deal went off in a war when they weren’t supposed to. So what does it look like for us as entrepreneurs to be obedient during this time but all times? And are we ever erring on the side of taking risk? Because that’s what we think we supposed to do and entrepreneurs and leaving obedience by the wayside. I’d love that. [00:29:13][33.3]
Todd: [00:29:13] And one of the things I’ll just add, especially as Christians, words really, really matter. The Bible tells us all that God’s opposed to the property gives grace to the humble. It says, Your younger members submit to your elders and all of you clothe yourself in humility with one another. [00:29:27][14.3]
[00:29:28] And so as a leader, I would really encourage you to be very careful when you say things like, well, I really believe God wants me to do this. Sometimes I hear guys say this and I’m like, well, look, if you believe that God wants you to do this, then it’s not risky to do it. It’s risky to not do it. OK, because again, I want to just oppose, as you just said, risk from obedience and faithfulness is obedience. And so we have to ask ourself this. Did God tell me to do it? If God asked me to do it? And I’m his, then. I should even ask people to pray about it with me. But I think most of the time when we mean when we say that, you know, is a habit to kind of throw this out there, and maybe if it doesn’t work, then, you know, it’s not my fault because I was just trying to be faithful with God called me to do well. God is not a man. He’s a liar, son of man. He should repent, the scripture says. And so God’s not going to make mistakes. And so if God tells you to build a boat in the middle of a desert where there’s never been a rain inside the earth’s environment, that’s not risky. But you better know that God’s called you to do something. It’s also OK, though, to say, hey, guys, I as best I can as a man who’s studied and worked and gotten more proficient in analysis and leadership assessment, I believe there’s an opportunity here. And I really this is what businessmen do. They ask others. To have faith in them that they assess the situation correctly. And look, we’re not always gonna get it right. And the one thing that we can’t say to people when we’re talking in the business environment here. If you obey God’s word, you’re always going to get it right. But as it pertains to a business decision, one of the things that people will do is they want to follow individuals that will invite them into the process and not act like they’ve got all the answers they can share, why they believe this is the right thing to do, the analysis and the work. OK. They’re not just some slick salesmen. There’s not just a deck out there that tobi’s gonna be impressed with, but that you can come and lay before them your thoughtful work and then not intimidate them or even feel rejected if their risk assessment is different than yours, and that environments would love them by bringing them an opportunity. And if that thing is supposed to work out, it will. And if not, you did your best to try and create the opportunity and the pitch. Investors, I think and you were telling me that you get solicited a lot. Right. You say no to 9 out of 100 folks. And that’s not because those ninety nine did know God’s will. It’s because for that thing to happen this particular moment, you’re not gonna be a part of God’s provision. And men should walk away from you, not with bitterness or with a sense of disgust or some sense that you don’t trust me, but a sense of a Henry. Thank you that you gave me thoughtful consideration and loved me enough to believe I was even worthy of the conversation. And would you just pray that I see if this is not something I should do, or that God would give me the strength and perseverance to continue and then Godspeed. On we go. And we’re brothers. So I really mean, this is an interesting and fascinating conversation because God doesn’t guarantee us anything but that he’ll be with us and that each and every day we should consume ourselves with a desire to be faithful. And faithfulness is not to make success for ourselves. Success and prosperity scripturally is that this book of the law would not depart from my mouth. So I’d be careful to do according to all that is written in it. So faith based investor, invest deeply in your faith and just don’t slap it or God that the outcome has to be what you thought the outcome would be. Go to bed knowing that you were faithful and that you weren’t pursuing idols or trying to force God into your wonderful plan for your life. Follow him. [00:33:16][227.8]
Henry: [00:33:17] Yeah. That’s a theme we talk about a lot and it’s great to hear you look at it from a different angle here in terms of obedience. And we talk a lot about the difference between being willful or faithful or as kipping. I’m talking about whether we’re striving or contending, striving, being on your own power by contending, being with God’s power and in God’s power. I think there’s a lot about obedience in here as well. [00:33:39][22.0]
Rusty: [00:33:40] Todd, I love that whole idea. And what Henry was saying, too, about risk and obedience. Can you just dive in further on obedience for us? Because it’s such a hard thing so many times for us to figure out, are we really being obedient? And I think it’d be really helpful for all of us and me personally during this time. [00:33:58][18.3]
Todd: [00:34:00] Well, one of the things that we, you know, want to be as just individuals that are aligned with our sovereign king and you know, we are I tell you guys all the time to BYO that I want to go down for me as a servant of Christ and a steward of the mysteries of God. And that would be true if I continue to my legal career or if I go into business one day. I just want to say to my friends that are listening right here and just reminds you, we are a part of the royal priesthood together. We are a holy nation together. We are people of God’s own possession together. This clergy laity distinction is as unfounded biblically as the secular spiritual divide that some people have with the way they act on a Sunday or what they think about on a Sunday. And then Monday through Friday. You know, when they deal with Wall Street and investors, they go away. This is business. OK. Well, our business is always to be servants of Christ and to be steward of the mysteries of God. And so you want to just make sure that you’re not walking in the way the way you’re standing in the path, the center sitting with the scoffers. But your delight is in the law of the Lord. And on that law, you’re meditating day and night. So all of your principles need to be governed by who you say you are. Not on Sunday. But when you made a decision that Jesus was your king. All right. This should affect you in every aspect of your life. So worship. We don’t call our large gathering at watermarked the worship center. All right. If this was a video podcast, I would be pointing to my chest right now and say, this is the worship center. Right. My life is to use the words of Paul and Corinthians is the temple of God. All of us are worshipers. Jesus and John Ford just said, hey, there’s going to be a day when you can worship me on this hill or that hill, but you going to worship me in spirit and truth. You don’t need to have a central temple idea of worship or the sacrifices made because your life now I’m quoting Romans Twelve. Your life is a living and holy sacrifice which is responding to the sacrifice of Christ. That was once and for all made. So the temple sacrifices are necessary. And so that is our charge and our call. And so I and every large corporate gathered at watermarked with this little phrase that now it’s become hagwon. I saw a bunch of high school kids wear t shirts and then text messages with hashtag hagwow. And I go, what is hagwow? They laugh and go Todd, it’s what you say every single week when we get ready to leave. It stands for have a great week of worship, right? HAGWOW. And you know, that idea is when we leave our corporate time of remembering the goodness of God and reminding each other to respond to him. That’s when worship really starts. Well, we just got through was corporate celebration, corporate encouragement and equipping. But now we’re going to goby worshipers. And so what we’re going to do at work is worship. Work is worship. We say it all the time, right. In these environments that the work of the church is the church at work. So my job is to, if anything, as a pastor to encourage you and reminds you that God made you a businessman for a reason and be the best kind of businessman that is consumed with honoring Christ and everything. You know, I don’t wanna quote more Luther, but he’s got an amazing quote about a cobbler and the way the kind of shoes that he makes. I heard. I think there’s bread and manning. That said, you can be sure that there were no cricket chairs coming out of the carpenter shop in Nazareth. Right. And so there should be nothing crooked about the way you are leading your company or the way you’re making decisions. [00:37:41][221.0]
Rusty: [00:37:42] That’s really great. So we can now say it again. HAGWOW. Have a great week of worship. Great. So we used to have BHAG’s and now we’ve got HAGWOW I love it every day. [00:37:53][10.8]
Todd: [00:37:53] Hey, I like you better make sure you BHAG’s run through the HAGWOW grid. Right. Go ahead. I think it’s goal to honor Christ in all things as a worshiper. [00:38:03][9.3]
William: [00:38:04] Hey, before we get on, you were mentioning an article that you read in the Harvard Business Review recently that had some great truth in it about our current time and also about how we can do business as well. [00:38:15][11.2]
Todd: [00:38:15] Yeah, I’ll tell you why this is worth maybe pointing to. And so, you know, I’ll just share this with you. I don’t get to spend a lot of time with the hard news review, but I do have a friend that said, Hey, Todd, you would like this article. So, you know, I source articles lots of different ways. Sometimes I’m reading on my own time times a guy pay me. This is one that my buddy Jeff Ward, who is such a faithful friend here, who was a lawyer and is now on our staff team, he’s the one that turned me on to this. But the title of it, it was just written, gosh, three days ago. It’s called the Corona Virus. Christus doesn’t have to lead to layoffs. Now, here’s why I’m pointing you guys to this. [00:38:45][29.5]
[00:38:45] Whenever you read an article in the Harvard Business Review or any book by anybody, you want to read it in the same way that Paul and Luke said that the Bryans listen to him preach. Right, because you are being influenced by what you meditate on. And we should bet, Ted on the word of God. But we should absolutely be unafraid to be in conversation with people who bring across different ideas. I just wanna always test those ideas up against the word of God. So the Breen’s and Act 1711 says they were more noble minded than those who were deslonde icons because they listened to what Paul was saying and they tested it or they took it to the scriptures to see if those things were so. So when you read a Harvard Business Review article, what you want to do is just go, huh? Some of these suggestions that are in here, not only do they seem to maybe make sense, they’re also aligned with what we just got through, talking about what it means for me to be a servant of Christ, what it means for me to be a worshiper in the way that I lead in this particular moment. And so these guys did a decent job of just saying a couple of headlines in this thing. We’re like, hey, communicate openly. In other words, too many leaders assume that if we show any weakness and we tell our employees or our investors that we’re not really sure which is going to turn out, they’ll see us as a weak leader and they’re gonna want to abandon us or look for a different company when in fact, the very opposite is true. They love the openness. I mean, the scriptures say that. So here’s where I would say that idea is biblical, where it says that the goal of our instruction is love. A pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. I’m not managing information. To you, I’m going to be open about what I’m wrestling with and what I see potentially coming and what I’m doing to mitigate against a myriad of circumstances. The job of a leader is to anticipate what is coming right and is to define reality. And so one of the ways that you can help your employees is to just say, hey, listen, I’ve seen four or five potential tomorrows, not worried about them, but faithfulness in my role would be to consider how each of these could impact us. And certainly we all see certain things. Here’s some of my thinking about it. Here’s some of my concern and some vulnerabilities that I think we have in light of these things. And then the article goes on to say, one of the things that you might want to do is in the midst of being open and sharing, the plan is considering to crowdsource different ideas, which biblically is exactly what God’s word will tell us to do. I mean, he who isolates himself, the Bible says, seeks his own desire. He calls against all sound wisdom. And so there are ways to just ask others. Right. You want to wage war with wise consultation. The scripture says that the fool is more wise in his own eyes and seven men who give a discreet answer. So listen to other people and just say, hey, help me think through this. Here’s my plan. I’m not just numbed in activity, but I’m also not going to confuse motion with progress. So what do you think of these plans and what are some ideas that you have? So anyway, there’s just a number of different things that I saw these guys in this article talk about that I go, that is good advice because it lines up with what I see in the good book. So you should read every Harvard Business Review article, every Jim Collins book, and you should listen every Todd Wagner message at Watermarked Dawg the same way and just say, is it true? Is it founded in scripture? I love the way the article ends because it mentions and I can’t speak Swedish, but it ends with just that a leader should have ice in his belly and they use a phrase from a proverb in the Nordic countries that just talked about how a leader doesn’t get upset because his stomach is in effect strengthened and cooled by ice in his belly. [00:42:30][224.6]
[00:42:31] I would tell you that the scripture says the same thing, right? But that he was slack in the day of distress. The strength is limited. And as I said a while ago on the podcast. Far be it from us as God’s people that we should read more marked by fear, insecurity, anxiety and despair than by faithfulness and hope in our tomorrow. Even if that doesn’t turn out the way that we wanted to. From an investment standpoint or a future wildly successful career for me, if I’ve done what I should do with integrity, it’s successful. [00:43:07][35.9]
William: [00:43:09] Amen. Well, unfortunately, we have to bring the podcast to a close here. I would love to spend more time going through some of these topics and hopefully move some time on another podcast. But as we do come to a close, we always like to bring our Faith Driven Entrepreneur and our faith driven investor audiences into what God is doing right now in your life and in the life of our guests. It’s amazing how God’s word shapes itself through our listeners and through our guest. And so if you wouldn’t mind telling us maybe where God has you in his word. It could be in the season leading up to it. It could be this morning, something he may have placed in your heart and what he’s teaching you through the good book. [00:43:45][35.3]
Todd: [00:43:45] Well, my mind competed right then for five different places in the scripture. I was hanging out a little bit earlier today, but I think I want to go to this one. It’s at the very end of Deuteronomy right now. Kind of by reading through the Bible. I’ve been in Deuteronomy much. And so at the very end of Chapter 4, this is what it says. And I use this one because I think it’s just a good reminder for us all to have in season and out of season. That’s what the scripture means in Timothy when Paul says it. Timothy. We’re not just Christians when it’s convenient and we don’t just give God glory and honor when everything is up and to the right. Right in season and out of season. I want to be a man of the book. All right. So, by the way, in Deuteronomy Chapter 8, God says, hey, listen, I’m the one who gives you the power to make well. He’s also the one that gives you the ability. Now, I’m quoting from Philippians for. To do well in seasons where it’s not turning out the way that you had planned or had hoped. What I want you to know in the midst of every season and whether you’re in the midst of plenty or want, whether you are well-fed or hungry. Paul has learned the secret of contentment. And that secret was learned by Moses and Moses, who trying to remind the people of Israel to it. So this is what Moses says in Deuteronomy Chapter 4, and I’ll paraphrase the first part of this section of the end. And then our region specific parts. But basically in verse 32, he starts by just saying, just go back and remember who I am. So for the Christian, go back and remember what Christ has done for you in Romans 8 says you did not spare his own son, but deliver him up for sale, will you? Not also with him freely. Give us all things. So man was wonderful that he split the sea for the Israelites as they came out of Egypt. It’s wonderful that, you know, he covered the mountain fire. But what he’s done for you is even more wonderful. So remember the things that God has done for you. He says in verse 33, has anyone ever heard the voice of God speaking in the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and survived? Guys, we have the Bible in our hands and we can open it up to read every single day. And then a verse 34. He goes on just the list and the different things that he has done. But this is what I want you to hear. OK. He says, listen. Verse 40. So you shall keep the statutes and his commandments, which I’m giving you today, so that it may go well with you and with your children after you and that you may live long the land which the Lord your God is giving you for all time. This is what I would love our business leaders in this day and age to know there is something called gospel blessing. It’s what Paul is talking about in Philippians 4. And it’s very different than the perverted prosperity gospel. The Prosperity Gospel says that going well with you means you’re never going to get sick, which is crazy that your business deals always going to work out. You’re gonna be healthier, wealthier, wiser than you’ve ever been. Well, the wiser part will be true, but the wealthier part, I don’t know. Some faithful men. The Bible says we’re sworn in, too, and we’re fed to the lions. And sometimes God shut them out of lions. And sometimes you delivered people from certain death. I don’t know what your tomorrow is going to be. I just know that God is going to let you have his peace and whatever tomorrow brings. If you walk with him. And so that phrase in Deuteronomy, chapter four, verse 40 that it may go well with you is not to be distorted, to mean that your business is going to work. It means that the way you work in your business is going to end with you hearing the words. Well done, good and faithful servant. Sometimes God might love you just enough to let you be tested with a trial. He did that with Joe. And if anything, there’s not a health, wealth and prosperity trajectory for godly men. There is. I’m going to put you in situations that no men can continue to sink raises for me. Just to show that you love me and not things. That was certainly what he did with Job. [00:47:39][234.0]
William: [00:47:44] Amen, thank you so much for the good work. Todd, thank you for sharing your time with us. I know it’s a crazy time and I know you have a congregation that you’re chaperoning and for you to pay off in time to shepherd our congregation as well as just a true blessing. [00:47:58][13.5]
Todd: [00:47:58] Well, hey, guys, it’s a privilege. I really am grateful for you men as business leaders, the way that you are putting your faith to work. And through this podcast, through your ministry, through your gathering of guys and the fact that we’re doing to do it in person, September is going to be really, really exciting. So I’m humbled that you thought this was a good use of your time. And let’s just pray the Lord uses it to encourage people. [00:47:58][0.0]