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Most tech headlines in recent months involve stories of layoffs and massive shifts. So what’s going on?

In this episode of Marks on the Markets, Jake Thomsen, and Ben Hames join host John Coleman to discuss the changes they see in the industry and what investors should consider as they start the new year.

The trio also debates about Elon Musk, the Metaverse, and whether or not Web 3.0 will live up to its hype. Someone even gets called a communist. 

It’s a jam-packed episode to kick off the new year. Make sure you follow the show on your favorite streaming service so you never miss another episode.

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is your host, John Coleman, and we are bringing you our monthly marks on the markets. This is where we feature great Christian investors across the spectrum offering perspectives on current market environments. We are actually recording this right now just before the holidays, so there will be a longer delay than normal. We usually release this just a few days after recording, but we’ll be releasing this after the New Year. So happy New Year to everyone. We’re recording this just on the eve of Christmas right now. And we are hopeful that many of the themes that we talk about will be just as relevant a couple of weeks from now as they are now. I’d like to welcome today our two guests, Jake Thomsen, who leads venture capital investing for Sovereign’s Capital, and Ben Hames, who’s the CEO of Eight Ventures, Private Wealth in Atlanta.

Jake Thomsen: Excited to be here. A lot going on in the marketplace and in tech. So I’m honored to be with you both.

Ben Hames: Well, it’s wonderful to be here, John. Love the work you guys are doing through sovereigns. And I look forward to a good conversation today.

John Coleman: Well, today we have a very interesting topic in mind. We want to talk about the great tech reset and whether there is, in fact, some sort of reset going on within technology. Obviously, over the course of the last year, growth in technology stocks in particular will have declined. We’ve seen a slowdown in growth, equity and venture capital markets on the private side. And then there have been very high profile examples of disruptions within tech companies like Meta, like Twitter, which we’ll dig into a little bit more deeply coming up and across the board. So the first question I have for you all and I’ll start with Ben, maybe for the public markets perspective and just hear from Jake how that’s playing out in private markets. But is the current decline in technology stocks likely to go further?

Ben Hames: Yeah, great question. You know, I think we all understand the enhanced risk of what was effectively free money. It’s been a very cheap time to hold long term assets over the last two years. And with that, there’s a loss of discipline. And so if you look back, you know, a year or two years ago, you see some very lousy valuations, particularly tied to non-profitable tech. As you know, as I’ve been going through year end meetings and planning meetings for 2023 with clients, you know, we talked about what we did well, what we could have done better. You know, certainly look in the mirror as a manager and trying to look at those things and very much of a Warren Buffett annual letter style to look at pros and cons, what we did well, what could have done better. You know, one of the things that you really needed to do in 2022 is the rates reset and begin to normalize is to have avoided the big pitfalls. One of those was non-profitable tech, which has just been crushed. You know, our Cathie Wood followers out there have felt the [….] of it. You know, Ark innovation, ticker symbol ARKK down 80% alphabetized. And that’s really what it is. It’s a collection of interesting ideas, futuristic companies, disruptors, you know. But when you cut down to what the EPS, I think their 2022 number is, you know, almost $6 a share loss. Right. And this is trading at 160 plus. You know, now we’ve lost 80%, but still worth 30 something dollars a share and we’re losing $6 a share. Right. You know, you did the math on that. It’s just so dramatically different when you start to imply a real cost of capital. So, you know, again, you know, as I talk to folks, sometimes clients who are interested in those kind of investments, you know, over the last few years, it’s really been a, gosh, how do we even think about the value of these things? Right. This could be a great idea. This company could in fact, be a disruptor in the market. But we’re just out in space in terms of these valuations. You have a lot of companies who don’t even sniff a profit in the near term and they’re trying to tens of billions in valuation. So yeah, yeah. I think the big thing in 22 is I think about it is just really being exposed. If you were, you know, pretty heavily invested in non-profitable tech. So, you know, I’ll say one other thing and in wrap, yeah, as we think about, for example, the tech crash around 2000 and look at where we are today. I mean, you really do. You are anchored today by big, stable mega tech companies, companies that we live by. And really, those valuations are pretty interesting. Now, you know, I always go back to Warren Buffett like a good Christian, go into C.S. Lewis in investing, you know, we look into everything he has said in his annual letters and parsed those and learned from them. But, you know, if you like, if you like the stock, you know, this company at 40, you should love it at 30 and you should be banging in the desk to buy it at 20. And so, you know, I look at Google, I look at even Meta, which is, you know, interesting and risky. This stuff is beginning to look interesting. Make Tesla, you know, we’re now at 22 times next year’s earnings, I think. So again, those that love that much higher prices should really be interested now.

John Coleman: Yeah, you are right. That’s one of the things I see that’s different than the dot com bubble, which we can talk about a little bit. You know, we saw precipitous declines, but at that time, so much of it was really speculative technology, right? There wasn’t this floor of companies with genuine business models like Tesla is a good company. Amazon’s a good company. You know, Meta is a good company in its own right. At least you could argue it is improfitable, right. Some of these are profitable. And it does feel like a lot of the air has already been let out, although it certainly could face further declines Jake. How is that playing out in private markets right now?

Jake Thomsen: Yeah, so the private markets really follow public so much in the out of from what you guys are saying. I think that the SPAC segment about those tech companies is probably the closest to the dot.com. And I think we’ve seen a lot of that air let out, as you mentioned, John. And I think you’ve been you’re talking about Google and others. It feels to me that there’s an upward pressure on a lot of these companies that are inherently still very high quality. They’re cutting a lot of costs. Right. Google is expected next year probably to cut 10,000 people that an average salary of $300,000. That’s $3 billion. That’s going to go to the bottom line almost overnight. And so you think about that upward pressure or below that long term valuation multiples and yet interest rates are still climbing. Right. I think what we saw in the dot com bubble was as soon as everything popped, started getting a little bit higher quality in the fundamentals and then interest rates started going back down to call it six and a half percent, 1%. That’s where we really saw things starting to come back. So that’s what we’re watching for on the public side, because it does inform everything in the private markets in the later stages in private markets, ten, you’ll call it series B, C, D plus really mimics those public markets. What we’re seeing really interestingly on the earliest stages of seed especially is there’s still so much dry powder out there, so much that’s sitting in funds, still $200 billion or so that there are many fewer deals being done on the seed side. And yet the valuations are staying pretty steady. So it’ll be interesting to see from my vantage point are racing to come back and public markets recover before all that seed capital is deployed and those valuations start to normalize a little bit, too. But that’s the big unknown right now that we’re watching. But certainly seeing a lot of those valuations that have come down seem to be pretty steady below the long term averages. And that makes for a pretty compelling market to be investing in.

John Coleman: You know, you touch on one topic that I’m interested in, Jake, and I’d put this to either of you. I remember the very first time I visited Northern California to look at tech companies back in graduate school. I visited one of these companies we’ve named, which shall remain nameless, and it was just overwhelming the amenities when you walked in the door, right. There were, you know, recycled rainforest wood floors, and you were never more than a hundred feet from a full kitchen. And, you know, all this sorts of stuff that tech has become just notorious for profligate spending, incredible benefits, great if you’re working there. But the culture was one where money flow freely and there were a ton of fringe benefits. Now we’re really seeing the first round of layoffs with this new era of tech, even at the big and profitable companies like Meta. Is that going to change culture? You know, do you think these layoffs are going to be consistent throughout the industry? Do you think cost saving now becomes something that tech companies look to to generate profitability? To your point Ben and what does that do to the culture of Silicon Valley and the culture of technology?

Ben Hames: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really part of this reset where you do have a real cost of capital now and you have a new focus on the bottom line and earnings per share. You know, not to suggest that 2021 for Meta is, you know, should be the baseline of what we would consider normalized earnings. But, you know, at the moment, it varies in a moment, day to day. But, you know, we’re trading at about eight times 2021 earnings for Meta. We start thinking about companies that get in the mode of manufacturing earnings, what you can do with the levers of expenses and hiring and whatnot. I mean, this is about many measures, a very cheap company if they want to continue to do what they’ve done. And it does a little bit more about Meta, though, in which I think it’s such an interesting investment case right now. Yeah, they have that problem of this is, you know, a industrialist who’s been very successful at everything they’ve done and now they want your money to go and, you know, have a number of venues drive it. So they’re kind of transforming themselves as they transform into the the metaverse dominant player into something different. Right. So there’s a lot of concern that goes with that. And expenses have been through the roof in that transition. So again, that that’s part of the thing that makes this is such a difficult case to analyze in terms of future investment. But again, I think you’re seeing those companies, you know, Google, Meta begin to cut costs, to focus on that. And I think that bodes well for tech investors.

Jake Thomsen: Yeah, I jump on that and say it seems like a lot of these companies are going to follow the playbook that you see Microsoft and others playing where you get to a certain level of maturity and you can start to wring out some of the costs. And Wall Street really respond to that. And this is a time in the cycle where some of these companies are looking for that impact for shareholders. So I do think we’re headed that way. Even the dynamics, the fundamentals are back ten, 15 years ago when you had 10% of graduates in Silicon Valley were computer science majors. Right. These days, it’s more like 50 to 60%. You’re starting to see that supply, which sure, there’s a bit of a long tail to get in the system. But once they’re in there, there’s just a lot less competition for them. So I think you’re going to see more of these maybe almost in a ratchet effect where bringing it down is part of the cycle. I don’t know if they’re necessarily you’re going to come back, but I do think it’ll impact culture because a lot of folks didn’t sign up to be at these kinds of almost feels like PE style bring out the costs. Right. To figure out how to increase the bottom line. A lot of these tech folks, they signed on a very different company. So be interested to see how that change in culture impacts retention. A lot of developers of top tech companies.

John Coleman: Well, and I want to zero in on the people side of this, Jake, because you and I have talked about it before. I’m just consistently struck when I look at technology companies, particularly bigger ones, how few people within the companies are actually engineers. So, you know, there are a number of different positions. I can’t for the life of me understand a lot of titles within the companies and just understand what people do. And I think this idea that tech might be radically overstaffed, so not by ten, 20% overstaffed, but potentially 50, 60, 75% overstaffed, really came to a head with the Twitter acquisition by Elon Musk. Right. I mean, in the first three weeks, he took that organization from 7500 people to 2700 people right in the course of three weeks. So we’re not arguing necessarily that that was done well or that that’s the right way to do things. But I know a lot of folks in Silicon Valley have been watching to say like, oh, my gosh, are we really operating at more than twice the number of people we need to do well and have we so overstaffed on non engineering or non-technical people that we’re actually diluting the impact that those folks can have? What do you think about that? Because I actually believe it could be true in a lot of tech companies that they could be twice overstaffed what they need to be to be effective. But maybe, Jake, starting with you and then to you, Ben. And what do you see? Do you think that might be the right case or do you think that that’s swung too far, that what happened at Twitter was ineffective, there couldn’t be as effective in other places?

Jake Thomsen: That message resonates for me, for public companies and later stage companies and analysts acknowledge, too. Of course, we’re talking about big numbers of job losses in the rest, and it’s really easy to talk about them as numbers. Right. So just wanted knowledge and honor that these are individuals and families and that’s hard. So I’ll start with that. But what we’ve seen is a lot of these tech companies, you grow to a certain size if you’re a public tech company. And there’s a sense where complacency is forgiven, right? Where there’s not the same scrappiness. Right. Elon got it. This was like, hey, we’re going to work long hours and we might even work on weekends, right? Which had a lot of people up in arms because getting back to the roots of really hard work and this is completely anecdotal and unfair because I know it’s incredible individuals at all of these companies, but I think about the developers at top tech companies, public companies that I know they’re probably putting in 30, 35 hours a week. Right. That in some cases includes video game time, right. At these really, really fun jobs. And the developers I know and all the startups will be back are putting in at least double. Right. This is a totally different culture. So I think there is some element of that culture in that what some might call bloat that you simply can get rid of and a company is going to be okay. But there’s also very rational side of that that I’d say where tech companies tend to be these lean startup mentalities, right? Build, measure, learn. You don’t always know what the market wants to go build something, see how reacts. Where do we reinvest then? And when capital is cheap or free, it makes a lot of sense to overstaffed, to go seed something, to see where it goes. But once capital starts to increase in its cost, then I’ll set the ROI of those kinds of endeavors, whether they’re moonshots or everyday efficiencies that starts to go down. So I think there’s a very rational case to be made where when capital’s cheap, you kind of want to air…. The bloat in tech and then now there’s coming back down from more expensive. You’re going to see a lot of those that they just no longer make sense. Status positions.

Ben Hames: Yeah you guys are great in sight Jake you have a lot more experience on the ground with those companies and operators. But I will say, you know, I reflect on what had been some bizarre business news stories of the last couple of years related to this, you know, one being the collusion among tech companies to not poach from one another, which is such an, you know, an odd time, you know, but then also the later variety of that story has been the hoarding talent, you know, that you would have these counter-accusations between these big hard entities where they’re, you know, you don’t need these people. You’re hiring all these extra folks and taking them from the market and harming the market in general. You know, again, a very strange time. You know, I will say a lot of the broader discussion in the economy right now and certainly with markets where we have a severe recession going into 2023. You know, I think a big part of that is hiring. We’re talking a little bit about layoffs in the tech space, and we’re just focused on tech in general today. But more broadly speaking, you know, hiring is still happening at a pretty robust clip. I think in 2019, the average monthly new hires was 164,000. Latest numbers from November. 264,000. So the hiring is still rapid in the face of this bad hype campaign. So, you know, again, we’re getting some headlines and some of the tech layoffs and these big companies and again, some new fiscal discipline that I think most tech investors will welcome. But as of right now, I think there’s 4 million more job openings that are unemployed Americans. And this is a big part of the recession discussion, the inflation discussion, but still persistent inflationary pressure on the wage fraud. As you look beyond tech and across the economy, significant tightness in the labor market.

John Coleman: Well, and that’s why it is so interesting right now. Right. Because typically when you raise rates like this, it does cause a recession. There’s a chance we’re in a recession now. There’s a chance that we’ll see that deep end next year. But thus far, it really hasn’t played out in employment. Right. The labor markets are still relatively tight. Consumer spending seems to be relatively strong right now. There are certain segments that are very interest rate dependent that have obviously got hit very hard. You know, new home building or mortgages, etc., are in a difficult spot right now because of rates. But there hasn’t been the kind of real economy hit that I think you would expect after such dramatic rate tightening yet. And the question is, of course, whether that does hit. I don’t want to spend too much time on this necessarily, but it’s hard to talk about technology right now without talking about the private company, Twitter, and obviously the activities of Elon Musk as of this recording. Musk has done a survey on Twitter about whether he should be CEO and has decided to step down. There are a whole host of implications because Musk is really at the top of a number of the most innovative companies in the world. Right. SpaceX, Tesla, Neuralink, and now Twitter are all in very different areas. And he seems to have his hands on a lot of those spaces. Right now, Tesla stock is cratering as a result partially of people believing that he’s distracted. Twitter obviously took on a lot of debt, maybe just starting out of the gates. I mean, Jake, what’s your impression of what’s going on out there? And is Elon still, you know, a genius? He’s going to be able to turn all this stuff around or has he finally met his match in what he’s taken on here? What’s your read on what everyone’s talking about right now in Silicon Valley?

Jake Thomsen: Yeah, the only thing I can say with confidence is I’ve considered canceling my Netflix subscription and just read Elon’s tweets over the last few weeks because they are oh, my gosh, they are golden at times. And it is it’s you know, you would not expect a public company CEO to be engaging in some of those ways, but it’s anybody’s guess. You know, some folks will say, why is he wasting all this time here where he has all these world changing companies that he should be leading and really focusing on? And I think there’s a case to be made that Twitter is our de facto public square. It’s worth the focus of somebody really, really smart. And I do think that he’s working really hard to extricate himself from Twitter. He’s trying to hand over some folks that, at least from what some people are saying, weren’t that interested in taking it on Twitter. He doesn’t have the heir apparent at this point. But I would say, you know, it turns out empirically there are really only three categories or three times where a public company CEO deeply drives an outcome in terms of value creation. The first one is when they are the ones that are setting culture. Right. And there’s more research on this happening in the faith driven sphere, especially. The second one is when there’s a major transition. The third one is when the company is a very innovative company and the CEO is driving that innovation, all of Steve Jobs. And so it’s such a good question. Longway we’re just getting my affirmation of your question because he’s such a smart, gifted guy who probably does drive to [….] that a lot of these companies are delivering, especially the earlier ones like the Neuralink’s and others that are potential categories in the future that need him in the earlier days more than maybe Tesla does or others that have a bevy of engineers and leaders. But it’s certainly a notable time watching a leader like Elon.

John Coleman: Yeah. What do you think, Ben? I mean, you’re watching this, you have talked about Tesla before

Ben Hames: I’ll try not to get too lost in the weeds of that momentary headline, such Elon is really good creating. You know, I hope in the rearview mirror a year, ten years from now, Elon Musk will be a champion for free speech. And I think he is positioned to do that. Maybe he does that more effectively as the owner and not the guy who’s, you know, fighting with tweets. It’s hard to do, right? It’s hard to do well over an extended period of time. You know, if I am a significant Tesla investor, I probably would love the idea of him not continuing to operate as he has in these first few days and weeks. So, yeah, remains to be seen.

John Coleman: Well, you know, he’s got good teams there. I think everybody knows that. SpaceX, Tesla and Neuralink are now, or at least SpaceX and Tesla seem really deep. I’m less knowledgeable about Neuralink, like you said, Jake. Part of me thinks, gosh, you’re getting to Mars, creating full autonomy, creating human computer interfaces like why?

Jake Thomsen: And doing the blue chips. One of these things does not belong. Yeah, exactly.

John Coleman: But you’re right. I mean, this is look, if you think about the culture, this idea of a public space, of speech, of what’s acceptable, of how we should communicate with each other is a cultural touchstone right now. And and certainly his instincts have been very strong historically about what was needed in the moment. And those companies seem to be creating durable values. And you look at SpaceX. Not only are they going to Mars, but they have the broadest satellite network in the world now. I mean, they’re delivering Internet to Ukraine right now and to hurricane stricken areas. It’s just fascinating to see what that will look like in the future. Moving to another pretty notable entrepreneur right now, Mark Zuckerberg. You know, Mark made this massive bet in transitioning Facebook to meta, moving away from social network to creating the metaverse. And I think he’s bet billions of dollars or tens of billions of dollars on creating the metaverse. And so far, Meta has really gotten punished in the public markets partially as a result of the downturn, but partially because a lot of the hoped for success in the metaverse, at least within the context of that company, has not materialized. Jake, I know you’ve invested in the space. Is the metaverse dead or are we going to see some sort of resurrection here? And is Zuckerberg on the right track, or do you think there’s actually needed a pivot right now on how we think about it?

Jake Thomsen: I don’t think Metaverse is dead. I would probably, as a meta observation, so to speak, I’d say this is a reasonable bet from his perspective, because you see, the long arc of innovation is that some of these these hardware’s over the last 30 plus years have gone from desktop to laptop to mobile. And a lot would say that augmented reality, virtual reality may be the next on that path. Right. And they’re increasingly ubiquitous, they’re increasingly immersive, they’re increasingly part of our lives. And so it’s not crazy to think, especially when glasses come out right, where you’re almost RoboCop style. You bring the glasses, you can see through them. But maybe the three of us can be sitting in a room engaging with each other. Right. For instance. And people oftentimes think of virtual reality, just little clunkier, fewer use cases. But as Oculus comes out with its pro headset, which is already announced as Apple comes out with the headset next year, I think we’re going to see continued interest in this. I don’t know if it’s truly going to be the integral part of our lives that Zuckerberg hopes, but I think it’s a reasonable bet because what he’s doing is he’s standing against the innovator’s dilemma, right? Where you get to be such a big company and something is working and that thing that is working, all the stakeholders have an incentive to just keep focusing on that and then eventually somebody leapfrogs you because you’re not thinking ahead. But he’s investing downstream of consumer behavior, and that’s a really important thing that startups can do. But oftentimes public companies can’t necessarily. But because of the voting structure, which is frustrated, some folks is able to. So I think the metaverse holds a lot of promise. It probably doesn’t look a lot like what most folks think it would. And from Meta’s perspective, I think it’s a reasonable bet, at least in the medium term.

John Coleman: What do you think, Ben? What’s your metaverse avatar right now?

Ben Hames: Yeah, that’s what I wanted to get into. I was hoping we would go there. Yeah, I have mixed comments here. You know, first and foremost, you know, more of us living more in an alternate universe and taking advantage of kind of products that will be offered in the metaverse strikes me as a dystopian situation. But from an investment perspective, you know, there has been this trend, as Jake outlines of, you know, further and further entrenchment into our lives and more time spent aiming and interacting virtually. I mean, my goodness, just think of Zoom and and its competitors and how that’s reshaped work life. Yeah, it’s going to be interesting to see. You know, again, I think if I could just talk a little bit about the investment case for Meta. You know, there’s part of me that has to keep in mind the ability that they would have to just retrench and go back to the tried and true model that they have and pull those levers. And all of a sudden you have something that’s really valuable, not that risky, and trading at a pretty cheap price. And so, you know, again, I sort of view it as a this may be a disaster for Meta in terms of the foray into the metaverse and the big expenses, but it may in the NBA blip and they go back to the old Facebook and advertising and making a whole lot of money.

John Coleman: Yeah. And you know, the other Elon twist here that’s interesting from my perspective is, you know, it’s been a taboo topic forever to have social media companies charge their users. Right. It’s been an advertising model. The user has been the product, they sell data, etc.. And Elon has kind of opened Pandora’s box, so to speak, on trying to charge people for the blue checks, which Jake noted $8 or $11 if you’re on the Apple store. And one thing I’m interested in watching is if that does get some traction, which seems moderate so far, whether that impacts the core business models of some of the other social companies and whether they try and adopt that much the way that media companies have, you know, media companies, for a long time, it was thought that online information was going to be free. And now paywalls have gone up around the number of media companies and even substack, which is something in between social media and a media company obviously charges for newsletters or has authors charge for newsletters. So I’m fascinated to see where that ends up as well and what the charge model will look like moving forward. To speak of a more precipitous and obvious decline before moving into something really interesting and hopeful that’s happened as of this recording very recent news, Sam Bankman-Fried is on his way back to the United States, where he faces potential jail time or I think he may have already been transferred to the pen in New York. News today was that his two counterparts, Caroline Ellison and one of his co-founders, have turned on him and so have pled guilty to their charges and are theoretically cooperating with authorities and FTX obviously just suffered a precipitous collapse. Kind of same question with the metaverse, with the collapse of FTX, with the collapse of so many coins around this web 3.0 was supposed to be the next big thing between bored apes and cryptocurrencies in these exchanges is that dead is web 3.0. Do we need to find a web 4.0 now? What’s next Jake?

Jake Thomsen: Yeah, I say it’s not dead but is indeed hung over. So it feels dead, but it’s going to pull itself out of bed.

John Coleman: It’s mostly dead, as they say in The Princess Bride or.

Jake Thomsen: Yeah, that’s true. They are doing this, but it’s getting nursed itself back to health. And I delineate two different parts of this, right? One is the core web. Three, the blockchain technology part aside from crypto. And to me that feels like such a logical progression to say it is inevitable. Is it based on word? But did you use a taxonomy like web one was? We read the internet, right web two is we read and write right blogs and Facebook and the rest. Web three is really about reading, writing and owning. We own our information, we own our content, we own our contributions. We benefit from contributions to social networks. Right. And that that is something consumers are going to want. It’s going to be consumer demand. So those companies that are building on a web3 blockchain technology are going to be the ones that do very well in the future. So I don’t think it’s as a category. It’s dead. What I do think is we’re not going to talk about it quite as much in the same way we don’t talk about Internet companies, we don’t talk about AI companies, we talk about tech companies because those things have become such an integral part of those technology stacks. They’re just part of companies. Now, I think we’re going to see the most innovative tech companies built on web3 infrastructure. They won’t be a Web three company, they’ll just be a tech company. So I think that’ll stick around. It’ll be maybe a little more muted longer term in terms of crypto, which is the juicy part of the sector. I’ll tell you that the analogy that resonates for me is it is a force that was in need of a fire for its own long term health. It’s really hard in the meantime, but you got to you got to have that pruning of the ecosystem so it can really grow. And as we talked about before, they’re just thousands of thousand points that probably shouldn’t exist. I think a lot of those go away. Even the really good coins that weren’t the main ones, but some of that, old coins in that were really good business cases. I think they had a problem of governance, right, where you would have some of these founders that made their money before they really created values, they cashed out and weren’t aligned long term because they were in the tokens rather than the equity. What I do think is FTX this whole debacle is going to put a focus on governance. Then investors will say, All right, I like this project, but we’re going to make sure we align these interests. And that’s going to enable these incredible founders with good technologies, good products to actually come out of the rubble. I think there will be a handful of some the best web3 crypto companies that will come out this time. But it’s not a space that I would necessarily recommend anybody go and start pouring lots of money into right at this point.

John Coleman: When I like your description, Web 3.0 is about what we own and part of the FTX debacle, right, was people thought they owned something that was actually being traded and owned by Alameda Research. Right. Which was FTX was practically personal family office. And that was all of this is allegedly, of course. But, you know, that was a real betrayal of the underlying infrastructure of that and people becoming nervous about what they actually own.

Jake Thomsen: Well, I’ll add to that that the Web3 enthusiasts would say, well, the big problem is that was a centralized exchange. So the problem, web3, is that could have been defi decentralized finance, where you didn’t have somebody like SBF that’s calling all the shots and you would be unable to do that because the math would be unable to do that. Right. An algorithm can go buy a penthouse in the Bahamas, right? Only a person can. And so a lot of folks would say if that were truly set up on web3 infrastructure to then trade web3 assets, then you wouldn’t have had the FTX debacle.

Ben Hames: You know, it’s interesting you bring that up because I hear a lot of versions of that with regard to crypto and what’s happened in the last year, which, you know, again, maybe there’s some merit there, but it strikes me as very similar to the arguments we always hear about communism. It’s never been practiced. Is it true to its form? Is there have been done well and if it were, it would create a utopia. But you know, you think about all the things that and I’m you know, I’m out there and have been for a long time. I’m not a fan of crypto, you know, all the things that it was supposed to solve, you know, it really has failed with flying colors quickly. Yeah. Yeah. You see, you know, there’s an effort to differentiate, right? Is it Bitcoin is the thing. You know, I’m in that crowd. I can’t get past. I don’t know why it’s worth anything. Right? I mean, was it overvalued at 60,000? It now is worth 16. You know, again, we kind of go back to some of those valuation discussions we had earlier thinking about valuing companies by that op ratio or you know, we haven’t talked about some of the alternative valuation methods, but, you know, the rule of 40 or some of the things that people would use in the tech space, you know, where we have some tools where we can try to assess and apply value. You know, to me, the fact that blockchain technology is a valuable technology and will continue to be more valuable in the future, it just implies no particular value to crypto, right? I mean, it’s a non sequitur that bitcoin is worth $500, much less 17,000 because blockchain technology is valuable. Yeah, that’s the case I would make is though, you know, I just can’t get comfortable with this at any price.

John Coleman: Well, and Jake, since Ben did just call you a communist, I think you get to respond.

Ben Hames: Well.

Jake Thomsen: And is a good thoughts, comrade. But I mean, you know, those are all great thoughts and and the right kind of question that we need to be hold in the industry, too, over time. I suspect I see all the innovation come out of bull markets there, and I do think there’s more value it created over time. It’s got to have an actual problem being solved, whereas much of it doesn’t yet. So a little bit to be determined and it’s a fair, [….]. Absolutely.

John Coleman: So I want to kind of close we’re going to close formally on asking what you guys are learning through scripture right now that you want to share with others. But as we pivot, you know, we’re thinking about a great tech reset, right? There’s been a collapse in these markets. They’re undergoing layoffs like the dot com bubble. What came out of that was much different than what went in. Right. We came out with a more stable base of real companies that were growing after that. As you guys look at what’s happening today and we reset valuations in technology and also potentially where people are focused, what are you most excited about in technology right now? So maybe, Ben, start with you, but are there areas of technology that you’re excited about investing right now?

Ben Hames: Yeah, it’s I think it’s really hard to pick the winners in this space. And so partially, I’ve sort of hedged the bad in this space by making some broader plays. But I really like cyber. I think that’s a part of the spin that is going to grow. You know, I think, you know, we’ve recently seen in business news there’s a large zeal for all going on and the banks are are working together to determine how to refund those defrauded and that sort of thing. But again, it’s hitting us on all fronts. That’s the space that I want to be in and want to be exposed to have been and continue to think that’s an important place for folks to have exposure.

John Coleman: Jake, what do you think? Where are you guys focused as you look at early stage tech companies right now?

Jake Thomsen: Yeah, I’ll offer a bit more. General answer and more stage focus. And that’s really in the series A. As I mentioned, that’s not an area that I’d start to see the valuations coming down. A lot of companies that raise, call it 12 to 18 months of capital in the last year. So they’re coming up maybe mid 2023 to raise capital. Do you find a company that is capital efficient actually solving a big problem with a greedy creative leader? There are a lot of companies that unfortunately are holding period of time I think PE is going to take out a lot of the other ones that are at really good valuations. So I think the playing field is going to be winnowed a bit and these are going to be types of companies that longer term are going to be successful. And I think the valuations make that even more than seed and more than later stage. Really compelling, particularly because seed and series A they tend to be the highest performing in terms of internal rate of return for a very early stage. So that’s what we’re really looking at over the next six, nine months in particular.

John Coleman: That’s great. And I would just add two thoughts from my end. One thing that’s really caught my attention lately is artificial intelligence with chat GPT coming out and proving some of the power of that technology and that we actually have crossed the threshold at which that technology has consumer applications and is good. Right. You use chat GPT. And for its current use case, it’s actually a remarkable piece of programing, a remarkable piece of technology that’s likely to unlock a number of other things, both good and bad. But AI is on my radar, and I still think we’re going to see a lot of innovation in health care right now, particularly remote delivery of health care, telehealth, virtual health care. You know, that was a hot item during the pandemic because people couldn’t get physically to their health care. But it just seems like a lot of the stickiness of that model is starting to manifest in the market. And I just I think there’s a lot of innovation to continue to happen in this space of more bespoke health care delivery, particularly things like telehealth, which is one thing I think will make people’s lives better, but also could present some interesting investments. You know, we always like to close this because it’s the Faith Driven Investor podcast, and I know you two are both great men of faith with you offering just your thoughts on what God’s teaching you through Scripture right now that you might want to share with others. And so if you don’t mind, Jake, we might start with you and then Ben, you can close us out.

Jake Thomsen: I’d be happy to set the bar very low. So we’re going through a study. This is actually at work with our investment team, going through a study now. And what we highlight recently, Joy and I was just very struck reading of scripture about joy of how elusive, sometimes true deep joy can be. And there’s a quick framework of this that joy involves. Step one just recognize the way that Christ is in the day to day, right, of all the various blessing that we have. Number two, trust him in those moments where it’s not necessarily easy to see how things work out. And number three, thank him. Right. Almost a discipline of Thanksgiving and how if we can do those things consistently, it cultivates joy in our hearts. And this has been a big blessing to dive that top and joy in the season. Even with everything go on the markets where it’s easy for our heads to be steady and the rest, and yet our hearts do still go up and down with market.

John Coleman: It’s a good word, Jake. Pastor Ben, what do you think?

Ben Hames: Well, that I’ll it’ll be tough to follow that. You know, I will reflect on something that Erin and I had recently. I of course, Erin’s my wife. We were recently reflecting on. We have for 20 plus years now practice the Sabbath. I guess it’s been about 20 years to study. While we were in seminary, we determined that we should continue to honor and practice the Sabbath in a way that is sort of countercultural, even within Christian circles. And yet we were, as we reflected on 20 years of doing that. You know, I can recall that early along at certain points, you know, I guess on occasions feel somewhat restricted, the things that we said that we wouldn’t do on Sunday, you know, as we look back through the seasons of our life now 20 years of marriage and now I have a ten year old and a six year old. This has was such a gift, right, to have this sacred day that will you know, we won’t lead our ox into the ditch. We’ll do the work. We do all the things we need to do to have that day set aside and to disallow ourselves or to imagine that God intends for us not to work and have others work in our stead on that day. You know, in a busy world, in a stressful two or three years here with COVID in these things, that has been such an incredible gift for us and just, I think, imparted such peace, such time for worship, for family time when we just said this is what we can do. I mean, I’m reminded of an old Hebrew parable where, you know, there is a gentleman who is walking in his field on a Saturday and he sees a fence that needs repair. And he has this idea that he won’t even be able to repair it because he saw it on the Sabbath. Right. But, you know, just that that kind of idea that we’ve tried to live out and then no doubt very roughly and poorly by some measures, certainly of some of our Jewish friends that do so well. But I would just commend, you know, some type of Sabbath to all my friends and those I would care about. It’s something that’s just been very life given. For us as a family.

John Coleman: Amen and Amen. Well, Jake Thompson, Ben Hames, we are really grateful for you spending time with us today on the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I know I feel like I’m leaving with a better perspective on technology in the marketplace and certainly the wisdom that you shared on your own faith journeys has been important. So thank you all for joining us today and we hope to see you again soon.

Jake Thomsen: Thank you, John. Thanks, Ben. Good to be with both.

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If you joined us for the Faith Driven Entrepreneur conference, you’re in for a treat. This is the full interview with Strive Masiyiwa, Founder and Executive Chairman of the Econet, and one of Africa’s most respected business leaders. In this episode, Strive speaks about Africa’s role within the global marketplace. He also shares how faith has empowered him to operate in the world without fear and how other entrepreneurs can go bravely into the spheres God called them. 

If you weren’t there for the live event, you can still access the conference recordings here. Check out more from Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa at africa.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org.

Episode Transcript

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa podcast. I’m here, as always, with Ndidi. Ndidi, good morning.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Good morning. Great to be here.

Henry Kaestner: I am so fired up about today. We’ve got a really dynamic and very, very successful man of God who has an incredible story and you know it infinitely more than I. But tell us a little bit about why you’re excited about our special guest today.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Well Strive Masiyiwa is recognized within Africa and around the world as one of our leaders in the business sector in Africa. He’s Zimbabwean started as a young entrepreneurs built multiple businesses in telecoms, in financial services, in construction and is also recognized as a philanthropist. He’s been the chair of many, many boards, including AGRA. He serves on the board of the Rockefeller Foundation, most recently joined the board of the Gates Foundation, this pioneer board. And he is just absolutely brilliant. He’s also recognized philanthropist. His wife and him have started the Higher Life Foundation, which serves millions of young people across Africa, and he’s recognized as a speaker. I mean, he has the biggest social media following. And I know Henry was a bit envious when we look at the number of people who follow him on Facebook, on Instagram, millions of young people who draw inspiration from his life and his walk with God. And he’s so authentic when he shares his life stories on all of these platforms. So I’m really excited to hear what he has to share with us today about his walk with God, about his business, about his role as a father and his role as a philanthropist.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed, one of the things that I’m really excited about today is that we infrequently have so many from the world of telecom, and that’s my background. It’s how God has blessed me and I’m grateful for it. But telecom is not always the most interesting thing. But when you look at somebody like Strive, it becomes incredibly interesting. And yes, because of the size and scale of what he’s done with Econet Wireless all across the continent, but also the way he’s taken on just different power structures like even Mugabe and presidents. Right. You’ve seen a guy who’s fearless on behalf of the marketplace and fairness, and what an inspiration. Strive. I’m so grateful that you spent the time to join us today, and I’m looking forward to our audience hearing from you. Before we get started, give us an overview, a bigger perspective, if you will, for Africa.

Strive Masiyiwa: Well, let me just give you something people don’t often hear about Africa. Let me show you Africa as an entrepreneur, as I see Africa. Africa is a continent of 1.3 billion people. It has a GDP of $2.5 trillion. It is almost twice the size of the GDP of Russia. It is the same GDP size as India. It is a huge economy. We trade with the world at 500 billion a year. We receive less than 20 billion in aid, and most of that goes to less than a dozen countries. So Africa is a real place. It’s a real economy. Okay. There are people building businesses in Africa, the continental businesses that are huge businesses. We have them. We have companies in Africa that make jet aircraft. We have nuclear power stations in South Africa. So, you know, today 60% of the world’s young people are African. By the turn of the century, 40% of the world’s population will be Africans. You know, so Africa is a fundamental part of the global economy. And what Africa needs today is people who think of it in terms of an economy, a vibrant place of entrepreneurs. Yes, we have our challenges of poverty and injustices. We have wars in some places. But hey, there’s a war in Europe right now, and they’ve been trying to stop wars for a long time. Okay. But I can tell you that we’ve never had an African country invade an African country, even though we have a lot of challenges over borders. We’ve never, ever seen an African army cross the border to another African country. Not in my lifetime. Okay. We don’t allow that. Do we like where our borders are? No, we don’t. So there’s an Africa. We want you to engage with the Africa of Africa’s entrepreneurs. The Africa. We have more Christians than the population of the United States. Okay. We have more Christians than America. And we have bigger churches than America. So come. Come see that Africa.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Right. Thank you so much, sir. And I have followed you for many years. Met you a few times. And obviously I consider your wife, my friend and mentor. And I’ve met your amazing children. And when I think about your walk with God, there are a number of things that strike me. One is how you’ve been able to almost enter the lion’s den in many countries with a fearless spirit motivated by your faith, but also by your vision and passion. And in sectors like telecoms and ICT that are highly regulated. How have you navigated that from a faith lens and in the business world?

Strive Masiyiwa: Well, you know, I’ve taught my children I have five daughters and one son. And I have told them that prayer occupies when you have fear, push it out with prayer. When you have doubt, push it out with prayer. So we should never have fear. We should be wise. But we should never have fear. So I never think in terms of the lion’s den or anything like that because that just would be wrong. I am the lion. It’s not the other way around. I have never found a place on the earth where I cannot tread. The other side should be the one that fears you. Okay, so sometimes we forget who we are. Okay. So I’ve never been in that place where I had to fear somebody. It only meant, perhaps, that I hadn’t prayed sufficiently.

Ndidi Nwuneli: I love that. I love that it pushing away fear. And in your context, you’ve clearly stared fear right in the face and then the lion. And can you just speak to specific context? You’ve written widely about your Niger experience, about your Zimbabwe experience. When the team was doing research on, you know, the the man who sued Mugabe came up as one of the taglines, but taking on ethics and integrity and taking on some of very difficult issues around corruption. How have you navigated that and what strategies and additions of prayer and courage and boldness have been utilized?

Strive Masiyiwa: Sure. Look, these are things that have gone on in the past. I think that for any young believer who happens to be an entrepreneur or for that matter, it really doesn’t matter what walk of life you’re in. Never approach it as the opportunity knocks once. The Angel of God is always at the door. All you have to do is open the door. So you should never feel that you cannot walk away, that you have to somehow compromise because you’ll never have another opportunity. That is not correct. So if the fundamental doctrine that you hold. That comes out of the Word of God and the word of God is the full body of the Bible. You see, when I study the Bible, I have no New and I have no Old Testament. I have the Bible. You see, you will never understand Genesis chapter one if you don’t understand Revelation chapter 22. It’s impossible. You will never understand the Gospels if you don’t understand the Epistles. You will not understand the Book of Joel if you don’t understand John’s baptism, you know? So these are all fundamentally intertwined. And when you engage with it, you never have to deal with fear.

Henry Kaestner: I’m so grateful that you said that. I was about to ask you if there are specific passages that helped informed the faith that you have that you’ve found most applicable. And maybe you might answer that if indeed you feel that that’s helpful. But I think that the greater lesson is the totality of Scripture, the entire narrative. And I think that a lot of us in the Faith Driven Entrepreneur world might be guilty of having 20 or 30 verses that kind of like drive us. And they seem to have direct application to what we’re doing. And they are and they are good. And there are things like the parable of the talents in the parable, the sower, etc. But you are offering up and I agree with you that any one of those taken by themselves, you’re just seeing it in black and white, that you need to see it in the totality of scripture, and then that really brings it alive. Is that indeed what you’re saying? And or with that understanding of a holistic view of God’s word? Are there different passages or lessons that you found most applicable to you in your life?

Strive Masiyiwa: No, it has to be the totality. If you’ve been a Christian for at least five years and you can read if you haven’t read for yourself the entire Bible you are missing a lot the path to maturity is to know the entire body of the Bible. And Jesus himself said that the prophets were writing about me. They were writing about him. Okay. So Moses was writing about Jesus. That is the core. And you have to study the Bible and look for him. Look for him in Moses. Look for him in Abraham. Look for him in Joshua. Understand that whole body and everything opens up. So I never say, Look, I have a particular passage of scripture. No, I love the whole body of the Bible. Faith is defined almost scientifically in the Bible. As you know, I’ve never seen anything that comes to that level of definition as faith. It is also extraordinarily simple to understand how you get faith. You don’t get faith by being a Christian. You get faith by being a Christian who meditates on God’s Word, who spends time with God’s word, who dedicates themselves to God’s word. I spend roughly 2 hours a day studying the Scriptures.

Henry Kaestner: Wow.

Strive Masiyiwa: That is what I have done for over 25 years now.

Henry Kaestner: Wow.

Henry Kaestner: How did that start? So 25 years is a long time. But has faith always been a part of your life? Is it something that’s always been part of your business life? Or did something happen where you said, this is the thing that’s going to be the most important thing for my life and help drive my business?

Strive Masiyiwa: No, I don’t I don’t look at it from the perspective of to drive my business. It is about to drive my life. You know, so when I was, I guess about 33 years old, 32, something like that. I’m now 61. I wasn’t a man who believed particularly strongly in God. I’d never voluntarily ever gone to a church, and neither did I ever read the Bible. But when I was about 32, I had my encounter with the Lord. And from that day on, I picked up the Bible and I read it for the first time. It took me about 2 to 3 weeks, something like that, to go from Genesis to Revelations using the NIV. And I never put it down during most of that time. And so, you know, that’s my personal journey. So it guides my mindset. How I approach things. And what I pursued and how I go about pursuing it.

Henry Kaestner: What guides you during your time in Scripture? 2 hours is a long, long time. Do you have a systematic way of reading through the Bible? Tell us a little bit more about your discipline on that.

Strive Masiyiwa: The way I read a book, start Genesis Chapter one and read through it, and I try to do that at least once a year. But then I have particular things that I study that I’m going through in a particular period, and I write extensive notes on everything that I read today. For instance, I was on a wonderful time. I was studying Ephesians chapter two, verse 15 in the Amplified Bible. That was it for 2 hours Ephesians chapter two, verse 15, in the Amplified. It’s a fascinating verse because it talks about the fact that Jesus annulled the law. Okay. So for you to understand why he annulled the law, it goes to the very core of the doctrine of the cross. What happened at the cross. So I would engage in something like that. I will go and look at what others have said and written about it, and I look at the different translations. I’ll even go and look at what the Greek witness said about it. Try and just engage in such a fundamental passage.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Amazing. I love it. You know, as I reflect, I’m listening to you, a lot of young people in our continent and you have a heart for young people look to you as a role model, but many of them are getting disillusioned by the church. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that, but it’s something I’m seeing in my own network, especially the successful and intellectual Africans who are questioning the role of the church in Africa. What would you say to that?

Strive Masiyiwa: Well, I would be naturally very disappointed, but we are not in the church because we want to follow a particular pastor or a particular evangelist. It is about the word of God. Okay. If you are engaged in the word of God and for some reason you become disappointed because something happens somewhere, it doesn’t change your calculus. You find the church, but it’s not about being in a church per say. It’s about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Someone says that disappointed in the church, are you saying, you’re disappointed with God. You know, that’s a that’s a pretty interesting place to be. So the key thing is to have like a calculus.

Ndidi Nwuneli: And in terms of finding role models like you who are men of God, reflect Christ and also an inspiration to the next generation. How do we create that ecosystem of apostles in the marketplace, especially in environments where the line between honesty, integrity and hard work is often blurred with a get rich quick mentality?

Strive Masiyiwa: Well, first of all, we must avoid creating terminologies that are not in the Word of God. There is no word in the Word of God which says Apostle in the marketplace. We are not called to the marketplace. We are called to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. That’s what we are called to do. See, I’m not called to be a business man. I’m not called to be an entrepreneur. Not called to be an architect. There’s only one calling, which is the great commission. Okay. That’s why the word of God tells us that preach the gospel in season and out of season, wherever you are. Okay. I could have had a great conversation with you about anything, really. We could have talked about telecommunications or cryptocurrencies or blockchain, whatever you want. But here we are. We’ve got a Christian audience. Okay. Preach the gospel. Saint Francis of Assisi said, you know, preach the gospel. But if you must use words. Okay. So sometimes I don’t use words, but.

Henry Kaestner: But you use words a lot and it’s unbelievable. So we’re all in big trouble if our identity is tied into how many people go to Faith Driven Entrepreneur groups or how many people listen to this podcast, or how many people go to a Facebook page or LinkedIn page. And lest I think that we have a Facebook post or more appropriately maybe for us or LinkedIn post it as widely read. I then look at the posts that you make and you will get 450,000 likes when you use words and walk people through a framework on how to think about scaling a business. So, you know, I go for instance, right now that’s something I’ve been reading, which is the three S’s that you have where you talk about scaling a business. Can you walk us through that a bit about how you are able to take some of the lessons that you’ve learned in business, steep them in Scripture, and then share them through constructs like this with the three part series that you have on scaling your business.

Strive Masiyiwa: Sure. So I explained to people that you don’t overspiritualize these things. These things are fairly straightforward how you scale a business. And I’ve built a multibillion dollar business that’s. It’s fairly straightforward. I teach of the three P’s. And I say, First, you got to have a product. Okay, what’s the product? And it’s got to be a product that somebody is willing to pay for. Okay you kind of run around with the product that no one’s going to pay for? Okay. You got to have some sort of revenue model around the product. Now, after you have a product, you must have people, okay? Particularly if you are the one who started who invented something. Okay. You got to have good people. That’s the second P is the people. And the third P is process. You’ve got to understand the process. Okay. Because we scale through process, understanding IT systems, understanding payroll systems, and, you know, all those are processes and then the people coming together around a product to scale. So now I noticed that I don’t have an M in there. I don’t have an M for money because it’s in people. It’s the skills you see raising money for a business. It’s just a skill. It’s one of the core skills. Okay, so I gave an example. I said, you know, when I was scaling my telecom’s business, I realized that my skills for raising money were not sufficient, even though at the time I had been an entrepreneur for nearly ten years, but I had never had to go out and raise 20, 30, 50 million at a time. So I went out to find somebody. My CFO was a Christian brother and he was a banker, and he was about to start his own business as a banker. And I said, Listen, why don’t you join me and be a co-founder with me? You understand money? You know how to negotiate with banks. I’ve never done that before. Not at this level. So I did it with people. It was the other P. It’s the P for people. So you pull in the people. You pull in the people and those people. In this case, he happened to be a Christian. It doesn’t have to be as long as you had common values. You have values of integrity and you can work with people. So you open up your business to the second P and the three are in come mesh. So there’s no even if you’re building a church. Okay. There are many great evangelists who never or pastors who don’t build big churches. All they have to think about is my three Ps. They don’t have to think about the product because the product is Jesus, and that’s the best product in the world. Okay, but if you don’t have good people, you want to know the Bible says about this. Go and see what Jethro said to Moses. The whole management philosophy of how you run a big organization was laid out by Jethro to Moses three or 4000 years ago. He said, Look, Moses, you got to learn to delegate. You got to find the right people. You’ve got to delegate. You’ve got to allow them room to operate. You’ve got to give them good policies as the leader. Okay. They’ve got to have a clear vision of where you want to go. We didn’t invent. Delegation was done by Moses and Jethro because Moses couldn’t organize himself. He had just been out there as a shepherd. But Jethro laid it out for him, says Moses. how it’s done. Otherwise you’ll tire yourself. Okay. So if you’re tired, if you’re a pastor or you’re an entrepreneur and you’re always tired at the end of the day because you don’t know how to delegate. You don’t know how to find the right people to delegate to and trust them to get the job done.

Henry Kaestner: I’m reflecting on that framework and the principle of delegation. And I’m also thinking about how you’ve been so generous, not just on our podcast, but in a way that you’ve been able to pour into a younger generation. Again, when you have that many followers on Facebook, you’re clearly reaching a younger generation to help instill some of these principles and are providing them some level of mentorship, some leadership. And I know a bit that you’ve looked to some leadership yourself over time, and I know that Andrew Young, for instance, is a mentor. Can you speak a little bit about the roles of mentors that you’ve seen in your life and how you think about that playing out in the marketplace or just in life?

Strive Masiyiwa: Well, you know, what is core in mentorship for all of us, you know, is don’t approach it like you’re in a cafeteria, you know, trying to pick fish or chicken. What shall I eat today? You know, what is important, first and foremost, is you must be anchored in the core doctrine of Christ, because people, even great people, can fall over sometime. Okay. And you’ll find yourself out and see. But you are going to have people on your journey, okay? And some people will come in almost like actors on a stage because you’ve got stage fright. Okay. And some are there for the journey of life. Andrew Young turned 90 this weekend. We celebrated him at 90. I met him when I was, I guess about. 35, 36, something like that. And he asked me to help with something which required me to stop, to spend time away from my business and travel with him. Speaking to young people across Africa for an American funded venture capital fund. Young entrepreneurs. I was one myself, but I was considered successful. So the money wasn’t for me. It was to help him get this money out there. We traveled a lot and one day, you know, I was sitting with him on a plane and I reached out into my jacket and I pulled out my little Bible because we didn’t have computers in those days. And he said, You know, that I trained in the seminary. I’m reverend Andrew Young. And he says, I haven’t had a young man pull out a Bible like this. So what are you reading? So we went through it and that became the anchor of our relationship, you know, literally for the 30 plus years. We have a chat about what’s going on in Africa. He says where are you in the word of God. And I love that. And he loves it, too. So you need people like that.

Ndidi Nwuneli: I love that story. And, you know, one of the things I think when I think of you is you give your time, your talents and treasure. And giving has been a core value of yours through the Higher Life Foundation, but through so many other initiatives. How do you inspire the next generation to give as well as you mentor them?

Strive Masiyiwa: You know, when I started my business was 1986. That was when the HIV pandemic broke out. We didn’t know what it was. I run a construction company, and every week I was burying somebody. We didn’t know what this disease was, but I noticed that being in the construction industry, a lot of my low income workers were leaving young children. And. I couldn’t just bury them. And leave the children. So I started a program. To pay for the school fees of the children. I wasn’t married when I got married a couple of years later. I told my wife about this. She was fascinated that I had a program where I funded about a hundred children. To go to school, just paid their school fees every term. And she said, you know, she wanted to get involved in it and she’d actually like to run it. I said, Fine, you know, so that’s a good deal. Should I get the money? You run it. Let’s expand it. So here we are, kind of, I don’t know, 25, 30 years later, we call it the Higher Life Foundation because God has blessed us along the way. We could expand that. We are sent to schools some 250,000 kids in that time. We have thousands of graduates at all levels. We have kids even in the United States at the moment. At any given time, we have about 50 or 60 kids in the US. It’s a great system, it’s a great education system. And particularly when we have very bright kids, we can partner with the universities. So we’ve partnered with universities like Morehouse College, Yale University and New York and so forth to send our kids there. So the greatest philanthropy is education. You know, when all else fails, you want to be a philanthropist one. You don’t believe that. You have to wait until you’re a billionaire before you’re a philanthropist. That’s a misnomer. I’m not a Christian philanthropist. You start today. And as I’ve always said, I don’t give in order to have. It is the other way around. I have in order to give and that is scripture. If you go to I believe it must be two Corinthians chapter, nine verse about nine and ten, somebody correct me. It lays out why you would have to have seed in your hands so that you are never left in a position that you can’t help. But then we narrow where we want to help. Africa is an amazing mission field to help. Everywhere we turn, we have an opportunity. What an opportunity we have. The opportunity to be able to be a vessel to help others. So if my business exists, let it exist for that. Not the other way around.

Ndidi Nwuneli: I love that. I have two other questions. I’ll just ask them quickly. One is, I once heard Elizabeth tell a story, one of your daughters, about her birthday. I think she was seven. She asked for a big birthday party unless she got to the venue. It was all children. She didn’t recognize children from motherless babies homes that have been invited to this party. And that was her early introduction into philanthropy and giving. And I just think you and this is am have a phenomenal philosophy on how you engage your children in your faith, but also in your work. Can you speak to that? So as our listeners think about raising children who love God, who love humanity, who serve God, who serve humanity. How have you been deliberate about that?

Strive Masiyiwa: Now, thank you so much. You know, my wife, when she was running the program, she used to meet all the kids every single year. We couldn’t do it now because it’s just too many kids. But she there was a time when business was very small and she used to organize these events where she’d call them history maker events, where the children were brought together at a college forum to spend a week with her. And she wanted then to reach out and to believe that they could be history makers, that one day they would be President Roosevelt. Okay. That a disability or a parent missing or anything like that does not stop you becoming what you set out to do. it was on these occasions. And she was there, and there were a group of nuns there. And they came and they said, Mrs. Masiyiwa, you know, we have a two year old here. And my wife said, but, you know, we said the kids should be a lot older. They said, well, this little boy, we brought him for you, and she just took him and brought him home. And he’s our son. And you know, some of my daughters love their brother, who’s about six foot three, you know, eats all the food here. But it was so important for them. And these are barriers we must break through all of us, because people say they don’t want to adopt. So we adopted in order to break that. No, no, you adopt. He was just we took him there. You know, that’s my son. And so our kids, we taught them, for instance, that Christmas is not about gifts for you. It’s about a gift for somebody else. So you give them each money and you say, go out and buy a gift for somebody else, and you’ll only get a gift when you have a gift to give. So they zip through their little gifts. Okay. And they look at this. Sisters and brother in the hope that, you know, you really remembered me because I remember you, you know, and these are little principles, but they’re core to how you break through to the ability to get.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Thank you so much for that. That’s so powerful. My last question is, what is God telling you about Africa and Africa’s future? What is the word that is placed in your heart for such a time like this?

Strive Masiyiwa: Well, first of all, you must always have a perspective of history. Okay. Because we can see events around us and believe that this is only us. Since the age of the church. When the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost, there have been many pandemics, sometimes wiping out half populations. So because we have seen a pandemic today, we mustn’t behave as though this is it is the end of the world. I’m sorry. It isn’t. It’s the same with war and conflict. But what is important is to be always relevant. Relevant! Okay. There are no moral equivalence. You can’t say, hey, why are you caring about Ukraine? You didn’t care about Ethiopia? No, we always. We care about everybody. I am fasting today. I just broke my fast. Okay. I am fasting over the conflict in Ethiopia and I am fasting over the invasion of Ukraine. Because this is the most powerful thing I ever do, which is to respond to an issue from a spiritual perspective. So once I positioned myself like that, I’m saying, God use me. I fasted and fasted over the pandemic. And then I took a call from the president of South Africa one day says, I’m putting you in charge of Africa’s response to this pandemic. Okay. I knew I could do it because of where you start, how you position yourself. But don’t expect that you’re going to be used because, you know, you just really don’t care about it. You’re you can’t afford to miss a meal. You know, we should be deeply concerned. So as Africa is part of the world. It is part of the world. It’s not an exotic place. It is part of the entire world community. So it’s not about having a prophetic message. I am not a prophet. I leave that to those who sit in that ministry. But we have challenges. We have to address them and we address them through the next generation as much as the present.

Ndidi Nwuneli: That was phenomenal. Positioning yourself to hear from God to the use of God. Thank you. Thank you for inspiring us today. Thank you for your work. Thank you for your faith. And thank you for being a shining light and a hope for my generation. Henry, do you want to close us out?

Henry Kaestner: Strive I’m just very grateful. I think that one of the things that Ndidi and I had wanted to do through this podcast, which bridges some number of folks from the West who have followed our other programs in the past is to give them a re-imagined vision of the opportunities in Africa. And we have a sense of that. You know, clearly you’ve been able to show through your leadership about thriving business, but you’ve left us with something far greater, which is just the spiritual underpinnings of an economy and a culture that’s focused on God. And I’m just grateful for the fact that you spend time with us. You’ve got lots and lots of folks that look to you for inspiration, encouragement, and I’m grateful for you to being able to do that with our very small audience. And our hope is that God will use that. Thank you for having blessed me and all of us.

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John Cortines had a plan to become a millionaire by age 30 and retire by age 40. He had all the spreadsheets and the “Big Oil” job to prove it. But while pursuing his MBA at Harvard Business School, John took the class “God and Money,” where he ended up writing a term paper that became a book—and it changed his life forever. He began studying God’s Word to answer the question “How much do we need to give?” John ended his exploration with the question flipped to “How much do we really need to keep?” In this Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast episode, we talk to John about the book that he co-authored, entitled, ‘God and Money: How We Discovered True Riches at Harvard Business School.’ Listen in as John shares practical tools for how Christ-following business leaders can give biblically and responsibly. 

Episode Transcript

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast and indeed welcome back. Today we’ve got a special guest that John and I have on the program, John Cortines. John has written a couple of books now, the one that you may already know about. If you’re listening to Faith Driven Investor podcast, it’s preaching to the choir here a little bit. God and Money. How he discovered true riches at Harvard Business School is a formative work in the space of an ambitious marketplace investor that’s wrestling with Where does God have them? As we before we get back and we get to the regularly scheduled program here, I wanted to set this up because the work that John has done and through the organization, he’s spent a tremendous amount of time with generous giving. And then the Maclellan Foundation has had such an impact in my life. At age 28, I came to faith. It changed everything. I had a career on Wall Street. I pursued all the things that an investor might pursue on Wall Street that does not yet know God. And then at age 38, as bandwidth was becoming more successful, I met Daryl Heald at the Maclellan Foundation and the co-founder of Generous Giving, the organization that John has spent a lot of time working with. And he asked me this simple question and I alluded to this a little bit in the outset when we talked about may we do this out of gratitude, of gratitude for the gift given us? Daryl asked me, Henry, why do you give? And I had no frame to think about the answer there. I probably mumbled through something theologically […]. I think at the time Kimberley and I were probably giving away 20% because God had really blessed bandwith and we thought we should do it. I may have even answered something like, I don’t know, I want to pay it forward. I hope it wasn’t something as corny as that, but it might have been. But through the next six months and God’s Word, God and Jesus and the and the teachings of the Bible helped me to see that so much of the Bible has something to do with money. In fact, it felt that every single one of those six months, every single one of the days in the six months, had something to do with money. And it changed my completely changed my walk with God. I credit Daryl and that time in Scripture with my born again again moment, I credit the whole season one in going from black and white Christianity to Technicolor. And John’s here to talk about that. John, thank you very much for being with us.

John Cortines: Thanks so much for having me on, Henry. It’s great to see you and John as well.

Henry Kaestner: So as we get started, give us a foundation. And I think this is really important and that is we have some certain assumptions that we make as a foundation in thinking about how we invest, investing for the glory of God. How do we think about that across different asset classes, stocks, bonds, real estate? We’ve recently had some folks in talking about investing in cinema and in culture, but there’s this underlying premise and belief that we as Christ followers, have a different way that we might think about money, but we really haven’t gotten into that that much on the podcast. So there’s the formative experience that each of us has that we can go through that then leads us to how do we invest our assets for the glory of God? John, speak to us a bit about your work. As we do with every guest, we like to start off with an autobiographical flyover. So do that, but then bring us right up to the work that you’re doing right now and help us to understand how you came, to understand how you might answer this question. They’re all asking, like, why do we give? Why do we invest?

John Cortines: Absolutely. Thanks, Henry. Well, you know, the quick flyover would be I grew up in North Dallas, grew up in a wonderful Christian home, so thankful for my parents. And I’m going to focus on the money element of this because this was transformative. I love how you called it Born Again Again. And I really point to that in my own journey. So I love Jesus from an early age, wanted to follow him with my whole life. And I also had imbibed this, you know, Christian money formula, which is something like work really hard, live frugally, save a lot, don’t have debt, and by the way, give 10%. Like there’s this obedience thing. And I thought, Hey, that’s cool. And I really started loving accumulating money, starting with mowing lawns in high school, socked away $10,000. I went to engineering school and had scholarships, and before I ever stepped foot into my first full time job, I had $100,000, you know, internships and scholarships and all of this. And so my plan was to be a millionaire by age 30 or retire by age 40. And I had all the spreadsheets to prove it. And giving for me was actually that annoying cell in my spreadsheets that I could toggle lower and I’d be able to retire sooner. But I knew that I had to keep a certain level of giving to be an obedient Christian. And I was kind of the way I thought about it. I even enjoyed some of the giving I was doing, but I just it wasn’t a source of life for me. And so fast forward in my journey, I was working in Big Oil. I wanted to pursue a career track with them and I ended up at Harvard Business School after having launched my career with Chevron, and I was going to go back as an expat after my MBA. And that’s a very lucrative opportunity for those who know about, you know, that kind of a deal. So very, very excited about that. My classmate and I, who are in the business school, found a class at the divinity school called God and Money, and it just piqued our interest. We said, this is so cool, you know, a theology class on money and God and we love God and we love money. So how can we not take this class? And long story short, the next few months we went Genesis to Revelation. We were digging into Scripture and we were meeting all kinds of extremely generous Christians who had been impacted and were living their lives in radical ways, ways that we’d never heard about, even growing up in the church in terms of the ambition and percentages and commas and zeros in their giving. And we thought, this is unbelievable. The most striking thing was that it wasn’t an act of obedience. It was an act of joy and gratitude, as you were just alluding to. And so that led us to write a term paper that became the book, God and money and really changed our lives forever. And so for the last seven years I’ve been working post MBA was called by God out of Big Oil. I let Chevron know, hey, I’m going to work for a small nonprofit in Florida called Generous Giving. And they didn’t even try to talk me out of it. I think they thought I’d lost my mind. You know, this guy’s a lost cause. So 60 to 70% lower pay than what I had thought I was going to be going into. But it’s been this rich adventure with the Lord and so on. My coauthor, Greg and I have had both sides of the adventure. He’s been in the corporate world and has been living and giving in a radical way. And now I’ve had the privilege of being on the ministry side of this and meeting hundreds, if not thousands of givers and talking to people about their journeys and getting to spread the joy, the message that this is a source of joy and intimacy with Christ rather than the way I used to view it. Right. Just obedience.

Henry Kaestner: The highest education I ever had was the University of Delaware. Some people call it the University of South Jersey. We did not have a class on God and money. It comes as a bit of a surprise to me that HBS had a class called God and Money, but maybe it shouldn’t have, because I know that much of John’s formation is through some really great Christ following men also at Harvard Business School. John, did you take the God and Money class?

John Coleman: Well, to be clear, I think it was at the divinity school, right, John? So I actually was aware of it while I was there. But I would say, you know, HBS was a much better Christian community than I had anticipated. And John, I don’t know if you had this experience, but there was a very active Christian fellowship on campus with small groups in the different sections. And so I found that my faith was actually able to grow during that time in groups with others. And John, I don’t know if you experienced the same thing, but it sounds like you you did, at least to some extent. What was that like for you?

John Cortines: Yeah, I’m really thankful for the Christian Fellowship. It’s such an awesome community, you know, it’s a small minority, but it’s very vibrant. And yeah, it was a Tuesday morning men’s Bible study that formed actually what has become lifelong community. So there’s a a text chain and some annual get togethers in this group that I’m a part of from my time there. And these guys have been a real catalyst for spiritual growth in my journey. So I really praise God for that.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. Now, you did make a very different decision than most HBS students do or HBS graduates do. First, I’d love to hear just what the reactions were when you came to this decision. First, when you gain this insight about giving and then came to the decision to enter the nonprofit world first, how did that conversation go with your wife? I know you were probably married at the time. And then secondly, how did your classmates react?

John Cortines: Sure You know, I want to answer on a personal level first, because God did this foundational work in my life and honestly, my coauthor, Greg’s life for both of us, where we talk about this and God and money, it flipped the question we were asking. We kind of came into this big project of studying God’s word to ask, how much do we need to give? Is that a 10% tithe? Is that something different? Is there another way to think about it? And we left that exploration asking how much do we really need to keep it just flipped it for us and God has abundantly provided for us. We had these educations, these careers, these salaries. And so to the extent we can define what enough looks like and live, you know, not this poverty lifestyle, but just live a nice life and be blessed and put a guardrail in place. The upside and the financial upside of our career gets allocated to God’s kingdom in a different way. So there’s this really freeing mindset shift. And then when the call to go into nonprofit arrived for me and for my wife, who is, I would say, more sensitive to the Lord and more able to make those pivots than I am. We had already reframed our lifestyle expectations around a finish line, so then it was like, okay, we may not have that upside we were thinking where we can give six figures every year, but we already recalibrated our lifestyle. And so it actually becomes more possible to move into the nonprofit sector and live on those kinds of salaries. That’s the personal side to it. And then how did people react? You know, certainly surprise. I mean, that’s the big thing, because you just I was surprised. Right. Is like I didn’t go to grad school to take on student loans to then go earn less money and work in a nonprofit that it just it’s an upside down formula. So all I can say is that God made his calling very clear. And that’s what we told people like, you know, I don’t know what your faith position is, but this is a call from God situation and all we can do is answer it.

John Coleman: That’s awesome and encouraging. Talk to us. I mean, if you don’t mind. For listeners who are unfamiliar with the book, talk to us about the thesis of the book and what you offer to people who are trying to consider the role that money plays in their life in God and Money. The book.

John Cortines: Sure. So the book grew out of our term paper. So those who have done business school will appreciate this. You know, we don’t really write papers. John, I don’t know if it was harder when you were there a few years before me, but not a lot of paper writing going on. And so then we when we were in the divinity school, the professor says, Hey, you have to write a 15 pages paper to conclude the semester. And we said, Wow. So we said, Can we write it together? And he said, Sure, just make it 30 pages. So we’re like, Oh, shoot. So we started a research paper. Honestly, we said, I want to investigate Scripture and interview experienced Christian givers. And try to build a framework around how do we think about money and giving and the Christian life. So that’s really the foundation of the project. And so it starts, you know, the whole first chapter is just a fly over Genesis to Revelation. What does it say about money? And it was funny, even the publisher saying, you know, people aren’t going to hang with you for a chapter one that’s just a Bible flyover. And you say, well, we got to anchor it on that. And what we do throughout the course of the book is try and build a framework for a higher income or a more financially successful business leader in the 21st century who’s wrestling with what do I do with this money that God has provided and how do I be faithful? And so we propose down to numbers and frameworks around what that looks like.

Henry Kaestner: So John, I want to get into something right off the bat that I think is really applicable to our audience. I think that some number of folks are coming to understand that actually there’s a great opportunity to understand that God owns it all and we can worship by giving to God what is already His, participate in the work that He’s doing. And there’s been a movement of biblical generosity that I think is really picking up steam in the church, which is to be celebrated. It’s not as clear that the concept of investing according to faith through this knowledge that God is at all is at the same level yet. I think it’s building toward that. But as you come at things from the foundational level, which I think is the most important level about God owning it all, do you have any reflections on how we might think about our investment portfolio in light of God and money?

John Cortines: Thanks, Henry. You know, one of the most compelling things I heard a few years ago, and I know these concepts are familiar for the listeners of this show and the work that you all are doing and advocating for. So I just I’m really thankful for your partnership in this space biblically to advocate for this perspective. But the thing that changed my perspective on this was when someone said, you know, if you think about all the giving that someone will ever do or all the giving that even Christians will ever do, in aggregate, it’s a small slice of the overall wealth. And if you think about the investment portfolios, the size is just radically, radically different. And, you know, we could even say in round numbers, you know, the giving is in, I don’t know, tens of billions probably. But the investment portfolio is in the multiple, multiple trillions, even the tens of trillions. And so how we allocate our giving dollars and the fact that we do give radically, generously as believers, that’s a that’s a mandate. That’s a call. That’s an invitation. But I think you’re right. There’s less of an awareness to say, hey, what does it look like to invest according to these principles? The one thing I’ll say and I love your reaction to this, too, as an expert here, we see this real push around ESG in the secular world. And depending on when people are listening to this podcast, you know, the FCC has even just come out and said they’re building frameworks around this for disclosures of publicly traded companies around ESG. And that’s coming from our, you know, the postmodern, confused ethical soup that we’re all swimming in as a broad society. So I think there’s a massive opportunity for believers to be out in front of that, which we honestly haven’t been, but to really articulate so many incredible faith driven business leaders who are running their companies by these principles, but probably haven’t written that down in a thoughtful way or publicly disclosed it necessarily. So I would love to see us be more forward and articulate in saying, here’s how we’re running our companies, here’s how we’re investing our money. Not necessarily in this same exact definition of ESG that the secular culture may create, but in a biblically anchored way, some of which is going to overlap and some of which is going to look a little bit different. I’d love to hear y’all’s reactions to that.

John Coleman: Yeah, John, I think this is such an important topic. You know, what’s ironic is that Christians and other believers, whether they be Muslims or Jews for a thousand years, have been at the forefront of this issue. You know, some of the earliest codes about how you should invest, what you should invest in, what you shouldn’t invest in, actually came out of the great monotheistic religions in particular. And yet if you look at the modern ESG movement, as you described, it’s largely been a mainstream or secular phenomenon for the last 20 or 30 years. And I think we had gotten to the space for many Christians you mentioned earlier had divided their life in two and said, I’m going to make money and then I’m going to give, which was kind of a false dichotomy. And I think that many business leaders and investors had also said the same thing that, you know, the corporation’s only duty is to its shareholders and the investors only duty is to make a profit or to maximize return and had segregated those two areas, living their values in one area and giving, but not really trying to impose those on the way in which they ran companies or gave. In the meantime, I think the mainstream world led by a lot of large international institutions. Decided that it had to enforce its values or they had to live their values through their investing. And so they started to require companies to meet certain criteria on climate or on governance, etc. And that’s grown now. I won’t go off on too much of a tangent here and to something like a $35-40 trillion segment of investment management is ESG now. And yet if you look at Faith Aligned Investment Management, it’s really between $50 and $100 billion right now. It’s a tiny sliver of the market. And so what we encourage people to do I think is to not draw a false dichotomy in their lives that if they truly believe in the values of their faith and how those can help people flourish, and how loving God and loving your neighbor can actually transform the world, that they try and exhibit those through their investing strategies and even through the ways that they lead companies, not necessarily as Christian companies, quote unquote, but really embracing the values of their faith and beginning to live those out in every sphere of their lives. And we kind of have a catch phrase for that, which is all investing is impact investing. It’s this idea that impact investing isn’t 2% of what you do when you’re feeling generous. It’s really 100% of your portfolio because that whole portfolio is having an impact. The question is whether you’re going to control that impact, whether you’re going to wield the influence that you have through that portfolio or yield it to others who have their own agenda to pursue. And so I’m seeing and Henry, I think you’d agree with this. I’m seeing a lot more people and institutions waking up to that. But it’s interesting to see how the faith aligned or Christian world actually fell behind after starting this whole movement, you know, hundreds of years ago and is only now waking up to what the mainstream world has been living for a couple of decades.

John Cortines: Yeah, and I so appreciate that. And the historical context is fascinating as I reflect on my own personal journey. You know, I’m very analytical and I anticipated building this nest egg. Hey, retire by 40. So what does that look like? And I kind of cut my teeth in the bobble head world, if that’s a familiar term. You know, the founder of Vanguard, and it’s this idea of index and forget about it and you’ll be okay. And even the idea that you’ll probably be a head of active investments anyways, net of fees, and even if you’re not, you haven’t spent any time thinking about it so you can sleep easy at night. You know, I think there are many believers who would fall into that camp. And so the argument needs to be, you know, regardless of what you think about what the return, you know, returns one way or the other. I love what you said, John. All investing is impact investing. So when you buy an index, you’re buying a lot of stuff you probably don’t want to buy. And so to set it and forget about it and just collect your returns for 30 or 40 years, I think we can start setting that aside in light of a broader picture of the kingdom and the impact that those funds are having.

Henry Kaestner: So, John, we do a segment here toward the end of every podcast called Lightning Round, and we’re not there yet. But I just want to prepare you just so you can start getting ready. We can up the tempo a little bit, but I want you to spend as long as you need to answer this question, because I think it’s really, really formative. We know from Scripture that God loves a cheerful giver not to give out of reluctance or compulsion. And I think that it’s fair for us to take that and extend it towards how we think about faith driven investing as well. He wants to have a joyful investor, one that doesn’t feel like they have to go ahead and invest in this fund or that fund, because otherwise they’re going to be beaten with many blows. Right. How is it that you are able to find joy in giving and joy in investing? And what are some of the things that you’ve seen others employ as well?

John Cortines: Yeah, thanks for that question, Henry. I would say that here’s the biggest thing about how to become a joyful and cheerful giver, and we can apply this to investing as well. You know, why do we give let me start from that. We start from the character of God. As Christians, we believe that God is the giver. He gave his only son. We have eternal life. We’ve received so much. And if we’re made in the image of God, we are made to be givers. And so if we start from the character of God and we recognize the priceless gift of the Gospel, then we move into a posture of gratitude. And so that is actually my answer of how do we maintain joy in our giving and in our overall stewardship of money is to wake up every day with a posture of gratitude for what we get to do and for what God has blessed us with. And I would argue we talk about this a little bit in the book. True Riches, that the opposite of gratitude when it comes to stewardship, the opposite of gratitude is pride. And those two words aren’t often put together in contrast to one another. But I believe financially it’s true, if you think about King Nebuchadnezzar in the Old Testament is the ultimate example of financial pride. He says, look at this, Babylon, the great city that I’ve built to display my power and my glory. And he’s struck down. You know, he’s a negative example for us spiritually. But if we start from that posture of gratitude and receiving all that we have. As a gift from God, it becomes so much easier to have open hands and to give or to have the freedom to do our very best in our investments. But know that we’re going to miss some. We’re not going to be perfect. We’re not going to pick the perfect fund, but we’re living in the freedom of gratitude for what God has given us. So that’d be my one tip on living with joy in our financial gifts and investments.

John Coleman: That’s awesome, John. What a great testimony. I want to pivot to some of your work at Maclellan here shortly, but before we jump off of the topic of God and money and how you started to investigate this, I was really fascinated that you went Genesis to Revelation through the Bible and then part of your term paper was studying people who were good at this or were living this out. I was wondering if you could make it real for us. Who are, you know, one or two or three people that inspired you on this front in the Bible? And then who are a couple of folks that really inspired you out in the world today on this topic of God and money and living generously?

John Cortines: Absolutely. You know, one thing I’ll highlight in scripture is this awesome contrast. Luke is the most financially oriented gospel writer. So the gospel of Luke has all these extra money stories we don’t get in the other gospels. And there’s a contrast between the rich young ruler who actually does appear in multiple gospels, and Zacchaeus who actually appears in the we don’t need to get all into biblical theology and interpretation here, but Zacchaeus appears at the apex of the journey into Jerusalem that Jesus is on. It’s a key story for Luke in writing his gospel and the rich young ruler comes to Jesus, has a bunch of money, can’t get over the hump of realizing that He’s called to give in a radical way. And he walks away, sad, and Zacchaeus is met with the grace of Jesus Christ and in his joy, he gives away half of his assets and beyond to do restitution for where he’s wronged people. And Jesus says today salvation has come to this house, you know, an acknowledgment of what Zacchaeus has done. So just kind of looking at that contrast like, man, I want to be a Zacchaeus, not a rich young ruler who has the money but walks away from God because of that. Yeah. Making it real in terms of some people. I’ll give one example. I’m a saver. I know many people listening that will have that saver mentality as well. And I met this guy. We spoke over the phone. He’s a hedge fund guy and shared quite openly, you know, hey I am blessed with like a $5 million plus kind of an income in the last few years. And and he said, but I don’t save money. And it was kind of on the phone. It’s like, come again, you know, tell me what that looks like. And he said, Well, you know, we have our house. Our house is paid off. We’ve got some money set aside for college, for the kids. I have really good life insurance and disability insurance. So, you know, my family’s covered. But, you know, as far as retirement, I’m not in a hurry. I’m in my forties, you know, why would I save up a big retirement nest egg? And so we make all this money. We live a decent lifestyle, and then we flush the rest. We give it to God’s kingdom every year. He said, I think I need maybe 3 million bucks to retire on, but I’m on a glide path to save that. I’m not in a hurry. And we just give whatever we make beyond what we live on, we give away. And I just was so floored. I think I probably hung up the phone and sat down on the floor of my living room, you know, just like I can’t believe what I’m hearing, because if I was him, you know, I’ve saved for six months and then call it quits. And I think just kind of hearing that kind of ambitious generosity was very transformative in my own journey.

John Coleman: And I’ll tell you, one of the most encouraging things for me, entering the faith driven investing world about a year ago was just the extraordinary number of examples of that, you know, whether it be people like Alan Barnhart or Casey Crawford or others who are so generous with their financial resources and live so radically differently. I wanted to pivot here quickly, John, to your work today. So you’ve joined the Maclellan Foundation in a role related to giving. Tell us a little bit more about Maclellan and about what you’re doing there.

John Cortines: Absolutely. Well, you know, it’s been such an honor to be a part of the Maclellan Foundation, who is the founder of Generous Giving, where I worked for five years, and I’ve been directly on their team for two years now, and the foundations existed for over 75 years. And so the family and this foundation has been passionate advocates for this perspective on biblical generosity for literally longer than I’ve been alive on this earth. And so I’m so grateful to benefit from that. And there was this key revelation for them that giving is not just a means to spiritual ends. You know, it’s not that we give in order to see people discipled and baptized and all these things. But giving actually is spiritual fruit in the life of a Christian believer. It is a component of our discipleship journey with the Lord. And in recognition of that, they started this organization generous giving that shares that message. Many people will have heard of a journey of generosity, retreat, or their celebration of generosity conference, which are these no pressure environments where people who have, you know, more resources than the average person. Come together with peers and explore the kind of conversation we’re having today and hear stories like we’re talking about today and just get fired up as givers and in that journey. And so through that, it was really impactful on my journey when I was kind of wrestling through these topics, watching some of their videos online and meeting people who got their start at these conferences. So yeah, it’s been a great joy to be a part of it. And I’ll just say that for anyone who’s thinking about stepping into those kind of environments, the beauty of it is the neutrality. It’s just this is not a fundraiser. This is not a conversation with a certain end in mind. This is a non prescriptive but prophetic environment to talk with people and say, Hey, what is God’s calling on my life as a giver given that He’s entrusted these resources to me? And how do I make the most of the opportunity I have?

Henry Kaestner: All right. That’s beautiful. I want to affirm that. I also want to encourage people that might be listening to this is that while traditionally generous giving and the work of Maclellan foundation have tended to help people who are struggling and trying to figure out how do they give well? It’s the biblical message of generosity is equally applicable for a college sophomore, somebody who’s in India. I remember one of the things that really brought me into the work that you all do out of Maclellan was Daryl going over to India and spending time with the Dalits, the Untouchables, and preaching to them about how rich they were. And that translator like, Dude you know who you’re talking to? And Daryl was like, No, no, just translate like that. And of course, he is preaching a second Corinthians 8:9 and just, you know, to that God who was rich, became poor so that we are poor and might become rich. And so they could understand the new view of riches through the biblical message of generosity. And there’s a beauty in there that’s really about heart transformation. And I think that that has so much overlap with Faith Driven Investor, because Faith Driven Investing at one level is yes, absolutely. How do we steward investment capital across? Yes, it could be patient concession return, but absolutely market based return as well. How do we think about doing that? Well, how do we respond into that? And I hope that listeners will get a good sense for that. But ultimately, all of this is about bringing us back to God and knowing God and how much He loves us. So much. So anybody who’s struggling with money at all, the spirit of Mammon, if you will being able to understand that biblical message of generosity that you all have espoused for so long, sets us free regardless of our financial background. And I think that that’s an important thing to mention. Okay, we are here at the end of our time together. Just so you know, this is how this is going to end. The question you’re going to get at the end. You are not going to get the questions early on because it takes away the fun of it. But the question you’re going to get at the end is what is God speaking to you about through his word? And maybe it’s today, maybe it’s over the course of last week, maybe sort of last month. That’s what we can end with. That’s when you know this is all going to be over. But John and I have a couple of Rapidfire questions we’re going to throw at you first. Okay. You ready?

John Cortines: I’m ready.

Henry Kaestner: Alright good Okay. Number one, we see the exercise equipment in the background. I also know you enough to know that you’re really fit. What’s your favorite thing to do to stay in shape?

John Cortines: It is lazy exercise, which I would say is fasting.

Henry Kaestner: I was not expecting that

John Cortines: Trick answer Once a week, 24 hour fast spiritual and physical benefits. So that’s my lazy exercise.

Henry Kaestner: Wow. Okay, so that’s the second podcast cast that we’ve had on today that’s talked about how important fasting is in their spiritual life. And so you’re not spending time on that exercise equipment. That’s for somebody else behind you. You do fasting.

John Cortines: It’s theoretically for me, but I’d be ashamed to tell you how often it’s used.

Henry Kaestner: Theoretically. Okay. All right. Number two, we’re talking about the biblical message of generosity so I am going to put you on a spot here and maybe you shouldn’t have a favorite in this. And no, I’m not asking you about your kids. I’m asking you about a charity, a ministry that you and your wife have given to over time, that there’s just something about them that’s really inspired you.

John Cortines: Oh, man, I have developed this beautiful relationship over the years with Compassion International. Everything they do is about Christ and children and working through the local church. Those are their three C’s and they are so I’ve known their executive leadership and I’ve talked to their volunteers through translators in the field, and they all speak the same language, so gospel centered. So I can’t say enough about them. They’ve been our number one allocation as a family.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. We love compassion in our house, too. One of the great things you can do if you have kids we found is that for each of the kids, we have a kid overseas who’s about their age that they’re a pen pal with now that we’re supporting. And it’s an easy way for any family to get into supporting others overseas. I have a slightly different question for you all. Preface this by saying, you know, John has written two books, God and Money and True Riches. Everyone should pick those up, I think. And we can be certain that any proceeds from those are going to good used, as you’ve heard today. So buy extra copies for your friends. But John, what are you reading right now or what have you read? Recently that you think would be helpful to people investigating these topics?

John Cortines: You know, I’ll give a very unique answer, something people haven’t heard of, but especially if somebody has read three or four books I’m giving and they’re kind of like, Hey, I wonder what’s out there. There is a guy named Saint Basil the Great, and he preached some sermons on money and giving 1600 years ago. He’s one of the church fathers. And so you can find a translation of several of his sermons that’s called On Social Justice by Basil the Great. Man. It is good stuff. He’s a little bit in-your-face. The church fathers were a little bit in-your-face. So if you can get past his aggressive style, it is convicting and inspiring sermons on money and generosity. So in centuries past, the message was the same as it is today.

John Coleman: It’s awesome. So maybe we’ll close it out. John, what do you think is God’s call in your life right now and what are you learning from him?

John Cortines: You know, it’s interesting that there’s this theme I found in the community of biblically generous people that God has allowed me to be a part of. Whereas you start giving your money away, you start giving your time and your life away. And then very often the call of God emerges to adopt or foster. It kind of comes inside the home. So Isaiah 58, beautiful passage. Bring the homeless poor into your house. The glory of the Lord will be your rear guard. And God has really spoken that into me in my wife’s life over the last few years. And so we have foster twins who we received from the NICU 5 pounds each and they’ve been with us since then. They’re now two years old and I’ll be in court tomorrow on their case. And we’re praying for an adoption this year. So I would just say that there’s all this professional stuff and flying around and conferences and that’s a great joy. But but the conviction and the challenge and the fellowship with Jesus and trying to live this out every day at home and in my wife, who’s a hero, doing that even more intensely than I am day in and day out. That’s been the real area of growth for us lately.

Henry Kaestner: That’s super motivating, very encouraging. John, I’m grateful for our friendship, our partnership in the movement and just the way that you challenge us all, challenged our listeners. So listeners, thank you for having dialed in. Thank you for the support and encouragement we’re getting from emails and suggestions on people we might have on the podcast. Yes, as you might imagine, if you think this might be a podcast that might be an inspiration or encouragement to others, please pass it along. We have a new Faith Driven Investor group study that we’ve rolled out that you might really enjoy. It’s six weeks study. You get together with your peers to talk about how you can process what God is saying about investing. It’s some great lessons from Tim Keller, Andy Crouch, Mark Sheard, Finny Kuruvilla, a whole bunch of others. It’s just really super motivating, encouraging. I think you enjoy that. Thank you for having tuned in and may God bless you as you endeavor to understand how to invest capital for God’s glory. Until next time.

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Intel CEO, Pat Gelsinger, has been a leader in the Faith and Work movement for decades. 

In this interview from the 2022 Faith Driven Investor Conference, Pat talks about some of the most important lessons he’s learned as he’s sought to bring his whole self into the workplace over the years. 

He also gives insight into how leaders can balance their work and family life, empower their communities, and love their employees, partners, and coworkers who come to work with different faith backgrounds. Let’s listen in. 

Episode Transcript

Henry Kaestner: Welcome, Faith driven entrepreneurs. It is an incredible honor to be here with Pat Gelsinger, CEO of Intel. And when we think his faith driven entrepreneurs about what it looks like to be a faith driven leader. A lot of us think, well, gosh, we can talk about our faith or be informed by our faith if maybe we’re running a small company in maybe the Bible Belt or something like that. But other than that, we just really have to buy into a secular spiritual divide and maybe leave our faith at home and maybe just look at it on weekends in a church. If there is a place in America, at least that people think is not very faith friendly, a lot of people think Silicon Valley or they might think of big, publicly traded company. But we’ve got a guy here who is the CEO of one of the very biggest publicly traded companies in the Bay Area who’s very serious about his faith. So, Pat, what an honor and privilege and a blessing for you to share some time with us. Thank you.

Pat Gelsinger: Hey, thanks, Henry. Appreciate what you do for the entrepreneurs. And a real pleasure to spend some time chatting today.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you. Thank you. So maybe we just start off with that, which is what does it look like to be driven by your faith and be a leader of a really big company?

Pat Gelsinger: Well, you know, it’s been a journey for me since early on. And in fact, maybe a little bit of the story of how I got here is funny, where I was very young in my faith. You know, I was working at Intel a few months and, you know, I felt compelled by God to go into ministry. And I’m a very young Christian and I’m, you know, at Intel, maybe eight months at this point, you know, had just become a Christian, maybe five, four months earlier. And God says, go into full time ministry. And I started arguing with God. I said, I don’t want to be a minister. I don’t want to be one of those pastor folks. I love this technology stuff while I’m doing it. You know, I’m wrestling with God for a while and okay, God, I give up, right? If this happens, I’ll go into full time ministry. And the answer from God was The workplace is your ministry. And Colossians three, 23 and 24 became my life verse work heartily. As for the Lord and not them, not from men. Knowing that you receive the reward of the inheritance, it is the Lord Christ whom you serve. And that’s always been saying, okay, you know, I’m in the workplace, but I’m a full time Christian, full time minister, you visible for my faith in those roles. And boy, that’s been the journey of almost 40 years now as a Christian, as a leader in the workplace. And to me it’s been occasionally challenging but extraordinarily rewarding, knowing that, yeah, I work for Intel no. I work for the Lord Jesus Christ on a daily basis.

Henry Kaestner: So how does that work out? A lot of people talk about Saint Francis of Assisi, and that’s the way to kind of inform what we do. And, you know, just preach the gospel, always use words when necessary. Of course, what’s missing in that is that he is also one of the most famous open air pastors of all time. Right. But you’ve navigated through deed and excellence and also sharing your faith. This is not the first time you’ve talked about your faith in front of a public audience. How do you navigate that tension?

Pat Gelsinger: And, you know, in many ways, I’ll say, you know, there’s a couple of key rules that I’ve learned over time to navigate that. Well, you know, one is I’d say, you know, first the thesis behind how you bring your faith into the workplace. And today there’s a lot of discussion on diversity and inclusion. And it turns out that for humanity, over 70% of all humans on the earth claim that faith is an or the most important thing in their lives. So if we’re going to talk about diversity and inclusion, but we’re not going to allow faith in the workplace, I’m telling 70% of humanity. No, the most important thing that you can’t come into the workplace. So, of course, diversity and inclusion means that faith needs to come into the workplace, it needs to be visible. Otherwise, I’m telling you, keep that at home. But other aspects of inclusion you’re able to bring into the workplace, you know, that doesn’t work, right? You know, diversity and inclusion is all about bringing your whole self into the workplace, your ethnic self, you know, your sexual orientation, your social and your faith. So I say I’m proud of bringing my faith into the workplace. And in fact, if I, as the CEO who’s the chief culture officer of Intel, can’t demonstrate my diversity in the workplace, then how can anybody? So, in fact, I need to be representing my faith, what’s most important to me or other aspects of my personality in the workplace. But then the second piece of it is, is I also then, as a Christian CEO, need to make it okay for everybody else to bring their faith perspectives into the workplace. And, oh, you’re a Sikh. Tell me about being a Sikh. Oh, what’s Ramadan? Yo, let’s go. Hey, you know, I just was talking to my board of directors was celebrating Ramadan. I said, next year, I’m going to celebrate it with you and I’m going to do the fasting with you next year as well. I want to know about your faith and your perspectives and so on. And for that, you know, people might say, well, you’re proselytizing if you talk about your faith. No, I’m bringing my whole self into the workplace. And I must make it okay for all other faith perspectives, including no faith. I hear someone say, you know, I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in any faith. Well, great, that’s your worldview. And I need to make that okay too when they’re part of my team, part of the workplace that we’re together [……].

Henry Kaestner: So presumably when you encourage that and allow someone to bring their whole selves to work, people feel more welcome and they stick around more. They do more excellent work and and probably even flow through to the bottom line.

Pat Gelsinger: Yeah. And in fact, you know, there’s lots of studies now that have shown that a more diverse, inclusive workspace brings better outcomes. You know, people, hey, if I’m able to, you know, bring my whole self into the workplace, I feel honored in my faith traditions or, you know, my cultural and ethnic predecent. Then I’m able to participate more effectively in work discussions as well. And I can bring those perspectives where, you know, I mean, the famous story of the first version of the Apple Watch, right, where it didn’t detect the women’s period because there was nobody on the design team who was a female. Oh, right. It’s sort of like you immediately just saw, hey, not having a gender diversity was a total design flaw in the product. Well, this is every aspect of bringing yourself into the workplace. And how will this product or this decision be seen by different ethnic groups, different social groups, different genders, etc.? And of course, as we said, faith has one of those.

Henry Kaestner: So that’s fascinating to me. I have a friend of mine named Chris Seipel, who is a big proponent for religious freedom, and he has a phrase that I really like, which is truth stands out in the marketplace of ideas, and that as faith driven leaders, we should welcome that and include that and encourage people to bring their whole selves work. So I think that’s really cool. And one of the things that will probably be a surprise to most of our listeners and most of our watchers is that the concept of faith driven employee resource groups really started out here right at Apple and then Facebook and then Google.

Pat Gelsinger: and in Intel.

Henry Kaestner: And of course at Intel. Of course at Intel. But that would be a surprise to a lot of folks to think that maybe they’re in Chicago right now are thinking, well, I don’t really know. I could yeah, maybe if I’m in Nashville, I could but can’t do it in Chicago actually out here that’s now accepted business. Right.

Pat Gelsinger: And we have over 30 different employee resource groups now with the company. And one of the earliest ones was the Intel Christian Bible Network that I helped to start, you know, many, many years ago.

Henry Kaestner: How long ago is that? So that’s a long time.

Pat Gelsinger: Over 30 years ago when we first did that. And in fact, you know, the first outline for the juggling act book was in preparation for my first speaking at the first Intel Christian Bible Network. You were talking about having a lunch time brown bag kind of event where people would show up and people sit Pat, Pat. You know, as a leader inside of the company, we really want you to, you know, be that Christian face as we kick off the Intel Christian Bible Network. And I said, Well, what should I talk about? Right. I don’t know. You know, maybe, you know, how do you make faith work and your family fit together? Oh, okay. And that became the outline for the book. And I’ve given that talk, of course, you know, now probably a thousand plus times or.

Henry Kaestner: 20 years ago, maybe, you.

Pat Gelsinger: Know, the first version of the book was over 20 years ago. The second version of the book was, I think nine years ago now. Right. The juggling act. And it was really born out of okay, I got to come up with some talk for our kickoff of the Intel Christian Bible Network. And now that whole theme of […] is really flourished inside of Intel. And we have, you know, different faith groups, different sexual orientation groups, different ethnic groups. You’re also, you know, different classes, you know, a black leadership group. We have a, you know, a veterans group as well for those coming out of the military into the workforce, you know, and of course, across some of the other regions of the world, you know, different slices that are important for them. And in fact, last year, we were recognized by the United Nations as one of the most faith friendly companies. And I and our head of HR were recognized for that as well. Right. It’s sort of like, wow, that’s came full circle, you know, 30 years ago and now being recognized by the United Nations, it was like, okay, this is pretty special.

Henry Kaestner: It is really special. Okay. So let’s go back to the juggling act a bit and this concept because all faith driven entrepreneurs wrestle with this, what does it look like? You’ve got four kids and they’re all at home when you’re writing the book. Talk to us about how you manage that. What was the juggling act about? Give our listeners a little bit of encouragement on that, please.

Pat Gelsinger: Sure. And it is you know, it’s sort of why the title is very fitting, right because you’re being stretched by work. And, you know, if you’re a good employee, how much do you want to work more? How much time does your family want more? How much time does your spouse want more? More. Right. So you’re just being stretched and, you know, how do you make that all work? And, you know, the juggling act was really my journey and how to make it all work. And, you know, some of the key themes that we developed in the book, one was a mission statement. Yeah, right. Where do you want to go? If you don’t have a plan of where you want to go, any path will get you there. So get very deliberate about your goals, your priorities, your values, and then systematically take things out of your life and consistent with those goals. Yeah, right. And allocate your time to those goals and then build clear your value driven priority and mechanisms to live that way. So set a mission statement. Another is to have mentors. Right? Okay. Henry, you are my mentor. Here’s my mission statement. Help me to live this way. Hold me accountable to what I said would be the case. Another is keeping score. And one of the things that people always get a kick out of is we had the at home chart, right, where, you know, you just sort of keep working a little bit later, a little bit later in the project and soon you’ve squashed the family hours in the evening. So we said, Hey, if I’m home by 6:15, that’s a point. If I’m home by 5:00, that’s 2.0. I like if I’m home after 6:15, that’s zero points. If I’m going weekend days, that’s a negative point. So that was the numerator. The denominator is the number of workdays and my secretary, an independent arbiter, would produce the at home chart on a monthly basis. So Linda would say, hey, you haven’t been home much lately. Yes, I have. No, you haven’t. Yeah, right. Well, now we have data, right? We look at the data and then she might say something like, Well, I felt like you haven’t been home much. Well, that’s different, right? The data says I have been home, but you haven’t felt that way. Oh, that’s totally different. But keeping score, keeping track. Are you living according.

Henry Kaestner: To talk about that though? So because one of the things I wrestle with a bit is kind of switching from my work life to coming home and I know so sometimes can really say like, I don’t know that you’re really kind of here, but I’m here. I mean, my independent arbitrator say you are absolutely home at 6:15, but I’m still thinking about customer acquisition or intellectual property or channels to market or whatever it is. Yeah. How do you have that discipline where you say, okay, now I’m focused on Linda and the kids. Yeah.

Pat Gelsinger: And I think, I think COVID has made this worse because now the day has no beginning and the day has no end. Yeah. So I think these matters in exactly this question have gotten harder in light of COVID work from anywhere, you know, hey, I’m four paces from my study to get started the work right here. So the day has no beginning. The day has no end, I can be, you know, in Europe in the morning and in Asia in the evening. I get you know, it’s pretty easy to have very long days that way. And it’s super important that, you know, you just develop the habits that allow you to disconnect, you know, become digitally naked, right? Turn off the devices, get them out of it so that you’re not in that immediate distraction mode. You know, listen, on purpose, go off and Linda will come back as as you really weren’t listen to me when I said I told you that yesterday. Yeah. Those should prick your soul when your spouse says things like that to you because you’re really not interested in their lives and priorities. Also say that particularly for entrepreneurs that might have kids at home, you know, they don’t care what time you get up in the morning. They don’t care what you do before breakfast. But they care an awful lot what you do between five and 8 p.m.. Yeah, yeah. Those are the Golden Family hours. And I’d say as a parent, you want to just like build fences around those, right? And really give those to your kids. And if you go back and work after 9 p.m., okay, that’s okay. But you know, really build fences around those evening hours, show up to their events, their sporting events, be all there. You know, sometimes I would take red eye flights just so I’d be home for, you know, a soccer game where my kid only got to play 5 minutes. Okay, but I’m going to be there. Yeah, right. That matters. Show up. Yeah.

Henry Kaestner: You mentioned mentorship as one of the things that you mentioned, of course, in the juggling act. And last time I saw you a couple of years ago, right before COVID, you’re talking about the fact that you’re still involved in mentorship. You know, I would imagine that the line of people want to be mentored by Pat Gelsinger, thousands long. But you still practice that. And do you still talk to a mentor?

Pat Gelsinger: I just spoke to Steve this morning. And, you know, last year was a very hard year on this subject for me because I had really five significant male influences that really influenced my life. You know, one was my dad. He passed away September 4th of last year. One was Andy Grove. You know, we just passed the sixth year of his passing. One was Luis Palau. Right. And, you know, he passed away just over a year ago. Another was Bryce Jessup from Texas.

Henry Kaestner: Of course.

Pat Gelsinger: He was another and he passed away a little bit over a year ago. So all of a sudden, you know, except for Steve, all of my yeah, he feels like I’m the old guy all of a sudden. And that was a rather startling experience. So my dad passed away last year and Steve was going through a major heart surgery and at the time, somewhat like yours and yours, all that’s happening, it’s sort of like, Wow, I’ve lost my mentors, but thank God, Steve still healthy and may I have to add one to my mentor list, but it’s really important, you know, and he’ll ask me hard questions regularly, you know, like, how is Linda doing? You know, how are you in her life? And are you continuing to be that person that is working with God to make her all that she was meant to be? And so holding me accountable to that, in addition to being a good advisor on some of my work trade offs. And, you know, that trusted voice, that speaking into your life. So, you know, I would be saying to all of the listeners here, if you don’t have good mentors, then you’re not serious about being everything that God intended you to be.

Henry Kaestner: So if I remember from our past conversation, it’s not just that you have these older people in your life that you occasionally talk to. There’s a discipline, a regimented discipline. Do it to How often do you speak to Steve and what would you recommend to folks that are establishing that relationship either with a mentee or with a mentor?

Pat Gelsinger: Yeah, Steve and I speak every Friday morning, 6 a.m. and obviously schedule and stuff like that. So we probably end up about twice a month, but we’ve been doing that for over 20 years.

Henry Kaestner: Wow. That’s awesome. Okay. You mentioned Bryce Jessop, and I want to switch conversation a little bit to philanthropy and giving and being actively involved in your community. So you’re CEO of Intel, you’ve got four kids, you’ve got eight grandkids. You get a lot of stuff going on. You would be forgiven if you just decided to just kind of write checks and be, you know, they’re going to get somebody else to do that. And yet you’ve gotten really, really involved in the community. So talk to us about TBC. Talk to us about this calling to an area and the leadership you provide not just to Intel, what you do so well, but the vision that you’ve provided to other Christian leaders in the Bay Area. Yeah.

Pat Gelsinger: Your overall backing up just slightly handling know Linda and I made a commitment very early in our marriage that we were going to give an increasing percentage of our gross income to philanthropy every year. Right. So that started with the tithe that 10%. And well, now we’re at about 50%, so about 50% of our gross income. So it started about 10% of nothing know now it’s 50% of a lot. Right, that we’re giving every year to charity. So, you know, first, I would challenge all the entrepreneurs, you know, build a lifestyle of generosity. Right. And hey, I am really excited about the cool things that we’re doing at Intel. But if you really want to hear me get passionate, let me talk to you about what’s going on at my philanthropies. Yeah, because those are really eternally life changing. And like one of them, Linda’s on the board of now. She’s going to Africa, to Kenya to invest in that. We have, you know, now the largest church planting organization that we helped start. So we’re the largest in the world with stadia. You know, we helped to start that, you know, been super involved with the Palau also forever. Yeah. We just had dinner with John Jackson, the president of William Jessup, this week with them. And, you know, these philanthropy investments can be the most fulfilling aspects of your life, and particularly as entrepreneurs, how you want to create success, you want to create wealth, but what do you want to do with that wealth? Right. If you start pouring it into ministries that truly become eternally shaping for humanity, okay. That can really release a lot of enthusiasm, energy, you know, passion. And ultimately, that’s what God would call us to do with our wealth and capabilities. Now with TBC, obviously, when we came back to the Bay area.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us about what TBC is.

Pat Gelsinger: Yeah. TBC transforming the bay with Christ and Melinda and I moved back to the bay. It was funny because she was not excited about coming back to the Bay Area. I say, you know, we’re living in Boston, enjoying ourself there with the […]. And she sort of scratched her claws across the nation. She came back to the Bay Area is like, I want to go back to the bay. Right. You know, there’s sort of crazy there. And then it was we came back, God brought one, two, three of our kids to the Bay Area and all eight of the grandkids, so were like, okay, he bless her decision to come back here. She’s thrilled now with that. But I also felt like when I became CEO of VMware that God was calling me to use this position of leadership in a much more influential way. And out of that came bringing together of business leaders that were Christians with the key faith leaders of the Bay Area to start a movement to truly transform the Bay Area with Christ. TBC And that now has been in operation for eight years now and really is about networking the churches of the Bay Area. It’s about, you know, helping them to be engaged in ministry in the Bay Area and ultimately multiplying the churches of the Bay Area. So we call it Unify, Amplify and multiply, right? The impact of Christ in the Bay Area and the Bay Area know, as I’ve said, it’s the richest area on earth, one of the most influential areas on Earth. It’s also one of the least philanthropic. Areas on earth and one of the least faith areas on Earth. Wow. That’s pretty hard soil. That’s my mission field. Right. You know, I get excited that, hey, you know, Christ shows up in the Bay Area. Yeah. He can show up anywhere physical, show up here in a powerful way, particularly coming off of COVID. I think the role of TBC in the Bay Area is maybe the most unique and impactful that it’s been since we started the effort eight years ago. The church is looking for, Hey, how do I get my footing again on the other side of COVID? So truly thrilling to see the momentum of it. It’s alive and well and the church in the Bay Area is alive and very well.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed it is. I can attest to that. So and encouragement that we’d have to all of you that are listening to this is what does it look like for you to be thoughtful and how God might have you love on folks where you’re planning, wherever the town, the village, the city, the region is, as it would, I think, encourage and challenge you as that. If you can do something like that in a kind of a bigger area like this with 54 different towns, you can think about doing it in your backyard as well as you bring together people in this network and say it again. It’s unify, amplify and multiply in your town. I’m so grateful for a time I can’t let you go before I just kind of throw out this kind of a grab bag one for you and you can answer any way you want to an audience of Faith driven entrepreneurs they’re trying to understand How do I know God more fully through my work? How do I do my work with excellence, how to lead my family? But gosh, how do I just make sure that I don’t lose my faith in the midst of this? All the things that are going on, anything that you have as an encouragement or a warning admonition, anything.

Pat Gelsinger: And you’re clearly your work can become so consuming. You’re, you know, in particularly you’re a couple of years into this entrepreneurial journey, you know, maybe you’re succeeding, maybe not, you know, you’re just pouring yourself into it because you’ve given so much of your life and passion to it. And I ask you all the question, are you still putting God on the throne every day? And, you know, if the answer to that is no, then what are you going to do to put God on the throne every single day? Every single morning? You know, where you in devotion, right? You know, are you really honoring him with the day? And, you know, some days, hey, he might stay on the throne till about 8:02. Okay, well, tomorrow we’re working on keeping God in the throne till 8:03, right? Yeah. I mean, stuff happens here, but are you putting him on the throne daily? Are you in fellowship with him or are you in regular worship in church? Do you have mentors who are keeping you accountable to the relationship and position that you would want God to have in your life? You know that iron sharpening iron. Okay, how is your devotion time going? However, you know people who are really to challenge, do each one of you have those kind of people that are challenging you and you’re going to screw up, you’re going to fail and so on. But then also seeing that the most important thing you do as a leader is to be a great leader, right? You know, make your company successful. You know, that is the most God honoring thing that you can do, right? You’re not doing work instead of faith. You’re doing faith through your work, right. In the workplace. And the most God honoring thing you can do is do that with excellence. And every day that you show up into the workplace, do it with absolute excellence. And then finally, it would be that as a leader and particularly now as a public company leader as well, I mean, I am thrilled that I get to speak through today 121,000 people at Intel. Right. You know, I get to make their lives better every day. You know, I get to help them create wealth for their families, improve the communities that they’re in, you know, demonstrate through, you know, our benefits, through our foundation and philanthropies that we do as a company, that I want to unleash their passions into their communities and to what’s most important to them. I want to create a workplace that they truly are thrilled with so I can be my full self when I show up at Intel and as a leader, as a CEO, that’s what you get to do each day. You know what could be more thrilling than to say I’m positively impacting 121,000 lives on a daily basis? Wow. You know, but then I also get to say through what we do at Intel, you know that we are here improving the lives of every human on the planet through the power of technology.

Henry Kaestner: I was going to suggest that if you didn’t. Yes.

Pat Gelsinger: You know, it’s just so cool. It’s just you know, and I you know, I helped to create USB, I helped to create wi fi. I helped to create the personal computer. I helped to create the cloud. Okay. You know, we’re now at 60% of humans are connected to the Internet. By 2030, that’ll be 90%. Wow. Yeah. I’m going to touch the lives of every human on the planet and make their lives better. Right. You know, we’re going to educate, right? And education, the best way to lift people out of extreme poverty is. Yeah, that’s the stuff we got to do because technology. And you’re impacting the world. And what can be more thrilling than a Christian to say, that’s right, I’m improving the lives of every human on the planet.

Henry Kaestner: It’s really awesome. It’s really awesome. Pat, I’m so grateful for your time, for your leadership, for your friendship, for your encouragement in the Bay Area and beyond. On behalf of our audience. Thank you very much.

Pat Gelsinger: Thank you, Henry.

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Today on the podcast, we are joined by Henry Kaestner, co-founder of Sovereign’s Capital and Faith Driven Investor, and Ron Blue, founder and president of Ronald Blue Co. Our conversation focuses on the recently released book “Faith Driven Investing: Every Investment Has an Impact. What’s Yours?” This global movement is all about investing in human flourishing and driving capital into initiatives that stand for something significant. Put the collective words in the palm of your hands. If you haven’t downloaded the book yet, click here. Get a free copy if you’re one of the first 200 to register now for a Faith Driven Investor Foundation Group launching in January 2023. 

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. We have a very special episode for you today. This is John Coleman and I am joined by two legends of the faith driven investing movement. Ron Blue is here with us today as well as Henry Kaestner. And we’re celebrating the launch of the Faith Driven Investor book, which has come out now and is available over electronic copy. It’s launching soon in hard copy. And we’re just so pleased that the book is out there that so many people have been able to tell their stories and that both Ron and Henry can talk to us about the launch today. Those of you who are listeners of Faith Driven podcast generally will know my business partner, Henry Kaestner. Henry, co-founded Sovereign’s Capital. He co-founded Bandwidth, co-founded Faith Driven Investor and Faith Driven Entrepreneur, and has really been an encouragement to so many of us. He’s one of the reasons I got into this industry and has helped so many others get activated. And of course, Ron Blue has been at the center of some of the most important institutions in the faith driven investing world. The founder of Ronald Blue Trust, one of the founders of the National Christian Foundation of Kingdom Advisors, and such a counselor to so many other folks. And so we’re really privileged to have both of you join today. Thank you for coming on.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you, John. I think that’s if he call it a legend alongside Ron Blue is very deserving of a chuckle. I’m anything but that, but Ron is indeed that. And so it’s a great honor to be on this episode, to talk about the book. And then for somebody like Ron Blue to spend time with us, both with the book and on today’s podcast is a great honor.

Ron Blue: Well, you’re very kind, but you let me tell the truth. So thank you. I appreciate that. And the reason you become a legend is you don’t have a long time. I’m 80 years old. So have you just said this ten years ago? I wouldn’t be a legend, but today I am maybe.

John Coleman: Well, thank you both for being here. And maybe just to kick off Henry, I know this is the second book in a series of books on Faith Driven. The first was Faith Driven Entrepreneur. Maybe just to start with, what made you want to try and pull together folks around a Faith Driven Investor book and tell us what your hope is for the book?

Henry Kaestner: We really enjoyed the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book that we put together, and one of the things that was great about it was that I did get an opportunity to share a bit about the way that God had worked through bandwidth, through David and I. But we also had J.D. Greer write some of the chapters and Chip Ingram, write some of the chapters, and Lecrae wrote the foreword, and it was a great joy to work on this is a team of four and I wanted to double down on that. I thought as we look at something like faith driven investing with the complexity that’s involved in stewarding the resources that God has entrust us with across market return investments, concessionary return investments or patient capital. And then on the third end of the spectrum, of course, philanthropy and giving, there’s a lot there is also a lot of history there. And if we want to be able to tell the story the right way and I still think that there’s so much more of the story to be taught, but if we wanted to be able to approach it the right way, it would be most beneficial for the movement and for our readers if they could hear lots of different perspectives from people who are really experts in the space. And some of those people are experts in the world of finance and investing. Ron Blue Of course, being a great example and others like Finny Kuruvilla and it will be McKinsey, Cathie Wood, Will Thomas, Ofosu Jumo, just the list goes on and we’ve got I guess maybe 15 people worked on this project, but also people like Tim Keller and Andy Crouch, who ostensibly when you look at it, you want to think of them as being finance experts, and yet they are experts in culture and identity, spiritual formation and discipleship. And so we wanted to get their voices into a really important project.

John Coleman: That’s fantastic. Henry And maybe dive into that a little bit deeper, because I think as you approach the book, you note that this is not just about sin screens, although that may be okay. It’s not just about negative screens. This is about a more comprehensive look at what it means to invest with faith aligned values. What does that mean for you and why is this a different contribution to the literature on this subject?

Henry Kaestner: Great question. So I think it is core of the book and the core of all of our lives is this desire to know God and enjoy him forever. And what we wanted to convey in the book is a lot of practical advice about how we might go about doing that with the investments that God has entrusted us with. But to start that off on this formation of the two principles that really guide our Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor movement, which is number one, is to receive the gift of the gospel, a new and even deeper level to be reminded of the God who loves us so much that sent His son at great cost to reconcile us to him and allow us to steep in that where we are as disciples, but then also where God has us in the marketplace as entrepreneurs and investors. And then to accept the invitation. To participate in the work that God is doing in his kingdom, to have a different sense of what God might have in store for us and His Kingdom as it is brought about on Earth, as it is in Heaven under His power for His glory, and just the joy that comes along with that. So we know that there’s great utility in having practical advice and wisdom, but we wanted to steep it again. A new in a gospel and kingdom message and then to build off of that with some concepts of, okay, so how do you bridge the discipleship, the gospel through to markets? Well, how do we think differently about risk? How in a world in which there’s been some great work done on making sure that we know about the products we invest in and how to avoid investing in so-called sin stocks, things like gambling and adult entertainment, etc. But how are we known for what we’re for? How can we have our investing that reflects the image of the Creator? God, how do we redefine return? What does that look like? How do we find beauty in broken things? How do we, as I said before, think differently about risk? How do we do it in community? God create us in community. The temptation, especially with wealth, is that wealth isolates. How can we invest well in a way that rewards those we invest in in ourselves and community? How do we think about partnerships and then really looking at this concept of point from one pocket? And I mentioned this before, we want to be able to look at investing in this newer, holistic level, which is, okay, we have these financial resources that God has entrusted us with. How might He have us deploy those assets to participate in the work he’s doing, but then to deploy them with market rate return when it’s called for it, when the opportunity or the cause that we see calls for market rate return, because that’s oftentimes the best way to be able to deploy capital. Sometimes it’s patient or concessionary. And then let’s bring giving and philanthropy into the equation as we’re really investing not just for financial return for ourselves, but like in the parable of sowers, we’re investing for eternity here. And so I think that when we get up to heaven, it’s not going to necessarily be this key distinction of what our investment portfolios did or what our philanthropic portfolios did, but just holistically, how do we deploy capital? So how can we look at that? And that’s one of the reasons why we have so many authors, because that’s a complicated question and dynamic. We wanted lots of people to speak into that.

John Coleman: Ron, I want to turn to you, if that’s okay. I mean, you’ve thought as deeply and as long about faith driven investing is probably anyone on the planet. Maybe you could just reflect on some of what Henry said and your own understanding what the Scripture tells us about investing and what our calling as investors is with relation to our faith.

Ron Blue: Well, Henry just used a word that I wrote down because I didn’t want to miss it. And that was think. Okay. We think differently as believers than those who aren’t, because our thinking is Holy Spirit driven, God’s word as our source. And so we think differently. And I like to illustrate faith based investing and faith based finances. And when I speak and I hold up the Wall Street Journal and I said, Now here’s the best of the best that comes out on a daily basis. But when I look at it and I say now, however, the date on this is April 20, 2021. Now. How relevant is it today? And the answer is, it may be there may be some things that are relevant, but I’ve got to read this every day, and it may or may not be relevant for some length of time. And then I hold my Bible and I say, this was written 3000 years ago, and it never changes. And I, I take the Wall Street Journal then, and I put it inside the Bible, and I say, this is faith based finances. And faith based investing is applying God’s wisdom to the best of the professional world. And it looks different when you make wisdom based decisions. You need the knowledge. No question about that. But that alone will not necessarily give you the right thinking on investments. And you know what’s really interesting Colossians 2 versus two and three, say for in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Isn’t that interesting? That is my answer to what is faith based investing. It is applying God’s wisdom to the Holy Spirit and His Word to the best that there could possibly be out there in the professional world. So I look at a guy like Henry who’s been incredibly successful in the investing world. Now, a lot of people have been really, really good in the investing world. And I think if any, you know, one of the brightest guys that any of us would ever want to meet or Jerry Bowyer or Bob Dole or a lot of the people that are out there are the best of the best. But you know that they begin their day talking to the Lord. And God then can work through them, through the day. And I know I’ve experienced and I’m sure you have to, John and Henry, but I’ve gone into a meeting with someone and I prayed for wisdom. And I go in there and something happens. I’ll ask a question that I did not plan on asking or make a comment that I did not plan on making. And I’ll say, Wow, God was at work. And I’ve walked out. And I said, That was one of the best questions I’ve ever asked. And I knew it didn’t come from me. It wasn’t mine. So that to me is the combining of the wisdom and the knowledge. So I’m combining two languages into one and making my decisions on that basis. That’s the way I would think about it. The other thing I would think about, Henry said something else about eternity, and I was asked a question by a really successful investment guy a couple of weeks ago, and he said, I’m getting ready to have a meeting tomorrow with a client. And he’s really concerned about this economy. And this morning at coffee, I was asked by somebody, what’s the stock market going to do? You’re a financial expert. And I said, Well, let me answer it this way. I said, Some of my friends think it’s going to go up. Some of my friends think it’s going to go down. And I’m for my friends. So we don’t know, of course. But anyway, I was answering this question about how do I talk to this person? And I say, What is your client a believer? And he said, Yes. And I said, okay. Number one, I would ask him, So have you sold? And if the answer is no, and then I say, Well, then you haven’t lost any money yet. And that’s where people make a mistake. They tend to think it’s kind of like buying a house. Markets go up, markets go down. And that and I said, secondly, if you’ve planned well, you’ve planned for the ups and downs. I mean, that’s a part of the economy. And we know that we live in a fallen world and markets are going to go down. I’ve lived 80 years. I’ve seen a lot of markets, a lot of crashes. But then the third thing that I say, and it’s coming back to what Henry said in terms of eternity, I said to this adviser, I said, you know, if the person believes that God owns it all, then he hasn’t lost anything yet. Yeah, it’s God’s. Yeah. And God has a right. And it changes my perspective if I think of it that way. I think God is I’m doing this, I’m investing. And you said it already that God entrusted me with these resources and they are going to go up and go down in terms of the investments that I do. They don’t always go up. And if he owns it, I can’t lose it.

Henry Kaestner: Yes. One thing I want to add in and, John, that I should have mentioned before about the book, because this is so important, because it underpins the movement, is that while in the book you’ll see great examples about public markets investing in private investing and real estate investing, etc.. What undergirds all of this is the concept of hard posture, which is this movement is not meant to be prescriptive or presumptuous. It’s an invitation for us all to get down on our knees with our spouses or with our investment committees and ask God how we might steward the capital that He has entrusted us with. It’s an opportunity to commune with the living God, and that’s something that’s really, really powerful. And so it’s not meant to be this big yoke around. It’s like, Oh my goodness, guys, give me this money. And it is just if I make this mistake. No, no, no, no. God wants us to be faithful and obedient. Yes. But he’s invited us into something greater, which is just being with him in our 9 to 5 job to include the money that we invest. And it’s a beautiful thing, but it’s not meant to be a negative thing. Like, don’t do this, don’t do that. Or if you don’t invest this way, it’s going to be bad. Or, you know, you can get down on your knees with your spouse. And the answer may be from God to invest in solar farms in Nevada desert. Somebody else may get down on their knees and the answer may be to invest in an emerging market. It’s in developing entrepreneurs. There is somebody else. Real estate. There’s no answer other than to seek God in his wisdom.

John Coleman: When did this first hit home for you, Henry? With regards to both entrepreneurship and investing, I know it’s been some time, but do you remember that moment where this hit home for you?

Henry Kaestner: Well, when I was running bandwidth with David, I had a verse. It was printed on my computer to remind me not to. Every hour, check out the latest going on in the sports world at the espn.com, which was effectively. To whom much is given. Much is expected. And effectively, if you don’t deliver, you’re going to be beaten with many blows. It was meant to keep me focused, and there is a performance mentality that I had about my job and then the investments I had, which is I’m going to be held accountable at the end of time about all the things I thought and did. And my view of God was so much different than it is now. It was an incomplete and I think a false version of God. Now, while all those things are in Scripture, the totality of Scripture is an invitation to the life that is fully life. And the fact that we are actually participants in what we pray for every day, that God’s kingdom would come about on Earth as is in Heaven. And I can’t remember exactly when it happened, but there is a transition from me believing that I was earning my own salvation to one where I finally realized I couldn’t I couldn’t do it, couldn’t do it under my own power. And it brought me deeper into the gospel. And actually a big pivotal point for me both in my entrepreneurship and my investing, is when I met a really good friend of mine and Ron’s when I was 38. So I came to faith at 28. At 38, I met this guy named Daryl Heald. Kimberly and I were given maybe 20% at the time, Bandwith was doing well, given 20%. I thought there’s probably a special place in heaven for the double tithe. I don’t know what we’re getting, but it’s coming to us. Right. And he asked me this question that sent me reeling, which is. Henry, why do you give. Why do you give? And I don’t know what my answer was at the time, and he doesn’t either. We’ve become great friends, but it’s probably theologically seem like something along the lines of, I don’t want to pay it forward. I don’t even know. But it seemed that everything that happened in my scripture reading over the next six months, it had to do something with money. Wow. Even the ones that even the passages that didn’t. So things like God taken five loaves and two fish from that boy and feeding 5000. And I realized that he had all of that boy’s heart, but he had 20% of mine. Ron mentioned something a little bit ago about the concept of God owning it all. When I came to understand that and I came to understand he actually didn’t need me to advance his kingdom, but he invited me into it is a gift and it’s not a burden, but it’s an invitation to something much bigger. It completely changed my world and gave me a sense of a God who loves me and wants something better for me in my vocation and in my investments. And a countercultural view as I came to understand that God owned it all in a way that freed me up. To have more joy is just you can only see that in God’s economy. So that’s what it happened for me. Thanks for asking.

John Coleman: And this holds a special place for me because, you know, when I came to the industries, God led me into faith driven investing. But he used a guy named Henry Kaestner and another guy named Luke Roush who really exposed me to this. And it’s exactly that authenticity and passion, I think, Henry, that were first attracted to me. I want to turn back to Ron momentarily. But Henry, what do you hope people reading this book leave with? What are the kind of two or three things that you hope as people read this book that they really come away with?

Henry Kaestner: Just this deeper realization of the God who loves them and just an invitation to participate in the work he’s doing in the world that will give them more, more joy. And in doing it and community being a part of the story that he is working in our backyards, across real estate, across private equity, public equity, and then also overseas. He’s got something beautiful in store for us and the gifts that he’s asked us to store and he’s given them to us because he wants them to be a tool to bring us closer to him. And if people can come away from this with a different view and a fuller view of the loving God, that’s a win. If people can come away from this and do nothing other than getting down on their knees again and just say, God, I now I think I understand the financial assets you’ve entrusted with me more. Direct my steps. Help me to understand. That’s the big win.

John Coleman: That’s a good word. And I know we’ve all talked about how we can’t earn our way to heaven, but I have heard that you can get a leg up if you leave a five star review on Amazon or your favorite review site or purchase more than ten copies. And I have heard that that makes a difference. Correct me if I’m wrong. And so, Ron, we’ve heard from Henry what he hopes people take away from the book is you think about your own contribution, which was, as you touched on earlier, being attuned to God’s word in the course of investing. Or if you’re in financial life, what is it that you hope people really take from your contribution to the book?

Ron Blue: Well, I think that the most significant question we referred to it a couple of times, but that is who owns it. You know, and until you answer that question, you’re not a steward. And when you answer that question, it changes everything. Because money transcends all of life. So if we just look at money being investments are being how I spend my money, if God owns it all, my decision making is different. And I believe that, you know, your checkbook reveals your spirituality. It is one objective measurement of spirituality. So what I would hope people take away from it is that God owns it all and He gives you all the wisdom you need when you need it to think right about what you’re doing, be in investing or whatever. So that question I guess the second question, John, would be Hebrews 13:5. I used to say this until you set a finish line. You’ll never stop accumulating. There’s nothing wrong with accumulating, but accumulating for what? And then when you have a finish line, it allows you to go beyond even in your giving. We helped a lot of people in our firm give away, a lot of money, but they had to set a finish line first and then they understood that the rest of it was really excess. And it’s okay to have it. It’s okay to have wealth. There’s nothing wrong with that. But the people who give major amounts away have set a finish line. And I come back to the question, how much is enough? And the answers in the Bible, Hebrews 13:5. It says, Be content with what you have. And so I believe this, that if if you’re not content with what you have, you’ll never be content with what you don’t have yet. And I think we fight a real battle today against greed because it is so prevalent in this affluent society that we live in. So I would like for people to come away asking the right question, because you don’t ask the right question. You never get the right answer. Who owns it? How much is enough? Are you content? That would be my hope.

John Coleman: Ron, one of the things we’ve heard from Henry and from so many others is how you’ve inspired them in the area of faith driven investing, of managing your capital in a way that’s aligned with faith as you think about your own career in life. Who have you looked to as an inspiration in that world of people? Obviously, the Scripture very much so. But are there people who have really encouraged you on that path, or are there people you look to today who you think are innovating and are really helping us to move this idea of faith driven financial management or investing forward?

Ron Blue: Well, yes, kind of in the past and in the future, I was really, really fortunate, I think, in that when I became a believer in 1974, I was in a discipleship group. Within a week, and discipleship, especially one on one discipleship is pretty rare today. And that’s really unfortunate because we need that accountability. We need that direction. You know, the guy that was discipling me, he and I were getting on an elevator, a five story building, and we stepped on the elevator and the doors closed. The elevator was full. And he said, Ron, tell me what you think of Jesus Christ. And, you know, I muttered and stuttered and so forth. And we got off on the fifth floor and he said, I wanted to just to teach you the value of a 10 seconds testimony.

John Coleman: Wow.

Ron Blue: I’ve never forgotten that, of course. And that was 50 years ago, probably now. And he stayed a mentor of mine throughout his life. He died not too long ago. In fact, the three people that impacted me the most, he was one. Dr. Howard Hendricks from Dallas Seminary, was a person in his generation who may have done about as much for the kingdom as anybody. But I called Hendricks all the time. He had the ability to take a concept or a thought and put an end to saying, for example, he said, You don’t know whether you’ve been a successful parent, until your children have raised their children. Well, that gives you a whole different perspective on raising kids. He also said, never forget it. He said, You know, if you want to find out how important you are, you should put your fist in a bucket of water, take it out and see what kind of impression you left. He had the ability to say things like that. And so I quote Hendricks a lot when I speak, and he meant a lot to me. And then the third person that had a real impact in my life was Dr. Bill Bright, the founder of Campus Crusade. I was on the Campus Crusade board for about 25 years, and I stayed on that board because he gave me eight days a year ago, right? And Bill was a man of faith. Incredible faith. If there was ever a problem, I call him one time. And I said, I got a real problem, Bill. I need some help. And I told him of my problems and he said, Wow, what an opportunity to trust God. And that was. Bill. He was famous for saying that because that was his life and the way he lived his life. So Dr. Bright taught me a lot about faith. He taught me a lot about leadership. He taught me a lot about vision. There is no greater visionary. He taught me a lot about leadership. He let people lead. You know, I think of the ministries that came out of Campus Crusade with the Jesus film and athletes in action and family life radio and on and on and on and on. 50,000 staff around the world. It was such a privilege to have a world perspective and to be in the shadow of such a man of faith. So I’ve been a very, very blessed man, John. You’ve gotten to know a lot of leaders and see those that succeeded and seen those that failed. And I tell you, quite frankly, my concern right now is that we’ve in the Christian world, we’ve become somewhat of a celebrity culture. And that’s scary because that is really hard to handle. Celebrity. I wouldn’t consider myself a celebrity, but I’ve done a lot of speaking and I just I discipline myself when anybody complimented me on a speech or thought or whatever. I never denied it. But in my heart I said, thank you, God, because God did. And I just am concerned that I would become a celebrity culture in the Christian world. And so the humble man of faith is rare. Now, frankly, I consider Henry to be one of those guys and a guy like Bob Dole that I know really well in the investment world, same thing. I don’t know much more humble man than Bob. So there are examples out there, hugely successful people who have humility and we need it. It scares me when people become famous. Whether they can handle it or not.

John Coleman: When we’ve seen so many instances where that’s gone wrong recently and you’re right. You know, it feels to me there’s a careful balance to strike in the sense that God does raise up men and women to do his work, to do great things. He’s done that since biblical times. At the same time, with that profile comes risks, right? With the elevation comes risk. And how people manage that with humility is such an important part of their legacy because it’s so easy for that to go wrong. And you’re right, it does seem to me that humility is the key component that keeps people from going off track, right? The ability to credit credit where it’s due to know that it’s not about them and to constantly remind themselves that they’re on a mission and that that mission is not their own advancement, it’s not their own celebrity. And to never become too enamored with that, because we know that’s all ephemeral. Right. And that we’re really serving something much higher.

Ron Blue: Well, and frankly, in the faith driven investing world. You’ve got a real opportunity there to help people understand. I would say the perspective of wealth and why God gives you wealth. And I believe he gives you a wealth to use. Maybe it’s giving and maybe it’s investing. From a spiritual standpoint, there’s no difference because God owns it all. Okay, so you’re using his resources to accomplish his purposes and people respect those that are experts in the investment world. So there’s an authority there that has been given to Faith Driven Investor and Faith driven entrepreneurs and needs to be handled with terrific humility because it’s a gift. Okay. It is a gift.

John Coleman: That’s right.

Ron Blue: I consider myself one of the most blessed men in the world because I know so many really good people and I’ve seen so many faithful people. So I’m pleased that you considered me to write a part of the book and be a part of what you’re doing.

John Coleman: One that’s Ron. I can say this because I am not a contributor to the book. It is an exceptional group of people. And and you’re right. I mean, there are so many really bright voices in the space right now. There are a number of incredibly smart, incredibly capable, but also incredibly humble people like Kathy, like Finney, like yourself, like Rob, like my partners, Luke and Henry, who I think are really advancing this work in a meaningful way and also avoiding many of the trappings that you described. And I know that we all are incredibly grateful that you chose to be a part of the book, but much more importantly than that, that you’ve chosen to build a career in this area and that you’ve chosen to really advance the ball through Ronald Blue Trust, through NCF, through Kingdom Advisors, through your other efforts in a way that’s inspired so many others. So we’re really grateful to have you on today, Ron, to talk about this.

Ron Blue: I consider it a privilege. John, thanks for asking me.

John Coleman: And I would be remiss if I didn’t end the show by just reiterating the Faith Driven Investing book is out now, an electronic copy. There will be hard copies available in January of 2023. It’s from Tyndale and if you go to Faith Driven Investor dot org right now and register for one of the Faith Driven Investor Foundation groups launching in January. If you’re one of the first 200, you will get a free copy of the book. So there is a great deal if you’re going to do that. We encourage everybody to check it out. There are wonderful contributions by Ron and Henry and others, and we’re so grateful to you for listening to us today. Thank you.

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John and Ashely Marsh have dedicated themselves to the resurrection of place in the historic downtown of Opelika, Alabama. Like many small mill towns around the country, Opelika’s main street had deteriorated to a state of hopelessness and disrepair. One historic house in 1998 began a 20-year journey of redeeming a city. Today, their work of restoring over 150 properties and launching 40 small businesses in those 10 square blocks has become the gold standard for small-town revitalization in the state of Alabama. Opelika’s story, an account of beauty from brokenness, mirrors John and Ashley’s personal story. They share more about a new class of community.