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Intel CEO, Pat Gelsinger, has been a leader in the Faith and Work movement for decades. 

In this interview from the 2022 Faith Driven Investor Conference, Pat talks about some of the most important lessons he’s learned as he’s sought to bring his whole self into the workplace over the years. 

He also gives insight into how leaders can balance their work and family life, empower their communities, and love their employees, partners, and coworkers who come to work with different faith backgrounds. Let’s listen in. 

Episode Transcript

Henry Kaestner: Welcome, Faith driven entrepreneurs. It is an incredible honor to be here with Pat Gelsinger, CEO of Intel. And when we think his faith driven entrepreneurs about what it looks like to be a faith driven leader. A lot of us think, well, gosh, we can talk about our faith or be informed by our faith if maybe we’re running a small company in maybe the Bible Belt or something like that. But other than that, we just really have to buy into a secular spiritual divide and maybe leave our faith at home and maybe just look at it on weekends in a church. If there is a place in America, at least that people think is not very faith friendly, a lot of people think Silicon Valley or they might think of big, publicly traded company. But we’ve got a guy here who is the CEO of one of the very biggest publicly traded companies in the Bay Area who’s very serious about his faith. So, Pat, what an honor and privilege and a blessing for you to share some time with us. Thank you.

Pat Gelsinger: Hey, thanks, Henry. Appreciate what you do for the entrepreneurs. And a real pleasure to spend some time chatting today.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you. Thank you. So maybe we just start off with that, which is what does it look like to be driven by your faith and be a leader of a really big company?

Pat Gelsinger: Well, you know, it’s been a journey for me since early on. And in fact, maybe a little bit of the story of how I got here is funny, where I was very young in my faith. You know, I was working at Intel a few months and, you know, I felt compelled by God to go into ministry. And I’m a very young Christian and I’m, you know, at Intel, maybe eight months at this point, you know, had just become a Christian, maybe five, four months earlier. And God says, go into full time ministry. And I started arguing with God. I said, I don’t want to be a minister. I don’t want to be one of those pastor folks. I love this technology stuff while I’m doing it. You know, I’m wrestling with God for a while and okay, God, I give up, right? If this happens, I’ll go into full time ministry. And the answer from God was The workplace is your ministry. And Colossians three, 23 and 24 became my life verse work heartily. As for the Lord and not them, not from men. Knowing that you receive the reward of the inheritance, it is the Lord Christ whom you serve. And that’s always been saying, okay, you know, I’m in the workplace, but I’m a full time Christian, full time minister, you visible for my faith in those roles. And boy, that’s been the journey of almost 40 years now as a Christian, as a leader in the workplace. And to me it’s been occasionally challenging but extraordinarily rewarding, knowing that, yeah, I work for Intel no. I work for the Lord Jesus Christ on a daily basis.

Henry Kaestner: So how does that work out? A lot of people talk about Saint Francis of Assisi, and that’s the way to kind of inform what we do. And, you know, just preach the gospel, always use words when necessary. Of course, what’s missing in that is that he is also one of the most famous open air pastors of all time. Right. But you’ve navigated through deed and excellence and also sharing your faith. This is not the first time you’ve talked about your faith in front of a public audience. How do you navigate that tension?

Pat Gelsinger: And, you know, in many ways, I’ll say, you know, there’s a couple of key rules that I’ve learned over time to navigate that. Well, you know, one is I’d say, you know, first the thesis behind how you bring your faith into the workplace. And today there’s a lot of discussion on diversity and inclusion. And it turns out that for humanity, over 70% of all humans on the earth claim that faith is an or the most important thing in their lives. So if we’re going to talk about diversity and inclusion, but we’re not going to allow faith in the workplace, I’m telling 70% of humanity. No, the most important thing that you can’t come into the workplace. So, of course, diversity and inclusion means that faith needs to come into the workplace, it needs to be visible. Otherwise, I’m telling you, keep that at home. But other aspects of inclusion you’re able to bring into the workplace, you know, that doesn’t work, right? You know, diversity and inclusion is all about bringing your whole self into the workplace, your ethnic self, you know, your sexual orientation, your social and your faith. So I say I’m proud of bringing my faith into the workplace. And in fact, if I, as the CEO who’s the chief culture officer of Intel, can’t demonstrate my diversity in the workplace, then how can anybody? So, in fact, I need to be representing my faith, what’s most important to me or other aspects of my personality in the workplace. But then the second piece of it is, is I also then, as a Christian CEO, need to make it okay for everybody else to bring their faith perspectives into the workplace. And, oh, you’re a Sikh. Tell me about being a Sikh. Oh, what’s Ramadan? Yo, let’s go. Hey, you know, I just was talking to my board of directors was celebrating Ramadan. I said, next year, I’m going to celebrate it with you and I’m going to do the fasting with you next year as well. I want to know about your faith and your perspectives and so on. And for that, you know, people might say, well, you’re proselytizing if you talk about your faith. No, I’m bringing my whole self into the workplace. And I must make it okay for all other faith perspectives, including no faith. I hear someone say, you know, I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in any faith. Well, great, that’s your worldview. And I need to make that okay too when they’re part of my team, part of the workplace that we’re together [……].

Henry Kaestner: So presumably when you encourage that and allow someone to bring their whole selves to work, people feel more welcome and they stick around more. They do more excellent work and and probably even flow through to the bottom line.

Pat Gelsinger: Yeah. And in fact, you know, there’s lots of studies now that have shown that a more diverse, inclusive workspace brings better outcomes. You know, people, hey, if I’m able to, you know, bring my whole self into the workplace, I feel honored in my faith traditions or, you know, my cultural and ethnic predecent. Then I’m able to participate more effectively in work discussions as well. And I can bring those perspectives where, you know, I mean, the famous story of the first version of the Apple Watch, right, where it didn’t detect the women’s period because there was nobody on the design team who was a female. Oh, right. It’s sort of like you immediately just saw, hey, not having a gender diversity was a total design flaw in the product. Well, this is every aspect of bringing yourself into the workplace. And how will this product or this decision be seen by different ethnic groups, different social groups, different genders, etc.? And of course, as we said, faith has one of those.

Henry Kaestner: So that’s fascinating to me. I have a friend of mine named Chris Seipel, who is a big proponent for religious freedom, and he has a phrase that I really like, which is truth stands out in the marketplace of ideas, and that as faith driven leaders, we should welcome that and include that and encourage people to bring their whole selves work. So I think that’s really cool. And one of the things that will probably be a surprise to most of our listeners and most of our watchers is that the concept of faith driven employee resource groups really started out here right at Apple and then Facebook and then Google.

Pat Gelsinger: and in Intel.

Henry Kaestner: And of course at Intel. Of course at Intel. But that would be a surprise to a lot of folks to think that maybe they’re in Chicago right now are thinking, well, I don’t really know. I could yeah, maybe if I’m in Nashville, I could but can’t do it in Chicago actually out here that’s now accepted business. Right.

Pat Gelsinger: And we have over 30 different employee resource groups now with the company. And one of the earliest ones was the Intel Christian Bible Network that I helped to start, you know, many, many years ago.

Henry Kaestner: How long ago is that? So that’s a long time.

Pat Gelsinger: Over 30 years ago when we first did that. And in fact, you know, the first outline for the juggling act book was in preparation for my first speaking at the first Intel Christian Bible Network. You were talking about having a lunch time brown bag kind of event where people would show up and people sit Pat, Pat. You know, as a leader inside of the company, we really want you to, you know, be that Christian face as we kick off the Intel Christian Bible Network. And I said, Well, what should I talk about? Right. I don’t know. You know, maybe, you know, how do you make faith work and your family fit together? Oh, okay. And that became the outline for the book. And I’ve given that talk, of course, you know, now probably a thousand plus times or.

Henry Kaestner: 20 years ago, maybe, you.

Pat Gelsinger: Know, the first version of the book was over 20 years ago. The second version of the book was, I think nine years ago now. Right. The juggling act. And it was really born out of okay, I got to come up with some talk for our kickoff of the Intel Christian Bible Network. And now that whole theme of […] is really flourished inside of Intel. And we have, you know, different faith groups, different sexual orientation groups, different ethnic groups. You’re also, you know, different classes, you know, a black leadership group. We have a, you know, a veterans group as well for those coming out of the military into the workforce, you know, and of course, across some of the other regions of the world, you know, different slices that are important for them. And in fact, last year, we were recognized by the United Nations as one of the most faith friendly companies. And I and our head of HR were recognized for that as well. Right. It’s sort of like, wow, that’s came full circle, you know, 30 years ago and now being recognized by the United Nations, it was like, okay, this is pretty special.

Henry Kaestner: It is really special. Okay. So let’s go back to the juggling act a bit and this concept because all faith driven entrepreneurs wrestle with this, what does it look like? You’ve got four kids and they’re all at home when you’re writing the book. Talk to us about how you manage that. What was the juggling act about? Give our listeners a little bit of encouragement on that, please.

Pat Gelsinger: Sure. And it is you know, it’s sort of why the title is very fitting, right because you’re being stretched by work. And, you know, if you’re a good employee, how much do you want to work more? How much time does your family want more? How much time does your spouse want more? More. Right. So you’re just being stretched and, you know, how do you make that all work? And, you know, the juggling act was really my journey and how to make it all work. And, you know, some of the key themes that we developed in the book, one was a mission statement. Yeah, right. Where do you want to go? If you don’t have a plan of where you want to go, any path will get you there. So get very deliberate about your goals, your priorities, your values, and then systematically take things out of your life and consistent with those goals. Yeah, right. And allocate your time to those goals and then build clear your value driven priority and mechanisms to live that way. So set a mission statement. Another is to have mentors. Right? Okay. Henry, you are my mentor. Here’s my mission statement. Help me to live this way. Hold me accountable to what I said would be the case. Another is keeping score. And one of the things that people always get a kick out of is we had the at home chart, right, where, you know, you just sort of keep working a little bit later, a little bit later in the project and soon you’ve squashed the family hours in the evening. So we said, Hey, if I’m home by 6:15, that’s a point. If I’m home by 5:00, that’s 2.0. I like if I’m home after 6:15, that’s zero points. If I’m going weekend days, that’s a negative point. So that was the numerator. The denominator is the number of workdays and my secretary, an independent arbiter, would produce the at home chart on a monthly basis. So Linda would say, hey, you haven’t been home much lately. Yes, I have. No, you haven’t. Yeah, right. Well, now we have data, right? We look at the data and then she might say something like, Well, I felt like you haven’t been home much. Well, that’s different, right? The data says I have been home, but you haven’t felt that way. Oh, that’s totally different. But keeping score, keeping track. Are you living according.

Henry Kaestner: To talk about that though? So because one of the things I wrestle with a bit is kind of switching from my work life to coming home and I know so sometimes can really say like, I don’t know that you’re really kind of here, but I’m here. I mean, my independent arbitrator say you are absolutely home at 6:15, but I’m still thinking about customer acquisition or intellectual property or channels to market or whatever it is. Yeah. How do you have that discipline where you say, okay, now I’m focused on Linda and the kids. Yeah.

Pat Gelsinger: And I think, I think COVID has made this worse because now the day has no beginning and the day has no end. Yeah. So I think these matters in exactly this question have gotten harder in light of COVID work from anywhere, you know, hey, I’m four paces from my study to get started the work right here. So the day has no beginning. The day has no end, I can be, you know, in Europe in the morning and in Asia in the evening. I get you know, it’s pretty easy to have very long days that way. And it’s super important that, you know, you just develop the habits that allow you to disconnect, you know, become digitally naked, right? Turn off the devices, get them out of it so that you’re not in that immediate distraction mode. You know, listen, on purpose, go off and Linda will come back as as you really weren’t listen to me when I said I told you that yesterday. Yeah. Those should prick your soul when your spouse says things like that to you because you’re really not interested in their lives and priorities. Also say that particularly for entrepreneurs that might have kids at home, you know, they don’t care what time you get up in the morning. They don’t care what you do before breakfast. But they care an awful lot what you do between five and 8 p.m.. Yeah, yeah. Those are the Golden Family hours. And I’d say as a parent, you want to just like build fences around those, right? And really give those to your kids. And if you go back and work after 9 p.m., okay, that’s okay. But you know, really build fences around those evening hours, show up to their events, their sporting events, be all there. You know, sometimes I would take red eye flights just so I’d be home for, you know, a soccer game where my kid only got to play 5 minutes. Okay, but I’m going to be there. Yeah, right. That matters. Show up. Yeah.

Henry Kaestner: You mentioned mentorship as one of the things that you mentioned, of course, in the juggling act. And last time I saw you a couple of years ago, right before COVID, you’re talking about the fact that you’re still involved in mentorship. You know, I would imagine that the line of people want to be mentored by Pat Gelsinger, thousands long. But you still practice that. And do you still talk to a mentor?

Pat Gelsinger: I just spoke to Steve this morning. And, you know, last year was a very hard year on this subject for me because I had really five significant male influences that really influenced my life. You know, one was my dad. He passed away September 4th of last year. One was Andy Grove. You know, we just passed the sixth year of his passing. One was Luis Palau. Right. And, you know, he passed away just over a year ago. Another was Bryce Jessup from Texas.

Henry Kaestner: Of course.

Pat Gelsinger: He was another and he passed away a little bit over a year ago. So all of a sudden, you know, except for Steve, all of my yeah, he feels like I’m the old guy all of a sudden. And that was a rather startling experience. So my dad passed away last year and Steve was going through a major heart surgery and at the time, somewhat like yours and yours, all that’s happening, it’s sort of like, Wow, I’ve lost my mentors, but thank God, Steve still healthy and may I have to add one to my mentor list, but it’s really important, you know, and he’ll ask me hard questions regularly, you know, like, how is Linda doing? You know, how are you in her life? And are you continuing to be that person that is working with God to make her all that she was meant to be? And so holding me accountable to that, in addition to being a good advisor on some of my work trade offs. And, you know, that trusted voice, that speaking into your life. So, you know, I would be saying to all of the listeners here, if you don’t have good mentors, then you’re not serious about being everything that God intended you to be.

Henry Kaestner: So if I remember from our past conversation, it’s not just that you have these older people in your life that you occasionally talk to. There’s a discipline, a regimented discipline. Do it to How often do you speak to Steve and what would you recommend to folks that are establishing that relationship either with a mentee or with a mentor?

Pat Gelsinger: Yeah, Steve and I speak every Friday morning, 6 a.m. and obviously schedule and stuff like that. So we probably end up about twice a month, but we’ve been doing that for over 20 years.

Henry Kaestner: Wow. That’s awesome. Okay. You mentioned Bryce Jessop, and I want to switch conversation a little bit to philanthropy and giving and being actively involved in your community. So you’re CEO of Intel, you’ve got four kids, you’ve got eight grandkids. You get a lot of stuff going on. You would be forgiven if you just decided to just kind of write checks and be, you know, they’re going to get somebody else to do that. And yet you’ve gotten really, really involved in the community. So talk to us about TBC. Talk to us about this calling to an area and the leadership you provide not just to Intel, what you do so well, but the vision that you’ve provided to other Christian leaders in the Bay Area. Yeah.

Pat Gelsinger: Your overall backing up just slightly handling know Linda and I made a commitment very early in our marriage that we were going to give an increasing percentage of our gross income to philanthropy every year. Right. So that started with the tithe that 10%. And well, now we’re at about 50%, so about 50% of our gross income. So it started about 10% of nothing know now it’s 50% of a lot. Right, that we’re giving every year to charity. So, you know, first, I would challenge all the entrepreneurs, you know, build a lifestyle of generosity. Right. And hey, I am really excited about the cool things that we’re doing at Intel. But if you really want to hear me get passionate, let me talk to you about what’s going on at my philanthropies. Yeah, because those are really eternally life changing. And like one of them, Linda’s on the board of now. She’s going to Africa, to Kenya to invest in that. We have, you know, now the largest church planting organization that we helped start. So we’re the largest in the world with stadia. You know, we helped to start that, you know, been super involved with the Palau also forever. Yeah. We just had dinner with John Jackson, the president of William Jessup, this week with them. And, you know, these philanthropy investments can be the most fulfilling aspects of your life, and particularly as entrepreneurs, how you want to create success, you want to create wealth, but what do you want to do with that wealth? Right. If you start pouring it into ministries that truly become eternally shaping for humanity, okay. That can really release a lot of enthusiasm, energy, you know, passion. And ultimately, that’s what God would call us to do with our wealth and capabilities. Now with TBC, obviously, when we came back to the Bay area.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us about what TBC is.

Pat Gelsinger: Yeah. TBC transforming the bay with Christ and Melinda and I moved back to the bay. It was funny because she was not excited about coming back to the Bay Area. I say, you know, we’re living in Boston, enjoying ourself there with the […]. And she sort of scratched her claws across the nation. She came back to the Bay Area is like, I want to go back to the bay. Right. You know, there’s sort of crazy there. And then it was we came back, God brought one, two, three of our kids to the Bay Area and all eight of the grandkids, so were like, okay, he bless her decision to come back here. She’s thrilled now with that. But I also felt like when I became CEO of VMware that God was calling me to use this position of leadership in a much more influential way. And out of that came bringing together of business leaders that were Christians with the key faith leaders of the Bay Area to start a movement to truly transform the Bay Area with Christ. TBC And that now has been in operation for eight years now and really is about networking the churches of the Bay Area. It’s about, you know, helping them to be engaged in ministry in the Bay Area and ultimately multiplying the churches of the Bay Area. So we call it Unify, Amplify and multiply, right? The impact of Christ in the Bay Area and the Bay Area know, as I’ve said, it’s the richest area on earth, one of the most influential areas on Earth. It’s also one of the least philanthropic. Areas on earth and one of the least faith areas on Earth. Wow. That’s pretty hard soil. That’s my mission field. Right. You know, I get excited that, hey, you know, Christ shows up in the Bay Area. Yeah. He can show up anywhere physical, show up here in a powerful way, particularly coming off of COVID. I think the role of TBC in the Bay Area is maybe the most unique and impactful that it’s been since we started the effort eight years ago. The church is looking for, Hey, how do I get my footing again on the other side of COVID? So truly thrilling to see the momentum of it. It’s alive and well and the church in the Bay Area is alive and very well.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed it is. I can attest to that. So and encouragement that we’d have to all of you that are listening to this is what does it look like for you to be thoughtful and how God might have you love on folks where you’re planning, wherever the town, the village, the city, the region is, as it would, I think, encourage and challenge you as that. If you can do something like that in a kind of a bigger area like this with 54 different towns, you can think about doing it in your backyard as well as you bring together people in this network and say it again. It’s unify, amplify and multiply in your town. I’m so grateful for a time I can’t let you go before I just kind of throw out this kind of a grab bag one for you and you can answer any way you want to an audience of Faith driven entrepreneurs they’re trying to understand How do I know God more fully through my work? How do I do my work with excellence, how to lead my family? But gosh, how do I just make sure that I don’t lose my faith in the midst of this? All the things that are going on, anything that you have as an encouragement or a warning admonition, anything.

Pat Gelsinger: And you’re clearly your work can become so consuming. You’re, you know, in particularly you’re a couple of years into this entrepreneurial journey, you know, maybe you’re succeeding, maybe not, you know, you’re just pouring yourself into it because you’ve given so much of your life and passion to it. And I ask you all the question, are you still putting God on the throne every day? And, you know, if the answer to that is no, then what are you going to do to put God on the throne every single day? Every single morning? You know, where you in devotion, right? You know, are you really honoring him with the day? And, you know, some days, hey, he might stay on the throne till about 8:02. Okay, well, tomorrow we’re working on keeping God in the throne till 8:03, right? Yeah. I mean, stuff happens here, but are you putting him on the throne daily? Are you in fellowship with him or are you in regular worship in church? Do you have mentors who are keeping you accountable to the relationship and position that you would want God to have in your life? You know that iron sharpening iron. Okay, how is your devotion time going? However, you know people who are really to challenge, do each one of you have those kind of people that are challenging you and you’re going to screw up, you’re going to fail and so on. But then also seeing that the most important thing you do as a leader is to be a great leader, right? You know, make your company successful. You know, that is the most God honoring thing that you can do, right? You’re not doing work instead of faith. You’re doing faith through your work, right. In the workplace. And the most God honoring thing you can do is do that with excellence. And every day that you show up into the workplace, do it with absolute excellence. And then finally, it would be that as a leader and particularly now as a public company leader as well, I mean, I am thrilled that I get to speak through today 121,000 people at Intel. Right. You know, I get to make their lives better every day. You know, I get to help them create wealth for their families, improve the communities that they’re in, you know, demonstrate through, you know, our benefits, through our foundation and philanthropies that we do as a company, that I want to unleash their passions into their communities and to what’s most important to them. I want to create a workplace that they truly are thrilled with so I can be my full self when I show up at Intel and as a leader, as a CEO, that’s what you get to do each day. You know what could be more thrilling than to say I’m positively impacting 121,000 lives on a daily basis? Wow. You know, but then I also get to say through what we do at Intel, you know that we are here improving the lives of every human on the planet through the power of technology.

Henry Kaestner: I was going to suggest that if you didn’t. Yes.

Pat Gelsinger: You know, it’s just so cool. It’s just you know, and I you know, I helped to create USB, I helped to create wi fi. I helped to create the personal computer. I helped to create the cloud. Okay. You know, we’re now at 60% of humans are connected to the Internet. By 2030, that’ll be 90%. Wow. Yeah. I’m going to touch the lives of every human on the planet and make their lives better. Right. You know, we’re going to educate, right? And education, the best way to lift people out of extreme poverty is. Yeah, that’s the stuff we got to do because technology. And you’re impacting the world. And what can be more thrilling than a Christian to say, that’s right, I’m improving the lives of every human on the planet.

Henry Kaestner: It’s really awesome. It’s really awesome. Pat, I’m so grateful for your time, for your leadership, for your friendship, for your encouragement in the Bay Area and beyond. On behalf of our audience. Thank you very much.

Pat Gelsinger: Thank you, Henry.

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Today on the podcast, we are joined by Henry Kaestner, co-founder of Sovereign’s Capital and Faith Driven Investor, and Ron Blue, founder and president of Ronald Blue Co. Our conversation focuses on the recently released book “Faith Driven Investing: Every Investment Has an Impact. What’s Yours?” This global movement is all about investing in human flourishing and driving capital into initiatives that stand for something significant. Put the collective words in the palm of your hands. If you haven’t downloaded the book yet, click here. Get a free copy if you’re one of the first 200 to register now for a Faith Driven Investor Foundation Group launching in January 2023. 

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. We have a very special episode for you today. This is John Coleman and I am joined by two legends of the faith driven investing movement. Ron Blue is here with us today as well as Henry Kaestner. And we’re celebrating the launch of the Faith Driven Investor book, which has come out now and is available over electronic copy. It’s launching soon in hard copy. And we’re just so pleased that the book is out there that so many people have been able to tell their stories and that both Ron and Henry can talk to us about the launch today. Those of you who are listeners of Faith Driven podcast generally will know my business partner, Henry Kaestner. Henry, co-founded Sovereign’s Capital. He co-founded Bandwidth, co-founded Faith Driven Investor and Faith Driven Entrepreneur, and has really been an encouragement to so many of us. He’s one of the reasons I got into this industry and has helped so many others get activated. And of course, Ron Blue has been at the center of some of the most important institutions in the faith driven investing world. The founder of Ronald Blue Trust, one of the founders of the National Christian Foundation of Kingdom Advisors, and such a counselor to so many other folks. And so we’re really privileged to have both of you join today. Thank you for coming on.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you, John. I think that’s if he call it a legend alongside Ron Blue is very deserving of a chuckle. I’m anything but that, but Ron is indeed that. And so it’s a great honor to be on this episode, to talk about the book. And then for somebody like Ron Blue to spend time with us, both with the book and on today’s podcast is a great honor.

Ron Blue: Well, you’re very kind, but you let me tell the truth. So thank you. I appreciate that. And the reason you become a legend is you don’t have a long time. I’m 80 years old. So have you just said this ten years ago? I wouldn’t be a legend, but today I am maybe.

John Coleman: Well, thank you both for being here. And maybe just to kick off Henry, I know this is the second book in a series of books on Faith Driven. The first was Faith Driven Entrepreneur. Maybe just to start with, what made you want to try and pull together folks around a Faith Driven Investor book and tell us what your hope is for the book?

Henry Kaestner: We really enjoyed the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book that we put together, and one of the things that was great about it was that I did get an opportunity to share a bit about the way that God had worked through bandwidth, through David and I. But we also had J.D. Greer write some of the chapters and Chip Ingram, write some of the chapters, and Lecrae wrote the foreword, and it was a great joy to work on this is a team of four and I wanted to double down on that. I thought as we look at something like faith driven investing with the complexity that’s involved in stewarding the resources that God has entrust us with across market return investments, concessionary return investments or patient capital. And then on the third end of the spectrum, of course, philanthropy and giving, there’s a lot there is also a lot of history there. And if we want to be able to tell the story the right way and I still think that there’s so much more of the story to be taught, but if we wanted to be able to approach it the right way, it would be most beneficial for the movement and for our readers if they could hear lots of different perspectives from people who are really experts in the space. And some of those people are experts in the world of finance and investing. Ron Blue Of course, being a great example and others like Finny Kuruvilla and it will be McKinsey, Cathie Wood, Will Thomas, Ofosu Jumo, just the list goes on and we’ve got I guess maybe 15 people worked on this project, but also people like Tim Keller and Andy Crouch, who ostensibly when you look at it, you want to think of them as being finance experts, and yet they are experts in culture and identity, spiritual formation and discipleship. And so we wanted to get their voices into a really important project.

John Coleman: That’s fantastic. Henry And maybe dive into that a little bit deeper, because I think as you approach the book, you note that this is not just about sin screens, although that may be okay. It’s not just about negative screens. This is about a more comprehensive look at what it means to invest with faith aligned values. What does that mean for you and why is this a different contribution to the literature on this subject?

Henry Kaestner: Great question. So I think it is core of the book and the core of all of our lives is this desire to know God and enjoy him forever. And what we wanted to convey in the book is a lot of practical advice about how we might go about doing that with the investments that God has entrusted us with. But to start that off on this formation of the two principles that really guide our Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor movement, which is number one, is to receive the gift of the gospel, a new and even deeper level to be reminded of the God who loves us so much that sent His son at great cost to reconcile us to him and allow us to steep in that where we are as disciples, but then also where God has us in the marketplace as entrepreneurs and investors. And then to accept the invitation. To participate in the work that God is doing in his kingdom, to have a different sense of what God might have in store for us and His Kingdom as it is brought about on Earth, as it is in Heaven under His power for His glory, and just the joy that comes along with that. So we know that there’s great utility in having practical advice and wisdom, but we wanted to steep it again. A new in a gospel and kingdom message and then to build off of that with some concepts of, okay, so how do you bridge the discipleship, the gospel through to markets? Well, how do we think differently about risk? How in a world in which there’s been some great work done on making sure that we know about the products we invest in and how to avoid investing in so-called sin stocks, things like gambling and adult entertainment, etc. But how are we known for what we’re for? How can we have our investing that reflects the image of the Creator? God, how do we redefine return? What does that look like? How do we find beauty in broken things? How do we, as I said before, think differently about risk? How do we do it in community? God create us in community. The temptation, especially with wealth, is that wealth isolates. How can we invest well in a way that rewards those we invest in in ourselves and community? How do we think about partnerships and then really looking at this concept of point from one pocket? And I mentioned this before, we want to be able to look at investing in this newer, holistic level, which is, okay, we have these financial resources that God has entrusted us with. How might He have us deploy those assets to participate in the work he’s doing, but then to deploy them with market rate return when it’s called for it, when the opportunity or the cause that we see calls for market rate return, because that’s oftentimes the best way to be able to deploy capital. Sometimes it’s patient or concessionary. And then let’s bring giving and philanthropy into the equation as we’re really investing not just for financial return for ourselves, but like in the parable of sowers, we’re investing for eternity here. And so I think that when we get up to heaven, it’s not going to necessarily be this key distinction of what our investment portfolios did or what our philanthropic portfolios did, but just holistically, how do we deploy capital? So how can we look at that? And that’s one of the reasons why we have so many authors, because that’s a complicated question and dynamic. We wanted lots of people to speak into that.

John Coleman: Ron, I want to turn to you, if that’s okay. I mean, you’ve thought as deeply and as long about faith driven investing is probably anyone on the planet. Maybe you could just reflect on some of what Henry said and your own understanding what the Scripture tells us about investing and what our calling as investors is with relation to our faith.

Ron Blue: Well, Henry just used a word that I wrote down because I didn’t want to miss it. And that was think. Okay. We think differently as believers than those who aren’t, because our thinking is Holy Spirit driven, God’s word as our source. And so we think differently. And I like to illustrate faith based investing and faith based finances. And when I speak and I hold up the Wall Street Journal and I said, Now here’s the best of the best that comes out on a daily basis. But when I look at it and I say now, however, the date on this is April 20, 2021. Now. How relevant is it today? And the answer is, it may be there may be some things that are relevant, but I’ve got to read this every day, and it may or may not be relevant for some length of time. And then I hold my Bible and I say, this was written 3000 years ago, and it never changes. And I, I take the Wall Street Journal then, and I put it inside the Bible, and I say, this is faith based finances. And faith based investing is applying God’s wisdom to the best of the professional world. And it looks different when you make wisdom based decisions. You need the knowledge. No question about that. But that alone will not necessarily give you the right thinking on investments. And you know what’s really interesting Colossians 2 versus two and three, say for in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Isn’t that interesting? That is my answer to what is faith based investing. It is applying God’s wisdom to the Holy Spirit and His Word to the best that there could possibly be out there in the professional world. So I look at a guy like Henry who’s been incredibly successful in the investing world. Now, a lot of people have been really, really good in the investing world. And I think if any, you know, one of the brightest guys that any of us would ever want to meet or Jerry Bowyer or Bob Dole or a lot of the people that are out there are the best of the best. But you know that they begin their day talking to the Lord. And God then can work through them, through the day. And I know I’ve experienced and I’m sure you have to, John and Henry, but I’ve gone into a meeting with someone and I prayed for wisdom. And I go in there and something happens. I’ll ask a question that I did not plan on asking or make a comment that I did not plan on making. And I’ll say, Wow, God was at work. And I’ve walked out. And I said, That was one of the best questions I’ve ever asked. And I knew it didn’t come from me. It wasn’t mine. So that to me is the combining of the wisdom and the knowledge. So I’m combining two languages into one and making my decisions on that basis. That’s the way I would think about it. The other thing I would think about, Henry said something else about eternity, and I was asked a question by a really successful investment guy a couple of weeks ago, and he said, I’m getting ready to have a meeting tomorrow with a client. And he’s really concerned about this economy. And this morning at coffee, I was asked by somebody, what’s the stock market going to do? You’re a financial expert. And I said, Well, let me answer it this way. I said, Some of my friends think it’s going to go up. Some of my friends think it’s going to go down. And I’m for my friends. So we don’t know, of course. But anyway, I was answering this question about how do I talk to this person? And I say, What is your client a believer? And he said, Yes. And I said, okay. Number one, I would ask him, So have you sold? And if the answer is no, and then I say, Well, then you haven’t lost any money yet. And that’s where people make a mistake. They tend to think it’s kind of like buying a house. Markets go up, markets go down. And that and I said, secondly, if you’ve planned well, you’ve planned for the ups and downs. I mean, that’s a part of the economy. And we know that we live in a fallen world and markets are going to go down. I’ve lived 80 years. I’ve seen a lot of markets, a lot of crashes. But then the third thing that I say, and it’s coming back to what Henry said in terms of eternity, I said to this adviser, I said, you know, if the person believes that God owns it all, then he hasn’t lost anything yet. Yeah, it’s God’s. Yeah. And God has a right. And it changes my perspective if I think of it that way. I think God is I’m doing this, I’m investing. And you said it already that God entrusted me with these resources and they are going to go up and go down in terms of the investments that I do. They don’t always go up. And if he owns it, I can’t lose it.

Henry Kaestner: Yes. One thing I want to add in and, John, that I should have mentioned before about the book, because this is so important, because it underpins the movement, is that while in the book you’ll see great examples about public markets investing in private investing and real estate investing, etc.. What undergirds all of this is the concept of hard posture, which is this movement is not meant to be prescriptive or presumptuous. It’s an invitation for us all to get down on our knees with our spouses or with our investment committees and ask God how we might steward the capital that He has entrusted us with. It’s an opportunity to commune with the living God, and that’s something that’s really, really powerful. And so it’s not meant to be this big yoke around. It’s like, Oh my goodness, guys, give me this money. And it is just if I make this mistake. No, no, no, no. God wants us to be faithful and obedient. Yes. But he’s invited us into something greater, which is just being with him in our 9 to 5 job to include the money that we invest. And it’s a beautiful thing, but it’s not meant to be a negative thing. Like, don’t do this, don’t do that. Or if you don’t invest this way, it’s going to be bad. Or, you know, you can get down on your knees with your spouse. And the answer may be from God to invest in solar farms in Nevada desert. Somebody else may get down on their knees and the answer may be to invest in an emerging market. It’s in developing entrepreneurs. There is somebody else. Real estate. There’s no answer other than to seek God in his wisdom.

John Coleman: When did this first hit home for you, Henry? With regards to both entrepreneurship and investing, I know it’s been some time, but do you remember that moment where this hit home for you?

Henry Kaestner: Well, when I was running bandwidth with David, I had a verse. It was printed on my computer to remind me not to. Every hour, check out the latest going on in the sports world at the espn.com, which was effectively. To whom much is given. Much is expected. And effectively, if you don’t deliver, you’re going to be beaten with many blows. It was meant to keep me focused, and there is a performance mentality that I had about my job and then the investments I had, which is I’m going to be held accountable at the end of time about all the things I thought and did. And my view of God was so much different than it is now. It was an incomplete and I think a false version of God. Now, while all those things are in Scripture, the totality of Scripture is an invitation to the life that is fully life. And the fact that we are actually participants in what we pray for every day, that God’s kingdom would come about on Earth as is in Heaven. And I can’t remember exactly when it happened, but there is a transition from me believing that I was earning my own salvation to one where I finally realized I couldn’t I couldn’t do it, couldn’t do it under my own power. And it brought me deeper into the gospel. And actually a big pivotal point for me both in my entrepreneurship and my investing, is when I met a really good friend of mine and Ron’s when I was 38. So I came to faith at 28. At 38, I met this guy named Daryl Heald. Kimberly and I were given maybe 20% at the time, Bandwith was doing well, given 20%. I thought there’s probably a special place in heaven for the double tithe. I don’t know what we’re getting, but it’s coming to us. Right. And he asked me this question that sent me reeling, which is. Henry, why do you give. Why do you give? And I don’t know what my answer was at the time, and he doesn’t either. We’ve become great friends, but it’s probably theologically seem like something along the lines of, I don’t want to pay it forward. I don’t even know. But it seemed that everything that happened in my scripture reading over the next six months, it had to do something with money. Wow. Even the ones that even the passages that didn’t. So things like God taken five loaves and two fish from that boy and feeding 5000. And I realized that he had all of that boy’s heart, but he had 20% of mine. Ron mentioned something a little bit ago about the concept of God owning it all. When I came to understand that and I came to understand he actually didn’t need me to advance his kingdom, but he invited me into it is a gift and it’s not a burden, but it’s an invitation to something much bigger. It completely changed my world and gave me a sense of a God who loves me and wants something better for me in my vocation and in my investments. And a countercultural view as I came to understand that God owned it all in a way that freed me up. To have more joy is just you can only see that in God’s economy. So that’s what it happened for me. Thanks for asking.

John Coleman: And this holds a special place for me because, you know, when I came to the industries, God led me into faith driven investing. But he used a guy named Henry Kaestner and another guy named Luke Roush who really exposed me to this. And it’s exactly that authenticity and passion, I think, Henry, that were first attracted to me. I want to turn back to Ron momentarily. But Henry, what do you hope people reading this book leave with? What are the kind of two or three things that you hope as people read this book that they really come away with?

Henry Kaestner: Just this deeper realization of the God who loves them and just an invitation to participate in the work he’s doing in the world that will give them more, more joy. And in doing it and community being a part of the story that he is working in our backyards, across real estate, across private equity, public equity, and then also overseas. He’s got something beautiful in store for us and the gifts that he’s asked us to store and he’s given them to us because he wants them to be a tool to bring us closer to him. And if people can come away from this with a different view and a fuller view of the loving God, that’s a win. If people can come away from this and do nothing other than getting down on their knees again and just say, God, I now I think I understand the financial assets you’ve entrusted with me more. Direct my steps. Help me to understand. That’s the big win.

John Coleman: That’s a good word. And I know we’ve all talked about how we can’t earn our way to heaven, but I have heard that you can get a leg up if you leave a five star review on Amazon or your favorite review site or purchase more than ten copies. And I have heard that that makes a difference. Correct me if I’m wrong. And so, Ron, we’ve heard from Henry what he hopes people take away from the book is you think about your own contribution, which was, as you touched on earlier, being attuned to God’s word in the course of investing. Or if you’re in financial life, what is it that you hope people really take from your contribution to the book?

Ron Blue: Well, I think that the most significant question we referred to it a couple of times, but that is who owns it. You know, and until you answer that question, you’re not a steward. And when you answer that question, it changes everything. Because money transcends all of life. So if we just look at money being investments are being how I spend my money, if God owns it all, my decision making is different. And I believe that, you know, your checkbook reveals your spirituality. It is one objective measurement of spirituality. So what I would hope people take away from it is that God owns it all and He gives you all the wisdom you need when you need it to think right about what you’re doing, be in investing or whatever. So that question I guess the second question, John, would be Hebrews 13:5. I used to say this until you set a finish line. You’ll never stop accumulating. There’s nothing wrong with accumulating, but accumulating for what? And then when you have a finish line, it allows you to go beyond even in your giving. We helped a lot of people in our firm give away, a lot of money, but they had to set a finish line first and then they understood that the rest of it was really excess. And it’s okay to have it. It’s okay to have wealth. There’s nothing wrong with that. But the people who give major amounts away have set a finish line. And I come back to the question, how much is enough? And the answers in the Bible, Hebrews 13:5. It says, Be content with what you have. And so I believe this, that if if you’re not content with what you have, you’ll never be content with what you don’t have yet. And I think we fight a real battle today against greed because it is so prevalent in this affluent society that we live in. So I would like for people to come away asking the right question, because you don’t ask the right question. You never get the right answer. Who owns it? How much is enough? Are you content? That would be my hope.

John Coleman: Ron, one of the things we’ve heard from Henry and from so many others is how you’ve inspired them in the area of faith driven investing, of managing your capital in a way that’s aligned with faith as you think about your own career in life. Who have you looked to as an inspiration in that world of people? Obviously, the Scripture very much so. But are there people who have really encouraged you on that path, or are there people you look to today who you think are innovating and are really helping us to move this idea of faith driven financial management or investing forward?

Ron Blue: Well, yes, kind of in the past and in the future, I was really, really fortunate, I think, in that when I became a believer in 1974, I was in a discipleship group. Within a week, and discipleship, especially one on one discipleship is pretty rare today. And that’s really unfortunate because we need that accountability. We need that direction. You know, the guy that was discipling me, he and I were getting on an elevator, a five story building, and we stepped on the elevator and the doors closed. The elevator was full. And he said, Ron, tell me what you think of Jesus Christ. And, you know, I muttered and stuttered and so forth. And we got off on the fifth floor and he said, I wanted to just to teach you the value of a 10 seconds testimony.

John Coleman: Wow.

Ron Blue: I’ve never forgotten that, of course. And that was 50 years ago, probably now. And he stayed a mentor of mine throughout his life. He died not too long ago. In fact, the three people that impacted me the most, he was one. Dr. Howard Hendricks from Dallas Seminary, was a person in his generation who may have done about as much for the kingdom as anybody. But I called Hendricks all the time. He had the ability to take a concept or a thought and put an end to saying, for example, he said, You don’t know whether you’ve been a successful parent, until your children have raised their children. Well, that gives you a whole different perspective on raising kids. He also said, never forget it. He said, You know, if you want to find out how important you are, you should put your fist in a bucket of water, take it out and see what kind of impression you left. He had the ability to say things like that. And so I quote Hendricks a lot when I speak, and he meant a lot to me. And then the third person that had a real impact in my life was Dr. Bill Bright, the founder of Campus Crusade. I was on the Campus Crusade board for about 25 years, and I stayed on that board because he gave me eight days a year ago, right? And Bill was a man of faith. Incredible faith. If there was ever a problem, I call him one time. And I said, I got a real problem, Bill. I need some help. And I told him of my problems and he said, Wow, what an opportunity to trust God. And that was. Bill. He was famous for saying that because that was his life and the way he lived his life. So Dr. Bright taught me a lot about faith. He taught me a lot about leadership. He taught me a lot about vision. There is no greater visionary. He taught me a lot about leadership. He let people lead. You know, I think of the ministries that came out of Campus Crusade with the Jesus film and athletes in action and family life radio and on and on and on and on. 50,000 staff around the world. It was such a privilege to have a world perspective and to be in the shadow of such a man of faith. So I’ve been a very, very blessed man, John. You’ve gotten to know a lot of leaders and see those that succeeded and seen those that failed. And I tell you, quite frankly, my concern right now is that we’ve in the Christian world, we’ve become somewhat of a celebrity culture. And that’s scary because that is really hard to handle. Celebrity. I wouldn’t consider myself a celebrity, but I’ve done a lot of speaking and I just I discipline myself when anybody complimented me on a speech or thought or whatever. I never denied it. But in my heart I said, thank you, God, because God did. And I just am concerned that I would become a celebrity culture in the Christian world. And so the humble man of faith is rare. Now, frankly, I consider Henry to be one of those guys and a guy like Bob Dole that I know really well in the investment world, same thing. I don’t know much more humble man than Bob. So there are examples out there, hugely successful people who have humility and we need it. It scares me when people become famous. Whether they can handle it or not.

John Coleman: When we’ve seen so many instances where that’s gone wrong recently and you’re right. You know, it feels to me there’s a careful balance to strike in the sense that God does raise up men and women to do his work, to do great things. He’s done that since biblical times. At the same time, with that profile comes risks, right? With the elevation comes risk. And how people manage that with humility is such an important part of their legacy because it’s so easy for that to go wrong. And you’re right, it does seem to me that humility is the key component that keeps people from going off track, right? The ability to credit credit where it’s due to know that it’s not about them and to constantly remind themselves that they’re on a mission and that that mission is not their own advancement, it’s not their own celebrity. And to never become too enamored with that, because we know that’s all ephemeral. Right. And that we’re really serving something much higher.

Ron Blue: Well, and frankly, in the faith driven investing world. You’ve got a real opportunity there to help people understand. I would say the perspective of wealth and why God gives you wealth. And I believe he gives you a wealth to use. Maybe it’s giving and maybe it’s investing. From a spiritual standpoint, there’s no difference because God owns it all. Okay, so you’re using his resources to accomplish his purposes and people respect those that are experts in the investment world. So there’s an authority there that has been given to Faith Driven Investor and Faith driven entrepreneurs and needs to be handled with terrific humility because it’s a gift. Okay. It is a gift.

John Coleman: That’s right.

Ron Blue: I consider myself one of the most blessed men in the world because I know so many really good people and I’ve seen so many faithful people. So I’m pleased that you considered me to write a part of the book and be a part of what you’re doing.

John Coleman: One that’s Ron. I can say this because I am not a contributor to the book. It is an exceptional group of people. And and you’re right. I mean, there are so many really bright voices in the space right now. There are a number of incredibly smart, incredibly capable, but also incredibly humble people like Kathy, like Finney, like yourself, like Rob, like my partners, Luke and Henry, who I think are really advancing this work in a meaningful way and also avoiding many of the trappings that you described. And I know that we all are incredibly grateful that you chose to be a part of the book, but much more importantly than that, that you’ve chosen to build a career in this area and that you’ve chosen to really advance the ball through Ronald Blue Trust, through NCF, through Kingdom Advisors, through your other efforts in a way that’s inspired so many others. So we’re really grateful to have you on today, Ron, to talk about this.

Ron Blue: I consider it a privilege. John, thanks for asking me.

John Coleman: And I would be remiss if I didn’t end the show by just reiterating the Faith Driven Investing book is out now, an electronic copy. There will be hard copies available in January of 2023. It’s from Tyndale and if you go to Faith Driven Investor dot org right now and register for one of the Faith Driven Investor Foundation groups launching in January. If you’re one of the first 200, you will get a free copy of the book. So there is a great deal if you’re going to do that. We encourage everybody to check it out. There are wonderful contributions by Ron and Henry and others, and we’re so grateful to you for listening to us today. Thank you.

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Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman and I am very privileged today to be joined by the State Treasurer of Kentucky, Allison Ball. Treasurer Ball has had a remarkable career dating back to when she was a kid and had a startup and has long lived in financial markets and she has held a number of posts over time, including as the youngest statewide officer in her state for a period of time, the first statewide officer to give birth while in office, I think at one point, which we can dig into and a number of other things. So we’re very privileged to have Allison joining us today. Allison, thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Allison Ball: John Thank you. But I’ll even make this sound even a little bit cooler. I was the youngest woman in the country to serve in a statewide elected office, and I was that for about three years. It’s one of those positions, you know, you’re not going to hold forever. Someone else at some point will be younger than you. But for about three years, I was the youngest woman in the country to hold a statewide elected office.

John Coleman: That is unreal. And when was that? When did you come to statewide elected office?

Allison Ball: So I got elected. I ran in 15, sworn in in 16. So a few years back, but not real long ago. And like I said, for three years I was the youngest one. There are a few younger now, not very many. There was a woman in Missouri who came in a little bit younger than me. And then there was a woman in Michigan who was like three months younger than I am. So I’m still in the young stage when it comes to statewide elected officials.

John Coleman: That’s amazing, Allison. And what a cool witness to other people, too, just to encourage other women in their offices, other people, I mean, to be able to take up big responsibilities early.

Allison Ball: Thank you. I hope so.

John Coleman: Well, where I want to start today, you know, Allison, a lot of folks just won’t be familiar with what a state treasurer does. And obviously, you’ve done the role for some time now. Talk us through what a state treasurer does. How do you spend your day and what are you focused on?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, I’ll talk to you about my office, because there’s a saying among state treasurers, and it’s kind of funny to think that we have a saying, but we do. And the saying is, if you’ve seen one State Treasurer’s office, you’ve seen one State Treasurer’s office, it’s because there’s a lot of variety. They all have similarities, obviously they all touch on money, most of them do something with investments. So there’s just a variety of ways that those skills are used in Kentucky. I always describe myself as the watchdog of taxpayer dollars, and I’m actually an attorney by background. So I like to emphasize that part because I say that whatever comes out of my office is in line with the Constitution, in line with the law that it’s correct. So it’s not just a bookkeeping role. It actually has an aggressive oversight role as well. So in the background of everything I do, I’m that watchdog of taxpayer dollars. Everything I do deals with money in some way. I deal with our banking relationship. I deal with the IRS on the point person for those entities. And I also do deal with our investments. I sit on our teachers retirement system. It is a board. Most of these are actually run by boards. I chair the State Investment Commission, which does our cash management or debt management, a variety of other things like that. And I’ve been a big proponent of financial literacy, so I brought that to this office that did not exist prior to me being Treasurer. And then one of my favorite things to talk about, I’m going to mention this because this is true in a lot of treasurers offices. If you know this, you want to check this in your own state. I’m in charge of what’s called unclaimed property in Kentucky, and it’s basically a statewide lost and found. Most states have these most states have them run by the treasurer’s office. This is worth you checking on whoever is listening to this. You may have some money that you don’t know about and it is a great thing to talk about it. Thanksgiving her parties is a neat way to be able to make yourself memorable to people because you may find somebody some money. So we actually are part of a national database called Missing Money.com. You can go to our website and see if you got Kentucky money, but if you check missing money.com, that’s a bunch of states put together and you can see if you’ve lost money in Florida or your home state or wherever. And my job is to get people their property back. It’s a privilege to do it. I love doing it. I’m a big believer in property rights. Some states are more interested in keeping that money because they can utilize it while it’s in the state coffers. But it’s been my guidance. My motivation is that I’ve always tried to get the money back, so I’ve returned more money than any other treasurer in Kentucky history, returned about $146 million. So that’s a fun piece of trivia that a lot of people don’t know about, about Treasurer’s offices. But it’s true for most of them, it’s true for mine. So that’s kind of a gambit, a quick gambit of what I do. There’s a few other things of interest. I run a program called Stable Kentucky, and they’re able accounts, their savings and investment accounts for people with disabilities. And that’s something that I brought on while I was treasurer and and a few other things here and there we can talk about. I’m also a big believer in transparency and I watch the transparency website so people could see where their money is going. Coming from the financial sector, I actually was a bankruptcy attorney before being treasurer. I realized how important it is. You can’t make good financial decisions unless you know where your money’s going. And that’s true at the state level, not just in the individual level or business level. So that was one of the things I pushed for when I came into office. So that’s a quick overview of things that are happening in the Kentucky State Treasury. There’s some similarities in other states, but, you know, that’s what’s happening here.

John Coleman: That’s amazing. I didn’t realize the diversity of things that are going on and I kind of want to talk about all of them. I wish we had four or 5 hours today just to start digging in, you gave us some sense of this with the lost property at $146 million. States are managing a lot more in terms of the banking relationships, financial transactions, pools of assets like the cash. You mentioned retirement plans than people think. I think people just don’t think about the pools of assets that are in their states. Would you mind just giving us a little more detail on that? What are those pools and how big are they and what difference does that make to the residents of your states?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, there are different pools, and of course, they’re in the billions of dollars. And that’s the case all over the country in different states. There are some states, North Carolina is one where their state treasurer is the sole fiduciary of all of their pension systems. So he makes all of the decisions. That’s one end of the spectrum. Everything goes through him. I think even our insurance, if I recall correctly, actually goes for him too. So he has a heavy weight of responsibility on his shoulders. He does a good job, but he’s the one person who’s making those decisions for most of us. We have a team of people. The responsibility is shared. And I’ll tell you, I’ve heard I think it was the 1980s. Once upon a time, a lot of decisions were left to the Treasurer once upon a time, and there was a Treasurer who had figured out how to. This was for the State Investment Commission, so for cash management purposes was actually dividing up among different Kentucky banks and there were some kickbacks involved. So once upon a time they realized that that was probably not a great idea to have one person unless, you’re very confident in that one person. So in Kentucky, that was shifted to a board. So most of my responsibilities, I sit on a board, among others. But most of the time I am the one elected official, so I’m the one who is representing the people as a whole, which I think gives me a pretty powerful voice to represent what we want and just good long term thinking.

John Coleman: And how big? Like the teacher pension plan. What does that look like in Kentucky and how many teachers is that taking care of?

Allison Ball: Sure. So I’ll tell you, one of our great challenges for our teacher retirement system has been we’ve had a very high unfunded liability for a long time. So when I came in office, I knew this was going to be an issue that I was going to have to think a lot about. Right now, it’s about 57% funded, which doesn’t sound great, but actually it’s better than most of the other funds in Kentucky. So that’s our good one. But that’s meant that it’s required some real long term thinking about that particular program. There’s a variety of reasons of why it ended up where it was at. Some of it was political. You had governors and you had members of our state legislature who, instead of wanting to put money into the program, they wanted to use it for things that just had more immediate returns. And that’s always kind of a risk when you’ve got political people involved in things so that they can get more favor and more votes if they’re doing something quickly with money rather than long term. And for the whole time that I’ve been in office, there’s been a much more serious commitment to making sure that the money is that is needed in that program is in there. So that has stem the tide. We’re not bleeding out. Money like that has been going on for decades. It actually was just very unsound for a long time. There really weren’t a lot of actuarial studies done on it, and it was just a quick way to get favor. So they were taking money and just not thinking long term with it. Our state government workers pension, which I actually don’t sit on and I’m running for state auditor right now and the auditor actually has an oversight role for all of our pension systems. So I’m eager to be involved in that. But our state workers is about 15, 17% funded. So that tells you kind of the gamut of where we are. That one has become pretty much a pay as you go. It’s on a much better footing than it was when I got here, because there’s a long term plan and there’s a commitment to make sure the money is there. But that has been in crisis mode for a while, and Kentucky is just going to be a long term commitment to make sure that we’re just careful with it.

John Coleman: That’s amazing. I mean, it is incredible. As you look around the country, there are billions of dollars in these plans. You’re taking care of tens of thousands, often state employees, teachers, folks that people want to support. You know, your normal person out there really wants teachers to have a good retirement. That’s what they signed up for and they want to make sure they’re funded. And yet these pension plans, as you noted, have often been historically at least mismanaged or used for the wrong purposes and therefore been underfunded. One way that people have sought to correct for that is their investment strategies and those. How do you think about investments broadly? I guess in those types of pools of assets? And I know the pools are quite different because you mentioned there’s cash management, which is obviously one thing. These pensions will often have very diversified investment profiles. How do you think about that and what, if any, role as the Treasurer do you play in thinking about those asset allocation strategies to help make sure that the funding increases for those programs?

Allison Ball: Well, one thing that actually is good about the teachers retirement system is that the strategies weren’t bad, so that wasn’t the problem. We’ve actually always gotten pretty good returns. We’re getting good returns now. They’re definitely long term investments. They’re cautious investments. The one for the state employees has had different people at the helm a different time. So strategies have changed quickly from one administration. To another, and that causes problems. Obviously, if you’re talking about long term investments, if you’re changing your strategies, quite often, that takes a toll. And that has there were some efforts on that one to be involved in hedge funds that became very politically unpopular. And the teachers retirement system has actually never invested in hedge funds. And that’s one of those you get what you pay for kind of a thing. But there’s a lot of political disfavor towards that type of an investment. You know, whether rightly or wrongly, people just have an impression of it in the public. And that’s not something the teachers have done. So the teachers, one actually has been pretty good. We get pretty good returns. Definitely think about long term. You know, it is pretty diversified. You know, we do invest in some private equity. So there’s a variety of investments of that program. But I think that what you always have to be careful with is you can’t take great risks with this type of a program. You really have to be in it for the long term. And that’s something that we remind ourselves right now as we’re watching the market behave the way that it’s behaving. You know, we’re in it for the long term. And how are we doing? I’ll tell you one thing that’s interesting about teachers in Kentucky. They live a very long time and we have

John Coleman: Which is good. That’s a good thing.

Allison Ball: Great is great. You know, it’s a fulfilling profession and they make a difference in people’s lives. We have a lot of small towns in Kentucky where teachers have known generations of children and they’re very involved in their communities. So it’s a great way of life. So we have teachers that live a very long time and in Kentucky, you actually only have to be a teacher for 27 years. So if you’ve hit your 27th year while you’re in your forties and you live to be 180, which we actually have, we have teachers that are 108. We actually have quite a few that are over the age of 100. It’s not unusual at all for teachers to live to their eighties and nineties in Kentucky, which is wonderful. But, you know, that makes you realize that you have to take care of their money for a long time and make sure it’s there. So I think we actually send birthday cards to everybody that’s over the age of 100. It’s a way for us to honor them and also keep track of how they’re doing.

John Coleman: That’s it’s amazing. Allison, you know, I want to dig in to one topic that’s been really relevant for states recently and just get your perspective on it. The topic of ESG has come up a lot recently with states. There have been certain states like Texas or West Virginia that have been very vocal because through ESG policies, certain financial institutions have taken negative steps towards industries in states like the oil and gas industry in Texas or coal in West Virginia, etc.. And some of those states have looked unfavorably on that, obviously, and have begun to question whether ESG in their asset management portfolios is good for the residents of their states, at least the way it manifests today and whether it actually helps to achieve investment returns. Talk to me a little bit about that topic as you see it from your perch in Kentucky.

Allison Ball: Sure. Yeah. So from the Kentucky state treasuries perspective, I first began to hear about ESG. I know I’m talking to an audience that’s well familiar to you all know what this is and you encounter it all the time. I usually have to give kind of a rundown of what it means, but I remember when I first got in office and I started going to meetings for state treasurers, and we have a lot of public finance people that come in and talk to us. And I remember it kind of seemed academic, it seemed novel, it seemed like something people were trying to sell and they were pushing it as great stewardship. You know, it’s not just about investments anymore. We’re stewarding. We’re thinking about stakeholders. All these things are telling us. And I kind of just brushed it aside, didn’t take it very seriously. And I also thought and I sort of followed the Milton Friedman approach of, you know, we’re about returns and profits. And that’s what my focus is. I’ve always felt like that’s my responsibility. I’m not supposed to do other things. I have this core responsibility of making sure that I’m getting good returns for people that I’m responsible for. So when I first started here about it, I brushed it aside. I remember other treasurers were similar too. I remember having a conversation not that long ago. This may have been in 19 actually, that I was at a meeting and there was another state treasurer was actually pretty respected and dealt a lot with investments and he was saying, Yeah, we’re having another discussion about that. What is it again? I can’t remember the acronym. There’s the letters E something or other. So that was sort of the attitude among state treasurers for a while is that it was just it was a novelty. It was something that was trying to be sold to us. And some people gravitated to it and others didn’t. And treasurers, for the most part, are a pretty conservative bunch. They’re pretty fiscally responsible bunch you know, whether you’re Republican or Democrat, we kind of tend to be that way. So that was sort of the attitude. Well, in the last year or so, I really seen a big push to make it the only game in town. And this has been a warning to me as a Kentuckian. I told you about where our pensions are at 57% funded at about 17% funded. They’re not in the place where we need to play around. You know, you’ve got these older teachers who are 100 plus years old. My job is to make sure that they have the money when they retire for as long as they’re retired. That money is there for them. It’s not my job to play around with those funds. And Kentucky is different from some other places. You mentioned West Virginia. You mentioned Texas. Kentucky is like them that we are a fossil fuel state. I’m from the mountains of eastern Kentucky and from a small town in that Hatfield McCoy area. I’ve got generations of family members who have been coal miners, so coal is near and dear to my heart. I know the value of it. I know the value of it to America. I know the importance of. That kind of cheap energy and oil and gas. You may not realize this is actually big in Kentucky as well, and it’s big in eastern Kentucky, where I’m from. So for me, you know, I hear about this ESG and I start to worry about am I actually thinking about investments in terms of returns? And I actually taking care of this the way I’m supposed to do it. And there’s a double whammy in Kentucky because it affects our economy, because there’s been a big push on the E side, on the environmental side to truly target and eliminate the fossil fuel industry. And a lot of people have been pretty straight up about it. I talk to coal operators often and they tell me that they’re told they won’t be able to get financing because the particular bank that they’re trying to work with, Will maybe they’ve worked with for a long time, doesn’t like coal anymore. And it’s very much an ideology, I think, rather than an investment strategy. I know that people will argue with you and tell you otherwise, but it feels very much like an ideology to me, rather than just the traditional type of investing that we’ve looked at in the past. And I think there’s strong argument. So that’s the way that’s the case. So in Kentucky, it’s something that I’ve been very involved in. We actually got a bill passed last year about the fossil fuel industry that said that if you are you know, if you’re a bank, if you’re any kind of a company, if you’re an asset manager, if you are trying to boycott the fossil fuel industry for trying to eliminate the fossil fuel industry, harm it specifically because of the work that they do, then we’re not going to do business with you as a state. So we got that passed and it’s not going to work with us. We’re not going to work with you. And as far as my fiduciary obligations, this is true of many places. We have a sole interest obligation, meaning, you know, we are investing for the sole interest of returns for those beneficiaries. And then we have another one. We say, Kentucky, that we’re supposed to invest to support our economy and our industry in Kentucky, and that includes fossil fuels. So I actually asked our attorney general recently, given that obligation, if it would even be legal to play around in the ESG world. And I got a resounding answer from the AG’s office that said it would be illegal given that obligation. And I think that’s actually probably pretty true. A lot of other states do. So I would caution if you are in the public finance world, I would caution you before you jump into a lot of ESG stuff because you actually may be breaching your fiduciary duties.

John Coleman: That’s so interesting, Allison. One of the things we say around our firm, the firm I work at, is that all investing is impact investing. It’s just a question what impact you’re having. And this idea, you know, ESG is just one manifestation of particular manifestation of a set of values that you can invest along this idea, for example, that you all can invest in a way that is beneficial to the residents of Kentucky that serves the interests of Kentuckians. That’s an expression of values that may stand in contradistinction to some of the ESG values that is very much aligned with how the resources of your state can support the people of your state. I think people miss that. I think ESG is now become known as the way you express values. And what’s lost in that is it’s just one particular set of values you can express. There are other ways in which you can express your values through your financial capital. And I think that’s one of the encouraging things that’s happened, is people are waking up to that and thinking about the ways in which they can leverage the assets that they have and the influence that they have in a way that really serves the people that they’re intended to serve.

Allison Ball: Yeah, that’s a great point. And, you know, you’re coming from a different world than I am because I’m stewarding the people’s dollars. So I have to be careful in a way, you know. But from a Christian perspective, you were in a wonderful place where you can invest in the people that you’re investing for, in ways that are expressing those values and are consistent with that. And of course, as a state elected official, I have to be mindful of the state as a whole how I do that. But, you know, you’re in a great place where if you want to be supporting things that are consistent with your Christian faith, you have the great ability to do that and more power to you. And for me, I have to be so careful to be doing things the way that the citizens of Kentucky have put me here to do.

John Coleman: And that clarity is a great thing for you because it makes your mandate very clear and it makes the parameters with which you operate very clear. I want to back up I want to circle back to some of the great programs that you just mentioned, because it sounds like you’re very passionate about them. But before we do that, I want to get more of your story. So I read that you are a ninth generation Kentuckian, which seems like a very long time ago, and you just mentioned growing up in eastern Kentucky. Tell me more about your family history there and what that means to you as a public servant in Kentucky.

Allison Ball: Yes. Yes. So like you just said, I’m ninth generation from eastern Kentucky, from the same small county. It’s Floyd County in the mountains, in the coalfields. I actually just lost both of my grandparents. They’ve been with me for my whole life. My papa have just passed away in 95 and my nanny just passed away at 92 and the passed away in the last month. And they’ve just been a tremendous influence to me. I’ve always told people I’m related to about half the counties as my family’s been there so long. We’ve been there since the 1790s, and it’s a wonderful way to feel rooted. You know, I really know where I’m from. There are not many people in the country now, I think, that have that kind of history with the place. You know, I know my family, I know my ancestry. I love Eastern Kentucky. It is a rugged and independent area. It’s not an easy area to live in. You know, there’s hollers where the sun doesn’t shine. There are mountains. It’s I. Isolated. But if you’re from there, you’re probably Scotch Irish. Your family came over at some point in the early 1800s or late 1700s. And if you’ve decided to live that far away, that off the grid back then, you probably have some independent streak to you. And that has been passed on for a long time. So I’m very, very proud of the region that I’m from. I love it. It’s beautiful. It’s a place where it’s in the Bible Belt. So, you know, everybody’s got their own family churches and their own family graveyards. And it’s a beautiful, incredible area. And I’m just so thankful that’s where I’m from. It’s been a wonderful place to be from, so it really makes me just have a deep heart, not just for my region, but also for my state.

John Coleman: That’s great, Allison. You know, it’s interesting to me because I want to get to your path in public service. You actually started very entrepreneurial as well. And I, I read an interesting story that I want to let you tell. But tell me a little bit about your entrepreneurial streak as a young person and how you came to really appreciate the financial world that led you to the path you’re on today.

Allison Ball: Sure. Yeah, I know exactly what you’re referring to. So when I was a kid, my mom and dad really wanted to teach me money management principles and nobody had taught them. I referenced my papa a little while ago. My nanny, both of them grew up in the Great Depression. My papa knew how to stretch a dollar, you know, a thousand ways. He was always wheeling and dealing and selling things that he’d had other people just great at money management. But he never pass that on to my dad. And then my mom, she grew up somewhere else, and she just didn’t really get that from her parents either. So both of my parents, smart people, my dad was working on his Ph.D. when I was born. My mom was a schoolteacher, and they had never learned these money management principles. Obviously smart. My dad has told me that when I was born he had to sell the hubcaps off his car in order to buy diapers for me just because no one had really taught them. So at some point in time, there was this blue collar millionaire that took pity on my dad and took him under his wing and just started teaching my dad money management principles. And his name was Dexter Yager. He was incredible, man. He passed away a few years ago. A huge influence on my whole family. We loved him dearly. My brother is actually named after him. My brothers, Johnathan Dexter. Huge influence. So he started teaching my parents these principles. My mom and dad thought, Well, we got to do this to Allison and we’ve got to pass this on to the next generation. It wasn’t passed on to us. We’ve got to do a better job. So they started giving me an allowance and they gave me $5 a week, $20 a month. And I remember feeling like I was set for life. You know, I had this steady income that just came in and they wanted me to learn to think long term. You know, the goal set to save my money was I was buying my own things that I would be really responsible with. And I wasn’t at all. I would spend it as soon as it came, and as soon as they gave it to me, it was gone. And my parents were watching this for a while and they came to me and they said, Allison, we’ve decided to stop giving you an allowance because this isn’t working. And that the words they used is, Allison, you’re becoming a socialist. So I had a early poli sci lesson as a nine year old when this happened. So they cut off my allowance. They said that, you know, you’re going have to figure out some way to earn some money and we’re not going to give it to you anymore. You’re going to figure this out. So I was very angry about this and I was pouty and I probably had become kind of entitled spoiled at this point because I really felt like that I just just deserved this money. And so after a few months of being pretty pouty, I realized that they were not going to change their mind. And I would have to come up with some way to get some money on my own. So I launched a business. I started Positive Pencils International, so I was thinking a worldwide company, and they were positive pencils. Like I said, they had positive sayings on them. They said, I’m a winner, believe in yourself. You can do it different, like peppy little things. And I sold them for $0.25 each or four for $1. So it was a great deal. And I remember the first week that I sold my pencils, This is pre-social media. So like I had to have face to face conversations with people to get them to buy my pencils. So, you know, I developed a lot of skills through that, you know, some courage to be able to have those kinds of conversations. And I remember after my first week of selling my pencils, I went to everyone I could and I calculated how much I made profit and I made $200 profit by the end of the first week. And that was a huge moment in my life for a lot of reasons. I remember thinking, Oh my goodness, my parents were right. I have so much more money now than I had before, but all of a sudden money had a lot more value to me because I had worked for it. And anything that I want to buy after that point, I would calculate, okay, how many pencils does it take to buy this video game or whatever it was that I wanted? So I actually became very, very careful with my money all through my teenage years. I was pretty stingy. But I also learned to goal set. And, you know, anything that I really wanted to buy, I knew I had the ability to buy it because I could earn it myself. So I became a big believer in entrepreneurialism of the free market of hard work. I actually think that’s one reason why I ran for office early was because I had a business as a kid and I didn’t think to myself, I’ve got to wait till I’m an adult [….] school to be able to do something. I knew I could start doing things now. So a huge lesson for me. It’s foundation of my life. I actually kept my business until I went to college and then I sold it to my younger brother. So it continued for a while and he kept it going and it doesn’t exist anymore. But it was a thriving business for a long time. Huge lesson for me and also a reason why I believe in financial literacy. I know how important that was for me as a kid to learn that lesson, so I want to pass that on.

John Coleman: That’s amazing. Did your brother get a pretty good deal on the business or did you negotiate hard?

Allison Ball: So, you know, my brother is 13 years younger than I am. There’s a big age difference for the two of us. So I actually had him apprentice for about two years before I sold it to him. So I want to make sure he was ready for this responsibility. And we worked out a deal where I got what I felt like I needed out of it. And I, you know, I didn’t make it too hard for him either. I also had an interest in the business continuing on. So it was okay.

John Coleman: It’s okay to incorporate other things in the sale price, right?

Allison Ball: That’s right.

John Coleman: You touched on a couple of themes there I want to pick up. The first is just how it prepared you to take office at an early age. And you mentioned in the country you were the youngest statewide officer for three years and took on this enormous responsibility that we’ve discussed. How did you handle that enormous responsibility and what advice would you have to others who might seek out that kind of responsibility?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, I really do believe that God has a purpose and a plan for everybody. My dad’s good friend is Charles Stanley, and my dad was an associate pastor in Atlanta for a little while under him. And Charles Stanley always says, you know, God’s got a will and a purpose and a plan for you. My dad always said that to me. I really believe that’s true. So I do believe that, you know, there’s a calling on your life. And sometimes it’s not always easy to figure out what it is you’re supposed to be doing. But I felt like I was supposed to go to law school after I graduated undergrad. And then I moved back home to Prestonburg, where I’m from. And I practiced law for a while. I was a prosecutor for a number of years, and then I gravitated towards bankruptcy law, and I really just had an interest in that. I’ve always had an interest in economics and policy in public service. I’ll tell you the area I’m from, the county I’m from. When I ran for office, it’s 90% registered the party that I am not. So.

John Coleman: Oh, wow.

Allison Ball: Like, I would love to run for office, but I don’t know that I could ever do this from where I’m from. And somebody planted a seed in my head and said, You know what? You should run for a statewide office. I think you’ve got the background where you could do something like that. At that point in time the Treasurer’s office had been underutilized and I don’t think people understood it very well. They didn’t know it and I thought, you know, with a background like mine, I really feel like I could take this office and I could run with it. And I’d always felt like God opened doors at different times. So I really had God just leading me. I didn’t necessarily have it in a sense from the Lord that God was saying, I want you to run for this office now. But I kept seeing doors open and as I would pray through it, I really felt like that was kind of taking me step by step by step. So I ran for office after never having run for anything before. Outside of law school student government. I was a class rep in our Student Bar Association, but except for that, I had never run for office before. So I put my hat in the ring. I had a three way primary and of course I won the three way primary. The person who came in second was 13 points less than me, and then I won that general by 22 points. I was the highest vote getter that year. The way Kentucky does it is we have a gubernatorial year who everybody has a statewide office runs that year. So attorney general, governor, secretary of state, treasurer, we all run the seven that run that year. So I was the top vote getter of everybody who ran that year. When I ran for reelection, I was also the top vote getter. So that was a fun thing. But I really felt like God just gave a great favor. He was with me through all of that. I just had a sense of his direction. So I really do believe that there has to be a calling. I’ll tell you, politics is not easy. I think the world of finance is not easy. But I really believe that we need Christians in public office. I believe we need Christians in the financial sector. As I see things develop in the ESG world, one of the things that has come to me over and over and over again as though we need Christians at high levels in these organizations, because one of the reasons why we see shifts that we as believers aren’t comfortable with is because there aren’t Christians who are at the helm of these particular industries. So I’m a big believer in follow God’s calling, follow God’s guidance in that.

John Coleman: That’s amazing, Allison, and touch on that a little bit more. So you are a person of sincere faith and longstanding faith. How does that really influence your approach to public service, your approach to finances, your interactions with the people you represent?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, it influences everything I do. So when I was beginning to see doors open as I was considering running for office, I remember having a moment where I was at a worship service at the University of Pikeville. Those were college students. I was not a college student, but I just happened to be there at that time with some friends. And I remember sitting in during the time of worship and just really had this sense that God was going to give me opportunities and then I was going to do very well at certain things, but that God was telling me I had to be authentically a follower of Jesus at the same time. And, you know, these opportunities are great, but these opportunities are not for me that I was supposed to be authentically a believer, authentically a follower of Jesus. So I have a mandate. I know that God blesses me when I’m authentically a follower of him. I guess the point really anyway, isn’t it? Like this is why we’re always on mission in our lives. So that’s always guided me in everything I do. You know, we have a direction as believers, we people of integrity. And that’s so important if you’re dealing with finances, you know, honesty, accountability, stewardship, all of those things are core Christian principles. They’re being Christlike. So all of those things influence me in a great way. We live in a time where politics is very volatile and I am very open about being a follower of Jesus. I would describe myself as a person of faith whenever I talk. And so I’m mindful that I’m a witness. For some people, I may be the only Christian they interact with. So I have to make sure that the image they get when they’re with me is an image that reflects well of Jesus.

John Coleman: That is such a good reminder. I know now I work in an explicitly faith driven firm and and it is a good check on any behavior I might exhibit that doesn’t line up with that. You feel an additional sense of obligation, and I’m certainly not in a public office in the way that you are, but I think we are. It’s a good reminder that we’re called to something even greater than our profession in or witnesses to something even greater than our profession. And so we have a higher standard that we are encouraged to abide by than even the standards we would put on ourselves from a professional point of view. You know, one of the interesting parts of your story, Allison, in addition to your faith in your youth, is that in two industries that are very heavily male, both financial services of various times, which traditionally have been heavily male and public service, which has traditionally been heavily male. You’ve been a woman really pioneering that. I mean, the first I love that statistic, that first statewide officer to give birth while in office, which is just amazing. What does it meant to you to be a woman in office? And as you’re talking to other women who are listening to this podcast, how would you encourage them about the path that they want to pursue, either in finance and investments or in public service?

Allison Ball: That’s a great question. And I’ll tell you, I actually was the first one to give birth twice. So not just one. So, so, but I also had a second child. So I may hold the record for a little bit. Maybe we’ll have a third and then we’ll really solidify this record.

John Coleman: You’ll be like Tom Brady setting records and just setting them again and again, outpacing everybody. Yeah.

Allison Ball: That’s right. That’s right. But something I actually did not have an awareness of until I actually got in office, I didn’t know that I was the youngest woman to be elected at a statewide level, so I’d gotten elected. So it wasn’t part of my talking point. It wasn’t something I was really aware of practicing law. I often was the only woman in the courtroom. And so this is somebody I’ve experienced for most of my life, at least from a professional perspective. But one thing I did not realize is how encouraging it is to other women to see a woman do something like this. I remember when I was at UK law school one time and one woman told me this young woman, and she said that you cannot be what you don’t see. And so she was thanking me because she said now she’s see someone who’s doing this. So I did not realize this was going to be part of God’s story for me. But I hope that it is encouraging, and I think that it is encouraging, I have women to be all the time that say they felt like God has called them into something. And seeing another woman doing this, you know, in the financial sector as an elected official, in a place where there are typically men, that just gives them the courage, they can do it, too. It’s actually been really important, I think, to be a mom and a wife and do this. You know, people have different seasons, different responsibilities and different callings. I’m not saying that that every mom out there needs to hold a demanding job like this. That’s not the case. You know, you have to do what you feel called to do, what God’s leading you in your life to do. But there’s a lot of women who said that they wanted to do something like this and this encourages them that this actually is a possibility. So, you know, my husband and I, we actually got married after I got sworn in. We got engaged about a month after I was sworn in. We got married my first year in office, a year, nine months and two days later we had Levi and then we had Marigold last year. So a lot of people have been able to see my story as it’s progressed. And it’s neat because I realize like it’s God’s timing or we got married a little bit later than a lot of other people do, but that was God’s timing and I really like that also is an encouragement to people is that if you’re just seeking God in your trust, in God, you’re doing what He’s led you to do. God can put all these pieces together. You know who you’re supposed to be married to. The children that he wants you to have, how you want you to do it. So I’ve always felt like if God is calling me into elected officials role and I feel like he has and he called me to get married, which he did, and he’s called me to be a mom of two children. He’s called me to do each of those things well, and there’s a way to do each of those things well. So I hope that is a great encouragement to women who watch this. Women often. And there’s books after books after books on this. And I do think it’s true that women a lot of times self disqualify. So I always try to take a moment to just really encourage women that they have a lot more gifts, skills, capabilities, and they realize and we need their voice. We have so many wonderful men doing great things, but we need perspective of women too. We don’t want to lose great talent just because you know, your self disqualifying. And I think many times we as Christians kind of fall in many traditional roles, so we probably even more of that with tendency to do that. So I’m always trying to encourage women that don’t self disqualify. I’ll say real quick, one quote that I love that I often refer to when I talk to women. Leslie Rutledge is the first female attorney general of Arkansas. She’s running for lieutenant governor right now. She was the first to have a baby while serving in office at a constitutional level. So it’s a small sorority. We know each other. And I remember Leslie told me that when she was running for office the first time, people told her, Are you ready for the rough and tumble of politics? It’s mean. Can you handle this? Are you ready? And she told them, any woman who survived junior high can handle anything that politics can throw at you. And I love that because that’s not true just for politics. It’s true for any profession. That is a hard profession. You know, if you’re a woman who survives junior high, you probably got what it takes to do whatever it is God is calling you to do. So I’m always trying to encourage women that we need their voice, we need their involvement, we need a greater level of leadership from women in the country.

John Coleman: And I think it’s neat that you’re able to demonstrate there is often this false choice, I think, in our society that you either need to pursue a professional path or need to have a family. Right. And I know it’s quite difficult. So that’s not underestimating that. I’m married to a wonderful woman who’s pursued various professional things, but you can’t have both of those things actually. And that a woman can achieve a family life, as well as a very successful professional career, I think is such an important message. The other that you touched on, there was a great study or maybe a disappointing study in that they looked at how women and men approach job applications. And, you know, job applications are written to be the ideal candidate, often way overinflated for what the role requires. And maybe unsurprisingly, men would apply for anything regardless of whether they were actually qualified for it. Even if they were dramatically underqualified, men would kind of throw their hat in the ring and move forward, and women would read it very carefully. And if they were disqualified on any front would, as you termed it, self disqualify. And it is important, I think, that message that you’re delivering, that you shouldn’t underestimate yourself. Right. You’re actually capable of doing these jobs, taking on big roles. And don’t be the person who disqualifies yourself, right? Force others to disqualify you if you’re legitimately not qualified. But don’t be afraid to take risk and put your hat in the ring, even for something as big as a statewide public office. I want to touch you know, you’re responsible for great public stewardship in your private life. You’re also stewarding something related to this last topic of women. I know that you and Asa have been big supporters of crisis pregnancy centers, something that’s in the news quite a lot now with the Dobbs ruling. Why does that matter to you and what role does that play in your life?

Allison Ball: Sure. Well, both Asa and I are huge advocates for life, and that’s something we both deeply care about. I remember when we were on our very first date, Asa started talking to me about some things that were important to him, just making sure we were on the same page and we started talking about what we felt about life. And Asa had told me the story is an amazing story about how his mom was, I think, on some steroids at the time that he was conceived. And so the doctor came and said he is at great risk to have all kinds of health problems. He’s going to have a lot of mental disabilities and that you are young. So my advice to you, the doctor said, is just a board game. Try again. Another point. You know, this is not worth the risk. And Asa told me his parents were kind of shocked and I thought, well, a doctor knows what he’s talking about. And they were kind of inclined to do that. And they were actually at a Christian college at the time. So they ended up talking to another doctor who was the doctor on campus. And that doctor, I’m told, reached across the table and said, Do not abort this child. God has a plan for this child. And she started talking to Asa’s mom about what that meant and everything. So they ended up going ahead of having Asa. And what I love about that story is that Asa was born perfectly healthy and he talks about how his dad, when Asa was born. Is that you ever said, does he look normal? Does he have his fingers? Does he have it? Those were serious questions they were asking about Asa. And of course, he’s a genius and he’s wonderful and exemplifies everything that’s wonderful about manhood. You know, I just think he’s perfect. But they were going to abort him. And, you know, he’s the person who’s my husband and a father, my children and a tremendous leader. So he has always just been a great advocate abouut that he cares about it personally. It’s important to him. So we talked about that and it was one of the first causes that I began to care about as a kid when my parents would start to talk to me about issues that were important. So we have always cared about this and we cared about it even more. We had our own little babies. I remember that we went to hear the ultrasound and the heartbeat and see Levi moving around at I think it was a day before 20 weeks. And in Kentucky, 20 weeks is the cutoff after you can’t have an abortion after that point. And we just were just so deeply moved, hearing him, his heartbeat, watching him move around there, the only protection that little fellow had or a precious little boy was our decisions, which is just kind of a moving moment for us. So we also being working parents, little ones. We know how hard it is to raise little ones. And we want to support moms who have just made this incredibly heroic and sacrificial decision to keep these babies, whether it’s through adoption or keep them themselves. So we know how difficult it is. It’s costly. You lose a lot of sleep. So we want to rally behind all these incredibly heroic moms who are doing this, whether they’re married or they’ve got a dad who’s in the picture or they’re doing it on their own, however they’re doing it, we want to rally around them and rally around these precious little lives that God has tremendous plans for. So we’ve always given, we’ve always cared, but that’s been on our top list and we give special offerings. And Levi was born and we did it again when Marigold was born, just thanking God for our healthy little children. So that’s something we care about deeply.

John Coleman: It’s a great testimony, Allison. I know we’re running a bit short now, but I want to end with the question we ask everyone, which is this is the Faith Driven Investor podcast, and we like to ask folks, you know, is there anything that you’re learning from God through scripture right now that you’d want to share with others that’s making an impact on you?

Allison Ball: Sure. Boy, I tell you, this is actually a heavy time in my life because like I told you a few moments ago, I just lost my my grandfather, my grandmother. So my papa my nanny, who I was hugely close to we actually lived with them for a year. So when my parents were trying to figure out their finances, they ended up they sold their house in Atlanta and their plan was just to conserve money. So we lived for a year in the back bedroom of my grandparents house and losing them has been it was a shock. Both of them were surprised they were not having ill health or anything. And this has just been a you know, if you believe the things that Jesus says about eternal life and his faithfulness, then you would believe it in the hard times. And this has been a hard time for me personally because of losing them. So have just really been just pouring into what Jesus says about his faithfulness and what He says about how He goes to prepare a place for you in heaven and kind of what that is like. So in a deep way, that’s been something that God’s been helping me through. I know I’m not the first one to go through loss. You know, everyone goes there’s at some point in time. But this has been the most impactful loss that I’ve gone through. And just it’s been important seeing God’s faithfulness in this time.

John Coleman: Well, Allison, our prayers will be with you as you process that loss. I know that is that is really hard to lose such a valued family member. And man, I just think so many people will be encouraged by this. I think many people will wish they were a Kentuckian now getting to hear what great representation they would have. And I think it’s such an encouragement to others who might, at a young age or as a woman or just as a person, generally decide to take up the mantle of public service and to do so in a relatively complex office like Treasury, where you do have such diverse responsibilities. So we are very grateful to you for coming on the Faith Driven Investor podcast, and I hope we can get you back again sometime soon.

Allison Ball: Thank you very much. It was a joy.

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Most investors often start with how to maximize returns and minimize risk. Don Simmons, CFP Professional and Founder and CEO of Simmons Capital Group, believes that Faith Driven Investors should seek to optimize beneficial outcomes instead. 

As a CFP Professional with a degree in counseling and post graduate training as a portfolio asset allocation specialist, Don fuses professional portfolio strategy with investor psychology and behavior. 

Don joins our podcast to talk about his recently released book “The Steward Investor: Investing God’s Resources for Eternal Impact.” Don shares that as Christians, we need to be on the forefront of planting business in economically difficult areas where issues like unemployment and human trafficking prevent human flourishing. Listen in as Don pushes the envelope on the role of Christians as stewards of God’s resources.

To learn more about The Steward Investor, missional investing, and news about Don’s speaking, sign up for his newsletter at https://thestewardinvestor.com/

Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman and I am here with my partner Luke Roush today, freshly coming off a very good Christian economic forum in Beaver Creek, Colorado. Luke, it’s great to see you. How did you like last week?

Luke Roush: It was great. It’s always a special time of community with folks from here in the U.S. and also around the world. So it’s a reminder of just the scope and scale of God’s church and special things that can occur when we convene and share ideas, knowing that the answers to humanity’s biggest problems don’t come from humanity, but they come from God’s word and fellowship in prayer. So it was a great, great couple of days there in Beaver Creek.

John Coleman: Amen. And it’s a ministry of Crown Financial Services and part of the great work that they do. And I was only introduced to it by you all last year, so it was my first time. And I mean, I just find it really enriching every year. And one of the most enriching parts is Luke mentioned are the great people that you meet there, one of whom is on the podcast today. So we are really privileged to welcome Don Simmons. Don established Simmons Capital Group in 1988 and became one of the first fee based registered investment advisors in upstate New York. He is a legend in the faith driven investment and wealth management space and has recently written a book called The Steward Investor Investing God’s Resources for Eternal Impact. And we’re really privileged to welcome him on the podcast today and talk to him about some of the principles in that book and in the life he’s crafted in investing. So thanks so much, Don, and welcome.

Don Simmons: Thanks, John. Glad to be here.

John Coleman: Well, Don, I want to start with this exciting new book, The Steward Investor. You’ve obviously been quite thoughtful about the topic, but just give us a little bit of background. What is the steward investor and what’s the core thesis of the book?

Don Simmons: Yeah, you know, I’m not really a writer. I guess I’m an accidental author in that this book kind of just spilled out of me last year when I took a leave of absence from work, and it spilled out around really the issue of as Christians, do we really believe what we say we believe? And as a professional money manager, the question that really came to my mind is we frequently say that God owns it all, but there are implications to that, especially in regard to how we invest. So the book really dives into our current understanding of stewardship being primarily about financial competence, which is true whether you’re a Christian or not. And I try to get into more the issue of stewardship being about ownership and being a fiduciary for God who truly owns it all. And that has very direct implications on how we invest. So the book was an attempt to address this issue of investing as a steward, not just making money and then giving it away, but in the making of the money. How do we honor God and bring forth eternal impact in our investing.

John Coleman: And Don, I love how you touched on this idea of stewardship is present even outside of faith driven circles. But certainly for Christians, there are distinctive elements of that. You know, as you looked at the realm of stewardship in the mainstream world and then think about it in the faith driven world, what are some of the similarities with the way that the rest of the world views stewardship? And what do you think is distinctively Christian in our understanding of stewardship?

Don Simmons: Yeah, unfortunately, John, my experience having attended some of the largest impact investment forums in the world, the Global Impact Investing Conference that is held annually in London in the U.K. my primary finding or observation is that Christians are at least a decade or 15 years behind the secular space relative to thinking about investing in ways that accomplish multiple bottom line outcomes, not just a financial return. So how are we similar? We’re similar in the sense that Christians are finally starting to grab a hold of this idea. But we’re still very young relative to the secular world in terms of multiple bottom line impact through investing.

Luke Roush: Don, one of the things that I love about just you’re witnessing in your work is that you haven’t just written about it, you haven’t just talked about it, but you’ve also done it. And one of the first funds that we encountered when we were starting our work a decade ago was some of the work that you guys had done through IBEX. I’d love to have you maybe just speak to that a bit and what that part of your journey has been that kind of guided you to where you are today?

Don Simmons: Yeah, my involvement with them goes back to about 2008 and all I can say is that their work particularly in the least reached unengaged part of the world relative to the Gospel I think is second to none. So much of what I wrote about in the book is from my experience in How can we invest for God’s glory among the least reached, the most impoverished and quite frankly, the most corrupt countries in the world? Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to tell many of the stories that I’ve been involved with simply for security reasons. So I tried to use some of the stories in locations that are not as restricted where security isn’t that critical. But what I learned during my time as the chief operating officer for them was that this kind of investing needs to be done in a way that seeks to optimize a number of different outcomes as opposed to just maximizing financial return. And so optimizing outcomes across both economic, environmental, social and spiritual transformative elements is really critical. And so many times as investors, we start with how do we maximize return and then how can we add to these other things? Well, an optimization approach says all of these pieces have to be addressed simultaneously. And it’s like moving a set of levers or dials. And as you dial one dial one way, it affects the performance in other areas. So optimization is about getting the best outcomes, not the maximum outcome in any individual category, but the best outcomes across all categories. And that’s you know, it’s really exciting when you can do that. And some of the stories that I tell in the book just exemplify the wonderful transformation that’s occurred in communities. And our hope is across entire countries because of the businesses that we’re planting.

Luke Roush: Well, and one of the things that I really appreciated about the IBEX story is the way that you and others in that fund waded into what many folks would probably call the messy middle. Right. It wasn’t philanthropy. It wasn’t even sort of zero interest lending. But it also wasn’t always kind of at market risk adjusted rate of return investing, which there’s flavors of that within FTI as well. And I think that one of the things that IBEX did well is trying to wade into that middle ground of this is work that needs to get done in parts of the world that are quite dark and we want to be able to introduce market mechanisms to how we supply capital, but we want to do it in a way that also maintains focus on non-economic outcomes. So maybe just speak to kind of that and what that journey look like over time.

Don Simmons: Yeah, and we’d love to have this discussion about market like returns or concessionary returns. And I want to be frank that I am a capitalist. I believe in investing. I believe that profit is the lifeblood of a business. But as a follower of Christ, I’ve come to believe that maximizing financial return is not my top priority. And so I believe that it’s appropriate to have funds like sovereigns and others that are participating in the public marketplace with traditional investments seeking high returns in ways that honor Christ. But my book is really challenging to the Body of Christ because most of us want to migrate toward the financial return because that benefits ourselves. When I look at managing money for God, I have to think about, well, what are his objectives? You know, he commands us to go and make disciples to the ends of the earth. He calls us to be the salt and light of the Gospel and to bring forth the great commandment, loving our neighbor as ourselves. And many of those times, you can’t do that in these difficult places and start with a financial return mindset. In fact, the kind of investing that we do as a professional, I would say you can’t possibly get the appropriate return to justify the level of risk that we’re taking. So if that’s the metric that I start with, we might as well just abandon it. And I simply disagree that as Christians, we need to be in the marketplace, we need to be planting businesses in very difficult locations. And often we have to be making decisions to plant businesses where they may not likely succeed in the way that we normally think, because the infrastructure isn’t there, the trained workforce isn’t there, there isn’t reliable electricity or Internet. There’s high corruption. It’s hard to start with a financial return mindset and be successful in those environments unless your priorities are how do we reduce unemployment from 80% down to 20%? How do we care for those who’ve been exploited because of human trafficking and making sure that they have jobs that can support their family without returning to that enslavement that they had been a part of? These are difficult questions, but I want to push the envelope with Christians to think that part of our role as stewards is to address those issues. And it’s not about donations being sacred and business being secular. We can address those concerns in the making of the money, in the way that we invest. I think in a way that’s more impactful than just through donations.

Luke Roush: I think it’s a great push on. It’s a good challenge for us and for just the entire movement. So I’m grateful for you pushing on that.

John Coleman: And Don, I’m a story guy, so I wanted to touch on, you mentioned there are a lot of great stories in the book where you’ve seen this in action. I would love to hear one of those stories, if you don’t mind, to put color around the concepts that you’re talking about, where you just seen the ability to create a company or some other type of asset in these places that you think has had a remarkable impact.

Don Simmons: Yeah, and this is one of the stories that’s in the book that perhaps may be my favorite because of the involvement of my own daughters in this story. We had made an investment in a project in Nepal, what would be termed a freedom business, which is a business that is specifically set up in order to help provide jobs for those who’ve been exploited because of human trafficking. And so I took two of my girls to Nepal with me to visit a handful of freedom businesses in Kathmandu and get a feel for this tragic problem. After visiting a number of freedom businesses. We took a hiking trek up into the mountains where human trafficking had been most prevalent in this area. And it was about the third day of trekking after a six hour jeep drive across muddy roads that you thought you were going to fall off of the cliff. But then we started hiking and on the third day, my 18 year old daughter, Kristie, looked at me and said, dad, why are there no girls? And before she finished the word girls, she looked at me and said, Oh, those businesses that we visited in Kathmandu are for the girls that are no longer here, because in those small villages there were no teenage girls. There were no girls over the age of about seven because they had all been sold into human trafficking. And it wasn’t until one of the last days that we had a deeper conversation. We had been staying at what are called homestays. They’re like a little youth hostel in each village, and these youth hostels had been set up by a very wise business group for the specific purpose of helping to create an industry among these impoverished villages where trekkers could stay at these homestays and it would generate revenue, locals could sell chickens to the tourists or candy or water, and it created really a vibrant economy in these villages. And on the last day, we stayed in one homestay and there was a girl who was 14 years old. She was the first teenage girl in these villages in many, many years. And it’s because her family owned a homestay. And so for me and the impact on my daughter, to see that and also to ask myself if I lived there, would I have sold my daughter because there was no other way to provide for the rest of my family. So it’s just wonderful to see how business in that case has almost eradicated the human trafficking in that part of the country in about a decade of work. Just an incredible story.

John Coleman: Wow. Don. That is remarkably powerful. I was reminded of something similar, not quite as intense. I was able to take my oldest son, my nine year old, on a mission trip recently, his first in the developing world. And it’s just so powerful to be exposed or in my case, to be re-exposed to the way that other people have to live and to really put yourselves in their seats and to understand how difficult some of these choices are and to understand how deep the need is. To serve others in these parts of the world. And the idea that you can do that not just through nonprofits or through charity or through missions, but also through building redemptive enterprises in these countries, I think is inspiring. I know we want to pivot a little bit to how you advise people on this and maybe to kick that off. It can be overwhelming looking at opportunities like you just described for the average investor who’s in a 6040 public portfolio to think, how do I get into this? How do I start making an impact? You know, as you talk to folks and they want to do more of what you just described, what are the first steps that you often advise people on is they want to deepen the impact that they can have with their financial stewardship.

Don Simmons: I think the first question is whether a Christian’s portfolio should look any different from a non-Christians portfolio. If we’ve come to believe that stewardship is about financial competence, we may think the answer to that is no. We should do the very best that we can to make as much money as we can so that we can give money away. And I simply have come to disagree with that. And I manage several hundred million dollars for people in traditionally traded investments. Most of my clients are not Christians, but when I manage my own money and at least ask the questions of other Christians, how should my portfolio differ? As a follower of Christ, I have to either consider that maybe there should be some screening on my traditional investments so that my investments align with my moral and Christian values. But I have never been one who looks at my faith as do’s and don’ts, so I’d rather not be one who just excludes things, because that’s what my faith says. I’d rather be proactive. I call it proactive values investing. PVI How do we find investments that clearly align with our values that are seeking great commission outcomes, that are seeking to disciple people in the Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist part of the world? That’s a very different approach, and it requires a comprehensive management of all of the portfolio so that you can balance the risk and return with traditional investments to offset perhaps the higher risk and lower returns of these missional kinds of investments. And it’s yeah, it’s not easy. I think that people will need a guide for that. Unfortunately, the financial services world is one where regulation prevents most financial advisors from even talking about these kinds of things because their private placement, non publicly traded investments. And if you operate within a broker dealer FINRA regulated system, you can’t talk about a private placement investment in Ethiopia because your broker dealer doesn’t approve that. So my hope over the next few years is to be a voice into the financial services community. How do we release financial planners to provide this kind of advice? And that’s where I hope that FDI, Kingdom Advisors and Crown and others can start to address the compliance and regulatory issues and just the structural issues of financial advisor firms so that they can provide. That’s my publisher, really. Before publishing the book, when he had the manuscript, he said, Don, you’ve persuaded me. I need to invest differently, but who’s going to be a guide? And at that time I said, Well, there’s really not a guide. And over the course of a few months, I was persuaded by the Lord that somebody needed to set up an advisory firm to do that. So we’ve just gotten FCC approval, and we’re fully in business now to help people manage their money holistically, to include a comprehensive, risk adjusted portfolio that aligns with people’s values and simultaneously brings in these unique private placement investments that proactively bring forth missional and redemptive outcomes.

Luke Roush: So for the financial advisors who are listeners to the podcast and are likely very interested in this topic, what are the on ramps for them to be able to engage with you or be able to? You know, we talk a lot about how do we leave the ladder down for others? So like, what does it look like for you with your work to either leave the ladder down for others or to be able to engage with advisors who are interested in this space but aren’t really sure kind of what the first three or four steps looks like.

Don Simmons: Yeah, that’s a tough question, Luke. I think FDI can play a big part in that, that perhaps we may need to have a discussion group that’s specifically on this topic for advisors that gets beyond BRI, which is wonderful, but how do we start to engage at a deeper level of proactive values investing? Certainly they can connect with me at my website Steward Advisors Group dot com or the book web site, the steward advisor dot com. Mark Weston in Birmingham has an R.I.A. that is called Eversource. They are also starting to dip their toe into the water. Rachel McDonough has been involved with FDI and Kingdom Advisors. She’s got a business set up to help to train and coach advisors in this area. So the good news is, compared to five years ago, I would have said there was no advisors doing this kind of stuff. Now I can say, well, there’s three names that are starting to explore this, and I would hope that in ten years we have 100 RIA firms that are doing this.

John Coleman: Don That’s awesome. And it’s an encouragement and it mirrors what we’re seeing where the number of investment managers has dramatically expanded in public and private markets over the course of the last five or ten years. And the quality of those investment managers is continued to improve as well. Their ability to access great deals, to navigate those well, to be a good fiduciary for their clients. And I think that explosion of interest in faith driven investing and the ability to action it through great advisors and investment managers is really essential to move the industry forward. I’ve seen what you’ve seen. I came out of the mainstream investing world and you know, I would say the mainstream values investing world has at least a 20 to 30 year jump on Faith Driven Investing right now, I mean, it’s huge, but there’s a lot we can learn from that, right? And there’s a lot of ways in which we can catch up as we’re navigating a distinctively Christian approach to those topics. I think, you know, one thing that strikes me as I listen to you, Don, if we can back up maybe and focus a little bit more on you, is talking to you that you’re the kind of person who often becomes a pastor or a missionary who has a deep and deep passion for this. And yet you became not only a business person, but a financial person, which many people view is very far from the mission field. Talk to us a little bit about your history and just how you came to this field and came to believe it was your calling.

Don Simmons: Oh, you know, it really starts in college. I was a computer science major, so I kind of am a math geek. But by my junior year, I had determined that I didn’t want to sit behind a computer debugging program, so I needed a social outlet. So I ended up with a double major in computer science and psychology counseling, just the opposite figure that’s as far away from analytics as you can get. But as it turns out, being a financial advisor requires both. You have to be really good at the mathematics, and then you need to be able to communicate that with people and ways that they can understand. After college and I was in ministry, I worked for several years as an area director for Young Life, basically, which is an outreach to high school students, not a church youth group leader, but just to the kids that are at the high school. And when I look at my career now, the last 15 years, being involved in that business as Mission BAM or B for T business, for transformation movement. For those of you who understand young life, I just say this is just young life with business people. It’s the incarnation of ministry in the marketplace. It’s going to where people are. And so, you know, what I love about financial services and business, if we dispel the idea of a sacred secular divide, there’s no sacred or secular vocation. And we also have to remember that donations are not sacred and investments are not secular, that our investments are just as sacred as the donations that we make when we’re managing it all as God’s fiduciary. In the book, I call it Gods oikonomos. That’s the Greek word for household manager. A fiduciary or an oikonomos owns nothing that they manage. And personally, as I understand my role as God’s steward, I own nothing. Therefore, everything should be managed for His glory and to point people to him.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. Don, and you know, in that context, I also know you’re an engaged husband and father of four. I think I have four as well. And you do act. To fully participate in service offerings around the world. Talk to us a little bit more about how your faith plays into just your role as a husband and father, and also just how you, outside of your core business, seek to engage your faith in service.

Don Simmons: Yeah, I have a hard time drawing lines between personal and business, hence the reason that once my kids are 16, they’re kind of on the rotation to go on these adventures with me to strange parts of the world, you know? To answer your question, John, I just think that everything that I do is in service to the Lord. So it’s critical that I have a number one responsibility to my family and raising them up to understand matters of faith. Of course, as they become adults, they have to make their own decisions. But I want to plant as many seeds into them while they’re young, not just by sending them to church or Sunday school or camp, but for them to see in real life. How does this play itself out as a business owner, as a dad, as a husband? You know, my faith, just like I started that conversation, if I really believe what I say I believe, then God has to control and influence and invade every aspect of my life. So to me, it’s hard to draw a line between the two. It all kind of melds together.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. Don I think what we might do now is pivot to a very fun part of the program, which we call the Lightning Round. So we have explored a bunch of in-depth topics. Now we want to try and get your 30 to 60 second responses to a couple of fun topics. And I am going to start with a fun little fact that I learned about you in preparing for this show. Apparently you like to fly a 1948 Aeronca sedan float plane in 60 seconds. How the heck did you start driving a float plane? And what’s that like?

Don Simmons: I grew up on a lake, so I love water and boats and swimming. When I was probably about 30, 35, I got an interest in flying very quickly, got my private pilot’s license, and in order to stay current, you have to take extra classes every other year. My first class was flying a seaplane and I fell in love with it because of my love for boating and my love for flying. The problem is, is that you can’t rent sea planes. So if I was ever going to really enjoy that passion, I was going to have to buy a seaplane. And a 1948 plane is less expensive than most people’s car. So that’s how I ended up with Aeronca sedan, which was the float claim to have. If you lived in Alaska in the 1940. it can haul a lot of people and it’s got big windows, so it’s great for sightseeing.

John Coleman: As a financial person, before Luke takes the next question, I am struggling to think what the underwriting for renters insurance on a 1948 Sea plan would look like. So I can’t imagine that the sea plane renting business is not very active.

Don Simmons: That’s why you can’t rent them. You either need to buy them, usually in partnership with other people. So I bought this with a friend who restores airplanes and he completely restored it. It’s. It’s beautiful.

Luke Roush: Wow, that’s awesome. I want to pivot it over to just mentoring and just the importance of it’s something that you’ve talked about, love to understand your quick take on why this should not just be a priority for some but should be a priority for all.

Don Simmons: Yeah. I mean, mentoring younger people has always been a passion of mine, but specifically starting this new business at age 59, I’m thinking very differently than I did when I started the business at 23 in that I’m trying to identify successors, maybe people who can take the reins of this business in five years or ten years whenever the Lord has me start to slow down. So it’s not just in terms of business that I want to mentor people, but it seems like most of the conversations I have today with young folks who are are millennials or Gen Z. They’re already passionate about this holistic integrating faith into everything, but they need the wisdom and experience of those of us who have gone before that. So it’s not just the passions, but how do you tie that with the reality and you only get that with experience.

John Coleman: So, Don, I’m going to give you one last lightning round question. You’re a well-traveled person, often to relatively off the grid places. What’s been your favorite place that you’ve visited and why?

Don Simmons: Yeah, I think my favorite. Is Kyrgyzstan simply because of the deep friendships that I made there. And it is a country that is just spectacular with beauty. I was mentoring a printing publishing company there for many years from 2010 when there was a overthrow of the government for maybe the next ten years. And we would have our board meetings as camping trips out to the mountains between Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. Frequently we’d have our campsite and campfires at about 10,000 feet of elevation. Just a spectacular, spectacular country. And the people are wonderful.

John Coleman: Yeah, I had a chance to spend a little bit of time in Central Asia, in Afghanistan, in Mazar I Sharif, which is up in the northern part of the country. And it is I mean, Central Asia is beautiful and desolate and different and everything you could describe and I know all the countries are quite different as well, but it’s one of those places that most people haven’t had the chance to be. And it’s one that I hope people get to at some point, because it’s often overlooked.

Luke Roush: And I was actually always curious where the name IBEX from IBEX Fund originally came from. But now I know because that’s actually where you find IBEX is above eight or 9000 feet in Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan. So that’s I assume that you saw them when you were over there.

Don Simmons: Oh, absolutely. And a great icon for a great business, thriving in difficult places.

Luke Roush: Oh, yeah. That’s awesome. Hey, one last question for you. We always like to wrap each podcast with some part of where God’s word is speaking to you lately. And so how would you just speak to what God has taught you lately through his word.

Don Simmons: You know, I wrote about this in the book about the Lord’s Prayer and specifically about give us this day, our daily bread. You know, the longer that we’re in our careers, especially one who’s a financial service guy, we should typically be approaching age 60 at a point of financial independence. And one of the things that I’ve learned, probably because of the involvement in so many businesses that struggle, is that I pray every day now for my daily bread, not just for my family’s needs, but for the daily bread, for the businesses that I’m involved with that are struggling. And my wife, Amy and I have made a commitment for the last 15 years that we need to live in the same level of faith as those who are dependent on us for financial support, either through donations or by the investments that we make in their business. We heard one wise man many years ago talk about matters of faith and that when you’re in your twenties, it may be a lot to give $1,000 to something that requires a lot of faith. But for those of us who are farther down the journey, we need to have the same level of faith. It probably just means we need to add more zeros to those things that we’re praying about. So to answer your question, Luke, praying today for the daily bread for myself and those that we are partnered with, because I believe God has provided enough resources in the world, they’re just not properly distributed. And in America we tend to hoard them for our own needs so that we think we can be financially independent, when in fact we really need to be dependent on God on our nest eggs. Hmm.

Luke Roush: Don, we’re grateful for you sharing wisdom with us and our listeners today. We’re grateful for the gift that you’ve given to a community with the book steward investor, and I look forward to reading it in more detail in the coming months. It just arrived last week and so excited to get into it and grateful for your example in a really positive and redemptive direction over the last decade plus. So we appreciate you.

Don Simmons: Thanks. Luke and John, this has been a lot of fun.

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Phil Clemens spent 52 years on the payroll of the Clemens Food Group, a sixth-generation family-owned business providing quality pork products to the U.S. The business is now the 5th largest producer of pork in the U.S. with annual sales in excess of $1 billion. 

As the former chairman of the Clemens Family Corporation, Phil spent 14 years developing a succession plan for when he retired. Phil joins the Faith Driven Investor Podcast today to talk about the importance of legacy and how a family business can successfully and effectively be passed to the next generation.

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Episode Transcript

John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Today we have a very, very special session as we are pleased to welcome Phil Clemens. Phil was formerly the CEO of his family business, the Clemmens Food Group, which had more than 3500 team members around the world. He has worked in a variety of businesses, served on a number of boards, and I’ll say also is just known in the community as someone who’s incredibly supportive of others. He’s constantly looking to invest in others and just has a genuine kingdom mindset. And we’re really excited to learn from him today, both about his approach to investment and to thinking about faith led businesses and also the way in which he’s approached family legacy, family business and encouraging other families that are in entrepreneurship and running businesses. So, Phil, thanks so much and welcome to the show today.

Phil Clemens: Glad to be here.

John Coleman: Well, Phil why don’t we get started just with a brief biography. We reviewed a few of the details just now, but who are you and where do you come from and what is your experience been over the course of the last few years?

Phil Clemens: Okay. Well, my parents were less and Kay Clemens. My dad was in the business before me. I’m married to Linda. Next year, we celebrate 50 years in marriage. We have three daughters. Our oldest daughter actually works in the business. Our second oldest daughter is a missionary. She’s married to Paul College there with Mission Aviation Fellowship, and they were in Indonesia for 12 years and now they work in member care and they have four sons. And then my youngest daughter Ruth is married to Brant College. She was a schoolteacher. She’s a stay at home mom now and she has three boys. So we raised three girls and now we have seven grandsons.

John Coleman: That is a houseful, I bet, at holidays.

Phil Clemens: It is. It is. It’s fun.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. Phil and tell me you’ve had a pretty long history in your family business. Tell us a bit more about that, how it started and how you work through the ranks there.

Phil Clemens: Well, when my parents got married, they lived right next to the business. And at the age of ten, I was a middle son. I had two other brothers, one older, one younger. My parents gave us the option to go to work at the family business or do more chores around the house, both for the same pay nothing. So I decided I’d go to work at the family business. So the first two years have been get paid. At age 12, I got on the payroll at $0.75 an hour and work part time up through all of high school till into college. And then I began full time while I was in college. And when I got out of college, I actually asked to be interviewed with the business to see if I wanted to stay there. I didn’t want to feel that I was entitled to a job, that it was something I wanted to look and see. Did they want to hire me and did I want to work there? And I actually had interviewed quite a few places and the company business was the lowest pay, but the greatest challenge. So I went to work for the family business.

John Coleman: Well, they got a discount and they hired well, Phil, because you eventually went on to be CEO and chairman, although you stepped out of that role in 2015. And I want to pivot in a moment because I know you’ve been very thoughtful about investments and the impact of building faith aligned businesses, but just give us a brief overview of what you’ve been doing since 2015 as we circle back to that later.

Phil Clemens: Well, you know, I was always taught that you spend your first 20 or 25 years learning the next 40 or 50 years earning and your final years in returning. So I’ve been in the returning phase and for the last seven years I’ve been involved with about 12 or 13 boards. Some are faith based, others are family businesses and trying to help them. Some I actually go on boards where I become salt and light and try to share my testimony with others in business. So it’s been a real time of returning to others.

John Coleman: That’s awesome. Phil And we’re going to circle back a lot to this concept of family business because it’s something you’ve been really thoughtful about, both in your own business as well as those of others. Before we do, though, you know, this is the Faith Driven Investor podcast and we think a lot about the ways in which people can integrate their faith into the way that they invest. Would you mind talking for a moment just how you think about that topic?

Phil Clemens: Yeah, I think, you know, as a business person, we invest our time, our talent and our treasure. And some of it’s the capital investing financial capital. And how do we get a return on that and how do we become a good steward of what God has given us? And one of the things we have done as a company is we believe in tithing our profits and not only tithing our profits, but we share about one third of our profits with our team members. We believe it’s really important for the team that helps to generate the profit, that they get a fair amount of that profit. And so we encourage the company to continue to invest globally, but also invest back in our community and back into our people. We think that’s really, really important. And from a stewardship standpoint, I think some day God’s going to ask us, what did you do with what I gave you? And we’ll look at and even give answers of how we actually invested back in our community and to our people.

John Coleman: Phil that’s awesome. And, you know, one of the things you brought up, you’re describing a bit what some people would call stakeholder capitalism, right? Where you’re thinking about shareholders is one of many groups that you’re considering, whether it be the community employees, in this case, your own faith in God. How do you balance those tensions between the economic returns of the business and these other stakeholders that you want to account for?

Phil Clemens: Well, we think it’s really important that we actually put ourselves last. We believe putting God first, putting our employees second, and then the shareholders come last. You know, a lot of businesses do just the opposite. They say shareholders get the first amount and then we give some to our employees and maybe some to charity. We believe it’s just the opposite model that God has told us. If we put him first, he will bless us. And I think he blesses us to be a blessing to others.

John Coleman: That’s awesome Phil. And as you think about the way that that’s impacted your employees, you know, one of the things we observe is that we have a conviction at the firm that I work at, that healthy cultures create competitive advantage, that investments in people actually do have a really positive return on investments and that caring for people will actually lead to greater economic success for the business. Have you seen that in your own business and how has that manifested for employees? What does it look like for you to invest in employees?

Phil Clemens: Well, yes, we have absolutely seen it. And, you know, you don’t do it to get the economic benefit. That’s just a consequence of God allows because of a choice you’ve made. And to me, when you invest in your employees, I can give you a story after story of how we’ve blessed our employees from time to time. And oftentimes when we bless them, we ask them, Is there somebody that you should be blessing because you’ve been blessed? And I will tell you, there’s times when we’ve give significant bonuses to our team members, and I hear stories of how they turned around and gave their entire bonus away to somebody else who was hurting because they had a chance to bless somebody else because they have been blessed.

John Coleman: Wow, isn’t that amazing? And that’s such a great reflection of scripture and really the core element of the great commandment, right to love God and love others. And you see that as you express that, that it makes it even easier for others to express that in the way that they live. I want to pivot now to the specifics of a family business, which is obviously quite a unique context, as opposed to just a general business. What do you think are the unique challenges of running a family business?

Phil Clemens: Well, every family business has three unique circles where other businesses only have two circles. In a normal business, you have the business circle and you have the ownership circle. In a family business, you add one other circle, and that’s the family circle. And what’s really critical is you need to know what hat you’re wearing. You know when to wear a family hat, when do you wear an ownership hat and where do you wear the employee hat? And unfortunately, many family businesses, actually, they only wear one hat. They wear a family hat, and that trumps everything. But unfortunately, when you enmesh those together, it ends up with a lot of confusion to family, to employees, and to others and actually to yourself.

John Coleman: One, it can make it a bit more personal, I would imagine, to, you know, with in a typical business context, we obviously try and express love for those with whom we work, but they’re not actually family. Whereas, you know, the potential for hurt feelings or for things to be taken personally in a family business seem to be much higher. How have you navigated that over time, especially as you walk that balance between owner, employee and family member?

Phil Clemens: Well, I would tell you that in my years of employment, I’ve probably have terminated at least a dozen of our family members. And I have to realize when I terminating them, when I was wearing the boss hat and as soon as I terminated them, I immediately took off the boss hat and put on the family hat because they’re still a family member. And how do I relate to them as we go through it? And one of the things that I have a rule that I set up is what I call my communion rule. And that means I may terminate you as an employee, but if I come to church with you on Sunday and we have communion, if I can’t take communion with you, I’ve done something wrong. While you may not want to take me with me, but that’s okay if I can’t have communion with you. I’ve done something wrong and I need to go and confess something to you.

John Coleman: Wow. That’s an amazing heart check, Phil. I’ve never actually heard someone describe that. You know, that would be useful metric, I think interacting with anyone, if you’ve treated anyone in a way, you feel like you can’t take communion with them. It’s probably a gut check that you’ve done something wrong in that relationship.

Phil Clemens: Yeah. And oftentimes those damage relationship and they damage every one of the circles. They damage family relationships, the ownership relationship and the business relationship.

John Coleman: You know, one of the other unique elements of a family business is that the shareholders or owners of the business aren’t some disembodied third party or large group of investors. Employees see the family every day, and that probably creates unique opportunities and tensions. How do you make sure the family and the employee base are really aligned?

Phil Clemens: Well, I should tell you that our family is really large. Let me just give you a little bit of history from our family. My grandparents had 14 children. For those children died before their first birthday. So they raised ten children, five boys and five girls. So living in our family today from my grandparents are about 850 to 900 family members.

John Coleman: Wow.

Phil Clemens: 380 of them are shareholders of our company. So less than half of the family are actually shareholders. 23 of those actually work in the business. So how do the 23 relate to all of our team members? Is they don’t relate to the entire family. But, you know, from time to time, we eventually invite the entire family to be with our shareholder base because we want them to see our team members as part of the family.

John Coleman: Phil I had no idea how big your family was actually in more than 300 shareholders. That is remarkably complex for a family business.

Phil Clemens: When our shareholders actually go right now from the second generation to the sixth generation.

John Coleman: Unreal. What does it look like to have a shareholder meeting just tactically? How do you think about that and what are the conversations look like?

Phil Clemens: Well, we try to really focus on the business, not focus on the family, but we also look and say, what does it mean as owners? How do we look at this business and again, really have them understand a mindset that they’re an owner, but they really only have ownership. They don’t actually act as an owner. So it’s a very different mindset. As an owner, I can go do with it whatever we want. Well, if we really believe God owns this business, He owns that business and we just have ownership in it and we’re stewards in it. So we really want our shareholders to see the business as a stewardship business, but also when they get shares given to them from their parents or grandparents, that they really see this as an heirloom, something that they can take care of and gain a value to pass to the next generations.

John Coleman: So there’s a real cultural element to it, just the mindset that your family has about its ownership stake in the business, and then there must be kind of a tactical component to it as well. So do you have almost like an executive board within that shareholder base that really leads most of the day to day decisions in the business? Or how do you think about that and how is that group selected from such a large group of family members?

Phil Clemens: Well, what’s really interesting, we do have something we call the Clemens Family Owners Board. That’s a group that speaks for all of our shareholders to speak as one voice. We actually have a board of directors to oversee the business, and it’s always been our intention to have the majority of our board members be independent directors and only have a few family members on the board. We want to have the board held very high accountability to our management team.

John Coleman: I mean, that’s best practice. Even if you think about public companies where you’re generating real independence for the board, that’s going to feel risky to some family members. Though I would imagine appointing independents, how do you select those folks and how do you get the confidence of the family as you’re picking those people?

Phil Clemens: Well, we have real criteria. We look at we want to make sure that they are going to be in align and embrace our mission. Now, our mission of our company is very unusual. It says this We aspire to operate in a way that honors the Lord Jesus Christ as demonstrated through ethics, integrity and stewardship. So when we go and interview potential board members. We want to say we have a very unique mission. And we’re going to ask, can you embrace this as we go forward, because it clearly is not politically correct in the 21st century?

John Coleman: Yeah, that’s a very distinctive mission. I mean, we I often say as I write about things like purpose, culture and mission, that a really good culture and a really good mission will turn off as many people as it excites. Right, that people

Phil Clemens: It does.

John Coleman: Know they want to join and no, they don’t want to join by looking at it. And if it’s something that’s kind of so broadly acceptable that everyone kind of thinks they want to join or be part of it, it’s probably not very distinctive right now. And so what I love about that is you’re so distinctive about the values of the business and so clear with everyone who joins about the expectations coming into the business.

Phil Clemens: And what we do, we actually take a look at that. Our core values is our foundation. And our core values are ethics, integrity and stewardship, which is right in our mission statement. But we also give them very simple definitions ethics. I’ll do the right thing. Integrity, I’ll do what I say. Stewardship, I’ll build a foundation for the future. From that core value, we build our mission and therefore we add the Lord Jesus Christ into it because that’s who we’re serving. And we want people to know that we’re going to be held to a higher standard because of having him at our mission statement. We don’t try to wear it on our sleeves as a banner. It’s just this is who we’re going to be accountable to.

John Coleman: Well, it’s in some ways, it is a great accountability mechanism. I know I work in a business that has got explicitly as part of our mission. And I was in a debate recently with some of our team members, and one of the team members said, you know, are you comfortable with this decision with people holding us to a higher standard and think of us as a representation of Christians in this area? And it was kind of a dagger like you really do have to hold yourself to an exceptionally high standard, probably higher than most people would, because you feel the burden of reflecting on your creator and of your savior. And that’s a higher burden, I think, than any fiduciary burden that exists.

Phil Clemens: Absolutely. But let me just tell you one story real quick about I was teaching a leadership class at our company, and part of it was about our mission statement and one of our team members who is new out of college, a real potential rising star. So the reason I came to work for this company is because of your mission statement. And so I asked the question, are you a Christ follower? She said, Absolutely not. She said, When I was growing up, I was raised Catholic. When I went to college, I threw away all my religious beliefs. But when I came out and I saw what this mission statement was, I was attract this company. And I said, so let me ask you this. How do you think you honor Jesus Christ? The Lord Jesus Christ. That’s very easy. She goes, She said, We have our core values. The first is ethics. I’ll do the right thing. If I come to work every day and I’m doing the right thing, I think that’s going to honor Jesus Christ. If I come and I keep my promises with integrity, I’m going to honor Jesus Christ. And if I do stewardship, which I build a foundation for the future, I don’t have a short term mindset of a long term mindset. I think that honors Jesus Christ. And I believe honoring Jesus Christ is a good thing to do. Even though I am not a Christian or a Christ follower. I just think that’s something that’s really amazing. And I call this person a pre-Christian. She’s moving towards it.

John Coleman: Isn’t that amazing? You it shows not to go off in too much of a tangent, but it just shows what a powerful figure Jesus was that even in the midst of cultural debates about Christianity and different perspectives on that, I think the figure of Jesus and what Jesus stood for so very clearly in terms of loving others, in terms of caring for others, in terms of acting with integrity, is almost unassailable. And people see that and they’re drawn to it. I mean, that’s nothing original to say, but you really are drawn to it and it’s such a good reminder of that. When we talk a little bit about, you know, you’ve mentioned the ways you interacted with employees, etc.. How long were you CEO of the business? Remind me.

Phil Clemens: I was CEO from 1994 until I retired in 2015.

John Coleman: Wow. An incredibly long tenure. And what I’ve heard is you actually spent a ton of time on succession planning within that. And again, with the complexity of family ownership and presumably family leadership in the business, what does succession planning look like in a family owned business like this versus, you know, a publicly traded business or some other form?

Phil Clemens: Well, you have to be very intentional in succession planning. Our owners have come along and said we prefer to have a qualified family member leading this business. Now, if we don’t have a qualified family member, we won’t have the most qualified person in the business deleted family or not. So as I was looking towards my own retirement, I wanted to make sure that I could take to our independent board between three and five highly qualified family members. So I went through a process. It took almost 15 years of meeting with anybody who wanted to see what leadership was all about. And I met with them on a quarterly basis where they read a book. I talked to something I called Lessons in Leadership. What do leaders have to know? How do you really build your character? For instance, I spent a lot of time on, you know, about the cost of leadership. So often times people want to understand all the benefits of leadership and what are all the perks that come with it. I want to tell you what this if you don’t understand the cost, you’ll never appreciate the benefits. And I want to let them know that there’s a big cost to leadership. And if you’re not called to be there, you won’t be effective. And are you really called to be a leader and challenge them? Don’t just try to get a job that you think is going to be one that I can brag about and say, here’s what I’ve done, but one that you’re really saying, this is what I’m called to do because it’s not going to be easy.

John Coleman: That’s remarkable, Phil. And, you know, as you’ve put that challenge before people. How have they responded and what is that mentorship of the next generation look like over a period that long?

Phil Clemens: I think if you go back to the Old Testament, the Old Testament talks about telling the story and be able to tell it wherever you’re going. And I think it’s really important, as you mentor, the next generation. They don’t understand all the struggles that happened in the early days. They don’t understand how we got to be where we are today. And they need to know what are the struggles? What are the things we did right? I think one of the things with family business is you’ve got to tell the story, warts and all. Tell them what you did wrong and how did you learn from it. And again, let them know that you’re not perfect, that you’ve stumbled, you’ve done some things wrong. But here’s how we’ve corrected it and here’s how we go forward in doing that. And that’s really part of the whole mentoring process. And to sit down and say, Here’s lessons I’ve learned. I’ll tell you where I screwed up and stuff that I didn’t do right. And I want to prevent you from going down that trail.

John Coleman: Well, you’re describing a really thoughtful succession process, but also a complex one. And you’ve got a complex ownership structure. As you mentioned. You’ve got this whole third circle of accountability versus a typical business, and the business has been around for a very long time. Over that time, you must have gotten pressure to sell the business, either from parties coming in to try and buy the business or from family members who thought it might be time. Why has it been so important for you to maintain that family ownership structure?

Phil Clemens: Well, we actually look at this as being our legacy, and the legacy is an heirloom. And, you know, any time you receive an heirloom from the prior generation, you can do one or three things with it. You can put it on the mantle or put it there for everybody to look at and just see what it’s like. The other thing is you can say, well, this heirloom doesn’t mean a whole lot to me. Let me see if we can sell it and see what it’s worth. Or the third thing is you can treat it as a real stewardship issue. It’s been handed to you. How can I make it of more value to pass it to the next generation? And that’s really what we try to do is try to say, this is an heirloom, it’s our legacy and we would really like to pass to the next generation. Yes, we could sell it, make a lot of money. But that’s not what life’s all about. Life’s about how do we treat our employees? How do we treat our animals? How do we treat our customers? How do we treat our community? How do we become salt and light in so many different areas? And so the business is really it’s not ours, it’s God’s. And how do we take care of it for him? Because some day we will give an account for what we did with what he gave us.

John Coleman: I want to touch on one thing you mentioned, because it’s another unique element to this business that doesn’t exist anywhere, which is the treatment of animals. Obviously, this can be a tricky sector and I’m sure that some family members are more sensitive to that than others, as are people in the community, in the pork business, obviously you’re dealing with live animals and there are slaughterhouses involved, etc.. How do you, as a business and a family, think about the proper care of animals in that perspective?

Phil Clemens: We actually go back to the Bible, talks a lot about it, and you take care of God’s creation in the best way possible. And we try to have the best animal welfare programs in the world providing space, providing proper diets, proper medical care for our animals. We try to really treat them really in the best way possible. And I will tell you this, when you treat the animals in the best way possible, they do actually produce a much better meat product. So it’s a full circle that comes around. But we look and say, I’m going to actually answer to God, how did I take care of his creation? Did we treat those animals with respect even though we’re going to harvest them and we harvest 22,000 hogs per day, so we harvest a lot of hogs and we take care of a lot of animals, but we want to take care of them in a proper way.

John Coleman: That’s remarkable, Phil. I want to circle to another concept I’ve heard you all talk about before, and maybe you can articulate it for us, which was this transition from a family business to a business family. And obviously this starts to lead into just the way in which you consult other families now. But what does that mean exactly? And what did that mean for your company as you went through that transition?

Phil Clemens: Well, let me just explain part of the process this way. When you look in the mirror each and every day, you know, you look and say, what do I see in the mirror? Well, it looks exactly like me, but it’s exactly the opposite. The same is true of a family business versus a business family. Now, let me describe a family business, and most of them are family businesses here, especially in the United States. Family members feel they’re entitled to a job. They’re guaranteed a job. Sometimes a parent say, we mandate you come to work in the business. And that’s what a family business. I have a job because I have the right last name and I become the employer of last resort. If I can’t get a job anywhere else, the family will hire me when I come to work at a family business. The rules are very different for family members than they are for any other employees. Whether it’s wages, benefits, anything, they’re just different for family. When it comes to leadership, the family always chooses the leader. Now, on some families, it goes to the point in time it’s got to be the oldest bloodline family member. Some it has to be only a male. But family businesses can also choose an outsider to lead their business. But the key is the family always chooses the leader. Finally, the main goal of family business is family harmony. We all need to get along. And I tell you this, when you have 380 family shareholders, that’s not going to happen. So family harmony is really hard to achieve. That’s why the average family business only last 25 years, only one third go to the second generation, only 12% go to the third generation, less than 4% go to the fourth generation. Wow. Now, when it comes to a business, family, family members are encouraged to come into the business, but they have to be qualified. They don’t get there because of the great last name or because they’re an owner. They get there because they’re qualified to come into the business. And when you come into the business, the only hat you can wear is employee hat. You can’t wear a family hat. You can’t wear a shareholder hat. Only a family hat. When it comes to leadership in the business family. It’s always to the most qualified. If that’s family, it’s great. If it’s not family, that’s okay. Also, because it’s the most qualified when it comes to work rules. Work rules are the same for everybody. You don’t get special privileges just because you’re a shareholder or family member, you know? And the business is there to help the family owners. In a family business, it’s kind of like the family comes in and it’s like the IRS knocking at your door. I’m from the IRS. I’m here to help. Well, in the family. I’m from the family. I’m here to help you run this business. That’s not a help at all. So the main goal of a business family is profitability. And as a result of being profitable, you can work on family harmony. Two models, exactly the opposite of each other. The unfortunate part about it, I would say 80 to 90% of family businesses in the United States operate under the family business model. They’re going down a pathway of unsustainability. But to make the change to a business family is extremely hard. It is not an easy process. And we went through it. I had to terminate some of our long term family member employees. I had to terminate our largest shareholder as we went through this process again, but still put on that hat. They’re still a family member. There’s still an owner. They’re just not in the business.

John Coleman: That’s got to be a remarkably hard process, as you described. And then to immediately switch hats from kind of owner or employee or CEO having to terminate these folks to a family member, comforting them and trying to rebuild relationships is not a seamless transition. You know, you’re consulting a ton of other family businesses now and you’re giving back partially by trying to help families be more thoughtful about the way in which they run their business. Where do you see that go wrong for families right now, or what are some examples that there are folks running, family businesses listening now we’re investing in them. What are some of the most common errors that you see?

Phil Clemens: Well, I think that one of the biggest errors is the title of entitlement. I’m entitled as the owner. I get to do what I want to do. I get the call, all the shots. It really is all about me, even though they don’t say it in that way. But that’s what really happens. And they go down a path. It’s a great destruction. Let me just go back to one thing that I try to share with the people I consult with is let me tell you economically what happened to us. And we did not do this for economics. We did it because it was the right thing for us to do. Our stock gets valued by an outside agency each and every year. In 2000, we went through this change. Our stock was valued at $30.62 a share. Our share price in 2022 is $2,065 a share. It’s been in a remarkable growth. We didn’t do it for the economics. But when you do things the right way, you do get rewarded.

John Coleman: That’s an awesome reminder. Phil, one of the things you’ve emphasized throughout, I think implicitly is this idea of being a servant leader and even listening to the way in which you approached your job as CEO and as chairman. Think about animal care, employees community. How do you personally keep a focus on a servant leadership mindset when you’re in that position, and particularly in a family business or in an owner operated business where, you know, there are all kinds of temptations with the economic benefits, with the way in which people treat you, it’s easy to lose sight of the fact that you’re actually serving others. How do you stay grounded in that context and continue to be a servant leader?

Phil Clemens: Well, let me start with the economics and then go back to the mindset. One of the things that we did in our company is we have a very strong profit sharing plan and bonus programs. Our bonus programs start with our hourly employees before any management can get a bonus. Hourly employees have to get their full bonus. And when it goes up the line that the supervisors or the other people get their bonuses, but the officers do not get any bonus until the people underneath them get a full bonus. And we’ve had years where the officers got zero bonus and everybody else in the company got full bonuses. Again, that’s putting yourself as the last one in the line rather than the first one. You know, the average business, the CEO, he’s the first one to get a bonus. And if there’s anything left over, then we’ll give it to others. We do just the opposite. And again, it’s because we have this servant leader mindset. One of the questions I like to ask people, how can I help you? Or How can I serve you? And it’s surprising when, as the CEO, when you come down and say, How can I serve you? They look and say, Oh, you’re the boss. I need to serve you. No, no. How can I help you? Because if I can help you, in reality, we help everyone. And how do we do that? And it’s a real mindset of when the person said we actually should change our name from the chief executive office to the lead servant. And to me, that’s what we want to be, is put others first. And when you put others first, it’s surprising how you get actually rewarded. But you don’t do it because you’re getting rewarded. It’s just the right thing to do.

John Coleman: Once again, what we see time and again is it creates an exceptional culture. And again, I firmly believe that culture is the greatest competitive advantage in business. It’s the hardest to replicate. You can’t flip a switch and create a culture and creating a business that people want to work in, where you’re getting the best talent, where they’re staying, where they’re dedicated to your mission, can create extraordinary performance and excellence in the business. But no one works for a leader who comes across as selfish or narcissistic and wants to be that dedicated to the culture. It just doesn’t happen. You almost have to have a leader who’s humble, who’s willing to elevate others, and who’s a servant leader to create the kind of culture that can outperform.

Phil Clemens: Absolutely. Let me just give you one story that just happened last year. Our current CEO told me he said we had an employee, a long time employee came up and said, I’d like to sit down and talk with you. I’m leaving the company. And the CEOs thought, okay, what did we do wrong? Why does he want to talk to me before? Why is he leaving? He came up and he said, Well, I need to move out of the area because I have some close family relatives that are sick. But he said, I want to come up and tell you how much this company has meant to me. Before we had one of our employee meetings, you ask everybody, is there anybody we can be praying for? And he said, I raised my hand. He said, My wife is very sick. And you said, Can we stop and pray for her right now? He said, You won’t know what that did for me. When the CEO takes time to pray for me and my family, he said, it’s the hardest decision I ever made to leave this company because this company means so much to me. But I’ve got to take care of my family.

John Coleman: Isn’t that extraordinary? I mean, that’s extraordinary. And you just love it because you feel as a leader. One of the things that’s closest to your heart, I think, or at least I know this on my end, is you want the people under your care to flourish. You want the people that you’re entrusted with leading to flourish, to enjoy their lives, to be fulfilled, to have a sense of purpose and meaning. And again, to hear that from someone. And to hear that that’s clicking and that they’re invested in it. It’s just one of the greatest rewards I think that you can have as a leader.

Phil Clemens: Absolutely is.

John Coleman: So, Phil, we’re going to do something fun now. We’re going to transition to the lightning round. We could go forever. And this is a super interesting conversation for The Lightning Round. We like to keep it punchy. We answer in kind of 60 to 90 seconds. Some of the questions will be a little bit fun. Some will be a little bit deeper. And then we always wrap up by asking people, what are you learning through God’s word right now that you’d want to share with others? And we prep people for that because some of us like me are bad at remembering verses. So give us a minute to collect your thoughts if you if you want to, about what you’re going through recently. But to kind of start the lightning round with a fun one, you work in the pork business or you’ve worked in the pork business. I imagine you, like me, are a fan of various pork products, whether it’s bacon or pork sausage or pork chops. Do you have a favorite pork product and how do you like to prepare it?

Phil Clemens: Bacon By far, bacon makes everything taste better. In fact, we gave our shareholders all a sweatshirt there that says Bacon makes everything taste better because it just it adds flavor to everything.

John Coleman: I’ll tell you, the first time I realized that was the first time I had chocolate with bacon in it. Bacon, chocolate. And I thought, oh, my gosh, there’s nothing that bacon doesn’t make better. Yeah, it’s true. On a more serious note, we’ve talked about a bunch of different lessons today. If there was one. One key message you could deliver to the CEO of a family business right now who is a family member, someone running a family business. What key piece of advice would you give them?

Phil Clemens: Develop a thick skin. People will say things to possibly hurt you. Just allow things to go right on through. Don’t dwell on them. Develop real thick skin.

John Coleman: As one of three brothers and a father of four, I just can’t imagine that siblings and family members would ever say anything hurtful to one another. Phil That never happens in our family. That’s.

Phil Clemens: It happens. It happens whether you’re a Christian family or not. That’s for sure.

John Coleman: It’s for sure. You know, this is such a unique area. One of the questions I have for you is, is there a good book or two that you would recommend to people thinking about family businesses?

Phil Clemens: Well, there’s a couple actually a book that’s not about family business, but I think it’s really good. Andy Stanley wrote a book called Principle of the Path, and the principle is direction, not intention determines destination. And so you really have to examine what direction am I going in, because every path leads to a destination and am I going to my desired destination or not?

John Coleman: Well, you didn’t know this Phil, but you won me over, Andy he’s my pastor. I go to Buckhead Church in Atlanta and I remember the original sermon with the Principle of the Path. And then I read the book and man, Andy just has such a magical talent for synthesizing complex topics, for making them simple and for making them. You hear it and you think, Oh my gosh, that’s obviously true, and it can help you reorient your life. And that’s such a talent, I think, for a leader which which I think Andy is, is to take the complex, make it simple, make it powerful, and make it such that it’s practical for people’s lives.

Phil Clemens: And his new book, Better Decisions, Fewer Regrets, you know, asking those five different questions, they can really help you in business to say, how am I really doing in business? From integrity to wisdom, just all the questions he asks are really, really important.

John Coleman: All right. One more fun question, one more serious question, and then we’ll turn to what you’re learning from scripture. You work in a pretty interesting family business. You’ve talked to a lot of family businesses. What is the most interesting family business that you’ve encountered?

Phil Clemens: I would say this every family business is unique, but each one is the same. And I would say that the family business said probably one that I worked with, which is really dysfunctional. They were in the cabinet making business and the father was one that. Just would not let go. And they just. If you talk about ways they could screw things up in different ways, they just couldn’t get out of the way of killing each other. It’s really a shame, but I think that’s probably one of the most unique businesses. How that people can treat family within a business is just unbelievable.

John Coleman: What’s the and we’ll do one last question. What is the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

Phil Clemens: I think the best piece is engage brain before you put your tongue into action. You know, so often times we think we’re really smart. We can answer real quick. But if we stop and think first before we talk, it’s really, really important.

John Coleman: Here’s the danger. Phil, everybody listening to this is listening. In the past few years since I started hosting knows that I probably don’t do that often enough on this podcast. So that’s good advice for me to make sure I’m thinking things through before I spit something out, maybe to just close this out. Phil, I mean, you’re obviously such a thoughtful believer in your walk right now. What is God teaching you that you might want to share with others?

Phil Clemens: Well, I think God’s teaching right now is one of the greatest gifts he’s given us is choice. You know, the old saying is, you can choose your choices, but you can’t choose the consequences of your choices. Once you choose them, they make you. And if you go all the way back to Genesis chapter two in the Garden of Eden, he gave Adam and Eve a choice, and he said, There’s a consequence if you don’t make the right choice. And if you go to the Bible, there’s so many times that God has given us choices. You know, if you think of Jeremiah, he talks about, I have plans for you, I want a hope and to succeed. That’s a consequence of he says in the verses right after that, who you’re going to choose to follow. And that goes back to Joshua. Joshua, 24 Joshua asks the people, Whom will you serve the God of your fathers or the other gods around you? He says, For me, and my household, we choose to follow the Lord. And, you know, unfortunately the nation didn’t follow. But you look at Jesus, he says, Matthew 24, he says their choice Are you going to serve God? Are you going to serve money? You can only serve one. Which one are you going to choose? And there’s consequences for choosing either one. And I think to me, I’m constantly drawn to God. Why did you give me all these choices? Well, he wants us to be thinking. And how do we learn to make the right choice day in and day out?

John Coleman: Man. Phil, that’s such a good word and such a great way to conclude the podcast. It’s obvious talking to you why so many people respect you and seek you out for advice on these topics, and just a reflection of the great leadership that you’ve had through the years. So thank you so much for coming on today and sharing what you’ve learned with the listeners for the Faith Driven Investor podcast.

Phil Clemens: It’s my pleasure to do it.