Ndidi Nwuneli: You know, seeing the face of Africa, the hungry child makes me angry and I believe we can change that narrative as Christians and as people of faith. And so that propels me. I started LEAP Africa because I was angry about the concept of leadership and the conviction that everybody could be a leader. And leadership is an act, not a position. And but a lot of people in positions of authority were rulers and not leaders. And that we had to change that message was something that propelled me to start an organization called LEAP that is now 18 years old and works in six African countries. So I think that anger stimulates an emotion that propels me to want to do something about it. And I think a lot of us are angry, but we just complain. We point fingers, but we feel powerless about actually effecting change.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. It is great to have you back. I’m here in the virtual office in studio with William Norvell. William, good morning.

William Norvell: It’s good to be here. Good to see you.

Henry Kaestner: And also, we’re going we’re going international today. We’re going all the way to Africa. We’ve gotten to know Ndidi over the course of the last several months as a number of different trusted contacts we have in Africa have pointed us to her and her very, very, very compelling, very widely viewed. Ted.com talk about what it looks like to be a Christian in Africa and boldly and courageously sharing her faith in her personal witness and testimony. And if you’re going on a run or if you’re sitting down to a family dinner and you’re looking to do a family devotional, this is something I highly recommend. It gives you just a really good sense of a woman’s story and her journey and just a glimpse into what it looks like to be a Christ-follower in Africa, in the marketplace. And so it’s a special treat for us to have you with us on the phone and on the podcast. And what I want to be able to do is we get started and hopefully Ndidi you be able to help me to do this as I want to be able to just paint the picture, if you will, the canvas of what Africa looks like. I think that as we start this podcast and someone’s listening in and they’ve got a picture in their mind about what Africa means, and for some people it means game parks and for some other people it means extreme poverty. And some of the people and maybe it means opportunity. It can mean a whole bunch of different things. But if I’m honest, as I thought about Faith Driven investments in Africa, I thought of the fair trade coffee deal. I thought of giving African farmers a fair wage and selling those wares in church. I had not thought of the dynamic and bustling economy and marketplace that have come to understand that Africa really is. And it wasn’t until I went to Kenya probably I guess it was 18 months ago and was just really just captivated by the energy of the marketplace in Nairobi. And I’d been to South Africa many times over the course of the last decade. But I thought that maybe that was just kind of a one off. But I was ashamed to have just had such a small view of the opportunity in the African marketplace. We had sovereigns had been focused on Southeast Asia and some of the other economies, but came to see just a really vibrant market, SAS companies, innovations in technology and medical devices and cloud computing, artificial intelligence, machine learning. And it gave me just a completely different view of Africa. And as I started looking more and more into that, as we wanted to support the work of Faith Driven Entrepreneurs in Africa and Faith Driven Investing, we came to understand that there is a massive continent that most of us have missed. And the world is littered with the stories of people that have lost money in Africa or have been reading books like Dead Aid. And yet people, I think, in my estimation, haven’t really persevered to get the sense of the opportunity in Africa. Ndidi, I want to get your sense on this, but one of the things that’s really captivated me, too, is that during this time of pandemic gives us some time to reflect on economies and markets. That’s what we care about in the Faith Driven Investment world. And we’re looking at a time where seven of the 10 fastest growing economies in the world are in Africa, Ethiopia, Uganda, Ivory Coast, Egypt, Ghana, Rwanda and Kenya are seven of the 10 fastest growing economies in the world. So I think that maybe we’ve missed this a bit. One of the people that connected to Ndidi is Efoso Ojomo, who is the coauthor, along with Clayton Christensen of The Prosperity Paradox, in which he portrays a broader picture of opportunity in Africa, talking about the fact over the next 20 or 30 years, there will be more entrants into the marketplace, into the job market in Africa than India and China combined. So Africa is something altogether different than maybe what we had thought of. And as we think about where God might call us to steward his assets for his glories over the next 20 or 30 years, Africa probably needs to be a place we need to look at. And Ndidi how would you help us to think about the continent in which you live?

Ndidi Nwuneli: Thank you so much. And I’m just so excited of your passion and interest in the African continent. So just starting with the size of the African continent, it has a land area of thirty point three, seven million square kilometers. That means you can put the United States, China, India, Mexico, Peru, France, Spain and counting almost every country in Europe into Africa. And you still have space. So Africa is huge. And most maps that we’ve been conditioned to see from our childhood don’t represent a massive scale. So 80 percent of the world’s arable land is on the African continent. Africa also has one point two billion people and it’s projected to double by 2050. So when you think about the number of consumers on the African continent who wants to eat and have to eat at least three times the. They have to work clothes and shoes. I mean, this is a huge market and 70 percent of the population is under 35. So it’s a vibrant young market with lots of energy, talent and skills. Africa also exports much of the world’s natural resources metals. We all know about cocoa when you have a chocolate bar, 70 percent of the world’s chocolate is sourced in Africa. And we all love chocolate. But it’s not just commodities. It’s chemicals. It’s natural resources. It’s vibrant, vibrant ecosystem around mining. And also, when we think about the African continent, I often ask people, how many billion dollar companies do you think we have in Africa? And, you know, people say one or two. And a McKinsey study revealed that there were over 400 companies making billions of dollars. And so we often don’t realize that we have this many business. In fact, it’s four hundred and thirty eight businesses with over a billion dollars in annual sales. Some of obviously some of them have multiple billion dollars in sales. And this was in 2018. So I’d argue that today we even have a larger number. So the African continent for me is, you know, an emerging continent but has such diversity, 54 countries where we think about these 54 countries, their language, diversity, cultural diversity, but tremendous value. And the great thing about the continent is that it is dynamic. And with the Africa Continental Free Trade Agreement, we are also starting to trade among ourselves. Historically, we’ve traded mostly with Europe, Asia and North America. But now there’s a lot more internal trade on the continent, which for me will not only grow the market, but ensure the competitiveness and the growth of the ecosystems and make us obviously less dependent on the rest of the world, which in my own view is actually positive because, you know, when a continent looks internally like Europe has done to improve the competitiveness of your products, your markets, but also see yourself as one entity which allows you to take on the world in a more cohesive manner.

Henry Kaestner: One thing I want to point out now, you and your husband have also gotten to know, know a tremendous amount about agriculture and food. And with 80 percent of the world’s arable land, Africa is not in a great spot to be able to actually to feed itself, but also to help feed the world. Some of the starvation we know about comes from what we hope to be a decreasing amount of strife that comes from military issues. So you know about that. And I want to talk about that to be clear. But there’s also a tremendous amount of innovation around telecom, some of the most creative and innovative companies in the world. And I mean, that’s not just the best in Africa coming out of Kenya, but the best in the world are coming out of Africa because of their advanced mobile communications technology, Safaricom and PASÓ, the ability to transact online and be able to have ewallets and fintech startups and telecommunications. All these things exist in Africa because of Africa’s ability to leapfrog traditional technology infrastructure. And I see that pace accelerating. And I think that that’s probably a new perspective for investors to look at as well. I want to go backwards a little bit and I want to hear about your story. Who are you? Where do you come from? You’ve got such a great story. And I alluded to that before when I was talking about this telecom talk that you’ve got out there. But tell us about who you are, where you grew up, what led you to the work that you’re doing today? And then, of course, what role faith played in all of this?

Ndidi Nwuneli: Yeah. So I am proudly Nigerian. I was born in Enugu forty five years ago. My mom is American and my dad is Nigerian. And they met at Cornell University and moved back to Nigeria in nineteen seventy four. I was born in nineteen seventy five. My parents were intellectuals. They actually did not believe in God actively actually discouraged us from going to church and it was actually university students on the campus where we lived who came to our house to invite us to church, where probably one of the few families that didn’t go to church on Sundays because we grew up in the southern part of Nigeria, southeastern parts where most people are Christian.

And so I turned 10 and my mom asked me what I wanted for my birthday and I said I wanted to be baptized. So all five of us, me and my four siblings got baptized on the same day. We actually got to pick out a godparents and we ended up going to church. And it was an amazing experience to get introduced to God as a young age and actually gave my life to Christ officially when I was 13 and, you know, answered the call to become a Christian, and what changed for me when I became a Christian is just a boldness and courage about my faith and a desire to live God’s way and to draw others to Christ. And I remember my classmates teasing me because, you know, during tests they would want to copy from my book. I’m sure many of you remember people saying, what was it? You know, I need the answer to this question. And I actually decided to give my life to Christ, started covering my paper so nobody could actually peek.

William Norvell: And that’s amazing.

Ndidi Nwuneli: It was actually really difficult because my sister had gotten the highest scores in the entire country two years before. And so we had been on strike for six months before this major national exam. And all the teachers pointed to my table and said she’s a local copy from her sister, got the highest scores in the whole country. And I had to cover my book. And I actually got threatened by people saying, you’re covering your book, keep your papers open so we can copy. And that boldness and courage to say, you know what, I’m a Christian, I’m sold out to God and even money, but then God will see me through. And whatever happens with this exam, it’s my name on it.

And so I think that boldness and courage came from really the Holy Spirit, and that has actually stayed with me throughout. I moved to the U.S. when I was 16. I went to a prep school called the Clarksons School and then went to the Wharton School of Leadership, Pennsylvania and Harvard Business School and worked at McKinsey and throughout my time in college was very active in the Christian fellowship and the gospel choir. And, you know, when I look back at working at McKinsey and actually starting a prayer group at the Chicago office of McKinsey, I can’t believe that I did that at 20 years old because, you know, America is not a country where people profess their faith very openly.

Henry Kaestner: Do they more so in Nigeria? Talk about that a little bit.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Well, the interesting thing about Nigeria is we’re 50 percent Muslim, 50 percent Christian. And most people, profess a faith, in fact, in our country on Fridays, people close early. They go home early because they’re Muslims. They have to pray. They have to go to mosque. In most meetings, you start off with a Christian and a Muslim prayer because you recognize that both faiths that coexisting and Christians go to church at least three times a week. And that’s why I gave that pep talk to me, because I felt that, you know, for a continent that professes such a strong faith in either Islam or Christianity, we should see that faith reflected in the way that we live. And so, anyway, we are very religious people and it’s a very big part of our lives. So it was quite unusual to grow up in a family that wasn’t religious. And that gave me a boldness and the courage for Christ, which I took into my workplace. And I can tell you that that faith has carried me through and allowed me and enabled me to make very, very bold steps in my life and to live with no regrets. And knowing that with every step being guided by God and that the Holy Spirit is my anchor and that God is my source. And I think that courage and boldness allows people of faith to dare to be different and to speak out with courage and to also take risks that many people view as unusual, knowing that you take this risk. But I always say I don’t know what the future holds, but I know who holds the future. And that courage that with every path God has sent me and because he sent me, you equipped me and see me through allows me to do the things I do.

Henry Kaestner: So that’s encouraging. So you come over from Nigeria, it sounds like you’re slightly astounded by the fact that people aren’t more courageous or more open about their faith. We think as we live the United States, it’s a Christian nation. And so, of course, we’d be talking about our Christian faith. The fact that you are surprised coming in that you didn’t see more of that is challenging. One other thing. I want to introduce you to William here in a second, who’s my partner in all of these things. But one thing before I hand off to William, because I know he’s got some questions he wants to ask, is that there’s a part of you’re talking about your faith that also is interesting, a different dynamic in that you talk about hearing God’s voice through anger, which is also a different take. Tell us about that. To our listeners, that might seem counterintuitive. What was a part of your faith journey that allowed you to hear God’s voice through anger?

Ndidi Nwuneli: So I think humans are motivated by different things fear, love and anger. And even in the secular world, we recognize the power of emotions to propel action. And in my own life, it’s actually always been anger. I actually have. Ted talk called rage for change. So I was quite an angry child, meaning when I get angry about something, I do something about it. And what my faith has allowed me to do is to channel that anger into positive action for positive change. And actually there’s a place for righteous anger. Jesus was angry at the temple. So, you know, there’s definitely a place for righteous anger. And I think that’s what I have is really seeing inequity. I’m seeing, you know, injustice and being compelled to do something about it. In the agricultural landscape, Africa is naturally endowed for agricultural excellence. We have 60 percent of the world’s arable land. And yet when that’s important food, one out of every three children is stunted. I recognize that there’s a fundamental problem and it’s actually a management problem where you have fragmented ecosystems, you have. So what can we do about it? You know, seeing the face of Africa, the hungry child makes me angry. And I believe we can change that narrative as Christians and as people of faith. And so that propels me. I started LEAP Africa because I was angry about the concept of leadership and the conviction that everybody could be a leader. And leadership is an act, not a position, and that a lot of people in positions of authority were rulers and not leaders and that we had to change that message was something that propelled me to start an organization called LEAP that is now 18 years old and works in six African countries. So I think that anger stimulates an emotion that propels me to want to do something about it. And I think a lot of us are angry, but we just complain. We point fingers, but we feel powerless about actually effecting change.

William Norvell: Oh, I love that. I love that. This is William here. What an amazing encouragement, you know, that we got on here to talk about investing. But I just think you’re blessing people with your lived experience of the Holy Spirit and where God has taken you. And just thank you for doing that. I would love to hear about some of your investing experience you just talked about LEAP a little bit. Could you push into that a little bit for us? Tell us a little bit more about what LEAP is and then maybe Segway into its foods and what you’ve been able to do with that organization.

Thank you so much. So, for LEAP Africa, LEAP is actually a nonprofit organization that was created in 2002 to inspire, empower and equip a new generation of African leaders. And when we started, we worked one on one with young people between the ages of 18 and 30, equipping them with life and leadership skills to start change projects in their communities. Today, we work in six African countries and we actually teach teachers to do the right curriculum. And the focus now is 14 to 16 year olds because we believe we can reach that much younger and we equip them with leadership skills, ethics, entrepreneurship skills, employability skills. But we also help them become change agents. So we give them a little funding to start a change project in their community to improve the lives of others. And that’s how they build their leadership muscle. And I’m really proud of the team. I stepped out of VCT management in 2007. I sit on the board and the team continues to thrive and young people are just driving the growth and they are also people of faith, which makes me really proud. Now, in 2008, I started working in the food and agriculture landscape and really felt a leading by God to create a catalytic business that would prove that we could source locally process for the local market, address malnutrition and also displace imports. So my husband and I started ASW Foods, which is an agro processing company. We produce about 16 products that are currently sold in Nigeria and also exported and we sourced from about 10000 farmers. And what we’ve proven through switch is that we can produce high quality food that meets the needs of people. We also have retail products, but most of our business is sold to institutional buyers, companies like Unilever, flour mills, multinationals as well, that sourced products that use them as inputs for their own processing. And then we have products on the shelves and we supply to a lot of fast moving consumer goods companies the prevalence of dominos and all the fast food companies in our region. Many of the brands you will not be familiar with. So as Foods has been such a blessing and I’m really proud of the team and it’s also driven by a young Faith Driven Entrepreneurs who actively seek God’s face. In fact, they actually have a fast at the end of every year to hear what God is telling them. And I’m just so proud of that team. And then my day job is to help consulting where we’re building ecosystem solutions in the dairy sector, cassava seed systems, yam seed systems and creating businesses, commercializing research in the agricultural landscape and creating value. And I’m really proud of all the dynamic teams that I work with across these companies, it’s amazing.

William Norvell: Thank you for sharing that and I’m going to ask you to go a layer deeper on how to think about an investment in the ag and food space. I don’t think we’ve had too many people there. I, for one, am not very experienced there. I’ve seen some of those investments and I don’t really know how to think through them. What’s a proper return? You know, especially from the spiritual side, I assume you can employ a bunch of people and that’s amazing. Good work. But just maybe do you have a framework or, you know, how would our listeners of an agricultural deal comes across their plate to potentially invest in, whether it’s in the US or Africa or anywhere else? How would you think about that from the experience you’ve had?

Ndidi Nwuneli: So I think agriculture is such an amazing sector because it’s very diverse and also has quite a few intervention areas in our context. We talk about from farm to fork and everything in between from primary production to logistics and storage and processing, financial services, technology support all the way down to restaurants and chefs until it gets to your tummy. And so this food ecosystem is vibrant and it requires not only catalytic financing, but also patient capital. And in our context, catalytic financing is critical because you want to bet on innovation Henry talked about in Pessah and how it has transformed the East African landscape. And the same applies to so many technologies in the agriculture and food landscape that do enable leapfrogging. In particular, I would say if you’re coming into this sector, you first of all have to figure out what entry point you want to engage in and what value chain most excites you. There are so many opportunities in Africa, in Niger in particular. If you’re focused on an export led growth, then you’d be looking at cashew and sesame and cocoa and rubber as primary production. If you’re focused on food self-sufficiency, you’d be looking at poultry and dairy, yam and cassava and rice where you’re displacing imports. And then across each of those value chains, from seed production to fertilizer to mechanization, you see companies like John Deere playing in the African continent, Caterpillar, Dupont, Monsanto. I mean, they’re all in the inputs landscape. And we have the local equivalents on the African continent that are homegrown organizations. You also have technology providers like Hello Traktor, which was started to basically be the Uber of tractor and started in Nigeria. And so I think there are exciting opportunities across the board. As an investor, you have to figure out what excites you on what component of the value chain you think can be most catalytic. The second is that you have to pick the right partners. Operating on the African continent is like anywhere else. Who are your partners? Who can add the most value? Who understands the local market and what are the growth prospects? And I can tell you are returns anywhere from 10 percent to one hundred percent returns depending on the value chain. But you have to be patient. You don’t expect to have tremendous profits from day one. The Sahel Capital Team, which is our sister company, looks at about a 25% IRR as that investment returns.

But I would say that some have been more profitable, others have been less. And the beauty of African agriculture landscape is that you have an opportunity to have a triple bottom line impact. Agriculture can employ millions of people ensuring food security, contributing to development. And if you are an investor who wants to change lives while also making money, this is the best factor for you. You can do well and do good. And that’s why the sector excites me and why it’s so compelling to local and international investors.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us if you can maybe a story or two of some specific investments that you’ve seen made to have done well. And then maybe also while you’re at it, maybe some investments that you’ve seen that have not done well. The average listener to this is going to be saying, OK, so I think I hear a little bit of the case for investing in Africa. I understand the demographic play. I understand that there’s increased ability and there’s fair trade. I understand that there’s some leapfrogging with technology. I understand that there’s 60, 70 percent of the world’s arable land is in Africa. I’m getting this now. But, gosh, know, how do I get my arms around this and maybe tell it through stories. So maybe acknowledge the fact that, yes, as with any type of region, there are deals that don’t go well. And maybe you can give some counsel to people who listen to this about here’s some mistakes that I commonly see foreign investors make. You know, they do X, Y and Z. So don’t do these. But then here’s a story or two where investors are able to come in, make a real impact on the ground. And also get a good return on their money while they really impacted the social and the spiritual fabric of a community.

OK, so first I’ll say that I’ve spent the last year working on a book called Food Entrepeneurs in Africa, Scaling Resilience, Agriculture Businesses, and through that created a new business called NourishingAfrica.com, which currently has about six hundred and forty agribusinesses on our platform. And this NourishingAfrica.com Is a wealth of information for any prospective investor in the African landscape, because we have lots of data you can search by value chain. You can also have a list of funders. We have a list of entrepreneurs who are doing amazing things. So I will just suggest that you check out that platform NourishingAfrica.com. To get into some examples. Let me just start off by saying there’s such a range of organizations on the continent. While writing my book, I profiled a few. One is called Trigger and Speak actually operates in Kenya. The interesting thing about the trigger model is that when they started, they wanted to export bananas to the Middle East. That was their interest. But as they progressed, they really realized we have to create a local market to increase the standards of the bananas available. And guess what? They had enough people in Kenya who actually want high quality fruit. So they created a business that basically links farmers to small fruit retailers in the city of Nairobi. And Swagga has grown from 2014. When it started, until today it has raised fifty five million dollars and it’s grown exponentially and it’s already in its third round of financing, but is proving the power of technology to enable leapfrogging, but also efficient and effective delivery where the retailers are benefiting, but also the farmers are benefiting. With your cell phone, you can order produce and within 14 hours the producers deliver fresh from the farm to your shop. That’s what very exciting business that I interfaced with. Another one is called COBOL 360, which has done extremely well. What COBOL 360 does is leverage logistics providers and using technology to track trucks and provide basically a huge burden, which we face is transporting produce across the continent and across countries. And so they carry fertilizer and seeds the farms and carry produce back to the cities. And they’ve done extremely well. Goldman Sachs just invested in them. The IFC has invested in them. They have generated so much interest because of the value that they’ve created in the ecosystem. Cooper 360 operates in Nigeria. Another example in terms of successful exits, they have quite a few from South Africa. In twenty seventeen there was one hundred million dollar fund called Agri VI and they exited from February, which was one of South Africa’s most respected dairy companies. I mean, they had almost three times return on the investment, and that’s just one example. And that’s in South Africa. But there are many, many examples across the continent. So when I think about this sector, I think, you know, the potential to generate wealth, but also to address hunger, poverty and also create value for yourself and for your investors is tremendous. And this book is going to be released in the first quarter of 2021, actually, as you can, preordered on Amazon. But I had hoped that it would be released this year because if covid-19 has shown us anything, not just in Africa but across the world, it’s the importance of the food ecosystem and that food is medicine. You can’t address a health ecosystem without addressing the food ecosystem. And food is so vibrant and important to our livelihoods as human and innovation in the food ecosystem is critical. So I’m just excited about the future of African agriculture, but also the future of cross-sector collaboration and cross country collaboration. And I see a lot more promise when companies in the US get interested in Africa and vice versa. Africa has so much to also teach the rest of the world.

William Norvell: Well, it’s amazing. It’s amazing stories. Thank you for sharing that because it’s so good to pull the layers back on a place that some people are scared, for lack of a better word, to invest in. So I thank you for sharing some of the stories. And and actually, as I hear you talk, I mean, this is the way my mind works. You know, those are very understandable businesses, too. So if a foreign investor was going to come in, it sounds like you can pretty clearly understand the business model, understand what the needs are to be done as opposed to a lot of the other kind of tech or things like that that you run across here, that, you know, you’re really betting on a technology that you really don’t understand at some level. A lot of the early stage investors don’t anyway. So it’s really. Helpful as you look out, I mean, you’ve had an amazing journey, I would love to ask, you know, obviously you’re writing this book. Is there anything else that you have coming up on the horizon that you would love to share with our audience so that we could be paying attention to?

Ndidi Nwuneli: Well, I always want to share when I do have the opportunity that I’d challenge all our listeners to actually check out the food culture section of nourishing Africa. I think a lot of Americans have not enjoyed and truly benefited from the amazing food in Africa. And I think we want to rival Japan when it comes to being on the world’s top speed, when it comes to food. And so it’s not just enough to say I eat chocolates, but what about your rooiboos tea? Your South African wine for those of you who like wine. And what about all the great spices from the African continent? Half, which is Ethiopian is amazing and it’s gluten free. I mean, I would love to see African food on the world stage. And I think it’s up to all of us to start looking for African food as well. That way on a daily basis, you’re also touching the lives of farmers, but you’re also investing in your own nutrition because we have some of the best food in the world.

Henry Kaestner: Well, the Japanese food lobby wants to thank you for their shout out that you just had right there. I hadn’t been thinking about as being some rival for Africa.

Ndidi Nwuneli: No, I think that Japan is not rivaling Africa or Japan or rival Ethiopia.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I think that maybe that will be a subject for another FDE podcast about how Faith Driven investors can get involved in the agriculture and the food industry in Japan. I think Africa runs circles around Japan.

Ndidi Nwuneli: But know why I was saying this, Henry? I just I wrote an article last year. Japanese food is ranked number one in the world, really healthy. Yes. And I was shocked to learn that they’ve actually done it in a very creative way. They position their food as healthy. They draw a link between having the highest life expectancy and the healthiness of their food. And they have launched, a whole marketing campaign around their food, which has driven investment in their food. They also have a certification program for their restaurants all over the world to say it’s authentic Japanese food. So we have learned a lot from the movement to increase awareness. And the growth in Japanese restaurants across the world has been the fastest. It has rivaled Italian cuisine. So I’m just telling you this from an investor perspective, they have been very strategic and that’s what we have learned from them.

Henry Kaestner: But fascinating. I don’t think they fry their food enough. Just I’m just kidding.

And I love the fact that you’ve provided us with a website that gives a primer and an overview for somebody who’s listening to this might want to say, how do I get started? I’m interested in agriculture. I’m interested in investing in the food industry. Where do I get started to be able to chronicle on inventories? Six hundred and forty food entrepreneurs, along with some data and some analysis that gives us kind of a sense about the bigger picture and how to weighed in. So that’s a great resource. Thank you.

William Norvell: Absolutely. And if you can see in Henry’s video, if you can find the best African ice cream, you will get Henry on board. So just throwing that out there, right?

Henry Kaestner: If you’re listening is your thing in fried food and ice cream. Probably don’t need to be taking my diet advice from Henry. And you’d be right.

William Norvell: This is not a diet podcast. That is not why you come here. So not the place to be. Ndidi, thank you so much for spending time with us. We do, unfortunately, have to come to a close. And when we do that, what we love to do is invite exactly the question that you mentioned earlier is what is God doing in your life today? And specifically through his word, through his scripture? We love to see somewhere. Maybe he has you in the season. Could be a verse you read this morning or a story. Just how is he speaking to you through his living word today?

Ndidi Nwuneli: Yeah. So when I think about what God is doing, my favorite Bible verse, which I hold onto, is very popular. It’s Jeremiah 29:11 I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you hope and a future. You know, 2020 has been a rough year for so many and people have experienced, loss and all sorts of ways. But the encouragement I have is that when we put our faith and our trust in God, he’s the master strategist and he always, always there a path. And so my encouragement to you listeners is to continue to trust and believe that God, who has started a great work and you will be faithful to complete it. That’s how I have stayed rooted and anchored in every assignment that he’s given me. And every time he gets too difficult, I basically say, you are the one, this is your business. God, come and show yourself faithful. At the end of the day, you will get the glory and that he always comes through time and time again and realizing that I am not on this walk alone, that God is my source of strength, of wisdom and of courage, and that at the end of it all he will get the glory, and that keeps me grounded and focused. And discipline, so I hope I encourage you a little today, and I wish you all the best.

Ray Barreth: Western investors need to bring the savvy that God has given them through gift and experience to the table. We need to understand culture. I did not understand African culture at that time. I much more fully understand it now. And I think Western investors sometimes approach founders from these frontier and emerging markets, not understanding the complexities of their culture, not understanding the family dynamic. The Swahili word Lubutu means I am because we are. And whenever you make an investment into a company, you aren’t just making an investment into a company. You are making an investment into an extended family.

Henry Kaester: So welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast is the special edition. Any time you get to talk with great, great friends and coworkers and you get to talk about something that you’ve been working on, it’s pretty cool. And so today with us, we’ve got Reuben Coulter all the way from Bristol, England. Reuben, good morning. Good evening.

Reuben Coulter: Yeah, it’s late in the evening. Great to be with you.

Henry Kaester: I bet it is. I mean, if it’s mid-morning here on the Pacific, so it’s going to be well on you. And thank you for staying up. And now we’ve got Ray Beareth all the way from Kansas City, Missouri. Probably one of the last interviews we’ll do with you, Ray, before you head over to Africa. But you’re still in Kansas City, correct?

Ray Barreth: I most certainly am. And it’s great to be with you this afternoon, Henry.

Henry Kaester: So one of the things we’ve gotten a sense for during covid is this the backdrops that everybody has. And for a long time, Rubin didn’t have much of a backdrop is amended that and get some really nice paintings behind him now. But the most epic, non virtual backdrop has always been Ray Barreth’s where he’s got this ultimate just beautiful library behind him of all of these books. And it’s just really, really cool. It’s the best one out there. You probably have the best Christian book collection, although I was on a podcast recently with Tim Keller and his backdrop was also really, really impressive. But I think that you may even have more titles as I look behind you, more titles with Jesus in the name of the book than anybody else’s book collection I’ve ever seen. Don’t you have any books on, like sports or something else?

Ray Barreth: No, but I have a lot of books on startups and I have a lot of books on sailing. OK, so yeah, that’s kind of my stuff. I love sailing. Being a sailor for 40 years

Henry Kaester: in Kansas City, Missouri is going to be a difficult place to be a sailor.

Ray Barreth: It is, but I lived in the UK for almost 16, 17 years and sailed around Britain three or four times, then a couple across the Atlantic and the Mediterranean. Reuben, Did you know that?

Reuben Coulter: I did. I did. I have to say, I’d love to go sailing with Ray, but I’m a fair weather sailor, so take me to the Mediterranean and sunshine.

Henry Kaester: Yeah, I didn’t know that. I’m embarrassed of that. No, no, that’s extreme. I knew the Ray Barreth was really, really cool. I didn’t know you sailed transatlantic.

Ray Barreth: Yes. Yes. And in my little catamaran. Yeah, we’ve done it a couple of times.

Henry Kaester: A couple of times I said, what are you doing for summer break? Wow, that’s pretty awesome. OK, so I’m going to set up the topic that we’re going to talk about today. But then I do want to circle back to who each of you are, and I want to let our listeners know some of your background and why you’re on the team and the roles that you play. But this is an episode that you found yourselves on in which we try to answer some of the questions. Like I’ve heard, that investing in Africa is important, but I have no idea how to go about doing it. It’s got to be insurmountable to think about discovery and diligence and ongoing management of an investment portfolio there. Erm I just better off just investing in an international index fund. Isn’t there some other way for me to be able to gain international exposure or should I just be giving money to clean water missions overseas and is that just really the best way for me to impact Africa? And of course because you’re on this podcast, you’ll understand that we think that it is very feasible, although it can be daunting, but it’s very important for Christ-followers to store their investment assets in a way that participates in the work that God is doing the world. And I would submit that of all the continents, that God is absolutely at work in Africa if for no other reason, for the fact that he has seen to it that there’s a very young population where there can be more people entering into the workplace over the course of the next 20 years than the populations of India and China are actually all of those that are coming into the job market in China. It’s a huge opportunity in Africa. How do you make sense of it as a Faith Driven Investor? During our time together today with Ray and Reuben, we’re going to wade into that and see if indeed it is feasible. Ray and Reuben, thanks for being with us on the program. Reuben, who are you and where do you come from and what’s the role that you have on the team?

Reuben Coulter: Yes, so as you might be able to tell from my accent, I’m from Ireland originally. My wife is Polish, our first child was born in Switzerland and our second child in Kenya. So we’re a real international family. My background is I’m a public health specialist by training, spent the first part of my career in Africa in refugee camps, building public health programs, but over time became, I guess, frustrated by the limitations of aid and development in addressing the big problems of health care, education, poverty on the continent, and became increasingly interested in the role the private sector has to play. And how does business creates a difference in these communities. But that’s taken me on a journey to the World Economic Forum in Switzerland, where I ran their Africa portfolio and to most recently living and working in Kenya, supporting entrepreneurs and helping them grow and scale their businesses. And now I find myself at Faith Driven Investor, and I have the joy, the privilege to work with our partners all around the world and really understand how do we build out the entrepreneurial ecosystem, what does it take to nurture, to support, to build the capacity of entrepreneurs so that they succeed and we’re allocating our energy, our resources, our capital to make sure that that happens.

Ray Barreth: Thank you. Thank you. Do the same, please. So you work in a part time capacity, but a very important one as a key part of our overall strategic team and then with a particular emphasis on Africa. But you do some other things, too. So bring us up to speed about what God has done in your life.

Ray Barreth: Thanks, Henry, for that. I think my story is a little like me. It’s getting somewhat longer in the tooth and my story is more about God and his faithfulness and his long suffering towards a young boy of nine years of age whom he introduced himself to in the spring of nineteen sixty three. And that started me on a unique life trajectory developed within me, my worldview and the Lord’s journey with me. We’ve had some awesome adventures together. I was privileged to be able to start a few small businesses, very, very much traditional brick and mortar companies. I had a chain of three automobile dealerships, a small chain of twenty two convenience stores. We did about 80 million a year in revenue. That was in the early eighties. In the spring of nineteen eighty five. I really felt the Lord tell me to sell my businesses and move to the UK where I had strong relationships with a church planting group and I had planted a church here in the States as I was building up my businesses. And so I did that and sold the whole kit and caboodle up, packed up my family. And we moved to the UK in May of nineteen eighty five and we had committed to go for two years. We ended up spending 16 years there and we launched eight or nine churches. We led a Christian publishing house. I launched a Christian film studio called Delts Television. And then I had an opportunity to get into the dairy business for my own company. And we grew that to the fifth largest dairy company in the UK that was based in Cardiff in South Wales. And that’s when I was really introduced to sub-Saharan Africa during that eighty five year, nineteen eighty five to the year two thousand. And it was exciting stuff. I had the privilege of working with several pastors. We launched vocational training centers. We built community health clinics, we dug wells, we built schools. We train pastors and leaders. And of course, I lost my shirt and terrible investments that I made in sub-Saharan Africa, where so-called Christian businesses led by so-called Christian entrepreneurs. And that was a life changing experience. I learned a lot as to how not to do impact investing, and that’s when I learned how to sail and competed in cross country Hunter trials with my trusty steed named Matt Dillon, who I named from the marshal at Gunsmoke. That puts an age on me right there. Most of your listeners won’t even know what Gunsmoke is and

Henry Kaester: we know what Matt Dillon is here. I think you need the horse after the actor, but knows the character.

Ray Barreth: And Gunsmoke is a character in Gunsmoke, Matt, that Matt Dillon came around twenty five years later. But yeah, Matt Dillon from Gunsmoke. And then I came back to the States, launched a very small nowhere middle market M&A firm. Our sweet spot was around fifteen to twenty five million that was based out of Miami and I learned a lot in that business. Henry, we were sector agnostic and we represented both buy and sell side. So I got to work with a lot of different VC firms and reach out of Europe. And I just got a huge cross industry experience. And so you fast forward to the day. I feel like everything that I’ve done in my life, God has prepared me for what I’m doing now. I work at. This outfit called Igor Enterprises, we have an accelerator program of faith driven accelerator program called Venture Village, and we work as capacity builders and disciples of entrepreneurs in Zambia, Nigeria, Kenya. And we help them to build out their business models and to learn how to be the hands, feet and voice of Jesus through their business. And of course, what are the greatest opportunities that I have is to represent the FDI/FDE movement in being your guy’s eyes and ears on the ground in Nairobi. And Lord willing, we’ll be moving there in Nairobi. So life is exciting.

Henry Kaester: So that’s super encouraging. There’s so many different places that we could go. I love this. On the next episode, we’ll talk about the British Kids TV channel. That’s also fascinating. But you mentioned something along the way there that I think is really important. And I think that we need to acknowledge that there are real headwinds for investors as they start to think about investing in Africa. Most people understand that there’s great opportunity. Most people also understand that there have been some real challenges with foreign aid. Question is, can you invest in Africa? Can you do it well? Can you do it in a God-honoring way? Can you trust people on the ground and you hit head on some of the challenges that people see. People have heard of people losing money in Africa, and you have done that. And you’ve done that not only with entrepreneurs, but you’ve done that with entrepreneurs who purported to be driven by their faith. So share with us a bit about that and some of your lessons learned. And then together with Reuben, I want to get into some of the initiatives that you guys have put into place with the playbook to address some of those things. But first, let’s air out some of the dirty laundry. What has it look like as you’ve learned some lessons along the way?

Ray Barreth: Well, you’re absolutely right, I did lose money in my investments in Africa with Christian entrepreneurs, I did that and I did it very well.

Henry Kaester: I mean, you lost a lot of money.

Ray Barreth: Well, I mean, you know, if you’re going to lose money, you know, lose it. And at the end of the day, I did. And I made some incredible errors. And I think I was fairly young at the time and far too trusting and believing what people said. And that was a big mistake. So I think there were many mistakes that I made. One was not journeying with the entrepreneurs enough, not getting to know them, not following up with their community to really understand what community they are walking with, who is journeying with them, who is their pastor, what church do they go to? What community groups are they involved then? How do they serve in their community? So I did not do a very good job at that. And of course, you know, looking at trying to understand their business model, I did not pursue that sufficiently. I think I was so excited about the idea of investing and having this fairytale image of helping these entrepreneurs. I was too quick to move. And the money that I lost over these few deals wasn’t huge amounts. It probably amounted to, I don’t know, 80 to one hundred thousand dollars. It probably stung my pride more than anything. And it clearly showed how incredibly incompetent I was at this. And it caused me to stop and say, oh, look, I have to back up and look at this through an entirely different lens. I would not have made these mistakes in the West. What prompted me to do that here? And I think a lot of that was my desire to just bless people and to disregard some of the red flags. When you do not want to do that, a red flag is a red flag, whether it’s in the United States or whether it’s in sub-Saharan Africa. And you need to recognize that. And so I think Western investors need to bring the savvy that God has given them through gift and experience to the table. We need to understand culture. I did not understand African culture at that time. I much more fully understand it now. And I think Western investors sometimes approach founders from these frontier and emerging markets, not understanding the complexities of their culture, not understanding the family dynamic. The Swahili word Ubuntu means I am because we are. And whenever you make an investment into a company, you aren’t just making an investment into a company. You are making an investment into an extended family. And so there is no private money. It’s all family money. And if one family member needs an operation, well, you as the leading member, as the head of the clan, you need to reach out and help pay for that or maybe some other relative needs, school fees paid or university fees paid. You know, there are all these things. So an African investor receives a fifty thousand dollar investment from the West. Twenty twenty five thousand dollars go out the door to family money. They don’t consider that corruption. That’s their life. What do you mean? This is community money. We are a family, Ubuntu, and we move as one. So to understand that culture and to learn how to address that, those are the things I just did not understand.

Henry Kaester: So you talked about this time from nineteen eighty five to two thousand where you were running some business in the UK. You start investing in Africa, you’re starting to learn some of these lessons and you went in and in the midst of this you said there’s got to be a better way. I’m not going to abandon my love and my desire to be a blessing to people in Africa, but I clearly got to do a better. Yes. What was your first step toward that? Doing it differently than you had been?

Ray Barreth: Right. My very first step was to seek God and to seek out the community as to who I could partner with. I think I was displaying a bit of arrogance to think that I could go into these markets and do this on my own. I mean, that was just stupidity on my part. Once I found a good partner, a local partner, I’m talking about a solid Christian brother or sister, an organization that I could depend on and that would walk with me on the journey that really, really was helpful. And for me, my relationship with the navigators in Africa, particularly in Kenya, really proved beneficial to this day. They are one of the primary recruiters for our venture village accelerator. And I’ll tell you this, when you partner with a strong local partner, the founders you get may not. Super great guys, when it comes to business modeling or the business opportunity they’re bringing to the table, but they are men and women of true faith and true integrity. They will sell their right arm before they default on your loan. And they are men and women who love God, who love you and embrace you. And that totally changes the experience. So I would encourage any investor from the West. If you want to be a part of generosity in these frontier and emerging markets, you know, let us or let someone help you find a good partner in these markets. That’s essential.

Henry Kaester: I think what you’re getting at here and I’d love for Reuben to comment on this as well, is this kind of social community dynamic that lends to good, healthy business. If you’re on the outside of the community dynamic, as you just talked about, there are different types of ethics and a cultural emphasis then would find in America generally, if we’re in Western Europe and America and somebody goes ahead and signs and affirms that they’re going to do one thing or another with the money you give them, generally they do that in the emerging market. That doesn’t happen as much. And we might be appalled at the fact that they don’t honor their word, and yet it’s completely consistent with their culture. And yet the culture that has an emphasis on community can also be a really great positive dynamic as well. And I think that we’re seeing some of that and have seen some of that with microfinance. Right. So Muhammad Yunus and the people that have followed afterwards have understood that the concept of social collateral and social standing within the local community is a very powerful force. And so rather than having this kind of external, we’re coming in with an investment dollars from the West and we’re coming into the frontier markets on our own, thinking that that dynamic will work like it might be for an investor from New York investing in California. What we’re doing is you’re suggesting that you go into the community, find a community partner that has been there long enough to be in to the local community as well and then partnering with them. So what I mean by that, well, it’s microfinance is famous for providing loans to the poor, right, Reuben? So one of the things that seems to characterize lending to the poor is high repayment rates, and yet you’d expect them to be very low. So explain to us a little bit more about what does this community investment in this social collateral concept look like in emerging markets?

Reuben Coulter: Yes, you gave a great example. Microfinance repayment rates are phenomenal, typically. Ninety five percent repayment rates. And the reason is that the loan is not made to the individual. The loan is made to the group, and therefore the group is responsible. Their social reputation is at risk if the loan defaults at a larger scale. There’s a really interesting example, which is the Indian community in Africa. And so Indians moved over here during the period of colonialism, building the railways. But they’ve become some of the most dynamic entrepreneurs on the continent. And the reason is their close family ties. It allows them to borrow money from relatives in India to trades exports and imports back and forth, all based on relationships of trust, and that allows them to grow. Their businesses are incredibly dynamic pace. And if someone breaches that trust, well, they’re excluded from the community. And I think the question is, how do we create that as Christians, as Christian investors and Christian entrepreneurs? How do we develop those networks of trust?

Henry Kaester: So in your instance specifically, Ray, you started working with the navigator’s because you had seen where they had had a long standing relationship in some of these major cities in east and southern Africa, is that right?

Ray Barreth: Yes. And the navigators are all locally run. So these are African navigators. And they really helped me in understanding the cultural buying in. And they also provided me with kudos within the community as standing within the community that I did not have on my own. It was a great relationship.

Henry Kaester: You guys, together with Russell Bjorkman, who also is here at Faith Driven Investor, have written a playbook for investors who want to engage in frontier and emerging markets. Give us a brief overview. Maybe we’ll start with you, Reuben. Tell us a bit about what it’s about and how is it different from regular investing and due diligence?

Reuben Coulter: Yes. So a regular investment process and the due diligence that goes with it is typically lengthy and can be expensive. And if you’re making investments of 50 to 100 thousands in a frontier emerging markets, you don’t want to spend five or ten thousands on due diligence fees. So our question is, how do we reduce those costs? How do we make this an efficient process which is tailored for the local markets, where some things which we would expect to find in the US or in Europe may not exist? And how do we create a common language? So both the entrepreneur. Or the investor understands if the business is investment ready, what stage the business is that so we’ve built out this playbook, which essentially has four steps to us. Step one is engaging the entrepreneur. So how do you do that assessment of the entrepreneur’s chemistry, their character, their competence and, of course, the culture? Step two is how do you assess if the business is actually investments ready, if this business is able to take on the capital, absorbents and grow at the rate that you expect. Step three is essentially a light touch due diligence process. Looking at the legal, looking at the financials, looking at that social collateral we talked about. And step four is kind of saying, actually, once the investment happens, you need to build in post investment, capacity building and monitoring and supports if you really want to see this business succeed and flourish. So we’ve created a playbook which walks you through this and a toolkit which goes along with us, which allows you to do this in an easy and efficient manner. So we see this is something that investors can use for themselves, or indeed they can partner with a local partner and accelerator, an incubator, an advisory firm, to go through this process with them to help them on the journey.

Henry Kaester: OK, so you’re getting an important point here. And for those of us who are used to doing diligence in the states and used to working with companies that might even have data rooms. So things are just completely set for us. We’re used to spending five or ten or 15 thousand dollars and doing a quality of earnings and doing rigorous diligence. And one would think that, gosh, you need to step it up and do it even more. Exhaustive diligence if you’re going to place money in Africa. But to your point, some of these companies that are really leaders in their communities are only looking for twenty five or fifty grand. So nobody is going to be sending 10 or 15 thousand dollars to put twenty five or 50 grand to work. And yet because you work with Faith Driven Investor, of course you believe that that’s something we need to be looking at. So that only works when you are able to be much more efficient with your diligence spent. What are the pieces that make that happen? How does that happen? How can you do, say, 80 percent of the diligence with only 20 percent of the spend? What are the things that allowed for that to happen in a place like Africa that are different than the United States? Because most people say, I’m doing the math, that’s impossible. But yet you’ve come up with some thoughts on that with working with local partners. Tell us more about it.

Reuben Coulter: Well, I think firstly, if you’re able to find local investors who have skin in the game, that’s a huge value because they understand the context, the markets, they can do the social diligence far better than you ever can. And of course, they’re able to help on that post investment follow up. One of the myths is that local capital isn’t available. That’s not true. There are local investors who are making investments, equity and debt in the local markets and being able to find those partner with them and work alongside them is incredibly powerful. I think the second thing that we found is there’s some really talented consulting professionals with some of the top big four firms. So EY, KPMG, etc., and many of whom are believers and really want to see the investments in their ecosystem succeed. And so they’re willing to use their talents and expertize at a reduced cost to see investment flow into these businesses. And putting together this playbook hopefully gives them a very simple way to apply the tools that we’ve developed and do that diligence for under a thousand dollars

Henry Kaester: Ray, you spend a lot of time on the ground. And it was largely your leadership and vision, together with some very capable systems from Russell and Reuben of course, that kind of led us here. Help us to understand some of the work that you did over the spring and summer amidst the covid situation we found ourselves in that helped lead you to birthing this. And maybe you could just walk us through an example, maybe core, maybe somebody else. Why don’t you walk us through how something like this actually came to bear and how it actually works.

Ray Barreth: Yes. Well, I’d be happy to, Henry. As you’re aware, covid hit us very hard and hit our frontier and emerging markets very hard. Our founders, we had some wonderful businesses who were flourishing. You mentioned Educare, wonderful faith driven educator in Kenya who operates multiple schools and had just taken on some investment money from one of our funding partners. And she was hit very dramatically because suddenly her school was shut down and she had no revenue. And of course, there was no government support. So we championed her and thought that along with her and there were four or five other companies that were really suffering that were in a similar boat as she was, and that how could we help to raise covid relief money to just help her get through this interim period? And of course, due diligence has always been a challenge. And I remember when Educare went through their main due diligence, it took a long, long time, well over a year. And it was very costly. And it was frustrating not only to our founder, Priska Milty, but also to the investor. And I thought we must simplify this. And so we gathered together and we thought, how can we come up with a due diligence process that does henot carry a fiduciary guarantee. It does not have any type of assurance guarantee, but it is sufficiently robust to give real comfort to the investor. And it is at a price point that will be attractive to an investor that it provides sufficient independent. And I think that’s the crucial element. It’s an independent review and it is sufficiently done, sufficiently robust to make these small loans more attractive to investors. So we looked at that. We developed a system. We have a due diligence discovery list that’s quite comprehensive. We have an independent review by either a former partner or former director of KPMG or Deloitte. And these are wonderful Christian guys and they have agreed to go on for an insight, independent review. They actually do a three sixty among the executive team. They interview the employees, they call up their customers. They actually do a physical spot check and a review of the financials, and they put that into a report form. And so it is not a complete comprehensive due diligence process, but it is very good. And for the amount of money, we think it’s absolutely excellent. And we invite investors to come and peruse our work and to take a look at what we do. So the whole playbook consists of an assessment on the entrepreneur and his business, and it clearly states where we see him on the investment ready grid

Henry Kaester: Or her of course, so

Ray Barreth: Absolutely.

Henry Kaester: Most of them are female led.

Ray Barreth: 40 percent of our founders are women. Yes.

Henry Kaester: And also you mentioned some interrupted you twice in thirty seconds. But you talk about independent. And I think that that’s something that’s really important, one of the things and that’s where some of these professionals come in from KPMG and others, there are some really wonderful partners on the ground in frontier markets that have loved on these entrepreneurs and have really just done a great job with spiritual formation and discipleship, providing some of the basics on customer acquisition and retention and intellectual property and distribution channels, et cetera. They are not always the best people, though, to do independent diligence because they have been a cheerleader for the business. They’ve been an encourager and sometimes aren’t able to have the same type of a skeptical eye that maybe you need when you’re doing discovery and diligence. So these are people that are coming on board who are given a playbook but don’t have any type of institutional allegiance to the partner organization in the field that has nurtured the company up until that point. Is that correct?

Ray Barreth: Yes, that’s exactly correct. They are completely independent assessors in most cases. They have never met the founder and they have never been introduced to the business.

Henry Kaester: Good. OK, Reuben, I want to come back to you. I want to talk about some of the observations that you’ve seen over the course of the last four or five months about developments in emerging markets and your hopes, your fears. Somebody is listening to this and they’re saying, OK, so I’m thinking I’m getting it. They’re making the case for making investments in frontier markets. You can make a lot of mistakes if you don’t do it in local partnership with people that are on the ground that already have this social standing. And who can lend you that social standing. I can see that there’s independent discovery and diligence. There’s this light touch diligence, this light touch playbook, if you will. But what are we missing here? And what I’m getting at here is a little bit of a leading question is that I want you to have kind of a multifaceted answer for a Christ-follower who’s compelled to invest in emerging markets, who might look in one hand on individual deals. But are there professionals that can help them do this, too?

Reuben Coulter: Yes. So I would say it’s a really exciting time in emerging and frontier markets. There is lots of entrepreneurial energy, lots of new ventures springing up all the time. To separate the wheat from the weeds is the biggest challenge that any investor faces. And when you are thousands of miles away from a completely different cultural backgrounds, that is going to be incredibly difficult. And the good news is there are great partners on the ground. We have a network of over 30 incubators, accelerators and advisory firms in almost every corner of the world. And they’ve been operating they’re working to support and build the capacity of entrepreneurs. So I would say the starting point is find that local guides who can help you navigate the culture. I think secondly is see if they can help you access the local investor network in that community and build those relationships with others who can co-invest alongside you because they’ll be able to act as your eyes and ears on the ground. And I think, thirdly, there are people who are very experienced in helping build and scale these businesses and don’t just take a passive investment approach, but see if you can actively bring in the additional talent that needs to disciple, to mentor and to scale these businesses. And so if you’re able to bring more than capital to the table, you’re providing huge added value and ultimately creating impacts in those communities through jobs, through spiritual transformation, through social impact.

Henry Kaester: And I’d also add to that, of course, that there are an increasing number of professional fund managers that have active spiritual integration, what they do with really neat track records. And over the last three or four months, I think we’ve collectively been really encouraged by the funds that are out there. And when I look at the extent of the professional management and these are funds like Talanton, and when I think about emerging markets, I think about IBEX people that have been in the developing world for many decades, really working with the local community and then allocating the investment capital where they see real opportunities. Recently, really, within the last six months or so, we’ve seen an emergence of African fund managers, including folks that are coming out of Bridgewater Capital. Richard, Okello and Sango Capital out of Johannesburg, serious about his faith with a great investment track record. And future Africa and Sod and Tree of Life and others out of Africa. And so there’s an increased number in the industry that I would say is really starting to flourish of professional managers who have great track records, great inroads into the local community and are really serious about their faith. What does it look like to love on their CEOs in their portfolio in a way that points to God, helps them to have their identity rooted in Christ, and then this alternate imagination about how. They might lead their businesses, create products and services that really help society flourish in a way that points to God. One of the things we do at the end of every one of these podcasts, of course, is to ask our guests what they’re hearing from God in his word. And so, of course, I want to make sure that we do the same with each of you, Ray and Reuben and Ray. Let’s start with you. What are you hearing from God? In his word, that might be an encouragement to our listeners.

Ray Barreth: What the Lord has been speaking to me about recently, Henry, is what the kingdom looks like from a justice point of view. Particularly, how can we as leaders, as business leaders, help set the pace for God’s restorative justice for the world? The Bible says that righteousness and justice are the foundation of the Lord’s throne. In Matthew Chapter five in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, Blessed are the seeker doers of righteousness, for they shall be filled and micas six eight. The Prophet says he has told you or more to what is good. What does the Lord require of you but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God. And then Mike is contemporary. Isaiah talks about is this not the farce that I have chosen for you to lose the bonds of injustice, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house and when you see the naked to cover him and do not hide yourself from your can. And if you do this, then your light shall break forth like the dawn and your healing shall spring up quickly. Your Vindicator shall go before you. The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard. Then you shall call and the Lord will answer. You shall cry for help. And He will say, Here I am. And as I’ve been focusing on the Scriptures the last three or four days, the thought of how God has created us to be justice bringers we as leaders, we as influencers are to take the lead in demonstrating liberating justice, leading people to freedom and flourishing. I mean, if we can’t do it with the resources that God has given us, who can? And I think for me in my life, I’ve been challenged in living in and through our business as Jesus lived, Jesus said, as my father has sent me. So I send you. And as Jesus was to Israel, I think we are to be to the world. And that’s a big challenge. And thank you for this. Yeah.

Henry Kaester: I love the way that you respond to that challenge by saying that we’re going to go ahead. We’re relocating to Nairobi. We’re rolling up our sleeves. We’re getting involved. Reuben, how do you respond?

Reuben Coulter: Yeah, well, this year for many people has been incredibly challenging. And the Psalm that I keep returning to is Psalm 34 an inverse four and five. It says, I sought the Lord and he answered me. He delivered me from all my fears. Those who look to him are radiant and their faces are never covered with shame. And if you ever get an opportunity in New York, the Brooklyn Tabernacle Church has a choir which has put the to music. And this is just incredible. The next best thing is YouTube. But if you get to see it live in person and hear them sing this, it’s just really encouraging. That’s when we look to God, our faces, our radiance. He doesn’t let us down. He doesn’t let us be put to shame. And I just encourage many of our entrepreneurs or investors who maybe have found this year difficult to turn to God in these challenging times.

Henry Kaester: That’s a great word from you both. Thank you very much for helping us to get an overview of what investing in emerging markets looks like. And may the Lord bless you and our audience and help us to figure out how to do this and how to learn from some of the lessons that we’ve all learned the hard way. But how do we love people in community, in fellowship in a way that promotes relationship and helps both the investor and the investors come to know God more fully through the development of some really, really cool businesses that are in a really vibrant and dynamic market.

Kwami Williams: So much of my question of life has been a God, can you give me this gift to open this door for my company? You bless my wife and I to let our pregnancy be successful. And these are amazing, good things that a good father wants to give. But I realize that God wasn’t enough for me. And this season has got me to a place where God has become enough for me, where adversity has adversely. I can pause and I can just say, God, I love you. I believe and I know that you are good even without this good gift.

Henry Kaestner: Here with my co-host, partners in crime, Rusty and William, greetings, brothers.

Rusty Rueff: Hey, hey, hey, hey. Good to see you guys.

William Norvell: Good to be here.

Henry Kaestner: And today, our travels take us to Accra, Ghana. One of the unique things about our podcasts, of course, is that over the last hundred and twenty one hundred twenty five episodes, maybe we didn’t do it for the first 10. But William has asked the same question at the end of every podcast. And this will be a heads up for Kwami. We always ask our guests, what is it that you’re hearing from Guy through his word? What most of our listeners don’t know, because we actually don’t usually ask it after we started recording, is that we also ask each one of our guests what they think is the best global sport and what city in the world plays that sport the best. And so I want to ask our guest from Accra, Ghana. Kwami, please tell us what your answers to both of those would be.

Kwami Williams: Henry, this question is super easy.

It is lacrosse and it definitely plays sport. Baltimore, Maryland, we have hands down all the way from Accra, Ghana.

Henry Kaestner: You heard it here first on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. What a treat it was for us to be on that call with […] together. And […], for those of you who don’t know, is maybe a look at it through the lens of like it’s a Y Combinator for the very best entrepreneurs. They’re coming out of the African continent. And it was so cool to be on this call with these brilliant entrepreneurs from over that continent and find out that Kwami and I had that passion in common. And so for us to get back on this call together, a super special for me. Great to see you again.

Kwami Williams: Great to see you again, Henry.

Henry Kaestner: So thanks for being with us. And we want to hear about your entrepreneurial journey is a great one. Your life starts off in Baltimore. Maybe we’ll start there. Give us a little bit of an autobiographical sketch. Who are you? Where do you come from? And then we want to hear all about True Moringa, what Moringa is, what God has taught you about your entrepreneurial journey.

Kwami Williams: Absolutely. And it’s a pleasure to get to meet you. Will, and Rusty really excited about this time together, and I’ll dive right in. My story starts in Accra, Ghana. As you mentioned, Henry, I was born into a home that loves Jesus, my parents at a very early age.

I was involved in church learning the books of the Bible, all of that. And probably in my formative years as well, I was super excited and passionate about aviation. Anything that got me like I would run outside when planes fly overhead and when butterflies and birds flew. And that curiosity got me really into the spirit of tinkering, more like destroying everyone’s toys, trying to figure out how to work. But we’re going to call it tinkering for all intents and purposes.

And I just sort of grew up just passionate about engineering ultimately, and was blessed with the opportunity to emigrate to the US when I was in the fourth grade. It’s two thousand, my parents believe, gone on April Fools Day two thousand. We landed in JFK Airport. My first meal is a Happy Meal at McDonald’s and I’m thinking it’s just amazing.

I get to play house not knowing that the future as an immigrant in the US would actually be extremely challenging.

And we settled in Baltimore, Maryland, and that’s the connection to La Crosse in high school, got into two things lacrosse and robotics. So I’m sort of this job by day and robotics, married all other our and I got the chance to learn the sport, got excited about sports in general.

And by the end of my time in high school, I realized that I could use this passion for building robots and this passion for aviation and a discipline called aerospace engineering. And I realized that my team was one of the best places to learn that. So I set my sights there and God opened up the door for me to get into MIT and pursue my dream, which was to become a rocket scientist.

Henry Kaestner: Did you play lacrosse at MIT? Does MIT even have a lacrosse team? Does have a lacrosse team?

Kwami Williams: I played one semester really actually just fall ball. Unfortunately, I realized that I just couldn’t keep up with school, which I’m drinking from a fire hose and then my team setting. Right. Science, I bet.

So I stuck with intramural sports as my sports outlet.

So everything ultimate Frisbee, soccer, football, dodgeball, whatever, got me moving.

And my time in my team was just this beautiful experience because I thought I was going MIT to learn about aerospace engineering. And it actually became this formative experience in my spiritual journey for so much of my life. Because I grew up in the church, they had just become second nature and I spent the first two years at MIT actually wrestling with that God exists. And if he does, fate has it right.

I join a fraternity to explore, like, OK, I’m away from home. I just want to experience what freedom looks like without immigrant parents who are watching your every move.

And God really. Just use my time at MIT to help me make my faith real, for me to get to a point where I was old enough with clarity to say that I love Jesus and that I want to live my life in a way that shares his love with others.

And in that same way, MIT was transformative and moving me ultimately from aerospace engineering to a lot of what I do now, which is agriculture. And I love to kind of talk about that journey with you as we talk about the Moringa tree.

Kwami Williams: Good. We’ll talk about that. And I think that much of the switch there, the transition came from meeting your co-founder. Meeting somebody else was a formative relationship and he saw a different opportunity to walk us through that transition. Walk us from meeting your partner, Emily, and then, yes, tell us what in the world Moringa is. I don’t think I’ve heard the word Moringa before, maybe nine months ago. And now it feels like every week somebody is saying something about Moringa, feels like it was ringing the kale of today or something like that.

Kwami Williams: Precisely. It’s, yeah. More nutritious than kale with even more antiinflammatory benefits than tumeric. It’s kind of the buzz words right now around Moringa. But yeah, let me take you back in time. So in 2010, as blessed with the opportunity to join the Campus Crusade for Christ now crew movement to visit, not on a mission trip.

And that trip took me to the northern part of Ghana. And that was really my first introduction to rural poverty. I’ve realized that it’s so easy for us to be desensitized by development statistics. But once those numbers become names and faces of people you do life with, you share life with, it changes everything.

And for me, it moved me from this place of saying, I want to go back and intern at NASA to how can I leverage what I’ve been blessed with to actually start making a difference in the lives of the rural poor in Ghana and what are the resources and opportunity around them that we can start capitalizing on to transform their lives? So it’s not just sort of a poverty lens, but really an opportunity lens. And I was stuck with this question until my final year identity when I took a course called Lab Development. And this is the course in which I met Emily, my co-founder and business partner, and as well, Daisy, my wife and my partner.

And so this course takes everything. And it started through a trip back to Ghana.

And this time we are working alongside real farmers and they’re telling us about this tree called Moringa. They’ve seen Moringa is this miracle tree locally.

And I’m saying, OK, hold up, slow down. Let’s talk about some numbers and some science here. And they’re like, OK, so the more we researched, the more we raise.

The farmers were right. The release of the tree contain more iron and more calcium in milk, protein, yogurt, more vitamin C than oranges. And so we those this nutrient powerhouse in the release of the tree and then we looked at the size of the tumor around it. It also contained is deeply moisturizing oil that outperforms, again, coconut and shale oils, which we know of in the cosmetics sphere. And when we took a layer back and we looked at the marketplace where there was a five billion dollar market opportunity. And so it became very clear to us as students in 2012 in Ghana that there was more to Moringa than getting an A on a class project that we really need to think about, connecting the dots, helping farmers as we like to joke, prove that money grows on trees. The money that they need to transform and improve their livelihoods is right there in their backyards. And so my co-founder, Emily and I, from that point on to start to research Moringa personally and we were fortunate enough to win some grant capital out of team that helped us launch through Moringa, our consumer facing and vertically integrated brand metering and Moringa products powered for our health and wellness today.

Rusty Rueff: And as I understand it, the Moringa tree is also good for farming. Right? It’s not one of those trees where like the palm oil trees where they go in and it messes everything up, it actually helps.

Kwami Williams: You’ve got it perfectly right, Rusty. So Moringa one, it grows and in arid climates. So it’s a really climate smart, sustainable tree too.

It helps the crops around it grow better. Three, it can be in a crop. And so you don’t put farmers in a position where it’s an all or nothing like grow Moringa and cut everything else down. And then for it grows extremely fast compared to other fruit trees. So Moranda fruits and about 12 to 14 months. And that compares, for example, to Shey, which takes fifteen years to give you its first fruit or even mango trees, fruit trees that are three to five years before they give you the first fruit. So in Moringa you have this climate resilience opportunity for real farmers. You also have a. Dual income opportunity from the seeds in the leaves, and then you have the opportunity to support and integrate into what farmers are already cultivating rather than replace that.

Rusty Rueff: That’s very cool. I feel like we’re just this far away from Moringa smoothies right down here at Jamba Juice.

Kwami Williams: You know, it’s it’s like it really is coming. It really is. It’s I mean, in different parts of the US, it’s already there.

Rusty Rueff: It’s very cool. So tell us about your vision and mission of True Moringa. I mean, what’s the problem? You’re talking to both Faith Driven Investor and Faith Driven Entrepreneurs here. So what’s the problem that you’re trying to solve?

And how does planting these trees actually do that?

Kwami Williams: Yeah, so True Moringa today serves five thousand women and farming families all across Ghana, and we’ve planned it two million trees across the country of forest and communities and combating malnutrition.

And we are adding value to the seeds of the tree and have created a line of natural personal care products. And as well, we’re taking the lease of the tree and have created a line of health and wellness products. And we built this vertically integrated supply chain really because we have a bold vision. And that vision is that there are a plethora of underutilized high value crops here on the African continent. And what’s missing are really the rails to connect these underutilized crops to a global marketplace where they can be enjoyed and appreciated and to build those rails in a way that improves the lives of farmers that cares for the planet as well as ultimately is sustainable by generating a profit. And so we like to say that our mission is to improve the lives of our farmers and to improve the wellness of our customers, all powered by this Moringa tree.

Rusty Rueff: That’s very cool. If I can paraphrase somebody that we all not only admire but follow, you’re not only teaching them to use a tree, you’re teaching them how to plant a tree. Right? You know.

Kwami Williams: Precisely, precisely. That’s good.

Rusty Rueff: So there must have been some disconnect in the market, though, because Moringa trees have been around for a long time and somebody didn’t see the market opportunity. But yet you have. So how did you see it and what’s your fix for that disconnect?

Kwami Williams: Yeah, so we realized that a big part of the disconnect revolved around the initial positioning of Moringa. It was largely being championed by non-profits and aid organizations working on the African continent, focused on rural malnutrition prevention.

So they would go into communities and they’ll say, hey, farmers here, soem Moringa Seeds, plant them, eat the leaves, your life will be better. Goodbye. And of course, farmers will receive seeds, plant them, and ultimately became jaded because they’re saying, OK, we’ve plant this amazing tree. We can’t eat all the leaves from hundreds of trees. And we know from everything you’ve taught us that there’s a market value to both the leaves and the seeds of my tree.

And so we realized what was missing was a for profit social impact focus to the supply chain. So we now have come in and said, right, we’re not just going to educate you on how to plant Moringa and how to consume it to combat malnutrition at home. We’re going to help you scale your five 10 trees to five hundred on an acre with your other crops. We’re going to now add value here in Ghana, transforming Moringa into ingredients like the seed oil and the leaf powder. And then we’re going to take these two key ingredients and create everyday products that people can enjoy. So there’s an economic engine behind the social impact work and environmental impact work that Moringa presents naturally. And so that’s been the differentiator that we brought into the marketplace. And so even now, when you go to our truemoringa.com Website and you make a purchase, we built the […] ability to allow you to know there’s where my products came from, the community in Ghana they came from. And as you buy one, you plant one. And so we’ve really connected the dots all the way from sort of the souls of Ghana to the shelves of Whole Foods and as well to the smartphones that we have as we shop online in the US.

Rusty Rueff: That’s cool. And we know you’re not only sowing Moringa tree seeds, we also know you’re sowing seeds of your faith. And so take us through, you know, the spiritual integration of your work, your project, your mission. And then while you’re there, talk to us about why Ghana and what harvests are you hoping to see spiritually through your work in Ghana?

Kwami Williams: Yes, such good questions, Rusty, I sort of go in order, so as I think about sowing seeds beyond Moringa seeds, it really comes down to how do I as the co-founder and CEO, I connect, share my fate and display and walk my faith out in a hopefully winsome way in our organization. And what’s been so special is that from the very beginning, God has been the foundation of everything we’ve done, actually. I remember when I first moved back to Ghana, we launched an Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign to kick start the business and we had a twenty five thousand dollar goal and we had raised something like four thousand dollars.

And it’s Christmas Eve. Nineteen thousand more to go. And I get an email from a couple in Sweden saying, hey, we don’t know you, but God told us to fill in the entire round. So you meet your goal.

Rusty Rueff: Sweden, you said Sweden and Sweden. So how to connect those dots for me to Sweden?

Kwami Williams: And I share this story because when I open up that email, this is Christmas. And I just started crying. And as I was crying, you there’s no voice in heaven. But I just felt in that moment God saying this is to show you and remind you that I am building this business with you and that I am the foundation of this. So your highs and lows are all going to have to be rooted in me in building this together. And really, there is no direct link between us and this incredible couple that are now still investors in our company. Seven years later, they saw our work online. They followed it and they were obedient to God in their giving. And I share this because it set the tone for the rest of our journey as a company. Today we start every meeting and every meeting and prayer. We create the space in our hiring process to say Colossians three twenty three is going to be our guiding sort of light and framework. And it challenges us to say, let’s work as something done for God, not for our human paycheck and not for any accolades. We create the space as well personally to fast weekly. And I do that because fasting has been a powerful physical expression of saying, God, I need you, but I want to work with you in building this organization. And we haven’t been perfect in modeling our, you know, our faith in God. And not everyone in the organization is a believer, but we’ve created the space that really invites God’s presence into our day to day decision making.

Rusty Rueff: That’s really great. When are we going to dove more into that? But I just have one more question for you. So I’m looking at your product lines here. And you have one product called the Tranquility Face. Now, you can see all of us here. Nobody else can.

Do you think that product could actually work on us? I mean, could it make us better?

William Norvell: And who have all of us needs it the most.

Kwami Williams: So let me just put myself in this and say that I use our oils and the tranquility. Oil is one of our scented oils every day, so I need it. And so I think all of us should use it.

And I personally use it as a beard oil to reduce irritation before and after shave. My wife is using as a lovely facial oil. My mom is using it as a hair oil. So it’s just as powerful. All-Purpose Moisturizing oil for your hair, face and body. I’m going to say we all need it and that’s why you should try it out.

Rusty Rueff: I just want someone to look at me and go, Hey, look at the tranquility in your face. I mean, that would just be a beautiful thing, especially right now at twenty twenty. All right. So William is all yours.

William Norvell: Has the as the only member of the team with a full beard, I take that as a backhanded way of saying William needs it the most.

Kwami Williams: But, you know, that’s it.

William Norvell: That’s all right. That’s all right.

Kwami, I want to dig a little deeper. And one thing we probably haven’t done on here in a while, I want to reread our mission statement, a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, because I think you are going to help us in this. And on the front page of our site, you read our mission to help entrepreneurs who are hard at work on the trail, who are often tired, exhausted, under-resourced and confused. They need rest, support, guidance and provisions as they get ready to head back on the trail to fight dragons. And in no time or is during this pandemic that we are all dealing with in different ways. And God is orchestrating his ways in different ways across the world. But I do know twenty, twenty years been a tough year in some ways for you and the company. And you’ve been so gracious to tell us that you wanted to share that with our audience. And I just think it’s going to be something they need to hear. And so if you could just share what challenges do you guys have faced and how God has walked with you through those.

Kwami Williams: Thank you so much, William. And. I just love the foundation that this mission statement sets, because we are living that to paint the picture for our audience today, starting January 20 19, we start to basically experience our own version of Job’s story. And for color, we’ve been growing at sort of seventy five percent CAGR as a business since inception. Twenty nineteen was supposed to be this big year. We had multimillion dollar contracts to supply companies and Whole Foods and Costco that retail Moringa products. And so there was just this year filled with so much hope and anticipation. And from the first day I come home from of in Ghana, you pray all throughout the night into the new year.

Come on. Supercharges during the first twenty nineteen and I get a call when I wake up on New Year’s Day that fifteen thousand trees were literally burning, that a wildfire had gone to our largest farm here in Ghana four months later in April twenty nineteen.

I also get another message saying that our factory was burning down to the ground and with it went over a million dollars worth of lost revenue assets and as well the livelihoods of job creation opportunity for over one hundred and eighty of our people on our team. And then fast forward a couple more months. A colleague passed away due to health complications and the very next month, the dam that’s upstream from our nuclease farm had an uncontrolled release and ultimately flooded parts of our farm. And to kind of end the year, a burglar broke into our office on Boxing Day the day after Christmas and stole a bunch of stuff. So twenty, nineteen, even before we get to twenty twenty years challenges, global challenges. Twenty nineteen was literally just like hell for us. And twenty twenty as we’ve all experienced. Covid pandemic hit everyone from the rural farmer to the biggest corporates. And for us during the lockdown months they passed about 90 percent of how we make money. It also touched me personally. In July of twenty twenty I got sick with covid. My wife and I both got sick with covid and we actually ended up having a miscarriage as well in that same month and then in September thinking that, OK, that hopefully that’s that’s it. That’s the last thing. In September of twenty twenty in one of our rural communities, three armed gunmen robbed three of my colleagues. They shot into our pickup truck and two were ultimately hit by the heavy ammunition. But by God’s grace, miraculously, they survived the shotgun heads and the AK 47 heads and are recovering post surgery.

And this specific attack is just it’s not Ghana. Ghana is extremely safe and it’s not even in this community. So it’s just a series of events where we have to pause and say, oh, God, what is happening?

Why is that happening? How do we even talk about this?

And so I think God has put not just myself, but our entire company on this sort of crash course of resilience and also of a reclarification and redefinition of our faith and so our love to maybe share some of the lessons that we’ve learned through these back to back adversities.

William Norvell: Thank you so much for sharing. And yeah, definitely. And I ask you to do that. And just that is a wilderness season and they’re littered through the scripture. I don’t know if this is from the Lord or not, but somebody once told me when I was going through a long one that, you know, God uses those mightly that he has taken to the wilderness first. And I don’t know if that hits where you are not. So take it from the Lord if it is and not if it’s not. But all of our heroes from the Bible have experienced things like this. And then I just am grateful for you sharing these stories with our listeners. And yeah, if you would, what has God taught you from these challenges and just. Yeah. Thank you for sharing.

Kwami Williams: Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me and the happiness of all of this. And for that word, I do think that there’s truth in that because so much of this season has been challenging me with a couple big questions. So I know the first one is what’s more important to me? Is it God or is it his gifts? And one of my colleagues, Peter Neila, always knows just the right things to said to me at the right time. He and my mom have that gift and he sent a video to me, I feel this year from 2010. And he shared C.S. Lewis, quote, says he has God and everything else has no more than he who has God alone.

And the day I first heard that, it just changed everything for me because I was so, so much of my Christian life has been a God. Can you give me this gift? He open this door for my company.

You bless my wife and I to that pregnancy will be successful. And these are amazing, good things that a good father wants to give, but I realize that God wasn’t enough for me and this season has got me to a place where God has become enough for me, where I adversity after adversity I can pause and I can just say, God, I love you. I believe and I know that you are good even without this good gift. And I think a related question that I’ve had to wrestle with in this season has been, you know, is God good in my life or in our lives as believers because he protects us from bad things or because his presence with us and I think is right.

So if he protects us from our pain or present with us in our pain and I think honestly, for most of my life, I just chose I want the keep the bad thing away.

And God has used this season to challenge me to get to a place where every day I get to say that your presence is what I want is what I desire.

And that has impacted where I find my identity. So is my identity. And walking in this calling to use botanicals to improve the lives of people or as my identity and just being loved by God.

And I think the last kind of high level question that has helped bring out some lessons for me is around this idea of am I working as as a slave or as a son of God? And I share that the point to the fact that most of the past seven years I’ve drank the Kool-Aid of grind and hustle as a founder, you know, days off and my phone is with me when I’m having dinner with my wife.

And there were seasons I remember when we first won the Forbes 30 under 30, I’ll sleep in with my laptop every day because I’m like, I have to do even more. And when the factory burned and when we that we had to completely restructure our business God said, I need to start resting.

I need you to start taking a sabbatical and you just start setting better boundaries for work. And, you know, it’s been twenty four months almost of back to back adversity, but and I have not perfected it.

But I can say that by God’s grace, I’m progressing in this and setting better boundaries and my wife will call me out if I stray too far. And so just to kind of some that up, I think the big lessons are around really loving God and pursuing God for him, not his gifts. Secondly, being excited and acknowledging that God is good because of his presence and our pain, not simply the times when he protects us from pain. And then I think a big lesson has been how do I work alongside God as a son who rests rather than a slave who is constantly striving and grinding and hustling without his loving father guiding him.

So I think those are the big things that have come out of this season for me as I think about my faith journey in the face of so much adversity.

Henry Kaestner: Wow. You know, I had thought that we’d hear about Ghana in an entrepreneurial story and learn about Moringa, but it’s really powerful just to hear that we all got something much, much more than we expected and grateful for your faithfulness and sharing your story and a lot of transparency and vulnerability and just really seeing faith at work. And I know that that’s an inspiration, encouragement to all of us.

William Norvell: I’m in and I love what you said. I would love to have this pastor. I’d like to have read a book, a new book by a guy named John Mark called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. And so I don’t know if it’s one to send you. I’ll happily buy it for you. It’s an incredible book, but he does a section on the word hustle and how it’s been co-opted. And, you know, the word actually, the definition means to move hurriedly or unceremoniously in a direction that’s not something to aspire to. The words the words been co-opted a little bit and like it’s definitely not biblical. And I love how you reframed that. And John, Mark does an incredible job. I’d love to hear him talk to entrepreneurs, but it’s all about trust. It comes from a quote from Dallas, Willard, that he asked one time and said, you know, what’s the biggest thing we should do to pursue Jesus?

And he said ruthlessly eliminate her. He said he said there he’s like, OK, what else? He’s like, that’s it. I’m done. So I thank you for that. And but you so you also have an interesting view there. I mean, so that’s your personal journey and what God’s taking you through. You’re also the leader of a company that has gone through these stresses. Not and I’m sure it sounds like just from getting to know you, that they probably walked alongside you through the personal struggles as well as the business struggles and the business is going through issues. How has that affected your organization and how is God equipped you to lead through this?

Kwami Williams: So first, my brother in Christ and colleague Peter Bieler, who I mentioned, always knows just the right thing to say, just yesterday was talking about the ruthless elimination of poverty. So he’s there with you. And I checked out the devotional in the Bible. So I got to taste a little bit of the book. But I think it’s worth diving in and actually reading it.

And to talk to your question about professionally how we’ve sort of navigated adversity and build resilience. I think the first thing is that the senior leadership team, we realized that we needed to self care because we were burning out or will burn out. And so for that, some of the biggest things that we did practically is create space. My co-founder Emily Create Space for a mindfulness meditation for me was a lot around writing down things I’m grateful for every day because I just changed my lens beyond sort of the caring for a mind. All of us have gone into wellness and fitness and so caring for our bodies just so we can actually endure the emotional, physical, mental, intellectual toll of what’s happening. And then in the organization itself. And we really double down on two simple frameworks. So one is start, stop, continue says what can I start today? That is going great. What do I need to stop? That’s not working. And what should we continue? And then a second framework, the growth framework. What’s our goal? What are the options that we have? And then what is the reality on the ground and what’s the way forward? And we took these frameworks as a way to just sit down and dissect our business. It meant we had to lay off our staff who were connected to the factory. That’s the most painful thing I’ve ever had to do as a leader. But then in that pain, we also created opportunities for those who knew how to sew, started making masks to support covid. And we raised our own capital. We really donated our savings to create an unemployment fund to serve those who don’t have a safety net. On the product side, we launched a couple of new skills and these skills actually became the trigger to get into Whole Foods in New England. So in our grocery at the worst possible time, the expansion of our product line doubling down or triggering a brand, companies getting to Whole Foods at the end of twenty nineteen and at the end of twenty twenty, that’s helped us get into Costco. And I think that basically taking these frameworks ultimately has helped us run lean experiments that have unlocked opportunity. And as we end twenty twenty, we’ve grown revenue by almost three times that of twenty nineteen. So we’re really excited that God has blessed these small efforts to really say, what can I start, what can I stop, what can I continue. And as well, how do I grow even in the face of adversity?

William Norvell: Amen, amen. And as we come near to our close, I would love to know as someone who’s on the ground working with entrepreneurs, I know you’re involved with so many. I think it’s a group of us, I think speak for the three of us. We’ve just collectively been inspired by the continent of Africa and what is going on there and just, you know, shame on us for missing it and not seeing the amazing opportunity and growth and looking past it. And so I would love for you maybe to give a pitch as well while you’re on this podcast. What’s your vision for the future of Ghana specifically? And maybe if you have one for Africa, what could entrepreneurship do for the country of Ghana and the continent of Africa?

William Norvell: That’s a great question. I think it’s been said that, you know, talent is everywhere, but opportunity isn’t that thing. That’s really the case. When you think about Ghana on the African continent, my sort of vision is to unleash the entrepreneurial capacity of people on the African continent.

I believe that Africans should be the one in the driver’s seat to solve the injustice of poverty, to create opportunities that improve the livelihoods of their communities, their cities, their countries. And we need allies from around the world in that partnership. But I think that it’s basically saying if the right acting come alongside African entrepreneurs, if they’re the coaching the capital, the community, the connections can create a conducive ecosystem, that we can transform this continent and take it from the economist, call it a hopeless continent to one that’s actually a beacon of excellence across every industry that we can imagine. And for me, the poorest demographic in our world today, our real farmers. And so, so much of how I think we can do this is creating opportunities that increase the income and improve the livelihoods of women and farming families all across the African continent.

William Norvell: Oh, that’s amazing. Thank you. And that’s Henry alluded to in the beginning. We are going to come to a close and we’re going to ask our favorite question. And we’ve recently been led by the spirit to ask a second question. So if you haven’t listened to the recent podcast, this may be new, but we’d love to invite you to share with our listeners. Where God has you in his word right now, where he has you in his scripture and what he may be teaching you, it could be something that you’ve been studying this season, could be something that he told you this morning through your mom or your business partner. And then secondarily, how can we be praying for you and how can we be praying and our listeners be praying for True Moringa?

Kwami Williams: A funny story is that my mom did send this verse to me this morning. It was her verse of the day, but it has been the verse that I have found so much comforting in the season.

And it’s Isaiah. Forty three, one to two. And I love to just sort of read it. And when I do, I insert my name just to make it as powerful as possible. And it’s the same. But now, Kwami, listen to the Lord who created you, Kwami, the one who formed you cells. Do not be afraid for I have sinned. You I have called you by name. You are mine when you go through the deep waters, I will be with you. When you go through the rivers of difficulty, you will not drown. When you walk through the fire of oppression, you will not be burned up. The flames will not consume you. And it resonates because we’ve literally gone through the flood, the fire, the oppression in a physical sense, and God has been faithful to it all. And so I hope this speaks to anyone who is going through any difficulty, especially with what twenty, twenty and covid-19 has brought to the world and just know that God is real. He loves you and he is presence in the most painful things.

William Norvell: Amen. And how can we be praying for you and your company?

Kwami Williams: True Moringa is at an inflection point. We’re grateful to God for the ability to be growing over one hundred and fifty four percent year over year. And so the keeper now is for like minded investors to partner with us to support our growth beyond this year. And I think that’s going to be the biggest sort of catalyst to our future as we work to improve the lives of farmers here in Ghana.

Derrick Morgan: I would like a year for year five, twenty five, twenty six years old and already getting my MBA. But I was like, OK, I’ve got to really start being way more intentional about how I’m set myself up for after the game. And so moments like that in conversations like that, like really helped propel me and position me and like really helped shape my thinking on how I was going to do just that. And so I’m thankful for those words from Takeo and I feel like I took advantage of my time in the NFL and a really good way.

Henry Kaestner: Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special crossover podcast between the Faith Driven Athlete and the Faith Driven Investor. Our guest today is Derrick Morgan. He’s the managing partner of KMG, D.M. Group, just like you think, the Kingdom Group. Before his career as an investor, Derrick played nine years in the NFL as a linebacker. During that time, he kept his sights on life after football and he was inspired by the idea of impact investing. Now he’s leading the charge and opportunity zone investments while also encouraging professional athletes to begin to think long term about their use of capital. You may have heard him speak at the Faith Driven Investor conference, but you’re going to love the full conversation that we had with him.

Henry Kaestner: Let’s listen in now to Derek. We’re so glad to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us.

Derrick Morgan: Yeah, I appreciate you guys. Glad to be here.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, we’re going to talk football. We can talk, invest in and excited about all that. Before we do that, though, as we do with all of our guests. Love to hear about your early life. What was it like growing up in the Morgan family? And when was faith introduced into your life?

Derrick Morgan: Yeah, I was actually a part of the Swiger family growing up. Yeah. My mom and my dad, they split pretty early on and was raised primarily by my mother, then my grandparents and talking before we jumped online here. That about my upbringing the first couple of years was primarily with my grandparents and they lived in Amish country Pennsylvania. Right. So right outside of like Lancaster area, you know, I used to get babysat by an Amish family, so I was riding in the horse and buggy and like on the farm. And so pretty unique, you know, a couple first couple of years.

Henry Kaestner: It’s not like they just parked in front of the TV and just tell you to be quiet.

Derrick Morgan: Oh, no, you’re out there with the animals and you’re actually, you know, in nature. And so then we transition to a different, very different environment where it was more like in the city. So public housing and it was a very underserved community. And so I kind of like seeing both sides and have a unique perspective on different walks of life that I’ve been encountered with. And so, you know, my mom, my grandparents really instilled faith in me from an early age. My granddad was a minister. And so I grew up in church. I used to catch a bus to church. Sometimes my mom couldn’t make it, so I was always searched. So I had that foundation that was set for me and modeled for me from an early age.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. So tell us, when did you start playing football and when did it transition into something you knew that you loved and you had a future in it?

Derrick Morgan: I started playing football when I was nine, and I remember it because I was bigger than most the other kids and there was weight classes, right? So I remember it was like one hundred and twenty pound weight class and maybe I was 10 or 11 at the time, but then I would never make my weight. And so I had like this weight anxiety at like 10, 11 years old because I knew it every game you’re gonna weigh it. And so we decided, you know what, I’m just going to start playing up right now.

At 19, I was playing with like 11 and 12, 13 year olds we thought that’d help me. Right. And so that’s when I started. And really, I would say like sophomore year high school is when I really start focusing on, you know, getting a scholarship from the game of football. Like, to me that was like the Holy Grail. Like, if I could go Division one and get a scholarship, like I made it right. So that’s where I put all my focus. I stopped playing baseball, stopped playing basketball, and I just went all the way in football. And so it worked out. God blessed me with a great high school career, ended up being the number one player in the state my senior year and a lot of offers on the table ended up going to Georgia Tech. And so from there, really the rest is history. And I was able to play nine years with the Titans, same team throughout my whole career, which was a blessing in and of itself. But I just feel very fortunate, man, that I was able to live out a childhood dream and have the experiences of which I did.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to talk a little bit more about football before we get into the investing, which is something that’s really important to a lot of our audience, all of our audience. You are in the fourth game of your rookie season. You blow out your ACL and all of a sudden life is completely turned upside down. So you’ve been working on this, as you just talked about it, from high school through to college, get a Division One scholarship. You’re in now. You’re in the NFL. It’s the fourth game, your rookie season, and suddenly all that you’ve worked for is turned upside down. What was that like? What was the emotions of heaven? Just orient yourself towards this rookie season being in the NFL and then all of a sudden just turn upside down.

Derrick Morgan: It was heavy, it was very devastating to me, I had staked a lot of my identity, if not all of it, in being a football player, and up until that point, I had really experienced no real adversity.

And so I was out of the way. Right. This has worked so far. Got me to the NFL and everything else is gravy. And when I injured myself, I was in complete denial for literally almost a week. I was like, you know, the MRI is wrong. You know, I can still walk. I ran off the field. So, like, I think I can just get through, put a brace on. I was in straight up denial. And it wasn’t until, like, I was sitting there reviewing with the doctor and he was pointing out like, look, this is where your ACL is supposed to be connected and it’s no longer connected. At that moment the severity of it really kind of like fell on top of me. And from that moment was probably one of my lowest moments.

And I had to, like, really crawl out of that pit. But a lot of the way out was really as a direct result of my faith in God, given me the awareness of my identity and how false of an identity I had built up and being an athlete and how fragile and how fleeting that was. And so I had to really dig deep and really resolidify my relationship with God, because what I had been so afraid to do my whole life up until that point was to say the prayer of “God, not my will, but your will be done”. I was terrified of that prayer because in my mind, all that meant to me was, oh, man, like the complete opposite of what I want to happen is going to happen. Right. So I would avoid it. And I was like, nah, like God. Like I got my own plan. So come on, get on board. Right. Yeah, we all know it doesn’t work like that. And it took that shake up and that wake up call really to reorient me and change my trajectory in life because I was headed down a path of really just self-destruction. And so from that moment on, you know, it wasn’t a instant overnight transformation like I saw in the Bible, like it wasn’t like that.

But it was like man like that was the Genesis moment of restructuring and reshaping my identity. And so while it was a tragedy in the natural, in the spiritual, it was really a miracle because I feel like I’ve always had a lot of people praying for me. Yeah. And God knew what I needed. And when I look back 10 years, it’s actually ten years now.

I look back and it’s like I was like, what would my life have been if I didn’t have that moment? Right. And so I feel actually very grateful for that adversity that hit an early age.

Henry Kaestner: You know, it seems really interesting to me because I think you’re well known within the league and there’s a great we’re going to have a video clip that James Brown had done talking about the work that you’re doing in Coatesville that just talks about the work that you started to do while you’re still in the NFL. So many professional athletes that we hear about just hit this retirement place. And just like, well, what do I do next? Their identity being so wrapped up. So what I’m hearing you say is that before your NFL career even really started, God sent you on this identity and reset your identity and then allowed you to kind of get a head start because it feels like you’ve retired now. You spent a great decade in the NFL, but you’ve got this momentum coming out of the NFL into your next career and how you think about life that seem to have started well before, obviously, your NFL career ended. Tell us about that. And did that kind of come out of that experience when you had the ACL tear?

Derrick Morgan: Yeah, you encapsulated it very well. It was a sequence of events, right? That was the starting point.

And that led to like the next iteration and refinement.

So it was like a series of events from the ACL to having my son when I was twenty two to losing money with a financial adviser to like taking a hold of my financial destiny in my own hands and like going and getting my MBA. So it was a string of events that they played off of each other and it was like the next step to the next steps, the next step. So it was a constant evolution. Right. And so what I would agree with is the moment where you feel like you lost it all, which is where I was when I tore my ACL. It jolted me to reckon with the idea of not being an athlete and not having football. So when I was in that moment of thinking that my career was over, I was like, oh, shoot, I have a son on the way. My career could be over, like, what am I going to do? I don’t really know who I was. And I had to find out who I was A and what my interests were, what I like. What I didn’t like, I had to really understand who I was, and then that kind of naturally led me into different opportunities that really afforded me the idea of like thinking about life after football and how could I leverage the platform while I have it to, like you said, create that momentum for when I do hang them up, what’s going to be my legacy? What’s going to be my future off the field? Right. And so I remember to this day being in my MBA program and there’s this guy named Takeo Spikes, you may have heard of him. He’s a perennial pro bowler, probably has a shot at the Hall of Fame and was a real, real big voice in my life through just our brief relationship with the NBA program that we both were attending. And I remember I’ll never forget, he said, hey D, I just gotten like my second contract. He’s like, Look, man, I know you poppin right now, but just understand that it’s a little bit different on this side. And I was like, What? You mean like, look, you know, you ain’t going to have a shield, which you write. People know who you are, but it’s going to be a lot easier for you to get a meeting right now. There may be one, two or three years removed from the league. I was like, dang, even for you, you played 15 years in the league, but you’re Takeo Spikes for him to say that and other guys of that caliber to echo that sentiment. I was like, whoa, like this thing really does come to an end very abruptly. And so that always stood out to me and always resonated. I was like, OK, I was like a year for year five, twenty five, twenty six years old and already getting my MBA. But I was like, OK, I’ve got to really start being way more intentional about how I’m set myself up for after the game. And so moments like that and conversations like that, like really helped propel me and position me and like really helped shape my thinking on how I was going to do just that. And so I’m thankful for those words from Takeo and I feel like I took advantage of my time in the NFL and a really good way.

Henry Kaestner: So talk to us about what you’re doing now. Talk to us about what you started to think about and just the genesis of it all. So obviously, you’ve got this, Terry. You’ve got a great mentor. You’re getting your MBA. And how do you think about applying it? One of the idea of real estate investing start to occur to you.

Derrick Morgan: So it’s interesting how it all kind of transpired. We originally were like, hey, look, we’re going to raise this large fund. You know, we’re going to just kind of use our network for deal flow and we’re going to carry this investment pipeline and we’re going to invest in projects that fit our thesis. Great. Let’s go start a fund. What we quickly realized was that especially in the opportunity’s own space, there was a very big, very large appetite for projects, specific deals. Right. So instead of saying, hey, I have this project pipeline of 200 billion dollars over the next couple of years, give me your capital gains like it was more so like now, like, I want to see specific returns. I want to see specific metrics and outcomes and exits. And so for us as first time fund managers without a huge amount of track record, what we essentially pivoted towards is to develop role. Right. And so when we first started, that was we went back to my hometown and Coatesville. I look like there’s a lot of issues here. Let’s try to find some consensus on what the issues are. And we started talking to everybody from state senators to state reps to city officials to nonprofits, churches, the whole litany of stakeholders.

And we started putting together a plan and about two or three months into it, one of our consultants at the time we were having a conversation about we got to bring in a developer. And she was like, well, you’re the developer. And I was like, well, I am like, yeah, you’re bringing this vision to fruition. Now. I’m a developer. So obviously we needed to partner with people who have experience and understand how to manage projects and all that. But at the same time, a large chunk of the developer role is bringing together the necessary pieces of orchestrating all of those things. And so that’s essentially what we had been doing. And so from that moment, we’re like, yeah, like I like this situation better. I like being a direct influence over the deal in the project. And I feel way more comfortable going out to my network of potential employees to say, look, I know what this deal is going to return like. Not no, but I have a good understanding of the deal parameters. And this is your return profile. This is your risk profile. And I have a direct influence over the deal. And so that’s essentially the role in which we’ve kind of settled in, is being project developers and then obviously bringing in the necessary pieces to the team to fill any voids and experience or expertize. And so that’s essentially the role we can play. And we’ve done it in my hometown of Coatesville. We’re doing that out here in Nashville. We’re forming a venture with the housing authority to do this thing and wrapping amenities in our community. And so that’s essentially what came to me, is we have our construction operation that’s based in the southeast as well, and then we’re bringing projects to light and together, essentially, we’re bringing the actual equity to the deals on a project by project basis.

Henry Kaestner: So walk us through some of the projects that you’re working on in Coatesville. What’s it look like? What’s the opportunity? You see, just take us through the actual deals that you’re doing.

Derrick Morgan: Yes, so Coatesville, we have a twenty two acre parcel in the direct main and main of that town. And so twenty two acres, the one thing that we found to our conversations with the community is like there’s nothing for the youth to do. There’s no there’s no youth engagement.

There’s significant gang activity because there’s just nothing for the youth of Coatesville to do is actually eerie. Like I went back a couple months ago and it was actually a day off school and there were no kids in the streets that was like, this is very odd. Right. And so all the kids were either playing video games, watch TV, whatever. And so what we’ve essentially done is like, OK, we hear that problem. What assets does the community of Coatesville already have? What are the valuable assets that Coatesville already possesses? And the one thing that community development. Exactly. Exactly. One of my pastors sent me to a book a few years ago. So looking at the assets. Right. And understanding, OK, you know what? Coatesville doesn’t have the best reputation. Right. However, one thing that we are known for is sports. So how can we leverage that as an asset to bring people into Coatesville to increase the economy, to spend their dollar in Coatesville, which then results in other businesses, winning as a whole ecosystem effect? And so what we’ve essentially put together is a sports complex which has basketball courts and indoor turf field, outdoor turf, field programing, space for classroom, and non-profits and educational services, and then a food and retail hall that is adjacent to the actual sports complex. And so we see this as being a very inclusive development that is going to spawn other economic activity in the actual core of Coatesville. And so that’s one project that’s about one hundred and fourteen thousand square feet. All in project cost is around twenty three million. And we’re looking to leverage things like the opportunity zone as well as new market tax credits to fill up the capital stack.

Henry Kaestner: And how about leveraging the whole move to youth sports in America? As a dad of three teenage boys, the sports industry is just taking off. And if you’re that close to Philadelphia and you’ve got field space, that’s a big deal.

Derrick Morgan: Absolutely. Absolutely. On the head, the sports tourism market is exploding. And in the geography of Coatesville, we’re very centrally located within like a 60 mile radius. We’re touching a population of almost 12 million people. So it’s like very centrally located. Right. And so we’re looking to leverage that and leverage the increasing demand of sports tourism. Right. And so, like, obviously, the current environment is tied up in the air, but we’re hoping that by the time this thing opens, we’ll be back in somewhat of a normal environment for that. And so that’s the coastal project. The project in Nashville is a hundred and three unit mixed income development in conjunction with the housing authority. So what they’re doing is this part of a grander master plan where they’re redeveloping twenty five hundred units across the largest public housing project in Nashville. And so the good the actually unique thing about what they’re doing is a mixed income. But the other piece of this is that they’re actually not displacing one resident. So they’re actually transitioning the existing low income housing residents to the new town homes market looking like apartments and condos. They’re just transitioning them. And then, oh, by the way, your next door neighbor might be a lawyer, right? Or a teacher or a fireman saying so this is inclusive type of model that I was really drawn to. And we found a way to strike a partnership that is very mutually beneficial. So that is a hundred and three unit mixed income and as well as an activity center that’s immersed within the development. So football, football and outdoor field basketball court, very similar to Coatesville, but a little bit smaller scale and then a daycare and different programing space based on what the needs of the community are. And so we feel like we’re addressing a lot of different things and a lot of a lot of boxes.

Henry Kaestner: So, Derek, tell us about I know you’ve talked about being motivated by your faith and seeing these opportunities both in your hometown and also in Nashville. Talk to us about how your faith plays itself out in these different investment projects.

Derrick Morgan: Yes, there’s a couple of different ways to model it. I strongly believe in you shouldn’t have to tell people that you’re a Christian. They should just recognize you by your works and how you walk and how you model your life after Christ. So a big part of what we do is really modeling and like showing up in the nature of Christ. Obviously, we’re all flawed. I’m not perfect, but I’m very intentional about how I do business, the ethics and the morality in which govern my life and the values which govern the way we invest in the projects and our approach.

Right. So I’m hoping that we stand apart in some regards from a traditional. Way of doing business just by how we conduct ourselves in the actual developments and projects. Our goal is to partner with faith based organizations. So push out content and curriculum and programing that is faith based and able to easily get implemented within the developments of which we’re doing so. If we have facilities and recreational spaces, there will be programing space, available classroom setups, different ways for people to congregate, whether it’s through Bible study, Life groups and overall just good mentorship. And so that’s how we see faith being activated and being intentional about spreading the gospel within the actual developments.

Henry Kaestner: Awesome. We like to ask every guest that’s on our program if there’s something that they’ve been hearing from God through the Bible recently that’s impacted your life. Do you have something that’s top of mind?

Derrick Morgan: I don’t know if it’s like a specific verse, but the one thing that’s been on my spirit is like I’ve been feeling like a heaviness on my spirit as of late. And I think a lot of it is related to a lot of unknown. With real estate development. There’s always a lot of unknown factors. And, you know, sometimes doubt can start to seep in. And so I’ve been feeling like this opposition and this heaviness on me. And through that, you know, very recently as a couple of days ago, and we’re kind of hearing God say like push through it, push through that adversity and that opposition that you feel. Because if that is the enemy, if that is negative energy, negative spirits coming towards you or strongholds like you have been set here to penetrate that and push through it. And, you know, God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of sound mind and strength and discipline. And I probably messed up that verse. But like, that’s the essence of how it speaks to me. Right.

And so that is something that I’ve been kind of meditating on as of late. And I’ve just been here and got to say, like, keep pushing, keep pushing and pushing.

Henry Kaestner: Heavenly Father, we lift up Derek and we ask that you would give him indeed the spirit of peace and have courage and perseverance and that he would feel your peace in your guidance and that you give him favor in this season of life. Derrick, I’m going to ask you one last question. You got a 10 year old boy and a lot of people are going to be knowing that his dad’s a famous person. And so tell me, do you think that he feels undue pressure to go out there and be a real estate developer?

Derrick Morgan: No, he feels undue. I would say that he probably feels pressure to be a football player. I know. I know was partially kidding you. But we got an audience of real estate investors and they think, of course, that theirs is a really important vacation.

Derrick Morgan: You know, he actually he’s like, Dad, you’re a developer, right? I’m like, yeah. He’s like, OK. Does that mean you just buy buildings come? Yeah, basically. And so, you know, for my son, I always tell them, like, look, man, like guys made you unique. Like, you know, I know when you see people come up to me in public or ask for a picture or something like that, he actually loves it. My son is like an extrovert, so like he loves the attention. I don’t even, like, encourage him to play football. Right. And that’s something he wants to do. Maybe I’ll let him play contact football at 13, 14. But like, I’m not really pushing that right. I know how my body feels after nine surgeries. And so for him, it’s like, son, you’re unique. Right. I’m here to support you. Whatever you want to do to help guide you. Well, you got to ask God what your unique gifts are that you’re going to give to the world. So it’s going to it may look different than what Dad’s doing. Right. So I just try to encourage them in that way.

Henry Kaestner: Derek, thank you very much for your time. It’s been great being with you. Thank you for sharing your story. Awesome. Thanks for having me on.

Aimee Minnich: I was 17 when my dad died. My inheritance was a baby blue plastic trash bin full of quarters. My dad seven years sobriety coin from AA and his prayers. My parents marriage had dissolved when I was seven and I lived with my mom after that. But my dad had done his best to share with us five kids the faith that he discovered on his journey to sobriety. By the grace of God, I went to college and law school on a full ride scholarship, and while I was in my first year of school, first year of law school, my mom and stepdad took their company public. It was a fast, wild ride from nothing to IPO. And since then I’ve sat through family meetings with wealth helpers to discuss the portfolio, and I’ve suffered through the painful estate planning meetings. I tell you this to say that I have seen and personally lived through both ends of the wealth spectrum and it’s given me a lot of opportunity to think about what it means to live a successful life. Is it being able to buy a Lamborghini or a yacht so that I can demonstrate to the world that I made it that I was a success? Is it being able to leave as much as possible to my family and pay as little as possible on estate taxes? You might be wondering what in the world this has to do with the conference for investors. You see, I’ve decided that the best way I can spend my working life is to help families like mine steward their resources, financial, spiritual and social to the best of their abilities and to the glory of God. For families with significant wealth, a lot of it looks like investing. It’s what compels the work that I do now at Impact Foundation, where we help families invest charitable capital in businesses that create jobs, share the gospel and contribute to human flourishing. So what’s the measure of success? I think we all want to get to the end of days and here. Well done, my beloved child. And we’re just doing our best to figure out what that means. We want to be excellent in the craft of investing, but I’m afraid sometimes I and other Faith Driven Investor used the wrong definition of excellence, just as the kingdom of this world misses what it means to live a successful life, so too it gives us an inadequate definition of what makes a successful investment portfolio. The world says, minimize the risk of losing your capital, maximize financial return and invest for the time horizon of your own life and maybe the life of your kids. But risk reward and time horizon have very different meanings in the kingdom of God. Jesus says if anybody wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross and follow me. It’s pretty risky on its face, but God’s omnipotent and good, his time horizon is eternal and we’re really just his money managers, which means the only meaningful risk we can encounter is to disobey his commands or ignore his invitations. So let’s ask then whether his word gives us any indication of how we should invest in scripture. We see at least four uses of capital commended. We’re familiar with the first three charity tithing and traditional investing for return. And to be clear, those are all worthy of our time, effort and money. But I want to focus on gleaning. It’s the most misunderstood and unaddressed but really important uses of capital. Remember how Ruth gathered around the edges of Boaz’ field in the Book of Ruth? Boaz was following the command from Leviticus 19 and 23 to allow for gleaning. The Theology Work Project explains gleaning is a process in which landowners have an obligation to provide the poor and marginalized access to the means of production, which in Leviticus was the land. And to work it themselves, unlike charity, does not depend on the generosity of landowners. Also, unlike charity, it was not given to the poor as a transfer payment. Through gleaning, the poor earned their living the same way as the landowners did by working the fields with their own neighbors. It was simply a command that everyone had a right to access the means of provision created by God. Our economies may not be agrarian anymore, but gleaning nevertheless is instructive for all of us because it has to do with provision rather than harvesting crops. I’ve observed sometimes it’s easier to practice gleaning within our own companies than it is to understand how to do it as investors. I think many of us are afraid to consider investment gleaning because it seems that accepting less than full market rate returns is the purview of the unsophisticated. If I lend money at eight percent and somebody else gets 15 percent. Doesn’t that make me the chump? Plus, people fear that it provides an excuse for lack of excellence from an entrepreneur. Those things certainly could be the causes of poor returns, but that’s not what gleaning entails. True gleaning involves excellence, access, work and sacrifice. In ancient times, a farmer there was leaving some of those fields and unharvested. It meant that he had to be even more efficient, more effective with the portions he was working in order to make enough to feed his own household and follow the command to allow room around the edges. A follower of God had to be the very best farmer around. Excellence is always a hallmark of gleaning. David Simms and John Halverson, at Talanton, are doing an amazing job as they back small and medium sized companies in Kenya and other parts of Africa. They’re demonstrating excellence in their company selection and management, even as they expect less than market rate returns. The next two parts of gleaning access and work, they go together gleaning access to the poor and marginalized for the poor and marginalized. And it’s not the same thing as a handout. Access to the means of production means work for wages. I wouldn’t ever, ever advocate eliminating charity, but I do fear that if we aren’t creating pathways to employment through our philanthropic capital, then we may be doing more harm than good. If you’ve been to Haiti, you’ve seen this firsthand. There are instances where aid given to the poor and marginalized can create access. Scholarships for education or career training are great examples. So as aid in the context of a natural disaster or mass displacement. But at some point we have to begin asking ourselves when does access and helping me find a job rather than another handout for Garfield Produce in Chicago, Access looks like employing former gang members from Chicago’s South Side to grow micro greens, which they sell to restaurants or they used to before covid. Their investors are expecting maybe to get their original loan back, but with no interest. That’s investment gleaning. Sacrifice is the last hallmark of gleaning, and it’s also the scariest until we actually do it. Gleaning means the difference between an eight percent return that creates 100 jobs or a 15 percent return that creates 50 jobs. What looks like sacrifice to others often feels like simple obedience to the person making the sacrifice. If the God of Heaven instructs us to do something, following in obedience is probably the safest bet when we get to the pearly gates. I don’t think he’s going to ask us whether we got a 15 percent IRR or beat our benchmarks. But I am confident that what we do for the least of these, the ways in which we take care of his children who are poor and marginalized will be remembered. So next time you’re looking at an eight percent return that creates a hundred jobs, how might you respond?