Sue Warkne: I think the reason this has sprung up so much in Silicon Valley is Silicon Valley is such a home of diversity and equity and equality that, you know, when you say things like bring your full, authentic self to work, we are an inclusive company. We care about diversity. You then have to ask the question, well, what if faith is my primary identifier? Can I bring my full, authentic self to work? And you have to answer that our executives, our leaders in Silicon Valley have to have an answer to that.

Henry Kaestner: All right, welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m here with my co-host, William Norvell. William, good morning.

William Norvell: It’s a good morning here, moving into the afternoon, but it’s still pretty good indeed.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, actually, yes, it is the afternoon. And, you know, our listeners don’t care what time of day it is. They really do. But they do care about our host today, Sue Warnke. Sue, welcome.

Sue Warkne: Thank you. Nice to be here.

Henry Kaestner: So this is a big deal for us because we’re going to be talking about a topic that’s near and dear to my heart. And just to set the stage a little bit. I am well, at least in my mind, a little bit semi famous for going out on the road, leaving my home here in Northern California and talking about faith and entrepreneurship and faith and investing. And and a couple of years ago, back when we could travel, I would go around and be in Atlanta, I’d be in Nashville or in Dallas. And I’d be saying, where do you think is the Center for the Faith and Work Movement in the United States? And if I was in Nashville, they’d say Atlanta. If I was in Atlanta, maybe they’d say Nashville or they’d say Dallas. If I was in Dallas, as you know, they would say Dallas. Right. Because it’s all about Dallas and Begbie. But I would say in each case, no, I will submit to you that the Center for the Faith and Work Movement in the United States is actually in Silicon Valley, where there are new or resurgent faith in the work groups at Google and Facebook, at Apple, at Intuit, at Dropbox and at Salesforce. They have something called faith force. And most people’s jaws drop. And I think it’s really an important development. And here’s why I want to tell you why I think this episode is important and then hopefully we’ll cover it again at the end. I think that this is important because this is a podcast is focused on Faith Driven Investor. And when we come to understand that corporate America and some of the what would be thought of is the largest secular corporations in America and some of the most secular cities in America have embraced the role that faith plays in their corporate cultures. That has relevance, I think, for every business everywhere. So if your business in Kenosha, Wisconsin, or Albemarle, Virginia, and you think, well, I can’t really encourage a bunch of Christians getting together and maybe praying together or folks that are from a Muslim faith getting together and celebrating Ramadan or something like that together, there is some great precedent. And as Christians and this is a podcast is focused on followers of Jesus Christ, there’s great precedent for this working well and in a respectful atmosphere, letting truth stand out in the marketplace of ideas. So for those of you who are on boards or investors, there’s an opportunity to be able to point to some of these illustrations and maybe ask if it’s appropriate the company that you are an investor in or that you sit on the board on. So today we can understand more about that through the life and the career of a really neat woman named Sue Warnke, who has been a leader at Faith for us at Salesforce, one of the most technologically advanced and progressive, at least in terms of the products and services that they provide companies in the world. Sue, thank you for being with us. One of the things we really want to be able to do before we get into this topic is understand a little bit about your background. I know a bit about it. It’s very interesting to me. And you were a little bit different than maybe some of the other guests that we’ve had on. And that is that, like me, you’re an adult convert to the Christian faith. What’s that all about?

Sue Warkne: So I grew up in Utah in a really religious environment and we were not religious. So I was sort of two things came out of that. And one way I was an outsider and the other way I was the target of evangelism. The whole town, it felt like I wanted to convert my family. So I built a big wall against faith throughout my life. And, you know, I was very anti faith, actually, and pursued other gods, I would say the gods of accomplishment and success. And that works really well, actually. And I got, you know, a great career at Salesforce. And I have a wonderful husband and I have three teenagers right now and sort of had everything. But several years ago, about six years ago, I felt a void. I really did feel that void like, well, what else is there and am I really on the right path? And I felt like I was supposed to do something more meaningful. So I ended up quitting my job and pursued a new role in leadership development, which was very meaningful, but didn’t at all fill the void. And then something very important happened, which was that I fell flat on my face in this new job. So I failed. Worse than you can really fail on a job because I had to sell some of the classes that I was teaching and I was terrible at it. I think I hit one percent of my quota, so I just wasn’t used to failing. So that was a big deal. And my son has some health problems. So, you know, I faced kind of the end of myself, the end of my ability to fix that. And luckily, obviously a very blessed way things came into my life one by one, whether it was a song or music or somebody randomly praying for me that led me to Jesus to a really surprising conversion. To Christianity about four years ago.

Henry Kaestner: Wow, so tell us a little bit more about what that was like, because you have at that point time, you have a husband, you have kids, and all of a sudden their mom is saying, actually, I think that the whole purpose of life is a bit different than we had thought. How did they receive that? How did your friends and coworkers receive that?

Sue Warkne: Yeah, I mean, it was quite a shock because I wasn’t just agnostic. I mean, I was really antireligious most of my life and kind of known for that. I was the person in college that would send articles to my friends arguing against religion. So it was really shocking to my family for sure. I mean, one day their mom becomes a born again Christian after telling them that nobody really knows the truth. It’s all good, you know, believe whatever you want. So that was difficult for a few months. You know, we had a lot of interesting conversations in my household, but my husband is wonderful and supportive and they’ve all kind of watched me go through this process and start talking about it and watched the effect that it’s had on other people, including faith force, which we’re going to get into, including just a lot of people benefiting from me telling this very surprising story. And so they’re very proud of me. They’re very supportive and proud and kind of on their own faith journeys.

Henry Kaestner: Gotcha. OK, very cool. OK, so Faith Four starts at about the same time. Yeah. I mean maybe, maybe, maybe not. But I think it from my memory, it starts about the same time that you came to face off four years ago or so. Yeah. Is that related.

Sue Warkne: Definitely. So, you know, I converted to Christianity, I was baptized and, you know, several things improved in my life. I definitely had a purpose. Relationships got healed. And very quickly, I got an offer to come back to Salesforce. And with that offer, I knew that I was coming back for a purpose. It wasn’t just to do my job, but it was really to be a person of faith in this environment and just follow whatever God wanted me to do, which was really scary. I mean, not just coming out to my family about this, but my whole work family that knew me for seven years. And so I had to figure out, well, what does it mean to be a person of faith in this environment? Can you be. And so what I did is I started to search other comments internally on our message board. Is there anybody out there talking about faith? And I found two things. One is a couple, other just very few. It started with one other Christian and we found each other and we set up a time to pray, which was just incredible because I realized in that moment I OK, I can have both. I don’t exactly know how, but I can have both. Nothing terrible happened. We prayed and it was, you know, a really good moment. And then that group turned into five people and then ten and then two hundred and then five hundred. So definitely Christians had a home at Salesforce. But that felt to me, not the whole story. It felt that God was definitely pulling people out of hiding. But the bigger story was really transforming how this company operates and how faith in general is perceived as an element of identity. So we found other faiths, Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus and a group of people proposed this new group about the same time. So, yes, we can have prayer groups, but that’s not everything. Let’s actually talk to the leadership and say, you know, is this could this be an employee resource group the same as any other employer resource group?

Henry Kaestner: So it’s all fascinating. OK, so as you go ahead and you put this together and you think about making this an employee resource group, do two things. No. One, tell us what an employee resource group is. That’s going to be a term that some people aren’t going to know what that means, what that stands for. And then also, as you formed that, what’s your hope for people that are part of the Force Employee Resource Group?

Sue Warkne: Yeah, so I came in so a couple trailblazers had already started the process, so I came in after them. But an employee resource group, it is what it says. It’s to provide resources to employees on different topics. So there’s usually most companies have a women’s group and a black employee group, an LGBTQ group. So it’s a place where you can feel safe and share resources, have community, but a lot more than that. It’s to share resources out to the rest of the company about your group. So, for example, right now with, you know, racial tension being so high, we have some of our more racial focused employee resource groups. We have a black employee resource group and a Latino group and Asian-American groups. They’re sharing resources with the rest of the company about how this is impacting them, how to talk to them, how to support them. And similarly, faith for us. We share resources out when it’s holidays, when we say this is how you can greet your employees this month for, you know, if you have Muslim employees, if you have Sikh employees, when there is a tragic attack on people of faith like Sri Lanka or Christchurch, we come together to mourn and to talk about the impact of this on employees. So it’s almost. Chaplain, like in a way that it’s a service, a group of people that know how to talk about faith effectively in the workplace and serve both the community and those who are outside of the community within the company.

William Norvell: So thank you so much. So good to see you again. Yeah. Everybody might think we know all of our guests. Sometimes we do. Sometimes we don’t. But I’ve gotten the chance to get to know, Sue and see her talk on this topic at length. And I mean, I guess I’m just inspired by some of the way, you know, you went really and have to go really deep on this is not a side project or a group you put together, you know, on the edge. Right. I mean, you’ve flooded it in amazing ways. And the scale is something that I’m just consistently just surprised by. I mean, when we talk about equality groups, Salesforce, as you might know the number, I mean, tens of thousands of employees. Right. How does the equality groups work? How many people are involved in them? And then maybe four specifically just to give our listeners a vantage point.

Sue Warkne: Yeah. So we do have about sixty thousand employees. About half of the employees are involved in at least one employee resource group. Faithfulness to everybody’s surprise, once it launched about three and a half years ago, became the fastest growing employee resource group in company history. So it is right now about thirty two hundred employees in 20 different cities all around the world, from Israel to Mexico to Australia, Singapore. So it’s become a huge rallying point for Salesforce and it is quite big.

William Norvell: Wow, that’s amazing. Over five percent of the workforce, I mean, just in looking for an outlet, looking for people who can understand who they are at a deeper level, that’s just fascinating.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, people usually will align with inequality. We call them equality groups that represent their number one or number two identifiers. So to be part of faith us, it probably means that faith in some way is probably the number one way that you would define yourself over gender, over race, over other aspects of your identity. And there is a big population for whom that is a reality.

William Norvell: And I know you’ve spoken at national conferences and things like that, you know, talking about this, talking about faith force. How come, you know, Henry made the pitch earlier that Silicon Valley is the leader. Is that because we live here and we happen to know people that work at those organizations that tell us about them? Or are these quite common in organizations around the country? Are they growing or are they declining? Tell us a little bit of the landscape of what’s happening in the world.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, I think they are quite common. I lean on the research of Brian Graham of the Religious Freedom and Business Foundation. He has the preeminent research there, which shows 20 percent of Fortune 500 companies do have an official faith presence, meaning their public website talks about faith, inclusion and faith diversity. So that could be pretty shocking to folks that 20 percent of Fortune 500. So there is some kind of presence. And of the other 80 percent, there’s probably secret groups that are meeting for prayer and Bible study and fellowship. So it is quite common. I think the reason this has sprung up so much in Silicon Valley is Silicon Valley is such a home of diversity and equity and equality that, you know, when you say things like bring your full, authentic self to work, we are an inclusive company. We care about diversity. You then have to ask the question, well, what if faith is my primary identifier? Can I bring my full, authentic self to work? And you have to answer that our executives, our leaders in Silicon Valley have to have an answer to that. And anything other than absolutely is potentially discriminatory. It is marginalizing. So I think these companies have really, you know, built up this value of equality so much that they’ve really had to say, well, what about this aspect of identity? And luckily, they have stepped to the plate and opened the door to it.

William Norvell: Now, it’s really interesting. And, you know, it’s funny because. Right. I mean, the old classic saying don’t talk about religion and politics at work. Right. But with that, I’m interested. How have you seen it impact the lives of people? You know, we love stories here. Do you have a story or two that you could share with us on the lives of employees and how? You know, I would imagine it makes them better human beings, but also better workers and feel more part of an organization that they work for.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, I’ll share a quick one about a Christian man and then another one about a Muslim man. So Christian man. So when we first had the Christian prayer groups and that was just starting, you know, this man joined on Zoome and he just had this look of shock on his face. And I noticed he was tearing up and I said, what’s that about? And he said he was an older man. And he said, I have wanted this for twenty years. I have just wanted to pray, you know, and it just meant so much to him. He’d wished for this. He had feared he would never be able to kind of integrate these two lives. So it just. Gave him the sense of belonging, of peace, of kind of reconciliation. The stress lifted off of him. But an even more important example of that is this Muslim man I’ll tell you about. And I think it’s good for Christians to know to what our brothers and sisters of other faiths are going through as well, not just thinking about what it’s like to be a Christian in these environments, but this man, he’s an engineer and he was looking tired. And so his manager said, you know, what’s going on? And he looked down and the manager, you know, said, it’s OK, you can tell me. And he mumbled under his breath, I’m fasting for Ramadan. And the manager said something very important. And he said, Oh, tell me more about that. And the man looked up and he said, well, I’m fasting from sunup to sundown for the purpose of gaining compassion for those in need, which blew the manager away. He didn’t know about Ramadan and he said something even more important, which was, how can I support you? That one question changed this man’s life. This thing that he thought he had to hide his entire career was something that not only was OK and safe, but something that the manager cared about and even wanted to support. This engineer went back and the manager encouraged him to teach people about Ramadan. He taught his team about Ramadan. Some people fasted with him. We kind of just celebrated with him. They came together to celebrate Eid at the end of it all together, this engineer brags about his manager. He is doing fantastic. He recruits people, says this is the best place to work. I’ve had employees come up to me in the old days when we were in person and say, faith first is why I’m here. I heard people talk about faith force and I didn’t feel safe to pray at my company. So I left and I came here. We have top talent that are not only staying, but they are recruiting their friends because of faith for. So it is a huge business impact. It’s a morale impact to feel safe and seen and then it’s a business impact to be able to keep top talent and recruit their friends.

William Norvell: OK, you just set up the next question without knowing it. Or maybe, you know, maybe you just sensed it. Maybe that was the spirit working from an investor standpoint. Right. Is this something people should be looking forward to? Would you make an argument that this leads to greater employee retention, therefore more productive workers, therefore a better overall? I’m not saying you have to make that argument, but how would you think about that from an investor standpoint?

Sue Warkne: I definitely think so. I mean, it has had a very big business impact. I mentioned the recruiting and the retention and the productivity of just feeling safe. But there’s other things there are. You think of innovation. So I think of Nike. Nike innovated recently with Nike hejab for the Muslim community, which just took off. You know, that came out of realizing that faith identities matter. We at Salesforce support tons of nonprofits, including many, many who are Christian nonprofits, you know, that go out in disaster relief or anti sex trafficking. And they use Salesforce to track fundraising churches, huge churches use Salesforce to track, you know, their messaging out to their congregation. And we learn from that. Salesforce learns from that and improves the way that we service nonprofits because of churches and because of Christian nonprofits. So innovation is another aspect. And then, you know, our customers are Christian. As I mentioned, we have lots of Christian customers and they’re expecting that the company that they are paying to service them is faith tolerant. They expect that and they fear when that isn’t the case. So it’s not only a benefit to the company and the employees and the products that they sell, but it really does build trust with customers when they can see, OK, this is a faith friendly company.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so I’m going to voice something that’s probably in the back of a lot of our listeners minds. Again, we have a vast majority Christian audience, as you might imagine. And I think that some number of people are probably thinking, gosh, it seems strange if I’m driven by my faith as an investor or I know that the entrepreneur, the CEO, is driven by their Christian faith to be able to celebrate Ramadan and to be able to lift up different religions makes me feel a little strange. And so, therefore, I think I’m maybe I’m getting the fact that that can lead to employee retention, but the orthodoxy of my faith is in conflict and, you know, what does it look like? And so what I want to ask you is and I’ve never used this term before, but what does it look like to bring together faiths which have mutually exclusive, exclusive faith claims and worldviews? And part of us there’s a dissonance there, which is, gosh, how can you do that? Aren’t you going ahead and necessarily injecting conflict in? And then if you’re a Christian and you believe that there is the way, the truth and the life, how do you celebrate some? As somebody else who clearly doesn’t believe that and would love to convince somebody else to their way of thinking, I think that not being able to overcome that dissonance is what is holding back lots of people. How do you because you’ve identified yourself as a born again Christian. How do you persevere through that? How do you think through that?

Sue Warkne: Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics because I don’t come from a church background. To me, this is no big deal. Like, of course, you can talk to anybody and you know, but but when I talk to people that come from a more church background, they do feel a lot of worry and fear. And I understand it. I totally get it. I mean, I have poured myself through the Bible and through God’s word, and it’s very clear what we are to do and not do. And we’re not to worship other gods and we are not to worship idols. And anything of that nature is serious. And I believe that. So, you know, how could I, for example, go celebrate Eid or celebrate, you know, a pagan holiday or something like Beltane is coming up for me first. So I have really clear guidelines. I just have very super clear policies and guidelines. And same with faith for Sophie, Force does three things we give back. We do tons of volunteering events, helping the homeless. Every faith agrees and helping those in need refugees, et cetera. So we give back. We do celebrate holidays and I’ll explain how we do and do not do those. And we educate. So we teach managers about, you know, what holidays mean. Don’t say happy Yom Kippur, for example, because that’s a somber holiday, you know, in the old days, don’t have a big buffet party. When you have team members who are fasting, you know, we educate. But the celebration piece is the part that people are afraid of because they don’t want to cross the line and offend God. And so we say within that celebration, in my mind, if I’m not worshiping other gods or praying to other gods in those celebrations, then I think it’s a great way to have faith conversations. So going and partaking in a meal for Eid, you know, and learning about their culture, learning about, you know, my Muslim colleagues is a wonderful way, I think, to show them love, to show that maybe their perception of Christianity isn’t accurate. And a quick story of that. When I first got my very first budget of faith, it was an official thing. A Muslim man set up time with me and he said very quietly, he said, see, I’ve been trying to have an Eid celebration for three years and keep getting turned down. Do you think I could have just a little bit of your budget? And I looked at him and this just outpouring of love came out of me and I said, you can have it all. And he looked at me shocked and he said he said, Why? Because he knew as a Christian I was out, you know, and proud. And he said, why would you do that? And I said, Because I love you. Because of my faith. I love you and I want to support you. And we had the biggest celebration ever. It was like hundreds of people came through and it was this coming together. And the comment was, wow, that’s not what I thought Christianity was like. So it is an enormous opportunity to destigmatize Christianity and to heal wounds. It’s not about worshiping Allah or other gods. It’s about loving our neighbor. And what better way than to just talk to them and see them and listen to them? It’s not following their text. It’s just loving them.

Henry Kaestner: OK, that’s fascinating. So I want to get a little bit and I think that you’re right, by the way, it’s not just fascinating and I personally disagree with you. I think that I think that we’re called to love our neighbor. And of course, in the Bible, Jesus mentions the parable, the Good Samaritan, which is somebody from a different nation and different faith tradition, was the one that was ultimately used to illustrate what it looks like to love your neighbor. And so, as your heart is, what does it look like for me to love somebody? Because as I understand it, from what you’re seeing, as you’re trying to overcome some perceptions about where Christians are thought of, particularly in this environment which you are at in Silicon Valley, in San Francisco, oftentimes from having lived out here, Christians are thought of as being judgmental. And, you know, judge, not lest you be judged. There are some different aspects of let them know you buy your love. Right. And so you’re leaning into that in a way that seems to be super winsome and it’s very, very compelling. There are different ways, though, to set up employee resource groups. One is the way that you all have done it. And presumably there are also other companies that say, well, we’re going to have a Christian employee resource group and we have a Jewish one and a Muslim one. And so there’s not going to be as much of an intermingling. And presumably you miss some of that opportunity to have some of the activities you’re talking about. So there are probably pros and cons of each. But can you walk us through some of the different models you’ve seen? And then if you’re an investor listening as podcast, how you might coach them or suggest them that they introduce this to the. Company they sit on the board of or invest in.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, there are multiple, though you touched on the main two of like separate groups or an interfaith group with faith force and other companies that are interfaith. They still have siloed groups because in those groups you do specific things that wouldn’t be appropriate at the interfaith level. So prayer and Bible study, we still have a Christians at Salesforce group and it’s still hundreds of people and they meet for prayer and Bible study. That doesn’t happen at Faith Force and Muslims, Muslims at Salesforce go and pray together at certain times of the day. That’s not a faith force activity. So prayer, worship, scriptural reading happens in those siloed groups intentionally because that is really where worship is happening. And there’s a couple of reasons. I think the interfaith model is more successful and truly most companies are turning toward it. So a lot of companies, they started with the more siloed groups and they are now creating interfaith kind of umbrella’s over that. It’s much more palatable to HRR to go to them and talk about the term faith, diversity, faith, inclusion. That is something that matches their other language of equality and inclusion. So it’s a much easier sell and you avoid a lot of conflict. So with the siloed groups, you can imagine there’s a couple of things. One is potential competition like, oh, well, how much budget did the Jewish group get? Did we get the same amount of budget? And what about a very small group? You know, like Shenzhen is a faith group, right. I mean, this might be five people. Do they get budget? What about the 12 other potential religions, world views that might pop up that would have a right to that budget as well, including a satanic group, which does happen, including, you know, an atheist group or all these different groups? It’s a lot of pressure for an H.R. organization to have to say yes to siloed groups because it’s unknown what’s going to come at them in the future. Are there 20 other, you know, the Spaghetti Monster group that’s going to expect budget as well. So make it easy on them and suggest this interfaith model and feel peace that you’re not advocating other gods. You’re not lifting up something you don’t find truthful. You’re simply opening up a way to have conversation and celebration. And by the way, the fact that we organize these events together is what leads to just the most incredible breakthrough conversations. Right? Because I meet somebody at an event or another event, a SUKA event first and have incredible conversations that lead to more conversations that lead to hopefully them seeing a glimpse of Jesus Amen, amen.

William Norvell: I hate to come to a close, but that’s what we have to do. Now, I’ve got a feeling we’re going to get a lot of questions on this one. So we might have to we might have to have you back. I just think this is such a pertinent topic. I think every company can consider can think through whether, you know, this fits them and fits their employee group. And just so grateful for you taking the time to walk through how you’ve seen it work and some of the different ways to go about it. As we do come to a close, one of the things we love to do is try to figure out a way that God’s word and his scripture can transcend our guest and our listeners lives. And so what we always love to ask at the end is, is there anything that God has placed on your heart through his word lately, whether it’s in the season, whether it could be this morning, whether it could be something you meditated on your whole life, but just maybe something that you feel the spirit is telling you to share with our audience, we’d be grateful. Mm.

Sue Warkne: Yeah. I’ve been very meditative the past month about what am I supposed to do now. My faith force is a success. Do they really need me at the helm anymore. I don’t feel that they do. I feel like God is redirecting me somewhere else and so I’m just trying to be really attentive to that. So the image I keep getting in my daily reading is about settlements. I have a quote here have twice actually on my way. So this is from Solms. So faithfulness springs forth from the earth and righteousness looks down from heaven. The Lord will indeed give what is good and our land will yield its harvest. So I feel like this year is all about building roots and being planted and seeing what fruit comes from that, you know, faith forces and success. Let’s be ready for what’s next.

David Batstone: Like I thought, look, I was at the end of a river pulling bodies out as they were drowning and flailing, and that’s compassion and something is very important. Part of my spiritual journey is to practice compassion, but at the same time is wisdom, and that is to look upstream and say, well, how are these bodies falling in? Like, what are the systems and what are the people, the demand behind it? How do we solve the problem there?

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We’ve got a special guest today, David Batstone is in the House talking about the ministry that he started with regards to human trafficking. And, David, it’s great to have you on the program. Thank you very much for being here.

David Batstone: It’s a real pleasure to talk to some brothers about my heart.

Henry Kaestner: So there’s so much to talk about with what is on your heart. And I want to get into that, provide our listeners a context about the industry and the problem that you’re looking to solve and how you as an entrepreneur have gone about solving that problem. But before we do that, love to start our show every time by asking our guests who they are, where they come from, what their faith journey has been, and really bring us up to that moment in your life when all of a sudden this became a big, big deal for us. So what is it like growing up brings up to speed?

David Batstone: Well, you know, I grew up in the Midwest and I grew up in a evangelical background, the Plymouth brother. And maybe some people who are listening are familiar with the Plymouth Brethren. But it’s a small community that very much values the scripture and looked for ways to implement it in the life of the church and in the community around. And I went I went to Westmont College, which is a Christian evangelical school. And in Santa Barbara. Really? Really. Yeah. And I went on to get an objective and studied theology and have a Ph.D. in theology. And so, you know, today I’m a venture capitalist and teach business at the University of San Francisco. I don’t know if I’m probably the only business professor in entrepreneurship that has a Ph.D. in theology.

Henry Kaestner: Then you may be the only one. The only one I know Rusty.

Rusty Rueff: I don’t know any others either. So whether or not that you’re the only one, we’re going to give it to you today. You got that badge, you know.

David Batstone: Yeah, a dash. My dreams. I had one thing I stand up for.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so tell us I want you to take us back to the restaurant that you used to frequent that you later found out was a center of human trafficking. So this is a restaurant, the United States, correct?

David Batstone: Yeah, it’s in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I was a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley at the time, and I was also a professor teaching University of San Francisco. So it wasn’t like I was looking for another gig, Henry. I mean, you know, my life was full and it was just a shock to learn that my favorite restaurant I would go to regularly. You know, I love the Italys and Poppadoms and Teriyaki Chicken. Yeah, but I learned that this restaurant had trafficked young girls from the ages of 14 to 19, over 500 young girls. Oh, my goodness. Into the San Francisco Bay Area for the purpose of forced labor. First in this restaurant, they were being forced to work against their will and then they’d be taken out the brothels and fruit and vegetable fields in California. I didn’t discover it and that was part of my journey. The trafficker kept these young girls and fifteen to twenty in an apartment and there was a natural gas leak that killed one girl and injured others. And when the police showed up, they said, we need to get you away from the gas and we’re more worried about him and pointed to the trafficker. And so front page of my newspaper, I read it and I’ve been going to this place for years. And I was like, how could I not see this? How could have been blind to it? And it’s really funny how, you know, when we often say we pray that God would give us some wisdom or teach us a path or open a door. And I could have changed my philosophy on this because I think God is always putting things in front of us. It’s how we respond to those things. That’s how it builds our character, the way we respond to things that God puts in front of us. It’s not like we need to somehow go out and find it. It’s there. And I can’t tell you why. That was a defining moment of my life. I had to do something about it because I’m sure many other people went to that restaurant. I said, well, that’s a very bizarre experience. But for me, it was a calling. I had to respond to it.

Henry Kaestner: That’s incredible, the size and scope, and it’s just right there, I think that when we think about human trafficking, we think that, yes, we’ve heard about girls coming from Nepal or India, but we generally think that they I don’t know, they go to Amsterdam or they go to some other places. It’s far from us. But that many girls, it’s not two or three or 500 through a restaurant in San Francisco. Reasonably civilized city. That’s incredible.

David Batstone: I’m shocking. So I should call in other people that, you know, if you heard of this and some friends in L.A. said, well, yeah, we just had a sewing factory in East Los Angeles where 112 girls from Thailand were imprisoned and forced to sew clothes every day. And they would then be locked into rooms in the same facility where they were sewing clothes. And then I called friends in the Texas area, Houston and Dallas, and they would tell me of these bars or cantinas where young girls would be lined up with a numbers printed on their chest and a man would come to get a beer and then point to number 30 for who he wanted to buy for a night or weaker. And it was just, you know, just so shocking to me that this was a part of, you know, my country and my reality that I felt like, OK, I need to really understand this. So I took a leave of absence from my university and my venture capital bank. And I went around the world for a year, follow the money. I went from San Francisco to Bangalore and went from Los Angeles to Thailand. I went from Houston and Dallas to Peru and Guatemala. So, you know, basically follow the money to understand this trade in people.

Henry Kaestner: So I was going to ask you, so you’re an entrepreneur, you’ve been a venture capital. You understand it. Entrepreneurs solve problems. You see that there’s clearly a problem. But instead of doing something right away, you say, I want to fully understand the problem, let’s follow the money. So what an incredible adventure that must have been. Oh, you know, I wish that there’s a documentary filmmaker along with you as you kind of leave San Francisco in this restaurant and then you go to Bangalore and you’re in the back alleyways. So you spent a year trying to understand the problem, following the money. And at some point in time, you’re like, I got it. There’s a big problem. I think I have a sense about how I might address it. What was that?

David Batstone: It’s funny how we have an accepted paradigm of how you approach a concern, whether it’s social, environmental. And I’m sure everyone listening today has something that they really care about, whether it’s malaria or global warming or extreme poverty. So it’s very funny, though, that many of us, when we attempt to address these problems, we open our heart and we shut down our brain. At least that’s what I did, because here I was a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley. And when I confronted with this problem of trafficking, you know, over 40 million individuals living in some form of forced bondage or slavery, what I did is I started a bad business model called a nonprofit, a charity. And now I do want to clarify, I don’t think charities are all bad or wrong or they’re foolish, but they are not sustainable and they’re not scalable. And if you really want to address a problem of the magnitude we’re talking about, you need to develop a business model that has the scalability to it to actually solve the problem. So what I did is I set up a nonprofit and we would go to churches and rotary clubs and schools and, you know, we get donations and then we build a shelter. And I mean, we were good at it. It was fine. It was great. But it was small and it was very difficult to build something that would actually, I believe, solve the problem.

Rusty Rueff: But you did find a way to release the talents that God had given you. And one of the things I find fascinating about your story, and I think it should be enlightening to all entrepreneurs. And I remember, you know, we were much younger than when you wrote Not for Sale, when you and I first met years and years ago in San Francisco. But I was impressed then and I’m still impressed now that you not only had the heart for it, but as you started to allude and get into. You also had some skills, some talents that you’d been given that all you needed to do was sort of look inside of yourself and say, wait a minute, I can do something with this. And you had these journalism skills. That you uncovered, so take us through that and then take us into, you know, what you ended up doing with those writing skills.

David Batstone: I appreciate that, Rusty, because it is I think many people listening. They say, well, how could I do? I like to do something more meaningful. I’d love to be involved and say works that that would bring about a benefit for the world. And oftentimes they don’t think about, well, what do I know best and who do I know best and what would be the process I would follow. And I guess I started to look at the fact that in Silicon Valley, if I wanted to build an enterprise, what I do is I’d find the best capital, the best talent and cutting edge technology. And I would build a company based on that that would be profitable and would reach internationally. And in the case I said, well, what if I took those same skills, that same kind of formula, and I applied it to human trafficking? And the first thing to do is bring together the best talent, so I got 50 people who, you know, the smartest people I knew, the most successful, you know, the founder of Twitter was one of them. I got the founder of the largest health care online company. I got a you got a baseball player for the San Francisco Giants, like people who are successful. And I said, look, help me come up with a business model or a business plan for a very specific situation. And this situation is in the Amazon of Peru, my nonprofit not for sale. We build a shelter for young kids coming from native or indigenous communities in the Amazon. They’re being trafficked into Lima. Help us come up with a business model. So we had a 24 hour period where we brainstormed and had a competition. The winning idea was to start a company that would source the wonderful assets or ingredients that come out of the Amazon. These super herbs like Mocha Mocha suddenly pay a fair wage, create an economic platform that would provide long term security for the native communities, put into a beverage, sell it in mainstream grocery stores and return profits back to those communities. It’s a wonderful, beautiful idea. Unless you’re the guy on Monday morning that now has to start this company, that’s a beverage. Right. And I knew nothing about beverage. And so, again, I thought, OK, what would I do if I was in Silicon Valley now? What would I do if I was just another charity? Well, I go and find the best beverage maker in the world who could use these herbs and put them into the beverage and make a wonderful product. And that’s what I did. I just found the best beverage maker in the world, hired them, paid them what Coca-Cola would have paid him. I didn’t pay them a nonprofit salary in equity in the company. And, you know, fast forward six years. We are now the number one health beverage in America. Rebel groups extract Barberi leaves rebel, and we have now returned over a million dollars back to those communities through our profit sharing. We’re sourcing ingredients in three countries now and we choose the ingredient based on the most impact, not the cheapest ingredient. But where will we have the most impact on poor communities? So over 30000 families, one hundred twenty thousand people, more or less, are being empowered in poor, rural, exploited communities. So to me, this was like a revelation. It’s taking the same principles and mission that I had a nonprofit, but embedding the DNA into a enterprise, a for profit enterprise.

Rusty Rueff: Well, I got to give you a plug, because unless I’m wrong, Serena Williams is on your side, right, with Rebel, right. I see her on television all the time.

David Batstone: We got we’re fortunate. We have so many. Rubirosa is a great actress. She’s a bit one of our big ambassadors, Michael Franti, who’s a musician. So we get a lot of actually actors, musicians, artists who come to us and say, is there any way I could be an ambassador for your brand? And that’s the great thing about, you know, doing well by doing good. People want to be a part of it.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s awesome. So it reminds me of and we all know the story of Esther did write in the book of Esther. And Mordechai says to her, you know, is it that you’ve been called for such a time just as this? Do you feel like God specifically prepared and equipped you to make the headway into this sort of massive, let’s call it a massive force of evil in this world? Did you have that Esther moment?

David Batstone: Oh, very much so. You know, coming out of that experience of understanding that in my own backyard was this trafficking of hundreds of young girls from Bangalore. I just could not walk away. It was a calling. And to have walked away would have meant for me a betrayal of a character that I was being called to fill. And, you know, I suppose even today, now, 15 years later, people ask me, well, gosh, know, aren’t you just being overwhelmed by this evil or by the enormity of the problem? And I say, you know, for whatever reason, I’m more inspired by what we do achieve and the people we can rescue and save and the empowerment that does happen, that inspires me more than the enormity of what we haven’t done. And I think once you’re on that calling, then your inspiration comes through your daily walk and not through some kind of expectation of how much of it you’re going to solve.

Rusty Rueff: So I’m going to encourage everybody to jump on Amazon and go back and get that book not for sale, because it tells your story and it tells the story of the beginnings of what you tried to conquer. If you were writing an epilog or a new chapter for not for sale, what would it say right now?

David Batstone: I would say I’d say it’s the art of being a rebel and of course, is the name of the first company we started. We now have 10 companies, by the way. And I could talk about some of those if you’d like. But the art of being a rebel, meaning that we’re so much through social media or through advertising or just through our environment that we live in, that we’re so, you know, told to what makes us valuable, what we should consume or what career we should pursue. And to be a rebel, anything in the best sense is to hear a different voice, to follow a different path. And that requires us to have a strong spiritual grounding that we realize that where the world is going and what is named as what is valuable, what will make me a success may not be what’s true for my character. And so I think the art of being a rebel is about choosing a path that you’re going to follow, regardless of what the rest of the world tells you.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m fascinated by, you know, we’ve been around the space long enough to know that there’s this thing of impact investing, and so there are social entrepreneurs that come out of programs like Praxis and others that really have a desire to really make an impact on communities in many cases, work with them on the business side, which I love, which is there’s injustices in this world. Yes, there’s an opportunity for philanthropy. But in terms of providing dignity rather than dependency, there’s a place for the markets in all of this. You teach about social entrepreneurship in innovative entrepreneurship in San Francisco. I’m wondering what you do as you take a 19, 20 year old student that is starting to understand the enormity of the injustice in this world. They’ve got a heart for these things. What is it that you do as you train them, as you give them this kind of alternate imagination and you equip them? What do you tell them? How do you get them trained up?

David Batstone: Hmm. What I find my students is they are looking for a bridge to tie together with their heart. And talent is what they’re really passionate about and their expectation of creating a life that is, you know, financially responsible and maybe having a family. And and they feel like they have to choose between the two. And probably the most helpful thing that I do in my classroom is to help them understand that their skills are needed all over the world. And there’s incredible opportunities for them to deploy investment or accounting or, you know, their entrepreneurial passion in environments that are basically untouched. And so there’s so much opportunity in the world today, the way that we’re rewriting our energy systems and the way that we’re going to be moving into new economies of transport. And this is every area health care is going to transform that. I would say to my students that even though you’re getting the message that, wow, it’s almost like you’re nineteen eighty four, you wish you joined the Beatles, it’s over. There’s nothing new and there’s nothing in the truth of the matter is, is that you’re living in the most exciting moments in history and you can use your skills to build livlihood not only for yourself but for those who typically are being left out of the world economic picture today. So I really do encourage them to think bigger than simply can I get a job at Goldman Sachs or Apple?

Henry Kaestner: So I think that you’re probably finding this new generation is really, really open to that in a way, not the to options weren’t. Do you ever see there’s a book that we all know called When Helping Hurts by guy named Brian Fisher, talking about some great intentions? And what are things like that might go wrong? What are the unintended consequences? Are there examples when impact investing or social entrepreneurship might also go wrong, where somebody comes at it with the right intentions, wants to really address an injustice, but there’s something that they don’t see that ends up maybe even doing more harm than good. And I shouldn’t focus on the negative side because there’s so much positive that can happen. And yet there are probably some examples where it’s done poorly as well.

David Batstone: Absolutely. The best way to talk about poor examples is start with my own life. You know, when I first started working in social entrepreneurship, I was in Latin America and I tried to create economic opportunities for poor communities and teach them agricultural skills or teach in the show or whatever skills training. And you often find this in the nonprofit or ministry world that we train people to do a job. But some of that we never think about is, well, if there’s no ecosystem, if there’s not a environment where then there’s investment opportunity or there is a supply chain or a demand for the products or services, then really you’re equipping someone for a very disappointing and frustrating life. And I find this is not only within a training program, but say, in well hearted people who want to teach people in Africa how to grow mangoes better. OK, but how do you think about the system that allows for that success, whatever investment that might be for that community? And so I suppose from the start, you need to think about both the demand and the supply and the ability to use your investment in a way that those communities can actually begin to build out an economy and a platform that will sustain itself over a long period of time. Unfortunately, I find that many social impact enterprise groups. What they do is that they have a very, you know, three to five year investment and then it dries up and it goes away.

Rusty Rueff: So, David, I want to go a little deeper into sort of the faith journey that you took. Right. That at the time when you said, I’m walking away from all of this and I’m going to travel around the world and I’m going to go solve or I’m going to try to solve or try to understand sex trafficking, that’s as much of a faith journey is sitting there going, I’m going to solve world hunger. I mean, because it’s a big thing, like you were trying to put your arms around so we can. Call that a faith journey, but let’s also call it a faith journey, you know, with your faith. Take us through that journey that God put you on and share some of the stories, maybe ups and downs of your own personal faith journey as you embarked on this.

David Batstone: You know, it’s really interesting, Rusty, that we like to make heroes out of people when we see the whole narrative. So while it’s very heroic, but everyone’s journey, whether it’s a hero’s journey or not, starts with just one step. And that’s the hardest step, is to say I’m going to leave my security and my comfort to do something. And it it’s scary to take that one step. And I honestly was not thinking of anything beyond, you know, I need to understand how this was happening in my backyard. My one step is I’m going to go to India and Thailand, follow the trail of trafficking from California to Asia and just understand it. It was curiosity. And also, if I made it visible, I was going to go back to my venture capital firm at my university. But what happened is that you made that one step. Then I met this woman who in northern Thailand, she had rescued twenty seven kids who were in karaoke bars being forced to sell their bodies to male clients. And she was living out in an empty field without any resources. And so I went, oh, man, OK, I have a second step. I’ll take. I promised I would build her a home. That was OK. Now I’m going to, you know, write this book about my understanding of what we’ve learned and to build a home. Then I’ll go back to my life. And that just keeps cascading. So, you know, the fact that not for sale does what it does today, if you think, oh, my gosh, it’s wonderful, what you do is that, you know, that I’ve just been stumbling my way toward it now. You know, there’s been a lot of ups and downs and things that I wish we had done differently. And, you know, one saying I learned and gone I really would love is that we don’t mind stumbling because it makes us move forward more quickly. And I think that’s probably than my journey is. Like I’d like to say that there was clarity, but probably reluctantly. I took each step and then you look back and say, well, God really blessed that narrative. God bless that journey

Henry Kaestner: or take us forward in a second to some of the other ventures that you’re involved with and energy and a number of different projects. I want to go backwards, though, first, which is to go into this kind of atwar about understanding the larger ecosystem. And I’m compelled not only about the stories of where these girls come from, but also through to the demand side. And part of me is just thinking, oh, my goodness, if you can have prostitution where people have numbers on their chest and dozens and dozens of girls being sold in the field, what role does the demand side have in the equation on trafficking?

David Batstone: Well, it really is. The preponderance of the problem is that there is a demand for either the use of someone’s labor or their body for someone else’s pleasure or someone else’s greed. So, you know, after five years of my first five years of not for sale, Henry, what I felt like I thought like I was at the end of a river pulling bodies out as they were drowning and flailing. And that’s compassion. And something is very important. Part of my spiritual journey is to practice compassion, but at the same time is wisdom, and that is to look upstream and say, well, how are these bodies falling in? Like, what are the systems and what are the people, the demand behind it? How do we solve the problem there? And I suppose I don’t see there’s enough of that being done within the anti trafficking movement to actually solve the problem of the area of demand and not only the supply problem, that is people who are the consequences of these actions. So I think it’s really important to understand that demand side. And, you know, it’s everything from factories to agricultural fields to brothels to fishing industry, fishing boats. I mean, it’s embedded in so many systems that one thing that I felt as a business entrepreneur, I’m probably the best thing I could do is rather run after every one and kind of try and stop. All of the negativity was to start creating models of desire in the world that I wanted to live in. I’m sure other people want to live in as well. Start designing companies where there’s dignity and goodness at the core of the company in the DNA of the company, thereby inspire other young entrepreneurs to be able to want to live that life and pursue those dreams.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to get into that. But one last thing, the deterrent part, because I’m just thinking right through the demand side. I mean, the demand for lust and all that stuff, I mean, is biblical. We all know it. We all know that it’s inside of us. I’m wondering, you know, some number of people have there’s a debate about whether the death penalty is a deterrent or not. I wonder how, though deterrence enters into the demand side of the equation with sex trafficking, is somebody listening to this? Can you lobby your legislator to be able to have stricter rules? Does that even work? Do you find that rules are just lax enough and that just authorities kind of look the other way even in America, does deterrence and punishment work or is that just a myth?

David Batstone: Deterrence is effective and I think there’s different levels of deterrence. One is simply prosecution and rule of law that actually takes seriously the practice of same sex trafficking. I remember when we first started not for sale. I mean, it was hard to get, you know, local police officials and FBI to believe the extent of the problem in our American cities. And, you know, I’m not trained as a law enforcement officer, but I my team and I, we would have to go undercover with a camera and go into these brothels and massage parlors and the like and then take that footage to law enforcement. And it’s changed now. It is a much more of an awareness and a much more of a compliance with that in the United States at least. But so that’s one of the other is I think probably the biggest deterrence is the public shaming that comes from being exposed. It’s really interesting. I’m in Sweden right now. This interview in Sweden, what they’ve done is they put in newspapers or on billboards and shaming the johns and the demand side. And, you know, all too often it’s the victims is the young women who are kind of shamed or put into the spotlight. And, you know, it’s remarkable the level to which that puts another fear of the social community even more than in many cases, just the being arrested.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. OK, so I want to move forward towards your equipping some of these entrepreneurs to solve more problems, to create these businesses where business is done the right way. You’ve got just business and not for sale was maybe your first foray into that, but you’ve not stopped there. You’re in Sweden right now on an energy deal. Walk us through some of the different projects you’re working on.

David Batstone: Certainly, you know, part of this was it’s an ongoing evolution of understanding how could we scale the solution? And that’s really the objective here is not for me to be able to come on your show. And I could tell you three stories of young women or boys. And that’s a fantastic again, I don’t want to undersell that, but is being able to say, look, now we can impact millions because it’s the size of this, the scope of that. So, you know, I had a great entrepreneur come to me and I’m always looking for entrepreneurs. And he said, look, I have this idea of being able to assist big companies with mobility. And so if you look at the big tech companies or the big pharmaceutical companies or retail companies, they’re hiring people from all over the world. They want talent and they’ll move them around the world. So they’re in mobility. And so I thought about this, you know, look at all make an investment in your company and I’ll get behind you to be able to get the Apple, Facebook, Googles, Nike’s, and those are all our customers today for this company. But you have to take one percent of all the revenue. We generate one percent of the gross revenue and dedicate it to those people who are in mobility, refugees, human trafficking victim. But they don’t have those services. They don’t have someone to help them say when you come to a new city, find a place for your children to go to school or find a dentist. And so basically, we created a concierge service that now is global. This company, we’re the only investors in it, and it’s called velocity. And now we do have Apple, Facebook, Google, Nike, Twitter, all the companies, Nike, Walmart, Starbucks, they all pay us to take care of their employees. And what we’re doing is we’re taking some of that revenue directly to those communities that also are in deep need of mobility. Security.

Rusty Rueff: That’s very cool. That’s actually inspiring, David, that you’ve extended what you’ve done into, you know, organizations that we all know that needed to be shook at their core to say this is something important. And, you know, to that point, you know, on this podcast, you have the ears now of thousands of entrepreneurs, Faith driven entrepreneurs. What would you like to tell them about how they can, even in the earliest stages, you know, use their businesses to do more than just create a bottom line profit? And how would you like to see Faith driven entrepreneurs, you know, solving these types of problems?

David Batstone: I’ve been involved in a lot of faith driven entrepreneurial events. You know, there’s great things like businesses, Mission BAM and The Lion’s Den. And, you know, I could go on and on with faith driven organizations. And I guess my message continually to them is you’re not thinking big enough. You know, it’s almost as if it’s a ministry that we’re stamping a Bible verse on top of or some kind of a mission. But, you know, it’s not about transforming the business. And what I want to see is that we transform business, that we actually redeem the business model to bring about goodness for the community. And that requires thinking, you know, with grabble, my goal is to compete with Coca-Cola. Right. With velocity. I want to be the number one mobility company in the world. Doesn’t sacrifice my mission. My mission is at the heart of all that I do. But I have to think bigger. And I think entrepreneurs are making. Or God too small, they’re making their mission too insignificant and they’re not saying that, you know, this is a warrior’s test, is a lions task, and it’s to start to build the best companies in the world, but with faith and values of the center of the company.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, we had Tony Evans on the podcast recently, the pastor of Cliff Fellowship Bible Church in Dallas, and he had a great sort of calling out to Faith driven entrepreneurs, to King Demised. Their business kingdom is your business, you know. And as I listened to that and I listened to you, sort of what I read into all of this is, look, the core of what we do, we might be out there running a agricultural business or cleaning business or a technology business. But if we’re faith driven entrepreneurs, you know, we are to give back, take our talents and our skills and kingdom is our business, but also to find these areas where we have the skills, talents and maybe resources, maybe financial resources that we need to put to help those that can’t be helped. And I’m going to turn this over to Henry to close this out. But I want to continue to encourage you, David, and thank you for the work that you’ve done in such an important area that’s happening all around us that, you know, we don’t see. You had to look into the shadows and you had to go into the shadows to find it. And I appreciate the courage and the journey that you took to get there.

David Batstone: Well, thank you. I appreciate it, Rusty. You know, now my being in Sweden today, I think the other thing that spiritual vision gives you is the audacity to think that you can start to kingdom eyes the world we live in. And, you know, right now I’m really compelled not only to the work of my own people and dignity of people, but also the planet. And how do we rethink and redesign the world so that the planet is something that has the same dignity. But God made it with, you know, working with all the big car companies, Tesla, GM, Ford, for the next generation of car. We’re recycling all the batteries. We’re extracting the minerals that they need for the batteries. But it’s done all with a new kind of technology that is going to just really remarkably change the way that transport is done so that companies, American Battery Technology Company, we also have a hydrogen company. So rethink the world, redesign it, put values at the very center of it

Henry Kaestner: by saying, that’s awesome. So much more to go to. I think that we could do an episode on each one of those ideas about how you’re looking to solve for them, how you’re tracing the money and the problem, just like you did with child trafficking and understanding how the supply chain works and things like energy and how it needs to be redeemed and what does it look like right down to the end user. So we’re going to come back to that. For now. We want to ask you, as we do all of our guests, what you’re hearing from God through his word and doesn’t need to be this morning. But it very well could be. But maybe the last week or last couple of weeks now, as one of the things that unites all of our guests together is God is at work. One of our guests has said Auslan is on the move and he’s very much at work. And what’s your sense with all that?

David Batstone: I’ve been drawing recently to the Proverbs, I’ve been reading a lot of the proverbs. And one of the problems over the last week I’ve been thinking a lot about is Proverbs 17. Twenty two about a cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones. And I just think about what do I surround myself with, what is a cheerful heart? You know, the people around me and I guess in a very glib way of saying is that toxic people really do dry your bones, cheerful people, people who have a good heart, people who are positive, they inspire you. And, you know, I just don’t think a lot about time is precious, relationships are precious. And to surround yourself with people who are hopeful and encourage you, they want to see you succeed. And, you know, if people are a negative force in your life, get rid of them, walk away because they never get better. I know it sounds harsh, but really it’s about building communities of hope and inspiration and faith.

Henry Kaestner: David, thank you very much for being with us. Great joy. Thank you for being one of those people that is a positive force in the midst of all this going on with covid being able to look at some of the challenges that can be solved and getting out there and doing it creatively and then also inspire the next generation through your work in school. That’s super cool as well. Thank you.

David Batstone: Thank you very much. Entrain Rusty really been good to connect with you today.

Tom Kehler: We wanted to create a platform whereby you could just use collective intelligence to create kind of a way to score innovations in such a way that it doesn’t matter what your background was, where you came from, it was a great idea. It should get funded. So that’s the core idea of that leveling, making sure capital flows based on the value that they’re creating, not who they are, where they went to school.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, I’m joined by William and Rusty, as always and guys, today, this is a special occasion. It’s rare that we stay within Silicon Valley for a podcast. All three of us, of course, live in different towns here. But we’ve got a guest from Half Moon Bay. We’re talking before we went live, Half Moon Bay, of course, being the home to lots of really cool things, including the greatest pumpkin festival of all time, but also mavericks.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m a little peaked out today because our guest, you know, when you want to talk about somebody who’s been there from the beginning. Right. This whole Silicon Valley thing, you know, and a lot of people just think Silicon Valley from the show, you know, which is pretty funny. Unfortunately, sometimes it was too real. But, you know, there was a beginning. And our guest today was pretty much at the beginning. So I yeah, I got a little. Yeah. Geek things going on. Your intro, you talked about

Tom Kehler: a little bit about my age, but I was only 14 when I can’t I’m just.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, well you talked in the intro Rusty about nineteen sixty nine and I’ll tell you what, I was done in nineteen sixty nine. I was only around for about two and a half months of it. Oh yeah. Yeah. So that’s super cool. That’s a faithful obedience in the same direction, working in an incredible industry. So maybe just typically we start off by asking our guests who they are, where they came from, their faith journey and how it’s all worked up. We do want to get that from you. But as we get started, just maybe some thoughts and observations of the last 50 years in Silicon Valley. I mean, it’s got to be much, much, much different than it was 50 years ago.

Tom Kehler: So actually, I came here in nineteen eighty two, so it’s just about 40 years ago. But actually it was a wonderful experience because I literally ran the age group at Texas Instruments in Texas and I’m originally from the East Coast. We’ll get there in a minute. But I invited Ed Feigenbaum, who was one of the fathers of expert systems, and I invited him to speak to the tea group. And after it was over, I was telling him I had grown up on the East Coast where I like mountains and good scenery and no offense to anyone from Texas here, but the scenery wasn’t quite as good as I wanted in North Texas. And so two weeks later, he basically said, why don’t you come out to California and do a startup? And I thought about it and did it. So I arrived here. An unfortunate thing of that part of the story is that I got to meet John McCarthy, who was one of the other fathers of A.I. So two things happened. I got early stage of Silicon Valley, but right in the heart of the development of artificial intelligence.

Henry Kaestner: So some number of our listeners will think of artificial intelligence as being something that’s been going on for two or three years. They’ve just heard about it starting to come into the mainstream. You’re talking about a very different start. I mean, it’s been going on for a long time. You’re talking about the very beginning.

Tom Kehler: Well, in fact, it was very big. There was a first wave that was quite big and it was around something called expert system. So the first wave is how do we take what humans are good at and put it in a program? And DARPA will call this hardcoded AI, where you would literally try to model how people use logic and knowledge to solve a problem. And so you actually built something called symbolic processing systems that think of the math here being logic, reasoning and knowledge representation as the basis of it. Current AI is all about mathematically learning patterns from data, but the two play together. In fact, we’ll get into this. But what’s happening now is there is a return to bringing together the first wave of AI with the second wave AI to create a new wave around human centric or human in power day.

Henry Kaestner: I mean, OK, I want to get more into that here in a little bit because there’s a lot there. We need to start talking about artificial intelligence. There’s a theological underpinning to all of this and I want to unpack that a bit. OK, let’s go back to who you are. You come from the East Coast. Who are you? Where do you come from? Have you always been a Christian bringing us up to speed?

Tom Kehler: So I was born in Carlisle, Pennsylvania,

Henry Kaestner: and home of Jim Thorpe.

Tom Kehler: Yeah, that’s exactly right. It was an interesting little town. It was a pre Revolutionary War town. So we had our bicentennial in the mid 50s. And, you know, we have the George Washington slept here, I think kind of going and Joe is one of the colonies. But my father was a minister in that town. And that’s also interesting as a teenage kid growing up, I will leave that alone for a minute. But I basically committed my life to Christ when I was 16 and literally thought I was going to go into missions work. And it’s a funny life story. Every time I try to go into missions, guys pushed me into. And seriously, I tried over and over again, you’ll hear that later as we get into this, but I really had a heart for Bible translation and the heart for Bible translation literally led me into artificial intelligence because I got very fascinated with the idea of how can you learn a language and then translate the Bible into that language. So that was my beginning journey and faith was setting off to do that. I got to me, actually, Cameron Townsend, who is the founder of Wycliffe Bible Translators, as well as Kenneth Pike, who is a professor at the University of Michigan who developed a linguistics theory that actually has a lot of the components of what we now use in A.I. But what was going on at that time and this is actually I graduated from high school in sixty five and there were people who were beginning to think about using computers more for the text processing side, but to help in translation and in fact went very from the beginning of when computers were born, they began to try to do machine translation machine translation actually goes back to the early 50s. And so I got caught up in that vision that maybe there was a there there on how you could take computing technology and marry it with this notion of machine translation. And could you somehow and that was the initial vision. I mean, I thought, wow, you can translate the Bible into all the languages quickly. And there was another component to it, which is the method by which Summer Institute of Linguistics is for learning languages was kind of a learning technology where you try to learn patterns and sell. My initial foray was into mathematical linguistics. There’s a professor at Cornell University by the name of Joe Grymes, who was doing some early work on that. But there was a number of academics who could see this vision of the possibility of computing technology completely changing the way that we got the word of God out to the world. And also as part of that, I mean, I’ll get into that a little bit later. But there was actually an ongoing thread there said literally the way I got in, I was inspired by this mission of, you know, can you apply computing technology to enabling people to learn languages and then translate the Bible into those languages?

William Norvell: Again, I’m fascinated by one question. We can go deeper at some point. But when I hear you talk about that, my mind goes to, well, it should have worked. Did it did I feel like there’s still a ton of people working on Bible translation? Why wouldn’t that have worked at this point?

Tom Kehler: Massive underestimation of how hard it is to understand language. And that became my life journey in my part of a I was natural language understanding and still is. If you dig in to what’s at the core of crowd smart, it is really working with how do we understand when people are saying something, what it communicates to someone else and all of those kinds of things. But it is a harder problem. And this is more about what I expect about the future of A.I. We’ve made more progress in natural language understanding in the last five, ten years that went on for 50 years prior to the massive improvements has been in that area. But today it would be more possible. But it’s still not quite there because deep understanding, you have to understand the culture, the meaning, the amount of knowledge that gets applied in Bible translation is way deeper than you can still encode into a machine

Rusty Rueff: is one of the issues. Also, like who has authority? Like I mean, people are translating the Bible all the time. Humans, right. They’re spending hours and hours poring over their interpretation of the Greek and how it was applied. And then they say, this is my translation is one of the issues with machine learning that you can’t have authority. It should be the crowd.

Tom Kehler: Well, that’s a good point. And now you’re playing into my beliefs about that. It should be collective intelligence and no one even has gotten close to doing that. So in my own you know, I continue to stay fascinated with linguistics. But one of the things that, as we all know, if we were all students of the Bible, we have to get into what was the context and what was going on. So cultural context and all of that determine semantics and meaning. And so that is I mean, to your point is that is the hard part. Now, I would dream of a day when people could use a collective intelligence to perhaps generate some more integrated translation, but anyway, yeah, it’s in general, I would say, very hard problem.

William Norvell: That’s interesting. That’s interesting. And so that’s how you got into I could you walk us through, maybe do a quick flyover of your career to date? Obviously, you mentioned Crowd Smart a couple of times, and I want to make sure we tell our audience what that is. But what else have you worked on during the season? And sort of tell us a little bit about where you are today and what crowds are trying to do.

Tom Kehler: So it’s a crazy path. I started out, I thought, well, I’m going to go at the time. Keep in mind, artificial intelligence. Well, it had been named in the summer of nineteen fifty five at Dartmouth. It was still very nascent by the mid 60s at that point. So the areas you could study and actually computer science was barely coming into being as a degree. Most schools, even like MIT or others, had Dubberly and within Devilly you have some work around computer science. That’s what I did. I was a doubly at Drexel, but while they’re in retro, I can see it. I couldn’t see it for decades, but God intervened in my career in a very strange way. I was planning on being a Dubberly with the idea of working on this linguistics stuff while helping out in missions with things like radio communications and all that practical. I lost my scholarship. I walked up and down the halls of Drexel looking for work study as pastors get ahead. No money. And I was going to a private school, which was at the time Tim Keller, which was a lot of money. And so this Jewish professor by the name of Richard Corren befriended me, but he said, you know what? You’re going to have to study solid-state physics. And he got me into a fully supported research fellowship where I went from being an undergrad to being in the graduate program, working on my Ph.D. in applied physics. And I couldn’t figure out what God was doing with that at all, except that another little thing, his next door neighbor was a very, very on fire believer. We’d have daily prayer meetings together. So God put these two people together in the same hallway. And so I studied this and this was the summer of sixty nine. When I’m on the teletype, I’m literally I happened to have a professor also at the University of Pennsylvania, Herb Callon, famous in thermodynamics, who had this vision of how you could take things from statistical physics into computer science. And if you look in the literature today, a lot of that work is what is in machine learning. So literally, I was getting exposure to early forms of mathematical A.I. through that process, and I didn’t figure it out until the current wave of A.I. showed up, but I literally went down that path. So that was one path. So I had no choice but to go into the academic. I went off to try to be a Bible translator. I thought maybe I’ll do that. I studied with Summer Institute of Linguistics after I finished my PhD and then I got offered a position in physics, teaching physics and computer science at a local university, Texas Woman’s University. And I did that for seven years until I got recruited into TII to run a part of their age group because it was during that period at the university. Then I started to publish papers that touched into the area and befriended a bunch of people who were at the AI Group from MIT, and they brought me into that group. Then from that group, I got recruited out to Silicon Valley. So that’s a high level view that in Silicon Valley I became CEO of Intel Corp., which was the first and I think only a company to go public. In the 80s. It was called in I for the stock symbol, very successful in the area of expert systems, essentially helping corporations take the expertize of their experts, putting it into computational systems. And then from there, I was then in the track of being CEO of tech companies and through current. So after Intel, a corporate was Kinect, which spun out of Apple, one of the first e-commerce companies to go public, and then after that, another company that won’t go into those details. But basically, that’s been my I’ve been part of kind of three ways. The AI wave, the first one, the e-commerce wave in the nineties, and then what became kind of the social media technology wave, which I consider what we’re doing, a crowd smart. So part of that,

William Norvell: those are good ways to be a part of fun,

Tom Kehler: just fun.

William Norvell: And one of the things I want to duck into this for a little bit, you know, we talk a lot about jobs here. On the podcast, we talk a lot about how employment is such an amazing thing that Faith driven entrepreneurs can bring to the world, how God desires work, how he had worked before the fall, just the dignity of work, the dignity of giving a good job to someone and what that does for them. And I know recently you wrote a paper talking about job creation through sustainable investing with artificial intelligence, which is a bit of a mouthful, but I think you’re going to deconstruct that a little bit. Could you walk us through a little bit of some of your thoughts?

Tom Kehler: Yeah. So the whole basis for founding crowd Smart initially was we wanted to find a way to level the playing field for entrepreneurs the way Silicon Valley works. And I happened to enter it that way. Right. You have a Stanford professor bringing you in. How hard is it to attract funding? Right. I mean, the point was, is we were connected immediately. I met with Gordon Moore, the famous Moore’s Law, Gordon Moore. I met him when I came here. So connection is all about connection, not about. Do you really have a good idea, even if you went to school somewhere other than, you know, if you were in the main view, somebody knows, you know, somebody else can and myself. And we really believed that we wanted to create a platform whereby you could just use collective intelligence to create kind of a way to score innovations in such a way that it doesn’t matter what your background was or where you came from. It was a great idea. It should get funded. So that’s the core idea of that leveling, you know, making sure capital flows based on the value that they’re creating, not who they know or where they went to school. Now, we ran a small fund for three or four years applying this technology to that. And one of the things we found out is we were funding 40 percent of the founders and CEOs were female, radically different from what was going on in the venture world. And we’re a minority driven and they didn’t necessarily go to the same schools. So what that led to is that article is we believe that if you sort of do this in general, get out where you can. And we’re working with groups like Angel, M.D. or others that are, you know, angel investors or early stage investors. How can you use technology to make it such that if you have a great idea and a great team and you built something, that you’re going to be able to get funding for it and thereby create jobs? It was we all know job creation comes through new companies. And so the driver is finding capital flow to the ideas that are most likely to do the job creation.

Rusty Rueff: Thompson, you heard at the beginning of this thing that I was kicked out. Great to have you on here because I actually built my first expert system Shell in nineteen eighty seven. Wow. Good. IBM had delivered it to it at Pratt and Whitney where I worked at the time and I was working.

Tom Kehler: You were a customer of Intel?

Rusty Rueff: We were. And yes. And so we had this tool and I was working in a group called the Hourly Compensation Group and it was where we scored and rated jobs, the work that people did against a pay grade. And we had all these different pay grades and we had the National Metal Trades Association scoring system. And there were five guys in this group that had been doing it for like 50 years. And they were all getting ready to retire. And they were like, who’s going to do this in the future? So we took the IBM expert system, Shell, and I took all everything I could from these guys heads and I put them in. And so if a job used a drill, it went this way. Did you have to pick the drill bit yourself? Then it went that way until you finally could score the job against the eleven different levels of the match.

Tom Kehler: Exactly. And by the way, IBM, our product that Intel Corp., the key product, knowledge engineering environment, was an IBM program product. So they were very close partner. I don’t know if you used our product or not, but we were very close partners with IBM in those days. Like I said, you know what IBM program product means as part of their core product offerings. And I remember Pratt and Whitney we worked with probably I don’t know, I remember at one point sixty seventy percent of the Fortune 100. We did all kinds of cool stuff, by the way, just so you guys don’t feel bad, you know, the fact that this variable pricing on airplane seats that unfortunately came from us so that it used to be there were just airplane ticket prices that were singular, you know, you paid. Get from here to there, then someone figured out, hey, there are all these people who do these cool decisions about inventory management, could we put that in an expert system? We did. Republic Airways did it. Republic got bought by North-Western that then propagated through the industry as using this rule based inventory assignment. So you may pay twelve hundred dollars and the person next to you spent four hundred dollars and dies.

Rusty Rueff: We just heard the beginning of DEVAM pricing there. It was right there.

Tom Kehler: That’s why they came out of the fact that you guessed it. What’s important about that is computational models can then scale right. And therefore it suddenly it goes through the industry.

Rusty Rueff: All right. So let’s fast forward this all turns into what we now know is a I or think of a I. Can you dispel some of the myths of A.I.? Right. Because we’re all kind of scared of it. I actually I’m really excited about it because I think when it democratizes and we all are running a smart machine learning programs on our phones, the world will get amazing. But right now, I think there’s a bit of a fear some small groups are going to control them, then that’s going to control us, you know, take us down the path of dispelling the myths. And then I also want you to weave in how your faith is a lens on what should or shouldn’t happen with A.I.

Tom Kehler: It’s very, very good question. And I mean, you’re tapping into something that, you know, you’re sort of making my mind explode at the moment. But let’s start off with, first of all, one of the things we did at Intel Corp. is we had the ability one of the things I was most fascinated about my specialty has been in knowledge, representation and reasoning in that first wave. And there is a paper that was published in the late 80s in the ACM around the rolls of frame based reasoning and knowledge, representation and A.I. systems. But underneath that, we had an ability to do something called truth maintenance. You love that idea. The idea is in a logical system. You say if these are your assumptions, then all of these things have to be consistent with that. So it’s about logical consistency of truths management. You can only begin to toy with that idea about what that means in terms of faith. But there literally is an ability to do what are called multiple worlds where in this world this assumption set. These are the logical consequences of that in this world and this subset. These are the logical consequences of that now, I believe, for the future of A.I. and one of the reasons I believe we need to marry this knowledge representation side because we can use that to build ethical systems, are ethically driven operating systems into A.I. And how is that going on yet? No, it is right now, the National Science Foundation is looking to fund with twenty million dollars a new center for human and powered A.I.. I have been part of sort of a mission driven thing early on to move from the current generation of A.I. to human empowered A.I. just to have this ability to integrate how we think we should have machines as an extension of human capability, as the way we make sure that A.I. systems are working at the request of what humans want to see happen now cannot get perverted possibly. By the way, I’ll tell you this. I do not believe generalized AI is around the corner. My statement on that, I think I have it. One of my papers is generalized. I will be a decade away for many decades to come, meaning that.

Rusty Rueff: So I’m not going to get my program on my smartphone.

Tom Kehler: Well, you will get some snippets. I mean, some of this stuff you can do right now, for example, the bad stuff, ability to completely create false identities or take someone’s identity and falsify it. That’s all real and that’s really dangerous. The ability to make you believe that every bit of news you’re reading is agreeing with you is real right now. And that’s caused by a and that’s disastrous as we see it. What it’s doing in the world right now, people kind of they’re in a chamber reflecting their own biases. And it’s a very dangerous thing. And we see some of the I mean, people can go into imaginary worlds where they’re no longer grounded in truth. That’s a very dangerous thing in A.I. Is that the root of that? Needs to be dealt with and there are groups that are forming this ethically oriented. But the notion of just a generalized thinking machine is a ways off, I believe. But the components we have now need to be brought under some kind of ethical guidance. I really believe that. So where my faith comes in, it is first of all, I have a couple of things that have integrated in this. If you think about the investment world and you think about the definition of faith, faith is about evidence of things hoped for. Right. Investing is kind of bad. That, too, is you see some evidence and then you hope there are some outcomes out of that. The high technology for that is Bayesian. Reverend Bayes was a Presbyterian minister in the seventeen hundreds who is trying to connect the notion of evidence with what we believe about the future. So he is literally taking this notion of evidence based reasoning with we see through a glass darkly, and he was trying to put math around that and that is now the foundation for a lot of A.I. systems was which is this. And literally what we do in our system is we create Bayesian belief networks. Certain beliefs will imply certain outcomes. So for me, this integration of faith and A.I. is pretty real because you can actually, you know, kind of create this sense of, well, based on this set of reasons or facts, these are the outcomes we might expect applying that to investing. It’s fairly straightforward. It’s things like, well, if the facts are that the company’s had some traction and people agree that on the traction and if the team is hot and people agree on the team being hot, that would predict that they’re likely to do. I’m oversimplifying that. But you can see where what we’re trying to do in our system here is we’re literally saying, what are your reasons for believing? And then we try to project from that, what do we think the outcome is going to be? So, I mean, I know I wrapped a lot into that, but I really believe the way we think about evidence and then what we want to do is how do we think about evidence and what does that imply about what we expect? There’s a lot of overlap.

Rusty Rueff: That’s really good. Flip it around for us. What does I do to expand the kingdom in the future?

Tom Kehler: Well, let’s go back to my dream in the U.N. as a kid was can this help with communication? And what I mean by that is, you know, essentially Bible translation is one, but I would think more is how do we use I for example, what we’re just talking about here, use I to level the playing field for capital flow. To the right, I mean, this is just about integrity of where that money goes and will that create jobs and will it do things for the least of these? My brother and I mean, one of the things probably the most haunting scripture verse is that one for me. Right. What did you do for these? Least of these? My brother, particularly in Silicon Valley. Right. You live in Silicon Valley. That’s not your first thought. And for me, it’s always been a dream to take a technology. And how can we use this to perhaps help with entrepreneurs that may be in developing world? How could we create an ability? I did a little thing where there was a group called Guys of Geeks and I thought, well, could we use the technology to help people who are behind in the Gaza Strip? I get advice from people like Google and other places to be able to build their startups. I mean, you start to think of knowledge sharing on a global basis where we might be able take our experience here in Silicon Valley and enable someone in Kenya to build a business. It creates jobs that fascinating.

Henry Kaestner: I think that I think that you’ve talked yourself into two other podcast episodes, at least the future of A.I. emissions, and then also just how A.I. and the work that you’re doing across smart impacts investors and investing models and democratizing access to capital. I want to ask you about your reflections and not so much just on A.I., but on what being an entrepreneur in general has taught you about God and your faith. How have you seen God show up? What is it about God that you now know from your entrepreneurial career that maybe you didn’t know as a pastor’s kid growing up in Carlisle, Pennsylvania? Wow.

Tom Kehler: They really good question. One of the benefits I think I alluded to earlier, I’ve had, you know, the guy I created the key product with, which was intellect. Our product was a humanity, but a solid believer. So I’ve had this benefit of in each company to have some co creators of that company be people of faith. That’s been great. But it’s also I’ve seen myself sometimes get when Intel Corp. went public and all that open confession, I got completely caught up in that. And literally I went from when I first came out here as a pastoral intern while trying to do a startup at Peninsula Bible Church because I was still wanting to do something with ministry. And yet when that thing took off and in the 80s, Intel, it was kind of like the Google. We had the free meals and everybody we were IBM was a shareholder, so was Harvard Endowment Fund. So we were like and I was traveling all over the world. I was busy, busy, busy and kind of got pulled away, just got swept up. And so one of the things that taught me to say grounded. Right. It’s real. It’s important how you finish, not how you start. And so it was about getting back to grounding. And frankly, I went through a divorce and had to do a restart in my faith walk and I left my faith walk. It set the centrality of it to how I made decisions. It faded off to the side. And so one of the things I learned is you keep the centrality of your faith while at the very core of how you relate to people and how you make decisions. And so now today, if you were to say, how do I spend my day, I start today of forty five minutes to an hour, a word praying because I realize it almost every day. It’s easy for me to get caught up in those pressures and go off track. And then I finish the day with a review, you know, because it’s the last thing I do at night is go through the word and prayer. First thing I do in the morning is that and a key element of that is be anxious for nothing. Think about that. And being a CEO of a company where you may know all the different things that go on, that has been the biggest spiritual discipline for me is live and the peace of God and live in a sense of joy. No matter what’s going on, if you’re down to a thousand and you can’t you can’t make the next payroll, but then, you know, whatever is going on is that centrally you focus on. Just spend your mental energy in today and focus on what God wants you to do today. And it may even take care of some employee situation more than some business deal, but just stay focused on that. So that’s what I’ve learned, is that I call it micro obedience, obedience into very little things. We’re supposed to be people of joy. So if I’m in a meeting stressing out. That’s so good. Yeah, and it’s inexcusable, you see, what I’m saying is or if I’m being anxious or playing out scenarios, that’s not good. And by the way, I failed this week on what I did, too. Yeah. So but the point of that is that passion about micro obedience, I think is very important.

Henry Kaestner: Micro obedience. That’s really good.

Tom Kehler: Well, I mean that because we so often read the scripture verses like be anxious for nothing and say, yeah, it’s a good idea. No, it’s a commandment. If you’re a Christian and you’re running around showing all kinds of anxiety about whether it’s running out of money or making a lot of money, which either side of it, it’s that peace, contentment. And that has to be right now,

Henry Kaestner: some number of people listening to this are going to identify with the Tom that is going through the Intel Corp. IPO or just crazy. Yes, they still believe they believe enough to listen to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. There are lots of other more entertaining podcasts by Joe Rogan you could listen to with your time. So they believe enough to listen to his podcast, and yet they just aren’t they’re not there yet or not that yet. It’s that they’ve lost it along the way, as maybe you had during the time of just a lot a lot of work going around that IPO. How’d you get it back and what would you tell them when they’ve kind of drifted away?

Tom Kehler: Well, first of all, you know, God’s intention for you are far better than anything you can imagine for yourself. And I know that’s hard to get in your head because a lot of times you’ll have you walk into something that doesn’t look like it’s good for you at all. And so, you know, God blessed me with a marriage where it was literally I got married a second time and and we’re now married going on 30 years. But there was a kind of a rebirth there. A believing woman who I partnered with. And I literally just in that transition lifestyle was I’m never going to do that again. I’m always going to put a boundary around the work thing. Work is not, my God. Right. And so that’s part of the part. I would say that you really have to be careful about idolatry. You know, idolatry is the real deal. And if you say that, you know, once I get all this money, I’m going to do great things with it. Forget that idea, because, you know, the real thing is God can provide you anything you need. And so your focus should be totally in trust on him. I mean, so I had that attitude for a long time. Hey, I’m just going to work like a maniac now, and this thing is going to do really great. And then. And then. And then, you know, I’ll do all these things. Well, that is not the right way to go. Only thing I could say is the enjoyment of everyday life comes when you trust God. And we’re supposed to live in the light and content and enjoy. And it’s just better to live that way then and worry and strife and trying to make something happen. I don’t know if that helped Amen.

William Norvell: I can’t imagine not helping. And that was an amazing thing. And I’m about to come to our clothes and ask you about a scripture that God is using in your life right now. But one just came to mind to me as you were giving that talk. And I want to share with our audience. My wife and I were recently reading through Proverbs, doing the monthly proverbs, and we were in Proverbs 30 and just read this different proverbs. Thirty seven through nine, I think speaks to what you were talking about. It says two things I ask of you deny them not to me before I die. Remove me far from falsehood in lying. Give me neither poverty nor riches. Feed me with the food that is needful for me lest I be full and deny you and say Who is the Lord? Or lest I’d be poor and steal and profane the name of my God. And I just love that picture of daily bread from Proverbs. And of course Jesus repeats that in the Lord’s Prayer. And I hear you speaking to that of you know, that can’t be your focus either achieving so much or having so little. Your focus has to be on that micro obedience to what God called us to do. So I just want to share that. And now I’ll invite you to share. We love this portion of our episodes at the end where we get our guests to share how God’s working on their heart through his word and through the scripture and how that can transcend our listener. So love to invite you to share a little bit about maybe what is coming to your mind through the word of God. Could be something today, could be something in a season of your life that you’ve been meditating on. But if you wouldn’t mind share and we really appreciate it.

Tom Kehler: We are this morning it was in James and how the tongue is a rudder. Right. And, you know, I mean, that was the focus of your words really matter. And so when you’re leading a company, you have a lot of interactions with people where it’s very easy for your words to either be discouraging or hurtful or whatever. So I look at the role of CEO of a company. It’s primarily is how am I relating to the people in the company, to customers, you know, all the stakeholders within that. You know what words are my using. And there’s a lot in that right. Don’t create words of overpromise to investors. Right. Be transparent. Don’t create words of discouragement. But on the same time, you have to manage to heart problems. So how do you deal with difficult situations? So to me, today was like my prayer. Was, you know, the words that flow out of my mouth would bring grace and kindness or support or growth to people. And so hopefully that happens. I mean, it was interesting, I beg you, version fan. So this just happened to be in a scheduled study are going through. And it happened that came up today is that verse. And I just thought how, you know, the tongue can just you can turn the course of a relationship with a few words and it’s very powerful.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a great word. God is use your time to help steer us, the three of us in our audience. And we’re really grateful. Thank you very much for your time. And thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for agreeing to be back on our podcast, on the Faith Driven Investor podcast and the business that’s called the presumptive close, by the way.

William Norvell: Well, the good thing is he’s in Tampa Bay, so we can go find him if we need to.

Tom Kehler: That’s right. I know. Look, this is first of all, I want to encourage entrepreneurs because it’s hard. I mean, I jokingly say to my friends, I don’t bungee jump know, I don’t do anything like that. But when you’re doing an early stage company, some days you think you’re going to die. Some days you think you’re going to rule the world. And it is actually it’s exhilarating and fun, but it’s important that you maintain a youthful mind at all times. And that’s another thing I think we learned so much from scripture is as literally having this useful line in how we approach situations, which I think is God’s will for us, meaning all things are possible, all of that, that my joy in working in early stage companies is around this, that sense of the adventure. It’s more fun than you can imagine.

Obie McKenzie: So then I began to fold that into the doctrine of Bible economics, which is where I am today, and it says a lot about all the components of what I think is a perfect investment plan. Invest in God’s word first, invest in God’s work second, and the combination of investing in God’s word and his work yields God’s wealth, which is eternal.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m here with my buddy, my partner, great friend, Luke Roush. Welcome, Luke.

Luke Roush: It’s good to be on. It’s going to be on as always, Luke.

Henry Kaestner: I think we’re actually recording this video because we’ve got Ovie McKenzie on and we’re going to be using a segment of this, I believe, for the Faith Driven Investor conference that’s coming up here. Not the time to eat this too much. But for those of us who are watching this on video, we’ve all known that we get to learn a lot about somebody from the background they have in Zululand. So what’s on some of these walls tells you a lot about themselves. You think at least, but you’ve got this epic, epic landscape behind you. What is that and why do you have it?

Luke Roush: It’s actually a landscape from where my wife’s family lives in Montana. So we got we had a piece of property out there for a while and just actually recently got rid of it. But it’s a wonderful part of the country and it’s a place that absolutely speaks to my soul. So I love going to the in-laws.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a good spot. Although I’ve been up there in Bozeman, too. We’ve got a really special guest today. We’ve got the first kind of multigenerational element to any of the podcasts we’ve done. We’ve gotten to know OBIS daughter Keisha from her incredible work at Clode Factory, one of our favorite companies ever, the way that they are able to blend excellence at scale and have a very thoughtful spiritual integration in their work. And Keisha is such a big part of that. We’ve got her dad today and I’ve known Ruby for a while now. It’s been several years and I got to know him in New York City. And Obie is and has been a leader on Wall Street for a long time. I mean, he’s a founding board member of the National Association of Securities Professionals. He is a guy that has been at the top tiers of Wall Street. A good friend of ours worked with Bob Dole for a long time. Bob’s been on the podcast, great encouragement to the space and the movement and the different conferences we’ve done. And he’s always said great things about Olby. There’s so many different, really cool things about Will to include the fact that at any second he can break down or break out in song. And it’s a beautiful thing. It’s an amazing thing. I’ve seen it happen before and if I could sing as well as it would be, I’d sing all the time too. And he’s got just a joyful heart. And what makes him the perfect guest for today is the fact that he’s very, very thoughtful about his faith and he’s very, very thoughtful about what the Bible says about money. He is and he’s been called this the Bible economist. So I can think of nobody better to have on the program would welcome.

Obie McKenzie: Well, thank you so much for having me this morning. And I wonder where you are. It’s a beautiful background there. So I’ve seen the mountains and now see flowers and a nice garden. You guys know how to do it.

Henry Kaestner: And now we’re very fortunate. I tell you, I’m doing this episode al fresco, as they say in Northern California. We’re recording this relatively early in the morning and the kids are still asleep. So I thought I’d go outside and hopefully I won’t be defined by some of these birds around here. Obbie you and I met in New York and I was introduced to you as the Bible economist. We’re going to talk a lot about that. But one of the things we like to do with all the guests we have on is to have a little bit of biographical sketch. Who are you? Where do you come from? What brought you to being a Bible economist? Just tell us a bit about it.

Obie McKenzie: I’m a Southern boy by birth. I was born in Tennessee to a family of sharecroppers in West Tennessee, and we moved to Indianapolis, Indiana, when I was a very young boy. And as an African-American family, many African-American families left the South because we couldn’t make a living picking cotton and moved north to find jobs. Many of us wound up in automobile factories in Detroit and some of the other industrial centers to escape the inability to make enough money in the cotton belt to make a living. And so I grew out of that background. My father and mother stopped in Indianapolis, Indiana, where I grew up. I was educated in a multicultural high school there. Shortridge High School, Indianapolis, Indiana, participated in many entrepreneurial or extracurricular activities to include, you know, sports, music. I was good in academics left there in the sixties and went to Tennessee State University in Nashville, Tennessee. And so I wound up going to Tennessee State, graduating there in nineteen sixty seven and took a job in the Human Resources Department at Bethlehem Steel, where I went around the country recruiting engineers, civil engineers, electrical and mechanical engineers from around the country, the major engineering schools. Someone told me while I was at Bethlehem Steel that I probably ought to consider Harvard Business School. And I said, help me over business. I couldn’t even spell it. So he helped me write my essays. And lo and behold, I was accepted to Harvard Business School in nineteen seventy. I came from a working class family where we really didn’t have a lot of money. We’re a very humble background. So the. Idea of going to Harvard Business School, which I had heard was a West Point of capitalism, was really kind of far fetched from my dinner table. But I did wind up at Harvard Business School and fell in love with the subject of finance, probably because we just never had very much money. But I wanted to understand what this thing was called, money. So I began to study finance. And even though I wasn’t a quant, I was very good at conceptualizing ideas. So I would start with the concept and work back to the formula. And I did pretty well and as a matter of fact, wound up tutoring a lot of my classmates in finance while I was there. And so I left Harvard Business School in nineteen seventy two and became the second African-American hired in the business department at Morgan Stanley. There was no such thing back in those days. Morgan Stanley was white shoes, rolltop desk, polished brown shoes with blue suits and doing spreadsheets with slide rules. And that’s where I started my financial life in a bullpen, working all night long on a spreadsheet, which if in fact it wasn’t correct, and the senior partner found a number in the middle of the spreadsheet the next day he would throw in the garbage. Even though you had been up all night with a slide rule, trying to put a spreadsheet together with a slide rule, a slide. Oh, yeah. I mean, these young people today, you know, they can push a button and do a spreadsheet and they have valuation models and algorithms and all of these valuation models and algorithms and spreadsheets were done with Cybele. Wow. Oh, yeah. And it better be right. And you better have the right attitude when in fact you presented it to a senior partner the next day after being up all night reading prospectuses at BAM Printing. You better come back to work the next morning by 7:00 with a smile on your face and don’t scowl if in fact you found something wrong with the spreadsheet because you were discarded and you’d have to start again. So I came up the rough side of the mountain in finance, but I’m happy that I did. It gave me discipline that I have been benefiting from since my days at Morgan Stanley. So I left Morgan Stanley through it the next oh, I say twenty. Twenty five years has been spent in a variety of positions in the financial services community to include commercial banking with Citibank International banking within what was chemical bank, which no longer is, as you know, Assistant Treasurer and New York Times newspaper, our senior vice president and Freedom National Bank of Senior Credit initial. I had my own broker dealer, McKinsey and Co., as the first African-American sole proprietor, broker dealer on the street. And then I left I joined Bob Dole at Merrill Lynch. Given that Merrill Lynch and Chase investors, I chase investors went to Merrill Lynch and Bob Dole was president of Merrill Lynch Investment Managers, and I raised money for Merrill Lynch investment managers. Along came BlackRock, bought Merrill Lynch investment managers. I went with that group as a managing director with BlackRock. BlackRock, as you know, is the largest institutional asset manager in the world. I’ve been blessed to be a part of teams to raise probably 30 to 40 billion dollars of institutional assets to be managed across a number of asset classes. I stayed in that for 18 years. I left BlackRock about two and a half years ago to become now. They said I was going to retire, but I tell them that Phobe is retired, asked where he’s buried. I don’t I just am not going to do that. So I was blessed to take a position with Portland and Capital in Montreal where I work now. I am a part of that. Basically, I put OBM McKensie LLC together as an advisory business and then I developed verticals for cash flow with the likes of property and capital, which is a infrastructure debt platform out of Montreal, and then established relationships with Stern Brothers, which is a hundred year old woman owned company in St. Louis. So I’m allowed to do brokerage and investment banking. So effectively, the model is owned by McKinsey LLC in the middle with a number of verticals where I provide advisory services, strategy, business development and a number of other things. Now, the intersection of Olby professionally and Bible economics started many years ago when I ran into Crown Ministries and I discovered that there are twenty three hundred scriptures in the Bible about money. And that really piqued my curiosity. Again, being from a humble background and a Christian family, the whole idea that the Bible actually had something to say about money was very interesting to me. So many, many years ago, I started studying the Bible. Became a Bible teacher at Canaan Baptist Church in Harlem. I was inspired by a preacher out on the West Coast named Fred Price, who recently passed away God rest his soul. And he inspired me. He was an expository Bible teacher who really took some of the themes and values out of his delivery in a way that I understood what it was saying, what it meant, and more importantly, what it meant to me. And so as I began to teach, I went to a retreat as a part of Canaan Baptist Church. And they had asked me as many years ago to ask me to teach some passages from the book of Galatians. And I said again, Oh, me, I really hadn’t done a lot of study. So I really started studying the Bible years ago and I became a Bible teacher. And then that exploded while I was attending Baptist Church. And I discovered that that the Lord given me a gift of expository teaching and that I had a gift of reading scripture and my daughter. I’ll never forget. She was 13. She used to carry my Bible to church and she used to listen to me teach. And she said, Daddy, what’s the difference in the way you teach in the rest of the people? What’s the difference in you and them? I said, Well, I believe it. They believe about it. And she said, Oh, that’s yeah, daddy. What’s that mean? I said, Well, I believe it down deep in my heart. I believe what I’m saying. I don’t just believe about it. It’s just not words. I believe it. And so it was very important to her. So I understand what the difference was and why people were reacting to the teaching that the Holy Spirit was giving me the way they were. I also learned during those periods that I wasn’t really doing the teaching. I had to make a fool of myself a number of times being so absolutely sure I was right, that I was wrong and that I was humbled by little old ladies who had been studying Bible for many, many years and were not, you know, Harvard trained. They were Holy Ghost strange. And they used to pop in the back of the church. It’s like, Brother McKenzie, we want to talk to you. You know what you said about this or that. And by the way, we’d like for you to keep your jacket on while you’re teaching. We don’t like you taking your jacket off while you’re teaching. So all those little old ladies used to straighten me out. Well, after that, I went to New York Theological Seminary for a minute, a hot minute. And interestingly enough, I wound up on the board later in years, New York Theological Seminary. But back in that time, I didn’t stay in seminary because I felt from what that particular seminary, if you didn’t have Jesus when you went, you certainly wouldn’t have Jesus when you left. And so they were so theological. I didn’t feel that there was any Holy Spirit there. I felt that there was a lot of learning there. But not a lot of burning there. And so that was many years ago, so fast forward I began to get more and more enmeshed in what the Bible had to say about money. And knowing that I lived in a money environment. And when I really started digging into the fact that there were twenty three hundred scriptures in the Bible about money and fewer than the 500 or so about faith and fewer than the 500 or so about love, and the fact that over 15 or thereabouts of Jesus’s parables use money as a subject to reveal spiritual truth. It really got me started on becoming what some people refer to as the Bible comes, and that’s who I am today. And what is that? A friend of mine who is the dollar? And Greg told me that the word I think the economy Amen economy keeper of the laws of the House stewardship. And so is I really began to dig into the word of God, which I believe is between Genesis and Revelations. I do believe that it is God breathed. I do believe that it is irrefutable and it’s very difficult for many to understand where I’m coming from if, in fact, they don’t believe that the Bible is irrefutable. Just so you know where I’m coming from, I believe that the word is the logush Jesus who stepped out of eternity into time to show us how we ought to live to be reclaimed to God, which is his purpose for Amen is to reclaim us back onto himself. And so I find that the road map for that reclamation is between Genesis and Revelations. And I walk by faith and not by sight. Now, over many years, what I’ve had to come to is that there was a difference between believing God’s word in my head and believing God’s word in my heart. So I have been for many years trying to close the gap between my head, my mouth and my heart. And so I have had to work real hard in making sure that what comes out of my mouth is what is in my heart, what we believe becomes what we say, what we say becomes what we do. What we do. Becomes our habits, our habits. Become our character and our character becomes our destiny. So somewhere along the line, I begin to understand that that was very important, what I believed, my point of view. And so I always begin with letting people know what my point of view is and where I stand. So they will know, frankly, whether or not we can communicate at all or whether we’re speaking. You know, I’m speaking English and they’re speaking French or we’re just speaking a different language. And so so I had to as I have matured, I hope I have become less arrogant about what it is I think I know or what I thought I knew. I realized that God is omnipotent. Yes. And for me, God is omnipresent is in all. And he’s a nation. He knows all. So if God knows all, how can I know anything? The only way I can know anything is to borrow from the all knowing library of the Great I am and hope that my ego and my little pea brain will let me comprehend what it is I’m trying to know and hoping that I listen and I’m listening to God and I’m not listening to. So this whole walk for me has been an effort to legalize, if you will, me to say, hey, look, pal, you got a Harvard degree. But I had to work on my other age, and that’s my Holy Ghost degree. I had to really understand. That when Jesus left the Earth and went back to sit at the right hand of Father God to make intercession for those of us who believe in him and that have confessed to him and have them in our heart, that he said, I have given them thy word. He gave us logush. The word in the beginning was the word or was God. The word was with God. He came to dwell among us and we looked at him but didn’t understand it. So he was and is the word the logos. And so I had to try to really peel back my ego to the point where I really believed what I was reading, that I really understood that it was God breathed and that it was good for instruction and was good for direction. It was good for everything. And so then I began to fold that into the doctrine of Bible economics, which is where I am today. And it says a lot about all the components of what I think is a perfect investment plan. Invest in God’s word first. Invest in guys work second and the combination of investing in God’s word and his work yields God’s wealth, which is eternal. That’s in God’s word, first, invest in God’s work, second, and the combination of investing in God’s word and his work will yield God’s wealth, which is eternal. The other thing I had to realize and really accept, so I’m sorry for, is really the beginning of Bible economics is very difficult to cross into the concept of Bible economics until you really understand that the Earth is the Lord’s, the fullness there of everything in it there is belongs to him, including you and me. And if we belong to him, and if the Earth belongs to him, if the world belongs to him, then he ought to have something to say about what we do with this stuff. And so in Matthew, six thirty three, I think it’s six thirty three. But you know where it is. It says, see first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added onto you. We’ve got it backwards. We seek the stuff rather than seeking God. First, the things will come. If, in fact you turn it around. There’s a countercultural relationship between man’s economy and God. This is what I mean. Man’s economy seems to be motivated by self-interest. Greed. The objective is money. God’s economy, on the other hand, is motivated by love. The objective is abundant life in the here and eternal life in the hereafter. Both economies are in pursuit of a contented life, but one gets you there and the other one does. Let me say that again. Two economies, man’s economy is motivated by greed, self-interest. The objective is money. God’s economy is countercultural to that is motivated by love. The objective is abundant life in the here and eternal life in the era. The Bible teaches seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And all these things will be added on to you. Matthew Luke. Six thirty eight years and it shall be given to you not yet given. It shall be given unto you. Good measure. Pressed down, shaken together and running over for as you give it shall be given unto you. God gives to you. So you can give. So you can give to you again. So you can give again. The irony of it all is Satan, who was kicked out of heaven after having been the head of the Praise Ministry, is here to kill, steal and destroy. That is his job on Earth. Every single day is to steal, kill and destroy. And the place he does that best is in your mind. That’s where he works. That’s why the Bible teaches to put on the full on the whole armor of God, the helmet of salvation, which is where your mind is. OK, you can put on a breastplate, you can do anything you can dress up in any anything you want. But if your mind is exposed to thoughts that are not of God, that’s where you get killed, because that’s where Satan gets you. If you don’t think that it’s important to fight back with scripture, look what Jesus did. When Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights exposed to Satan, he was hungry. So he’s vulnerable. And Satan said, Hey, I got you. Why don’t you come on up here? I’ll give you some our money. I’ll give you stuff. Jesus responded with scripture. He responded with Deuteronomy eight three. He said, man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, there’s Deuteronomy eight three. Whoa. You mean to tell me Jesus was using scripture to fend off attacks from Satan? Well, if he does, why shouldn’t we? If it’s about what would Jesus do, we see what he did? He used scripture and then when Jesus left and went back to Father God. To make intercession for you and me, he said, I have given them that word, that word is true now that rolls into what the Bible has to say about money, because the truth is irrefutable, because scriptures irrefutable. And by the way, when we doubt the fact that scriptures irrefutable, we’re questioning, frankly, God’s integrity because it’s either true or it isn’t. So I have to ask myself, are you challenging the integrity of God when you don’t trust that the word is true? I think yeah. I think yeah, so when I read Deuteronomy eight, 18, where it says that God gives you the power to get wealth, that is covenant might be established upon the face of the earth. What covenant? God gives us wealth, so we might do is will on Earth as a true statement for the covenant relationship that we have with him, and that is regardless of what we do in business, whether it is budgeting, saving, investing or giving, that’s my four pillars for business activity budgeting, saving, investing and giving, budgeting, saving, investing and giving. Given it shall be given under UV good measure. So as you give, it will be given unto you. And that’s what he wants us to do, because we’re walking by faith in the reality of his word, which is motivated by love, which means to give and not to get. And that’s you know, I could go on about the scriptures that are Bible, the silver and the gold belong to God. I don’t be too impressed with yourself again. Deuteronomy Sikhi, first Matthew

Henry Kaestner: Obbie, as you talk about Deuteronomy 18 and talk about managing the wealth that God has entrusted us with for his purposes. Help us understand a little bit more practically about what does that look like? What does that look like in your life? I think that at some level and to be clear, it’s awesome to hear you unpack it and it just is more of a conviction for me about God’s word and then also just the opportunity we have to to participate in what he’s doing with Matthew. Six thirty three. But when we get to practical purposes about storing that wealth, what do you think that looks like? And maybe the answer is that it’s not always the same for each person. But how do you as an individual,

Obie McKenzie: I can I can apply that. And I’ve said very simply, I believe that there are multiple gifts in the body of Christ as you all the Bible scholars know that there’s a list of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the body. There are a couple in the first Corinthians, one in Ephesians and one in Romans. And the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to edify the church. And one of the gifts is we know the gifts of helps, prayer, et cetera, et cetera, sometimes gifts of prophecy, gifts of preaching, all these different gifts. But everybody has a gift, our gifts. And so I have been in search of my gift, my gift. I have a gift of teaching and a gift of help and a gift of song. And so I take those gifts to try to line up with God’s will for my life. So one has to ask oneself. What is God’s will for my life? What is my purpose? Every one of us has a purpose. We had a purpose before we were born, Jeremi 9/11. We were destined to do certain things while we were here. And we are all either locally or otherwise in search of what that purposes and when. What we’re doing lines up with God’s purpose for our lives. There’s no traffic in the lane. You will know because you’ll know when you’re nowhere. Now, what does that mean to me? Practically? I’ve spent over 50 years in financial services and 30 plus years studying Bible. And part of my purpose is exactly what’s happening here is to take the message that God has given me and give it back. But on a practical level, and this is practical. I am vice chairman of a infrastructure debt platform in Canada which makes loans that have impact on people’s lives to multigenerational families that are not being banked by the banks and don’t want to do private equity offerings. And so at the table, when I structure a deal in my or help to structure a deal, my concerns are whether or not it has the quantitative metrics to reflect an impact on the lives of those who are less fortunate. For example, I’m supposed to have an interview today, frankly, about this hour with Advanced Communications given to Communications is a satellite company out of London. It was mission. Part of his mission is to get into rural Africa with Internet connectivity to unlock the genius in the minds of those who do not. Africa has millions and millions of people, and there are millions of them that do not have broadband connectivity. And cable does not reach certain rural regions. And as a result, the satellite is probably a more effective way of connecting broadband to people who really need to be supported educationally, agriculturally, economically, etc.. Without that connectivity, the genius that is there is not enough. That’s just one practical way that I am currently involved. I’m an impact investor now and I have taken my financial skills from my fundamental finance and gotten involved in initiatives that have a double bottom line and they’re not mutually exclusive. You do not have to leave your IRR and your MLSE off the table when in fact are engaged in business activities that have a social impact that’s in line with what God would want to happen in as much as you’ve done it to the least of these, you’ve done it unto me. Jesus peeps are the least. As everybody and so to the extent that on a practical level, I can make some modest contribution by bringing a different way of thinking about a transaction to the table, then I have fulfilled part of my purpose and I’ve taken some of the gifts that God has given me and planted them on a practical level, i.e. to produce. I are an animal. I see and do it again. But at the same time bringing other people along to benefit from that. So the Cordie Capital Vice Chairman there, and I am also being interviewed for a non executive board directorship at a Vontae Communications, and they’re both situations that allow for impact. And I could go into several other practical examples of what that can mean,

Luke Roush: what your encouragement, just as I think about biblical economics and just the way that Wall Street is perceived maybe from the outside. I mean, 20 years at BlackRock at the most senior level of what Wall Street does with a real deep understanding of what the Bible says about money and now identifying kind of this new evolution. Let me ask a question. How would you see impact investing having changed over the last 10 years? And then what would your encouragement be to other managers who maybe find themselves where you were 15, 20 years ago in a key role and a key bank? What would your encouragement to them be to practically implement in terms of how their faith manifests?

Obie McKenzie: I think that the whole concept of purpose driven investing has evolved enormously over the last 10 years. I think that more and more people have lived in corporate America long enough to feel that the whole idea of looking for a purpose, for example, Larry FDE, who was my boss, he was chairman and CEO BlackRock has written to many investors about purpose and about impact. I mean, his letters go out every year. And one of his most significant, most impactful letters as recent as the last couple of years was on purpose. And so I think there’s a much more corporate conversation about purposeful living that’s occurred. You said use 10 years as a timeline, but it’s still evolving. Now, of course, we when purpose and impact and ESG at the market, there are always charlatans around who use that as a catch word to attract capital and to continue doing what they’re doing. And we call that impact washing or FDE washing. But as we’ve evolved, we have learned to identify metrics and keep records of those metrics and checks and balances on the metrics to know who really is an impact investor and who isn’t. So if you ask me how it’s evolved, it’s continuing to evolve. You’ve got your back there. You had the unresponsible investor principles, and then you have the establishment of Gen Global Impact Investors Network and then Ierace and then the IFC and then sustainability jumped in there. And then people started debating the difference between ESG impacts and sustainability. So it is a road under construction, but it’s a good road because now there are more and more people that are talking about it. And given that I’ve had a heart for the right side of my being as well as the left side, they stepped into my wheel well, which is, you know, caring about somebody else other than just myself.

Luke Roush: Thank you. That’s helpful. I think that your commentary around impact ESG and how some of that has evolved in the last 10 years, it’s become more professionalized. And it’s also a topic that I think a lot of CEOs are now paying attention to. And you know, how BlackRock thinks about ESG is oftentimes similar, but oftentimes different than other firms. And I think there’s more and more understanding of how different capital providers think through those issues and things that they care about that maybe once or we’re not on the radar. So it’s a hugely timely topic.

Obie McKenzie: The one thing I skipped over that really has been a major milestone for me in that is I learned that Obbie was depending on the size of his stock portfolio and for one K to represent security for me. And as that sometimes will ebb and flow and occasionally it will dissipate in a big way between deals or between situations. And what I’ve had to learn first, I didn’t know just how much I was depending on my phone when it came to the level of my savings, my investment portfolio for security. And during those times when I didn’t know what to do and I was crying out in my heart for help from Jesus Christ, I learned as my bank account went down my trust level, I don’t know how I could possibly feel better when my bank account went down than it was when it was a lot more robust. And in the middle of that battle, I learned to trust Jesus. I learned to trust God. Elementum know, I found out that the Lord is my shepherd is a real personal, that he is my shepherd. He may give me. He restores my soul. And if I would bungee jump. With the reality of the word that he’s got me, that he will supply all my needs according to his riches and glory by Praxis is that I would be freer, that I would feel more secure, that I would have more peace in knowing in my noer for real in my heart that he got me. He got me within my bank account. Is up or whether it’s down? He got me in, so that, frankly, is a a recent phenomenon that I thought I’d already I’d already jump that hurdle. I thought I had, but I hadn’t really until I got smacked a little bit again. And I prayed and called out to him and he answered, I heard him. I’m a walking testimony that God answers prayer. And if you will trust him and trust what his word says is an incredible wealth. My wealth is in my relationship with him. My wealth is in how much I can trust to have my faith in him as my well.

William Norvell: Can you walk us through that moment? We don’t have many people in the show that have gotten a call from specifically, as you mentioned, the greatest franchise in one of the most well known owners, if not the most well-known owner in the game as well. What was that moment like when Jerry called? I mean, a face of him pop up on the caller ID and you were like, oh, my gosh, that’s him

Jaylon Smith: when I was in actually Dr. Jerry yesterday, by the way. But I just walked in to my Draupadi and I was selected maybe like seven minutes after I walked in because I was third pick in the draft on that second day. So it was like boom, boom. But when draft started, I sat down by my brother, Rod Smith, who was actually playing for the Cowboys at the time. Soon as I sat down, maybe a minute later, I got a call and it’s two one four two one four number. That’s the Dallas number. Mind you, I had surgery by the Cowboys physician four months prior. So they had a little more inside information on my healing process and the sting operation and things of that nature. But to see that it was a two one four, no understanding that it was me and my brother’s dad’s favorite team, America’s team, the Cowboys. And then the fact that he was on the team, it was like, wow, I’m going to get a chance to play with my brother.

William Norvell: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor, we are so excited that you took the time to join us today, to take the time out of your day to listen to what God’s people are doing through investing throughout the world. And we are just so excited about our guests today, were so excited about the conversation that we get to have. And we’re pleased that you joined us, grateful that you’re here, always grateful for our audience coming in. And today we get the incredible, incredible, exciting opportunity to welcome in Jaylon Smith from the Dallas Cowboys. How are you, Jaylen?

Jaylon Smith: And I am blessed, definitely blessed and highly favored. I’m thankful to be able to speak with you today. This wonderful man.

William Norvell: Well, we’re grateful for you and we’re grateful for what you’re doing. We’re going to get into that a little bit. And as our audience knows, one of the first places we would love to start this program is shocking for our audience. I went to Alabama, so the fact that I’m not going to start with a football conversation is a big thing, but I’m going to save our audience that right now, Jalen was was a star at Notre Dame and a first round draft pick. And we’re going to get to that, I’m sure, in a story. But we would love to start there. Jalen, tell us a little bit. Who are you? Where did you come from? How did you end up where you are today and how is God walking alongside you?

Jaylon Smith: Yeah, Jalen Smith, linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys Amen. There was a brother from the Hoosier State born and raised in Fort Wayne, Indiana. My old dad saved my family’s from Uniontown, Alabama. So he’s Alabama fan. So definitely some connections there. But I believe and go to Macfarlan, Delmar is just an incredible experience is being from a basketball state. But and we play some football as well there and especially out there and stuff in Indiana. There’s just been a wonderful journey answering my sixth year in the National Football League. I’ve dealt with adversity, I’ve dealt with adversity, and I’ve been able to to have a clear view. I’ve been able to have a focused, determined belief in ERG dreams. That’s really what helped me get to where I am today and all the battles that I’ve kind of endured and persevered through, all by the grace of God and then putting in work. So I’m just like I said, I’m happy to be here today to speak with you all and just to have a conversation. And it’s this is dope

William Norvell: cos it’s fun and tell us a little bit. So obviously you’ve got the athletics and we’re going to jump into that, you know, where did faith and work come into your world? Where did God kind of push you down your professional journey that, you know, obviously we’re going to get into what you’re doing on the side of being a professional football player, which takes a lot of time. Where did those intersections happen in your life to where you started seeing that there could be good holy work in the marketplace?

Jaylon Smith: I’ve always wanted to be an entrepreneur, probably since I was about 11 years old and I fell in love with the business aspect and not having a lot of knowledge of it, but just understanding that that’s a way that I could be able to shed light and put smiles on people’s faces through that education. It’s all about freedom, financial literacy, the financial freedom, and develop some mentors along the way. Our first mentor, Michael, later became my mentor since I was 13 years old. Now he’s my business manager, operating out of a family office that he owns, Colibri Sports Advisors, which helps athletes become entrepreneurs and run themselves like entities, providing governance, expert partners, et cetera, et cetera. For me, my cousin Eugene Parker rest in peace, who’s arguably the greatest NFL agent of all time. He represented D-R Sanders. He represented the Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, Curtis Martin, Ray Lewis, Rob Watson, a bunch of guys, Hall of Fame players. And he kind of taught me how to understand the value of cost and just through platforms, being able to gain access to quality relationship quality, deal flow through going through an amazing high school sports high school where we won four state championships, by the way. And then. Wow, four for four. Yeah. And then headed to Notre Dame to be a part of the Global Institute, you know, in the in the transition to play for the Dallas Cowboys, America’s team, which is the most valued franchise in all of sports, any sport. So all of these things I’ve learned from those of the most high, I’m a sponge and I soak everything in and it’s all about minimizing the mistakes and growing that. So it’s an everyday process for me. Like I said, I’ve always wanted to be an entrepreneur and God has blessed me with the gift to be able to play the game. I love that I’ve been playing since I was seven years old. So it’s a wonderful thing that.

William Norvell: That is and I’m curious, was there something specific that triggered you wanting to be an entrepreneur at such a young age? I don’t I don’t think that’s super common. You know, you mentioned, you know, just really 10, 11 years old. You know, did you start a business? Did somebody shed light on that journey? Is there something specific or was it just kind of in you and you just felt that from the Lord?

Jaylon Smith: Yeah. Something that was just in me, honestly, and developed through time. My mom always preached to me on being observant, always seeing through a different lens and then through work with my mentors, just learning how to think, understanding that it’s OK to think the concept, the value of that is so critical and crucial to our growth as humans. You know, I’m just blessed to know that I’m on the right path and I’m just constantly seeking peace.

William Norvell: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I want to transition a little bit and hear how, you know, a setback really could have shaped, you know, your life a little bit. And you’re senior in college. I feel like I was watching this game. I just remember this. You know, you were projected top five draft pick. You know, everything in the world was going incredibly well. And then you had a season ending injury, which I remember. Right. It wasn’t even season ending. I mean, this was probably going to hold you out of your first year of the NFL as well. Yes, it was a devastating injury. How did that change you? How did that change your view of life? Could you walk us through that season of life?

Jaylon Smith: Really just understanding that, you know, injury is a threat. You know, when you’re playing the last gladiator sport that I play in football is something that I was definitely aware of, but I didn’t think that I would get hurt in my final collegiate game. Fiesta Bowl is a bowl game. Notre Dame versus Ohio State had no intentions of our understanding that that would be when I would get hurt. But it was a career threatening injury, ACL, LCL. But the severity of it was I have peroneal nerve damage, which gave me drop foot so I couldn’t lift my foot up for about a year. While still I stepped out on faith. I still entered the NFL draft. I was going to be a top three pick. And, you know, because of the injury, I got word that I would fall out of the first round and probably be drafted the next day. I didn’t know when or where I was going to be drafted, but I just needed one team to take a chance on me and I would make sure that they got their return on their investment. And that’s what the Cowboys did. The Cowboys took a chance on me, and I’m just happy to continue to be delivering in that moment. It was all about my clear view. It was all about my clear view, which is my core values. It’s how I live my life to walk through life. And it’s broken down into three pillars focus, vision of determined belief in ERG dreams. I’m a focused vision is just about having a laser beam focus, really being able to see clearly what you want to accomplish, where you’re trying to go. What’s that next step being in the present, the determined belief is the second pillar, and that’s about a belief capacity. It’s about a belief in God that he has your back on my belief in yourself, a belief in others, understanding that there are people out there who do believe in you and who are writing for you. And then finally, that third pillar is about ERG dreams. It’s about sweat equity. It’s about how bad do you want it? It’s about, you know, what work are you willing to put in, you know, to accomplish that. So I think everyone should have a clear eyed view in all aspects of life, whether you’re a firefighter, whether you’re a stay at home mom, whether you’re a janitor doesn’t matter the profession. Everyone should have a clear view. It’ll help you persevere. It’ll help ground you for sure. So that’s how I live my life. That’s really what’s helped me by the grace of God. I’m just thankful that.

William Norvell: BAM Amen, yeah, it had to be an amazing time, I remember watching the draft, too, I love the draft and I remember when they said you were going to go early second round and just, you know, it was a big story. It was a big story that they took a chance on you there and you have earned their return made Pro Bowl. I mean, I’m curious, though, can you walk us through that moment? We don’t have many people in the show that have gotten a call from specifically, as you mentioned, the greatest franchise in one of the most well known owners, if not the most well known owner in the game as well. What was that moment like when Jerry called? I mean, the face of him pop up on the caller ID and you were like, oh, my gosh, that’s him.

Jaylon Smith: Well, I was actually talked to Jerry yesterday, by the way, but I just walked in to my Draupadi. And I was selected maybe like seven minutes after I walked in because I was third pick in the draft on the second day. So it was like boom, boom. But then draft started. I sat down by my brother, Rod Smith, who was actually playing for the Cowboys at the time. Soon as I sat down, maybe a minute later, I got a call and it was two one four two one four number. That’s the Dallas number. Mind you, I had surgery by the Cowboys physician four months prior. So they had a little more inside information on my healing process and the sting operation and things of that nature. But to see that it was a two one for no understanding that it was me and my brother’s dad’s favorite team, America’s team, the Cowboys. And in the fact that he was on the team, it was like, wow, I’m going to get a chance to play with my brother, you know? So that was just the first thing that I was about through through by to answer the phone is Jerry Jones. And it’s like everybody hears about Jerry Jones. But, you know, you get a chance to really talk to him. It’s like, OK, is extra confirmations.

William Norvell: That’s amazing. It’s like dreams coming true on top of dreams coming true not only to the NFL, but with your brother to the Cowboys. What an amazing story that God was weaving there. And, you know, especially through crisis. And, you know, unfortunately, I found in my life that God speaks the loudest during crisis sometimes and during struggles. Is there one or two things maybe as you reflect back on that season that you could share with our audience that maybe God was teaching? You might have been in your points earlier. So apologies if I’m asking you to repeat things, but just wonder if there’s a couple of things that God torture during that time that you might want to share.

Jaylon Smith: God taught me faith. He taught me resilience. He taught me patience the most patience. He taught me awareness. He taught me how to be present because I had no choice and I had to face those. That was the first time, the first love of my life football was taken away from me. Honestly, I have never been hurt. I’ve been playing since I was seven years old. That’s when I made the decision that I was going to play in the National Football League. So. I’ve been laser being focused on this dream, so really I learned a lot and I’m still learning to this day because constantly healing, constantly work in this world. There’s so many things that has happened in this world in the past year, year and a half that you just got to make sure your your faith is right. You’ve got to make sure your belief capacity is right. And like I said, what helps me is my clarity.

William Norvell: Amen Amen. Well, I’m going to move over to investing a little bit. You know, I would love to hear just you know, investing is sort of taking the world by storm. I feel like it’s happening in a lot of different spheres. I feel like every day, even this morning I saw Kevin Durant invested in this and Tom Brady invested in a crypto exchange with Jazelle FDX. I’m curious about investing in the NFL. I mean, you can give us some insight here. Is this something people are talking about a lot or is it still a niche industry? Tell us more

Jaylon Smith: is definitely a niche industry, but the conversation is being brought up more. A lot of players are understanding that our careers are short and there’s life after football and there’s power and having more than one revenue stream of income. It’s OK to be more than an employee, but it requires work and requires education. It requires trust in a team because you can’t do it alone. We don’t have the time to do it all on our own due to our main thing, which is employees in our profession. But there’s so much room for growth out here that I think it’s just a matter of time before, you know, everybody’s on board with it. So we’re learning. We’re learning access matters in equity matters. Equity creates freedom. So I’m happy with where we’re headed. We just got to keep growing. You got to keep digging.

William Norvell: Absolutely, and I want to switch now to the Minority Entrepreneurs Institute, and I know we got connected through a good friend, Jay Hein, at Sagamore. Well, I know he’s been working with you a little bit on this. Could you tell us a little bit? Tell our audience, where did the idea for Minority Entrepreneurs Institute come from? How did it get started?

Jaylon Smith: Really, like I said, becoming an entrepreneur and having this access to all quality deal flow, doing a lot of alternative investing, getting us some deals as an LP, as a GP, getting some returns, getting dividend payouts. As I’m experiencing all of this now, I was just thinking to myself, how can I provide this access or this create a marketplace for people who look like me that don’t have the Notre Dame background or connection or the Dallas Cowboy affiliation and connection? A platform, a huge platform that I have. There’s so many people that look like me that that have great and tremendous ideas that can add value to our world. But they don’t have the access to financial funding, to mentorship, to help with putting together their infrastructure or strategic execution plan. You know, I was just thinking about how can I help provide that I to help fix this scandal. There’s an educational and a wealth gap that exists in this world today. And that’s why I created the Minority Entrepreneurship Institute to help close the economic and educational gap.

William Norvell: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. And could you tell us a little bit more? What are the initiatives? You know, what is the program like? And just take us down a layer deeper.

Jaylon Smith: Yes. So there’s two parts. We have educational seminars and we have venture coaches, venture Pitchess business targeting type of vibe and really investing in the black and brown alad next community. We’re opening up marketplaces each year. We’ve opened up Indiana, we’ve opened up Texas. And this year we’ll be opening up the Florida marketplace, having our third annual venture bitch, July 9th this year in Tampa, Florida. It’s going to be an amazing event where last year we raised a total of six hundred thousand dollars invested in the five companies, five vegetable companies. The Jaheim has been amazing in helping me with the structure of helping me with doing the due diligence with him and his amazing group, Sagamore Institute. You know, to find our goal is to find vegetable companies that impact investors can believe in investing. So it’s the marketplace will growing myself. I’ve committed two and a half million dollars over the next ten years towards this. So I’m acting as a lead investor. I’m a believer and we’re getting some great traction. So definitely anybody that wants to be involved here more, please reach out. Like I said, we’re just trying to help close the economic and educational gap that exists in this world. So it is really a bust

William Norvell: and we’ll link to everything here. So, you know, if you want to find more information, that should be easy to find and always and let us know if you can’t and you want to learn more to get in. So we’ve had a few guests coming at this from different angles. I’d love your view. What are the needs of minority entrepreneurs? You know, that you’re hoping to be able to give access to how are they different at some level or are they not? And they just need more notoriety. Just walk us through some of the people you’ve met and how you’re trying to structure the program and what exactly you’re trying to provide that maybe the world is not given right now on creativity.

Jaylon Smith: These companies and people that we’re investing in, they have vegetable companies. They’ve either started or they’re beginning to start and they have an amazing plan, a team behind them, a vision on where they want to go. And you just need some assistance. And we all need help in some form or shape. There’s just been a huge lack in the black and brown community. So I’m just trying to fill that void, that scandal. These are all people with great ideas, great companies that are fixing to be successful. They just need help. So there’s no real format other than that. There’s all different companies that we invest in, all creativity. There’s no real shot. It just has to be one of your goals, has to be able to really make community impact. So my team does a great job of helping really do due diligence on each deal and each company. So it’s definitely a team effort. Sure.

William Norvell: That’s amazing and that’s amazing. And so, you know, as we come to a close, Jaylen, unfortunately, we have to come to a close with love always. Our closing question is we’d love to hear, you know, kind of where you are right now in your life and what God might be teaching you. You know, if there is specific that just sort of in the season that you’re walking through.

Jaylon Smith: Yes, God has been teaching the truth through me. It’s extremely important for me to operate off the truth when I’m truthful in every aspect. It brings peace to my life. And that’s really what I’ve been focused on, especially these first two quarters is just peace, a peace of mind, a wholeness as a human being, and just doing things the right way and being myself really exploring and tapping into my creativity and just being someone’s who’s doing right. So that’s that’s really where I’m at. I’m thankful God is using me. And I love

William Norvell: Amen. Thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a gift. We do encourage everyone to check out Emii and what’s going on. Like I said, we’ll have links there. But just please check out what Jaylen and his team are doing. And if you want to get involved, get involved. Don’t stop. Push forward and make that call and get involved in what the great work they’re doing.

Jaylon Smith: Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Besides.