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Chip Mahan has built his career revolutionizing the banking industry. He founded and currently serves as CEO and chairman of Live Oak Bankshares, headquartered in Wilmington, NC. Its commercial banking subsidiary, Live Oak Bank, specializes in providing lending and deposit services to small businesses nationwide. Chip joins us on the Faith Driven Investor Podcast to talk more about investing in technology that helps banks of all sizes innovate and cut through the red tape.

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HOPE International was founded in Ukraine 25 years ago. Since then, they’ve invested in the dreams of thousands of Ukrainian entrepreneurs and farmers. They’ve seen families work their way out of poverty and lives changed by the Gospel. HOPE International President and CEO, Peter Greer, joins us today to invite the global community of Faith Driven Entrepreneurs and Investors to take action in a real, meaningful, and lasting way.

Episode Transcript

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to a special edition of the Faith Driven Investor podcast today we’ve got a special guest great friend of mine, Peter Career with us from Hope International and Peter. As so many of you will know, Rise, an incredible organization called Hope International, which focuses on Christ centered economic development, savings plans, savings groups, rather microfinance smear loans and assistance. And he does that and just pretty much all over the world and many, many countries that we’ll hear about. But one of those countries is particularly special to him and to the staff of Hope International, and that is the Ukraine. It’s in fact where Hope got started just about 25 years ago. He has 47 employees that are on the ground. He’s been coordinating a work with them to make sure they and their families are set, and he is in a great spot to give us a sense as to what’s going on in the ground. Hopefully not to put too much pressure on my great friend, but hopefully will give us a good flyover and help us to understand a bit more about what’s going on. There may maybe some of the history and some of the ethnicity and in some of what’s happened over the course of the last week in a way that you will be able to understand the conflict and understand what’s going on through the lives of those he knows on the ground in a way that would be different than to CNN or BBC. But hopefully you will leave our time together with a sense of what God is doing in the world, how he might call you into it. And at the very least, a way to pray differently about Ukraine in this crisis. Peter, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: Thank you, Henry. So good to be with you.

Henry Kaestner: Awesome, have you? So we’re going to put this in the show notes, but I listen to a video presentation that you gave and event for the Denver Institute of Faith and Work last Tuesday or Wednesday, shortly after the conflict started. You know, it’s beautiful. It, it’s just awesome. And so I’m really grateful for you to be able to share some of that, some of the lessons of hope amidst a very tragic backdrop. But before we get into some of the things that you shared with that audience, give us, give us a sit rep. Tell us what’s going on today, please.

Peter Greer: Yeah, thanks, Henry. And I mean, the situation continues to rapidly change and we are continuing to pray for peace that this invasion would be over. But every day we’re in contact with the staff in Ukraine. As you said, Henry, 47, staff around the country, not all of them have been able to get to the West. Some are still very much in conflict zones, very close to the fighting. And I mean, you when you love someone, when they go through pain, you feel just a little bit of it to you. And I think that’s really just for the entire organization right now, all of the other countries feeling just a little bit of that, of that pain that our friends are experiencing right now. So in terms of what’s happening, there continues to be a mass exodus of individuals who are able to get out of Ukraine, estimated the right now 1.5 million people have evacuated. We know that males ages 18 to 60 are not able to exit, so there’s still a lot that are in country, but a lot of movement. I am thankful that the global business community is continuing to put pressure on Russia and Henry to think about the impact of business and this story that continues to unfold about a growing number of companies that are saying this is not OK and trying to figure out ways to make sure that the nation of Russia understands a little bit so really encouraged actually by what MasterCard, Visa, American Express are doing. Apple and a number of different companies that are saying we are going to suspend work in Russia as a way of trying to increase pressure on Vladimir Putin for this invasion to end. And in the midst of all of it, just an incredible show of solidarity and support among Ukrainians. The spirit of unity in Ukraine is so strong, and I have just the highest respect for our brothers and sisters right there that are facing incredible challenge and yet doing it with a spirit of unity that you have the world is seeing. So they’re continuing to pray for the peace talks, continuing to pray for peace and for all of us trying to figure out what does it look like to pray and to act in ways that very quickly, as soon as possible, this conflict will be over.

Henry Kaestner: Touch us a bit about the unity that you just mentioned. There are hope and there’s there’s a map. Hopefully we’ll have in the show notes to that shows where hope employees are and where there is conflict and their hope employees on the traditional Russian speaking side on the Far East and the Ukraine, and then also in the Ukrainian speaking side. Talk to us about this unity. One of the things that lots of us have been a little bit of a crash course on over the last two or three weeks is this kind of history of Ukraine, some different groups. And yet it’s not like all the Russian speakers are just like, can’t wait to be joined with the motherland, right? It seems quite the opposite.

Peter Greer: I think so. Within any country and. Any time we even have a conversation like this, it is real difficult to get to the overall, what is true in one region might be a little bit different for another region. And there certainly is nuance in the Donbass region. There certainly is history, right? But I think for me, the peace that has been a lesson for the world is what Zelensky has done and leading in a way of really coming back to that identity, coming back to who we are as a free nation, as Ukraine and watching the way that this truly has brought the nation together. And not just that, but I even think about my colleagues here at Hope International. The number of us you can’t see on video, but there’s a lot of blue and yellow that is being worn on that. And I think for you and me, Henry as followers of Jesus, a backdrop of pain and war and difficulty. This has always been a moment when the church shows up. The way the global church has showed up has been absolutely amazing and inspiring right now. So we have partners in Romania and Moldova and immediately for them to reach out to their colleagues in Ukraine and say if anyone needs to get out of the country, family members, we are here. We will meet you at the border. We will make sure you are in a safe spot and there is nothing we would not do for you. And that’s what we’re seeing from the Romanian church. That’s what we’re seeing from the Moldovan church. That’s what we’re seeing as individuals come in. And then even for organizations, Henry, just in the last several days, compassion international reaching out to their whole, you know, kind of support and saying Our friends hope international. They are in Ukraine. They’ve been in Ukraine for 25 years. They’re going to be there. And not just that and then us trying to point people to other organizations that are doing great relief work and celebrating the work of water mission. And there’s so many and I just love the way that this truly is bringing together the global church as it should. A moment of crisis should bring the church together and in a way that is so inspiring where it is not about organizational logos. This is about the global collective body saying, What can we do to make a difference for our brothers and sisters that are experiencing real suffering right now? So it has been a beautiful picture of unity at a national level for Ukraine. But I think it’s also been a beautiful picture of unity for the global church right now to

Henry Kaestner: tell us a bit about the size and scope of your ministry. I know you’ve got 47 employees. You were founded in the Ukraine. I actually want to get to their founding story a little bit because I know that we’ve had you on the podcast before, but I don’t know that we’ve gotten into that as much because now it’s so relevant. But who do those forty seven employees serve? And also tell us a bit about what we’re hearing on the ground from some of those hope clients.

Peter Greer: And the first thing that comes to mind, Henry, is just there is there is a fatigue that is very real. You hear it, you see it. You cannot live in a situation of that type of stress and concern for your kids, for your family members and it not take a toll. And now we are not on day one or two or three. This is long term stress and it is it is taking a toll on our friends. So I think that’s the reality of war, conflict, fear that impacts every part. You are not sleeping, unable to to eat. When you are focused on survival, you think about those families that are living in the subway. And if you’ve been in a Ukrainian subway mean built as bomb shelters, they are so incredibly deep. And that’s where families are living right now again. And it’s not short term now. It is going to be measured in weeks, not days of how long families are going to be living in that type of stressful situation. So clients, staff, the broader country is experiencing a level of trauma right now that is very real, very, very, very real. And when I think about the impact on the clients, we always know that it is the most vulnerable that are impacted the most severely. So, yeah, I mean, focusing on where do we get food focused on what is the safest place and and we can’t get there. The cities are shut off. As you said, 70 percent of our work is in the east in areas that now were under Russian control or still at the very forefront of the fighting. And if you saw the recent headlines of the nuclear power plant in Russia, that is the founding city of Hope, international and staff and lots of clients that are in that area. So I think that to me is just the reality of chronic fear and stress and the impact that that has on on an individual and at the same time, courage and compassion. We are seeing a response that is so unbelievably inspiring of people that are willing to sacrifice. Or someone else? Yeah, so there’s so much more that could be, said Henry, but that’s yeah, I think that’s

Henry Kaestner: give us a quick overview of the history, but then talk to us and bring that into the services and how a business in Ukraine will interact with you and the type of financial services that you provide. I think it’s important for us as an audience of investors to understand what does it look like to invest in businesses in a place like the Ukraine? And it may be too early for us to talk to you about, well, what is it look like to invest in businesses in Ukraine immediately after this? It’s probably too early. And yet you probably have a sense of what those businesses do and the services you’ve offered. And and presumably to the extent that there are some loans, there’s going to be some defaults. But just, yeah, just a bit history right through the services you offer. Yeah.

Peter Greer: Well, Henry, it’s not too early to talk about what is coming because we’ve been through this before in Ukraine. If you actually look at what happened after the fall of the Soviet Union, you look at what happened in the early 90s and you saw all of the challenge. And so Hope International came in with relief at the time, not Hope International, but the church that was involved in the founding of Hope International came in with relief because in a crisis, that’s what is needed and so provided food for those that were insecure, provided housing, started rebuilding churches and really seeing this opportunity to love. But relief is always best when it is targeted and it is time bound. And there was a moment that really was the turning point when Pastor Petrenko in Ukraine said to these individuals. And Jeff Wright, hopes founder. We sure appreciate all the aid that you’ve been providing, but isn’t there a way you can help us help ourselves? Isn’t there a way we can no longer become dependent on your charity and we can have the gift of work we can provide for our families? And that was the moment that Hope International was born. And really shifting from charity to then development. And so in a very similar way, that’s what we’re going to experience. There’s going to be a time of outpouring of charity that is good and needed and appropriate. And then I believe very quickly it’s going to be an opportunity to rebuild the enterprises, the small businesses, the micro entrepreneurs. It’s going to be a time to help them get back to work and rebuilding their nation. And so that was the founding story. That is what we continue to do, and that is what we are going to do. Been there for 25 years and we’re going to be there for the next 25 years, helping entrepreneurs rebuild. Initially, it was about the small scale markets, but then really got into agriculture. 60 percent of our work is investing in agriculture and greenhouses and helping with food production in Ukraine. And that is what we’re going to continue to do on that.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us how you do that. Do you compete against the banks in the Ukraine? I know enough about hope to know that you have programs and services on top of the lending, but give us an overview Aminu menu, if you will, of what you do when you’re working with one of these agricultural entrepreneurs, one of these farmers. And by the way, when you talk about insecurity, you’re talking about, people are just her hungry. And as an aside, this weekend, my family and I watched the movie The Pianist. This was an Oscar winning movie from maybe 30 years ago. Roman Polanski movie. Adrien Brody, I think won Best Actor for it. Incredible. And it did such a great job of talking about a period of time, which is interesting to watch right now. But you came away from that and just realized that very quickly somebody can become food insecure when all of a sudden the shops go and you just you’re hungry. And that becomes that was, you know, for two hours. Effectively, you watch Adrien Brody going around and trying to find food. You’re working with these farmers. What does it look like to be able to serve them as they look to to feed this country?

Peter Greer: Yeah. Well, unfortunately, the timing of this, as at a time of individuals should be planting right now. There should be a time where there’s a whole lot of work being done to get ready. So I do worry if if there is an inability to at this stage, be planting the seeds and plowing the ground. I do think there’s going to be a crisis in the months to come on that as well. So what does it look like? It looks like the agricultural inputs are being matched with the hardworking entrepreneurs, hardworking farmers and then helping them to feed their families and feed their nation. So on a practical level, it’s inputs. It’s access to capital so that individuals can get what they need to grow up a whole variety. But for us, a huge, huge emphasis has been in greenhouses that turns it from just one growing season a year to multiple growing seasons a year. So doing a lot with helping individuals have access to greenhouses as well.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us about that. Their lawns ever equity deals. How do you source those deals?

Peter Greer: Yeah. So we keep it real simple. We do all with loans, so we do not take equity in the different ventures, but started with. Real small loans, you know, 50, $100, 200, $500. And then as we’ve grown now, it’s in the thousands of dollars of investments. And so, yeah, it’s not by any means our largest country of operation, but it has been, yeah, long term commitment to walking with these entrepreneurs. And I guess Henry, again, my mind, I feel like I’m not able to really articulate this real well right now. It has been a tough, tough season because as we are with our clients and with our staff, there is this sense of a feeling like there’s not a whole lot we can do right now and we will be there when the rebuilding begins. We know that. And right now, safety and security of staff calling all of our clients and saying immediate grace periods. We know there’s going to be write offs. We know there’s going to be loan forgiveness. And I think that’s an opportunity to show the different of our model and methodology. If you had your store ransacked by an invading army, we are going to help you not through the normal mechanisms, but we’re going to help you get back in business through an outpouring of compassion and generosity. And again, just checking in with clients praying for them. And yeah, it’s real hard when you think about the work that we do in light of an invasion and just so desperately wanting this to be over so that that rebuilding time can come, but it’s not there yet. This is not a time to be planning fields yet. This is not a time yet to be restocking shelves for the micro-entrepreneurs. And so it just is this huge piece of just picking up the phone call and clients making sure staff know we’re with them and doing everything possible that they would just simply know we are here, that we see. We know we care. And in many ways, just getting ready for as soon as we can. There’s a whole lot of excitement and anticipation the day that there is peace. The rebuilding will begin. And yeah, that’s really what we are actively planning and preparing for.

Henry Kaestner: One of the key differences in your model versus those of other models that invest in developing markets is that you have this faith driven staff and a couple of things. It just occurred to me. Number one, I see the the fatigue in you knowing that this is something you’ve been wrestling with and looking at. And the second one is, I’m just so glad that you’re in the market in the theater, if you will, loving all people because it would seem to me that when you have forty seven people able to call business owners that they know that are all in all, 47 of these are driven by their Christian faith. There’s an opportunity to love on people that might be different. It’s going to be different. It’s got to be radically different than when times are great and hope is just another loan. You know, they could get one from a bank or someplace else. And yeah, the hope international pray for the employer will pray for them. But and maybe that resonates a bit. But this would seem to be this time that while the faith aspect of your model and of your workers on the ground really, really matters. Am I getting that right?

Peter Greer: Yeah, you’re absolutely getting right. We saw that in the founding years of Hope International. We saw that in the invasion in 2014, and we are seeing it right now and I couldn’t agree more. Henry, when your world is shaken, when what you have been accumulating, what you’ve been saving and investing, when that is taken away, the question is what do you have? And for those of us that are followers of Jesus, we believe you can take our businesses. We believe that there are challenges that we were experience. And in the midst of that, there is a hope that is unshakable because it is not dependent on our circumstance, but on the character of Christ. And if the tomb is empty, that has relevance for us today. And so, yeah, we have seen we have definitely seen in many cases working with clients for years and years and years. And then it’s in a moment of crisis that the door opens to conversations about what really matters. Is there a hope in the midst of everything falling apart? And we would say, yes, there is on that. So yeah, I anticipate I believe this. We’ve already experienced it and I believe we’re going to experience it in the months to come. If the church can mobilize and if the church can be on the forefront of caring, of responding and rebuilding. I believe there will be incredible opportunities for the gospel to advance in Ukraine right now.

Henry Kaestner: Speaking on Hope a bit, I was really impacted by your sharing about one of the prophets talking about hope amidst conflict and challenge. Tell us a bit about that as very, very relevant for what’s going on right now, but also has to do with a work that God has been doing on your heart for a while. And I think you’ve got a book coming out about this, but tell us about this hope that comes. Out of the profits that’s made such an impact.

Peter Greer: Henry, this has been an absolute gift for Christmas and I to work on really this question initially of how do some of our friends keep going for decade after decade when they have every right to be disappointed, disillusioned, cynical and give up? And they haven’t like what is it? And you know this we have these friends and they just they just have this, as Eugene Peterson says, this long obedience in the same direction and what is it that sustains that? And so thinking about Zimbabwe, why are they still serving your our friends in Haiti? What or thinking about all of our friends that have just had this long term faithful obedience? And we started doing a research project really of saying, what is it that grounds their long term service when there are incredible challenges? And the theme that they kept bringing up again and again was this idea of a grounded and rooted hope, and they kept bringing up again and again this Old Testament prophet that I could quote one verse from. I could quote Jeremiah to 911 for. I know the plans that I have for you declared the Lord’s plans to prosper. You give you hope in future not to harm you, and I could quote that, but I had no idea of the full scale and scope when those words were written down by Jeremiah. And you look at Jeremiah and it was in the midst of an invasion from an occupying force that destroyed his homeland. It was in the midst of him having incredible personal challenge, death threats and assault and slander and all of these challenge. And yet sometimes he’s known as the Weeping Prophet. I think that’s the wrong description. He’s the persevering prophet. He’s the one who had this long obedience in the same direction. And in Jeremiah, 17, it really points to this idea of what sustains his service and how did he keep going. And. And I think what he wrote down, what got the message that God gave through the prophet Jeremiah has so much relevance for all of us today. And it basically said, You know what? You try to do it on your own, your strength. So that is not going to be when the drought comes, you are going to break off and blow away only if you have a hope that is in the character of who God is. That is the only way that you can have green leaves and drought conditions. And as we listen to our global friends, that is what they kept, pointing the example of Jeremiah faithfulness that is independent of circumstance and a hope that is rooted in God’s character. And instead of like turning inward instead of focusing on all of our disillusionment or all of our pain or all of our disappointment, it simply is looking up and this wonderful promise that Jesus gave. So in this world, you will have trouble like we were told this is going to be hard. And any North American expectation that following Jesus is easy is an unbiblical expectation. This is supposed to be hard. This is supposed to be difficult. But what does Jesus say? Says, but take heart. I have overcome the world, and I think that’s what our friends in Ukraine know right now. This is ridiculously painful and hard to watch what is happening, but it is possible to experience the presence of Christ in the midst of it. And for our brothers and sisters in other contexts around the world that are also experiencing incredible challenge, they expected that this was going to be hard and they’re not trying to do it in their own strength, but they have found a way of connecting to the author of Life. The reason we have hope they have found a way that their faith is what grounds them, and they know that there is a different end to this story than the current circumstance.

Henry Kaestner: What an incredible, encouraging note to end on. We’re now linked to this in the show notes, but I just want to encourage listeners right now, as you wanted to know more about the work that I hope international does and then their take on what’s going on in the ground to include links on how to give and get involved with other ministries. One of my big takeaways from Peter is just the way that the global church is responding. And I love your open headed nature with the way that you’re calling attention to what Samaritan’s Purse is doing, A.W. and Water Mission and others. I really encourage you to check out the Hope International website and for us as listeners, as faith driven investors to be on our knees praying about how God might have us allocate our capital in light of what’s going on and understanding that there is an opportunity for us as Faith Driven Investor is to have this long obedience in the same direction and try to understand how God might have us deploy capital for us to think about doing that. In Ukraine, there are a couple of dozen or so other countries that hope works in and as well. But right now, I think that we are indeed looking at some troubles which are in Eastern Europe, so let’s hope that God. Lines as faithful as we think and pray about these things. Peter, I’m grateful for you. I’m grateful for our friendship. I’m grateful for your leadership. I’m so fired up about the new book that’s coming out so I can understand more about this pattern that you see. And I love that I love this concept of who can you look at that are really the heroes out there on the ground doing things in a way that after two or three months, we’re like, Gosh, this work is just too hard. We just we’ve got to quit. And you knowing that there are men and women motivated by their Christian faith out there that are sticking to it? What does that look like? They grit through a biblical worldview, and so thank you for that. And let me just pray for you and and hope Heavenly Father. We lift up Peter and his leadership, and I thank you for the fact that he’s had a faithful obedience in the same direction for 17 18 years now as a CEO of Hope International and the way that he’s been such a light for me and so many others, I thank you for the work of hope on the ground and a few dozen countries in Africa and Latin America and Asia. Just it’s amazing to see what they’ve done, what you’ve done through them. Dear Lord. Specifically, though, today we pray for those 47 families. We pray for the 47 families that you will bring them safety and security. And yet, Lord, that you’d also allow them to be able to continue to serve those clients. We pray for the clients, we pray for these businesses that we pray for the conversations that hope employees will have with these businesses and checking in and praying with them. Dear Lord, we pray for the safety of your church in the Ukraine, the men and women that are running these businesses that are trying to keep the businesses afloat, trying to love their families while trying to even just find food. Some of these clients might be living in subway stations right now, Lord, and I think that just my impatience when I have to sit in a subway station for ten minutes when I’m waiting for a train, as I did last week in New York, and think that they’re there for days or maybe even weeks or longer. Dear Lord, we just pray for the brokenness of this world. And yet we also understand that you have told us that there will be troubles in this world. Find his faithful and obedient and worthy of those troubles because you have indeed overcome the world. Help us know what that looks like. Dear Lord, forgive me for the fact that I too often do not have that perspective and I coast too often. Forgive me for that. Allow me to rise to the occasion. Allow these listeners to do the same in Jesus name. Amen. Amen, thank you, Henry. Bless you, brother. Really good to see you. Do I get to?

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David McAlvany is the CEO of the McAlvany Financial Companies – International Collectors Associates and McAlvany Wealth Management. He is a featured speaker on national television and radio programs including CNBC, Fox News, Fox Business News, and Bloomberg where he analyzes major events and their impact on the global economy and financial markets. David shares his story, discusses the importance of precious metals and reserves, and explains how Faith Driven Investors should think about these assets.

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David Ridley knows a thing or two about real estate investing. Not only did he found and lead Invesco Real Estate for 27 years, but he also helped grow it into one of the largest and most diversified real estate investment firms in the world. And while the numbers are staggering, what is most impressive about David was his steadfast leadership. Learn more about building a resilient team in a world of constant disruption, what it takes to be salt and light in a big company, and what hope we have for the future.

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m John Coleman here with my partner, Luke Roush, and today we have the privilege of welcoming David Ridley to the show. Hi, David.

David Ridley: Hello there, John.

John Coleman: Well, I have to tell you, I’m really excited about this one. So I’ve known David for around a decade now. David was the founder and CEO of Invesco Real Estate, which grew to be a more than $60 billion real estate platform. Global everywhere in the world spanned tons of different products, and he also was just a great advocate for clients at the firm and someone that I considered a close friend and mentor. And so it’s really a privilege to have him on today. And we’re excited to learn how to build a $60 billion real estate platform. David, that should be a pretty easy task for you in the next 30 minutes or so. Is that right?

David Ridley: All right.

John Coleman: Well, talk to us a little bit about how you got started. We’d love to hear more about your life story as we dove in and just how you got into real estate investing.

David Ridley: You know, John, that’s good question. Because when I graduated with my finance degree from the University of Texas, nineteen seventy five, I had no idea what I wanted to do. But the one thing I did know I didn’t want to do is real estate. I wanted to be in stocks and bonds and all those really neat things. And somehow, the Lord has a sense of humor and shoehorned me right in the real estate. So it was kind of by accident. But if you don’t mind, I’ll just give you a little background on myself. I was born in San Antonio and my dad had been a B-17 pilot in the war and everything was new, you know, and he was the first out of eight that had ever gone to college. So we ended up getting transferred around a bit, and it was destiny that we’d moved back to Dallas because my mom died when I was nine and dad wanted to get us back or there was family. So it was just me and dad and my sister moved away to go to college. She might as well. That’s why I ended up down there, I think. And being with my dad all that time, he was pretty hardened guy. You know, he did. There wasn’t a lot of child-bearing books back then. I don’t believe he was a believer when he died as well. I hope he was, but he would tell me over and over. We’d be driving down the road and he’d see someone digging a ditch or working on a telephone pole. And he would say, Son, do you want to do that when you grow up? And he would just start beating into me. I was going to college. And so that was my beginning. So there’s one thing I knew I was going to do if nothing else in life, I was going to one day pass away, but I was going to pass away with college degree. So that’s how I happened, and I went down to UT and got out and came back and was fortunate enough to get into a management training program of a small life insurance company. And I went through this all the different departments, and they liked me enough in the real estate group that they hired me there. And so I started off on our biggest deal I think I ever did was like eight hundred thousand dollars on a warehouse and that it was a good start.

John Coleman: It was faith always important to you, David, or when did that become a part of your life?

David Ridley: You know, growing up without a mother and dad was never at home? OK, so that was good for me. I thought that was fantastic, but I was without any real great leadership and there was this woman down the block who had three of the most beautiful sisters you’ve ever seen, who I really thought were cute and a son that I played in my little football teams with an elementary school right through high school with Danny. And that woman was a godly woman and she prayed for me constantly. And so sophomore year comes around, I was getting in more trouble. Junior year was no better and I finally thought I’ve had it. Friend of mine asked me to read the Bible. I opened it up and it made sense. For the first time in my life, I understood the value of Christ’s sacrifice. And I prayed that night in bed between my junior and senior year that he would come into my life, and it was a remarkable change for me, and I jumped out of bed and drove over to her house the next morning to let her know. And she was a godly woman, and someone I think about constantly changed me forever.

John Coleman: That’s fantastic, David. And as you navigated, you mentioned you didn’t really want to get into real estate. You want to get into anything but real estate. So how did you end up in real estate?

David Ridley: Well, there was a program where you rotated throughout the company, and one of those was a real estate area and there was an Aggie in there and that Aggie decided he wanted to go back to College Station and open some ice cream stores. So I had written a really nice note. My dad had taught me to to do back in the low tech days, telling them how much I enjoyed it and that department. I’d done that earlier. So when he quit, they invited me down.

Speaker 3: And David, you know, maybe just for purposes of just listeners who were trying to get a sense of scope and scale, maybe share a bit about that. In terms of what your work in Invesco became, but maybe also speak to kind of why you went about that work and creation of jobs and sort of other things, it was a clear motivating factor for you.

David Ridley: What happened was that was my start in my career was south of life. I was fortunate enough to be hired by a large insurance company called Metropolitan Life, and they had their top person in the investment area, come to Dallas and made a little speech to us and told us where the world was trending. And it was towards managing other people’s money. OK? He said. The trillions of dollars that are out there, the investable dollars are located in pension funds, endowments, foundations, sovereign wealth funds, et cetera, et cetera. Well, that planted a seed in me that I wanted to be part of that. And so as fate would have it, this company, I was making a little bit of a reputation for myself and Dallas, and this company that had been around a long time in Dallas invited me over to start that kind of group. So I started it from scratch. It was me and a secretary. No clients, no money under management. They had a relationship with Texas teachers. They were impressed enough to give us a chance to be one of the firms that would do that for them. And that’s how it started. You know, they were OK with my qualifications. We got a contract signed and we had a nondiscretionary relationship with one of the toughest staffs I’ve ever had. And that’s how the thing got started. But it was tough. There were 10 years with only one client in. The worst thing about it was we had no idea how to get another one. Okay. And and so that’s how I got started. It was a very humbling experience, to say the least, competing against all the big boys, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley. Some of these firms, you don’t know, but Reif and some other ones back then. So I don’t know where you want me to go from there, but I’ll tell you it was a it was a rough start.

John Coleman: Well, talk to us a little bit about that journey, David, because I’ve heard this story before and just how you came to Invesco, your interactions with Charlie. And then, you know, as I remember, there was a pivotal point in the history of the business where you decided that you couldn’t do it on your own and I’d love to hear you just tell that story as well.

David Ridley: Yeah. So I remember sitting on the kitchen counter trying to decide if I was going to make this move and start this firm. And Candy’s 80 year old grandmother was sitting there in the kitchen and she goes, David, in 30 years, it will take a bit of difference. So that was she really started this, I guess. So I jumped off the counter and drove my little purple opal down to downtown Dallas and joined the firm. And I had been into it for about two years. And when sort of this pivotal moment came, I’d been asked to come down to Houston by maybe one of their leading brokers. And I went down there and I looked at warehouses all day long in with her staff, and we were looking for investment opportunities all the time. And that night, at dinner, after dinner, I was trying to bond with these folks. So they bring me product and not others. The leader in that group, this powerful broker, kind of took his spoon and dinged the glass and he he sort of stopped the meeting and I thought he was going to say something nice. But he looked at us and looked specifically at me. And he says, David, what makes you think you have any chance to build this firm? Look, you’re competing against. And he started naming firms. And I was a bit in shock. And I remember chills run down my spine because I realized he was really right. I didn’t have much of a chance. If I’d really studied it harder, done a little more due diligence, I probably would have never tried it. And honestly, I don’t even remember the rest of that dinner. I just remember getting back to the hotel room and opening the door. I walked back to it. It was near the Galleria and there was this little wooden desk in the corner and I sat at that desk and I just wanted to cry about me and to ruin my career. I had a leadership position where I was. Maybe I can get my job back, but that’s not going to happen. So I took a pad of paper and I wrote down and I filled up every line with my weaknesses. Why this was impossible. I wasn’t smart enough. I didn’t know how to sell myself, you know, just on and on, and I took that sheet of paper and I put it on the floor and I got down on my hands and knees and put my forehead on it. I remember that, and I just prayed Lord, first, would you just take me out of this job and move me? But if you don’t want to move me, then you be CEO and I’ll be doorman or whatever else you want me to do here. But I’m done. And that went on for a while, and I stood up from that floor and I’ve never had this feeling in my life, just like someone took a thousand pounds and lifted it off, my back flew back to Dallas the next morning, creativity returned and just optimism. I had no fear of failure. I wanted to do well for all these senior people at this company, but I literally had no fear of failure any more. It wasn’t mine to lose. And that changed everything in the way God showed up was. He started introducing me to these people, John, that you know, that three of me retired with me and we went all the way together. And you know, finding people is almost impossible. The right people. And I couldn’t do it. Up to that point. So he tangibly showed up with these folks that we were able to team up with and do some great things. So I would say that we’re in the middle of writing a book and there’s three pillars in that book and in the first one has to do with being securely centered, and I will tell you that securely centered me for the next thirty two years. So it was a pivotal moment for me, John.

Luke Roush: When you talk about being securely centered, maybe just speak a little bit to what that looks like in the context of thirty two years at a big company like Invesco. What does it look like to be securely centered and kind of salt and light where you’re planted?

David Ridley: You know, tangibly, you can see it because. You don’t have the warning signs would be anxiety, insecurity, you know, comparing yourself to others. All those things. And when I speak to college students, I call those the big sins in business for a believer. And even when I’m speaking secularly, so all those went away, I immediately hired two people. One of them, I paid twice as much as me. And the other was David Farmer. Johnny, you remember I paid him like a quarter more than me, and it was about finding the right talent that could produce the right results for these clients and for our people that we were going to work for and have worked with us. And so that’s what it looked like. And to be secure in myself, you know? Yeah. And that helped move us into building a culture that was somewhat maybe unparalleled in our sector.

John Coleman: Yeah, talk about that a little bit more, David, because I’ve heard you talk about just the importance of your partners, the people, the culture that you built in. I’ve also even seen you tell this story, this story about that hotel room and really handing things over to God and in the workplace that you were really authentic about the way in which that transformed you. I’d love to hear how you started to build that culture, how you found those people and how your partnership evolved in a way that was so powerful.

David Ridley: You know, it was all experiential. John, I didn’t have any textbooks that talked about this. So. So first of all, let me say, I’m probably the least likely CEO you’ll ever meet. OK. My favorite verse talks about where Paul asked for his thorn to be removed or whatever that was, and God said, No, my grace is made strong in your weakness, and I’ve always known that I’ve always kept that promise close to my heart. So I didn’t go into this thinking I was the smartest guy in the room by any stretch of the imagination. So once I was centered, it was easy for me to realize that I needed to gather the best athletes around me, but also we needed to build great teams. We had to have great. We call it extreme team engagement. You know, as God has created us to do life with others, we call that other ring. And so I knew that was going to be key to us being able to win and have a healthy business. And so, you know, I happened to read, in fact, I’d left Invesco when I read this. I wish I’d known it when I was there, but it was St. Augustine in the fourth century, had a quote. It said humility is the foundation of all the other virtues. Hence the soul for that virtue does not exist. There can be no others except in mere appearance. And so when we would go out to build these teams, we would look for true humility. It was easy to find talent. It was hard to find humility in someone who could fit in. So we’d look for humility. We’d look for a team orientation as opposed to a star system. Then we try to find folks with a fire in their belly so that, you know, they get things done. And like you, John, you always walk around fast and get things done, and that’s what we needed. So from being centered, I was able to go find those kind of people who I thought were better than I was and I was able to empower them. That’s the biggest gift you can give. Anyone is empowerment. I learned that from a billionaire real estate guy in Dallas. I’m sure he’s a Christian, but he would get his key leaders in the room and he would ask them questions that I knew he knew the answers to. So I started doing that. I would let them be the experts. I just became the bandleader, the coordinator. And that enabled some folks to really grow and thrive. And we ended up with some great team play there, which resulted in a great culture which becomes your character in the marketplace. People know you for that. In the business case, for it is you end up with high stability. We never lost a partner. We never lost a client. Knock on wood, high stability of people and clients. That’s hard to replicate. You know when you’re competing.

Luke Roush: So David, as you kind of went from building the team kind of world class, humble individuals that had both fire in the belly, but also a servant’s mentality? And it wasn’t about them. It was about the mission that you guys were on together. Maybe just talk a little bit about moving from building the team to building the portfolio of investments, a lot of capital to work over time and then maybe just extend off of kind of what that look like BAM to the market today and what’s changed, maybe since you were running that group at Invesco?

David Ridley: Well, that’s a great question. Basically, one of the pivotal moments was a trip I made to Atlanta. We had just orchestrated a sale of our firm to Invesco. This was 1990. I flew over to Atlanta as a Saturday morning. I remembered and opened my book up the show. Charlie Brady, the founder of Invesco, What we were going to do to be successful. And it was this strategic multifamily investment program in the South. You know, it was all this. And we’re sitting there, his myself and a fellow named David Farmer, and he reached over right in the middle of my pitch. He just closed the book and I kind of looked at him with, Oh my god. That can’t be a good sign in any culture. And he says, David, listen to me. He goes, This is all great. I’ve been very impressed with your diligence in how you run your business. And, you know, he went on about things that he likes. But he said, You do understand if you can’t win, none of this makes any difference. None of this matters. And I began to realize at that moment my life, he’s right. We have to learn to win. So once you build great teams, it’s about having a healthy environment. We just talked about that. If you’re not winning as part of those factors, if one of them in winning, then you’re done. So that taught us the importance of this elite client engagement that we had to get really great at which we did. And I’ve got to tell you the way that happened. We were armed with great people. We developed something called the war room. We have the culture to do it. When we found out who our competitors were, we’d go in that war room and we would literally we had a structure where we knew more about those competitors, maybe, than they knew about themselves. And we juxtapose those strengths and weaknesses against our own. We would figure out ways to be more competitive. Part of having a great firm is the ability to have great meetings, and we had great meetings. We had rules of the room. You had to check your ego at the door. There was no rank in the room. If you’re at the table, we had an obligation to disagree. You know when you needed to, then when you left the room, your friends and those are the rules, and we had the most robust group meetings around winning. And they worked. And so we started. Once we got this together, it was all about having a value proposition that made sense, etc. Just absolutely amazing preparation. And once we got all that together, we just started winning clients. It was amazing. We went from one client to the first one was state of Nevada and went on and went to Los Angeles County, then Colorado. I remember almost crying on the phone. I had to hide my tears from the guy there in Colorado because I never thought we’d get a second client, much less a third one. So, yeah, that’s how we started winning. And it was around having a healthy environment where people could be empowered and grow. And it’s just a more holistic approach, and it’s not a secret anymore. McKinsey has studied this thousands of companies, and they determine firms that focus on their culture, meaning their health in factors that cause great cultures are four times more successful than firms that focus more on their acquisition or their ability to execute and operate. They’re just more important if they’re focusing on those things equally with those operational executional things. So we just happen to really get that.

John Coleman: David, that was one of the more fascinating things about the culture that you built. I remember and I’ve told the story elsewhere. You know, when you’d walk into your offices in Dallas right behind the reception desk, there was a big painting that had firefighters and teachers and police officers on it because those were your clients. Those were the beneficiaries of these public funds that were investing with y’all. And there was a real sense in your group at Invesco Real Estate that the clients really mattered and that that’s why you were there and that’s the purpose of what you were doing. It wasn’t just winning with clients, it was winning for clients and making sure that you were guardians of the capital that they were entrusting you with. Where did that come from for you and how did you instill that in everybody at the company?

David Ridley: You know everything. And you know this, everything comes down from leadership. So as a leader, it’s all going to reflect you. And that was a little bit of it, to be honest, was my natural personality. But what really honed this was having one non-discretionary client for 10 years that shaped us, man. There were many, many of our competitors that had commingled funds. They had hundreds of clients. They did not understand the servant’s heart that it took to satisfy one high demanding client for 10 years. So the only way to quickly exit our firm would be to not get that in. If you didn’t have that characteristic about you, you would win yourself out really quickly. So that came down to this humble heart that we had with these clients, and we just couldn’t be wrong. You know, in the way we executed that. So we did have a servant heart and they got to know that they felt it and we developed accountability. So we called it the Invesco Report card. So it was all about building trust. It wasn’t about investing money, it was having trust built and then it was about investing money in high levels of accountability. And one thing that really helped us to continue winning back to that topic was we developed the postmortem process so that when we lost, we don’t get in that room within five. Days in, find out why we lost and no fingers could be pointed because we’re all very potential to lay down a stinker here and there, which I’m probably doing right now, John. But what was definitely very disciplined in the culture of clients or everything just sort of permeated that picture you talk about. We talked about that all the time in quarterly meetings that we would have and I would be speaking. We’d refer to that picture. And I’d ask everybody in the room, if you’re involved in sales and client engagement, raise your hand and everybody in the room had to raise their hand before we could go on with the meeting. Because, you know, the smart investment, people don’t want to be known as marketing people or client necessarily client people, and they had to be in our culture.

John Coleman: I have seen David stop many a meeting until every executive raise their hand for the who’s in sales question, so absolutely authentic. Any good stories about what that look like? David, I remember one that you told me about the Boy Scouts coming to Dallas, for example, but any great examples of how that looked in action?

David Ridley: Oh gosh, you know? Yeah, that Boy Scout one, I went around. I actually did a survey of all of our Dallas team anyway, and we have like 20 Eagle Scouts. I had no idea. I never made it past the Cub Scouts, so I was so happy to use that statistic. But it was the one of the toughest presentations we’ve ever had. And they were tough. They loved to ask the toughest questions in this time. They asked my colleague, who’s now our CEO and Invesco, the address of a property that we invested in his city and we didn’t know that address. We knew the basic block it was on. I remember leaving that thing and pounding my steering wheel. I was so mad that we blew it. You know, we didn’t make it, and there were always that tough, but we won the account, Praise Lord, and we ended up having them as a client. They were very tough and we would have to remind ourselves it doesn’t matter how tough they are, we’re here to serve them. And we would just break our back to do it. And you know, that’s the way it was. Clients never wrong, although sometimes they have to be steered around investment ideas that they were never wrong. You know,

Luke Roush: maybe just taking a moment to look out the front windshield of where you think the market is going. David Witter, just a couple of pieces of counsel that you would give to aspiring investors who were looking at current uncertainty in the market in the next 10 years. Just a couple of pieces of counsel that you would offer from your own experience.

David Ridley: Well, what I would say is I know I’ve lived in my business life. I’ve lived through seven recessions. Every everyone had a black swan event to it. None of them. Did anybody guess you can never forecast what that black swan is going to be the best ones? The GFC, you know, we suffered through the Great Recession in some way, and it’s been almost 11 years since we’ve had one. So I know it’s coming. The Black Swan is out there and it’s probably happening right now with this new war we’re engaged in. And every one of them is scary. But in my humble opinion, they all pass. And you have to look at it that way. You can’t change the gravitational things that you’re doing. And like everything, these three pillars we’re talking about, you have to stay consistent with those disciplines that you have. So anyway, it’s important to recognize they’re going to happen and how you’re prepared for them in our business. There’s lots of things that have changed, and I’m maybe not the expert anymore since I’ve been gone almost seven years. But but we all know what’s happened to office buildings. Obviously, a black swan was COVID, and that was a big hit when that hit us. Office buildings are not nearly occupied like they were Amazon and others came along and changed. Retailing that’s left us primarily with industrial and multifamily is the darlings of the investment space these days that’s taken our camp rights, which are the first. That’s how you measure returns at your first year’s return in real estate. It’s taken out to historic lows in my earlier career. In fact, a friend of mine even wrote a paper. The answer is nine. OK, you bought real estate on a nine. And I remember seeing somebody took an eight and seven return on something, and I thought they were crazy. They were not correlated to treasuries. It was incredible. So now you’ve got the most expensive apartments in industrial properties you’ve ever seen out there. So people are having to lean into different things to satisfy clients. And some of those things are like medical office buildings look better than they’ve ever looked self-storage even residential mortgages or being, you know, all this, but through various conduits. The problem with those was bite size. But now invest goes into joint venture of some kind that they’re able to buy the bigger tranches of that loans now making lots of loans. It’s not your traditional money center bank anymore, your insurance company, there’s a lot of loans that our guys are making a private rate they formed to get to the retail markets. So all that’s new since I left. So every year, you know, it’s change and they laugh at me now they say, you couldn’t even work over here anymore, Dave. You wouldn’t know what’s going on. And I say, you’re probably right. You’re always having to change and be flexible.

Luke Roush: Well, the funny thing is that on the one hand, some of the facts and circumstances change. But part of what I take away from your commentary is that the most important thing? Rings around team, why you do what you do, how you care for clients. Those are more timeless principles than they are. Timely facts and circumstances are timely that core things are usually timeless.

David Ridley: I call them gravitational there things that have never changed in my career. I remember getting in before the Sun came up and talking about how we’re going to win clients and who we were going to be. And I remember making decisions that are still good decisions today, but one was we were not going to focus on any one property type. We were going to be the four main food groups which I won’t bore you with. We were not going to be a southwestern exposure. We were going to be national and that turned into global. We were not going to be one risk level. We were going to be up the scale from poor real estate to value added to opportunistic. And we didn’t want any clients having more than like five or 10 percent of our business, and we got that done eventually. When I started, we had one client who 100 percent so all those things are good business disciplines, but we got there, in my opinion, more predictably because of the disciplines around the three pillars. It’s building that kind of culture, and it’s the soft stuff that some people don’t understand that keeps them in marginalizes them towards not being able to be a really great, larger competitor.

John Coleman: And David, I know you’ve been up to some really interesting stuff lately, you’ve been kind of retired, I guess, although you’ve transitioned to some other things before we do that. You know, there are a lot of folks listening to this podcast who like you exist in larger, diverse organizations with all different types of people, and you led a large, diverse organization where people of different faiths or no faith at all. What advice would you have to those in those organizations about living their faith authentically in those types of diverse environments that aren’t necessarily faith based or faith driven?

David Ridley: You know, that’s a great question. I was convinced, you know, I mentioned that godly woman. Her name is Nelda Hassall. You know, when I first found the Lord in was saying I had my four spiritual laws book and I went to airports, I went all over the place in witnessing, and that’s not wrong. You know, that was a very rewarding thing. But as a CEO in a multi-faith company and so forth, you obviously can’t do that. So what Nelda had told me even back then, she says, you need to pray that God will bring people into your life that he wants you talking to. You need to just relax and pray that the Lord will open those doors. And so I’ve always had that feeling that that’s what I needed to do, and God has been good about doing that. So we didn’t go out to find just Christians. We went out to find the best talent we could in the lower stamp. As they interview people, they could see they’re really talented. Our job in the upper management was to figure out who they were, really personally, who their culture was and how were they humble as we talked about it and all those things? And it didn’t matter if they’re Christians. We ended up with a lot of Christians. But my feeling was it was to be salt light. And people knew who we were in our hearts. We wouldn’t hide it, but we didn’t put it on our sleeve and try to push it. There was a woman out in California, I was told the other day by our new CEO. He said she almost didn’t join us because she thought we were a Christian organization. And I thought, Well, that’s funny because we’ve never advertised ourselves as being a Christian organization, but people can see your values and who you are, and maybe sometimes it seeps through. But our job is to our people, first in our clients, then the stockholders benefit in our obligation is to have great people in that we can get great clients with who will then benefit our stockholders. And I was fortunate to lead one of my bosses to Christ, once you know, I mean, it does happen, but it’s not something that was on the front end.

John Coleman: And David, you’ve kind of taken a lot of the lessons you learned building a company over the course of a few decades, and you’re now talking to others about those. And I hear you even have a book coming together. Do you mind talking about kind of what’s happened after Invesco Real Estate and what you’re up to today?

David Ridley: Well, we traveled. We had a lot of fun. We went to. I’ve never been to Italy, believe it or not, we even had an office there and I’d never been there. But we just had a ball and one day candy and I looked at each other and we said, we’re so done with traveling. You know, I and 10 million miles on just American, you know, during my business life. So we settled down and my prayer was, I’m not going to go look for presentations, but I’m going to be open to do it. So Lord appeal, please open the right doors. And he did that through a couple of organizations. I started speaking the college students and I love doing that. I love. For twenty five years or more, I’ve been mentoring young business people. Now it’s college students and young business people, and that’s where I really find satisfaction now. Have I consulted? Yeah, I’m affiliated with, I should say. I guess I collaborate with Dr. Chip Roper, a brilliant man out of New York who is called out of the pastor who’s business in 20 years as a pastor, then called back to New York City from Philadelphia to minister to Christian executives. And we met each other, and together we’re putting a book together. It’s called resilient leadership. At this point, who knows what it will be called building winning teams in the face of constant disruption. I kind of like to think about it is leading without regrets. I kind of like that title because what I wanted to do, I’d always watch Southwest Airlines and Herb Kelleher, and I would see how he led without regrets. I don’t know that he was a Christian, but he really loved his people. And I can tell you when you retire, your legacy that you leave behind is about 100 times more important to you than you know it is or will be now. And so you want to leave behind people who knew that you love them and really feel great about the way you treated them and where there later. And so that’s what drives me and I want to write. I spoke with Chip, not necessarily for me, John, as I said earlier to you, it’s really, I think, going to give him legs as he builds his consulting business, which I participate some of those consulting assignments, but he’s got more to play for here than I do. So, hey, John, I think you’ll recognize my bio. You clean that up, buddy.

John Coleman: David was good at living the right life, and I was good at editing.

David Ridley: Yeah, I sent John my bio, and I think after he got up off the floor laughing, he rewrote it. I’m still using it over here.

Luke Roush: David, I think maybe the reverse that you were looking for earlier was, is it Second Corinthians 12 nine? Yeah, he said to me, my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore, I will boost all the more gladly about my weaknesses so that Christ Power may rest on me. And just as you shared some about your career and just the humility that you do that with, it’s clear and where you find power from. So I’m grateful for you taking some time, and I’ll turn it over to John to wrap this up.

John Coleman: Yes, Sir David will have to ask one question as we close out and then any parting thoughts from you. And that’s just what is God been teaching you recently? And how has he been speaking to you?

David Ridley: You know, re impressing upon me the importance of habits that you need to stay with, and that means meeting with a coach before the game. And that’s getting up every day and spending my first 30 minutes with Christ and how importance obedience is in the fruits of obedience. To walk in life with a spirit filled mine takes obedience. It takes being obedient to God and listening to the Holy Spirit and staying with those disciplines. And so I’ve really had to work. You know, it was easier when I was working, frankly, to have those routines than now. So he’s been teaching me a lot about that and about being available, you know, and not stopping the mentoring and being available for consulting when someone calls on me, etc. So it’s a great life to be able to have time to actually do that and not have to punch a clock. You know that the powerful

John Coleman: that’s powerful, David. That’s awesome. And look, we are really grateful to have been able to talk to you today. I know I personally am really grateful for the example you set in the real estate industry and at the firm I used to work at and just the friendship that we’ve had over the years. And I know that this will be a great benefit to all those out there who are thinking about starting their own firms, folks like my partner who went through their own decade long process of building businesses just like you. So thank you for taking the time to spend with us today.

David Ridley: Yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I’m highly flattered. You reach out to me.

Luke Roush: No brainer. Grateful for you, David. Blessings to you and appreciate your time.

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Robert Netzly is a globally recognized authority in the Biblically Responsible Investing movement and author of the Amazon #1 best-selling book “Biblically Responsible Investing”. He is the Founder and CEO of Inspire Investing, a leading innovator in providing low cost, high impact, biblically responsible investing solutions to institutions, advisors, and investors. Robert is a frequent contributor on FOX Business, Bloomberg, New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Financial Times, The Christian Post and other major global media for his thought leadership in the faith-based, environmental, social and governance (ESG) investing marketplace. Today, Robert joins us to talk about key aspects of Biblically responsible investing, what it means to be an active and engaged shareholder, and how your faith is reflected in the way we shepherd our capital.

Episode Transcript

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast, Luke. Great to be doing this with you.

Luke Roush: It is great to be on. It’s good to be on with Robert again.

Henry Kaestner: It is. It is, is great. In the last episode we had done. I recall that I talked about my very limited economics, background and capability at the University of Delaware. I just kind of stumbling through micro and macro as I was spending more of my time selling T-shirts. But I didn’t ask you about your background, and I don’t know that anybody knows on the podcast that you actually study public policy at Duke. You must have had economics at some point in time. Right?

Luke Roush: Me, absolutely. Yeah, there’s a lot of it more than I’d like to remember, but I really enjoyed it, particularly the micro, because you can kind of get your arms around it and you get to see it every day.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, yeah. OK, so speaking of economics, we have a guy that we’ve had on. This may be their first repeat customer on the Faith Driven Investor podcast, and we’ve got Robert Nazli in the house. And Robert has been a great friend of the movement and has been an inspiration to us and that he’s gone out and launched a firm against all odds, finding a need in the market and really just really launching something really special. We’ve had you on before, Robert, and where you gave a little bit of a longer biographical sketch, but I want to revisit some of that too. Who are you? Where do you come from? What is inspire?

Robert Netzly: Yeah, it is good to be back. And if I am the first be customer, wow, what an honor. I think unless you just can’t find another guest to be on here. And then so, you know, it’s absolutely one of those things. Yeah, no. My economic background consists of learning how to grow up on food stamps with a single mother with a younger brother who is autistic. And, you know, parents, you know, went through the 70 drug scene and everything and just not, you know, a typical background that you might think of as a business leader went to community college and dropped out my junior year, you know, done all kinds of different things along the way. A lot of ministry, you know, at our local church that we kind of helped start up back in the day and somehow by God’s grace ended up in the investment industry and really took to it, you know, so that’s my background, you know, in a nutshell, but I’m certainly not the guy you would have picked in high school or junior high or anything else is like, Hey, this is this is the guy who is going to start an investment firm. I got D’s in math, hated public speaking, and here I am, talking to lots of people about money. So there you go.

Luke Roush: Well, you know, the concept of biblically responsible investing is really something that you helped really to initiate, maybe to share a bit more about that and then maybe how the movement has evolved over time.

Robert Netzly: Yeah. And I certainly didn’t invent the idea, for sure. You know, my professional background was at Wells Fargo Private Client Service. Working out in Carmel, California really is happy as a clam there and then of learning how to do math and learning how to talk to people again by God’s grace. But then I stumbled across this whole concept of biblically responsible investing online one day. This idea that you’re not just looking at the financial returns of a portfolio, but you know, God probably cares about the kinds of companies we’re investing in. Are these companies manufacturing abortion drugs or selling pornography or violating human rights in their supply chains? What are these companies doing? What are you doing as an owner to profit from these things? And what does the Bible have to say about that? So that’s that’s typically responsible investing. When I first looked into that, I honestly the Holy Spirit has gripped my heart because here I was president of our local pro-life pregnancy center at the time, and I discovered I owned stocks in three companies that manufacture abortion drugs and got hit me upside the head with the fact that every time that young lady goes across the street has an abortion. Planned Parenthood. I just made money in that transaction. I literally profited, recommending all my clients to do the same thing, and that was my intro to biblically responsible investing.

Luke Roush: It was there. Was there a moment in time where all of a sudden or maybe an experience where you realized, like, I need to leave wells, I need to start a firm? You know, oftentimes in that formation story of a company, there’s some sort of injustice or something that’s, you know, just broken in the world that you feel called to fix. Let me speak a little bit to kind of that catalytic zero to one moment.

Robert Netzly: Yep, and it came really quick. Once I again stumbled across this realization, I just I could not do my job with a clean conscience anymore. In two weeks time, I was just dead in the water, which was, you know, troubling because I didn’t know if I could even stay in the business. I’ve never met anybody doing what we do now. I have no conception that there is even something else going on in the industry, you know, in other places, in a Christian sense. So I went home, told my wife, Hey, honey, I think the God’s call somewhere else, and I need to work somewhere else in a different industry. And here’s what I found. And she’s like, Well, we got two babies in the mortgage. So what’s the plan? Right? And ended up just was this close to going to seminary? I was honestly in conversations with multiple seminaries, and like that was I was just going to do a pastor thing. And the only way I could think of staying in the business was, well, I suppose I could, you know, leave the bank start an independent firm that only did some sort of. Look, gold type, you know, investing, but that’s crazy, because I don’t have the experience or money or connections or, you know, all the things that you’re supposed to have before you do something like that. But as we prayed as God does, he just made it unmistakably clear through a number of ways. But the compulsion was just undeniable that that’s exactly what I was supposed to do. So two months later made the incredibly frightening decision to leave the bank left my clients there with a team I’d been with previously started over or just need a laptop. Less than two months of savings, the bank fully prepared never to pay my mortgage ever again in my life and fully convicted. This is exactly what God is calling me to do. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be financially successful, so maybe I’ll go broke in six months and move on to the family with my mom and whatever and then go to seminary. But whatever God like this is your plan. I know this is your call in my life and I’ve got to obey. So that was, you know, a little over 10 years ago. So while the think

Henry Kaestner: Robert, one of the things that you’ve talked about a bunch is what does it look like to engage with companies and be kind of an activist shareholder? Having some skin in the game? Being a shareholder affords you a different opportunities to be able to witness and be heard. Talk to us a little bit about what that looks like in the investing you all do.

Robert Netzly: Yeah, and this is again, I mean, it was accidental almost that this whole business started. I got into this industry and then really sort of fell into this idea of shareholder engagement wasn’t something that was on our, you know, business plan to do. But as we, you know, as guidance really grew this business from those early days and started opening our eyes to there’s more Christians in this industry that God is doing the same sort of work in their hearts. It wasn’t mine and looking for ways to do this. It just became evident that there is a larger voice that needs to be shared with corporate America. And these companies were investing in, you know, occasionally a quote good company will sort of get off the rails or something. And now we got to dump some out of our portfolio or think of, you know, do something there. And I think the first time that we had a conversation around this idea was a friend of ours in the industry. Another Christian financial advisor was working with Chevron, kind of engaging with them to stop giving money to Planned Parenthood. They’ve been donating money to Planned Parenthood, and we live near the Chevron headquarters in the Silicon Valley area. And so he asked, You know, can we attend this meeting and stuff like, sure. And so you end up going to this meeting and happy story. Chevron stopped donating money to Planned Parenthood and, you know, the short version of that story. And that led us to sort of think of, well, what other companies might we engage with? And so over this time, when we’ve seen things at a business that we’re invested in or we like to invest in a business that needs a little help, we just pick up the phone and call investor relations, send an e-mail. Investor Relations and we’ve had amazing success that we never thought we would with many companies, huge companies that are actually interested in hearing from all of their investors, including faith based investors. And oftentimes are very receptive to integrating the feedback they hear from us into their business practices. So it’s been really encouraging and it’s become a bigger part of our business and kind of day to day here it inspire.

Luke Roush: So you’re kind of describing, you know, and this concept of kind of negative screening, positive screening, active engagement, which you’re kind of describing, is that third bucket. Maybe you speak a little bit to kind of how you’ve seen bride evolve over time along all three dimensions of how people might think about their faith being reflected in how they shepherd capital.

Robert Netzly: Yeah, I think historically the exclude part of that equation has been the starting point, going back decades and decades, and it’s absolutely essential. I mean, I do believe strongly converted from the word of God that it’s just like I should not, as a Christian, be making money from abortions, right? And a number of other things. So we have to be looking at the exclusionary criteria in our portfolios. But then we go beyond that. And really, the nexus of inspire and Inspire was this idea that well, in addition to excluding where the most glorifying companies, I mean, there’s companies out there that they’re not necessarily Christian or run explicitly by Christians or Christian values, but they’re operating in line with God’s principles like fairness and morality and ethics and things like that, right? Surprise, surprise. And I wonder if we could measure the relative biblical alignment of companies and then invest in those most biblically aligned companies. You know, the most inspiring, positive companies that are creating products that are blessings of people that use them, that have policies and practices that just bless their employees, that bless the communities they operate in a lot of different specific ways. And so we created what we call our Inspire Impact Score methodology, which is just our rules based approach to scoring companies from a negative hundreds of positive 100. We invest in anything above zero, anything below zero we exclude. But really, we’re looking for those highest scoring companies as a real, faith based approach to environmental, social and governance investing ESG. And that’s been a big trend as we’re seeing more investors. Is sort of ride the coattails of a broadly secular, you know, progressively secular, oftentimes ESG movement in the industry and say, Hey, you know, the Bible talks about environment, the Bible talks about social, the Bible talks about governance. What about a biblical worldview on those issues from a positive perspective? So we invest in those highest rated companies from a biblical lens in those categories? And then the third is that engagement where we have this, you know, as investors, we have an opportunity to call the companies that we invest in. We can file shareholder resolutions and get involved in proxies. If you want to or just very casually just off the books to have conversations, say, Hey, you know, I’m an investor, I’m a Christian, I care about certain things and you know, x y z like, please don’t give money to Planned Parenthood. That’s something that I don’t really want my company doing. Here’s why. In a number of other issues. So that’s that exclude, endorse, engage sort of framework that we use here to inspire. And we’re seeing a lot of other faith based asset managers and wealth managers get more involved in that, which is really exciting to think. You know, as Christians, as the industry, there’s a lot of money 20 trillion dollars plus that are controlled by Protestants, evangelicals and Catholics in this country alone. Stocks, bonds, mutual funds. That’s a lot of capital that can have a lot of influence if we just are intentional with those conversations.

Henry Kaestner: One of the things I want to do is just go off script just a little bit. We’ve got a great carryover audience with Faith Driven Entrepreneur and you are a Faith Driven Entrepreneur. You’ve seen an opportunity, a problem to be solved. You’ve leaned into it, you’ve created a business around it, a business that has grown very rapidly. What’s it like just to navigate through all that? As you know, your interview by The Wall Street Journal or The New York Times, all of a sudden the spotlights on you and the more influence you have, the more critics you have. What’s that ride been like for the last five years?

Robert Netzly: Unexpected as everything else, and to flesh that out a little bit. Yeah, I mean, from the moment I left Wells Fargo and started talking to clients about this concept, it was obviously God was at work, people’s jaws at the floor, their eyes opened like, Wow, I’ve never thought about this before. How do I invest this way? I had to bring other advisors into the practice, not my plan. The influence and business just started growing, and I have no business training background, as I alluded to, and it’s been failing forward fast and trying to keep up with what God is doing. So there’s a whole lot of learning on the fly. A whole lot of build the airplane before you hit the ground, FDE jump off the cliff and all of those analogies that entrepreneurs are aware of. Our particular story around 2015 is when we started aspire as a standalone company and realize that there’s more of an industry and we need to create some products like our exchange traded funds and other asset manager products to really serve the financial advisors that we’re trying to go all in for God’s glory in the practice. But there was a dearth of, you know, product availability. And so in 2017, we ended up launching the first two ETFs in the New York Stock Exchange on a wing, a prayer hole, up top ramen beans and rice, you know, months without salary. Small, committed team that just knew that. We knew that. We knew that God was calling us to do this, and we had to bring this to market because God’s people need to be empowered to invest for us, and they weren’t empowered to do that. And so by God’s grace, we lost this to its 10 year goal ended up being like a one year goal somehow. And the next day, we’re yeah in the New York Times, on the front page of the business section in The Wall Street Journal. All these other hundreds of articles and interviews later, just trial by fire and what we’ve really learned from that process. Obviously, what we’re standing for is not really well embraced by many people in our world these days, and we’ve been called lots of names, you know, for believing things about the Bible. But we’ve just been encouraged also that there’s such an outpouring of support from people who do love God and do believe the Bible and are just so thankful that first week I got a Twitter message from a gentleman in Zambia and he was just gushing and saying how he’s been praying for us ever since he heard the news of the New York Times and that he bought shares in our ETFs in Zambia. You know that very first week we were trading, you know this hundreds, literally hundreds of other stories like that. So we’ve been incredibly encouraged that this is a work that God is doing. He is opening the eyes of his people all over the world, literally that he cares about how we manage his money and that when you step out in faith to follow God and something he’s calling you to do, he’s not going to let you get just get run over by the bus, right and say, Oh, sorry, you thought you were following my instructions, but you made a wrong turn? Sorry. Now he either protects us by correcting us when we do make those missteps or encourages on those correct steps that correct direction. But if you’re stepping out in faith, you can’t make a wrong step is the point. You’re not always going to have success when actually you’re not always going to, you know, avoid problems, but God will be with you, and he will take you through those things and faithfully follow his leading through prayer to the world through intensive to the Holy Spirit. Direction your life. Without a doubt, we would not be here if it was us trying to figure out a business plan. This has been trying to follow God’s leading in our life as a business. A lot of times as counterintuitive. A lot of times it flies against the business convention. We got a lot of advice from a lot of smart people who got decades of industry experience that our idea was terrible and we were going to be miserable failures. Some of them were Christians, but we just knew God was calling us to do it. And it’s not bad and thankfully miserable failure. You know, we were managing about $2 billion of assets right now or the third fastest growing registered investment advisory firm in the nation, two years running in 5000 top quartile. Like all glory to God because this was not our plan. And he is just doing a work and we’re trying to keep up and be faithful. That’s the calling is to be faithful. And that’s what we’ve learned.

Henry Kaestner: We started a new program with the Faith Driven Investor podcast. We’re kind of doing a pilot on it. It’s called Lightning Round, where we go through, and we asked our guests a series of questions maybe proceeding from easy to hard. But we want to try that with your new game.

Robert Netzly: I’m game. I mean, do I win a prize or something? And I do? Well, that’s big

Luke Roush: prize for those. We’re in and out burgers and the children’s prize?

Henry Kaestner: Yes. All right. Number one, there’s been much talk about the fact that the next generation, the next generation is just much more conscious about what matters to them. And I’m thinking about this as a father of a 17 year old and 16 year old and a 20 year old. Big name and teen fashion is Hollister, you move the company to Hollister, California. Is that the pander to this next generation of new investors

Robert Netzly: and move the company away from Hollister, California? To be clear, so we started the company in Hollywood, California, which has no relation to the clothing brand other than enterprising high school students selling their Hollister phys ed. You know the thing about $15 for $75 on eBay? So that’s the limit of the connection there. OK.

Henry Kaestner: So I was hoping it was more so for us. It was just brilliant marketing. You’re a fourth grade teacher. Give us one quick story 30 seconds or less about your favorite interaction with a fourth grader.

Robert Netzly: Yeah, I was almost the fourth grade teacher. Again, not to correct the host of the show twice in a row, but I went to school with the fourth grade teacher and I was this close. I did guest teaching during college before I dropped out. But an interaction that sticks with making those sort of student teaching things was clear. Today there is this little fourth grader named Paul in California, whereas doing my student teaching and there’s a little school garden. We went out there and we were pulling weeds in the school garden and this little kid, you could tell he just didn’t come for the best family. He had behavior issues. I was sort of assigned to sit with him like in the class because, you know, the teachers like, you just deal with this and that’s, you know, if you can deal with this kid like, great, thank you. So I can teach the other ones. But me and Paul just like, hit it off and I like I started saying, Do look at that, we you just that’s a huge weed. You are like a championship weed puller, Paul. And he just his eyes got big and he was pulling more weeds faster with more enthusiasm. Many other kids in that playground would bring every single one of them show me so I could like, give him an attaboy, Paul. And it just was so great. Is it a delight to me to see you when you encourage people?

Henry Kaestner: I imagine that translates into role as being a manager. Yeah, right? Because I’m not going to let the hostage thing go. I visited you in your office. It was on Main Street in Hollister, right?

Robert Netzly: No, we moved it from there. We started it there and we moved it. Now we’re in Boise, Idaho, so.

Henry Kaestner: Oh my goodness, I didn’t. Yeah.

Robert Netzly: Yeah, we moved. We escape California and are here. So we moved here in 2020. Super happy. We still have an office in California. I just we love our people there and it is a great community and

Henry Kaestner: you did teach fourth graders OK and I did. Yeah. Aside from your interaction with Chevron, what’s your favorite interaction you’ve had with a company in your role at Inspire?

Robert Netzly: That’s a hard one. I had some good ones. One company that will remain nameless, so I don’t throw them under the bus, but it was a different sort of conversation. It’s a major military contractor, major military contractor, and we called them because they had seemingly started moving towards endorsing, like LGBT activists, sort of legislations and policies that were also discriminatory against people of faith and things of that nature. And so we were just ERG. So I ended up having a conversation with the CFO. And after a few minutes of sort of getting to know each other, he’s feeling me on the phone. He realizes this is a safe space. He opens up and says, You know, I just got to be honest. I go to the Calvary Chapel in the next town over on a Christian. I love Jesus. I resonate with the things that you’re telling me right now and your concerns. But here’s my problem. I’m the CFO of this major military contractor, Fortune 500 company. I sit on the board, obviously, and we are just getting hammered by this really militant group that wants to push this particular agenda and push us in this direction. And I don’t know what to say, but I can’t just say, you know, I’m a Christian. I don’t believe in this stuff. I don’t want to support it. Like that would be suicide and wouldn’t be effective anyway. But he said, Thank you for calling and sharing your perspective because now what I can say in the boardroom is, you know, actually, I just had a conversation with this. Group of investors represent faith based investors all over the globe who see this issue in a different way. And so now I have some counter pressure that I can just say, Hey, you know, we need to serve all of our shareholders. Let’s just do our business and let’s stay out of the social politics arena and just do a good job for our shareholders and make good products that help our troops and everything else stick to the plan. And so it gave him something to, you know, to bring to the meeting. So I thought that was really cool, that we could have that effect.

Luke Roush: All right. I’ve got my three verses. You’re an early adopter in biblically responsible investing, and yet, you know, 10 years in or 15 or 20 years and you look at sort of the percentage of assets within kind of faith driven institutions that are managed in kind of a traditional British manner. And it’s still it’s really early. How do you walk alongside, you know, other investors that maybe kind of either on a different glide path towards a different way of doing what they do or maybe have different views? You know, I’ll always remember this time when Henry and I were in Texas talking about, you know, we kind of avoid alcohol, firearms, adult entertainment, all these things. I said, let’s go back to those firearms for a moment. And so there’s different. People who kind of see things differently, a couple that issues that we should all be able to agree on as believers. But then there’s also some kind of different perspectives, maybe just kind of walk us through and it’s maybe more than a 30 second answer, but walk us through how you have engaged with others in your own journey and then translated that to the journey that there are.

Robert Netzly: It’s a good question. And for us, as an asset manager who you know, you buy one of our funds, we can’t customize this fund for people, right? And so what we found is that having a standard approach to how we’re screening on the screens, we just screen out the same things for everybody. And we don’t do the whole custom screening thing. What we found is if you ask a client what’s important to you, I’m going to customize your screens. Usually it wraps around an . They don’t know how to think about that. And it just kind of it’s not a really positive conversation and it sort of stands out. So instead, we’re just like, what? Here’s the screens and we take the approach where we want to defer to our brothers and sisters who, you know, don’t have a problem with alcohol. I’ll drink a beer with you, right? But I understand I’ve got brothers and sisters who have alcoholism in their personal history. Maybe they’re had an abusive parent or something, and they don’t want to have anything to do with that. So we keep alcohol out of the portfolio. I’m a gun owner. I live in Idaho, you know? But I understand the other side of those issues. And so we add deference to our brothers and sisters. We screen out more than just sort of what, you know, our own personal conscience or whatever else may lead us onto. And what we found is a sort of counterintuitive that the people who care about those issues are absolutely grateful. It allows them to invest with a good conscience in your product. The people that were like, well, alcohol and I don’t really care about it. Well, it’s not like they want to invest in Budweiser specifically, and they’re not going to invest with you because you don’t own Budweiser. It’s just not really important to them. So as long as you can deliver a good product, the more you screen out, the more people you will actually attract and be able to serve is what we have found, and we see people having challenges and they try to water that down or sort of find a middle road. You end up not appealing to anybody.

Luke Roush: What’s something that you see differently than the rest of the world, but they would disagree with you?

Robert Netzly: Yeah. Well, I mean, as far as like the world in general, secular terms of the world, obviously lots of things we see differently. The whole approach to the ESG conversation, you could start with that. You know, we see that differently, both within the faith community and within the secular community. We’re a little bit of a pariah in both of those categories, sometimes because in very conservative Christian circles, ESG is, you know, synonymous with, well, progressive liberal. And they think, well, you know, ESG is evil. On the other side of the equation, you know, ESG does mean, well, the liberal progressive. And we’re not that. And so like, who are you guys to say that you’re is ERG like, you’re not like us, you can’t believe the Bible of Jesus and also see your ESG. So that’s a big differentiator. I think it just makes sense. The Bible tells us to take care of the planet. It doesn’t mean that we can’t pump out of oil out of the ground, but we should do it in a responsible way. Right. We shouldn’t just rape the planet, you know, indiscriminately. We should care for the stewardship of the planet does say how we should care for society people. You know, abortion is wrong. We shouldn’t do that. Those are social issues that are not, you know, the progressive ESG style and governance, corporate governance. Yeah, if the executives are stealing from the company, that’s wrong. If they’re bribing politicians, they shouldn’t do that. So having a truly faith based biblical worldview on ESG and using that terminology, I think is important for a number of reasons, but sometimes causes us to need to explain, you know, on both sides of the equation, you know what that actually means.

Luke Roush: What’s the new discovery? Since you remove the Boycie, you appreciate the most? And what’s the thing that you miss the most about Hollister

Robert Netzly: new discoveries in Idaho, Ben? Just freedom and just leave it at that in a lot of ways. I do miss. There’s just so much in California in general. I mean, you can drive to the beach and then later you can be in the mountains and you can be in the redwoods and it’s all around there, right? And it really is a special place. Just the diverse topography here. Here you’ve got mountains, you’ve got sagebrush, you’ve got topography, but it’s not quite the same. So I’d say I miss that. I was also, I’ll say I’ve been surprised to find that there’s phenomenal coffee shops and exquisite cuisine, including sushi. I had the best sushi in Boise, Idaho. We’re going to have anywhere else in the world. Come on, come on. There is some really good restaurants here and the coffee shops are like and is better in San Francisco or Santa Cruz or any of those other places. I challenge you to that test. That is absolutely true.

Henry Kaestner: All right. So I think you did well. I think you’re around 30 seconds, maybe forty five. But I thought the answers were awesome. We’re going to go back to a tried and true question that we’ve asked every guest across the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast and Faith Driven Investor podcast, and that’s something that you’re hearing. From God’s word, maybe it’s today, maybe it’s over the course of last week, but how is God speaking to you through the Bible?

Robert Netzly: Well, just recently, and this is related to the business where Jesus is really criticizing the Pharisees about use of the analogy that it’s like a cup this washed on the outside, but inside it’s all filthy and they’re just caring about the outside. But the inside is dirty. You know, there’s a lot of applications in our personal lives. We don’t want to look nice and shiny, but that our personal life is a wreck in our thought. Life is a wreck. And I’ve just been convicted that as the Supreme Court is looking at, you know, potentially rolling back Roe v. Wade and broadly expected, you know, ruling that just recently, I was given a statement from one of the most outspoken advocates for pro-life issues huge ministry, $200 million or some endowment. They own five stocks and companies that are manufacturing abortion drugs. Obviously some intentional, but it’s there and it’s across the Christian landscape. And so, you know, as we’re praying for an end to abortion, how can we not also be investing for an end to an abortion? So we really need to, you know, not just have a nice looking portfolio in terms of returns, risk adjusted or anything, but inside we’ve got to clean that up and things like abortion drugs do not belong, you know, in a portfolio like that. So that’s the stuff that’s been on my heart and God’s grace will we’ll get there?

Henry Kaestner: So you have been called the best dressed man in the world of faith driven investing. So that has nothing. So that passage in Matthew that you refer to presumably has nothing to do with you.

Robert Netzly: I hope not. But yes, in some sense, of course, my cup inside needs to be washed daily so that you’re

Henry Kaestner: not refuting the fact that you’re the best dressed man in Faith Driven

Robert Netzly: Investor. Well, I’m not saying that either. I don’t know anything.

Henry Kaestner: It’s awesome seeing you again. I’m sorry to have not known that you believed. I mourn the loss of another great, committed Christ follower that’s serious about faith and investing in this fine city, California. We’ve lost two great ones over the last two years, Luke and now Robert nicely. But I’m grateful for you. Spend the time and in via Zoom and and share with us.

Robert Netzly: It is my honor. Thank you guys for having me.

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Johan du Preez’s career is defined by ambitious initiatives and big results. He says,“Capital always has an agenda. Whether by design or default, explicit or subtle, positive or negative, the application of capital facilitates and drives a bigger agenda.” Find out how this philosophy guides him to invest in partnerships that benefit the Kingdom, not just the marketplace.