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On today’s podcast we have the joy and privilege to hear from an investor and entrepreneur team that met via the Faith Driven Marketplace. Investor Tom Lernihan was moved by the mission and simple solution of the company Pureflow founded and led by Jared Fulks and Collin Wenrich. 

After traveling around the world to Uganda, Collin had a revelation as his calling zipped past him on the road in the form of a motorcycle… also known as a boda. Anyone who has visited this part of the world knows that motorcycles are the one primary way to get around. In fact, being a “Boda Boda” driver is one of the fastest growing occupations in East Africa–home to more than 1 million motorcycle drivers. However, after further research, Collin discovered that less than 20% of all these drivers actually own their motorcycles. And so began Pureflow. 

After investing a few thousand dollars of his own money and striking up a deal with only 6 boda boda drivers, Collin went pedal to the metal. Since launching Pureflow and partnering with Tom, Pureflow has grown to more than 100 drivers and counting. Together Collin, Jared and Tom share why they do and how they continue to grow without outscaling their culture, purpose and impact.

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman joining you today and I’m here with my good friend and partner, Luke Roush. Luke, how are you doing?

Luke Roush: I’m doing great. It’s going to be on. I love the story we’re going to be able to profile today. I love seeing entrepreneurs and investors coming together to further the mission that they’re on. So I’m excited for our story here.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. I think we all are. And we’ve got three fantastic guests today, all coming together with a similar mission. They actually met through or at least started interacting through the marketplace, which we’re going to come to, which is a really exciting story. But we’ve got Colin and Jared and Tom here coming from different walks of life to really invest for the kingdom. And so maybe just to start off, guys, give us the two or 3 minutes on each of you, just your backgrounds and how you got interested in this space. And then let’s start to talk about how you got introduced to one another and came together, maybe lead off. Jared, let’s start with you.

Jared Fulks: Yeah, awesome. So, Jared, folks, I’m based in Atlanta, Georgia. My wife and I live right outside the city. And my story began in Columbus, Ohio. I grew up a pastor’s kid. And I thought I went to college to play basketball and I thought that was going to be the end all, be all, become a college basketball coach. I quickly learned that there’s a lot of steps between dreaming that and actually doing that and after an injury in college, ended up transferring to Liberty University in Virginia. That’s a part of the story later. But after college, God did let me live out the dream a little bit, coaching semi-pro basketball in England. And the reason I got pulled back to the States was I was now dating my now wife and so came back and we got married four years ago and quickly jumped into entrepreneur space here in Atlanta in the tech space. And I loved it. I had this tension, though, full time ministry, full time business. God, what did you want to use me for while you’ve given me this life? And so my wife and I started praying. And after about three years of praying, God reconnected the dots with the fellow peer from Liberty, which was Colin. So I’ll kick it over to him. But that’s how our stories got reconnected five years later, after we’d both gone our separate ways.

Collin Wenrich: So my name is Collin Wenrich born and raised Bay Area out in California. And my story really starts when I went to school at Liberty University. And so when I was over at Liberty University, I was pursuing an electrical engineering degree. The Lord quickly rerouted me, sent me on a commercial corporate aviation path, and admits that after about two and a half years, he then sent me on a wild adventure to Uganda. And at that point I teamed up with 15 other young adults based out of actually right outside Atlanta. I think it was over in Gainesville, Georgia, through adventures and missions and sent us for four months to Uganda. I had no idea what I was going to be doing other than I was going to be in Uganda for four months. So we ended up partnering with some local organizations, some local churches out there, and I quickly fell in love with the culture, quickly fell in love with the people. I had no idea how my skill set or what I was passionate about in life was going to align with the future in Uganda. And the Lord did His work in the near future after that. But I knew quickly that it was going to be a part of my future. So I called my parents, called my family. After three months, I said, Buckle up, it’s going to be a wild ride because Uganda is going to be a significant part of my future. So I finished up my four months, came back to the States, finished up my degree, moved over to Uganda to start a ministry. And this is where I had some of the similar tension points that Jared It was like I was full time missions, but then people would always ask me about the sustainability aspect. And so two years after being a full time missionary in Uganda, I started to wrestle with God on what it looked like to start a business. And then we’ll fast forward to Pureflow here soon.

Luke Roush: Awesome. It’s awesome. Awesome.

Tom Lernihan: Guys, good to be here today. My name is Tom Lernihan based in Indianapolis and I lead a venture fund called His Fund as a reference. These are God’s resources and we’re here to steward them on a way to bring him glory. And we focus on investing in faith driven entrepreneurs that have a social mission and an opportunity to create jobs in under-resourced communities. And I can’t think of any better example than Pureflow in what Jared and Collin have built over the last several years, we’ve built up a portfolio of investments that are industry agnostic. They’re focused on four main geographic regions, US, primarily, East Africa, Southeast Asia and Central America. And what we’re really looking for is just partnering with entrepreneurs that have, you know, an opportunity to do incredible things. And we get the blessing to work with great guys like what we’re here talking to about today.

Luke Roush: So the beginning of every great love story or every great investment partnership, there’s a spark usually. Thank you for sharing a little bit about each your backgrounds, but I want to hear about the spark when you guys first connected and what caused you to want to learn more and get to know each other and do life together.

Tom Lernihan: Well, I’ll start first. If you haven’t heard the story of Pureflow, what they’re doing. A great place to start is by going to their website and watching their founder story. That’s my first exposure to what they’re building, what they’re trying to do, and it’s an awesome example. It’s a four minute video and I can’t recommend it higher. It gives a great lens into just the mission and the focus on what they’re trying to do at Pureflow. And after watching probably 2 minutes of this four minute video, I was hooked. I said, I’m in, I’m ready to go. Let’s do this. And then got an opportunity to connect with Jared and Collin shortly thereafter and just was instantly connected and aligned with mission and what they’re doing and just was really passionate about finding a way to join on and help in the mission, what they’re trying to do.

Luke Roush: And so what was the original inspiration around the idea? Maybe Jared and Collin share a little bit about what got put on your heart or what you saw that then forced you to say, Hey, we’ve got to do something here, which is usually what creates new companies. Great companies are born out of an unmet need that an entrepreneur resonates with and then wants to do something about. Maybe just share a little bit about that founding vision story.

Collin Wenrich: Yeah, absolutely. So when I was full time ministry out in Uganda, I had about it was about a mile and a half walk to and from our partnerships every single day. I did not have a vehicle and I wasn’t riding motorbikes at the time, so it was like good old fashioned two feet. Took me everywhere. And during that walk, I would just stop and talk. You know, I didn’t really have a lot of time constraints. So all along the way there would be these Botha stages which are like these areas where the motorcycle taxis would group together, they’d hang out and that’s where their business would be focused out of. And so I would just stop and talk with them, just shoot the breeze, just catch up, get to know their names, what they’re doing, their families. And I knew a little bit of the local language at the time, so I would say a few things and make them laugh and we’d joke around and then I’d continue, you know, after building some of those relationships through some months into the years, you know, I started to ask more in-depth questions and started to realize that, you know, these guys were on these motorcycles. Some of them looked absolutely terrible and they didn’t own them. They had no ownership, no equity within these motorcycles that at that point had no idea how much they cost it. But when I soon started to figure out, like, you know, what are the values of these motorcycles, it was raising some red flags and some questions that guys have been paying seven or eight years on these bikes, but there were only 12, 13 hundred dollars to acquire. And so really it was just through walking up and down town, asking questions, building relationships with these guys over a period of two years. Then we started that’s when we started to address the issue that was literally right in front of us the whole time.

John Coleman: That’s wild. So you got a sense of this market that most people probably wouldn’t even know exist, or actually it’s a market failure over there where there’s not really local financing available in the way that we’d think about that in the U.S.. How did you start to identify the way in which you could engage with this problem, and how did you begin to set up that business in its infancy?

Collin Wenrich: Yeah, so it was that was the fun part of it. When we saw the issue and I say we at this point it was a business partner. He was actually working on the ministry side with me at that point and myself. And we knew at the centric focus of why we wanted to do what we were doing, it was all Christ based. It’s like we want to share the gospel with these guys. You see them working day in and day out and I mean seven days a week, 14, 15 hours a day. They’re driving people, they’re driving things, they’re putting bunk beds on the back of hundred cc motorcycles, and they’re going and there’s no time for rest. There’s limited time for family, and there’s absolutely no time to sit and worship. And so it was one of these instances where it’s like, okay, you can rent to them, you can make some money, you can pour it back into the ministry. That’s great. Okay, we can sell these bikes, but we’re still not doing anything of significant value here. How do we give them a chance to own the bike but go on a journey with them? And in that journey, how do we teach these guys, teach them about their finances, teach them about how to lead their families, and ultimately, how do we get them around the table to share the gospel with them? And so it was all based around how do we get these guys together at a table to share the gospel?

John Coleman: That’s awesome. And at some point, you know, every business for most businesses come to this point where they can’t bootstrap it anymore. Their personal finances aren’t going to cover the model, which is where the investment community comes in. Maybe Jared and Collin talked to us about how you got to that point and when you needed the capital, when you realized you needed to go out and find capital to support the business, what was that decision making process and how did you decide to go where you went?

Collin Wenrich: Yeah, so originally we had started with $6,000. We bought a six bikes at that point, and so we would inject revenue as fast as we could to get another member on the bike, because as soon as we launched this program, it was a hot commodity and people were signing up. We had over 100 applications. Within ten days. So at that point, it was inject revenue as fast as we can and then it was do it again, get to bike seven, get to bike eight, get to bike nine. Then Grandma came on board and was like, I love it. I was like, All right, let’s do it, grandma. So Grandma buys Bike ten. But we started to grow and we kept growing organically for a while until we got to about the 100 bike mark. And at the 100 bike mark, you know, Jared came on board and this is where we really started to analyze our finances and our growth and a whole different line of sight.

Jared Fulks: I saw the business for the first time and like you guys would be if you watch the story, as Tom did, I’m in the same boat as Tom. I was just inspired by the story. And so at the time, my wife and I agreed that I could just give 40 hours of work to Pureflow for free because I was about the vision. And I said, this is going to serve a lot of people. And so that’s how we started. Collin was back stateside because of the pandemic. It was early 2020 and the businesses is kind of in this uneasy ground of does it grow organically? Does it scale now? And I saw the model. I said, look at the numbers and come out of the tech startup space where we had raised money. I was like, I think there’s funds here. But we battled the back and forth of nonprofit or for profit. Could we crowdfund motorcycles? And the challenge with that is, is, you know, how do you move the money? How quickly can it scale? And are we just trying to put heart strings to tell the story to people to get crowdfunding? Or on the flip side, do we go to investors? And Collin and I had no idea about the impact investing space. I mean, Faith Driven Investor Faith Driven Entrepreneur was not on any of our radars, and so we started just doing a little digging in and that’s how we got into the space and sort of finding the right partners to partner with.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. And I think you all actually connected with Tom via the marketplace. If if if I’m correct, Tom, maybe just from your perspective, talk to us about why you got involved in the marketplace and why you viewed that as a platform where you could find great entrepreneurs like this and how you came together with this team.

Tom Lernihan: Yeah, absolutely. The marketplace has been an excellent resource for the work that we do. We built up a network over the last several years where most of our investments have come through some sort of warm introduction into a business. But the marketplace is quickly replacing that for us, where we can go on and find really high quality investment opportunities that are very much right in our wheelhouse and the types of deals that we like to support. And one of those that we came across was Pureflow. It’s just really easy to see the impact and alignment on what they’re trying to do with square in the center of what our fund is set up to achieve. So it was a very seamless process for we’re able to connect with Collin and kind of reach out via the marketplace and get scheduled on a call. And from the very first interaction, we knew right away that this was a business that we wanted to partner with and help them grow to, you know, significantly more bikes than they had in the first round.

Luke Roush: So there’s always these choices to make around how quickly you want to grow and the pace of expansion of the business versus sort of control and the ability to kind of measure carefully before you have to start cutting. How have you guys modulated that sort of desire to have more impact, but also desire to understand the mission in the model of the business? Maybe just speak a little bit to how you’ve regulated on that front?

Jared Fulks: Yeah, it’s a question we ask often, and guys like Tom, Luke, you might know from spending time over in Asia, but there’s a lot of bikes, there’s a lot of guys that don’t own the bikes. So the market’s big. You don’t have to look very far to find market opportunity. And Tom, having spent a good bit of time in East Africa, understood that more so than I think most partners would understand if you haven’t set foot on the ground there, and honestly, more so than I understood until I first saw it. And so you would then ask that question how fast you scale. And to be honest, when we first did our first round of debt financing, we really didn’t know what the end goal was. And we still don’t really know what the end goal is. But what we knew was that we want to scale where our culture doesn’t get lost in the scaling. So we kind of measured our scale speed based on our culture and our people. That was kind of from day one. It’s about the people on both sides of the coin. And now we’ve kind of refined that more specifically and our growth strategy around this concept that we never will out scale the table. So Collin mentioned earlier that the goal is to get these guys around the table every week because they’re not in a local church. A lot of them are not in relationship with Jesus. I mean, a lot of the places we work, you have many different religions represented. And so the heartbeat of Pureflow is to get guys to the table. Because if we read through Jesus’s life, that’s where change was happening. That’s where brokenness was revealed. That’s where he was able to be love, light and speak truth to people. And so our goal is to get people around the table as often as we can so our guys are paying off their loan over two years. 104 payments. That means 104 times they’re getting fed spiritually and physically for 30 to 45 minutes at a table with ten other guys. And there’s no misses. So that’s for 104 weeks. Again, have been worked in the church before? That far outweighs a lot of the small group models that I’ve tried to implement. And so we love that. So at this point, yeah, we want to scale to more markets, but we don’t want to out scale the table. And in order to serve people at the table, it requires the Pureflow team to be understanding of our core values, which the number one is serve with purpose. And so if we outgrow our values and we outgrow the table, it’s our indicator, if you will, of or out scaling the impact we want to have.

Luke Roush: So I want to ask the question actually, it’s a little bit awkward and I’ll go ahead and acknowledge the awkwardness on the front end. But I want to hear actually challenges maybe Jared and Collin, from your perspective as you progressed through the last couple of years and then maybe also from Tom’s perspective, key obstacles, challenges that you’ve had to overcome.

Collin Wenrich: Yeah, I can start on like in the beginning when we first launched this program, we had a little bit of backlash from like local loan sharks and some guys who are running some mom and pop shops with spare parts and fixing bikes. And especially when we built our first permanent building, you know, day one of opening, they shut us down and they shut us down for about two and a half weeks as it was kind of there was a lot of like petty litigation that we had to proceed through. And so really on that part, too, it was getting the community to understand, like, why we’re here and what we’re doing. And it wasn’t because we wanted to sell more bikes than a distributor, right? It wasn’t because we wanted to take the other loan sharks and take all of their bikes. Our core focus. Right, was to disciple these guys and get them financially literate to get them and savings groups and just give them and allow them the opportunity to become the godly men that we see in them. And so once we really built some platforms for the community to also get involved and for us to get integrated within the community, we started to see those type of challenges subside. So that was like the first, probably first two years. And then I can let Jared share on the most recent ones.

Jared Fulks: Yeah, anytime you run to come to an organization, you guys can imply some of the challenges that you might face, starting with, you know, the Zoom stuff that we all love. And so that’s one thing. And structuring our leadership to scale was a big shift that we made over the last 18 months, putting people not only in the right place in the bus, but also ensuring that their understanding of what that role and responsibility entails. Because our team is really young, we have 27 full time team members now, which is awesome. I mean when I came on, I think we at like maybe seven or eight two years ago and so scaling that along with the member side of it, again, we really want to focus on our team and now we have five branches, three main branches and two sub branches. And so the dynamics of that are a great healthy challenge for Collin and I on a daily basis of how do we best serve our team, how do we best cast a vision that pulls the people and our team towards the vision and it develops leaders? Because what we realize is that we’re going to promote from within. And so we need people that are focused on developing leaders and not just ensuring that we we get paid by our members. So I think that’s a good challenge to have, but nonetheless a challenge that we’ve come across.

John Coleman: So I love that y’all have talked about the spiritual impact on the individuals that you’re working with, and that’s such a neat engagement model. Talk to me about the broader impact. So obviously you’re filling a need in the community. What is that doing to these communities, the kind of economic and social impact on the community itself, on the individuals involved. And maybe, Tom, as they describe that, I’d love to hear you describe how you think about this difference between the social and individual and spiritual impact in the financial return that you’re getting. How do you balance those things as you look at the model that they’re creating?

Jared Fulks: I think the four big things we look at in the community that happen as a result of these guys owning this asset, which just for some frame of reference, when they own it, they double their take home income. So I kind of ask the question to everyone listening and I ask it to myself when I think about the impact financially is what would happen if you double your take home income? What would you do? And it’s surprising enough they do the same things that we would do. And it kind of comes in these four buckets of build. They build things, they invest in things they give and they save. And I think those are the same buckets that we would find ourselves in if we doubled the income that we took home. And so you can imagine what that does. Downward effect for families, multi-generational impact around kids not getting private education. They’re growing up under a roof now that’s stable. I mean, you can hear the stories of our members that have finished move to ownership. They’re now getting meat on the table more frequently. And a big thing that happens very, very common. Either they come back for a second bike. So what that means is they’re taking the first bike and they’re going to somebody they’re serving a market that we wouldn’t serve that needs to pay for a used bike. So they’re creating more jobs downstream, but they’re also creating a second source of income either through that second bike or their spouses starting a shop that happens a lot where they have now two incomes for their family because they’ve kind of gotten the chance to get above water to breathe for a little bit.

Tom Lernihan: And from an investor perspective, we came into this investment at the onset really excited about the opportunity to create jobs and really substantially increase their income, as Jared had mentioned. And that was our first lens, right? That was what we were really excited about. And you asked a question about how we balance the financial return and the social and spiritual impact. We’re blessed that our fund is set up in a way that we don’t have any financial objectives on what we’re doing. We’re trying to really achieve excellence on finances, but we’re not tied to any sort of metric to hit or to achieve. And so we get the opportunity to deploy capital with a social and spiritual lens first, and they just knock that out of the park. So if we were just looking at this from a job creation perspective, the opportunity to change the communities of these serves is exponential and something, you know, we could totally see this being replicated in many more cities around Uganda and East Africa and encourage that. But it’s really exciting for us when we see the intentional ness that’s there, focus on really investing into the lives of these drivers and focused on how they can serve them in their kingdom lens and really be partners with their drivers. And that was just an incredible experience for us, something that we aspire to replicate in other investments in our portfolio. They’re really leaders in this space and really pouring into the opportunity that they have.

Luke Roush: What you’re also speaking to that resonates with me is just this idea that and it’s sad, but it’s a very rare thing in an emerging market, particularly with jobs or individuals at this level that are not using private cars but are instead using bikes. It’s very unusual for people to actually, you know, care for them, to reach out for them to invest in their kind of growth and development as individuals, to help them think about what is my pathway going forward from here. And so, you know, my guess is that you’ve got raving fans with a really high net promoter score on the individuals that you serve as clients. Is that often the case?

Collin Wenrich: Yeah, I would definitely say that once you are embedded and integrated within the Pureflow family, I mean, it’s a beautiful thing and we love to invite and we love just to remain in relationship with them. You know, one of the hardest things, too, is when you bring new members into the program, is really sometimes getting past the barrier of the core essence of why we’re doing what we were doing, and that is bringing people to the table. Right? So they’ve got to come from where they’re at and we’ve got to come to the table. And sometimes they have to disrupt their daily schedules. Could be 30, 45 minutes to come sit at the table and conversate with us and share a meal. And sometimes it doesn’t make sense, right? Because of their lifestyle. It’s hustle, bustle, go, go, go. And every lost trip, right? That’s the money out of their pocket. That could be less lunch or less a soda or something small, but it’s still less something. And so, you know, Jared and I talk about that to what’s the value add of these touch points, these 102 and 104 touch points that we have with these guys through the duration of their loan. So sometimes is that pushback, right, of I can pay you for this bike, thank you for the program. But I don’t really want to show up at the table to where it’s like you come to the table, you have a meal, you meet with some great guys. Okay, I love it. But you have to do it again. Yes, we got to do it again to really like you start to build the trust, you build the relationship, and then they just keep coming because they want to. And then they get their buddies and they call you from another town and they’re like, Hey, I’ve got buddies who want to do this as well. We want to be discipled. We want to sit around the table like we’re hungry for more of what God has to offer. And those are the beautiful things that we love to experience and be a part of. But sometimes you just got to push through that first barrier.

Jared Fulks: Yeah. And Luke, I’ll say too, you raise an interesting question about the neglection that this part of society faces across most developing countries. And I’ve got a chiropractor friend that I spent some good time with, and he always talks about how we, especially in America, we neglect our backbone, a lot of vertebrae. And so but it has a lot of bad effects. And what people fail to see is that if you look at we estimate there’s over a million boda bodas in Uganda population around 4850 million. So that’s a lot of people doing this one thing. It is the backbone of society. We talk about homes and we talk about health and food and education. Those are all big things. But a lot of times we leave out transportation and you’ve got to have transportation. And so they don’t have a train system and people don’t own cars themselves. And so they have to get around these bodas. So you have two options. You can neglect them or you can figure out how to serve them in the way we look at it is every one of these bikes has a big light on the front of it. That’s the style of the Bajaj Boxer. And what an opportunity as we aim to disciple these guys that they could truly be light moving around the city in thousands at a time and the amount of impact that they have is far greater than we could ever have because they’re touching 50 people a day, giving rides in the back in a pretty intimate setting. Honestly, as close as you are, especially if you pile a whole family on the back of a motorcycle. So yeah, it’s often that neglected part of society, but. So important because they are the backbone of society.

John Coleman: So in a moment, we’re going to pivot and we’re going to ask each of you guys, if you don’t mind, just to comment on a scripture that you’re reading right now and what it means to you and just what you’re learning in the word. Before we do that, just one more thing. Tell us what’s next for Pureflow and is additional capital going to play a part in that as you think about further investment?

Jared Fulks: Yeah. And I’ll pass it off to Tom real quick, because Tom is such an integral part. And I mentioned we raised a little bit of money in 2021 and we saw that and we forex in 2021. And a lot of those great things happened and a lot of the challenges came as well when we did that and we were really not certain what was next. But Tom, can I pass that to you to kind of share maybe a bit of how you encouraged us in the growth stage? Because this really came around that the partnership that we found in Tom and their fund.

Tom Lernihan: Yeah. From the very early days, the vision that Collin and Jared had cast and how many bikes they were hoping to serve and what they could see as their their big, hairy, audacious goal. I looked at and I said, Guys, we can do more. We can serve more drivers. I know that there’s plenty of capital in the market that’s looking to support visions exactly like this. Let’s dream bigger, let’s move faster and let’s go crazy. And it even got to points where Jared and Collin has. Hey, we’ve got a real back, time a bit here. We want to stay laser focused on serving our customers and making sure that we are excellent at Kingdom Impact in everything that we do. So they’ve been really pouring in to me and like at myself, just making sure that I know we’re impactful, focused investors, but still we want to do it with excellence and we want to make sure we’re moving at the right pace. And so I think we’ve gotten to a point where we have a great plan moving forward. I think they have an excellent opportunity to serve a tremendous amount of drivers, and we’ll grow at a pace that’s really sustainable and allows them to continue this for many years to come.

Jared Fulks: Yeah, and to speak to the partnership side, John and Luke, it’s Tom was a huge asset for us in this next stage of funding. We are finishing up 2021 and we’re looking ahead to say if we’re going to continue growing at the pace we are, we’re going to need more cash. So raise a little more debt. And we had a call with Andrew Firman at Faith Driven and he encouraged us to go back to our partners because that’s what they are. They’re partners. And so we went right back to Tom and Tom once he saw where we wanted to go and he aligned again. When you have alignment in this partnership, you can have a lot of fruit that comes from that. And it took us, I think, maybe six months to raise the first bit and we raised like three exact and about six weeks to start off 2022 thanks to the partnership that Tom brought to the table and and being able to connect us to other people on the side of the table he’s on that we don’t spend as much time on. And so we can’t speak highly enough to the value of the partnership and what that means and why we look at our investors as partners and not investors, because we truly are trying to steward resources. That God is given us on all sides of the table to advance the gospel in places all over the world.

John Coleman: And that’s an awesome word. I mean, we see that all the time where, you know, folks will chase the highest value or they may think about their partners in the wrong way, capital partners in a more transactional way. But finding the right capital partner at folks like Tom and others that y’all probably met in this process can be transformational, both on a personal level for an entrepreneur who’s struggling through a ton of problems every day and, you know, encountering things, and then also on an organizational level where they can really help to cast vision, connect you to others who share that vision. And so I think it’s wonderful that you highlighted the depth of that partnership before we close out today. We do like to close just with what you’re learning from the scriptures, what you’re learning in your own spiritual walk, and maybe start with Tom and then go through to Collin and then Jared. Tom, what are you learning from Scripture right now that you want to share with the group?

Tom Lernihan: Yes. Now, I’m always learning, but right now I’m working through Hebrews and it’s the idea that God is an anchor in my life and all that we do, and that we tether that rope tight so that as the world drifts us and as we find ourselves ultimately following that flow, that the anchor, he’s the center of our lives and that we continue to stay on that path. And I share an example earlier. Jared and Collin have been great at just reinforcing that and the work that we do and keeping him central to our investment strategy. And just as a man of faith, keeping that central to my life is what I’m working on right now.

Luke Roush: Love that. You know, if there’s no current, then we don’t need anchors. Except there is a current. The current of this world is not the current that the Lord is necessarily want us to move in the direction of. So I love that word. That’s a good word, Tom.

Collin Wenrich: Yeah, thank you very much. Tom that’s good. I would say, you know, this has been a crazy season of life in such, so many beautiful ways. We were just over in Uganda for the past three months, my wife and myself, and just got back to the States and we found out that we’re pregnant with our first. So we’re very excited. But through that journey and through this time of prayer to have been. Praying and proverbs and Lord has put Proverbs 14 on my heart actually the last few days. It says, Whoever fears the Lord has a secure fortress and for their children it will be a refuge. And it’s really this like my hearts cry, my heart’s call on to the Lord of light. Man, I want to be just one with you attached to the vine. But also, as I raise my children, that they get to see that right, that they seek refuge under their father, who has submitted first and foremost to the Lord. And so that’s been my prayer. Navigating through a future fatherhood here soon and just seeking wisdom in the Lord.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. Congrats, Collin. What a great word. And Jared, I don’t know how you’re going to top a birth announcement to close us out here.

Jared Fulks: I’ve got nothing, man. Can someone closes in prayer? You know that that might be my role here. Now, I have been reminded, and this is part of the journey that I’m so grateful to. Collin, if you talk about partnership, there’s no other word. I would define what happened two years ago after literally stone cold silence for five years, no conversation. I would never have thought of Collins name again. Honestly, he probably wouldn’t have mine other than God intervening at the right time and reconnecting us. But I’m grateful for his partnership. But in this journey to have some perspective shift, when you work with people that live in a different culture than you every day, your perspective just shifts. And I praise God for His grace in allowing us to see that in different ways, that before we didn’t and the psalmist I was reading the last few days is Psalm 48, and it just says like your name oh God, your praise reaches to the ends of the earth, and sometimes the task can seem a little overwhelming. Thinking about Thailand and the Philippines and Russia and Ukraine and and Uganda and the challenges and then looking at, you know, the United States. And that has been a reminder to me that he sees way further than we see. And he’s a creator of it all. And his praise will be made known across the world. And so that’s been a great refresher for me to know that, yeah, there are challenges out there and yes, there’s a urgency to go show the gospel. But but his creation is going to sing his praise, whether we do or not.

John Coleman: It’s a great word, guys. And look, it’s been awesome to learn about Pureflow. Tom, it’s been great to learn about your investment strategy. Great testimony to the marketplace and to faith driven investor broadly bringing folks together like this. And we wish you great luck. I know the prayers of the community are with you, as well as a number of other good capital partners out there, hopefully as you encounter the next wave of growth. And we’re grateful for your time today. Thanks for joining us.

Luke Roush: Thanks, Colin. Thanks, Jared. Thanks, Tom.

Collin Wenrich: Thank you, guys, for having us.

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If you’ve been following the Faith Driven conversation, you’ve no doubt heard the name Tom Nelson. He’s been featured on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast twice, and we’re so glad to get to talk to him about the investing side of this conversation. Tom recently wrote a book titled, The Economics of Neighborly Love. 

In the book, Tom brought his theological insight into the realm of finance and investing. We talked to him about all of this as well as what the good news of Jesus means for economics. 

Marrying biblical study, economic theory, and practical advice, he presents a vision for church ministry that works toward the flourishing of the local community, beginning with its poorest and most marginalized members. Find out more in our conversation. As always, thanks for listening.

Useful Links:

The Economics of Neighborly Love

Video of Tom Talking about the book

Tom Nelson TGC Breakout

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry: [00:02:24] Tom, thank you very much for being on the show today. We’re so grateful that you’ve joined us on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast on our other channel. Your episode there was fantastic. And we’re pleased and privileged and blessed to have had you on before. But we’re also really sad to have you on today to speak to the FDI audience. This is an audience of investors who are looking to store their investment capital for God’s glory. And we all get fired up about having you on board because you’re one of the few writers and authors and pastors. Somebody comes out of the workplace that speaks about not just the workplace. And that’s a great thing that more and more people are focusing on what the church has to do with the workplace. But also economics is a part of your teaching and your ministry. And so you’re in a great perspective to be able to share the views that you have on the economics of the kingdom of God in such a way that I think that we’ll be in a better position to invest better. So perfect for you to be on before we get going. [00:03:23][59.0]

[00:03:23] I’d love for you to tell us a little bit about just generally Made to Flourish. What is Made to Flourish, what’s the work you’re doing, and then generally even go so far as maybe even suggest how it might be able to be helpful for us, an audience of faith of investors. [00:03:39][15.3]

Tom: [00:03:40] Yeah. Henry, great to be with you and your team. And yeah, Made to Flourish. I have the joy of serving a remarkable organization. It’s only four years old. So we’re involved in the expansion of a really important mission around the world, particularly in the United States first. And so, yeah, our mission is really about helping pastors first and foremost. I mean, we work with business leaders and parishioners as well, but helping pastors to more effectively empower them and encourage them and equip them to connect Sunday to Monday better. [00:04:07][27.6]

[00:04:08] So what we really do is we emphasize the importance of the integration of faith, work and economic wisdom for the flourishing of your communities. We’re deeply committed that the Christian faith profoundly speaks into the common good and the flourishing of all humans made in God’s image. So we are a national network. We’re growing and we’re trying to make a big difference in helping pastors and churches more effectively be whole like disciples and really impact the marketplace. And I’m really, really thrilled that I’m a part of this FDI conversation because all who are listening. You matter. Your work matters. I just want to say that the importance of investing well in building capacity, providing dignity and opportunity and jobs for the world, and it is so important what you’re doing. I just want to thank you for the work you’re doing. First and foremost, I’m a big cheerleader. It’s awesome as well. For God’s glory, for the kingdom and for God’s people. [00:05:02][53.6]

Henry: [00:05:03] Amen, brother. Amen. So let’s jump into your latest book. You’ve got a book out called The Economics of Neighborly Love. Rusty has joined us on this podcast because he’s such a big fan of your work generally. And then this book specifically, you talk in the book about a broader definition of the economy and not just in our business, but how and where we do our business. [00:05:29][26.3]

[00:05:30] It’s a big thought and we’d all love to hear you expound on this more for our listeners and now and invite Rusty on to narrow in on some of the different lessons and some of the applications that he took away from the book. But just a broad overview first. [00:05:42][12.7]

Tom: [00:05:43] Could I just briefly give you my autobiography because so much to understand if that’s okay, Henry. You know, I grew up in a faith tradition where I was in church on Sunday, but there was very little connection with my life on Monday. And as a young boy, I grew up in an impoverished economic life. My dad died when I was young. My mom really worked hard as a single parent to help us survive. Some say saying this conversation of economic flourishing and the importance of economics is not an abstraction to me. It’s deeply personal in my own autobiography and I share that in the book. And again, that helps inform, I think, my understanding of the theology and practicality of what it means to connect our faith with our work with the economy, with investment and so forth and how we invest. That has been a part of my story that is so important to me in terms of how I understand the importance of economic flourishing as it relates to human flourishing, as it relates to our faith. [00:06:39][55.2]

[00:06:40] I think when we look at the economy and economics, whether it’s entrepreneurship or particularly investment. We have to understand that economics is woven into the creation account. [00:06:54][13.9]

[00:06:54] So I may be a bit theological, but that’s sort of my bent. Right. I mean, wisdom, we understand. I’m saying in creation, we understand. We were designed to be fruitful. That’s woven into the Genesis record. Right. The cultural mandate is to be fruitful. Multiply, fill the earth and have dominion and fruitfulness in the Hebrew text means productivity and pro creativity. And this theme of fruitfulness is woven all the way through the Bible. So we think about economic life. We find this command to be fruitful. And then we were created with community so it can bring these two together. Right. Right. We’re male and female. Marriage is created that once Eve arrives on the scene in the creation story. We have an economy. We have an economy. We have a household stewardship. So God created us as economic creatures who create blessing from the creator order and share that blessing with others, whether it’s monetized or not. Some say this idea of an economy is woven into creation, it’s woven into the idea of being fruitful and fruitful in all dimensions of life. [00:07:54][60.2]

[00:07:54] So I think what you’re asking me in the beginning is when we think about Jesus and his teaching the economy, Jesus teaches us that we are to be fruitful “by this is my father glorified, that you bear much fruit. And so prove to be my disciples.” What I simply want to say is that all the way through scripture, the follower of Jesus is to be fruitful, fruitful in intimacy, relational intimacy, in productivity and neighborly love. So my book unpacks that, that’s one thing about the economy. Our economic life embraces intimate relationships with others because it’s a relationship and poverty is ultimately a relationship of impoverishment. Productivity and fruitfulness with the work of our hands or investments. And then the neighborly love that makes that possible, something the economy, economic life is a reflection of the great commandments and loving our neighbor and loving God. In one short statement, it changes how it’s not just about a graph, it’s not just about monetization, although that has an implication or supply and demand curves or leftward curves. It is about loving others in the world. Man, it’s a little long, but I’m just saying it is about really loving others, loving God and others. Great commandments stuff. [00:09:02][67.6]

Henry: [00:09:03] What does it look like? You’ve got incredible ministry that’s meant to equip pastors to equip the deployed, as you’ve talked about before, people, they’re already out there. So you haven’t yet written a book to help pastors to equip investors and help them to think through how they encourage their parishioners to think about how to invest in real estate or the public stock market or in private equity, et cetera. But do you have any just general thoughts knowing how important the economy is that we live in, that it’s biblical, you call it in the story. We’re in the garden. Our work was fruitful. We invested from the beginning. We’re meant to multiply. And that obviously has some application for investors. But when you look at the marketplace and the way that you might invest or other people invest is there are some things that are just observations that you have about way the easy Christ is investing. Well, or maybe the inverse of that is when you see Christ-followers, maybe not investing well. What does that look like for you? [00:10:02][59.5]

Tom: [00:10:03] Oh, that’s such a that’s a question that’s so important, Henry. And it needs a lot of reflection. A couple of just the initial thoughts. One is let’s just take biblical wisdom, because we have parables like Matthew 25, where there is an expectation of a financial manager. Right. Managers to make more right to invest. Well. So the expectation of return on investment, whatever is very much woven into faithful discipleship for God’s people. [00:10:28][24.1]

[00:10:28] I mean, Matthew, 25 is just I think most of us know the parable of talents. It’s such a rich teaching on the importance of investing. Well, yes, but not risk-free. So there is a sense of deep risk that is built into the system. And the one investor who is strongly reproved, I mean, is one who wouldn’t take the risk. Right. So I think there is a sense of God has an expectation of multiplication for the good of others, not just for self-indulgence, where multiplication, fruitfulness, thriving, living. So investment to me is forward looking. It’s opportunistic looking at what’s the need, what are the opportunities right now. Also, progress has more of a long horizon. Right. So, so much of it depends on tell us and time horizon. It makes sense. Like what is your purpose in investing? What’s the target? What are you trying to do? In theory of God, of course. Right. If you’re a follower. Well, what’s your tell us what’s your purpose? What’s the big why? I think we all have to answer that as investors or leaders. But then what’s our time horizon? Are we investing for a year, for 10 years, for a generation or multiple generations? So when I started cross-community community 30 years ago with my sweet bride to questions. What is the purpose? What’s the time horizon in our institution is built for a time horizon. Should the Lord tarry, much more than 30 or 50 years from now will be here? William James says the greatest use of a life. William James was a Harvard professor. The greatest use of a life is to invest it in something that outlasts it. I’m just saying, I would suggest and I’ve not written on this, but I’m just giving you my thoughts more than tactics. It’s more clarity of the why and the time horizon that guides that investment decision. Ultimately it’s the glory of God in the furtherance of his kingdom. But what’s the time horizon? What’s the long play? [00:12:23][114.7]

[00:12:24] And so within that I would just say I think proverbs has several themes of wisdom. One is. We need to think about economic life, investing, whatever it is, consumption through the lens of diligence, justice, generosity and ethics of what is right. And we can talk some more about the practicality of it. But I would say tell us some time horizon. And then I would suggest that risk has to be measured. What level of risk? And then the fiduciary responsibility if you’re investing someone else’s resources. [00:12:56][32.3]

[00:12:57] But the importance of investing before God, it’s a given in scripture. The outcome is not certain. Right. But you can have a tell us and time horizon. So I think it’s very important what my underresourced friends in under-resourced communities keep telling me to invest my life, not just my talents, my resources in giving others access and opportunity. So that would be another thing I’d love to engage with. We think about investment. Are we investing not just for a particular return, but to provide other people opportunity and access? Yeah. So I like that. Thanks. I mean, I haven’t written this out, so I’m just… [00:13:36][39.0]

Henry: [00:13:37] No, no, I think is great. I mean, effectively, we’re doing this core collectively crowdsourcing your next book, which is awesome. But I rarely get an opportunity to do this where I get the real time process, something with a pastor and who’s an author. And so this comes to me because the two things you said. One is that you talked about the biblical mandate, the creation mandate, the charge to take dominion. The fact that we were designed by a creator to operate in an economy. Second thing you talked about was the parable of the talents. Matthew twenty five. And their lesson from that and I thought popped to my head as you’re talking about it. So it’s also partially formed. But I’d love to riff with you about it for a second. I’ve always thought it was a great lesson about investing, but I’ve always been thrown off by the part at the end where one of the sevants comes back and says, I was afraid of you because I know you’re hard, man. And his master replied, You wicked lazy servant. Well, then, you should have put my money on deposit. What do I even make of that part? [00:14:37][60.9]

[00:14:38] But the thought I had from it is is the lesson that the servant should have endeavored to understand the intent of his master before he invested. And clearly, God is not the type of hard person that the servant saying. But the lesson there is, you fool, you should have understood what the commander’s intent was. What would have pleased your master? You went off and invested, or in this case, didn’t invest you, regardless of what I would even think about it. And that’s what really makes me mad to you. And I wonder if there’s application for us as Christ followers and that rather than just going to investing with Fidelity and Merrill Lynch are all fine institutions, but just kind of passively investing, kind of going through the motions. What’s it look like for us to really endeavor to understand what is our master’s intent? Our master is not a hard man. He’s a generous person and he wants flourishing. And so are we as investors really endeavoring to understand this is what God would have us do. And it’s that kind of the message is that maybe I’m one of the takeaways from Matthew twenty five. [00:15:41][62.3]

Tom: [00:15:41] No, I think you’re right. I mean, I’m just saying I think one of the things I’m most encouraged with you and Eventide and others who are thinking about this space is as just an individual investor. What are the implications for my investment? Does it own or God does it further the mission in the world? Common good. So I’m just saying, even this kind of movement of thinking investment, not just to prevent bad things, but to nourish good things. So I’m just saying I’m really excited very early in the conversation, FDI and the movement of investing wisely. But I think we’re on a good trajectory. Heart hard as you know more than I do. It’s hard to know what is exactly good and not good and where you draw the line. But I guess that’s right. The incredible opportunity for creativity, for impact is thinking more dynamic on the area, not only of diligence, but of justice and goodness that guide that investment decision. [00:16:32][50.4]

Henry: [00:16:34] And what does the master tell us elsewhere when he reveals himself to us about the things he cares about. And it’s those very things you’re talking about, about justice and access, opportunity for the marginalized. [00:16:44][10.1]

Tom: [00:16:44] Yeah, job creation. Right. To me, one of the great questions of our investing, not only return, but is this creating that energy of job creation, good job creation and dignity and opportunity for people. That’s a part of that investment ripple effect. [00:16:59][15.0]

Rusty: [00:17:00] Tom it’s Rusty and I want to thank William and Henry for inviting me into this FDI podcast. I’m a big fan of your book. I feel a little bit like a fanboy at this point because I’ve marked your book up like crazy and there’s at least a dozen, if not more thoughts that you bring in the book that I really hadn’t thought about. And one of those is you say those who apprentice their lives to him will bear much fruit. And what really struck me there was this word apprentice. I mean, I’ve never heard it put that we can apprentice our lives to him to bear the fruit. So I want you to dive a little bit into that as faith driven investors how we can apprentice our lives to him and you start to talk a little bit more. But I’m really interested in how you’ve apprenticed your life to get you to this place where you’ve written and can speak so eloquently about, you know, the economics of neighborly love and the economics of the kingdom. [00:18:00][59.9]

Tom: [00:18:01] Rusty. It’s a great question and my heart really animates with it. First of all, the word apprenticeship and fruitfulness, the biblical text we use the word disciple or student or pupil as a follower of Jesus and that word not to get into biblical languages. But one of the primary meanings of that and the early understanding of that word in the Greek text is apprenticeship, which again, apprenticeship is a really good word because it captures a holistic life, not just skill, but intimate relationship. And the best metaphor that captures this is Matthew 11:20-30 when Jesus invites us. And he just quoted two because he gives us this metaphor of the yoke, which is an apprenticeship metaphor of two animals being brought together in the first century to cattle or two oxen who learn how to plow others. They’ve learned how to be a part of that farm and what their purpose is in the world. So he takes this idea of learning from him, like being in the yoke, not like this, not an egg yolk. So he says, come to me, all who are wearing heavy laden and I will give you rest. Rest is a picture from Genesis of the Life. God has forced the full. I’ve got his words. But how do we do that? We take his yoke and learn from them. Right. And then he says, you’ll find rest of your soul. [00:19:15][73.8]

[00:19:15] But this idea of learning from Jesus in an intimate apprenticeship captures a sense of submission to him, relationship with him, and learning from him and in and through him. So what I’m saying is this apprenticeship piece ties to fruitfulness. So in John 15- Jesus and all who are my disciples, my apprentice, same Greek word, all who are my true followers are not only my friends. Remember that intimate with me, which is the number one thing of all of life, is relationship intimate with him. But as I’m intimate, I bear much fruit and so proved to be my father’s disciples or my disciples. So fruitfulness here has not only intimacy first, but it has character transformation and productivity and love. Right? This idea of productivity. So apprenticeship with Jesus is not just a vertical, it’s a horizontal that I take with me in my vocational life and many smart people. Dallas’. Well, one of them said that Jesus is the most brilliant person to take with you on the job. Right? Jesus, the most brilliant economists. He’s the most brilliant psychologist. I believe that from the core of my being. [00:20:20][64.8]

[00:20:21] So when I’m saying that connects to our work life now, because to be an apprentice with Jesus is not just something I do on Sunday. So I’m just praying to him and with him, which is important. But it’s all of life. So when I enter my investment zone, when my work zone, my primary teacher is Jesus in that career, that endeavor, that skill, that wisdom, not Jesus doesn’t give us the technical pieces, but he gives us the wisdom and empowerment and spirit, creativity to live into that world. So apprenticeship is the best summary of the word for disciple in the New Testament. And it’s all inclusive. My intimacy, my work, my relationships and marriage all of life. Our apprenticeship is comprehensive and holistic. So it profoundly shapes my Monday life and its shape and life. You ask me about me. I look to Jesus first and his teaching and his presence and his empowerment to do my job today, whatever it is. More than anybody else. I mean, I learn from everybody. But Jesus is my ultimate teacher. Every moment when I’m leading a meeting, when I’m planning, when I’m creative, when I’m making an investment, I mean that that’s the paradigm. It’s profoundly transformational. [00:21:31][70.2]

Rusty: [00:21:32] Right. And was there a catalyst in your ministry, in your life that opened up this window for you around how we can be better faith driven investors? [00:21:43][11.3]

Tom: [00:21:45] Yeah, I think the catalysts, first of all, would be, as I mentioned, that I am an apprentice with Jesus 24/7 in all dimensions of my life, that I look to Jesus for wisdom and guidance. And again, if I have that Rusty fire that then when I think about my understanding of work, economics, all aspects of economics, including from spending but also investing, that I am going to try to listen carefully to his voice, look at what he said. Think as he thinks, love as he loves, and try to make a wise decision about a particular investment or investing in the market. Where is I look to Jesus? I pray in making those decisions. So this is not weird. This is deeply existentially true. So I’m saying when I think about that. Of course, I look at all of the wisdom of scripture as an investor of my time, talent and treasure. So I’m looking at proverbs, but Jesus is the most brilliant investor. I believe that he’s the wisest person who ever walked this earth in all dimensions of life. And he’s invited me. And a great invitation. Matthew Levitt to come to me. Take my yoke and learn for me. And I believe that’s true every day. [00:22:56][70.6]

[00:22:57] So that’s been the transformation. And that does guide my decision. One of the struggles I have was how much do I invest now for later return? How much do I give now? And I’d say that that is the hardest decision for me. Do I give more now? Do I wait and invest? Hopefully with a greater return later. So maybe you guys are wise and your listeners, how do you do that? How do you navigate the goodness of giving now of your capacity, but also taking some of that capacity and hopefully multiplying it for greater generosity later? That to me is a really crucial question. I’m turning it on you now. [00:23:32][35.1]

William: [00:23:34] That’s a good question So, yeah, so you haven’t figured it out. That’s all right. Now, that’s one to pray about. I would love if any of our listeners have thought through that. Please let us know. I Feel like we hear that a lot. You know, there’s great principles around, you know, giving. You can see needs everywhere in the world. But God does tell us to be wise. You know, I feel like that’s both with disposable income but also with retirement income. I mean, all different types of investing are wrapped up in that. [00:24:00][26.0]

[00:24:00] And I feel like you can find biblical wisdom to support some version at least. Of course, there’s bad versions of all those, but some good version of most of those things. So yeah, if any listeners have thought through that, let us know and maybe we’ss bring Tom back on as he continues to think through it and to shift gears a little bit as we’re coming towards a close here. [00:24:19][19.5]

[00:24:20] You know, we usually ask kind of where God has you right now. So if you want to answer that and be great where God has you and his word. But also, as we think about that last question, I’m interested. I’ll change the question in the moment here from the spirit, hopefully. What could be a verse or a story that maybe our listeners could meditate on with regards to how to invest well, with how to think through that paradigm, maybe something that’s not the parable of talents, because I feel like we’ve all thought through, not all of us, but a good number have thought through that and not really found that answer in there, you know, is it in the easy yoke? [00:24:52][31.5]

[00:24:52] I’ve heard pastors say, you know, the yoke is a set of teachings in the ancient rabbinical tradition. So while it is an oxen analogy, it’s also more about come to me, be an apprentice, learn my ways, learn my yoke, my set of teachings, and then your burden will be light. And I’m interested if there’s a piece of that yoke that stands out to you in this moment for our listeners to maybe go to the great imitations. [00:25:15][23.0]

Tom: [00:25:16] Matthew 11:20-30 is a very misunderstood text, so we could spend time talking about that. But I think the invitation is so important. It follows from Genesis 17 and the texts of Torah because God says to Abraham, Here’s the picture of the life God has walked before me and behold, I will make you fruitful. I mean, that’s the big idea for the world. [00:25:37][20.9]

[00:25:38] So what I want to suggest is that the great invitation and Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 17, is this really an invitation first to intimacy with Jesus, with God, then out of that is wholeness, this integral life of rest and wholeness and then fruitfulness. So that tax particular I mean, if I might just want to finish in terms when I’m meditating on Jesus invitation. You think about to be his apprentice to find rest. We can not fulfill the great commandment. And again, investment fits into that loving God and loving our neighbor or the great commission of making disciples if we have not embraced the great invitation. So here’s one I simply want to say is that the great imitation is Matthew Levin, 20 30. It’s often a misunderstood text and lost text. But Jesus gives us the path to loving God and loving our neighbor in all its comprehensiveness and also making disciples of the world. If we do not embrace the great imitation, if we do not enter his yoke, which demands submission, submission to a person first and to his teachings, then we cannot love God and love our neighbor. It’s truly the Great Satan. And so many people talk about loving God to love your neighbor, but without apprenticeship to Jesus without entry is a joke with learning from him becoming like him. We cannot do that. So it’s the great I called the great set up. Just love God, love your neighbor. But if you’re an apprentice with Jesus, we’ve not entered his yoke of apprenticeship. We can not do that. On the other side, the great commission. Think about Mathew’s design. It ends with the great commission, which most of us know make disciples of all the world. Well, the problem is, if we’re not an apprentice or so we are making Fawlty disciples. So it’s the great mission. We call the great set up a great mission. So I do think this affects our investment group. Because when you think about our stewardship on Monday and the different vocational stewards we have of what God has given to us. How do we love God and love our neighbor? Well, with that investment. But the stewardship God has given us and how do we multiply that in apprenticeship and helping others? Right now, I assume that’s a big part of our mission is how do we help other investors? Other followers of Jesus invest? Well, we can’t do that apart from truly inviting them into the yoke of apprenticeship with Jesus. I just think that is being a yoked apprentice of Jesus to learn to live our life like he would if he were me. That’s the basis in all dimensions of life really connect. The great commandment and a great commission and profoundly, I think would speak into our investment challenge in our Monday vocation of investing well for the glory of God. [00:28:09][150.9]

William: [00:28:11] Amen, amen. I love what you said at the end there, too. You know about how, you know you learn how he would live our lives. And that’s not the same for everyone. My favorite little books on calling vocations come out of your life speak by Partner Polymer. And he gives this great phrase. He talks about how, you know, the rabbis of old want to be like Moses, right? That’s the person who they’re trying to model their life after. And this rabbi, Rabbi Zusa is passing away at the end of his life. And he’s lived a good life. And they and his disciples are saying, how do we be like you? [00:28:42][30.8]

[00:28:42] You imitated Moses to the greatest degree. How do we know that it will be like you? And he says this amazing quote that has stuck with me for a long time. He says. When I get to heaven, I don’t think that God’s going to ask me why I wasn’t more like Moses. He’s going to ask me why I wasn’t more like Zusa. I think it’s through that deep apprenticeship that we understand our unique calling and who God’s calling us to be and what our supporting role in his kingdom is. [00:29:07][25.1]

Tom: [00:29:08] Yeah. And the hope is rest for our souls, isn’t it? I mean this word rests on Genesis, but it’s living a life of good truth and beauty that God has called us to live and experience in all dimensions of life, that we experience that kind of life. That’s the hope of it, isn’t it? I just love it. And I will give you rest. Rest is repeated twice in that text. So the rest theme comes right out of Genesis to the life God has force inside of rest. Great, great. [00:29:30][22.7]

[00:29:31] So on this podcast, the feature investor podcast, we’re going to spend lots of time interviewing great folks that are experts in opportunity zones and who are experts in international currency arbitrage. And we’ve even heard from some people recently that think that there’s a great opportunity experts, spiritual integration and cryptocurrency in bitcoin investing. So we’re going to get pragmatic and actually look at actually how you deploy investment dollars. But if we miss as Christ followers and understanding about an invitation to apprenticeship and really to know God and to enjoy him forever, to know God, to love God and love our neighbor and to really endeavor to understand the master’s intent. If we don’t do those things first, then all the other things about how we think about asset allocation and ubit blockers and all the other things that we will absolutely take in this podcast, they will all ring hollow. And so, Tom, I’m grateful for the time you spent with us to help us to further our relationship with God, the father, to know him better, to respond positively to the great invitation, to encourage others to do the same. And I’m grateful for your leadership. [00:30:39][67.8]

Tom: [00:30:40] Thank you, Henry. [00:30:40][0.0]

[1663.6]

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We’re combining the Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor audiences today to continue to address the current events we face. Todd Wagner joined us to speak into how we as believers can respond to the fear and worry surrounding COVID-19. 

Todd is the lead pastor at Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas. If that name sounds familiar to you it’s probably because you’ve heard Henry mention it in the intro to this podcast as the location for where we will be hosting our Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Investor Conferences this fall. In addition to being our host and a speaker at the event, Todd is also a great voice in the faith-driven conversation. 

His words of wisdom—or as his Twitter handle calls them, words from wags—are encouraging, challenging, and uplifting to all who hear them. And with our current events, we could all use encouragement. Like Todd shared, “worry is not our friend and panic is not our way…”

Useful Links:

Should Christians Be Anxious About Coronavirus?

Coronavirus is redefining the words Church and Worship

Real Truth. Real Quick

@wordsfromwags

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry: [00:03:01] Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We have yet another special edition this week as we interview a really key pastor in the life of Faith Driven Entrepreneur. When we think about a short list of folks that have really spoken into the strategy and just the mission in the coin and the vision of Faith Driven Entrepreneur. Todd Wagner is right up there. Right with the folks we’ve had on before. When I think about Chip Ingram and Tim Keller and JD Greer and as many of you know, he is the senior pastor, Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas. He’s a great man of God. Very thoughtful about what it looks like to be a Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Investor. So much so that he and his elder board have graciously offered to host the first ever Faith Driven Entrepreneur in faith to an investor conference that’s happening a watermark this September. So we’re so glad you get a chance to partner with you, Todd, and the team there in advancing the conversation further. And we’re grateful to have your voice of encouragement in these crazy times. So welcome to the program. [00:03:59][58.4]

Todd: [00:04:00] It is a pleasure to be with you. Thank you, Henry, so much. And it’s it’s exciting that we’re gonna get to be together like a bunch of the guys that usually on this podcast. And we are grateful for the opportunity host. We’re glad that we can. And let’s get this corona virus outta here so we can make sure. Get done. [00:04:13][13.7]

Henry: [00:04:14] Amen. I want to start this podcast, though, before we talk about what’s going on this particular season. If you haven’t figured out by now, we’re recording these special editions in the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast at a time when Corona virus is really hitting the country hard. In March of 2020. And yeah, I think you to find that the context of this podcast is timeless. Right. Talking about how do we rely on God and how do we make most of the opportunities of Faith Driven Entrepreneur to know and serve him? One of things we always do on a podcast, of course, is to understand a little bit more about our guest. And so I want to start this podcast, Todd, by talking a little bit about your life pre watermark. And if I’m correct, you’ve not always been a pastor. You started your life as a lawyer. Is that true? [00:04:57][43.2]

Todd: [00:04:59] Well, not exactly, but I never thought I’d be a pastor. In fact, I used to tell folks that if you told me I was going to be one, I’d be taking a swing at you just because I had no idea really honestly what it meant to know Christ and the churches that I was around. Even from a distance as a nonbeliever, there were not churches that I saw doing anything really relevant. I saw men running a lot of very average weekly meetings with a bunch of bored adults. And I certainly whatever I would do with my life was not to lead average weekly meetings with a bunch of bored adults. So it was not too late by the kindness of God came to see the goodness of who he was. And then I got around his word. And then, by God’s grace, a few places where I saw men leading well, that he really captured my heart. Prior to that, I was headed to law school. And so that’s what I really thought I was gonna do. So, you know, just all the things to get my ducks in a row for that to happen. And then when God captured my heart, you know, really late in my teen years, the college years before, I was going to actually step into law school environment. I just found myself actively doing ministry. God just continued to grow my heart’s passions for some other thing. So I don’t think my passion ever decreased for what I would say is the faithful work of the Christian in the workspace, the largest made it clear to me that probably the best use of his life for me was going to be to convene, to equip and encourage the saints in the role that I’m in now. [00:06:27][88.1]

Henry: [00:06:28] But it would be possible for an attorney to be redeemed and become a pastor. [00:06:31][3.2]

Todd: [00:06:32] Well, let me just say this. My friend Kelly Shackelford, which if you are around that church and law space, Kelly argued cases before Supreme Court has a lot to defend religious freedom. Kelly wanted to be a pastor. I was gonna be a lawyer. He end up graduating number one from his class in law schools. And he was actually working as a volunteer at a ministry I was leading at the time. He said to me, I really think I want to be a pastor, so. Kelly, let me just tell you something, buddy. If God’s calling you to be in vocational ministry, I mean, I even don’t even like that term because all of us on this podcast are in vocational ministry. I might be only one that the world calls a pastor. We know, but we’re part of the kingdom of priests. And I have to tell you, Kelly, Kelly, we need godly law clerks. We need godly, you know, he clerked for federal judges. We need godly lawyers. And I had no idea when Kelly was 20 that he was gonna go on to be one of the leading advocates for religious freedom that was out there. [00:07:27][55.4]

[00:07:28] He probably had no idea that I was going to one day have the privilege of starting a church that would turn into what watermark is by God’s kindness has turned into. So, yes, God can redeem lawyers and God can redeem guys who think that life is going to be richer if they go into places where they can get earthly riches. And so my story is definitely a little bit of that. [00:07:46][18.0]

Henry: [00:07:46] The high end. And to be clear, as much as I love a good lawyer joke, it is amazing what folks have gone through three years of law school and see that as a vocation to be alone make really an incredible impact on policy and helping redeem all sorts of different aspects of society. Think about immigration law. I think about justice and some right with you on that. OK, so back to the things that I know a little bit more about. Let’s go into this. What’s going on right now, which is this COVID 19 coronavirus epidemic has continue to spread and it seems like the end of pandemic may even be in sight right now. You’ve written a few articles about it, one for the Gospel Coalition titled Should Christians Be Anxious About Coronavirus? And I’d love to hear about why you decided to write it. [00:08:28][41.7]

Todd: [00:08:28] Well, you know, it’s so funny. I wrote it right there at really the beginning of March. And as we can all look back now, just three weeks ago, it wasn’t that big a deal that very few people were that worked up about it. But I’d begun to hear some whispers. And so, you know, as a pastor. Folks usually let you know what they’re thinking about. And I had heard enough of this that I just decided to sit down and begin to shepherd myself and shepherd others by how we’re to think biblically about that. And so that’s really what the article was about to sit down to just find out a few thoughts that I’ve been a little surprised how much traction this court and how long it’s been a trending article in the Gospel Coalition. But when we look out there in the world today, well, it’s the Coronavirus, just a general sense of economic instability or just the fear of what might tomorrow’s going to look like. We all know that anxiety is well on the rise. In fact, what’s really interesting is I think two thousand eighteen, it was the first time. That for three consecutive years, the death rate or should be the life expectancy in America had gone down. And the reason it went down were all because of issues that are around this topic of worry that we’re going to talk about me because of suicide. Certainly that that was at an all time high and so it reduced the life expectancy. What’s interesting, too, before I finished the other two is the last time that America had a dip in life expectancy was in 1919 during the Spanish flu. Mm hmm. And so we went almost 100 years ago with life expectancy accelerating until the 2015 to 2018 timeframe. And it is because of suicide. It was because of cirrhosis, which we know is due to alcohol consumption and because of a spike in opioid deaths, which people looking to numb their pain and escape from their reality. So this issue is not related to the Corona virus. It’s been around for the last three years in a way that, you know, anybody who cares about people just needs to learn to talk about it now. [00:10:30][121.6]

Rusty: [00:10:31] Hey, Todd, you know, entrepreneurs just by our nature probably live with a certain case of paranoia. Right. I mean, we’re just like paranoid just to start with. Are they really going to turn out the way we thought? Are we going to hit the plan that we have in front of us? Will we get that next round of funding? And will we be able to hang on to that team member or get that team member or land that next deal? And there’s a sense of paranoia that comes with all of that that can turn into worry. And you mentioned worry there a moment ago. Can you dig into that for us and give us from a theological perspective, how should entrepreneurs think about worry? [00:11:11][39.1]

Todd: [00:11:12] All right. A couple of things. You know, it’s so funny when you said that Rusty and you just talk about how entrepreneurs are prone to that sense of paranoia. You know, I’m a bit of an entrepreneur myself, and I’m prone towards real optimism. You know, a general like with a can do spirit. That’s kind of what I think is innate in a lot of us that are creators and designers and developers. But part of being a responsible designer and developer is you’ve got to think through how am I going to finish this and take into account the cost. And so certainly there’s a sense of burden. So here’s a couple of things that I should say that we should think about, whether we consider ourselves an entrepreneur or not. If we consider ourself a person of faith, we just want to be individuals that are marked more by strength than we are fear. Proverbs, 24 10 says he was slack in the day of distress. His strength is limited and may never be said that God’s people don’t have what it takes at any given moment, because we know that our God is never shaken. And the scriptures would encourage us to once we experienced peace with God. Right. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. The scripture then says, if we will continue to keep our mind steadfast on him, will keep us in perfect peace. Or to use Paul’s words in Philippians, we are to be anxious for nothing because in prayer supplication with Thanksgiving, we let a request be made known to him. We keep our eyes focused where they should be, and it says they will not have just peace with God, with the peace of God. [00:12:37][85.8]

[00:12:38] And so let me encourage you with one little story that I actually heard. I’ve got a friend that last night was listening to our Dallas County judge who issued a shelter in place, command that goes into effect today. And he was just sitting there and he was watching this graph that this guy was showing that literally to make his case, said that there was gonna be half a million deaths, half a million deaths in our area if we didn’t do what he was suggesting we do. And he felt the blood pressure inside of him began to rise a little bit. And then he looked out his window and took out his iPhone. And he began to just film the birds that were out there. And the reason he did that is because you’re in that very moment, you know, his eyes and mine is the eyes of his mind. Went back to that little text of scripture in Matthew chapter six, where Jesus is just encouraging folks to not worry. He even talked about the birds of the air and how God takes care of them. And so don’t you know that you’re more valuable than the birds that are out there? He said the birds were not concerned about what the county commissioner was talking about. Right. You know, they were out there singing and they were flying about. [00:13:47][69.1]

[00:13:49] Somebody might say that’s all fine and well and good, but they don’t have 500 employees. They don’t have a bunch of investors that they use all their personal relational capital to get them to invest with them. And so this is my moment. So I’m not a bird. I’m a man and I’m an entrepreneur. So what should I do? Well, if you’re a man of faith. All right. What you should do is exactly what God tells you to do. Right. First, I want to say this to you. No temptation is coming to you as a man who started a business you start to fund. Was employees looking to them. No temptation is coming to you. But such as is common to man. That guy that works for you is wondering if the business is going to work. So you’re not to carry that guy’s burdens. And I’m supposed to carry you’re only supposed to let the Lord carry your burdens. And I just wanna remind you and one of things I said in that article was worry doesn’t really accomplish anything except creating weakness of heart and head. I love the story of Corrie Ten Boom, who, as we know, was one of the righteous among the nations, which is what the Jews called gentiles that did what God wanted them to do in a time of great persecution of the Jews. When you were a gentile and cared for the Jews, you got treated like a Jew, which is exactly what happened to Kaori and her sister. They ended up being locked up. And, you know, she just talks about how she realized and learned right then that worry didn’t empty tomorrow of its sorrow. It just emptied today of its strength. And so as a leader, one of the things I would just tell you is you lead your company is it’s going to hurt your ability to do what you have to do with your employees and your investors are expecting you to do if you use your energy to worry about tomorrow’s troubles. That’s why the scripture says, you know, don’t be anxious for tomorrow. OK, folks. And today he says enough trouble of its own. So your job is to do what you should do today and not to worry about what might happen tomorrow. It takes the same amount of energy to praise. It does the worry. So it would be a man of prayer and prayers. And just like God, please show up and do this for me. Prayer is meditating on what God’s word has said and then to be attentive to that word so that you might do it. And so rather than fret, what you want to do is just say, Lord, you tell me if in trials and we’re certainly in trials and as a leader, you’re going to be in trials, a what it says, if any man lacks wisdom, he should ask of God who gives to all men, and he does it under grudgingly OK, and so God is ready and willing to help you. But she can’t help you when you’re spending your time worrying about what might happen as opposed to seeking what you should do. And so, you know, if God tells us to do anything you said once you worry about how you need to love people. Well, because that’s your job. As my ambassador, as my appointed servant leader that you have as a member of that company. So what I would say is your prayers should be Lord. Scripture tells me to trust in the Lord and do good to dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness. So what this faithfulness look like for me today. And that’s where you want invest your time, not with worry. [00:16:51][183.0]

Rusty: [00:16:53] That’s good. That’s such a good word, Todd. And something that I think that’s not only relevant today, but for Faith driven entrepreneurs. Right. Is everywhere and should be at all times. And, you know, I think in moments like this, a lot of us try to look back at history and try to learn and bring forward. And there’s been such great words. And I know my e-mail box has been filled with C.S. Lewis and the atomic age. And his you know, his statements about that. And more recently, you know, I’m starting to see things and I know you’ve written about this and talked about it. You know what Martin Luther actually went through during the plague. And it’d be awesome to hear you talk a little bit about that, because that seems really relevant even today from a long, long time ago. So, yeah. Talk to us a little bit about, you know, what Martin Luther was going through and what we can learn from that. [00:17:40][47.7]

Todd: [00:17:41] All right. Well, this is great because you know Martin Luther lives in the 16th century, so the fifteen hundreds. And we know that the bubonic plague was something that was wreaking havoc in Europe for centuries, in fact, in the 14th century. So it’s been 13 hundreds. I think they estimate 60 percent of the population of Europe died. OK, that’s not 25 percent unemployment that we’re talking about right now on our economic forecasts. That’s 60 percent of the population of Europe died. The bubonic plague is a whole lot worse than the Corona virus. The plague would create not just high fevers, but large what they called weeping boils that would be on you. And even worse, because of some of the lack of medical development, the time there were doctors that would be propagating information that would say that you’re going to instantly die if the spirit of sickness that’s in somebody who has the bubonic plague even looks at a healthy person standing there. And so the conventional wisdom was, stay clear to sick, get out. Right. In other words, care for yourself and do what you can to survive in that particular moment. And so in the midst of that environment, we got him. John Huss wrote to Luther. He was another reformer in Germany. And in the 16th century, Luther actually had been commanded, if you will, by his government leaders to get out because he was a bit of a price leader. And they said, we want you to get out. His wife was pregnant at the time. So I want you to imagine this. And this is where Luther responded with this amazing little statement about what we should do. And I think there’s relevance for here for guys that are leading businesses, because when you are a leader of an organization. All right. You are responsible not just for the well-being of your family, but you are responsible for the well-being of others. And so when you think about what God wants you to do in that moment, you can’t just think of yourself. You can’t think about your reputation. Only you can’t think about your financial security. Only you can think about how you’re going to come out of this and maybe get people to invest in your next deal, because believers. And again, this is a faith driven investor podcast. Right. We’re believers. So we do nothing. We do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit. But with humility of mind, we consider others as more important than herself. We don’t really look out for our own personal interests. We also look out for the interests of others. I read a Harvard Business Review article that we might even get to hear a little bit later in our conversation. That was just helping business owners rethink how they might act in this. But let me just finish what Luther said. He just said this. This is an answer to the question that just asked him. And the answer the question is whether one might flee from a deadly plague. This really great application, not just for pastors, for what believers do in troublesome economic times or in a time of turmoil. He said this. He said, very well, then, by God’s decree. The enemy is sent a pestilence. So let me tell my faith driven investors this sometimes that pestilence is a contract that didn’t actualize. [00:20:44][183.4]

[00:20:45] Sometimes it’s an employee that was unfaithful. Sometimes it was a guy that led you on that he was going to execute on our business plan that you had that he’s not. That can be a pestilence. All right. And so what Luther said is, I shall ask first of all, then God for mercifully to protect us. Right. So if it’s a situation where you caused the plague or the pestilence, then the first thing you need to do is own it. But a situation where you feel like you’re a victim of it, like let’s say we all are with the Corona virus or in this case, Luther was with the plague. You should just say, God be merciful to me. This is not a surprise to you. Right. And so my job is to be faithful in it. You would not have brought this to me if you did not want me to faithfully represent you in it. That doesn’t mean I’m going to get to always have it spin around and turn around. Just be this great Silicon Valley success story or this great Wall Street success story. It means I’m going to be faithful and faithfulness is success. So Luther says I shall administer medicine and take it. In other words, do the things you need to do to care for yourself. Make sure you’re practicing sound fiscal policies. Make sure you’re walking with integrity. The medicine of a businessman doesn’t change in times of crisis. And if you’re going to be in a world filled with some pestilence, the first thing to make sure you’re doing is locking down your own actions and being excellent in them. He said I still avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order to not become contaminated and thus perchance infect and pollute others. If people in a city were to show themselves bolded faith, he says, when a neighbor’s needs so demands and cautious when no emergency exists, and if everyone would help ward off contagion as best he can, then he says in this instance the death toll would indeed be moderate. But and this is the key. If we are too panicky and desert our neighbors in their plight, then the devil will have a heyday and many will die. And so what Luther was saying is we have a responsibility not just to care for ourselves, but to not deserve our neighbors and their plight. And when I would just tell you, as a business leader, we do have a responsibility to our investors and to our employees and to those that place their trust in us. But your responsibility is not to be the messiah. You’re not God. You need to go to bed when it’s time to go to bed. And then you need to wake up and be diligent and have the mindset of Psalm 127. Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain to build it. OK, so that means that we have to build a house. Doesn’t say pray God to build a house. All right. It says, unless the Lord is involved in this, it’s not going to work out anyway. OK. And so my job is to do what I’m supposed to do to frame this thing that was solid foundation to follow the blueprint. And then every good thing in my life is because of the grace of God and all that. Anybody who invests in me or who looks to me for leadership should want to see is that I’m doing everything that a man entrusted with the privilege of my position should do. And that’s your job is not to be a savior and not to save anything, but to work humbly, to work diligently, to work well in teams and to work in a way that isn’t just to further your best interests, but to honor God in all things. [00:23:53][188.0]

William: [00:23:54] Amen. William here. Thank you so much for walking through that. And as we think about this, I’m captivated by this specific virus where so far the number one thing they’re telling people is to stay home. Right. And to stay away from people. And so I think you did a great job walking us through the idea of listen and take care of yourself and do what people are saying. [00:24:14][20.6]

[00:24:15] But as churches are being canceled, as in-person gatherings are being taken away, and as that is the best way that we’re kind of hearing that we can love people, it seems like an odd dynamic where typically you would run and run to people you would want to be there, especially in the hospitals. I think about I’ve heard some terrible podcasts, right. I mean, a lot of these people are passing away with their loved ones, not their right, because they can’t be there. It’s just a very tough situation. And my wife and I were struggling with, you know, what does loving people well, look like right now. And as you have all have looked at that from watermarks perspective and your congregation’s perspective, what is the loving others look like while avoiding contact with them in this season? [00:24:57][42.6]

Todd: [00:24:59] So, yeah, we’re having to innovate, right? We all know that necessity is the mother of invention. And so we are having to innovate right now because listen, part of being a good citizen is asking how my actions are going to potentially affect others. We’re seeing a lot of the blogs that are out there right now. Is that the younger generation who is always fearless in the face of any kind of warning from any kind of authority they like is not that big a deal. A big I guess it’s just kind of a bad flu in my age group. Is that particularly at risk? Well, that might be well and good, but your age group interacts with other age groups and other age groups are a little bit more susceptible to probably some of the more adverse effects of the flu or specifically of the Corona virus. And so you have to be wise. And so again, Luther said this I would avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed or to keep myself being contaminated. Because I don’t want you to take a chance and in fact, and pollute others. I don’t know. Like Henry talked about how much we want to make this really about the Corona virus. But you know, the issue with this, the big flattening the curve ideology that’s out there is because of the fact that our nation is better supplied with hospital beds and ventilators than any nation on earth in terms of number. But we also have 300 roughly million people and we got a million hospital beds. So the entire at risk population is exposed to this virus, which they’re more likely to be exposed to it the more that they interact with carriers. And we don’t know who the carriers are. That’s what’s so sinister about this thing that our cavalier ness could put others at risk. So we don’t believe that we’re being good neighbors. If we just act like it doesn’t matter if I get it and it doesn’t matter if I give it to somebody else because I might give it to somebody else who puts people at risk, it won’t really get the care that they need at a particular time. [00:26:49][110.6]

[00:26:50] So I think we have to be wise. We have to again do nothing from selfishness or conceit. But at the same time, we don’t want to live in fear. I mean, a frightened world needs a fearless church. But let’s not use our fearlessness as an excuse to be reckless. OK. And so the Bible rewards obedience and faithfulness, not risk taking. And as a businessman, sometimes you take calculated risks. You step out what you would say in business faith. Would you look at the analytics and you look at the opportunities before you and you do your cost basis analysis as best you can and then you go? I think it’s worth I think I see a market opportunity is not guaranteed, but part of you using your intellect and your skills, you take some steps that are a bit of a risk, OK, and always have different risk profiles. Let me just say this to you. My point here is that in the midst of this, we don’t want to do anything just so that God has to show up. We want to walk with a God who’s already present in a way that other people look us to go. That was wise. That was insightful. That was selfless and not motivated by greed. [00:27:56][66.6]

Henry: [00:27:57] That’s a fascinating topic about the juxtaposition of obedience next to risk. And what I’m hearing and picking up from you is that there’s a lot of nuance around rescue, not saying don’t look at opportunities and seize them and don’t knock off into battle when there’s clearly a battle that to be fought. But wanton risk is not something that the Bible talks a lot about. And I think that’s interesting for our audience to hear because so oftentimes we think that entrepreneur equals risk. If you stay in your salaried position, that’s not risky. But if I’m an entrepreneur, I’m stepping out and I’m going to go ahead. I’m a lean forward into risk. And I think that’s really interesting. And I think that it’s a great opportunity for entrepreneurs that are listening this to pray through. [00:28:39][42.0]

[00:28:39] What does that mean? Am I ever taking risk at the expense of being obedient on this podcast? I think we’ve talked in past about the good kings of Judah who went off and then took some risks and didn’t seek God and things went poorly for them and they were the good kings of Judah. Bad trade deal went off in a war when they weren’t supposed to. So what does it look like for us as entrepreneurs to be obedient during this time but all times? And are we ever erring on the side of taking risk? Because that’s what we think we supposed to do and entrepreneurs and leaving obedience by the wayside. I’d love that. [00:29:13][33.3]

Todd: [00:29:13] And one of the things I’ll just add, especially as Christians, words really, really matter. The Bible tells us all that God’s opposed to the property gives grace to the humble. It says, Your younger members submit to your elders and all of you clothe yourself in humility with one another. [00:29:27][14.3]

[00:29:28] And so as a leader, I would really encourage you to be very careful when you say things like, well, I really believe God wants me to do this. Sometimes I hear guys say this and I’m like, well, look, if you believe that God wants you to do this, then it’s not risky to do it. It’s risky to not do it. OK, because again, I want to just oppose, as you just said, risk from obedience and faithfulness is obedience. And so we have to ask ourself this. Did God tell me to do it? If God asked me to do it? And I’m his, then. I should even ask people to pray about it with me. But I think most of the time when we mean when we say that, you know, is a habit to kind of throw this out there, and maybe if it doesn’t work, then, you know, it’s not my fault because I was just trying to be faithful with God called me to do well. God is not a man. He’s a liar, son of man. He should repent, the scripture says. And so God’s not going to make mistakes. And so if God tells you to build a boat in the middle of a desert where there’s never been a rain inside the earth’s environment, that’s not risky. But you better know that God’s called you to do something. It’s also OK, though, to say, hey, guys, I as best I can as a man who’s studied and worked and gotten more proficient in analysis and leadership assessment, I believe there’s an opportunity here. And I really this is what businessmen do. They ask others. To have faith in them that they assess the situation correctly. And look, we’re not always gonna get it right. And the one thing that we can’t say to people when we’re talking in the business environment here. If you obey God’s word, you’re always going to get it right. But as it pertains to a business decision, one of the things that people will do is they want to follow individuals that will invite them into the process and not act like they’ve got all the answers they can share, why they believe this is the right thing to do, the analysis and the work. OK. They’re not just some slick salesmen. There’s not just a deck out there that tobi’s gonna be impressed with, but that you can come and lay before them your thoughtful work and then not intimidate them or even feel rejected if their risk assessment is different than yours, and that environments would love them by bringing them an opportunity. And if that thing is supposed to work out, it will. And if not, you did your best to try and create the opportunity and the pitch. Investors, I think and you were telling me that you get solicited a lot. Right. You say no to 9 out of 100 folks. And that’s not because those ninety nine did know God’s will. It’s because for that thing to happen this particular moment, you’re not gonna be a part of God’s provision. And men should walk away from you, not with bitterness or with a sense of disgust or some sense that you don’t trust me, but a sense of a Henry. Thank you that you gave me thoughtful consideration and loved me enough to believe I was even worthy of the conversation. And would you just pray that I see if this is not something I should do, or that God would give me the strength and perseverance to continue and then Godspeed. On we go. And we’re brothers. So I really mean, this is an interesting and fascinating conversation because God doesn’t guarantee us anything but that he’ll be with us and that each and every day we should consume ourselves with a desire to be faithful. And faithfulness is not to make success for ourselves. Success and prosperity scripturally is that this book of the law would not depart from my mouth. So I’d be careful to do according to all that is written in it. So faith based investor, invest deeply in your faith and just don’t slap it or God that the outcome has to be what you thought the outcome would be. Go to bed knowing that you were faithful and that you weren’t pursuing idols or trying to force God into your wonderful plan for your life. Follow him. [00:33:16][227.8]

Henry: [00:33:17] Yeah. That’s a theme we talk about a lot and it’s great to hear you look at it from a different angle here in terms of obedience. And we talk a lot about the difference between being willful or faithful or as kipping. I’m talking about whether we’re striving or contending, striving, being on your own power by contending, being with God’s power and in God’s power. I think there’s a lot about obedience in here as well. [00:33:39][22.0]

Rusty: [00:33:40] Todd, I love that whole idea. And what Henry was saying, too, about risk and obedience. Can you just dive in further on obedience for us? Because it’s such a hard thing so many times for us to figure out, are we really being obedient? And I think it’d be really helpful for all of us and me personally during this time. [00:33:58][18.3]

Todd: [00:34:00] Well, one of the things that we, you know, want to be as just individuals that are aligned with our sovereign king and you know, we are I tell you guys all the time to BYO that I want to go down for me as a servant of Christ and a steward of the mysteries of God. And that would be true if I continue to my legal career or if I go into business one day. I just want to say to my friends that are listening right here and just reminds you, we are a part of the royal priesthood together. We are a holy nation together. We are people of God’s own possession together. This clergy laity distinction is as unfounded biblically as the secular spiritual divide that some people have with the way they act on a Sunday or what they think about on a Sunday. And then Monday through Friday. You know, when they deal with Wall Street and investors, they go away. This is business. OK. Well, our business is always to be servants of Christ and to be steward of the mysteries of God. And so you want to just make sure that you’re not walking in the way the way you’re standing in the path, the center sitting with the scoffers. But your delight is in the law of the Lord. And on that law, you’re meditating day and night. So all of your principles need to be governed by who you say you are. Not on Sunday. But when you made a decision that Jesus was your king. All right. This should affect you in every aspect of your life. So worship. We don’t call our large gathering at watermarked the worship center. All right. If this was a video podcast, I would be pointing to my chest right now and say, this is the worship center. Right. My life is to use the words of Paul and Corinthians is the temple of God. All of us are worshipers. Jesus and John Ford just said, hey, there’s going to be a day when you can worship me on this hill or that hill, but you going to worship me in spirit and truth. You don’t need to have a central temple idea of worship or the sacrifices made because your life now I’m quoting Romans Twelve. Your life is a living and holy sacrifice which is responding to the sacrifice of Christ. That was once and for all made. So the temple sacrifices are necessary. And so that is our charge and our call. And so I and every large corporate gathered at watermarked with this little phrase that now it’s become hagwon. I saw a bunch of high school kids wear t shirts and then text messages with hashtag hagwow. And I go, what is hagwow? They laugh and go Todd, it’s what you say every single week when we get ready to leave. It stands for have a great week of worship, right? HAGWOW. And you know, that idea is when we leave our corporate time of remembering the goodness of God and reminding each other to respond to him. That’s when worship really starts. Well, we just got through was corporate celebration, corporate encouragement and equipping. But now we’re going to goby worshipers. And so what we’re going to do at work is worship. Work is worship. We say it all the time, right. In these environments that the work of the church is the church at work. So my job is to, if anything, as a pastor to encourage you and reminds you that God made you a businessman for a reason and be the best kind of businessman that is consumed with honoring Christ and everything. You know, I don’t wanna quote more Luther, but he’s got an amazing quote about a cobbler and the way the kind of shoes that he makes. I heard. I think there’s bread and manning. That said, you can be sure that there were no cricket chairs coming out of the carpenter shop in Nazareth. Right. And so there should be nothing crooked about the way you are leading your company or the way you’re making decisions. [00:37:41][221.0]

Rusty: [00:37:42] That’s really great. So we can now say it again. HAGWOW. Have a great week of worship. Great. So we used to have BHAG’s and now we’ve got HAGWOW I love it every day. [00:37:53][10.8]

Todd: [00:37:53] Hey, I like you better make sure you BHAG’s run through the HAGWOW grid. Right. Go ahead. I think it’s goal to honor Christ in all things as a worshiper. [00:38:03][9.3]

William: [00:38:04] Hey, before we get on, you were mentioning an article that you read in the Harvard Business Review recently that had some great truth in it about our current time and also about how we can do business as well. [00:38:15][11.2]

Todd: [00:38:15] Yeah, I’ll tell you why this is worth maybe pointing to. And so, you know, I’ll just share this with you. I don’t get to spend a lot of time with the hard news review, but I do have a friend that said, Hey, Todd, you would like this article. So, you know, I source articles lots of different ways. Sometimes I’m reading on my own time times a guy pay me. This is one that my buddy Jeff Ward, who is such a faithful friend here, who was a lawyer and is now on our staff team, he’s the one that turned me on to this. But the title of it, it was just written, gosh, three days ago. It’s called the Corona Virus. Christus doesn’t have to lead to layoffs. Now, here’s why I’m pointing you guys to this. [00:38:45][29.5]

[00:38:45] Whenever you read an article in the Harvard Business Review or any book by anybody, you want to read it in the same way that Paul and Luke said that the Bryans listen to him preach. Right, because you are being influenced by what you meditate on. And we should bet, Ted on the word of God. But we should absolutely be unafraid to be in conversation with people who bring across different ideas. I just wanna always test those ideas up against the word of God. So the Breen’s and Act 1711 says they were more noble minded than those who were deslonde icons because they listened to what Paul was saying and they tested it or they took it to the scriptures to see if those things were so. So when you read a Harvard Business Review article, what you want to do is just go, huh? Some of these suggestions that are in here, not only do they seem to maybe make sense, they’re also aligned with what we just got through, talking about what it means for me to be a servant of Christ, what it means for me to be a worshiper in the way that I lead in this particular moment. And so these guys did a decent job of just saying a couple of headlines in this thing. We’re like, hey, communicate openly. In other words, too many leaders assume that if we show any weakness and we tell our employees or our investors that we’re not really sure which is going to turn out, they’ll see us as a weak leader and they’re gonna want to abandon us or look for a different company when in fact, the very opposite is true. They love the openness. I mean, the scriptures say that. So here’s where I would say that idea is biblical, where it says that the goal of our instruction is love. A pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. I’m not managing information. To you, I’m going to be open about what I’m wrestling with and what I see potentially coming and what I’m doing to mitigate against a myriad of circumstances. The job of a leader is to anticipate what is coming right and is to define reality. And so one of the ways that you can help your employees is to just say, hey, listen, I’ve seen four or five potential tomorrows, not worried about them, but faithfulness in my role would be to consider how each of these could impact us. And certainly we all see certain things. Here’s some of my thinking about it. Here’s some of my concern and some vulnerabilities that I think we have in light of these things. And then the article goes on to say, one of the things that you might want to do is in the midst of being open and sharing, the plan is considering to crowdsource different ideas, which biblically is exactly what God’s word will tell us to do. I mean, he who isolates himself, the Bible says, seeks his own desire. He calls against all sound wisdom. And so there are ways to just ask others. Right. You want to wage war with wise consultation. The scripture says that the fool is more wise in his own eyes and seven men who give a discreet answer. So listen to other people and just say, hey, help me think through this. Here’s my plan. I’m not just numbed in activity, but I’m also not going to confuse motion with progress. So what do you think of these plans and what are some ideas that you have? So anyway, there’s just a number of different things that I saw these guys in this article talk about that I go, that is good advice because it lines up with what I see in the good book. So you should read every Harvard Business Review article, every Jim Collins book, and you should listen every Todd Wagner message at Watermarked Dawg the same way and just say, is it true? Is it founded in scripture? I love the way the article ends because it mentions and I can’t speak Swedish, but it ends with just that a leader should have ice in his belly and they use a phrase from a proverb in the Nordic countries that just talked about how a leader doesn’t get upset because his stomach is in effect strengthened and cooled by ice in his belly. [00:42:30][224.6]

[00:42:31] I would tell you that the scripture says the same thing, right? But that he was slack in the day of distress. The strength is limited. And as I said a while ago on the podcast. Far be it from us as God’s people that we should read more marked by fear, insecurity, anxiety and despair than by faithfulness and hope in our tomorrow. Even if that doesn’t turn out the way that we wanted to. From an investment standpoint or a future wildly successful career for me, if I’ve done what I should do with integrity, it’s successful. [00:43:07][35.9]

William: [00:43:09] Amen. Well, unfortunately, we have to bring the podcast to a close here. I would love to spend more time going through some of these topics and hopefully move some time on another podcast. But as we do come to a close, we always like to bring our Faith Driven Entrepreneur and our faith driven investor audiences into what God is doing right now in your life and in the life of our guests. It’s amazing how God’s word shapes itself through our listeners and through our guest. And so if you wouldn’t mind telling us maybe where God has you in his word. It could be in the season leading up to it. It could be this morning, something he may have placed in your heart and what he’s teaching you through the good book. [00:43:45][35.3]

Todd: [00:43:45] Well, my mind competed right then for five different places in the scripture. I was hanging out a little bit earlier today, but I think I want to go to this one. It’s at the very end of Deuteronomy right now. Kind of by reading through the Bible. I’ve been in Deuteronomy much. And so at the very end of Chapter 4, this is what it says. And I use this one because I think it’s just a good reminder for us all to have in season and out of season. That’s what the scripture means in Timothy when Paul says it. Timothy. We’re not just Christians when it’s convenient and we don’t just give God glory and honor when everything is up and to the right. Right in season and out of season. I want to be a man of the book. All right. So, by the way, in Deuteronomy Chapter 8, God says, hey, listen, I’m the one who gives you the power to make well. He’s also the one that gives you the ability. Now, I’m quoting from Philippians for. To do well in seasons where it’s not turning out the way that you had planned or had hoped. What I want you to know in the midst of every season and whether you’re in the midst of plenty or want, whether you are well-fed or hungry. Paul has learned the secret of contentment. And that secret was learned by Moses and Moses, who trying to remind the people of Israel to it. So this is what Moses says in Deuteronomy Chapter 4, and I’ll paraphrase the first part of this section of the end. And then our region specific parts. But basically in verse 32, he starts by just saying, just go back and remember who I am. So for the Christian, go back and remember what Christ has done for you in Romans 8 says you did not spare his own son, but deliver him up for sale, will you? Not also with him freely. Give us all things. So man was wonderful that he split the sea for the Israelites as they came out of Egypt. It’s wonderful that, you know, he covered the mountain fire. But what he’s done for you is even more wonderful. So remember the things that God has done for you. He says in verse 33, has anyone ever heard the voice of God speaking in the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and survived? Guys, we have the Bible in our hands and we can open it up to read every single day. And then a verse 34. He goes on just the list and the different things that he has done. But this is what I want you to hear. OK. He says, listen. Verse 40. So you shall keep the statutes and his commandments, which I’m giving you today, so that it may go well with you and with your children after you and that you may live long the land which the Lord your God is giving you for all time. This is what I would love our business leaders in this day and age to know there is something called gospel blessing. It’s what Paul is talking about in Philippians 4. And it’s very different than the perverted prosperity gospel. The Prosperity Gospel says that going well with you means you’re never going to get sick, which is crazy that your business deals always going to work out. You’re gonna be healthier, wealthier, wiser than you’ve ever been. Well, the wiser part will be true, but the wealthier part, I don’t know. Some faithful men. The Bible says we’re sworn in, too, and we’re fed to the lions. And sometimes God shut them out of lions. And sometimes you delivered people from certain death. I don’t know what your tomorrow is going to be. I just know that God is going to let you have his peace and whatever tomorrow brings. If you walk with him. And so that phrase in Deuteronomy, chapter four, verse 40 that it may go well with you is not to be distorted, to mean that your business is going to work. It means that the way you work in your business is going to end with you hearing the words. Well done, good and faithful servant. Sometimes God might love you just enough to let you be tested with a trial. He did that with Joe. And if anything, there’s not a health, wealth and prosperity trajectory for godly men. There is. I’m going to put you in situations that no men can continue to sink raises for me. Just to show that you love me and not things. That was certainly what he did with Job. [00:47:39][234.0]

William: [00:47:44] Amen, thank you so much for the good work. Todd, thank you for sharing your time with us. I know it’s a crazy time and I know you have a congregation that you’re chaperoning and for you to pay off in time to shepherd our congregation as well as just a true blessing. [00:47:58][13.5]

Todd: [00:47:58] Well, hey, guys, it’s a privilege. I really am grateful for you men as business leaders, the way that you are putting your faith to work. And through this podcast, through your ministry, through your gathering of guys and the fact that we’re doing to do it in person, September is going to be really, really exciting. So I’m humbled that you thought this was a good use of your time. And let’s just pray the Lord uses it to encourage people. [00:47:58][0.0]

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We’re living in unprecedented times. Coronavirus continues to spread, and the fear and anxiety attached to it are moving even faster. It’s no secret the effects this pandemic is having on the economy and investing market. So, what do we do?

That’s the question we posed to James Cham, a venture capital investor with Bloomberg Beta. He provided a unique and positive spin on everything happening worldwide, and we’re excited to share his encouraging words amidst these challenging days.

If this episode encourages you, we hope you share it with others who may need an uplifting word. As always, thanks for listening!

Useful Links:

An Interview with James Cham

@jamescham

James Cham LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: [00:01:47] Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. It’s really good to be with you all. This is a special edition recording that we’re doing with a good friend of all of ours. James Cham. It’s infrequent that we have a guest on the program that Rusty knows well. William knows well, I know well. And so it’s a great joy to have James Cham of Bloomberg beta with us on the Faith Driven Investor podcast during a crazy time and what’s going on in finance and investing in the economy. James, thank you very much for making time to be with us this morning. [00:02:15][28.3]

James Cham: [00:02:15] Of course. Of course. I’m glad to be with you guys. I always look for excuses to hang out with all three of you. [00:02:20][5.0]

Henry Kaestner: [00:02:21] You know so many people that there’s a good chance that every listener in his podcast knows you, but on the off chance that somebody doesn’t tell us. Who are you? Where do you come from, what you do? [00:02:32][10.4]

James Cham: [00:02:33] Yeah, I’m a seed-stage investor with a v.c firm called Bloomberg Beta, where we invest in the future of work. [00:02:39][6.0]

[00:02:39] But more importantly, I’m a person who started as a software developer and then became a v.c a few years ago and struggled a lot about what that actually meant and why it might be important. And as a Christian, I think I’ve spent a bunch of time trying to figure out what is the actual role of an investor in God’s kingdom. [00:03:00][21.2]

Henry Kaestner: [00:03:01] Mm hmm. So that notes to some extent, of course, that that faith is a part of your life. Have you always been a believer? [00:03:07][6.3]

James Cham: [00:03:09] You know, I grew up in a Chinese church in the San Gabriel Valley of California. [00:03:13][4.8]

[00:03:15] And it was a vital part of both how I thought about myself and how I thought about the world. And, you know, I was lucky enough to get involved with Intervarsity in college. And it’s meant a lot to me. And so it’s been a vital part of my life for a long time. [00:03:29][14.6]

Henry Kaestner: [00:03:30] As you were a software engineer and then now as an investor, how do you see this faith that you’ve had? There’s been a big part of your life. How do you see that come to bear? Is it something that Sunday’s you go to church and it’s been a part of your intervarsity background and all that, and then Monday you’re just kind of coming in and just bringing home the bacon? How have you seen faith work into your life vocationally? [00:03:50][20.2]

James Cham: [00:03:53] You know, it’s interesting because when I got right out of college, I worked as a software developer. But more critically, I ended up living in a house with a bunch of other Christians, many of whom were involved in our local college fellowship. [00:04:06][13.3]

[00:04:07] And that meant for me the way that I thought about my work. [00:04:10][3.1]

[00:04:10] Getting my life wasn’t quite as sort of clearly separated that those things all melded together. [00:04:16][5.6]

[00:04:17] And I think that’s been quite helpful for me, even though I worked in sort of totally secular workplaces. That’s meant that that’s always been part of the discussion and part of the way that I thought about things. [00:04:27][10.4]

Rusty Rueff: [00:04:28] Hey, James, it’s awesome to have you here. You know, we probably should mark this moment in time because our listeners of the Faith Driven Investor podcast could be listening to this years from now and not know why the audio quality is a little off and what’s going on. Well, this is a moment. [00:04:44][15.6]

[00:04:44] It is March the twenty sixth of twenty twenty. And most of us on the line here are in shelter in place as we go through the COVID-19 pandemic. And you know, we wanted to have you on James, not only because of your background and what you do as an investor and a faith driven investor and how your faith informs that, but also to give your insight about what you see going on around us, particularly in the investing world. And like, how should an investor be thinking in this time both strategically and actually tactically, right. Because we’re struggling a little bit here and we want to get your words of wisdom. [00:05:24][39.7]

James Cham: [00:05:25] Yeah. You know, sort of these are the times. So I’m glad I’m not a public market investor. Like I have no idea. [00:05:29][4.3]

[00:05:30] So they’re how they should be thinking about the market or how they think about the world. But I think for an early stage investor and critically for early stage founders, this is such an important and unique moment. There are ways in which for many people they have felt like they’ve been made for moments like this. I think for normal people like me, you know, there were kind of freaking out and we’re trying to figure out what to do day to day. But I think that there are sets of people right now for whom their entire life has been made for a moment like this, when the rules have been broken and thrown up and suddenly they get to try to create something different or redefine things. And I think there’s an openness right now that’s just going to be unique. And the people who are able to understand that and, you know, not to be too theological about it, but the people who’ve been created by God for this moment of whom. It’s not everyone, but they’re just a few. They will be able to do things they would have never been able to do before. It is now the time for like this 17 year old who’s has no right to command the stage or the 60 year old who’s been sort of thinking deeply for a long time. [00:06:39][69.0]

[00:06:39] It’s like their chance now to really sort of take advantage of this moment. And I think it is so hard to sort of imagine that and think about it, but it’s just right there. And I think that’s really exciting, even amidst the terror and all the ways that this is going to be really bad and really hard to give us some more specifics on that. [00:06:58][18.7]

Henry Kaestner: [00:06:59] As you look at your portfolio as a private investor and you’d look at different sectors and you think about what the economy might look like and whether it’ll be the same or different coming out of this, where are some of your observations? [00:07:10][11.6]

James Cham: [00:07:11] So I think that it is easy depending on how you feel to go swing wildly between “We’re going to be in a sort of depression for 10 years or we’re to have a time of unprecedented growth.” [00:07:22][11.1]

[00:07:23] And I think it’s just very hard to know. But what that really means is that the cone of possibility, you know, sort of the range of what’s possible right now is so wide. And so that is both terrifying and exciting. And I think that that means that for the portfolio companies I talked to, they’ve got a plan in both places. Right. There’s a way in which even as companies are going through and figuring out what lay offs are going to look like or how they’re going to extend a runway at the same time that that’s happening. There’s also this chance where they have to dream and say to themselves, you know what, actually my relationship with my customer or my relationship, my partner, could be fundamentally different because I might be in a position to serve them differently or better. My partners might be open to new opportunities. And I think that way of thinking is so hard to do. But for the best entrepreneurs that I’ve dealt with or I talked to, they aren’t thinking that way right now, that they are living in all three places at once. They are thinking right now about, you know, gosh, I’m going to have to renegotiate the lease and I’m going to have to lay off these 10 people. At the same time, they’re saying, you know what, actually, this means that I could actually sort of offer this service to a customer who in the past would never been open to it. And at the same time, they’re saying, you know what, I should now be reaching out to, you know, those 10 people who I’ve talked to three years ago who made some difference in my life and just sent them to quit Texas quick. No. And I think that, Mark, it’s so rare and it’s so hard. But when you see that, it’s an incredible blessing. And it’s incredibly encouraging to me. [00:08:57][94.3]

Henry Kaestner: [00:08:58] As some of your portfolio companies are coming back to you and talking to you about liquidity and obviously some of the reactions you’ll have to that are that in some cases they need to lay some people off. How are you thinking about capital structures right now? How are you thinking about companies and their ability to access debt or more equity? Are you finding that this is a time to think creatively about shoring up the balance sheet where some options? What are some of the discussions you’re having right now with some of your portfolio CEOs? [00:09:26][27.8]

James Cham: [00:09:28] What’s fascinating is that the answer yesterday is gonna be totally different. The answer tomorrow that the capital markets are so fluid. Right. And, you know, we’re at a point right now where there is a massive stimulus that I think may have just been passed and the implications of that. We’ve got a number of folks who are trying to figure that out. I mean, remember companies and what that looks like could fundamentally make a company. Right. And I think that’s what’s weird about this moment, is that there are so many things that are possible. We were joking earlier about the fact that we were having trouble with our videoconferencing system and it exposed the fact that although we call it a cloud, it really is a bunch of servers, right? It’s a bunch of. People servers are going to be overloaded right now because everyone’s using it and it sort of exposes sort of the actual underpinning of what actually works and doesn’t work in the. [00:10:17][48.9]

[00:10:17] It’s almost as if, you know, when you watch The Matrix is a point in the movie where you realize everything’s a simulation and you realize all the pieces are working and grinding together to make the system work. And we’re seeing the same thing across the board in lots of different ways. Right. We’re seeing that also for the financial markets where there are a number of people who thought they had a lot of money to invest and suddenly don’t. [00:10:38][20.6]

[00:10:39] But at the same time, we’ve got a bunch of people sort of who sort of are sitting on piles of cash or eager to play. [00:10:44][5.6]

[00:10:44] Right. And I think that that ability to sort of adjust quickly to the shifting reality and to see the world as it actually is, that’s hard. And so I’m reluctant to make sort of grand pronouncements, but it is definitely one of those cases where I feel like as an entrepreneur and investor, so much of your time now has to be just keeping your eyes open and sort of not using the old rules of thumb that you had. Right. That I have a whole set of like pat answers to things that may no longer apply. And that’s both the fun and the terror of the job. [00:11:13][29.0]

William Norvell: [00:11:14] Hey, James. William, here I want to shift gears to a little bit as your job as an investor in sort of finding new companies to come along, and you mentioned earlier you glad you’re not a market investor, but as you look at what your day to day looks like, are you open for business, looking for new businesses to invest in or are you a pause as well and kind of taking some time to see everything shakes out? Help us kind of get into the world of a venture capitalist or you specifically during the season. [00:11:42][27.4]

James Cham: [00:11:43] Yeah, I think that, you know, I was a software developer in 2000 and then I was a new investor in 2008. And of course, now so I’ve seen a couple of versions of this. And of course, this is totally different from anything that we’ve seen before. [00:11:58][14.9]

[00:11:59] So that’s the first part. And I think that as far as like the generic answer is that seed stage guys are always later to react to macro events that as a seed stage investor, I’m running such small checks, you know, sort of in the grand scheme of things. And also, I’m looking so far ahead. Right. So I’m not expecting to sell a company or sell my position in a company in six months. I’m thinking about it in terms of six to 16 years. [00:12:24][25.5]

[00:12:25] And so as a result of that, you know, the timing is totally different. So that’s the happy talk version of it, which is, yes, we are indeed open for business. [00:12:31][6.1]

[00:12:32] We’ve made a couple investments just even this week. The other part of it, though, is that the world is so uncertain now that now more than ever, like my hypotheses or ideas of how the world will turn out. They’re all up in the air and my ideas about how to think about valuations and what’s valuable. That’s all up in the air. And so that does mean that in some ways my normal theses are changing right now. And I think we’re all trying to adjust. [00:12:56][24.6]

William Norvell: [00:12:57] Well, that’s good. That’s good. Could you go one layer deeper. And you’ve been looking at the world in a certain way, predicting that is sort of your job, trying to predict what will happen and invest in, you know, the world changers. Could you talk about how you got to thinking about that? And this is a point in time. We’re not going to hold you to what could be changing, what should be shifting, what is in question for you right now. And I know you don’t have all the answers, but maybe just minor investors in there right where you are right now. [00:13:24][27.3]

James Cham: [00:13:25] Yeah. You know, sort of I invest a lot in enterprise software and I love enterprise software. I believe it transforms the world. But also, there’s a way in which it is also fundamentally corrupt. It is corrupt in the sense that the people who buy enterprise software oftentimes really are buying it so that they can keep their job or so that they could get promoted rather than they could actually improve the life of a company. And I think that there are a whole bunch of products that were hard to sell in the past because they would require too much wrenching change inside an organization. And if we are indeed looking sort of at a prolonged downturn, then I think there’s a perverse way in which willingness to change is totally different. And so the willingness to adopt new technologies can be different than it has been for the last 10 years. You know, the stereotype of the cool innovation team with the guys, with the purple glasses, you know, sort of that’s how people used to think about new technology. And now the way to think about new technology is something that might actually make a huge difference. And then the implication there is then the buyers are different. The way they buy is different. The way that we think about selling is entirely different. [00:14:33][67.2]

[00:14:33] And I think all those sorts of things we’re trying to figure out right now and it is partly about predicting the future, but it is mostly really about finding the most interesting entrepreneurs in the world who are living the future right now. [00:14:46][13.2]

[00:14:47] Right. And so that’s the way that I actually think about it. [00:14:50][3.2]

Rusty Rueff: [00:14:51] And James, what do you tell the entrepreneur who right now is like at that precarious moment, like about to go raise, but was a couple of months away? But, you know, as the time goes by, they’re burning. And so their burn is up. How did they approach you at this point? Very tactically, and then is there something that you can provide as advice about how they go back to their current investors? Because in normal times, you’re running out of cash and you’re going to hit a wall. You know, you might be able to raise. You just need a little more time and you might go back for that bridge loan that can sometimes feel predatory. In some ways, just give them a little bit of advice on what to do if they’re in that precarious moment. [00:15:35][43.9]

James Cham: [00:15:36] So this is the time for over-communication. I think that if I were just to look at the best founders in my portfolio, they’re just spending a lot of time with what you could generically call investor relations. Right. That they are trying to figure out what’s the position of their various investors. Where are they? How are they doing psychologically? What’s the position of the firm? And I think that involves just lots of conversation, whether that’s over text or email or Skype or phone calls. And I think there’s a way in which the only way that can work well is if you’re connecting with other people. And in part because of the pandemic, it is both easier and harder. It’s obviously harder because just like right now, we can’t see each other face to face. You know, the zoom meeting skips and you can’t tell whether someone’s frowning or whether they just got frozen. Right. So that whole piece becomes harder, but it’s easier because there are so many different ways to connect. Now that there’s so many different ways you can connect with people. [00:16:29][53.8]

[00:16:30] And also in part because this pandemic is so universal, you could connect with people in authentic, deeper ways than you’ve ever been before because everyone’s like worried about their grandmother or they’re sort of stuck at home by themselves. And that chance to connect just gives you visibility. And, you know, sort of from a pragmatic point, it gives you visibility into what’s going on. But also from an eternal point of view, it lets you create relationships that are just going to be important forever. [00:16:57][27.7]

Rusty Rueff: [00:16:59] Yeah. And I got to think that on the flip side of that, as an investor, you know, you probably also got this sort of nervous moment, too, where you don’t want to over ask, but the same time you want to be communicated to. So that over communication piece is a great piece of advice because as an investor, I mean, I’d like to hear before I have to ask. That’s right. And again, that creates confidence. [00:17:22][22.5]

James Cham: [00:17:23] That’s right. And, you know, sort of the essence of that is over communication. But also, it is genuine conversation and it is hard to get genuine conversation just in general in life in the sense that I actually talk to someone. I get a different reaction. I hear something back from them. I react to that and that sort of interplay. I think the best entrepreneurs are able to get there right now very, very quickly. But it’s just hard to do because it’s hard to get people off of their generic positions or to actually think about the situation they’re in the middle of right now. Because I don’t know, as of v.c, I might be on sort of today 15 different 30 minute zoom calls. Right. Plus a couple of blogger meetings and just that ability to transition and think and be present. That’s a huge opportunity. And it’s so, so hard right now. [00:18:11][48.2]

Rusty Rueff: [00:18:12] Yesterday, I was on a call with one of the companies that’s in my little portfolio of investments. Day before yesterday, actually in one of the co-founders wasn’t there. And I said, you know, hey, what’s going on? He goes, Well, I got bad news. He’s very sick, is covered 19. He tested positive. He’s 40 years old. Right. 40 years old. And the other co-founder. You can tell he’s scared. Like he goes, we’re leaving him alone. Fortunately, his wife is a physician’s assistant, but she’s sick, too. And they’re trying to kind of work through this. And you know what it does? It also gives us an opportunity to say, hey, you know, I’m a person of faith. Would you please pass to him that I am sincerely not just making it up. I am praying for him. He goes on my prayer list. So there there is that moment for authentic that we can actually go even a little further in the authenticity of how our faith plays out. [00:19:05][52.6]

James Cham: [00:19:06] Yeah. And I think this is also you know, it’s interesting. This is the moment for Jesus. Right. That this is the moment where it’s only going to be by paying attention to the Holy Spirit and being finely tuned and not getting distracted on Twitter. Right. For you’re going to be able to think that instead of be prompted. And I feel like it’s amazing to me because, you know, the best entrepreneurs have so many distractions and so many like the places where they get information and that ability to step back and actually hear right here what’s important. [00:19:41][35.2]

[00:19:42] That’s beautiful to see when that actually happens. [00:19:44][1.6]

Henry Kaestner: [00:19:45] Indeed. And, you know, I think James, you pointing us to Jesus is super important. [00:19:49][4.3]

[00:19:49] I know I’ve had some actually some very rich conversations with people that share faith over the course last couple of days. Many of them are in the health care space and they are very, very concerned about the impact that this has on the general health population. And of course, it makes sense as their perspective. It’s their flock. It’s for guys uniquely equip them to do with their their talents and their experience. On the other hand, my background is more of being an entrepreneur or even more so than being an investor. And so I feel a particular sensitivity for my flock, if you will. And those are small to medium sized business owners who are going through some real challenges and questioning whether the treatment is going to be worse than the actual disease. And yet again, on the flip side, the health care, people are looking at health care systems being overwhelmed. And I think that the answer for all of us is that we need to look to guide and understand the guy to sovereign and guy cares about the health care and cares about health care professionals. And he cares about the economy and jobless claims and small to medium sized business owners. And the thing that unites us is something that’s we really need to rely on. We need to rely on our shared faith and understand that God is sovereign and that we if we lean on our faith first, it will then give us the grace to be able to engage with other people who might have views that are different than ours will be able to rejoice in what we share in common more than the differences that we have. And it will allow us to then be able to be a more effective witness and testimony to others that are trying to figure out what they think and why they think. This just really strikes me as just an incredible time for us all as believers to be able to speak into the different sectors in which we have been given the special privilege of being able to speak into. And I think as investors, that’s super important. My sense as an investor right now, the conversations I have or the next two months about why I have the hope that I have, the perspective I have will clips that that I had in all of 2019 and probably will have an of Lord wine on all of 2021. And it’s a conversation, hopefully of encouragement to the entrepreneurs that are in our portfolio that are laying people off. It’s an encouragement to our is to be able to help them and understand that with their money that they’ve entrusted us with, that we’re looking to be faithful stores of that and that we’re playing the long game that we’re looking to love on great enterprises and great leaders who we have chosen invest in not so much because of their idea or because of what they’re can hit next quarter or the following quarter, but because of our assessment in their talent to be able to see what the market is giving them and to be able respond by adding value to the overall economy. And I just I hope that we all lean into that. And it’s daunting. It’s not easy, but it does, I think, make us rely more on God. And so this has been a very spiritually rich time for me. [00:22:35][165.9]

James Cham: [00:22:36] Yeah. You know, it’s so interesting because, of course, it’s not going to be all good news. Like, I feel like I’ve maybe I’ve sounded too optimistic in this conversation. There’s going to be a lot of pain and a lot of people’s lives are going to feel like they’re gonna be destroyed. And it’s really, really hard. There’s a way in which, you know, sort of for the younger entrepreneurs, they’ve never seen a downturn. Reagan sort of they’ve got in the job market in 2008, and they’ve only seen it go up since then. [00:22:58][22.3]

[00:22:59] And I think this idea that bad things could happen to people who are capable or people who are good will have a difficult time getting a job. [00:23:07][8.1]

[00:23:08] That idea is actually going to be really hard for a bunch of people to understand and to process, especially for those who’ve been incredibly blessed and incredibly successful. And I think that that that humbling process, you know, that’s going to require deep character, but it’s also going to require like deep theology. I think there’s a way in which all the theoretical things that you’ve learned in Sunday school, all the ideas you’ve got around the Trinity, all the ideas you’ve got around redemption. Sort of God’s role in this world, they’re going to be tested now, and I think and I hope that the church is ready for this moment. [00:23:42][34.5]

[00:23:43] And that’s, you know, to us I am partly praying about now, but I’m also partly praying that we as a set of institutions and a tribe of people that will be resilient for the long term and not sort of fall apart because of, you know, various disagreements or discussions over the next couple days, because we were still thinking in terms of days. I feel like we should be thinking in terms of months and quarters and years. And so that’s the thing that I pray about. [00:24:11][27.7]

William Norvell: [00:24:12] Amen. James, I’m interested in how when you talk about people that are not in a downturn, I just think that’s such a pressure conversation, especially in Silicon Valley or in the broader, you know, early stage technology world where I think it’s been especially good. Right. I mean, if you’re a good engineer, there’s ten job offers. People are e-mailing you on LinkedIn everywhere. There are no layoffs. It’s just even further out to the right. As you see, your company potentially have to deal with layoffs. I’m wondering a couple of things. One, are companies in the early stage tech space, do you see some layoffs coming, too? Do you see in 2020 budgets being readjusted? I think there’s also a mindset out there that are you know, once they open the doors, all are going to go back to normal. Mehta How are you counseling your company there in 3D? Do you see a fundamental shift maybe out in the early stage tech sector where people are going to slow the pace a little bit, maybe go more towards optimal growth instead of crazy venture capital feel growth that has been sort of happening over the last decade. Like and I know Megan needs a couple of different predictions and I wondered how you see it this time, you know, potentially changing those things. [00:25:21][69.2]

James Cham: [00:25:22] You know, it ranges. So why the…I will admit that I’ve tried very hard to bite my tongue and to let the entrepreneur tell me what’s going on first before I come over because it really depends on the sector right now. And I think the only thing we know right now is that that, yes, there are going to be lots of layoffs in certain sectors and it’s going to be really, really painful. And lots of very good people are going to be in a position where they’re going to face financial insecurity for the first time in their life and sort of being able to process that and being there for them, it can be hard. I think the other things is gonna be true, that layoffs are going to happen online. And, you know, layoffs are already inhumane. It’s so difficult for both parties but to have to lay off 100 people or 150 people over video conference like that’s crazy. And that’s never been done before. I think that for certain types of companies, they’re going to do very, very well in this market. There’s certain ones where companies are you know, investors are banging on their walls because they’re especially suited for remote work or for automation. There are other companies that sort of, let’s say, companies in the travel industry. Right. Or companies that are reliant on sort of Face-To-Face interaction as part of their value, where they’re going to have to like shut down basically for months and months as everyone figures out this pandemic. And I think the reality of that is just it’s just so hard to look face on and understand. So that’s part of it. And then I think the broader question of will things be different? Yes, things will be different. But it’s not like gods told us how things will be different three months from now. The way that things are we different. We are highly dependent on sort of the decisions that individual entrepreneurs and leaders and pastors. The pattern is that they set right now could sort of set the pattern for the next couple of decades. And I think that’s both encouraging and terrifying, right. That right now, when we’re already distracted and worried about our kids or our grandparents at this moment, when we are hampered, the decisions we make are going to set down for a long time. And it’s only by the grace of God. Right, that we’ll make the decisions. And I think spending time sort of just holding your breath a little bit, stepping back and praying and sort of in a world where there’s infinite amounts of information. Right. Sort of being able to focus on the things that are really important and that sort of actually should influence your decision. That’s the challenge, I think, for investors and entrepreneurs and everyone right now. [00:27:42][139.9]

Henry Kaestner: [00:27:43] James, anything else that may have not come up in conversation or anything else? And there is a need to be we cover a lot of ground, but is there anything else that you think that our audience needs to know about? [00:27:52][9.2]

James Cham: [00:27:53] So, you know, I come from a strain of Christianity that’s mildly charismatic. Like we’re not, like, super charismatic, really mildly charismatic. [00:27:59][6.3]

[00:28:00] And I’ve been convinced for the last couple of quarters that revivals around the corner. [00:28:07][6.6]

[00:28:08] You know, there’s a secular historian named Jill Lipoor, who writes about American history, who the other day said, you know, America’s overdue for a revival, like a religious revival. [00:28:16][8.5]

[00:28:17] And I thought, oh, my goodness, here we have a secular historian and she has more faith in me. What’s wrong with me? Right. And I think that there’s a way in which, you know, there’s going to be revival and it’s going to come out as like something out of jail. But it’s going to be the dreams of old men. And it’s can be the prophecy and work of young people. And I think there’s a way in which, like as a 46 year old, you know, sort of my dreams are different than the actual work that’s gonna be required. And so I’m very hopeful about this entire generation of like teenagers and 20 somethings who are gonna talk about God differently and they’re gonna be raised in a totally different environment and their ability to communicate. And our ability is like sort of investors or older people to recognize the value that they create and encourage that. I feel like that’s the challenge for me. [00:29:04][47.3]

Henry Kaestner: [00:29:05] That’s a great encouragement. That’s a great word. [00:29:07][1.4]

William Norvell: [00:29:07] Amen, such a great word. Thank you for coming on sharing your wisdom. I love how you framed the last couple of moments of just that. This is a big time for people to lean into the Holy Spirit, to lean into Jesus, to try to understand what he’s calling us to in situation, and that those could have big impacts moving forward. And so in the midst of that, I’d love to ask you, you know, whereas God have you right now, potentially this morning or over the last few weeks during this crisis, where did he have you and his word? What name is coming alive in a new way? You just mentioned a great pass from Joel. So maybe a little bit more on that, but it’s something else. Where did he had you maybe walk us listeners through where you are experienced? [00:29:47][39.2]

James Cham: [00:29:48] Here’s where I really am. You know, I have a little bit of a cold I’m sort of a little paranoid. I’m sitting in my grise. I’m worried about like my family and my friends in my portfolio, you know, sort of I’m trying to not look at Twitter, you know. [00:30:00][11.7]

[00:30:00] So that’s where I really am. And at the same time, I’m also sitting here at a time when it feels like I don’t know the institutions that proved to be effective and good now are gonna earn credibility for decades and decades. [00:30:14][13.1]

[00:30:14] And I just so pray that those institutions will be Christian ones like, you know, sort of led by people who are going to follow Jesus and Senate example for people for a long, long time. And so it doesn’t have to be me. It doesn’t have to be someone listening on this podcast. But it’s got to be someone and I pray so hard that sort of God will raise those men and women up and that they’ll help them create these institutions that really could last for a long, long time. And so, you know, that’s my hope. That’s my prayer. And sort of like that’s my blessing to you guys. [00:30:47][33.0]

William Norvell: [00:30:48] Amen! Thank you so much for spending some time with us during the season. [00:30:52][3.8]

James Cham: [00:30:52] Indeed. Yeah. Hey, feel for your brother. Yeah. No, my pleasure, guys. You know, God bless you for your work and hope to see you guys physically soon. [00:30:52][0.0]

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We’re so excited to share a conversation today that we think is long overdue. If you’ve been following the website, you’ve no doubt seen the name Jerry Bowyer as we’ve featured several of his blog posts (including “How God’s Work is the Model for Your Work” and others)—all of which are must-reads. 

Jerry is a leading thinker in finance and economics and a frequent contributor for Forbes and Townhall. His writing has been influential in the faith driven conversations. One of the things Jerry is really known for is stretching our thinking. Often times he takes positions that cause many of us to consider the other side of a conversation and we think you’ll enjoy our conversation.

Tune in to hear Jerry’s thoughts on how to read the Bible and the dangers of trying to pin scripture on our business ideas vs. starting with what Scripture says and seeing our ideas move out of it. Our hope is that we walk away challenged to dive even deeper into Scripture and how to invest as faithfully as we possibly can. 

Useful Links:

What Does Jesus Teach About Investing?

How God’s Work is a Model for Your Work

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry: [00:01:55] Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. It is awesome, as always, to have you with us. I’m joined by my co-host, William. And we have a really special guest here that’s made a big impact in the way that both William and I have thought about this larger faith driven investing lens and ecosystem. Jerry Boyer here. And we’re going to get right into this. Jerry is very thoughtful about many different aspects of faith driven investing. He’s thought about it, about what God says. I listened to a talk that he gave several years ago about how he looks at some Old Testament stories like the sons of Issacar and what they meant for this age. [00:02:32][37.3]

[00:02:33] And so, Jerry, I want you to take this conversation the way you want to. We were talking before the program started today, and you were like, you know, ’cause there’s so many different podcasts that talk about God owns it all. And we’re going to get right in this and just validate all that. We understand that there’s an increasing awareness of Christ followers, that there’s an opportunity to worship God with the money entrusted us to, and that we need to be vigilant for greed. That is a very important part of this overall piece. And yet it’s just a little bit of a piece. You’ve done some really interesting work in going back into scripture to endeavor to understand what did Jesus say about invested in? What did Genesis say about investing in Genesis is an easy place to start. Is it the beginning of the Bible? What is your reading of Genesis tell you about how we might think about investing in a way that honors God? [00:03:21][47.5]

Jerry: [00:03:22] Well, I think if you look at the Book of Genesis carefully, and the easiest thing for us to do is to take our best thinking and hang it on a biblical text or to take our arguments or our debates or even our questions and bring them to the Bible and tell the Bible, “answer my question, Bible.” And I happened, actually, my wife and I together decided to look more closely at the Book of Genesis several years ago. It was actually after a health crisis. I know you had a health crisis. You ended up in the hospital unexpectedly. So did I. And I was laying in that hospital bed and I thought, OK, God, I think this is a good chance to get closer to you. And I was already a Christian, and I think I would have considered myself a serious Christian, and most people would have said the same thing. But maybe I need to get more serious. [00:04:10][48.5]

[00:04:11] And I thought, well, what’s God’s love language? Well, God’s love language is scripture, mostly Hebrew. So I said, okay, God, I think what you’re calling us to do is to get deeply into the scriptures. Let’s start from the beginning. So what my wife and I did is every night, my wife and I would read the creation account in the book of Genesis in Hebrew together, and we would do Genesis 1. And then, you know, that would take a couple of weeks. And then we go back to the beginning of 1:1 again. And then we’d go and when we that Chapter 2 the next time through and we just kept going until it was like Genesis 1 through 9. [00:04:49][38.3]

[00:04:51] And after about five years of that, an archbishop who had ordained me, who was also the chancellor of a university, asked me about my personal study. Jerry, what are you studying in your personal Bible study? And I told him about the Genesis work and he said, well, I think that’s a master’s degree or we call an STL. And if you enrolled and wrote an 80 page thesis on that, we think that could be a degree. Me being a deacon, him being an archbishop, I thought, I guess I better do this. So I did it. And it was 240 pages, not 80, spent about a year and a half on it. And so there’s a lot there. So I don’t really think we can cover the 240 pages, which are basically a commentary on Genesis 1 through 3 Hebrew text. But a lot of stuff jumps out in the Hebrew text and it’s really not about what we bring to it. And what most Christians bring to the text of Genesis is our fight with Darwinism. And we have a fight with Darwinism and it’s understandable why. So we want to know what can Genesis fit with an old earth or a young earth? [00:06:04][73.0]

[00:06:04] We’re bringing our questions to it. But God didn’t write Genesis 1 through 3 to refute Darwin. He wrote Genesis 1 through 3 to tell us something. So throughout we said, What are you telling us? In other words, we ask the Bible to tell us what questions it wants us to ask it rather than bringing our best questions. Two thousand years ago, the church fathers brought philosophical questions. Now evangelicals bring scientific questions. And we concluded that even though it has scientific or philosophical implications, it’s not mainly about that. And we said, OK, God, why did you write this to us? [00:06:43][39.1]

[00:06:44] What are the questions we’re supposed to be asking? And that’s the work on Genesis. So we stop there and see kind of where you want to go from there. Because it’s such a broad topic, it’s really kind of hard to know what part we should focus on. Yeah, we could go a thousand different ways there. [00:06:57][13.2]

Henry: [00:06:57] I’d love to talk about the difference between reading the Bible in Hebrew versus English and I would like to go in all that, but we probably can’t with this. What I’d like to go to specifically is as an investor and you speak a lot about investing, what does your reading of Genesis tell you about the way that you were to Steward Capital and to invest? How are you a better investor because you read through Genesis 1 through 3 exhaustively? [00:07:21][23.4]

[00:07:23] I wish exhaustively. I exhausted myself. But, you know, just as of yesterday, there’s something else that popped out at us. It’s really amazing. It’s probably the densest piece of writing in human history, except maybe some of the gospel accounts. All right. So what do I take away from that? I take away from that that this is a book about apprenticeship. God is the Emperor and Adam is the prince in waiting. And Adam was put in a garden to learn how God did things. And then at some point, when he was sufficiently apprenticed, he and his wife were to be given a ceremony, were to be given authority, and then sent out into the world to make the wilderness, the land like the garden. [00:08:05][41.6]

[00:08:06] So that this is basically the story of a dynasty. What’s called a co regency, where you have a senior king and a junior king or king in waiting who is watching and studying the ways of the palace so that someday he can rule together with his father, not replace like we have with human kingship ships, because the senior king, the emperor is eternal. But there was an under-agedness to Adam, which was not supposed to be permanent, and he was supposed to learn the ways of Elohim, learn the ways of God, and then go out and make the world that way. And the world was made to be remade, but the world wasn’t finished. The garden was finished. But the wilderness was not finished. The garden was the model. The world was the clay that Adam was supposed to shape to make it more like the garden. And he was supposed to learn wisdom through an apprentice model. [00:09:00][54.2]

[00:09:01] So the world was made to be changed. And it yields over and over again what has created created as Baraa and made as Osei. So you have Osei God made, and that’s similar to the word yield. Yield as an investment word. Well, the reason that we can have yield in investments is because yield is built into the creation. The creation is made to grow. When we interact with it and that growth or growth potential in the creation is the reason that yield is legitimate. Aristotle didn’t think interest rate or yield was legitimate because he thought it was sterile. Marx thought it wasn’t. A lot of medieval theologians didn’t because they saw a static universe. Pagan economics just basically saw the universe as static and whatever god there was as either stingy or uninvolved. [00:09:46][45.4]

[00:09:47] But we have a God who’s generous, and if God’s generous, then I can lend you money and you can make money and you can still pay me interest because it grew faster than the interest. A generous God is a God where investment is possible, where me getting a dividend or an interest payment or a capital gain is not at your expense. Cause there’s enough growth for the investi and the invest store to be partners with one another and grow together. Because the Hebrew universe is a seed in itself. Things multiplying universe, whereas the pagan universe is essentially a dead no growth universe. [00:10:23][35.8]

Henry: [00:10:25] So the first lesson from Genesis is that investments, looking to get a return on investments, is something that was part of the initial design. [00:10:32][7.2]

Jerry: [00:10:33] Yes, you can argue that God’s making of the garden is an investment. He expends labor to create a physical plant environment. In this case, the garden is basically a school. It’s job training for Adam and his wife to become, you know, the earthly king and queen of the universe. God spends of himself first to get a return later. So he himself is an investor. [00:11:01][27.9]

Henry: [00:11:03] OK, so things didn’t go where it was just this beautiful investment with just yield year in, year out the way that it might have been their fall happened. Presumably that impacted not only the Garden and Adam, of course, irreparably, forever, but it also included the type of investments that man then made from that point going forward. Talk about that. [00:11:25][22.4]

Jerry: [00:11:26] Yeah, well, God made an investment. And Adam and his wife were essentially the stewards, kind of the managers of that investment. And they ripped him off. And, you know, that’s a problem that comes down to us today. Economist call it agency risk. If I’m the owner and I put assets under your care. Are you gonna follow my interests? Or are you going to follow your own interests at my expense? Are you gonna give yourself an expensive corporate jet or engage in political virtue signaling or just mismanage or grow out of a psychological need rather than, you know what’s really wise or fail to grow, you know, whatever your thing is. Are you gonna be a self dealer or are you gonna be a faithful steward? [00:12:06][39.7]

[00:12:07] See, this idea of stewardship goes right back to Genesis. It’s not something introduced in Jesus’s parables. Jesus as parables are genesis based parables in many cases. It’s why there’s so agricultural. So God made an investment and the stewards of his investment essentially ripped him off. Now God came back in and rescued it, but he had to rescue it. And one of the ways he rescues it is in some sense by making it tougher on the stewards. The curses in Genesis after the fall tend to be weakening and confusion, curses, not just like punishment curses. So Adam’s strength was his work, but now he sweats, right? Adam’s strength again was his labor. He was supposed to conquer the world. You know, the wilderness. But now he gets thorns and thistles. The woman’s role was to help him in that and to help him. You know, one of the ways was bring children into the world, but that’s where it goes wrong. [00:13:03][55.9]

[00:13:03] So every place where the man and woman were strong, their strength was decreased a little bit. And so we live in that fallen world of we work and it’s hard and there’s sweat and we work and we intend one thing. But another thing comes out that’s thorns and thistles. We think we’re planting wheat. And what we end up getting is things that really don’t serve our purposes. So in addition to the challenges of being a faithful steward of God’s resources, which Adam had, we now have the additional challenges of not being able to be trusted completely with the power that man originally had and to have that power. In some ways, Kirst and turned down a little bit because if things were too easy, we’d have too much room to get into mischief. Human nature is such that we can’t be trusted with as much power as we’d like to be or even as we were before the fall. [00:13:58][54.7]

William: [00:13:59] It’s really interesting. Jerry, William here. I Love kind of going back through the word of God. I mean, we try to do that a lot here on the show because it does just reveal so much about God’s character, who he is and what he wants us to do with our resources and our capital. And I love how you’re kind of reframing maybe some common thoughts about a story, especially here, the creation story, and kind of bringing it back to, you know, what is the scripture actually tell us if we take away our world view that we’re bringing to it. And I’d love if you would maybe dove into, you know, a topic or two more. Another passage to a scripture where maybe you’ve heard it used for the faith driven investing movement where you think, you know, hey, not that people are going to go wrong here, but maybe they’re not seeing the full picture here of what God story is trying to tell us and how we should steward our resources. [00:14:47][48.2]

Jerry: [00:14:48] Well, yeah, I think that may be one of the things that we’re missing or gets too little emphasis is that the main purpose of mankind is to glorify God by filling the earth and subduing it. The main purpose of man is not avoiding sin. And I think the evangelical conversation in general, and that includes the evangelical financial conversation can easily fall into the idea that the Christian life is the life of sin avoidance. And you certainly are supposed to avoid sin. I mean, the very definition of something you should avoid and God did give a limit. God did say guard the garden. Adam failed to guard the garden. And the serpent came in and ruined everything. We can come back on that if we want. I don’t think the first sin was the eating of the fruit. I think the first sin was letting the serpent in. I’ll just put that there is a marker. You want to come back? You can or we can just kind of move on. [00:15:42][53.7]

[00:15:43] Adam’s job was primarily a positive one, which was fill the earth and subdue it. And however, Adam, I’ve got a restriction on you. There’s a tree you’re not supposed to eat from. But Adam’s main job was not to refrain from eating that tree. Adam’s main job was to fill the earth and subdue it and guard rails around that are one of the things you shouldn’t do is eat from that tree unless I tell you you can eat from it. And I think what happens is that we get focused on sin. And arguably it was in fact too much focus on sin that made the tree so appealing when we’re supposed be busy about the business of glorifying God. How do we glorify God? Well, how did he say to glorify him, fill the earth and subdue it? Exercise dominion over the birds. They are the fish of the sea and over the beasts of the field. That’s the job of humanity. And that’s largely what businesses. So that mandate is never removed. It’s never turned down. It’s never rescinded. It is, in fact, reaffirmed in Jesus the second Adam. And so that’s mainly our job as entrepreneurs and investors is to fulfill that. And yes, of course, along the lines, sin messes it up. So avoiding sin is ancillary to the main goal, which is glorifying God in this case through dominion over the earth, glorifying it. [00:17:07][83.9]

Henry: [00:17:08] So I love that from a couple of different angles. One is that a lot of times in our investment, we talk about sins that we see in our portfolio companies. In this one, I mean, we prefer sins of commission rather than sins of omission. We’d like to see leaders who will take action and error on that side. And I think it really comes to the subject really of taking risk. Since there is no specific example of exactly, here’s what you’re supposed to do next is not open, nor there’s some risk involved of going ahead and trying different things towards an end goal in mind. And yet we have to take risk. If we’re just focused on sin avoidance, then that’s almost a risk avoidance. Absolutely. Maybe I’m reading into it too much. [00:17:46][38.4]

Jerry: [00:17:46] Now, I know you’re not. That’s right. If we’re focused exclusively on sin avoidance, then what we will tend to do is we will get paralyzed. And I think this is part of the message in the gospels of the various paralytic that Jesus runs into, that a lot of society had become essentially paralyzed. I can’t touch anything. I can’t go anywhere. I can’t do anything. Everything is unclean. Everything is bad. Or if it’s not bad, it’s debatable. And the Pharisees just added rule on top of rule on top of rule. And it was never enough. And you’ve got one group of Pharisees who come along and at some commands and then other Pharisees come along and say those other Pharisees, they’re really soft on sin. Where the real pure ones. And then they add more and eventually you get the scenes. They have to completely withdraw from society. But even Knake Sin goes with them. You know, to the Kumaran community, right. Even though they’re basically hermits, they’re still sent in the world. And it’s a paralyzing thing. And Jesus comes along and just breaks all those barriers down. He’s touching unclean people. [00:18:46][60.2]

[00:18:47] Does he become unclean? No. They become clean. When Jesus touches a dead body, does Jesus become ceremonially unclean, like in the Torah? No. Why? Because the Torah was wrong? No. Because Jesus is contagious holiness. He’s contagious life. So he’s touching lepers and he’s touching women with a mission of blood. All this unclean stuff. And also morally unclean. He’s dealing with tax collectors. He’s dealing with prostitutes. And he’s getting criticized for it by the people who want to take no risks. So when in doubt, do nothing. Jesus is very active, taking all kinds of risks and getting criticized for it constantly. He is investing himself, even at the risk of being seen as being far too close to centers. [00:19:32][44.5]

Henry: [00:19:33] So this is fascinating. You’re heading right into a big, big, big topic that’s going on a feature of investing, which is how do we think about screens and negative screens? How do we think about companies that are doing things that would bother us as Christ followers? Maybe they’re involved in pornography, maybe they’re involved in tobacco. Think of the different things that would make us uncomfortable. And so on one hand, as someone who’s driven by their faith. You don’t want to presumably be a part of aiding and abetting somebody who’s a known distributor of pornography. And some people would say that’s what we do when we invest in a company that has that as a major part of their revenue. On the other part, you can see another angle, and I love to see just how you balance these two, which is if Jesus was out there talking to the prostitute into different people, tax collector and people who are thought of as unclean at the time, do we just run away from all those things? So how do we appropriately engage but without being in a spot which would make us fall into sin? So I think that everybody’s following what you’re saying. Make it real in the world of investing through this conversation about negative screens, please. [00:20:41][67.8]

Jerry: [00:20:42] Yeah. I’m happy to. But let me just kind of say that I’m happy to talk about that. But I do notice. I guess that’s the big topic, right? So we sort of have to talk about it. But I’m bothered that it’s the big topic because I don’t think it’s the big topic in scripture. I think it’s there, but it gets so much more conversation. The Bible does deal with these issues. The Pharisees criticizing Jesus. Then later, the Judy Isaiah’s and also some of the weaker brethren were concerned about meat being sacrificed to idols. Right. So you have those controversies. But those are almost side issues as Jesus goes about his business. And then later, as Paul and the apostles go about their business, their about their father’s business. Right. And then these issues come up and someone accuses them and then they answer and then they get back to their father’s business. So, I mean, in the providence of God, the evangelical conversation has largely been about sin screens, which I find unfortunate, but that is God’s providence. So we kind of have to work with that. So what I would say is, first of all, if something is not a faith, that sin. So the Bible is perfectly clear that if you think something is morally wrong, it violates your conscience. You’re not allowed to do it. So even though you have the freedom to eat meat sacrificed to idols, if you don’t know that you have that freedom, if you think that it’s wrong, maybe you’re a recent convert and you still have feelings of religious piety towards the false idols. When you eat meat sacrificed to idols, maybe it understand how much liberty you have in Christ. Maybe it’s a real stumbling block for you. Then you definitely should not eat. And screeners and financial advisers can help you with that. You know, you can tell them what you’re scruple is and they can say, OK, well, we’ve got a fund for that or even we can set up a separately managed account so you don’t have that. So I strongly affirm that people who have a conscience issue with a particular investment. [00:22:30][107.6]

[00:22:30] Nick Stonestreet, my friend likes to say, let’s say somebody who’s a child was killed by a drunk driver. They don’t want to invest in alcohol stocks. Honor that. They think it’s wrong. Honor that. And an adviser who helps them honor that is in my opinion doing righteous work that should be praised. But to go the extra step, which is to say that your social associations, which include your commercial associations, mean that the sins committed by someone with whom you are associated or dealing even with a financial tie become your sins too, that they you’re appropriating like you touch a dead body. And your ceremonially dead, I think, is not the teaching of the Bible. I think the biblical teaching is your sins or your sins. And if I associate if you’re doing some sin, Henry, and I know you are. Because we all are. If you’re doing some sin and I associate with you, your sin is in mine and my sin isn’t yours. And if you have business dealings with somebody, if you buy a product from a company and something company does something sinful, their sins aren’t your sin. Sin is not transferable along commercial associations. [00:23:44][74.0]

Henry: [00:23:46] But some people and I think you’re very right, when you started it, when we started going down this rabbit trail, you said, you know, do we really want to go there? And if we go there, is that the risk of consuming what a lot of people are talking about right now, and yet they’re missing a much bigger picture. I need to be very clear. I absolutely want to move on quickly from this to get onto the much bigger picture, because I think people are missing the positive aspects of how we might invest. I think that’s important. I do want to just ask you this question, those clarifying things, some people, listeners might think, well, is it different, though, when we’re investing in a company that’s about adult entertainment? Is some aspect of debt financing or equity financing actually helping them to accomplish a goal or a mission that is counterproductive to society in the first line of society? And therefore, while we’re not actually engaging in that pornography by investing in them, we’re participating. Is that a dynamic or if that’s too thorny, we can move on. We can go on to the positive side. [00:24:41][55.0]

Jerry: [00:24:41] But no, no. We can take it on. Like I say, I think that once we start with what are the limits and what am I allowed to do? We’ve already started the Pharisee’s conversation. OK. And that conversation already kind of arcs the Pharisees direction. And that’s why those are the kind of questions that came to Jesus. Generally, they didn’t come to Jesus with. I mean, there’s one who said, well, what’s the law and the prophets? And he said, while you’re close to the kingdom of God. With that answer. But generally it’s what are the limits? How much can you do on the Sabbath? Who can you touch? Who can you eat with? And I think if that is the starting point of our conversation. And let’s start off with hardest cases to find out whether there are any lines at all. Then we’re already staring at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and saying, well, we can’t eat it. Can we touch it? Can we eat the other trees? We’re already starting. In my opinion, the conversation that then the Hosch wants to have, which is just how many commandments has God given you? And he seems to give you a lot of commandments and he seems to be a very restrictive God woman. [00:25:45][64.1]

[00:25:45] And she kind of goes along with it. She says, yes, we’re not allowed to eat, nor are we allowed to touch. So I’ll just put it this way. Where did Jesus put the limit? Who was Jesus unwilling to deal? With who was he unwilling to eat with? Who was he unwilling to have financial dealings with? He 8 with tax collectors and prostitutes. So where are tax collectors were so hated that. I mean, you think about ancient religious leaders. One thing religious leaders they like to do is they like to accept donations. Tax collectors were so hated that they were singled out as a group you couldn’t even take donations from. So religious leaders who live on donations like. Yeah, but not from tax collectors. And Jesus constantly ate with them. [00:26:31][45.2]

[00:26:31] Some of them are dependent, but there’s no sign they all repentant. They still ate. They bought him lunch over and over and over again. And in fact, Jesus, his critics even saw that. What did they call him, a glutton and a winebibber because he was living off of the ill gotten gains of the tax collectors. So I’ll just turn it back. Let’s look at the life of Jesus and let’s find out where Jesus put his the limits on his relationship. I’m not seeing it. He deals with the rich young ruler. Right. The rich young ruler is corrupt. You can read an essay I wrote about that. I don’t think he’s just greedy. I think he’s corrupt. [00:27:01][29.4]

[00:27:02] But who walks away? Does Jesus walk away or does the rich young ruler walk away? The rich young ruler walks away. Jesus was hanging in there. So when did we become the walkaway people? When did we become the first people to walk away? When did we become the people whose whole conversation is about? How long before we walk away from the Sanhedrin member or the tax collector or the center? No doubt there is some kind of limits and we can talk about limits. I think the limits are. Are you, in fact, yourself sinning? But let’s get rid of any idea that having lunch with Zacchaeus, the tax collector catered by Zacchaeus with his dirty money, didn’t make Jesus unclean. So let’s keep going back to the life of Jesus and see where he put the limits, not where I put the limits. It’s where he puts the limits. [00:27:51][49.5]

William: [00:27:52] That’s good. That’s good, Jerry. I want to switch out of a little bit and want to talk about that. I’ve heard you say before it’s similar lines, but now I’ve heard you talk about Jesus never gave instructions on where and how to invest. One of the most famous investing parables, the parable of the talents. People bring that up a lot in these talks when they talk about faith driven, investing in a love for you to give us a little bit of what your study has shown you about that passage and how that translates into the everyday investor and how they should think about how Jesus thinks about stewarding our money. [00:28:27][34.5]

Jerry: [00:28:28] Yeah, I’m happy to. But, you know, I hate to be this guy who’s always like critiquing the question because I love you guys. But I want to let the text tell me which questions to ask, not me. Say, what does this mean for investors? Right. And like so once we let the tech speak to us, once Jesus delivers his economic message to us, then we reflect on it. We chew on it like a cow chews on cud, and then we start applying it to our lives. So I don’t want to go so quick to how do we apply this? I think we pre apply. We don’t necessarily drink deeply and reflect over a long period and then apply. So I mean, it’s that’s part of the general conversation. What’s Jesus doing all this money stuff in the Bible? I mean, the Gospels have an enormous amount of material about money. [00:29:14][47.0]

[00:29:15] And the really weird thing is that Jesus, who’s supposed to be, according to a lot of the academic scholars, leading some kind of peasant revolt against business and against markets and all the rest of it seems to. Over and over again. Right. These little business stories, these little case studies, these parables in which the good guy is the investor and the unfaithful steward is the bad guy, a guy who’s leading a peasant revolt against private property. And, you know, kind of like Jesus as Che Guevara or Fidel Castro, which became very hip in the 70s and 80s. And academic theologian circles. The way they had to do that is by basically saying Jesus didn’t write those parables. They were added later. Well, you know, because Jesus couldn’t have known all this stuff about finance. So therefore, these aren’t from Jesus. Therefore, we can rescue Jesus, the revolutionary. Well, all right. That’s wrong on so many levels. First of all, Jesus was financially sophisticated. How do we know? Because he grew up in Nazareth. And Nazareth was a small town, but it was a suburb of a large town, which was the financial center of Galilee called Sulfurous. There we have. We’ve dug up the banks. Jesus would have grown up around financially sophisticated people. So these parables are not beyond his ability, beyond the ability of the Jesus that we thought. We know the archaeology. Mel tells us that Jesus would have been around finance a lot. And he’s telling stories in which the investor is generally the good guy. So I think that’s a big part of just approaching Jesus as old money and his Jesus holds money. Conversation number one, he knew what it was talking about. He wasn’t a country bumpkin. Number two, he seemed to have an investor’s point of view. Number three, related to this, the economy of Galilee was very different from the economy of Judea. Galilee was a very entrepreneurial economy. I’ve just I’ve I’ve read the archeological reports almost on a nightly basis. Almost every Galilee in town had several shops. You had builders, you know, like Joseph and son. You had industrial they stone jar masons at Cana. Wedding at Cana rings true to history because they did make stone jars. There you have industrial fishing going on, not subsistence fisherman Peter and James and John. This was an industry. So Jesus grew up in an entrepreneurial area. [00:31:26][130.7]

[00:31:27] Down in Judea, it’s very hierarchical, very old money, very politically connected. What we might call a crony economy. So here’s something important to remember. Jesus does not have a single confrontation over wealth with any wealthy individual in Galilee. Not one. Every single confrontation with wealthy individuals is geographically near Jerusalem, the political capital, and socially near in that the confrontations are with a rich young ruler. Senator Zacchaeus, the tax collector and the moneylenders who had a monopoly from Herod. So Jesus. Only makes financial critiques when he is in places where the economy is largely a top down extractive as opposed to an entrepreneurial economy, and he only does it with people who are members of the extractive class. [00:32:20][53.4]

Henry: [00:32:22] I follow that. This has been super helpful for me. And, you know, whenever we get ready to do this podcast, we come in with just a whole bunch of different questions we’ve been wanting to ask you for a while. And what you’ve done is you’ve changed the paradigm for me. And I hope that for a number of our listeners, which is what are the questions we should be asking and I want to get back into that. And before we go to wrap and I think Lord One, this will be first of many, many installments. I love the way you’ve been very thoughtful about all of this. And I know that you gonna be come out with a book, this simulator in the spring. There’s so much more we can revisit on this. But before William asked you the final question, we always asked our guests. I want to ask you, what’s another question that you see? Investors that endeavored to follow God was the question that they should be at. We know the questions are asking. Right. We’re just as Sally said now, you just grain all those different different types. Then what can I invest in? What I can invest in? And I think that you’ve put together a very good point about why those are the wrong questions. But I’m curious about what’s a question you see that investors should be asking but aren’t. And how does the text answer that question they should be asking but aren’t? [00:33:27][65.4]

Jerry: [00:33:28] Let me first mention the one that I want him to stop asking. You know, I used to be a Christian radio talk show host, so I kind of got a sense of how Christians thought. And we did, you know, shows on Christian entrepreneurship a lot. And a woman called in and she said, well, we’re entrepreneurs. My husband, I own a business. But for, you know, a year and a half, we wanted to be business owners, but we didn’t know whether we were allowed. So we talked to our pastor and we read books and we studied the scriptures to find out if we’re allowed to be entrepreneurs. And they ended up believing that they were allowed to be entrepreneurs and they became entrepreneurs. And I was glad they landed there, but my heart was broken by that conversation. So what I would say, I mean, I almost want to scream it from the rooftop. Stop asking potential Christian entrepreneurs. Stop asking the question. Am I allowed? That is so much the wrong question. I’m telling you right now, you are allowed you are encouraged to by the example of God himself, is the creator of the universe and Jesus who came from an entrepreneurial family and an entrepreneurial culture and start asking God, how should I do it? [00:34:40][71.5]

[00:34:40] How can I do it with excellence? How can I be the best? Oh, and along the way, God, please help me avoid sin. But how can I glorify you with excellence so that people say, look at the excellence of this person’s work and look at the wisdom they have. I want to talk to them and see where they get that wisdom from. Stop asking. Am I allowed? Stop starting off with what am I not allowed to do? And start asking God, what would you have me do? What is your command for something for me to do? Not focus on whether I’m allowed to be an entrepreneur at all. I took away from that conversation the idea that at least in the subculture of that particular Christian Christians had a year and a half disadvantage. They had a year and a half thinking about whether they’re allowed to move and innovate, which non-Christians didn’t have. I would rather we have a forward culture when it comes to entrepreneurs where we entrepreneur earlier and faster and it becomes part of our culture and entrepreneurial culture. And of course, don’t sin along the way. [00:35:39][59.0]

Henry: [00:35:40] OK, so that’s very helpful. I completely get it. I’m right with you. I see it all the time. So tell us, what does it look like? Where did the questions that we might be asking more generally of scripture that might lead us to being able to innovate and invest better and more quickly than rest of secular society because they’re looking in the wrong place and they’re asking the wrong question? [00:35:59][19.1]

Jerry: [00:36:01] Well, I’d say one of the things I would hearken back to a conversation you had with Trae Stephens and I look at the example of Peter Theil that the Christian philosophy of Renesmee rhade enabled that shop to have an advantage over others. They were able to set aside rivalry, what Gerard would call mimetic rivalry and ambition, and get through the tech burst at a time when others couldn’t get through the tech bearse because instead of trying to make their enemy lose, they tried to actually do something. So they had a positive goal and their goal was not mainly. [00:36:36][34.9]

[00:36:36] This is something Peter likes to say. You know, the goal is not to disrupt. The goal is to provide a good or a service in a profitable way. Now, if it disrupts, all right, so be it. You know, that’s in God’s providence. So I think if Christians start to follow the example of Jesus, I’m really key into Jesus. I don’t mean the word Jesus. I don’t mean say the name Jesus. And then recall all the sermons you’ve heard about Jesus where people hung their best thinking on that. You know, Jesus says Gandhi or Jesus as Che or Jesus as Confucius. Wait. We got all these Jesuses of our own making. I mean, actually reading the gospels carefully and just kind of get Jesus in your gut. I mean, that’s literally what we do in our Eucharist, right? I mean, theoretically or whatever, symbolically different conversation, but just begin to just think like Jesus and you will be a better entrepreneur because he was the most successful. I don’t want to, like degrade him by saying he’s much more. But he was he invested everything and he won everything. And entrepreneurs, in some sense, I don’t want to do the Jesus CEO thing because Jesus is bigger than any business enterprise. But risking, loving, risking, serving, being willing to lose it all is not something that Christians should maybe be skeptical about. It’s in the very nature of the Christian walk. And if we do that, we will in general be better entrepreneurs will be less afraid because we don’t love money and don’t worship it. We’re more able to risk it. [00:38:04][88.1]

William: [00:38:08] That’s a good word. And as we do come to a wrap, the center said, I would love to find out a little bit about where God has you. So you’ve taken us through an amazing journey of God, Scripture and his lessons. What does he have you chewing on right now? That maybe would be fun for our listeners to hear about. Oh, you mean like with a day job rather than this sort of thing, like the quantitative analysis kind of thing? Yeah. Well, or just in God’s word, right. I mean, something else that he’s kind of put on your heart, you spent so much time in Genesis, you got a book coming out just. Is there anything else that’s coming alive in a new way, maybe in your daily devotionals? [00:38:40][32.5]

Jerry: [00:38:42] Well, I’m continuing to find new stuff in Genesis that would kind of take a while to get us to the point where he could talk about it and certainly more and more about what we see with Jesus in the Gospels and how he’s interacting along economic lines and all of the rest of it. I mean, he really, really all the treasures of the wisdom of God were hidden in Jesus. And if we’d stop skimming over the details, the details matter, place names matter. It matters that Jesus was killed in Jerusalem, not Rome. It matters that Jesus ascended from Bethany, the house of the poor. And, you know, not from Jerusalem. It matters that he was born in Bethlehem. Not Jerusalem. The story of Jesus. If we really believe in the incarnation, we believe that all of the story of Jesus is for us. And what you’re going to find is every time he’s in a city and every time the Bible tells us the name of the city. And then you compare that to Jesus’s commentary there about wealth or about anything else. Jesus knew where he was. He wasn’t giving the standard stump speech or if he was, he was varying it from place to place. You know, you’ve got the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew. But then you have the sermon on the plane and Luke. And they’re different from one another. Right. So scholars say, oh, it’s a contradiction. Sermon on the plane is given to a Judean audience, much harder on wealth. All of these little details matter. And we’re so used to reading them spiritually, we skip right to spiritual. But Jesus didn’t come as a spirit. He came in flesh and blood. So we can’t skip just the spirit and skip over all the flesh and blood stuff we see Jesus doing. And, you know, we could spend hours and hours talking about how those details matter. But let me just convince you now, all of those details matter. There’s no unimportant parts of the gospels. And if something Jesus says doesn’t make sense to you. Or it’s weird to you as it is to me, the Bible isn’t weird. I’m weird. And the Bible will make sense to me when I stop being weird. And so we have to adjust our way of thinking to the Bible’s rather than our own. And please stop taking our best thinking. And sometimes it’s really good thinking and try to find a verse to hang it on rather than look at the context of the verse and let God give us his best thinking man. [00:40:52][130.6]

Henry: [00:40:53] So that’s very helpful. A big takeaway for me and hopefully the investors that are listening is how important it is that we don’t have the primary way that we engage in God’s word through somebody else who goes ahead, puts her own spin on it. One of the things that you’ve told me is that you don’t want it, not that you don’t listen to sermons in other pastors. I’m sure you do. And yet you wanted to go ahead and spend time in God’s word and you wanted to do it in the language in which was written and going in and asking God to speak to you through his word without being necessarily influenced by the questions of the day, whether it’s science. And we would have that one hundred years ago, or whether it’s negative screens now as a feature of an investor. [00:41:30][37.9]

Jerry: [00:41:31] Right. And let me make this clear. It’s not that I’m reading it alone, but what do I read? I read Josephus and others from Jesus’s time. I read the Roman historians. I read the rabbis at the time. If so, I don’t want to get stuck in modern evangelic. Sure I listen evangelical sermons, but I already think like an evangelical because I’ve been in evangelical for 35 years. I need to learn to think like a first century Jew. And that’s what we all need to start doing it for real. And once you do that, you will be amazed at how the storehouse, you know, how the treasure house, the thestories opens up to you. [00:42:03][31.7]

Henry: [00:42:03] There’s a book in there. There’s a podcast in there thinking like a first century Jew. I love that I would subscribe. There’s no doubt about it. We got a taste of it today on the podcast. I think it’s going to make us think differently about investing. I do absolutely know that. Jerry, I want to have you back. [00:42:17][13.8]

[00:42:17] I’m grateful for the time you spent with us. And yeah, I’m grateful. [00:42:20][2.9]

Jerry: [00:42:21] I’m grateful for you and for your mission and for what you’re doing in the world and as being a leader in this space. [00:42:21][0.0]

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