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Meet Brett Hagler, who transformed from a tech entrepreneur to pioneering market-based solutions for the global housing crisis through New Story. As one of the first nonprofits accepted into Y Combinator, New Story is revolutionizing how we think about affordable housing by combining philanthropy, technology, and investment capital to create sustainable homeownership opportunities in Latin America. Learn how New Story achieved a 100% repayment rate on their housing projects while delivering both strong financial returns and life-changing social impact for thousands of families.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ -following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 3 Hey, everyone. All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Hosts and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Great to have you with us. What is our pod for the end of February? We’re joined by a really special guest today, Brett Hagler, who will be joining Luke and I in the FDI podcast studio. Brett’s the CEO and co -founder of New Story. Luke, Brett, great to have you guys in here. Brett, pumped to hear about some of your work with New Story and what you guys are doing to help thousands of families get homes and properties in Latin America. This will be a really fun episode and I think a fun kind of angle for Faith Driven Investors to look at the problem of homelessness and all of that. But before we dive in, Brett, and get some of who you are and what you’ve been working on, how are you guys doing?

Brett Hagler Doing great. I’m excited to be on with you guys. Love the pod. So it’s an honor to be here.

Luke Roush It’s not often, Richard, that we get to focus on problems that affect two billion people, billion with a B. And so the scope and scale of what we’re going to talk about today has me excited as well, and nobody’s been more on the front lines than what Brett’s doing here. So this is an exciting day.

Richard Cunningham It is. So Brett, Goldman Sachs called you one of the top 100 most intriguing entrepreneurs. We got to hear about that in and of itself. The word intriguing, which I just love. And you’re also a founder of a nonprofit. And I know it’s got for -profit angles, which we’ll get into here in a little bit with this being the FDI pod specifically. But man, maybe just start us with a little bit of your kind of story and who you are, way God kind of rescued you in an awesome way post -college and just how that led into new story.

Brett Hagler Sure. Yeah, I’ll just give everybody context. We’ll give some background, but this is definitely about investment. So we’ll talk more about how we believe and I’ve learned after 10 years of doing this, that investment and market -based solutions is, in my opinion, the best way to help the most people. So we’ll get there and I’ll kind of talk the back story. So yeah, I, from a faith perspective, didn’t grow up a strong believer at all, kind of lost my way in high school. It was a stereotypical jock in high school. I had a very rare form of cancer my senior year in high school. And that changed a lot of my plans. I was going to try to play basketball, college, blah, blah. And, you know, during that time, it was, I was definitely praying. I was definitely hoping God would save me because it was serious cancer. And he did. And instead of me kind of turning to him and, you know, making my life surrendered to God, I kind of went the opposite way. And so I went off to college at Florida State and yeah, lived a life that if you would have asked somebody what I’m doing today, then this would probably be the last thing that they would have said and just wasn’t following the Lord was using a lot of maybe skills is the wrong word, but using characteristics that God gave me for a lot of the wrong things. And that led to just all types of pursuits. You know, I call it, someone told me it was the three G’s, which is gratitude and generosity and God. It was a girl’s gold and glory. And I’m sure, you know, a lot of people, of course, have kind of gone through that phase and obviously learned that it’s empty. There’s really nothing there. And thankfully about a year and a half after college, the Holy Spirit met me. And I loved entrepreneurship. I love startups. I loved business in college. I was, you know, reading a book a week about all the biographies that many people listening probably read. I was obsessed, but I wasn’t a believer. And I was lost pursuing, you know, the things that don’t matter. And I did a first startup right out of college and it was a for -profit company and how God met me was actually through a venture capitalist and it just kind of goes to show for those listening. I had no idea he was a believer, but I was very attracted to what he had done, what he accomplished, how he held himself. And he was a role model from afar. And I was lucky enough to get a chance to sit down with him for lunch. I was a young 23 year old kid. I kind of begged to get on his calendar, blah, blah, blah. And I get there and I asked him about leadership and maybe if he wants to invest and long story short, in a very natural way, he starts talking about Jesus and I kind of asked him a question of how he thinks about leadership and he told me about servant leadership and I’m like, what’s that? And that was kind of a softball for him to talk about Jesus and leadership. And from that point on, Luke and Richard, that was kind of the spark that God used to get my attention. I mean, to kind of reframe what I thought living a life, surrendered to Jesus looks like. And it was done through a venture capitalist investor was kind of the spark that caught my attention. And after that, I kind of make a total 180, go all in, get baptized. Really nobody else, none of my friends were doing this. It was all, you know, kind of by myself with the Holy Spirit. Shortly after that, two things happened. My best friend, which many people probably have heard of or know is a guy named Mike Arrieta, we grew up in middle school together and he kind of shortly after me started following the Lord and so the two of us together in our early twenties started just running after Jesus and that ended up taking myself and Mike on a missions trip to Haiti and that was back in 2014 and on that trip is when the kind of an original spark for news story was created and that was just seeing, you know, the devastating, devastating reality of what it looks like to not have life’s most basic human needs. And that was kind of the spark of it all.

Luke Roush How did you think about, so I’ve been on trips like that, where you kind of have a spark and your heart breaks for something that you see, you realize like, wait a second, there’s gotta be a better way. Coming out of that trip. How did you contextualize, like, what was the on -ramp into actually getting in the game the way you’d got in the game following that experience?

Brett Hagler Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, I was, I was pretty young. You know, I was 24 years old. I loved entrepreneurship. You know, my faith was on fire. And so I had a lot of energy and I had a lot of passion. I would say, you know, people talk about ignorance is bliss. And if you know then you wouldn’t have got started of all the problems, et cetera. And, you know, as cliche as it sounds, I just tried to start small. You know, I think if I would’ve tried to say, how do we create systematic change in multiple countries and get into disrupting the financing system and redefine what it looks like for property rights, like, I didn’t know enough, you know, I didn’t know enough, but I got started. I got started very small. I said, you know, how can we try to literally help a few families get access to life -changing housing? And then through that action, God introduced me to two other co -founders in Matthew and Alexandria, and we were trying to come at this problem back then just in a different way with a unique angle, and back then we used even more technology and we applied to Y Combinator. My background again, was not doing things in the developing world. I didn’t have this kind of a nonprofit background. I loved the stuff Y Combinator was preaching and teaching. And so we applied and we actually became one of the first nonprofits to ever go through Y Combinator. And so to answer your question, Luke, that was God putting a lot of things together in a short period of time, and we kind of got started pretty fast.

Luke Roush So wait a second, how many nonprofits, I mean, you said it was one of the first ones, I mean, it had to be maybe the first one.

Brett Hagler It was the second one.

Unidentified Yeah

Luke Roush Okay. So what did that look like? I mean, you show up at that time, they were still doing all their cohorts in Silicon Valley. Is that right?

Brett Hagler Yes.

Luke Roush So you still have to tell people, Hey, this is kind of what I’m fired up about. Like how did that go? I mean, need to hear more.

Richard Cunningham Yeah. So we moved out to San Francisco. I ended up living there for almost five years and we went through the summer of 2015 was our Y Combinator batch and I freaking loved it. It was incredible. I mean, I felt at the beginning and during most of it, like the highest level imposter syndrome that you could imagine because it was so hard to get into, I didn’t have any prestigious accolades or fancy schools or, you know, and so it just felt like, wow, God really wanted me and us there. And of this organization that’s trying to help vulnerable families in Haiti and El Salvador that don’t have basic housing, like what are we doing here? And honestly, we just made the most of it. We were on fire. We were so passionate. It was definitely a season that I do not regret how much we worked and how much energy we had because it truly felt like a once in a lifetime opportunity that God created. And so it also really shaped the DNA of how we think about building new story. And even though what we’re doing today is entirely different strategy wise than we were doing 10 years ago, the DNA of how to think, how to imagine, how to get started, all the things that the best startups kind of learn and go through. We were so lucky to be taught that at a young age. And it really shaped my thinking, our DNA. And I’m just so grateful for that experience.

Richard Cunningham That’s cool. All right. So selfishly, I kind of have to like recap the story here from my own brain, not as fast as you guys, but there’s a lot of fun synergies and overlap too that I’m loving. So you got young jock, Luke and I resonate deeply with that. Just like the sports world, Luke more than me. And then you go off the Florida state, John Coleman, our other FDI podcast host will love that. He’s a Tallahassee native. We’ll love the Florida state roots. The Haiti kind of awakening moment and the kind of birthing of new story alongside our buddy, Mike Arietta, another kind of fun synergy. Ironically, Luke is where Suzanne Daniel, one of our FDI podcast guests a few weeks back, who also just spoke on the FDI conference is where she kind of came alive for the Pilgrim Foundation and Suzanne Daniel story. So a lot of just like fun threads here, but anyways, young founder, a powerful experience in Haiti goes to YC with a nonprofit has this like amazing kind of business building experience. And I’ve got friends here in town, Brett, who are great admirers. I’m here in Austin, Texas, Chandler Bolton, particular, another young founder who just like loves watching you run a nonprofit, such a missional organization, like he runs his for -profit venture. And I’m sure that was kind of bred into you in that YC background and some of the reading you did and just the passion you naturally have. So help me understand kind of like the original theory of change of new story, what you brought into YC, why they accepted you in the first place. And then you mentioned the mission and kind of the way you’re attacking the mission, if you will, has changed in present day, kind of bring us from that journey that started in 2014 to kind of where we are now.

Brett Hagler Totally. Yeah. So our mission today is to empower families to transform their lives through land and home ownership. And so that goes back to what Luke mentioned. Unfortunately, there’s almost 2 billion people today that live in inadequate housing. That does not mean 2 billion people on the street, but it’s 2 billion people that are living in conditions that are completely inadequate, that you would not want anybody, you know, to live in. You probably wouldn’t want your dog to live in. And, you know, the size of that is so big. It can be overwhelming, right? And so we are doing our best to help those families have access to life -changing land and home ownership. So that hasn’t changed or why hasn’t changed. Our big North star hasn’t changed, but how we go about accomplishing that has completely changed. And I, you know, tell my team all the time that you learn by doing and action produces information, right? And so in the beginning, our first like five years, and we’re 10 years old now, we love innovation. We love technology. We still will have that’s in us. But in the first five years, I think we over index on building technology and trying a lot of like ways to cut down the cost of a house with technology or more novel approaches, which is important, but we weren’t seeing the full picture. So with housing, there are so many pieces to the puzzle. And when you think about first principles with housing and land, in my opinion, it’s not about how do you reduce the cost to build the actual unit by 20 percent. It’s the whole value chain. So you have to think of, well, where’s the land? How do you buy the land? What about the infrastructure that comes in, the sewage, the plumbing, the roads, the electricity? How do you work with municipalities to get permitting and fast track everything? How do you help a family build a credit profile? How do you then help that family have access to legally titled land that can be recognized by a bank so they can unlock a mortgage? These are all things that we weren’t thinking about our first five years because we were just trying to focus on like the end product of the house. And so now, like 80 percent of organization is focused on all those beginning steps, the first principles approach to catalyze. Then you’re able to bring in whether it’s normal construction or a novel technology after you have the foundation set. So that was kind of the biggest learning. And when we realized that we had to completely evolve really our strategy and our strategy started to evolve more towards how do you think about investment, how do you think about helping families to be at a place where you could underwrite them for a mortgage? And that means it’s the basics of capitalism. It’s like, OK, they need to have a credit profile. They need to have legal property title that has to have market value and able to unlock bigger financing. So that was kind of the big learning.

Luke Roush Well, you know, here in the US, right, we talked about systems being broken and they are. But my family lived in Indonesia for a handful of years. And you start to realize in a lot of these countries that are home for these two billion folks, there are a lot of systemic things, whether it’s just basic property ownership rights, title, this idea of like title insurance that we get in the US that is largely a dumb expense. But it does kind of help to reassure everyone that you own what you think you own. You know, this concept in most of the countries, probably where you’ve operated, Brett, is somewhat foreign. And so until you kind of get after some of these systemic things and you realize just a multifaceted nature of the problem, you can focus on the end goal at the expense of like these process steps that need to be in place to be able to ensure that if you get the end goal done, it actually sticks and it’s generationally changing the trajectory of your family. So maybe talk a little bit about like how you discovered what else is required to be able to address issues that you’re ultimately addressing really successfully.

Brett Hagler Yeah, I’m going to walk you guys kind of through one project example. I think that’ll help. And so this project, it’s all market based. The unit economics of it are positive. It’s not subsidized on purpose, and we can come back to that. And it also brings in investment. So what we’ve learned is that, like, if you think about an underserved family that is around the poverty line or is a low income family, they don’t have a few main things that they need for long term homeownership. Right. So they usually don’t have a trustworthy credit profile. That’s a problem. You usually can’t trust or validate the land that they own. So if you can’t trust the land property title and if you don’t really know who owns what land. And then thirdly, if you don’t know the value of that land, how are you ever going to then go and try to get a loan and use collateral when you don’t have it. Right. And so what we’ve done is we’ve said, hey, why don’t we start first with land ownership as kind of the pathway to homeownership? And so we’ve created this model that we think is definitely effective, but it’s simple. And it’s this it’s we go in, we buy land with investment. And let’s say we buy enough land for 500 housing lots. We’ll then work with 500 families to make payments, to buy their land first before the house. And so families will go on a monthly payment program to pay for their land. And then we also are using investment to bring in infrastructure, life changing infrastructure so that they can have clean water and electricity and plumbing, Wi -Fi, telecom, et cetera. And so they’re paying for that while our investment is putting all the infrastructure in. And then once they’re done paying, well, they’ve now paid, which is about 12 to 24 months. So they have a credit profile that they didn’t have before. They now own a valuable asset, which is a land plot that has appreciated in value because the infrastructure is now installed. And that can be appraised and has a market value. And now they’re in a totally different place once they own that valuable piece of land to then go get a home loan, because you can actually underwrite it. It’s the basics, the beauty of capitalism. Or if they want, they could build their own house. But for us, we’ve learned, ah, the catalyzing thing is like to be obsessed with land ownership in the beginning, because that’s the gateway to make everything else happen. And so that’s what we’ve really focused on. It’s been quite successful. The last project we just did was about 400 lots. We ended up having a 100 percent payment rate for the portfolio. We exceeded returns and would have, by any measure, good market returns for that project. And now families are in the phase of starting to build homes or get a home loan. So I kind of that’s a way to think about it.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, that’s helpful. So you’ve got operations in Mexico, El Salvador, Bolivia and Haiti. You kind of explained what one project can look like there. But putting yourself in the shoes of a faith driven investor listening to this podcast, there’s a number of quote unquote risks to mitigate. Like there’s a very catalytic opportunity here, but it’s international work in Latin America. I’m curious about the mechanics of the investment and how you kind of think about returns from kind of this new story capital side of the operation. You mentioned 100 percent repayment rate, which is really powerful. So I’d love to hear you double click on that a little bit more. But I’m a faith driven investor, someone who’s motivated by this solution. I’m thinking about it. And I’m like, am I really willing to put market rate capital on the line here? Or is this a more patient concessionary play or something people you find more doing from a philanthropic angle? Because I think how how you thought about this is really powerful.

Brett Hagler Yeah, so those are super important questions, you know, from the highest level. My belief is for this to really scale, which for us, I feel like God has called us to truly try to impact millions of people with this model. I believe you have to get market returns. That doesn’t mean that we’re trying to have the top one percent returns of all time. But I believe you need to have good returns. That’s like a double scoop of one good returns. And then two truly 10 out of 10 life changing impact. Right. I think we’ve all kind of gotten different views in the last couple of years on ESG, impact investing, like all that. So much of that. You can’t draw the direct correlation to the life changing impact. Right. And so with this, you get both. And it’s just my belief that you’re not going to get to big scale if you don’t have the good returns, because you’re not going to be incentivizing other lenders, other investors to do this. Right. And so what we want to do from an impact perspective is we want to demonstrate what this looks like. We want to say, hey, there is a massive underserved market. It is deeply undersupplied. But there is demand. And we’ve proven this out. And we believe that you have to have a fair profit with a good return. And if that then you can really grow it. And it’s somewhat, I want to say, unlimited, but it has so much more potential for scale. So that’s our belief. Now, getting there, obviously, it’s challenging. And so I’d say the main thing is we have a team that is obsessed with this problem. Right. And we are building a team around that. We’re building our case studies around that. And we’re trying to be the best in the world at this particular niche, which turns out to be a pretty large market. And we’ll go into all the details of like how we hedge the risk and all of that. But we try our best to have it as risk -migrated as possible, knowing that there’s a whole waterfall of how we do that. But we can dive into that if you want, Richard.

Luke Roush One of the things that I’m struck by, you know, so we talked about the enormity of the problem and one of the things that you were just pointing towards is the importance of market -based solutions. And so the statistic, I think, is, you know, only 10 percent of the current housing need would be solved if all of global philanthropy and government housing subsidies were put in play. So like back to how do you activate market -based solutions at scale so that this isn’t just kind of a bandaid. It’s not just, you know, one out of 10 communities, it’s 10 out of 10 communities that can be reached. Yeah, maybe just talk a little bit about that journey. I mean, you know, my perspective, again, in like sort of emerging markets, if you can have less than a 5 percent non -performing loan and PL rate, you’re doing really great. And so for you to be at 100 percent payment rate, really remarkable. Maybe just talk about peel that back a little bit. Why is it so successful?

Brett Hagler Yeah. So let me go through two parts there. First, on the you mentioned some of the math, you know, that was a big learning that we had five years ago. Jim Collins talks about the brutal facts. Find out the brutal facts. And that was a big one where we were like, OK, if we’re just going to raise philanthropy, we’re going to be the best in the world at raising philanthropy. And we got all the government subsidies. How big of a dent could we put in this problem? And it was very depressing to know that it’s literally less than 10 percent. Right. That’s just the enormity of the cost of the housing crisis. And so we’re like, OK, we have to shift so that families can participate in the pool of capital, which is capital markets and lending that actually is big enough to make a significant debt. So that was like the big idea, the big learning. And then so the 100 percent payment portfolio. Let me walk you through that real quick. So in our model, if we do, let’s say, a thousand lot projects, right? We have a thousand families that in the very beginning of that project, we already have signed up as customers that are going to pay for their land plots. Once we have that and once we have the permits for the municipality, then we bring in an investment and then we buy the land and we start doing the infrastructure. Families are making monthly payments on their plan. But because we are taking a risk on them. Right. What we say is, hey, we want to have kind of like a little insurance as well. And we set up what’s called a waitlist group that we created. And so if there’s a thousand families making payments for their land, that’s kind of the main group. We have this waitlist group that’s about 20 percent of the total. And they’re making payments into an interest bearing savings account. So we’ve created a way for them to save, be on a waitlist, know that they’re probably not going to be part of this batch or project. But there’s such a mismatch in supply and demand that they want to do it. So if anybody from the main group has to drop out, maybe a kid gets sick or they have to move, they get their money back. And we don’t have a hit to cash flow because we can backfill it with somebody from the waitlist. It’s simple. Right. But it’s a way of, you know, taking a simple, great idea and taking it seriously. And it’s just like this mismatch in supply and demand. And how can we use some of New Story’s skills around marketing and sales and setting things up so that we’re de -risking, working with a vulnerable demographic?

Speaker 3 That’s cool.

Richard Cunningham Brett, maybe put some of like the names and stories to faces on both sides of the aisle here that you’re bridging together. So you’ve got some of these families you’re talking about. Maybe help us understand kind of the demographic of that family in Latin America and then also those who are partnering with you on the New Story capital side to be the investors who are kind of willing to blaze this trail. And so, yeah, this is a project that I think is worthwhile. I want to journey with New Story.

Brett Hagler Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, the families we work with are families that it’s funny when you work in the kind of developing world markets, when you ask families their dream, not all the time, but very, very for the most common answer you’re going to get is a home. Right. And people typically think because it is true just by the data, the status quo is that’s going to take them 15, maybe 20 years. That is the status quo that has been that’s just reality, because when you don’t have other interventions, that’s how long it takes. And so people will say a family, a mother and a father with three kids, you know, they’ll say one day I’m going to save up enough and I’m going to, you know, try to buy land. And I’m going to slowly build my house over 10 to 15 years. That’s the status quo. And so we’re able to go into that family who has, you know, kids of all different ages and say, hey, that could actually take two years. That’s what we’ve done. It is a totally different calculus to think about this dream of home ownership and land ownership. So they have a place for generations to build their family, to build their church community, build all these things can happen in two years.

Richard Cunningham And real quick, double click on that, though, is where do they find a new story and how do you guys find them? Because I think that’s a key piece of the puzzle as well. Sorry to cut you off, because I don’t want to take it too far down this rabbit trail.

Brett Hagler Yeah. So we find them by, you know, it looks more like a real estate kind of analysis of where are areas that have need. That’s kind of the unfortunately the easiest one. And then how do we work with a municipality that wants to do permitting, rezoning, et cetera. We can buy land at the price. It’s going to be affordable and can deliver a return. And then we have a really good marketing and kind of brand, you know, opportunity where we go out into the community, showcase studies, show that this is possible. And we have a whole like content kind of it’s called the home journey is the program that we’ve created. And that’s what families are seeing and learning. And then the main thing, Richard, is the best example is when it’s been done close by and so they know people and word of mouth spreads just like anything that, hey, this is like this is actually not too good to be true. This is possible. And I want the opportunity to own land. And so if I have anything saved or if I get remittances, like this is the opportunity because it’s actually affordable and it’s not a gift. You know, they don’t want it for free. They want the dignified process to just afford something. So that’s kind of how we how we do it. And, you know, these are as so many of the listeners know, I mean, these are incredible, hardworking people that have dreams, that have potential, that have creativity. And when you don’t have the basic, basic, basic human needs of safety, of shelter, of a bathroom, of a shower, you know, many families is the first time that they’ve ever had their own bathroom and shower because the infrastructure has been created and it’s in their home. So it just truly unlocks potential when you’re not in an overcrowded, you know, tiny room with a family of five and you’re trying to study or you’re trying to improve your work. Yes, that’s why we’re so passionate about it.

Richard Cunningham That’s cool. And so then the other side of the coin is that investor component. And so those folks that are willing to kind of partner with you guys to go into these places and buy the land and kind of infuse the investment capital. So what do those conversations look like and who are those folks? And obviously no specifics, but just what is the profile of that person look like getting involved?

Brett Hagler Yeah, today and the next by two years, it’s primarily been high net worth families and family offices with our current fund that we have right now. A lot of it’s faith driven investors, not all, but it’s the majority is faith driven investors, which has been incredible to have the support of this network. I think with time, because, you know, what we’re doing is it’s just so expensive and it’s such a big problem. We definitely want to blend high net worth family offices, faith driven network and institutions, pension funds that we’re going to work with local institutions in country that have, you know, big pools of capital that can be deployed. And right now, these next couple of years from an impact perspective, coming in and really demonstrating this, you know, proving that this is a massive, massive opportunity because of how underserved it is. That’s the kind of opportunity for investors right now. You know, one analogy that I would say is one of my favorite examples of entrepreneurship, and we’ve actually got to know some of the leaders at this company at Walmart and, you know, Walmart. Sam Walton has been somebody that I love his book, Made in America. And, you know, in the very beginning, when he was running around trying to create these stores in small town America or in more rural areas, you know, all big players at the time were like, why are you wasting your time going out into these small town, you know, areas with this concept? It’s never going to work there. It’s not a big enough market, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And obviously, you know, it’s been one of the best entrepreneurial stories there is. And I think for future investors, there is a lot of other opportunities out there that can look similar, not to that exact example. But like, you know, for us, just as an example, what we’re betting on is there is so much opportunity in these locations that we’re working that are not like super dense. They’re not super rural. You know, they have probably a population of on the low end, 50 ,000 people on the high end, maybe a couple hundred thousand people. There is so much opportunity to buy land, do infrastructure, help families become land and homeowners. And sure, big developers aren’t doing it right now because they see opportunity costs, they see all these other things. But that is what we want to be best in the world at. And I think there’s so many other things for investors to think about of social problems, of how that same, you know, kind of philosophy can be applied.

Luke Roush Maybe speak a little bit about just for all the faith driven investors that are listening and thinking about, hey, maybe this is something that I should be waiting into. How do you position it? Thinking about debt versus equity, current income versus, you know, OK, it’s going to accrue and then be paid in maturity, you know, liquidity profile, maybe just get into the tactics of that so that folks can then say, all right, hey, maybe this is for me.

Brett Hagler Yeah, totally. Let me back up for a second. So it’s a little funky because it’s a hybrid. So we have a news story. Kind of think about philanthropy. And just for context, that’s its own entity. And what is funding that is philanthropy. And that’s just going for R &D and then hiring extra staff, right? So extra staff that a management fee wouldn’t cover, right? And we’re so lucky to have incredible, committed people that fund that. And then we have news story capital and news story. Capital is the investment arm. It’s what’s doing all the hard costs. It’s buying land. It’s doing infrastructure. It’s all the investments. And so investing into news story capital looks like a for profit investment like you would as an LP. And the current structure would be an equity investment. It’s about a five year term. And we basically have two options, two classes where one, you could get paid back an annual interest rate and then at the end, you know, get the returns. And then we have another class that’s a little higher on the return, but it’s kind of all at the end of five years. And then the other thing that’s cool about that is you get to see. And with the current fund we have right now, we’re aiming to reach about 15000 families with this product. And it’s so clear to see it. It’s project related. And so you get a lot of updates along the way with the impact.

Richard Cunningham Man, that’s powerful. You know, Brett, we just had the I guess just is not the right word is back on February 7th. But it’s been a couple of weeks now. The global faith driven investor kind of annual conference, 100 and something plus watch parties, thousands of attendees around the globe. And we talk a lot about in the kind of FDI world, this language when it comes to solving massive problems like this, a two billion person problem, the concept of building, giving or investing. And I love that your journey kind of encapsulates all three of those. Like you saw the problem when you went to Haiti. New story was born. You’ve invited charitable, well -intentioned, amazing people to join you on that journey. And I love that now you’re also saying, wait, I recognize that this problem could be tackled with a far larger pool of capital that it can also drive almost a kind of capitalistic like mindset to create sustainability in these economies and power people. It doesn’t just turn into a handout type model. And so I love that you kind of encapsulate your ministry now, for -profit investment arm encapsulates kind of all three of those angles. So I want to hand you the floor for kind of just like any final closing comments on like where new story is headed next, some of the things you’re most pumped about. And then we’re going to ask you our kind of go to main question that we ask at the end of every FDI pod. But I want to kind of finish there real quickly.

Brett Hagler Yeah, I mean, we kind of have been starting 2025. We are coming out of almost two or three years of trying to get this model right, having case studies, getting pilots and thank God those have gone really well. And that has given me now the confidence to go forth, to raise more capital, to hire a more senior team, et cetera. So honestly, I’m just truly so excited about this year and this chapter that God has us in. It was not easy getting here and not easy transforming the organization to be more market based solutions. That was a very difficult couple of years, if you could probably imagine internally, externally was a really big evolution. And we’re on the other side of that now. And so I’m very excited. You know, we’ll be raising capital over the next couple of years. And I think, you know, to your point, Richard, about combining kind of philanthropy, investing, business, doing this for a decade now, working in areas where there’s, you know, there’s real poverty, there is real need. I think using philanthropy is really great when you can put it towards R &D and trying to demonstrate something and de -risk something. Right. So the philanthropy right now is it’s used to de -risk the model. Right. So we are able to go in to riskier places, try things, because I’m not putting investment towards that. Right. This isn’t a venture capital fund. This is we’re thinking like investors. And so combining those two things has been, you know, a hybrid for us. But I think where God has had us and it’s going to lead to, hopefully, what I believe is more people impacted, a more sustainable model and something that I think, you know, hopefully, a new story in the faith driven investor world. There’s many other examples like this. So we’re definitely not the only ones. But the belief of bringing market based solutions and investment to some of the world’s biggest problems that the status quo would say, oh, we need to bring charity to that or we need to bring government aid to that. But how do we think more like a business mindset and think like investors? In my opinion, that’s how you’re actually going to reach the most people in need. So that’s what I’m really excited about. We’ll be hiring more people and raising more capital for it.

Luke Roush Before we go to what God’s taught you recently, Brett, and how he’s spoken to you through his word, just a comment. I think it’s a great way of just framing up. What is the role of philanthropic capital versus maybe concessionary capital, where you think you have a business model, but you’re still proving it out, you’re going to take some currency risk, whatever. And then real kind of at market risk adjusted return investing. And there’s a bunch of shades of gray in there. But I think it’s a great way of really answering the question that Richard asked around builders, givers and investors. How do all three groups collectively collaborate to get after big problems like housing and security? And that’s what is just awesome to see play out, as he said, all three forms woven into the context of news stories. So really cool. Absolutely.

Richard Cunningham All right, Brett. Well, root us in some truth to take us home here, man. This is the question we like to ask at the end of every pod. And that’s just what’s been God teaching you in and through his word lately.

Brett Hagler Yeah. I knew you guys were going to ask this because I listened to the pod. So I’m reading Proverbs right now with a couple of buddies. And we do this thing every day that I’m sure some listeners do something similar, but it’s been really life changing in my last year. So I just want to share it. So it’s me and a couple of friends and we read the same scripture. And then we just send back to each other what God wants us to know, how he wants us to be and what he wants us to do. And that’s been one of just the best, best, best new habits of not just doing it with myself and God, but bringing in a few close friends. And so we’ve been doing that and going through Proverbs. And just the two main words that stand out are trust and humility that I’ve been just seeing and reading in Proverbs. And I think both of those are such a powerful combination just to live into God’s will and not our will. And I think they’re also two of the most challenging things to do is to trust and to have the humility because the enemy wants to do the opposite of those things. Right. He wants us to have fear, not to trust, to try to have control over our plans, et cetera. But if we can trust God, which is all in Proverbs and then have the humility that to me feels like the main thing that God is trying to talk to me about right now.

Richard Cunningham I love that no be do and then trust and humility. That’s a good word. Well, Brett Hagler, new story. I mean, thank you for the work you’re doing while you’re blazing a trail. This gets me fired up. I’m pumped about what is in front of you. And Luke and I both kind of see that the work you’re doing and the angle about what you’re going at it, and I think deeply resonate with your work. So, man, prayers up for what’s ahead and folks for Luke Roush. This is Richard Cunningham. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the FDI pod. We will catch you next time.

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In a world where financial advice is evolving from product-driven to values-driven approaches, Kingdom Advisors CEO Rob West reveals how 2,700 Christian financial professionals are transforming the industry through biblical stewardship. With an estimated $20+ trillion in Christian wealth at stake, Wall Street firms are increasingly embracing faith-aligned investment strategies that prioritize Kingdom impact alongside returns. As Rob West reminds us, “True wisdom is not a perspective, it’s a person and His name is Jesus.”

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ -following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 Hey everyone, all opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. And this podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast. A joy to have you with us for what is our March Marks on the Markets episodes. And while we’re going to get into markets here and there today, we’re doing something a little different as the Super Bowl Luke Rausch for kind of the financial services industry and Christian advisors in the financial services industry just took place February 19th to the 21st in Orlando, Kingdom Advisors Annual Conference. And we have got K .A.’s CEO Rob West with us here today to talk about. KA, the conference, everything that was coming out of that, some of the major themes and threads that we’ll pull on. That’s where we’ll get some of that market commentary. But Luke, before we say hey to Rob West and get into an episode we’re both really pumped about, you were at KA, you sent myself and a number of other folks an email about just how staggering and transformative an event like this was, kind of one of the seminal key moments for the broader movement. How are you, man? And tee up Rob a little more as well. We’ve got you.

Luke Roush Yeah, thanks, Richard. Well, as we’ve said many times before on this podcast, it takes a village as we embark on continuing to shape a whole industry and kingdom advisors every year for me is just it’s a whole gigantic room full of fellow villagers who are trying to put their shoulder to the plow and be a part of really creating new culture. As Andy Crouch writes, it’s easier to build new things than it is to change existing. And that’s what Rob and the team have been at for many, many years so faithfully. So I’m really excited to have Rob on today. And I’m still riding off the high of a couple of days in Orlando.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. Well, so Rob, once again, CEO of Kingdom Advisors, also hosts nationally syndicated radio program, Faith and Finance. Rob, I was just listening to that live show 20 minutes ago. So thanks for hopping over from Faith and Fi over to our FDI podcast recording. Joining us from Marietta, Georgia today. Awesome to have you with us, man. Congratulations on what was an unbelievably successful KA conference back in late February. How are you? Welcome to the FDI podcast.

Rob West Well, thanks. I’ll tell you, it’s great to be here. Richard and Luke, what a privilege. Have such respect for FDI and FDE and the movement. And you’re right, it does take a village and we each play our parts. But yeah, we’re riding high similarly on what God did in Orlando. We see that as the gathering of the Christian financial industry. And there was a lot of people gathered and the Lord was on the move. So thrilled to be able to share a little bit of what we saw there.

Richard Cunningham So Rob, set the stage for us a little bit on just K generally as an organization, obviously everything that built into the big event, I mean, huge, I mean, almost 3 ,000 attendees, the growth of the number of financial advisors that are coming each year, the speakers you pull in like Louis Giglio and Tim Tebow and Randy Alcorn, and then moving over to the kind of investing side, the Bob Dolls, David Bonsons, Brian Wesferis, Michael Kitsis, I mean, just an unreal lineup. Everyone raves about it each year, but kind of set the stage for us on just K generally and then kind of how that dovetails into this year’s big event.

Rob West Yeah, thanks for asking, Richard. So, Kingdom Advisors goes back to 2003. So, we’re 22 years old, founded by Ron Blue and the late Larry Burkett. And it was really birthed out of Ron’s vision personally to help Christians plan and manage their finances so they’d have more money to give away. And it’s this recognition, and this is really, I think, at the tip of the spear of our work at Kingdom Advisors is what drives our team today. And it’s this. that God has allowed financial advisors to be the supply line for kingdom advancing capital through giving and investing. I mean, it’s that simple. You know, if you think about it, when money is released, whether it’s through capital deployment in faith -based investments or whether it’s through generosity, it generally comes by way of a financial advisor that gives permission and really brings counsel and brings a plan and brings the products to the table. And so what that means is that we have the opportunity to really invest in these, let’s call them financial pastors, that are advising on money. But as we know, who understand a biblical worldview and God’s word, it’s so much more than that. It really is issues of the heart. And so it puts these men and women in the center of this conversation that is so unique, really unlike the leveraged opportunity of anyone else as they engage with their clients. And so… We’ve built this community for advisors that want to bring their faith with them to work and help their clients plan, give, and invest God’s money according to a Biblical worldview to really help those clients live as faithful stewards. And we do that by offering a designation, certified kingdom advisor. We can talk more about that a little later. Every major Wall Street firm just about has accepted CK and approved it as the only designation for biblically wise financial advice. But we also do this conference every year that we call Redeeming Money. And it’s really, we like to say, the gathering of the Christian financial industry. And you’re right, we’ve seen some incredible growth in that conference. Two years ago, we were sold out at 2 ,200, and we were up 20 % from the prior year. This year, we’re up another 20 % at 2 ,700 with a sell -out crowd. And you know, Michael Kitsis, thought leader and industry leader in our space, He says, you know, Rob, most financial services conferences are not back to where they were pre -pandemic. And so why would we have seen 40 % growth over the last two years? And I think it really just speaks, and you all would see this as well in your work, it speaks to the momentum that’s going on right now in our space. And that’s for a variety of reasons, I think. Number one, I think the future of financial advice is really suited for financial advisors and offer faith -aligned advice and investments. because we believe that the future of financial advice is really, it’s holistic, it’s values driven, and it’s really catering to the unique needs of clients. You know, there was a day where financial advice was largely product driven, and then it moved to goals -based planning, and I think now the future of financial advice is really around the intersection with values. And, you know, we’re seeing significant demand on the part of believers, whether it’s how they choose their movies. or how they choose their financial advisor. They want their faith reflected in every domain of their life, and that includes their money decisions. And so as a result of that, and as a result of the acceptance of the industry, the larger financial services industry around our niche, we’re just seeing some incredible momentum.

Luke Roush maybe share a bit more just on that momentum because I’ve only been coming to the conference for five or six years now, Rob, and it’s just been extraordinary even in the last five or six years. Me, talked about the last two or three. What do you think has really propelled that? And maybe just say more on what you were just alluding to in terms of an evolution and how Christ followers are thinking about stewarding what God has entrusted to them and the unique role that kind of river guide of an advisor has in shepherding them forward.

Rob West Yeah, it’s a great question. You know, I think first of all, it really does speak to where financial advice is going. Number one, I think it speaks to the demand on the part of Christians that are really want to see their values reflected in in every decision they’re making. But that includes the planning decisions, the giving decisions, and now the investing decisions that they’re making as they’re becoming familiar with the opportunity to really see incredible Kingdom impact alongside. really compelling risk adjusted returns with their investments and having an advisor who can bring that to the table. But what’s fascinating is what’s going on in the financial services industry as well, because what’s unique about this conference is it’s a gathering of 2 ,700 folks, massive group of advisors who are Christians bringing their faith with them to work. But you also see just about every major Wall Street firm represented at that event. And many of those Wall Street firms are bringing They’re senior leaders all the way up to the C -suite. And you might ask, well, you know, why are they there? Why are they so supportive? And here’s what they’re recognizing is they’re recognizing that when you can connect with your client at a values level, everyone wins, right? It creates better planning outcomes. It’s a deeper relationship. You know, it’s better for the client. It’s better for the advisor. It’s better for the firm. And so… What we’re so excited about is that really the financial services industry has embraced our space. They’re creating room in their firms for communities of faith -based advisors to come together. And they’re adding products to the shelves. You know, the world -class, both public and private market products that are being created in the faith -based space. You know, one of the big pieces of the work that we do is engaging with these firms and helping them develop model portfolios and helping them think about. how they build out their faith -based investing product suite. And you put all that together, the consumer demand, the advisor energy, and the industry acceptance, it’s a game changer. And then I would say the last thing is really just, it changes the why for the advisor. Because one of the things I hear most often when I get a call from an advisor is they’ll say something like, Rob, I was ready to get out of the business. I was tired of helping people build bigger barns. And this changes everything because I’ve realized that my greatest opportunity for ministry is on the other side of the conference table, Monday through Friday. And when they can come home to the Kingdom Advisors Conference and not feel like they’re on an island anymore, but they walk into the room and there’s 2 ,700 people worshiping and sitting under Louis’ teaching and then getting into the breakouts and getting in the best practices and then going into the exhibit hall and seeing 70 partners and world -class investment products all built for the Christian advisor. It’s a game changer.

Luke Roush Well, I think it’s a great comment just on the unique role that kingdom advisors plays and actually bringing together firms and individuals who work for firms who are very faith driven, but also many in the room that represent firms that would not be faith driven that ministry opportunity in the broader marketplace is really unique. And, you know, lest one might think, gosh, 2800 advisors, how many more advisors are there in the US that could possibly be reached? Maybe just describe kind of the broader opportunity that you guys are still staring at in terms of really impacting not just, you know, thousands of advisors, but also many times that many clients maybe speak to just kind of the size of the overall advisory space that is potentially reachable.

Rob West It’s pretty compelling, you know, best we can tell there’s about 350 ,000 client facing financial planners and investment professionals. So we’re not talking about the CPAs, we’re not talking about the insurance folks, we’re not talking about the state planning attorney, we need them too. But just the financial planners and the wealth managers, it’s about 350 ,000. And you could lay over top of that, you know, any number of statistics, but let’s just use Farna’s 26 % are practicing Christians. where their faith is very important to their lives. They’re in church regularly and they self -identify as practicing Christians. Well, that’s 90 ,000 advisors. That’s our potential market that are out there today. Let’s say we just get a third of those. I mean, what we really see is our true market potential at Kingdom Advisors is 30 ,000 advisors. You know, we serve about 4 ,000 that are members of Kingdom Advisors today. About 1 ,700 of those have earned our designation. And so. They’ve gone through a 50 hour training program, proctored exam, pastor and client reference, statement of faith, code of ethics, regulatory review, 10 hours of CE. I mean, we don’t go easy on them, but those 1 ,700 are the ones that we then hold out to the public. You know those have a team. 80 ,000 Christians will come to our website this year and do a search for the Certified Kingdom Advisor, but there’s a massive audience of advisors. And then you lay that on top of, and you guys, I’m sure have your own stats on this. I mean, best we can tell, there’s probably somewhere north of $20 trillion in the hands of Christians today. I mean, just the advisors in that room at our conference probably represented $300 billion of investable assets. So. There’s a compelling opportunity there. And, you know, one of the things I’ll add just in terms of the potential is really what’s happening with students. And you would have seen this, Luke, at the conference, but we had 250 undergraduate students at the conference this year from 25 universities, eight of those offering a CFP and a CKA, our designation, Certified Kingdom Advisor program, in their business school. So this is training the next generation of financial advisors. They’re gonna graduate ready to sit for CFP, ready to sit for CKA, and our advisors are hiring them as fast as they graduate. We need more schools and more students because, here’s an interesting stat, 38 % of today’s financial advisors will be out of the business in 10 years. You know, the average age is 55. So they’re putting this biblical advice model in place, and the last thing they wanna do is, you know, transition the practice to the next generation that’s gonna unwind all of that. So they want these next gen students that are ready to kind of enter the business with impact on their minds on day one.

Richard Cunningham Incredible, Rob. I love how you guys have thought about almost every angle from next gen to those retiring out. Just, it’s fun to hear how much space there still is to run in terms of growth. I mean, the one thing I keep thinking about is, as epic as that Orlando World Center Marriott is, are we going to grow out of that space? I mean, it just feels like it’s been the staple KA host, but I can’t imagine it can hold much more.

Rob West Yeah, it’s interesting. We have that conversation with the Marriott all the time. We’re contracted there through 2029 and they can go up to with our style of event, which is heavy on breakouts and workshops because, you know, from the main stage we’re doing teaching to encourage the attendees spiritually. So that’s where Louie Giglio and Tim Tebow and Andy Crouch and others. But then in the breakouts, it’s the how -to’s of biblical financial advice. And so we need a lot of We need a lot of space. So we can go up to 4 ,000 there, and then it’ll be onto a convention center or something like that. But we’ve got a few years left.

Richard Cunningham That’s awesome. Hallelujah. What a good problem to have.

Luke Roush Maybe speak a little bit about the certified kingdom advisor designation. Kind of what does it mean? Why is it advantageous for an advisor to sort of think about that? And maybe just speak to the origin of it. Cause I think that’s a really compelling part of what kingdom advisors is doing to try to educate and also, you know, create a designation that implies expertise to a client.

Rob West I appreciate that. We realized a number of years ago that if we were going to really serve the public well, the Christian public who wanted an advisor who understood their worldview as Christ followers and could align their advice and now their investments with those values, that they really needed an advisor who’d been trained and that we could feel good about holding out to the public. And so we built the Certified Kingdom Advisor designation, but we built it. in line with all the industry norms. Because what’s going on right now in financial services is most major wirehouses and Wall Street firms are reducing the number of designations. They’re not adding them. There was a day where you could go to Vegas for the weekend, sit through a few courses and come home with a few letters after your name. And that’s pretty much gone by the wayside. I mean, they’re really skinning them down to only those that have true academic rigor and have you know, a public disciplinary process and have a code of ethics and annual CE requirements and the whole host. And so we built a designation that met every one of those industry standards. And then we added on top of those with a pastor reference and client reference and code of ethics and statement of faith. So we have a true designation that is widely accepted across the industry, which is really exciting. And what it does for us is, you know, there’s been a lot of affinity fraud out there. Christians taken advantage of in the name of religion. And this really addresses that head on by making sure that we’ve got not only a really robust front end process before somebody can get the designation, but an ongoing process of annual renewal and CE. And so we’re seeing real excitement about it. As I said, we’ve got 1700 advisors. What’s pretty cool is just the growth track of CKA is pretty phenomenal. So just by comparison, certified financial planner CFP grew by between three and 4 % per year the last two years, three to 4 % each year. CK is up 11 and a half percent two years ago. We’re on pace to be up 14 % this year. So the growth rate is pretty compelling. Now there’s 100 ,000 CFPs and we’ve got 1 ,700. So we got a long way to go, but the trajectory and the glide path is right. And then that demand is growing pretty significantly. So those searches for a CKA on our website are gonna be up about 20 % plus this year from 68 ,000 to 80 ,000. So it’s pretty fun to watch it all unfold.

Richard Cunningham That’s awesome. Yeah, there’s a competitive advantage to it as you’re unpacking there, as people are looking for CKs and that values alignment when they sit down across from their advisor. That’s amazing. Well, Rob, let’s go to the meat and potatoes of this year’s event. What are those talks, those themes that people just keep bringing up here a couple weeks later? Maybe some market insights, but also I want you to start with two. We’ve said his name a few times, but folks like Louis Giglio, you guys have worship at a financial services industry event. Talk about the significance of kind of pastoral care and teaching as you also have, you know, a ton of insight on kind of just best practices, what’s taking place and kind of the overall financial services ecosystem as well.

Rob West Yeah, thanks Richard. So worship is a big part of our event. We put a lot of time and energy to make sure that everything we do is done with excellence. So everything from just the main stage and the audio visual and the lighting and the production value and we have a creative director who you know really thinks through that end -to -end. It’s now a year -round planning process. Everything from the hosting experience to the band and you name it. But worship is a key part that because what we hear consistently. and most often from first timers is they’ll say, I walked in the room and I saw 2 ,700 people worshiping the Lord at an advisor conference and I realized I found my people. You know, like I had no idea this existed. I mean, we’ve heard from advisors saying, hey, I’m gonna go to this thing, honey, and you go out to the pool and I’m sure I’ll be out there in 15 minutes. And I called my wife or I called my husband half hour later in tears and said, you gotta get in here. I’ve never experienced anything like this. So that’s been a cool part of it. And then, you know, as we said from the main stage, it’s really all about spiritual encouragement. I mean, Ron Blue, our founder, has said from day one, you can’t take a client where you haven’t been. And so it really starts with us, right, and our own walk with Jesus and my relationship with the Lord and what I’m learning in God’s word, I have nothing to bring to my clients apart from that. And so we just want to pour into you. And so… In terms of those talks that resonate, I mean, if you jump on LinkedIn, you’re gonna see Tim Tebow all over it because he brought this just really passionate message about, wait a minute, as kingdom advisors, you’re advising on behalf of the king. And what is the significance of that? And what does that mean? And he just really challenged them. And then, Louie’s been amazing. Louie’s been a great friend of ours for several years. I think this is his fourth or fifth visit to the Redeeming Money Conference. And we just really appreciate how he just builds people up. … Just the Bible -based teaching that he brings is always just a real high point of the conference. Andy Crouch, there’s nobody better. Peter Grier on Mission Drift. Gabe and Rebecca Lyons were amazing just talking about this idea of really a wisdom track that rides alongside the culture that’s just so appealing that draws people in and the opportunity our advisors have to bring that to bear. So that’s really what happens from the main stage. When we get into some of those. you know, practical how -tos we like, as you said, to bring the best of the best in our industry, but who operate from a biblical worldview. So that’s, you know, Bob Dahl and David Bodson and Brian Westbury and Jerry Boyer and so many others. And it’s just fun to watch them kind of bring the market and the economic news of the day through the lens of a biblical worldview, because they know it begins with God’s design for wealth creation. You know, this virtuous. cycle that we were created and mankind is a blessing and we’re to keep and cultivate and be productive and work with our hands and then you know we take God’s latent potential and you know we put it to work and we are co -creators and and then we give back to the God that created us. I mean that is a backdrop as a game changer for understanding what’s going on in our economy today and that’s the kind of worldview that these guys are bringing.

Luke Roush Yeah. So Rob, I’d love for you to just go a little bit deeper in terms of things that seem to be popping out, things that seem to be evolving. I’ve noticed some evolution even in the last three or four years around how people think about kind of values driven investing. I think where maybe the industry was a some number of years ago was largely about how do we avoid certain things, negative screening. It feels like there’s been an evolution in the last few years about also leaning into this, what are we for? You know, it’s one of the things that I always appreciate about and his talk is. investing that makes the world rejoice, which is what even Tide speaks a lot about, and it’s something that is obviously close to our heart at Sovereign’s. How have you seen those themes evolve and change in the last few years?

Rob West That’s been so significant, Luke. I think it was our friends at Eventide that really kind of coined these three categories of avoid, embrace, and engage. And I think you’re exactly right. The conversation around faith -based or faith -driven investments was largely around the avoid side. What is it we’re kicking out or avoiding? And that’s great. We want to continue that. But I think kind of the new story of what at least the tone and tenor that we’re experiencing at this year’s conference is moving very heavily. into the embrace side and looking at the impact investments and the opportunity through both the public but now also the private markets to really lean into and think about how we deploy capital and how it’s solving problems and how it’s really resonating with investors and how real impact is occurring. And that’s been a shift in the narrative. I think the community of faith -based investors and asset managers and thought leaders and theologians. is healthier than it’s ever been. I think the discourse is happening at a higher level. I think the products are world class now and there’s more products on the shelves. And then I think the engagement side is a new story as well. And we saw that really present at the conference this year also. I mean, the work Jerry Boyer and others are doing in this space and many of the asset managers have their own engagement strategies, but not only are Christians understanding that their proxy votes and their shareholder resolutions matter and they need to be engaged in those conversations to express Christian values. But advisors are bringing that opportunity to the table in a way they haven’t previously. And so there’s just a genuine excitement and enthusiasm on the part of our community at Kingdom Advisors around all of these things because it just seems like the trajectory of faith -based investing has changed dramatically. both in the conversation, but also in the execution.

Luke Roush Yeah, well that resonates with me and I think that’s very much in line with what I’ve observed I also think and you mentioned this earlier, but it’s a big encouragement to me the number of young people who are Seriously interested in this industry and really, you know If for no other reason just the need and demand There are a great many kingdom advisors who are somewhere in the last 10 or 15 years of their career and so thinking about succession, how do we continue to offer the kind of advice that Kingdom advisors have been offered to their clients for so many years faithfully I’m excited to see and this may be part of what’s actually Driving just an evolution and thinking is more and more young people waiting in Who aren’t having a halftime event at 45 or 50 thinking about how do they reframe their career? To be more in line with their faith. They’re having their halftime event at 23 24 Even younger maybe in college. It’s interesting to see that kind of play out and i’m excited to see how kingdom advisors continues to wade into that younger generation.

Richard Cunningham Well, Luke, I’d also piggyback into that. It’s also on the advice side is that if, for the most part, people working with advisors right now are maybe the baby boomer generation, those in the millennial kind of Gen Z cohort coming into wealth or accumulating wealth, working with an advisor, are also thinking about values alignment maybe differently than the generation before us was or is, or you know, it’s unique and everything kind of has its own kind of. independent scenario, but just kind of on a macro level that feels like that’s the case. Robert, you seeing that too, kind of to dovetail off what Luke’s saying?

Rob West No doubt. We actually did a panel of next -gen inheritors speaking to the advisors to help them understand what they need to know about those inheritors because they view money differently. They weren’t the ones that saw the creation of the money. They’re receiving it, and obviously that changes dramatically how they view it, how they handle it, how they give it, how they invest it. And I think to your point, Luke, this next generation, I mean, all the data saying impact even more. then the paycheck is heavily on their minds. They wanna know, am I making a difference? Am I being authentic to who I am and how God has made me? And I wanna align my work, I wanna align my investments, I wanna align how I handle money, with that across the board. And that just really bodes well for the work that we’re doing because these programs that are spinning up, I mean, the latest of which was Grand Canyon University, which is just massive and – you know, between Liberty and Grand Canyon. I mean, the two biggest Christian universities in the country now. And for both of them to have a program that trains the next generation of financial advisors. And to your point, Luke, most of the advisors we serve in Kingdom Advisors today, you know, they found this idea of bringing their faith with them to work 20 years into the business. I mean, imagine starting on day one, knowing that I have a different why for why I go to work. And, you know, I’m gonna be able to help. my clients live as stewards and help them make an impact and help them use these investments. You know, that is a game changer and we couldn’t be more excited about where this is all headed.

Luke Roush Yeah, super exciting. The energy is contagious. And you know, the buzz, I think on the street, to your point, growth is usually a combination of faithful execution and also timing. It really does feel like the timing in combination with great execution by you and the team. And I think, you know, standing on truth, what we always say is truth stands out in the marketplace of ideas. And you guys are standing on truth that has been carefully curated and crafted and informed by God’s Word and just wise biblical counsel. So I’m really I think we’re all really grateful for the leadership mantle that rests with Kingdom Advisors. particularly within the RIA community. It’s a big, big deal, and we’re grateful for your service. Richard, we always end with the same question, so I’m gonna let you fire it over.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I’m actually going to not play by the rules here, Luke, and go to that question just yet. And kind of maybe a lightning round from both of you. Real quickly, just Marks on the Markets episode is kind of our monthly nod to the markets. Maybe quick commentary from both of you. Think talking about that kind of biblical worldview, everything that’s just going on right now on headlines, whether it be tariffs or Zelensky situations, and then the US and Ukraine trying to have peaceful conversations, whatever that looks like, and go in whatever direction you want. but maybe. Kind of a nod to our marks on the markets. 30 to 60 seconds from each of you on just kind of, maybe it’s something you heard at KA from one of the economists. What are you thinking about right now? How can you take that biblical worldview? And then Rob, we will close with our go -to question, but I wanna hear from both of you on that.

Rob West Yeah, you know, I mean, boy, the volatility is up. I mean, the uncertainty is through the roof. And yet we can rest on God’s design for economics and wealth creation and realize that when we understand his handiwork at the core of this, we can trust him for the outcome. You know, I love a lot of where we’re headed. And this was a consistent theme from Brian Westbury and David Bonson and Jerry Boyer and Bob Dahl. And that is that You know, a lot of the things we’re talking about today in terms of getting out of the way of business and letting business providing goods and services, things that are good and things that are serving people do what they’re going to do without a lot of heavy -handed government intervention is the way it should be. And let capital be deployed in a way that’s gonna solve problems and meet needs. And when we understand again, that we’re more mind than mouth, right? We were created as a blessing. and we need to let people thrive. And, you know, God creates out of nothing. We create out of God’s creation, but that human flourishing happens when we supply capital to business to do what business was intended to do. And I think that’s a lot of what’s happening right now in Washington, and that’s a good thing. And we need to celebrate that, and we need to understand why that’s working the way that it is, and that ultimately goes back to a biblical worldview. Yeah, I agree.

Luke Roush completely Robin. One of the things that we really believe is that there are certain things in the world that are timely and there’s other things in the world that are timeless. And so we know God’s Word to be true. We know it to be timeless and He is the same yesterday and today and tomorrow. There’s other things that are timely and certainly the flavor of the hour, as you said, is volatility and uncertainty and I think just some amount of drama. And so I think that the situation in Washington is chaotic. I think many people would say that it’s about time that we shake things up. But I think it’s an important time for believers to remember that, you know, the three main legs of the stool, prayer, God’s Word, and godly counsel from others who are running in the same direction is what anchors us into truth. I think that there’s a lot of good things that will come out of this to include more fiscal responsibility on the part of Hopefully our nation and certainly at a state level and at a departmental level I think there’s going to be a lot of just Change and you know as christ followers We’ve got a wonderful opportunity to reflect what we know to be true in terms of where do we place our hope? And and what gets us rattled or not rattled and so I think reanchoring Into our true identity as believers and followers of the teachings of jesus is important even as markets Endure, I think some protracted turbulence and part of it is of our own creation You know when money’s free for 10 or 15 years It’s hard to imagine a time when money goes back to being what it’s costed I heard it actually quoted yesterday in biblical times the interest rate on an unsecured loan was in the 8 % to 12 % range. And that’s kind of like where we are today. And for a long time, it was about 4%, which was an aberration. And so what we’re living through right now in terms of return to more normalized cost of capital is I think more emblematic of where we’ve been in the course of human history. And as we readjust to that normality, there’s some turbulence, but we know where our hope should be placed and needs to be placed daily. And I think that the kingdom advisors out there in the world are reminding clients of that and reminding themselves of that. So I’m grateful for that aspect of how you help people to anchor into what is true and right.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. 8 to 12 percent in biblical times. That’s fascinating.

Luke Roush I would have expected it to be much higher.

Richard Cunningham Right? Me too.

Luke Roush I don’t know how they calculated that or where they got that. I’ve not seen a source on that, but it was stated with some amount of confidence yesterday. Therefore, I’m going to go ahead and restate it.

Richard Cunningham Nothing like a little conviction. Well, hey, Rob, it’s Ash Wednesday. As we record this, this episode will release on Monday, March 10th. We’re just so thankful for all the things Kay is doing and just an honor to celebrate the big event. But take us home with the question we love to ask at the close of every FDI pod, and that is what’s God been teaching you in and through his word lately?

Rob West Yeah, well, I’d be delighted to share that. Let me just say before I do how grateful I am for Richard, you and Luke and the team at Faith Driven Investor. Your work is so important. I love what’s happening with solving the world’s greatest problems and the momentum that you all have right now. And you are such vital partners to our work. So thanks for all you’re doing. I can’t wait to continue to collaborate in the days ahead. But yeah, so I’ve been in the book of Ecclesiastes lately. We’re actually. Producing so we haven’t talked much about faith five, but that’s our consumer brand where we host the radio show And we’re really kind of moving into a new area of creating Resources that are intended to be for advisors to use with their clients But also for our radio listeners and so forth. So we’re producing studies and devotionals. So our new study comes out In April called wisdom over wealth 12 lessons on money from the book of Ecclesiastes. So I’ve been in the book of Ecclesiastes, a lead writer on it’s John Cortina’s good friend of ours, but here’s what Ecclesiastes 7 .12 says, and you all would know this passage well. It says, wisdom is a shelter, as money is a shelter, but the advantage of knowledge is this, wisdom preserves those who have it. And so we know that wisdom is far more important than wealth, and we need to transfer wisdom before wealth. And we talk a lot about wisdom at Kingdom Advisors because really at the core of everything we do is biblical financial wisdom. But it does beg the question, I think, and this is what I’ve been thinking about, what is wisdom? It’s really not just about intellectual mastery or a list of best practices. True wisdom is not a perspective, it’s a person and his name is Jesus. And if we want to be wise, we have to do a lot more than study theology or gain life experience. We need to know Christ personally. and so. That would be my challenge to us today, is do we know wisdom himself? What a great word.

Luke Roush What a great word to finish on.

Richard Cunningham Absolutely. Rob West, CEO of Kingdom Advisors. Friends, he’s got a great radio voice and a lot of wisdom. You can find him at faithfi .com. He’s on every single day, giving talks similar to this and just unpacking finances from a biblical worldview. Grateful for your time. For Luke Roush, folks, I’m Richard Cunningham. Thank you so much for joining us and we will catch you next time.

Close We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see listeners come in from more than 100 countries. Faith -driven investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter at faithdriveninvesting .org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends, executive producer Justin Forman, intro mixed and arranged by Summer Draggs, audio and editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.

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Discover how a chance meeting between a professor and student blossomed into managing 50,000 acres of premium farmland. Hear why investing in farmland with sustainable water resources offers both consistent income and long-term appreciation potential. Join Chris Morris and John Farris as they reveal how regenerative farming practices are restoring the land while delivering impressive returns for investors.

Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham You’re listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ-following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening. 

Narrator Hey everyone, all opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. And this podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening. 

Richard Cunningham Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast. It’s the end of March. We’re thrilled to have you with us. Luke, I’m fired up about our conversation today. We’re talking farmland investing, ag investing with Chris Morris and John Farris of Land Fund Partners. What a joy to have you guys in the studio with us. Luke, you know these guys well, are big admirers of theirs. Before we say hey to them, man, how are you? Tell us a little about land fund partners from your angle. 

Luke Roush You know, it’s a shame that we’re 195 podcasts into the FDI podcast. And this is the first conversation that we’ve had with an agricultural farmland investor. That’s an important asset class. And there’s also a lot of, I think, surprising in some ways ministry opportunities as these guys go about their work and think about the mandate to restore the earth. So I’m really excited. I’ve known John and Chris for a long time. I’ve known of the fund and been personally involved. and I’m really grateful to have them on today. So I’m looking forward to the conversation. 

Richard Cunningham Well, gentlemen, coming to us from Nashville, Tennessee, today, John, as I understand you split some time between Nashville and Kentucky. Chris, you’re in Nashville full-time. Great to have you guys with us. How’s it going? Maybe give us a little bit of background on who you both are individually, how you guys met, and kind of the early origin stories of Land Fund as we dive into today’s pod. 

John Farris Yeah, thanks Richard, thanks Luke. And Luke, you may not know this story, but it’s an epic God story. Your dad has a lot to do with Chris and I meeting. 

Luke Roush I did not know that actually, this is awesome. 

John Farris Yeah, so my background as an ag economist at the World Bank, moved back to Kentucky for my roots and was teaching at Center College where I went to school and Luke’s dad was president there, amazing, amazing guy. And I was an adjunct professor and at the time they didn’t offer health insurance to adjunct professors. In 2009, we just had our third child, our third daughter and I was leaving to go be a professor at University of Kentucky and Luke’s dad got plan that I was gonna. leave the college because I couldn’t get insurance because of the policy. And he stepped in and made a change to that policy. And then my very next class that I was teaching in the fall of 2009, Chris Morris was one of my star students. 

Richard Cunningham That’s so cool. 

John Farris Yeah, land fund would not be, you know, it’s kind of a divine intervention by John Roush and some others would not be here if it wasn’t for Luke’s dad. So that’s kind of a cool way that brings it full circle. So yeah, Chris was one of my. My background had been at the World Bank and had done a lot of studying on water and the importance of water and how important it would be to feed the growing population of this earth over the next 50 years. And talked a little bit about it and had an idea and Chris had the pleasure of having him as a student both in the fall of 2009 and the spring of 2010. And maybe I’ll let Chris take it from there. 

Chris Morris Yeah, so yeah, definitely very cool story and amazing the ways that all this has come together, but yeah, Chris Morris, president of land fund, as John mentioned, we’ve been together since day one and even, you know, pre-founding of the firm, I’m from a small town in Kentucky called Maysville, Kentucky. Grew up in a pretty rural community. It was around farming, did some summer farm jobs. And that made me say, wow, I really need to go get a college degree. So I went to center college in Kentucky. to study economics and finance, met John, and it was an interesting time to be studying finance and investing in diversification post-financial crisis. Everything really changed in 08, 09, and farmland was one of those things that hit a radar and I had some familiarity with, and that entrepreneurial interest to go and start something with someone great like John. So yeah, so very full circle how it’s come around. 

Luke Roush Hey, and just, you know, because you’ll leave this out, Chris, but you were also a collegiate athlete. So tell us about your illustrious golfing career. I think you’re a national champion, right? 

Chris Morris Yeah, a long time ago. So yeah, I played golf at center college and I was fortunate to get a little bit better every year and in 2011 won the national championship individual tournament and got the Jack Nicklaus award, got to meet Jack Nicklaus. And wow, that’s great. You know, the team was the best team finish in school history and the NCAA tournament. And yeah, so, you know, it was very, very fun to do. Got to play a lot of free golf. D3 Athletics, can’t promote it enough, but yeah, still great friends and learned a lot from the game and athletics and competition. 

John Farris I played golf through Luke, but not at that level. 

Richard Cunningham John knows better than to wager against Chris. Sounds like he’s an absolute stick. Chris, one of our upcoming FDI podcast guests, but the podcast has already been recorded as a guy who leads a successful wealth management shop here in Austin named Travis Pinfield, 49 Financial. He just went and got to spend the day with Jack and Barbara Nicholas. Just some random connection, and he said he’s never been more nervous in his life than putting with Jack Nicholas standing behind him, giving him instruction. He’s like, dude, do you know who you are as you evaluate my putting stroke right now? So that’s really cool to hear. So what was the moment? What was the magic moment? Was it Chris coming to John and saying, hey, I’ve got an idea for land fund, or was it professor going to student and saying, hey, you need to go start this thing? How did it come to fruition? 

John Farris Here’s the magic moment is like after doing some studying, I really wanted to buy a hundred acres of farmland and that’s all I could afford. And so the magic moment was through the grace of God, I met Billy Ussery down in the Mid-South. I knew that I wanted to buy in the Mid-South and because of the water situation, I’ve done a lot of research and studied how important that would be and we can go into that in a bit, but. Billy said, you know, you seem like a nice guy, so I want to tell you like 100 acres. That’s not going to do anything. And it’s really not a great investment. You need scale, you know, to be able to have an investable product, you need, you know, about 2,500 acres. And we went over a few things and I said to Billy, Hey, Billy, you know, if I was to raise the capital and find investors to invest alongside me, would you be willing to manage the farms? with us and would you be willing to help us find the farms and what would be something you and your family would like to invest in? And you know, he thought I was a dreamer. So he said, yes, I don’t know if you thought I would come back. So I set out and contacted Chris and said to Chris, you know, hey, I got this idea. I want to start a land fund or farm investing fund in the U.S. in the Mid-South. Chris was Thanks for watching! I think licking his wounds from the PGA Tour qualifying and said, you know, sure, I’ll come alongside you. And so we set out and started Land Fund Partners in 2012 and had our first fund in 2013 with the 2500 acre farm in Midland Lake, Mississippi. So we’re just very fortunate. It’s really evolved since then. That was 2500 acres. Now we manage about 50,000 acres in the Mid-South and, you know, we can go into how and Bye. different aspects of farmland in the mid-south, but we really think we’ve built something that couldn’t be replicated. If we had started today and tried to do it 13 years from now, we don’t think we could replicate it. And it’s just, we were just fortunate timing, grace of God, just very lucky, very fortunate. 

Luke Roush Maybe a term that I was not familiar with before getting to know you guys, but I’ve become familiar with and I’ve probably repeated it a thousand times since our first meeting, but the alluvian aquifer. Talk a little bit about that. Talk a little bit about just kind of the play. Why Mid-South, right? There’s a bunch of farmland investors up in the Midwest and kind of out West. Why Mid-South? And sort of just talk about the importance of water and sort of what the investment thesis is there as a resource that God’s given us. I think it’s relevant here. 

Chris Morris Yeah, so the Mississippi alluvial aquifer is underneath 100% of our farmland assets. You can actually look at it, you can Google it, see where it is. Not every part of it is created equal, but by our analysis, there’s about 320 years of remaining water availability underneath our farms. So we just think that that’s incredibly important when you see some of the overuse of water aquifers in other parts of the country, other parts of the world. you know, pollution, other factors. And our aquifer system is somewhat unique because it is replenished by the Mississippi River. So the Mississippi River leaves the third largest river in the world and it comes into that Mississippi Delta area. You can almost think of the aquifer like a big bathtub. So as you pump water out, it does draw down a bit, but then each spring, the river level rises. and it essentially fills that bathtub back up would be one way of thinking of it in a very rudimentary fashion. But yeah, it’s a tremendous resource. We have over 300 wells on our portfolio that are irrigating the farms. So the wells go about 150 feet deep and in some areas the water level is about 30 feet under the surface. So very easy to tap into and efficiently irrigate the land, our portfolios over. 

Speaker 6 92% irrigated, which is a pretty large amount. Yeah, let me just jump in there, and that’s different than… 

John Farris Midwest probably a lot of people are familiar with the Corn Belt and the Midwest and that’s a great fertile area of the country but the difference being they’re very weather dependent. They’re fortunate to have the seasonality and the good rains and mother nature is kind to them most years but some years you you experience drought and you can’t depend on that rain and the difference being mid-south because we’re 92% irrigated you know our farmers can use drip irrigation and other irrigation techniques. even if it doesn’t rain, and that allows them to, you know, prosper in times. And then it’s also a little warmer. So we need that irrigation and that irrigation system. But what we’ve seen when our thesis was when we focused in the area on the alluvial aquifer was that, you know, eventually prices in the Midwest for farmland per acre and the Mid-South where we are would converge. And when we started in 2012, prices per acre were about 140% higher than the Mid-South. And now that has converged to where they’re just 100% higher. But when we look at it, and when I say 100% higher, you’re talking about similar land with the same yield. So you have this corn that may yield the same in the Mid-South as Midwest high quality farmland trading for or selling for $15,000 an acre in the Midwest and in the Mid-South where we are, our portfolio is about $8,000 an acre. So. When we look at that, we’re like, and as an economist, you try to figure that out because we have crop diversity, we have the water, we have similar yields. So we eventually think over time, those prices will converge. And we’ve seen slow but steady incremental progress in that convergence theory, and that’s what we started with. 

Richard Cunningham So John, you’re getting into a little bit of explain kind of the mechanics of the business and how this process works when you guys go find a farm or a farmer, what building that relationship looks like, and just kind of land funds value prop, if you will. 

John Farris Yes, we really couldn’t do it without our farm managers. They live in the area, they grew up in the area, they go to church in the area, they eat at the local diner. And we have fortunate to have three full-time and one part-time farm managers who help us. And they’re our boots on the ground. They’re our secret sauce, as I would say. They really know the area, they know all the farmers and they’ve taught us that it’s real important to be good stewards of the land and of the community. And that has come back to us. The way we’ve treated people over time in the mid-south as opposed to other funds. So there are other farmland investment funds in the area, bigger funds and funded by pensions and other things. And sometimes the members of the community treated more like an asset and not like a partnership. And we treated, it’s very important to us to be good stewards of the land, good neighbors. and that’s really come around. And the mechanics really go like this. We identify through our farm managers help identify land for sale. Oftentimes we’re buying from families. So it’s a very emotional transaction for them. They may, like me, have three daughters that have moved away. And the average age of a farmer in the U.S. is close to 60. So the farmer may be ready to retire and they need to sell the land because they have a lot of their capital and their wealth tied up into the land. So we step in with our farm managers and we have a 20 point due diligence checklist that the land has to pass. And we evaluate the land based on different types of crops, the soil, many different factors. And we also underwrite with our farmers, not our farm managers, but our farmers. So we have about 20 farmers that work with us. And those farmers, they are often taken to the land and say, what would you rent this ground for? And that starts our underwriting process. So we know exactly what would you plant? What do you think about this soil? And that allows us to have a lot of underwriting for farmers like some years we’ll underwrite close to a billion dollars worth of farmland but only close on 20 million. And that’s just because we have a very stringent process and return hurdle that we need the land to make. So that’s what we start with. That’s the starting point. Maybe Chris, you wanna say how it goes from there? 

Chris Morris Yeah. And to add onto that, you know, so we’ll acquire an asset after, as John mentioned, a really strict due diligence process. And then we’re going to lease that farm out to one of our farmers. And, you know, important to note, one of the things that we’re doing at every farm is saying, how do we make this farm better? Sometimes it’s pretty straightforward where, hey, we can put in a new irrigation system that really helps increase the productivity and cash flows from the farm, grain bins, other assets. But then regenerative farming is also something that we seek to implement on every single farm. And all of our farmers have, in our lease agreements, they agree to do at least one regenerative practice on that farm per year. And we named our fund, it’s called actually the Soil Enrichment Fund. So from the outset, we have been very intentional about incorporating regenerative farming into what we do. Thanks for watching! That’s, you know, for a few reasons, but particularly restoring soil health and, you know, within the Christian worldview of restoring land to how it was intended to be over the last 60 or 70 years, you know, industrial farming has been great. There’ve been a lot of positives about being able to feed the world and higher crop yields, et cetera. But one of the side effects of that, you know, synthetic fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides, has been that in some ways the soil has been degraded. more erosion, just natural soil health has dropped off. And regenerative farming is incorporating a suite of practices that actually, you know, you can think about like using nature to heal nature. You know, it was designed to work a certain way. And there are things like cover cropping and no till, reduced till, all these things that can actually improve soil health over time, which doesn’t just make the soil better, it makes your farmer more profitable. And it’s really a with the farmers to come along. and walk with us in that process of restoring soil health. 

Luke Roush I want to go deeper on that, Chris, but before we do, just something that’ll be familiar to our listeners we’ve talked about before in the context of investing and faith-driven investing in particular, you know, I grew up with kind of the two-part gospel of, you know, man and woman is sinful and we need a savior, right? That’s sort of the two-part gospel that I grew up with. The reality is that the biblical narrative is not a two-part gospel, it’s a four-part gospel. The first is the creation mandate right the world was made in seven days and God has made us in his image, therefore we are creative, right? So we’re creating new things. Of course, kind of the fall of man and sort of bad decisions that we make in need of a savior, those two parts are very real. But then there’s this sort of fourth part of the gospel too, that sort of a meta-narrative that runs through scripture around restoration, that we’re actually called to actually try to restore the earth, to try to restore human relationship to what was originally intended. in the garden, right? And so when we say the Lord’s Prayer, we say that kingdom come here on earth as it is in heaven. This idea of sort of the world burning and going away and then we’re all going someplace else, that’s actually not a biblical construct. The construct is that like, actually, we are to restore the earth as it was originally intended in the garden. And that’s something that has really resonated with me, as you guys have crafted a strategy either kind of wittingly in that direction or sort of unwittingly, you know, God led you in that direction. It’s actually one of the beautiful narratives of what’s possible in the realm of kind of farming and ag investing. Talk a little bit more about what that journey has been like for you guys as you’ve gone down this road in partnership with your farmers, right? Cause it’s not necessarily something that you do it and then you see the payoff, you know, in day two, right? It’s something you got to stick with and you got to build over time. I’d love to have you guys just comment a bit more on that. 

John Farris Yeah, I’d love to, and I think that’s how we’re unique. Not only are we unique that we’re just focused in the Mid-South and on our water thesis, but we have regenerative practice and restoration practices on 100% of our farms. And that is another sort of epic God story. I was riding with our farm manager, Billy Ussery, again in 2018, and I wish Billy was here to help tell the story. we were looking at a neighboring farm and he said, you know, I grew up here. I’ve been here my whole life and that farm’s only done 40 bushels per acre of beans. I’ve never seen it do more. Now it’s doing 60. And I said, what are they doing? And he said, well, they’re doing this thing called regenerative farming. So of course, you know, as an economist, I had just dove right into it and try to figure out like, what does that mean and how do we do that? And you can look how fertile that ground was. So in 2019, we decided to try a pilot on regenerative farming on one of our farms. And we realized there’s a mini J curve. Those investors, you’re gonna lose money the first year, first couple of years, but that’s because you’re gonna be investing in the soil and doing cover crops and doing things that are a little more expensive than just leaving the ground it says. But over time, All the research and what we’ve seen shows that then three to five years in, the soil’s gonna be a lot healthier. It’s gonna require less pesticides, fertilizer. You’re also, your yields are gonna be higher. Your water use is gonna be lower. You’re really doing what, you know, the way that God created the earth to restore it. And you’re tilling less. You’re not going deeper into the earth. You’re really making that soil. So you’re taking less runs across the farm to plant, so less tilling, and so you’re saving money on the diesel. So. the researchers, you should be making 30 to 40% higher net income three to five years out by these practices. So it’s really a win-win. The hard part for us, and we have a number of anecdotal stories on this, but the hard part for us was to convince the farmers that this needed to be done, especially in year one and two. We had a 70-year-old farmer, one of our bigger farmers who had been farming since he was 15, and he said, I’ve never done a cover crop. And we said, you know. come with us on this David, you know, try it out. And he did. And the great part about that story is not only does he do cover cropping every year on the land fund farms, but he started to do it on his other farms. And it’s that leading by example. And now we see it, the practices that we’ve taught our 20 farmers being adopted across the Mid-South. And that’s, you know, for us a beautiful thing because that example hopefully will spread. You know, we have the largest cover cropping. You see it from satellites. You can see that, you know, our cover cropping program, which is really cool. And we’re really proud of we’re really proud of the fact that we’ve spread that message of restoring the earth and that the farmers have now bought in. And we go over the regenerative plan for our farms. And we have it in the lease by February of every year. So we just finished it last month. So, yeah, and Chris may want to add a few things there, but it’s something that we’re really proud of. We’re really proud that we are leading. by example, and it’s doing wonderful things for the Earth. 

Richard Cunningham Man, that’s awesome. I’m about to expose myself so bad. I’m born and raised in downtown Austin. Even though it is the state of Texas, I’m a total city yuppie. And so you guys have said it multiple times, but talk to me about this process of cover crops. Like I don’t even know what we’re talking about there. And some of it like kind of double click into some of these regenerative practices. And I mean, Luke is just laughing at me so hard right now as I asked this question. But then also, is it that big of a deal? I mean, like we’re in the make America healthy again era right now. And this is, I mean, it is talked about 24 seven and kind of just like, hey, let’s get the soil back to as what you guys are talking about. Just like what it was intended to be, God’s good design. I mean, is that what you guys are seeing? Like, are you confirming this right now in your work that this is a really big deal and kind of what’s going on, what we’re putting on our crops. 

Chris Morris Yeah, I’ll take it for stabs. So yes, so great question. And certainly there are a lot of we’re ag economics, you know, 500 seminar, not farmland 101 right now. So happy to back up. So yeah, so most people would be familiar with a typical cash crop, right? So typically, you would have, let’s say soybeans, for example, planted in May, farmers and plants, it grows all year, it’s harvested and September, October timeframe and is sold to the local grain facility and that soybean crop turns into cash. The farmers paid cash money for that crop. And this is how it generally is done. That’s the end of the story for that farm. What a cover crop is, is then after you harvest the main cash commodity, you go back and you plant a crop that is not for cash value necessarily. different types of grasses, cereal rye, something called brassicas, turnips and radishes, wild turnips that are planted. And then what happens is those grow all winter into the spring. So instead of the land laying fallow, getting rained on, snowed on, becoming hard pan, you know, just laying there barren, you’re actually planting a living breathing crop that is taking breathing carbon dioxide. carbon is going through that plant, through the root system back into the earth, which actually increases organic carbon. And that is a key factor in soil health and how productive that soil can be. So it’s a really beautiful cycle incorporating those cover crops in. And another benefit is when you go to plant again in April or May of the next year, the root system of that you know, living, breathing plant has kept the soil broken up and it’s not hard pan, it’s not packed down so you don’t have to heavy till and you can then it’s more easy to do those things like low till, no till, which, you know, even further increases the benefits. 

Speaker 6 So it’s a really virtuous cycle. And that’s what it covers. It’s pretty cool. Chris, why would someone till? Like maybe just grab tilling, like why you. 

John Farris till versus no till and how the planting works. 

Chris Morris Yeah, so if you have a hard pan, right? It’s very hard to get a seed into the ground. So if you fast forward to the spring, if the land is hard packed, then you’re gonna have to go till and you’re gonna drag an implement behind your tractor that is going to go sometimes eight, 10, 12 inches deep into the earth and turn up that soil to break the surface so that you can drop seeds in a row down the field. And so you don’t have to disrupt the natural soil. biology as much when you do things like cover cropping you can do what’s called strip till or no till where it’s much less Invasive and that allows the soil to keep doing its thing to store Organic carbon and to become more productive 

Luke Roush Well, in the same way that we know a lot more about the microbiome and the human gut today than we did a few years ago, there’s also a microbiome in the soil, right? And so every time you sort of turn that up, it’s some version of kind of sterilizing it. But to the extent that you can allow that microbiome to continue to build, you’ve got a much healthier condition for future crops. Maybe speak a little bit about what that looks like. Well, first off, make sure that I’m accurate in what I just said. 

John Farris You’re 100% right. 

Luke Roush Second off, maybe speak a little bit about just the timeframe required to kind of see results from this sort of innovation. 

John Farris Yes, I mean, we’ve seen it in the Midwest. It’s a short time frame. It’s, you know, one to two years. For the Mid-South, because of historical practices and the way ground has been farmed, it typically takes about three years for us to see the results that we want. And we’re well into it with many of our farms and we’ve seen the results and we’re believers and we’re going to keep doing it. You know, when we started the Soil Enrichment Fund in 2021, We told all of our investors, we’re going to do this. We’re going to do this for all of our farms. We’re going to be intentional about it. Some firms, the funds, and I don’t want to speak highly of them, but give it lip service. They say we’re regenerative or sustainable. But we didn’t want to do that. We wanted to be really intentional and make sure that we do it on every farm. We can point to the results. We do soil testing, Luke and Richard, on all of our farms. And we measure the organic matter and the carbon that’s brought back into the soil. And soil health is so important. That’s what we think our investors are investing in. And that’s what we’re trying to restore and build something the way we think was intended to be used and over the longterm. That’s great. Man, that’s super cool. 

Richard Cunningham Yeah, I’ve got a couple of questions here and they’re both a little bit more pointed and maybe you each take one of them. First one is, is there any pushback from the local farmers and these folks you’re going into about private equity money coming in? Maybe not land fund in particular, but just generally kind of the concept of folks like yourself who come in as more of an institutional capital partner. That’s one. And then two, now I’m putting my investor hat on, my LP hat on, and the folks that kind of partner with land fund. We’re in this high interest rate environment where I can go get 4% to 6% risk free in the treasury environment. And from what I am seeing and hearing here is a kind of passive inflation hedge, cash yield plus residual down the road, but there you add on and layer on risk with the illiquidity of partnering with the fund and a long-term process and things of that nature. How do you respond to those objections from investors when they said, hey, I can go get cash yield for far less risk, quote unquote, if you will, even as buttoned up and dialed as y’all’s process is. What do both of those look like? Maybe start with kind of the PE money entering into farmland and then the investor seat. 

John Farris Yeah, so the P.E. money, I mean, what we’ve seen is there’s a lot of now institutional capital, a lot more institutional capital coming in for farmland, particularly U.S. farmland. But if you look at the macro level in the U.S., it’s still less than 5% owned by institutional capital. So there’s a long way to go. And then you think about the locals. Yes, You can alienate the farming community really easily if… One, you don’t treat the ground right. You don’t treat the farmers right. You don’t treat the community right. And the thing that we started hearing down in the Mid-South, when we were working in the Mid-South, after about five years, we were hearing from farmers, we really liked those land fund guys and fund partner guys. And I would always ask, elaborate on that, and they would say, well, you all do what you say you’re gonna do. And I was like, I don’t know another way. Do people do something different than what they say they’re gonna do? They were like, yeah, you’d be surprised. the bigger funds sometimes come in and they switch the rules on the farmers and mid crop or they at the closing table, they’ll change the price that they’re gonna pay when a family’s all lined up. But we are the institutional capital with boots on the ground, local farm managers that farmers know. And so we see and it’s certainly something that we’re aware of, but we think that we’ll try to lead by example with the way we treat the farmers, treat the community. and what’s very important in our hiring process that we treat them. And sometimes it’s not just about squeezing the next nickel out of the farmer, right? Some farmers have had a tough year last year with uncertainty and family uncertainty, and we wanna make sure that we’re good partners with them, and sometimes that requires us not trying to maximize returns in the short term, short run, when we know that over the long term that’s gonna come back to us the way we treat people. And so that’s really important and something that we emphasize, you know, we emphasize to our farm managers, all of our employees is that it’s not just about making the next nickel. Now, fortunately we’ve had great returns and there’s lots of reasons that we do it differently. And I’ll turn over to Chris and just say, you can indiscriminately buy farmland and yes, you’ll make 5% generally around, you know, the U S you can indiscriminately do that. But we do, we’re different and we have best in class returns and I’ll let Chris take it over from there. 

Chris Morris Yeah, and Richard, to answer the question about the rate environment returns, how does farmland compare? You know, you’re certainly correct, 10-year yield today is probably around 4.3%, which is different than it was, you know, for much of the past decade. That has changed things on the margin, but just talking about farmland specifically as an asset class, if you go all the way back to World War II, it’s not just the cash flow component from leasing out the farms, but also the appreciation of the land. It is a scarce resource that they are not making any more of, right? We’re actually losing tillable farmland acres in the United States due to path of development, other issues. We’re just losing total farmland while trying to feed more and more people on the planet. So that scarcity, that supply and demand actually increases the value of farmland. So since back to World War II, to finish that thought, the USDA has farmland appreciating at about 5.2% a year. So that’s back to the 1940s. In our area of the country specifically, if you look at the past 20 years, the compound annual growth rate has been 6.2%. So if anything, we see it potentially accelerating due to the scarcity, but trying to feed even more people. and not just population-wise, also more protein-rich diets, a more rich protein diet, and then we’re talking globally. In the U.S., we’re very fortunate to have more than we need, but in much of the world, people don’t even have one meal of protein a day. As they move up the GDP per capita scale, it becomes two meals with protein a day. You need even more soybeans and corn to feed the chickens and the pigs and the thousand. So. We see that long-term appreciation is a key part of the return in addition to the cash flow, which typically a farm lease historically is going to generate four to five percent gross cash flow. That’s farmland as an asset class. We see it certainly performing differently than a treasury. You mentioned bonds. Farmland has also been referred to as gold with a coupon. So, as inflation goes higher… Commodity prices are denominated in dollars. Commodity prices go up. Our farmers are able to make more money, which means our rents actually increase annually. Whereas a bond, you’re getting paid a fixed amount over that 10-year period. So yeah, it’s a little different than treasuries, but overall, just a really unique, non-correlated, inflation-hedged asset class. 

Luke Roush Yeah, I think that’s a good case for the asset class. And I think you guys do it a bit differently than your peer group. One of the things I was really impressed with just going down and seeing y’all’s operations there. Uh, you know, and again, I’m just, I’m kind of watching from the sidelines and have followed along with you guys, but I really appreciated the fact that you got boots on the ground, you know, what we’ve seen repeatedly with other asset managers that we’ve had on is that proximity to deal flow helps to ensure that you get looks on the right things. And I think Billy… is unique in terms of his local credibility and relational capital and you know maybe speak just one more question then we’ll go to wrap but speak to a little bit of how you think about tucking in sort of smaller parcels right so back to kind of this idea of 2,500 acres critical mass how do you think about actually the buy and build approach to these regions where you operate? 

John Farris That’s a great question because that’s a major part of our thesis and how we do things. We now, as I mentioned, have close to 50,000 acres and we can think of those as little pods. We have several, about a half dozen farms which we’ve managed to piece together that are more than 5,000 acres. We have a 9,000 acre track in Lee County, Arkansas. and what we’ve focused on in our underwriting. bolting smaller farms onto our larger holdings. And that’s called plotage. There’s many terms for it. And it is similar to private equity, rolling up a number of small companies together. And that’s what we’re doing because some of the parts is so much more valuable. When a farmer thinks about, well, I can farm 9,000 acres and keep my labor and my equipment on this one farm, they’re certainly willing. to pay more rent than a 500 or 250 acre farm that’s 10 miles away. It’s just the economics of the unit. They have so much of their capital tied up in their labor and their equipment. And the more they can keep them concentrated and focused and use them and reuse the equipment in the same area, the more profit they’re gonna make. So that’s been our strategy to build out these regional farms. We’ll call them in the Mid-South and. It’s really worked. In fact, we’re building something that is so coveted by many different institutions that we know that the value of it, the value creation we’re doing is so important. And why is that? These pension funds and the Mormon Church is a big buyer in our area and some other folks that you’ve heard about in the news buy a lot of farmland. They don’t want to do the work that we do. They want to come in and buy a 5,000 acre fully improved tract. know, that has a three-year solid rent history. That’s what we build. We’re building those. And, you know, we’re building something that we don’t think we recreate. We’re long-term holders. We tell our investors that, you know, we intend to hold for the long term. There are opportunities, opportunistic times to sell, you know, but we do that rarely. We’re more holders of the ground over the long term and builders and continue to build because that scale and that regional presence is going to be unlike, you know, any other fund that we know of. 

Richard Cunningham Guys, this has been a great pod on so many fronts. And I’m so grateful the Faith Driven Investor audience is gonna kind of get to hear this and from the 101 to the going deeper and just all of it. There’s so many angles about what to like about what you guys are doing here. And so thank you for taking the time to educate our audience. And let’s close here. And this is our favorite question to ask on every FDI pod. Chris, we’ll start with you, but man, what’s God been teaching you guys and through his word lately? And we’ll wrap there with some good wisdom. 

Chris Morris Yeah, absolutely. And great question. And for me, over the last several months, I have two little kids and teaching them to pray at night with them before bed. And that’s also reinvigorated me to pray more in my own life, right? Sometimes it’s going back to the fundamentals and remembering the key elements of letting Jesus into your heart and living in that way. I have a Bible app on my phone actually and This morning, it was from Revelation. Here I am, I stand at the door and knock. And I think for me, it’s just remembering to open the door because God wants to help and He’s there. So. 

Richard Cunningham Come on, back to the fundamentals. John, what about you? Take us home. 

John Farris Yes, I’ve really been thinking in the last few months about control and like having, you know, the elements that may think are in our control or we may try to control really, you know, God’s got this. He’s got us and He holds us and helps us in so many ways that I, you know, have the tendency to try to want to over control situations, even situations that are in my control. So just taking a step back and realizing that There’s a higher power, there’s a higher meaning, and you know, he’s got a plan for us and what we’re doing, both the land fund and the rest of our lives. 

Richard Cunningham I cannot tell you how deeply in my bones I feel the control idol, as is my wife who suffers from that idol of mine. But I mean, thank you guys, Chris Morris, John Ferris, Land Fund Partners. Love the work you guys are up to. What a joy to have you on the Faith Driven Investor podcast. For Luke Roush, I’m Richard Cunningham. Thank you all for tuning in and we will catch you next time. 

Speaker 7 We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see listeners come in from more than 100 countries. Faith-driven investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors, looking to get the same answers to questions you have and find great community as they do so. There’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter at faithdriveninvesting.org. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends, executive producer Justin Forman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Draggs, audio and editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb. 

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Richard and John check in on two of the key trailblazers of the Faith Driven Investor Movement, Aimee Minnich & Jeff Johns of The Impact Foundation, to learn how Donor Advised Funds (DAFs) can help investors who want to use their capital for God’s Kingdom.

The four of them discuss the power and necessity of impact investing, the history and mission of Impact Foundation, and the importance of innovation and entrepreneurship in the charitable sector. 

Aimee also shares her recent experience testifying in front of legislators about rules surrounding donor-advised funds and gives practical next steps for those who want to get in the game with impact investing. 

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham: Welcome back everybody to another episode of the faith driven investor podcast. A joy to have you with us. If you are in the Northern hemisphere. I pray your summer has been friendlier to you than it has been to us here in Austin, Texas, from a weather perspective. It is scorching hot, but John Coleman, [00:01:00] that’s not what we’re here to talk about today, because we have two fabulous guests in the FDI podcast studio.

And my friend, you’ve actually been out of the Keller commentary seat for a few, uh, FDI podcasts recently, as you’ve been everywhere this summer speaking at conferences, hosting conferences. It looks like you’re at a conference right now. Welcome back, man. Good to have you here.

John Coleman: Yeah, scorching hot probably also describes all the commentary I have saved up for today, given that long absence and given the quality of the guests that we have today.

I’m very excited.

Richard Cunningham: You are exactly right. Jeff Johns, Aimee Minnich of the Impact Foundation, some of our closest friends, thought partners, people we look up to dearly here in the faith driven investor movement. It’s a household name here if you’re around the hoop of faith driven investor frequently. But Jeff and Aimee, so good to have you guys on.

Fun fact, Aimee actually hosted the very first ever FDI podcast roughly five years ago in July of 2019. So, Aimee, good to welcome you back.

Aimee Minnich: And it’s taken that long to get me back on because [00:02:00] that’s what they thought of my first performance. So, I guess y’all must have forgotten.

Richard Cunningham: It’s been a five year sabbatical.

Jeff great to have you here too, man. Let’s start with this, guys. I think it’s just kind of helpful to level set who, who is Impact Foundation. You guys have been such key contributors to the FDI movement, but not everyone knows all of the gaps that Impact Foundation steps into and what all you guys do.

So maybe a little bit of the history story of Impact Foundation, your stories, and then we’ll kind of go from there.

Jeff Johns: So Aimee and I both grew up in families where business was what we talked about at the dinner table, basically every night. And, you know, I think we knew about cashflow from a young age, probably around the same time as, um, our parents were, you know, discounting the value of our Christmas presents and talking to us about if we’d invested that money instead, what that might look like.

And so that was kind of part of our blood. Uh, Aimee’s younger than me and her family, I think came into, uh, business and wealth a little bit later, [00:03:00] but for mine, it was always kind of part and parcel of everything we did. And You know, I went through a journey for a long time, kind of wrestling with some questions that are a little bit more common now about how much is enough and where we should spend our lives.

And at the same time, you know, I was really trying to seek, you know, what does it mean to be successful in business? And what does it mean to live a life of meaning? And that led to a few mentors who told me like, look, if you want to be in business to give away money, Maybe you should go upstream a little bit and help this burgeoning generosity movement with all the things that are happening there.

And so I went and interviewed with Daryl Heald, and he told me what was going on at Generous Giving. And then I talked with David Wills at the National Christian Foundation. And it was like all of a sudden, the purpose that God had for me at that season was revealed. I was the first MBA at a table of accountants and attorneys at the National Christian Foundation when they hired me.

I was 28 years old and a newly minted [00:04:00] MBA and thought I knew a few things and it was quite a ride for those first few years where I got to help NCF grow their offices and it was so easy. Our good friend Kevin Palau would just call me and tell me which cities he had been working in and who was ready for an NCF office and then Chuck Bentley at Crown would tell me where they had Crown champions.

And I would get together with those two groups of people and just say, Hey, do you want to start a community foundation for Jesus? But you can do the relationship and we’ll do the accounting, the software, the technical stuff, all the boring stuff. And it was the easiest sale ever. And so that led to just this tremendous growth period.

And during that time, one of my favorite affiliates was the affiliate in Kansas city. And Aimee was running that. And we got to know each other pretty well. She saw me as she would call me the corporate stooge. It’s not

Aimee Minnich: fair to lie, Jeff. You lied and said that we were your favorite. No, I said you were one of

Jeff Johns: my favorite.

Aimee Minnich: Okay, alright. Fair. [00:05:00] That’s fair. We had a lot of fun and we really didn’t take no for an answer. Like if a donor asked us for something, we were going to do it. And so that’s actually how we got into impact investing because one day we had a family call us and say, Hey, we want to make a loan to a ministry in Uganda.

And I’m thinking to myself, I’m sure that’s not illegal. We can probably figure that out. And so we did, we figured out how to make a loan from a donor advised fund to, uh, this ministry in Uganda. And that was the beginning, tiny little seed that became impact foundation. Impact foundation is like really fancy plumbing.

In some ways, I mean, we’re more than that, but at our core, we’re like plumbing for financial resources. So you have 1. 4 trillion dollars that’s been set aside in private foundations and donor advised funds nationally, and 7 to 10 percent is given away each year, which means there’s more than a trillion dollars that’s been set aside for charitable giving.

People have [00:06:00] gotten a tax deduction on it and it’s waiting to be given away. And while it’s waiting, it’s invested in something. We exist to put that to work in something for the kingdom of God. So it might be hydroelectric dams in Honduras. It could be solar farms or solar installations in Southeast Asia, agriculture in Africa, or one of our very favorites.

Sovereign’s capital.

John Coleman: Can I ask a question touching on what you guys both touched on? Because Jeff started off saying, you know, we both grew up in families where we talked business every day at the table. And Aimee, I love what you just said, where you basically said anytime a donor comes to us and wants to do something, we’re going to help them figure it out.

And I would say one of the challenges often in the nonprofit sector is kind of, a lack of an entrepreneurial spirit within certain organizations, right? Particularly in the charitable sector over time, the institutional charitable sector and the donor advised fund structure was actually huge innovation in charitable giving and philanthropy.

And what you guys have done [00:07:00] from my point of view is dive in and innovate on that even further in the spirit of enabling other people’s entrepreneurship. Like, where do you think that comes from? And how do you as a team keep that spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship alive in the charitable sector?

Aimee Minnich: Yeah, I’ll jump in on that. So donor advice funds were invented in the early 1900s. So like 1917. Is that right? Yeah, 1917, 1918.

Jeff Johns: Wow. That’s

Aimee Minnich: when they were innovated. Was it the Cleveland

Jeff Johns: Foundation, Aimee?

Aimee Minnich: Maybe they were one of the early ones. The one I’m thinking of is in New York. And so there were these community foundations, people who wanted to come together as community members and do what they saw Rockefeller Foundation and others doing at a big scale.

And so community foundations were a way for the everyman, sort of, to be able to give back. And then we saw the rise of community foundations and donor advised fund sponsors. But when Fidelity Charitable and Vanguard and Schwab Came on the scene and said, you know, we’re not just going to offer financial [00:08:00] services.

We’re going to also help our clients with these giving tools. That’s when we saw this explosion of donor advice funds. And when we saw that explosion of donor advice funds, we saw some rules come into play. In 2006, we finally got the pension protection act to give a definition to donor advice funds and start some regulation.

And when he said, we talked about. Business around the dinner table. That was not an exaggeration. That’s like literally all we talked about. Like what’s the loss ratio? What’s the return item ratio? What’s the latest marketing campaign? Who are we acquiring this week and how is that going? And who are the problem employees?

Like. And I thought that was normal. And so that’s how my brain is wired. I remember I was practicing law and I walked into the corner office of the guy whose name was on the door and I was working on a project for him. I sat down at his table and I asked him about, you know, there’s stacks and stacks and stacks of files on his desk.

And he said, you know, some of those [00:09:00] files have been there for 40 years. I’ve been working with these families for 40 years, and I remember thinking to myself, Oh my gosh, I think I’m gonna die. I cannot. Imagine doing the same thing for the same people for 40 years. That sounds so boring. If there wasn’t an innovation to happen in donor advised funds, Jeff and I would have come up with one because there’s really only so many times you can talk about.

before you’re like, okay, what’s next?

Jeff Johns: And that being said, something that I find fascinating is I run into people every day who have no idea about the power and simplicity of giving through a donor advised fund. So it’s still for us, obviously we talk about it all the time, but it is so powerful. It’s such a great way of giving your best asset cash is the worst way to give.

Appreciated stock, much better private stock, better yet. And so when you have those liquidity events, you can create tons and tons of [00:10:00] generosity and the simplicity and the reporting of donor advice fund is super powerful. One of my favorite things about our innovation at impact foundation is we do not want to be your primary donor advice fund.

We work hand in glove with all the donor advice funds out there to do impact investing. You should not mess around. I think Luke Roush once said you shouldn’t dabble in private equity. And you really shouldn’t dabble in impact investing with charitable capital either, because there is so many things that have to be done properly in order to do this well.

So we’re the solution, not only for our good friends at the National Christian Foundation to partner with for donor advised funds to impact investments, but we work with Fidelity Charitable. We work with all the community foundations, Waterstone, the Signature, any of those people who want this done, we get to work with them.

And we specialize in The tax, the investment, all the side that has to do with investing with charitable capital, which is great.

Aimee Minnich: You’re kind of underselling how you specifically, you Jeff Johns, got into [00:11:00] this, right? I mean, you’d gone to Hong Kong to open up an NCF affiliate in Asia, and you came home and who was it that called you?

That friend of yours who called and said, you know, Jeff, every time I pray for you, the phrase impact investing comes to mind. And this is what like January, 2015.

Jeff Johns: Yeah. Mike. And he met me in Hong Kong actually. And he was working on some stuff there. And he’s been our good friend from Houston for a long time.

And it was a whole confluence of things where family after family that we talked to has said some version of, look, we went deep with generous giving. And we’ve decided that we don’t need more money for ourselves. And our kids don’t need more money, but we love to make money and we love private investments.

So God created us to do that. Can we use our charitable capital to make these private investments? And so saying yes to them was great. And now one of my favorite conversations, I get 75 year olds all the time who say. I’m not sure I should enter into a 10 year fund at [00:12:00] this point in my life, right?

They’re like, uh, I don’t want to burden my kids with 64 K 1s that they have to manage. And so for people like that, we manage all the K 1s. All their kids have to do is give away the proceeds for these impact investments. So there’s so many little fun things that have come up for how we can serve these families who are generous.

Richard Cunningham: Alright friends, so while we’re talking mechanics of donor advised funds and all that impact foundation can do as a specialty type of donor advised fund that’s making impact investments with charitable capital, Aimee, you’re our resident attorney in the room. And so, I want you to really quickly just for our audience to define a donor advice fund super simply just so we’re kind of all clear there before we go forward.

And then in light of that, you were actually just on Capitol Hill testifying in front of our legislatures about some rules around donor advice funds. So what are kind of some of the updates in this space and why is it pertinent to Impact Foundation and what’s going on in kind of the broader redemptive investing movement?

Aimee Minnich: Yeah, a donor advised fund is simply a [00:13:00] charitable checking account. You can put money in or put an asset in and get a deduction, a tax deduction at that moment. And because you got a tax deduction for it, it’s gone forever from your pocketbook. You can’t get it back, but you have authority to recommend grants and recommend investments.

And like I mentioned before, there’s over a trillion dollars in private foundations and donor advised funds nationally. And most of the time while you’re waiting to grant it, you can invest it in some version of a pool of capital that ranges from conservative to very, very conservative. And then when you’re ready to make the grant, you make the grant.

And our innovation on that is saying, Hey, wait a minute, actually, you know, we’ve heard our friends say every investment has an impact. What if we actually intentionally tried to place capital? Into companies that align with our mission. And so let’s say your normal donor advised fund is at Fidelity or at NCF.

You would grant to impact foundation, recommend an [00:14:00] investment to us. We’ll do the vetting, we’ll sign the paperwork and then we’ll fund the investment. And then when the returns come back, they go back to your donor advised fund at impact foundation to either reinvest. Or you can send it to your donor advice fund it came from originally.

And so donor advice funds are these really flexible, helpful tools for my family and I, my husband and I love to use a donor advice fund for our giving because it separates the step of obedience, like actually giving money, taking it out of our own bank account, which we do right away. As soon as money comes in, we, you know, tithe on it or give what we feel like the Lord has called us to give, put it right in that donor advice fund.

And then that step of obedience is complete. And then we can wait and listen to the Lord about what he might be calling us to do. And so we have some grants that we set up that are automatic and recurring. And then sometimes, you know, we have some friends who were missionaries in Ukraine. They got kicked out of Ukraine.

And so we had the opportunity to help them relocate and make some special [00:15:00] gifts to them. to actually get them back on their feet with their missions agency in Poland. And so things like that, if we didn’t have this sort of savings account for giving, we wouldn’t have the same flexibility that we do.

John Coleman: One, I think that’s such an important point before you jump into the hill, Aimee, because I hear people express this concern sometimes about DAFs, where they wonder, you know, if you’re giving, shouldn’t you be giving it away right away?

It doesn’t adapt, just kind of prevent you from passing along to the end charity. And I’d say my observation is just like yours. It has made us much more consistent givers because just like you, basically we have NCF withdraw, A percentage of my normal income, whenever that comes in every month, we know when it comes in, it’s a percentage.

And then we do more when there’s other events that would cause additional income. We then have the opportunity instead of like rushing to figure out how to give that away at the end of the year. I’m always shocked with the nonprofit boards. I’m on how that last couple of weeks in December, there’s like this flood of donations and it’s people kind of wanting to hit their target or wanting to do something, but not having been [00:16:00] thoughtful or considerate about it.

Whereas we don’t do that anymore at all. We, I mean, we kind of give throughout the year. When we plan to do so with the organizations were involved with and the technology between, as you said, the kind of primary donor advised fund, which you guys work with. And you all is so simple. I actually I don’t think we’ve talked about this.

I did a transfer to my impact foundation account this morning and it took all of Probably 60 seconds, I think, to get it done for the thing that I was transferring it into. And your team is just always so well prepared, so professional, so helpful through that process. And so I think it can be intimidating when people hear these types of things.

Like, maybe this is hard. I don’t know if I can figure it out. I’m going to wait on this. And I just love it because it makes us so much more consistent and thoughtful, as you said. And it’s so simple.

Jeff Johns: Yes. The other thing I love about the Donor Advice Fund, when we go to fundraisers, I know my wife is always going to ask me this one question.

How much have we given to these people over the last X [00:17:00] amount of years? And my family started a private foundation before we knew about National Christian Foundation. And if I had to ask our accountants how much we had given, it would probably take a month. But if I pull up my NCF account, I can figure it out within 30 seconds.

And then she’ll say, what’s your number? And we almost always have relatively close to the same number. We enter the grant before we leave the rubber chicken dinner and it’s done. It’s like so great. So it’s really, really helpful in the data and the simplicity.

Aimee Minnich: I heard a stat one time, and I want to say it’s from Barna, but I don’t know for sure, that the average person who thinks they’re giving to their church monthly, so, you know, you ask somebody, how often do you tithe?

Well, they say every month, but actually they’re really giving nine to ten times. People who think they give monthly, Forget sometimes. And it ends up being 9 to 10 times per month. So a donor advised fund, because you can set those recurring grants, actually makes people more regular and consistent in the discipline of giving.

And I say discipline in the spirit of [00:18:00] Richard Cunningham Foster, because it’s a spiritual activity. Giving money is a spiritual activity, not just a transaction.

Richard Cunningham: That’s really good. So Aimee, tell us a little bit about what happened on Capitol Hill.

Aimee Minnich: Yeah, I’m not sure if I was technically on Capitol Hill. I was at the IRS building, but it’s pretty close, like neighbors.

I was in the neighborhood. Fair enough. Thanks. So in 2006, Congress passed the Pension Protection Act. It added to the Internal Revenue Code the first time there was ever a definition for donor advised fund.

And then they made some rules. And most of the rules that they made sort of paralleled rules that were already in place for private foundations. And so, and then they said to the treasury, Hey, treasury, you can go create some interpretive rules to help people figure out what we meant because we didn’t say everything we meant.

So you can fill it in for us. So fast forward a few years to 2023. So there’s a long time, we waited a long time and the treasury promulgated some proposed rules and I’ll [00:19:00] say it as kindly as I can possibly say it. They were not well received within the donor advised fund community. And there were, you know, four sort of consistent themes that everybody wanted to talk about and sort of raise caution flags about.

But I didn’t hear any of the commentators talking about the one that felt most significant from our perspective, which is around investing. And so I reluctantly said to Jeff, Hey Jeff, I kind of think I need to submit a response letter to the IRS. And he’s like, I don’t know that that’s a good idea. Will they even listen?

Jeff Johns: You know what happens with that, right? Yeah, exactly.

Aimee Minnich: He didn’t want me to raise attention of the IRS, but I felt like it was really, really important. And so then what happens in this rulemaking process is if enough people send in a letter and say, Hey, we’d like a hearing, the IRS is obligated to. provide a hearing and listen to the testimony.

And so then you have to submit to provide testimony, and they had set [00:20:00] aside one day for testimony. They actually ended up having to do two full days of testimony because there were so many people who wanted to tell the IRS ways in which they could make the proposed rules better. And so I did that, and it was really kind of fun, actually.

I learned a lot. I met new people. Other lawyers and other experts in the space. The only downside was I had to wear heels all day and that is a total drag. But otherwise it was really cool. I don’t know how it’s going to turn out. The IRS and the treasury are pretty closed lipped on how these things will come out.

But the other big thing that happened, and I’m sorry to be a Supreme court deke, but there was a huge case that just came down a couple of weeks ago. Overturning a 1984 case. Yeah. called Chevron, which, uh, the Chevron deference has been overturned now. And so we’re not exactly certain what that’s going to mean going forward.

But one thing that seems pretty clear to everybody who knows these sorts of things is regulatory bodies will be [00:21:00] more careful when they create new rules because the courts don’t have to provide the same level of deference that they used to to regulatory agencies issuing rules. So all that to say, I’m pretty confident.

Actually, I’m confident a lot of the time, and sometimes I’m right. But I’m pretty confident that the proposed rules are not going to get enacted.

Richard Cunningham: Well, good rundown. I mean, sorry about the heels, it sounds like a very successful and fantastic trip and prayerful for positive outcomes as well. All right. So something if people have been listening to the FDI podcast for the last few months that they hear John and I talking about all the time is this concept of getting in the game of faith driven investing.

And we’re hopeful and prayerful that faith driven investors will come to see that all that God has given us. giving them the steward as an opportunity to faithfully and obediently step into what he’s called them, whether it be your income statement, your balance sheet, whatever it is. And so impact foundation is knocking on the door of almost 600 million out.

Impact investments, which is incredibly exciting. But as you [00:22:00] guys think about the concept of getting in the game of faith driven investing, talk about the stories of investors where you’ve been super inspired, the mechanics of how impact foundation is enabling people to do that with charitable capital, maybe as opposed to just their normal, traditional investment capital.

How you all think about counseling investors when you run into a situation when someone’s like, Hey, I want to do this investment. Should I do it through my donor advice fund or should I do it with personal capital? Yeah. Educate us and coaches up there.

Jeff Johns: Yeah. So one of the things that I think is incredibly important to understand when we started at impact foundation, impact investing, wasn’t quite as proven out the products.

, but now there is so much great product out there. Yeah. And so we need to be very certain that people do not. Use the thought about charitable capital to say, okay, I’ll do my impact investing with my charity money and I’ll take all the rest of my money and just kind of do it according to wall streets tenants.

So we tell people all the time, let’s get in the game and move a percentage. And I know, you know, faith driven investors starting to talk about what does it look like to [00:23:00] maybe have 20 percent of all your capital aligned. We’re all stewards. Every dollar that we have belongs to the Lord and we stored it equally.

So impact foundation, the decision to use charitable capital is simply. Do I have extra money sitting around in a private foundation or a donor advised fund or do I need a tax deduction this year? Those are the two drivers of why you would decide to use charitable capital to make your impact investment.

There’s a third for a particular subset of families I mentioned earlier. Families who have decided that they do not need any more money for themselves and their kids don’t need any more money just do all their investing with their charitable dollars. And people like that do exist. They’re some of the most Fun, free, humble, amazing families that we work with who are just like, Oh yeah, it’s all gods.

And I’m going to put his name on every investment that I do. So those are kind of the three reasons that you would use impacts foundation, but we never want people to say, Oh, well, you know, I’ll do impact investing with charitable dollars and I’ll do regular investing with kind of my other dollars because the products are all too good now.

And there’s too much movement [00:24:00] that’s been made in this space. So that being said, some people want to dip their toe in the water before they jump into the swimming pool. And so we’re a great way to kind of do maybe a first test run with an impact investments.

John Coleman: Can I ask a followup question about what Jeff just articulated?

Because I did have one of those topics on my mind and I’ll tell you in my mind, Your uses of capital between giving and investing fall on a spectrum. That’s the way that I think about it, at least in that, you know, on one hand, you really are looking for high return investments, whether those be values oriented or not, because we agree completely that you can have values aligned, high return investments.

On the other hand, you have. kind of pure philanthropy. And there is this category of impact investing that we typically would call concessionary, where either the risk is greater than is justified by the return, so it wouldn’t commonly be viewed as a responsible or more fiduciary investment, or where the return is Consciously sacrifice for mission where it’s mission first and return second rather than [00:25:00] holding those two things in tension, and I’ve known Investors who have also considered uses of charitable capital for investing in things that are intentionally concessionary Right where they’re very purposefully placing the mission of what they’re doing above the return and their perspective, for example, is and I’m going to lay out the case for you.

So you can tell me how you think about this or what you hear from investors. But this I’ve heard before where they’ll say, you know, I really want to do good work with this. I want to have a positive impact on society with these charitable dollars. I think, actually, in this case, rather than pure philanthropy, the right answer is to invest in this thing.

I know it’s unlikely to get the same return as investments I might otherwise pick in a portfolio, but I’m comfortable with that, right? Because I’m really choosing to do a philanthropic activity. An example of this, you know, guys might be something overseas, for example, where there’s currency risk, there are other risks, the markets are uncertain, but you say, you know what, instead of donating to this area, because I think maybe my charitable [00:26:00] dollars might have a perverse incentive in this area.

situation. I’m going to invest in something, right? Or it might be with, you know, there are certain instances of like school bonds, for example, where you’re getting a very low return on your fixed income money, but you’re helping to fund schools, public charter schools, Christian schools, et cetera, as they’re being built.

So there’s almost quasi philanthropic intent with that. How do you think about that? Is that a case that you commonly hear? How do you advise people when they’re thinking about it that way?

Aimee Minnich: For sure. It’s something we hear a lot, and I also have a friend who challenges the use of the word concessionary.

Because he said, if we’re thinking about it in terms of total return, maybe your financially driven investment is concessionary on impact. And I’m hopeful, I’m genuine when I say this, I am truly hopeful that in 25 or 30 years, the measurement on impact is so powerful and robust that we can actually figure out how to quantify the impact that we’re having so that we can compare it to the financial return.

And then we only call concessionary things that don’t have [00:27:00] Impact commensurate with the financial return that they’re providing to investors. So with the caveat that I’m not a hundred percent in love with concessionary language, I understand the point you’re making and it’s totally valid. There are a lot of people who say I would never invest in a Christian movie.

with my own money, but it’s a great use of charitable capital because, you know, the last grant I made was a zero return investment. So even if I get some of this back, it’s better than the last grant I made, and I think it can have outsized return. Now, the Christian movie example is a not great one because the spectrum or the landscape for investing in film and media is changing, but it used to be the case that, why would you ever invest in a Christian movie?

Maybe we should use a different example.

John Coleman: But I do think there’s a case here, you know, a lot of folks I talk to, we’ve all become familiar with where pure philanthropy can, in certain circumstances, actually be destructive. And there’s, I think a lot of us believe that Implementing market forces, like in the developing world, for [00:28:00] example, there have been numerous examples.

I spent a little while in my professional career working in Afghanistan, where charitable capital, especially from governments, actually quite often had a perverse impact on that society. It actually accomplished the opposite of what it intended to. And incorporating market forces so you can build more sustainable industry within that society so that you can help to build the right incentive structures for people.

In that society, and so that’s part of it too, Aimee. I think it’s like there’s also this move from thinking either I got to go invest in the S& P 500 or I got to go give money away. You know, somewhere in the developing world or something like that to saying, Hey, maybe we can kind of combine this impact.

I’d like to see in the world. This vision I have for positive social outcomes with what I believe to be true, which is starting businesses or running enterprises or investing or actually the more sustainable ways of creating human flourishing in a society. And so that’s one of the things I love about the space you all occupies.

I do think. You’re one of the [00:29:00] levers that’s making that type of decision more possible for people and helping people with that calculus more intentionally, at least from my perspective.

Jeff Johns: Well, not only that, it’s the dignity that comes along. With the value that is created, because right now you’re in the developing world and someone comes and gives you money so that you can take care of your kids.

And you feel a certain way about yourself and your country and God. And then instead, somebody comes and invests money in you and you create value and you pay them a return. You’re not beholden to them. They’re not like somebody who’s come to save you. They’re just an investor. And you have the pride of saying, now I’m going to change what’s happening in my community.

And, you know, I used to be on the board of the seed company, which has a lot of Bible translation. And just over the last few years, I’ve been. Africans started paying for Bible translation in Africa instead of Americans paying for Bible. How cool is that? So there’s all this dignity to say, okay, it’s now time to change the paradigm.

Yes, we have some [00:30:00] investment capital that they don’t have that we can, you know, speed things up, but they are taking a little bit and turning it into a lot and God told us to be fruitful and multiply and so I just love the example of them being able to do that.

John Coleman: And then the other side, I think the thing you all are equipping is, and you mentioned this with the rise of DAS at like Fidelity and Schwab.

Typically within a Fidelity or Schwab, you can basically invest in index funds or public companies, right? This is it. And what you all are doing is giving the individual. Some of the capabilities of a big family foundation or endowment or a nonprofit where you can get into more sophisticated, higher return products so that over time, your charitable capital is growing even more aggressively, potentially, if you invest it well, and you’re basically making these tools available to normal people who don’t have hundreds of millions of dollars in a private family foundation.

And so I think that’s the other really neat innovation right where Even if it’s a high return investment that someone’s going into that’s more focused on that, even though it has impact oriented, Aimee, as you mentioned, that tool is available to you [00:31:00] now in a way that it probably wasn’t before. And certainly isn’t at most of the major donor advice funds today.

Aimee Minnich: That was the motivation of one of our earliest clients and board members. They said, our high return years are probably in the past, you know, we’ve sold our company. They had actually sold it twice, I think. And they said, and yet we have these ministries that we love to support. And we want to make sure that we are able to create a revenue stream for funding them into perpetuity.

But the three to 4 percent that we can get in one of these safe index funds.

And so they started putting their money in private equity and venture capital firms or funds, and the money that they’re making from that is funding the growth of their grants that they’re able to make. And so it’s kind of a win all the way around.

Richard Cunningham: That’s awesome. With all this in mind, Before we go to kind of our signature closing question where we ask you about what God’s teaching you in scripture, how about a investment inside your portfolio, a story from each of you about some of your kind of like, this is what makes [00:32:00] impact foundation so special investment stories.

Jeff Johns: So one, I just, I like the simple ones that are easy for people to understand. And it also happened to be the 500 millionth dollar that we invested is in a group called pure flow. So pure flow is in Uganda. And what they do, if you’ve been to Uganda, the way that the average citizen gets around is on the back of a motorcycle called a bota bota.

So the taxi drivers, you know, they can’t afford a regular car and the traffic is terrible. And so the bota botas get people from here to there very quickly. The average bota bota driver cannot even afford to send their children to school because they’re just working for the person who owns the motorcycle.

It’s a 1, 200 investment for them to buy the motorcycle, which would be a lifetime for them to usually get together. But we can give them that 1, 200 investment at a relatively low interest rate. They’re paying back between 12 and 18 months at a 97 percent rate. Every single vote, a voted driver. to a Bible study and the majority of them get in a group and start to kind [00:33:00] of do life together and think about other things because as soon as they own their own motorcycle, they finally have some free cash flow.

They have some wealth to deal with. They have some giving questions of their own to deal with on kind of a micro level that then gets bigger and bigger. And a lot of them start second and third businesses within three years. So just so simple, like, Thank you. 1, 200, what I would pay for a plane ticket these days, I can change someone’s life, give them an asset that now means that they can start creating wealth.

Aimee Minnich: We have over 600 investments and I sit on both sides. I sign all the transaction documents. And so sometimes skeptical me says my favorite investment is the one that isn’t causing me difficulty. But that’s only when I’m really grumpy. Really, actually, some of my favorite investments lately have been in film and media.

Because my kids are 12, 13, and 16. And one of the things that we actually all enjoy and nobody argues about is watching a fun story together. And it’s one of the few times where [00:34:00] we can all, like all five of us, two boys and a girl and a mom and dad, sit down and get along and not have to talk about whether you’ve done your homework and did you put your laundry away and all of the things that sometimes feel heavy.

Watching a redemptive story together is actually brings us together and yet it’s really hard to find great stories to watch as a family. So selfishly I love some of the film investments we make because it gives my family and I something to watch. But also, I think even bigger than that, these stories that we’re able to bring into the world, like the possum trot story that just came out on July 4th, is a fantastic story and motivator to get people thinking about how the church can care for orphans and kids in foster care in really impactful ways.

And so to me, those are some of the most fun things that we get to be a part of.

Richard Cunningham: Thanks for breaking that down, guys. All right, well, take us home with this and we’ll close here. What’s the Lord been teaching you in and through his word lately? [00:35:00]

Aimee Minnich: In repentance and rest is my salvation, in quietness and trust is my strength.

And it sounds really simple and very easy, and yet it’s very, very difficult to live out. I am a person who feels like, Showing my own weakness would be, like, life threatening. Like, how could anybody ever take me seriously if they saw me as a weak person? And yet, in quietness and trust is my strength. So actually, when I stop talking, or when I stop problem solving, or when I stop trying to fix things myself, that’s when I really find true strength.

Jeff Johns: So, at Impact Foundation, we get together every day and we pray. And that’s been amazing. Aimee a while ago said, let’s just have a day where we’re just worshiping. We’re not asking God for anything. And so Monday, there’s no prayer requests. It’s no like, Hey, my dog’s sick or anything like that. It’s just purely like worshiping God.

And so we’ve tried to keep it fresh. And so one of the team members had an idea that we [00:36:00] should look into our favorite hymns. And then we will talk about the hymn, listen to the hymn, and read through it. And so, I went this week and I chose, Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing. And if you remember one of the lines there is, Here I raise my Ebenezer.

And so I started looking into it, and an Ebenezer is a time when you know without a doubt that God has intervened in your life. And so what I’m trying to do is to remember and give thanks for those times and share them with my kids, share them with my friends and family to show the glory of the Lord because God intervenes in our life so often.

And sometimes I feel like, like my kids, when I do things for them, I appreciate it when they’re like, Hey, thanks dad, that was awesome or whatever. And I think God’s waiting for us every once in a while to maybe notice some of the things that he does for us. And so I’m trying harder just to say, Hey, God, thank you.

That is an amazing display of your glory and your blessing to me.

John Coleman: Well, Jeff, Aimee, I think I speak for myself and a bunch of other folks in the ecosystem saying that you all have [00:37:00] been truly instrumental. To growing faith driven investing, I think y’all are sitting at the heart of some of the most important innovations in the giving world, as well as the investing world.

And I know y’all’s hearts are in it. You really have a passion for this, Jeff and Aimee, both. I mean, hearing you even talk about the investments you’re excited about, it just reminds me, you know, how much you all really care about what you’re doing and what it took, the sacrifices it took to innovate this and bring it together.

And the spirit of collaboration that you bring to this place, working with the other donor advised funds, working with different. Asset managers, different investments with different givers. This is all about how you can help to coordinate people for a greater purpose. And so I hope if folks haven’t checked it out before, Hey, I hope everybody listening to the FDI podcast at this point has a donor advised fund.

If you do not have a donor advised fund, get out there. Check them out. There are some awesome ones that Jeff talked about earlier. And secondly, I hope that everyone with a donor advised fund is also looking at impact foundation and thinking about how they can partner with impact [00:38:00] foundation and their primary donor advised fund to begin to explore this investing universe even more aggressively and think about some of the really neat things that they could do with their charitable capital.

So Jeff, Aimee, thank you so much for being with us today. And we’re so grateful for the work that you’re doing.

Aimee Minnich: Thank you.

Jeff Johns: Thank you, John. Thanks, Richard Cunningham. You guys are amazing partners.

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In this joint release episode Richard Cunningham and Justin Foreman discuss the problem of joblessness as part of the initiative, Solving the World’s Greatest Problems. They are joined by Keren Pybus, CEO of Ethical Apparel Africa, and Ronald Ishak, CEO of Hacktiv8. They explore the impact of job creation and upskilling on individuals, families, and communities.

Episode Transcript

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. And you’re about to hear this, right? The Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast as well. Really exciting episode today as we were doing a joint release on both the FDI and FDE pods. As Justin Forman, executive director, co-founder, president of Faith Driven Movements, is in the podcast studio with me today. And Justin, we’re shaking things up a little bit, doing a joint release for the faith driven Investor and Faith and Entrepreneur podcast. As we were zooming in a little bit on a new initiative we have. Solving the world’s greatest problems, Solving the world’s greatest Problems has its own website, its own podcast. It is newly launched, newly released. And today we kind of want to go out to the FDA and FDA audiences respectively, and zoom in on one of those great problems, the problem of joblessness. And we’ll welcome our guests here shortly. But Justin, what are we up to today with this kind of special edition joint release podcast?

Justin Forman Man, good to be on the podcast with you again. You make it sound all fancy and technical like we had some deep, deep things to get to, but we were just looking for an excuse to get Richard Cunningham back on the podcast here for Faith Driven Entrepreneur. So we’re going to take what we can get. We’re competing with Baylor Baseball, Baylor Sports and all the different things that you’re commentating and jumping in on. I mean, yeah, it’s great to be back here together. It’s great to be talking about issues that matter and talking about things that matter. And so many of you guys, if you’re familiar with that, you’re an entrepreneur and faith driven investor. I’ve been following long of a new initiative called Solving the World’s Greatest Problems. And what we endeavored to do with that is to say, what can we do to create a trusted place that people can discover ways that they might be called to get involved? You know, I think when we think about this message, we think about this idea 20 years ago, information was scarce. I mean, I was looking the other day at some of these images when they were talking about Google when it first launched and some of the first images to it. And they had the search bar and right underneath it and it said like, you know, searching 250,000 pages or something like that and more coming soon or whatever it is. And it was like the point was, is when they first launched, they were trying to make the case for more information is coming. More information is coming. Hold on. Today, 20 years later, we’re at the exact opposite where we have to use machine learning. We have to use other things to try to take all of the complex and make it accessible. And so solving the world’s greatest problems is trying to be that bridge, trying to be a place that as God moves you as an entrepreneur or an investor to get involved, that you can find that first step. And so we do that through content. We do that through stories, we do that through podcasts. But that’s just the start. There’s going to be so much more coming from giving collaborations and groups to to give and to invest together with. And so there’s a lot of that that’s coming. But where we have started is we have started with some content, we started some podcast, and so you may have been able to check that out. There’s been a couple of episodes recently released where we talked about the idea, we talk about the campaign, and then we started to talk about some of these upstream issues, starting with gospel poverty. We had David Platt, we had Mart Green. Let’s talk about just some of the opportunities are in front of us and today we’re present into this idea of joblessness. And as you saw our creative team, if you check this out on the site, you’ll see this this image of these dominoes. And we really think that this is one of those issues represented by those dominoes. It’s upstream that if we can get some of this stuff right, not only can we find ways to better care for people and avoid some of the hurts and heartaches that come about when that’s not the case, but to we can just think about the opportunity that entrepreneurs, investors have, that we can be sources of either redemption or brokenness. That’s a very way that we go about it. We could be furthering some of the world’s problems if we’re not careful, or we can be a source on the other side. So yeah, super excited to talk about that. Today. We’re going to press on with some fun guests about this issue. But before we do that, we wanted to give you a little teaser. This is a little teaser, a couple of minutes of an episode for solving the World’s Greatest Problems podcast. It’s a fun style where it’s kind of like how I built this Guy Raz versus Radiolab just kind of mashed up together of all of these stories in a fun, engaging way. So let’s listen to that and then Richard will kick us off and some conversation.

Narrator What happens when a job is lost? Many of us understand the individual challenges one might face in unemployment. You know, things like increased stress, depression and insecurity. But that’s not even the worst part of it. The compounding effects of joblessness often lead to worse schooling outcomes for children, and those same children will have a much more difficult time in the labor market getting jobs once they become adults. Now, let’s let’s zoom out a little bit further and think about this on a macro level. Picture an entire community of people facing unemployment. Think about all the individuals who would struggle with their mental health. Think about the families this would affect. These are not imagined scenarios. You know, we can look at a city like Detroit in the United States and see the effects of joblessness on an entire community. In the mid 20th century, Detroit was a booming city with nearly 2 million people. It was among the country’s five most populous cities as people came in droves to work for the auto industry. Jobs were plentiful until suddenly. They weren’t between 1950 and 2010. The city saw more than a 60% decrease in its population. In 2013, the entire city filed for bankruptcy, and by 2022, the poverty rate was 33.8%, more than twice the average of the rest of the state of Michigan. Today, nearly half of all the children in Detroit grow up in poverty. While no one can limit the city’s downfall to one specific thing. There’s no doubt that the radical decrease in employment accelerated its downfall. The auto industry that once played the city’s hero quickly became the villain as thousands upon thousands of jobs were lost. And the lack of jobs affects more than the worker. You know, joblessness can shatter families, communities and entire cities. But that means the flipside is also true. Job creation can create positive and generational impact. It revitalizes, redeems and restores. My name is Afl-cio John. I’m the director of Global prosperity at the Cleveland Christian. And I’ll be a host of this episode of Solving the World’s Greatest. Today on the show, we’re going to talk about ways that Christian builders, investors and givers are helping the church win in this fight against darkness by creating jobs that bring positive and lasting change. Now let’s dive in. Act one Creating better systems. We’ll start the show off today addressing the urgency of the situation. Now, if you’d like to stress yourself out about the future, just take a look at recent studies on the global job market. A recent report by the World Economic Forum forecast that in the next five years, job growth will increase by 69 million. That sounds pretty good until you read on. There will also be a decline of 83 million jobs in that same time period. In essence, we are going to lose more jobs than we gain. And to be clear, this data represents a job market across the entire world. Sometimes people hear about the issue of joblessness and mentally relegated to certain countries or think that it only applies to developing regions. But wealthier economies are not immune to the changing winds. In fact, Jack Kelly, a senior contributor for Forbes, wrote an article in 2023 summarizing a study by Goldman Sachs that predicts that 300 million jobs will be lost because of artificial intelligence. Kelly puts the issue bluntly in the article, writing that if generative A.I. lives up to its hype, the workforce in the United States and Europe will be upended. This is a global issue, but it is not unsolvable. Many of our brothers and sisters around the world have been fighting this battle already, and they have been winning, especially in areas where joblessness is not a new problem.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone. All right. Let’s dive into today’s conversation. We have got a couple of just extraordinary seasoned builders. And while Justin Foreman and I are both in the state of Texas, I’m in Austin and Justin is up in the DFW area. We are traveling across the world for this one as we have Keren Pybus of Ethical Apparel Africa, located in West Africa. And Ronald Ishak of Hacktiv8 coming to us from Jakarta, Indonesia. So what a joy to have so many geographies and time zones covered. Friends. Ronald, we’ll start with you. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being with us.

Ronald Ishak Thanks for having me.

Richard Cunningham It’s fun. Yeah, absolutely. And Keren, you as well. Hey, let’s do this to kind of help set the stage. How about a 30 to 60 second kind of intro and background from each of you personally and professionally? And then we’ll get going.

Keren Pybus Okay. Hi, I’m Keren, and I’m the CEO of Ethical Apparel Africa and the co founder. We are seeking to create jobs in West Africa through ethical apparel manufacturing. We have a factory there and work with multiple other factories as well to create jobs through an ethical way of manufacturing clothing where we put all of our profits back into the workers and worker empowerment and creating the best place to work. We want to do it on a large scale, so we’re mainly exporting to the US and a bit to the UK and Europe. I’ve been in the textile and fashion industry for 30 years, so it’s my passion and my love all together.

Ronald Ishak Yeah. And I’m Ronald Ishak and I do have debate. I’ve been building this for the last eight years. I founded it and leading it as CEO. We’re basically a program that turns absolute beginners into job ready developers. And 12 to 16 weeks and then help them find jobs not just in Indonesia, but also around the world as well. And so, Dan, we’ve trained today up to 50,000 people through our multiple programs, from bootcamps to corporate training programs to video based courses and things like that. And it’s been a fun and exciting journey just to see people from a stage where they’re very insecure, where they are, to see them thrive and succeed using just the power of technology. So thanks for having me.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, it’s great to have both you guys on. It’s been fun to capture both of your stories in different ways. So for our listeners here, they’re dialing in. There’s two great video stories capturing both of the journeys here. And so be sure to check that out either on the Solving the World’s Greatest Problems website or faith driven investor websites. But Keren, I was hoping that maybe you could kind of kick us off here when we talk about solving some of the world’s greatest problems. Oftentimes we think about maybe aid and we think about charity. We think about the different ways that nonprofits step in to solve some of these problems. But I would love for you to just kind of cast the vision of like when people say a job is created. We hear that in our report here in the West. We might hear that in a jobs report varies around the world. But when a job is created, when that’s happened, can you just kind of give us kind of some of the perspective of what that does, either for a family or for a community and just the ways that that has such a ripple effect beyond just even that one individual job?

Keren Pybus Yeah, definitely. I think for us it was really about giving people sustainability and giving people security. And when you’re working in an environment where there’s a huge amount of informal employment and lots of opportunities for informal employment, it doesn’t give us stability. And that’s really what creating these jobs is doing, not just for the individual but also for their family. And quite often they can be the breadwinner or maybe 1 or 2 breadwinners in the family, which means that they can provide a really basic level. They’re providing food, they’re providing housing, they’re providing amenities, they’re providing a lifestyle. There’s even beyond just those basics for those people. But it means that they can rely on it. They can save for their futures. They can you know, in Africa, saving for your funeral fund is a really big, huge deal. And at the same time, they can have support and things that are going to enable them to live their lives in a secure way, too. So whether that’s the health insurance that comes with it or whether it’s other things like the free lunch that they get, which means that they don’t have to then feed themselves, you know, a big meal again later on because they’ve had a really big meal at lunchtime or something like that. So it’s more than just a job. It’s about creating a a way that people have security and sustainability for them and for their family.

Richard Cunningham Let’s talk about that a little bit more. When you talk about the family work, what does that look like? Because I love where you’re going with this, because, you know, when we talk about solving the world’s greatest problems, the website, we talk about 30 of the problems, we talk about some of the different ones, and we talk about fracturing families. We talk about health care, we talk about anxiety. We talk about hunger, we talk about homelessness. We talk about all these different things. And I think that you’re taking us some places, but specifically with the family. Can you talk about the confidence or the ways that the family is able to thrive when you have that consistency of employment?

Keren Pybus Yeah, in a lot of developing countries and culturally. So a family stays together, so you will have generations of family living together. It’s not always true. We’ve got people that are in our factories that are in their 20s living on their own. So it doesn’t necessarily mean that, but sometimes they’ll also travel in and they’ll have families living in villages elsewhere. And so you’re not just providing for your own disposable income, you’re providing for a network of people that are reliant on you. Now, we’re very fortunate in Ghana that education is free up to the age of 18, so that’s not necessarily a factor. But that’s not true in many, many countries where people are having to pay for education. So you’re paying for that next generation that you may be paying for a younger sibling to go through university, for example, to create opportunities for that person for the future. You may be supporting health care with one of your older relatives that maybe would have just necessarily died younger for no reason at all if they hadn’t been able to access that health care that you are able to do. You’re providing also in a lot of situations, people to be able to stand on their own if they’re in a really bad situation. Domestic abuse, adultery, anything like that, which means somebody needs to be able to go out on their own. They can do that. They can support themselves being able to they can remove themselves from a dangerous situation because they’ve got the security of that job and the security of not just the job. And I think what’s really important within this and. Maybe we’ll come onto this later. It is not about just a job. It’s about that job being worthwhile, sustainable, safe, and a place that they can have a family within that job environment as well as their family that’s outside of that. So it takes away a lot of that. What if what can I do? That kind of thing? And it creates people honestly. We’ve noticed a real shift into from short term thinking into long term thinking. They’re not just thinking about what’s going to happen the next day. What do I need to spend my money on for the next day? They’re thinking about what can I do for the future? How can I change my living accommodation? How can I provide for my sibling to do this or whatever? And because they’ve got the security of longevity.

Richard Cunningham Keren That’s incredible context and setting the stage, we’re going to come back to you in a number of points you just unpacked. But let’s go over to Ron real quickly and kind of hear some of the initial context as well. And your camp, Ron, because for lack of better terms, you’ve created a coding school that takes individuals and gives them the ability to access so many various different types of work across Asia. And so we’d love to hear kind of some of this from your perspective and activate.

Ronald Ishak So I think like what comes to mind to me is thinking about the minimum wage in Indonesia. You know, in US dollar terms, like a month salary here in Indonesia is equivalent to about $400, and that’s the formal one, right? And then so there’s a lot more informal people taking jobs like, you know, selling things on the street and things like that. It might be a lot, lot less motorcycle delivery drivers perhaps. And so when we think about what we can unlock by, you know, teaching people how to code, it’s really unlocking not just, you know, to go beyond the minimum wage of what’s possible, but also being able to cross political boundaries, people to be able to work somewhere, you know, Singapore to Australia, where the minimum wage is, you know, significantly higher, the pay is significantly better. And then on top of that, as a software developer, they can just do so much more to the point that, you know, when those opportunities are unlocked, you know, somebody can suddenly, you know, support their entire family and just do incredible, incredible things.

Richard Cunningham So talk a little bit about that, Ron, because I think here’s one of the things that we think about. We think sometimes we create a job and it’s like a static thing and we’ve created it and like we’ve added to the count and. All right, good. Well, let’s go on to be creating the next one. But yet we live in this inflationary environment. We live in these places where the costs continue to go up, where we figure out some of these different things that are happening. And even in your business, when you talk about coding and teaching coding, that’s always changing. You’re always having to upgrade, you’re always having to change. I would imagine, you know, artificial intelligence, machine learning that’s changed and pushed you guys to figure out, okay, how does that change for us? So how has something like that forced you guys to continually be upskilling and innovating?

Ronald Ishak I think A.I. has really changed my business quite a lot. You know, it’s kind of like giving somebody a calculator, right? You know, it increases the productivity significantly. And then so we’ve had to upgrade our programs to help people sort of adapt to all these new tools for us to produce more output in just much shorter periods of time. But I think one of the challenges being a school is kind of like just like giving somebody a calculator. You want them to learn the math first before they just use, you know, just the buttons and press the equals and then have the results fit out. And so, you know, those might be some of the initial challenges. But I think like, you know, once it’s enabled people to just be significantly more productive, like ten x more productive, I think it’s just amazing what it unlocks.

Richard Cunningham And tosses out openly to both of you guys. We often talk about entrepreneurs that things have changed and for entrepreneurs that I guess we’d put it this way the hero of the problems of the world years ago often was like the celebrity cause it was the big concert, it was big business, it was aid, it was all of that. And now, as we’ve been talking about, like, it’s changed and people are noticing job creation, they’re noticing economics, they’re noticing the important sustainability. How have you guys seen that not just being noticed by the church, but just maybe other like local city governments, municipalities? How are you seeing opportunities to partner just with the broader ecosystem of investors, NGOs? How are you seeing some of this kind of come into play where people are saying, man, you’re solving a problem and that we have a shared vision of making sure that there’s growth in that? I mean, because here in Texas, I mean, people are recruiting businesses left and right. We are trying to just harness economic development left and right. How are you guys seeing that in your context? How are you seeing other people value the job creation potential of entrepreneurs?

Keren Pybus I think the biggest change for me is actually being with the big donor agencies. So where a lot of US aid or the Foreign Commonwealth Development Office or Jay-Z or Solidaridad, those people’s money went into pure aid. And there’s still some very, very important elements of that part of it. They have shifted huge budgets into trade facilitation, which in turn creates jobs. Because you’re creating manufacturing in different places. And it’s not just about creating market linkages. It’s about funding to create capacity building, create technical skills, create career path, create opportunities for locals. So for us, you know, we’re trying to create a textile industry in Ghana that, you know, really has a huge, deep roots in a lot of very traditional manufacturing but doesn’t have the experience of doing it to international standards or international compliance standards. We have to bring in a lot of expats to do a lot of those things, to be in with a lot of skills training to be able to pass on that knowledge. One of the big things with the donor agencies is how do we pass that skills to the locals so that it doesn’t become reliant on an expat type of business. But actually you’re upskilling the locals. So I’d say the donor agencies have really changed their mindset around that, which means that there’s a lot more money available to get grants and things to be able to kick start some of these programs or to be able to work with programs and work with investors as well. So a lot of it’s also then linked to how are investors going to work with it. So there’s a lot of match funding available to. So if you got an investor that’s going to work alongside you, then the donor agency will match that funding, which makes it really attractive for an investor as well because they’re getting a great deal for that money. So I think the donor agencies definitely wrong.

Richard Cunningham What would you say to that?

Ronald Ishak You know, I think for me, like looking back in the last few years, you know, I think one of the big things to sort of happened was the pandemic. But one of the things that come out of that for us is actually building this thing called the Association of Digital Talents Training of Indonesia. And so this is a collaboration effort between me and my competitors, but then sort of working for the greater good, working closer to the government. We now have a channel to work with together with them, sort of see why we need more talent in the marketplace that knows how to use technology. And also thinking that, you know, ever since the pandemic, sort of the acceleration of a lot of these traditional companies suddenly coming to become digital, you know, the need of talent for digital in Indonesia has spiked quite a lot. And then so now, you know, the government is more receptive to sort of like, okay, you know, let’s start to build standards so that we can scale this faster. Let’s create some protections here and there. So I think that has sort of been this shift that I see in the last few years for us.

Richard Cunningham Ron, I wanted to push into something you said there. When you’re talking about change, you’re making change. You just said that you weren’t going about it on your own, but you were linking arms with even some of your competitors. How would that change the dynamic? How has the conversation changed within that? There’s something unique there that oftentimes competition is a funny word, especially in the church. What are you learning through that process?

Ronald Ishak You know, one of the most unique parts about this association is sort of how it sort of came together as well. You know, I remember in the middle of the pandemic, you know, everybody was stressed out. My competitors were stressed out. And we actually got in a Zoom call together and we ended up praying together, funny enough, and sort of that relationship of just, you know, instead of seeing each other as competitors, sort of as like, hey, we got to survive this together so that we can come out of this, you know, we’ll be stronger together. It really started out of that. And then so that relationship was built out, you know, over the next 2 to 3 years. We only set up the association this year, sort of putting all of the competitors together, working for a greater good. I think that’s the beauty of working in education. It’s not trying to kill each other. It’s not trying to like, you know, winner takes all type of game. But then with education, you know, it’s kind of like we can help enlarge the pie. We can create more opportunities. So it’s been cool to sort of see that roll out, especially because I’ve been in the field of like, you know, building startups, trying to kill each other and things like that. But then in education, it’s just like, Hey, we’re here, you know, for the greater good type thing. And so it’s a cool collaboration. I think it’s something cool to observe.

Keren Pybus I would add to that too, because I think you’re absolutely right. We work with multiple different factories across Ghana and trying to bring all of their different skills, and they are technically all competitors. But for a buyer coming into the country, they don’t want to come into the country and buy from one factory. They want to be able to come in and make the trip worthwhile. They want to be able to buy from multiple factories. So if those factories can work together in terms of finding their own unique selling points, what is the thing that makes them specific? It might be a type of machinery they’ve got. It might be a type of product they’re making. It might be a particular type of market that they’re serving. They can all then layer together and work together with things. Then you create something that is more attractive from a trade perspective as well, and you’re not working against each other. You’re putting your energies into working together. So I think there’s huge value in as Christians leading that and being people that don’t put the competition factor first is something that sometimes does make us different within a marketplace as well.

Richard Cunningham A tide that raises all boats, if you will need to hear you both riff on that. All right. Well, hey, I want to get you almost personal in this aspect of it. Keren, maybe you at the job creation, Ron, you with almost the job upskilling. Can you think about a specific story or stories of some lives that you’ve seen, people that you’ve been fortunate enough to employ or maybe Ron, you’ve seen come through your program and just kind of the effects and this the transformation that you’ve witnessed take place in a particular live or lives. Keren, I’ll start with you.

Keren Pybus Yeah, sure. If you watch the video of Africa about Africa, you’ll see a girl who Florence, who’s profiled on there and Florence came to us as an operator not hugely long out of school, and we saw a skill set in her in terms of her ability to think outside the box, her ability to embrace technology. And we put a lot of effort and work into creating different skill sets with her. So first, full motor skills on different machinery, teaching her all the basics of sewing and moving her through the kind of ranks, putting us into some external training around pattern creation. And she is now the assistant person manager in the factory, and she’s gone from, in her family kind of being somebody that is part of that family environment to being one of the major breadwinners in that family, ensuring that her grandmother could get the health care that she needed. And so seeing individuals like that moving through is just really exciting. A warehouse manager came same, similar saying Raphael came through the ranks, really try some different things and we’re just able to hone those skills and and I think they then act as role models to others in the factory because yeah we need to bring in a lot of expert expertise and everything else. But sometimes we as expats can be almost out of reach for the locals. They can’t identify with how they can get there, how they can develop that skill set. And especially when you’re trying to teach not just a technical thing, you’re trying to teach people to think outside the box. You’re trying to get them to think horizontally and vertically and problem solving. You’re trying to, you know, look at different attitudes to work towards work and those kind of things. You’re trying to teach all of those things, not just the if you sit at this machine and press this button, it’s going to do this type thing. And so by seeing other Ghanaians that have moved through the factory and move through the industry into other things and to other roles and progress and seen how their lifestyle changes as an impact or how they then steward the resources that God has given them. It inspires other people and inspires others to look at it and to take that job and think, this isn’t just about coming in and working your 8 to 5 shift. This is actually about something that could be more than this and creating something for themselves as well as their family.

Richard Cunningham What would you like to happen on that?

Ronald Ishak I think, you know, when I think about the stories that we there’s so many I think the one that I always come back to is this guy. You know, whether you’re one of our alumni who has sort of joined our program during the pandemic, in the video there, a whole section of it in there where they get to interview him. But it’s just a cool story to sort of see somebody from a motorcycle delivery driver that had dropped out of school, couldn’t afford to pay for his university degrees, sort of join Activate, took up our income share agreement program where he didn’t have to pay anything now, but then he would pay later after he would get a job from the Activate program. Sort of just see that transformation and that just sort of even wanting to see it all the way till the day where he sort of jump from one job to another job and just seeing his career progress, it’s always like exciting, you know, to sort of just give somebody the tools to build and then sort of see what they can build from that. And I think what’s really cool as well is also seeing him, you know, volunteering to be able to teach some of the Activate classes as well, you know, sometimes as a guest lecturer and things like that. I think it’s just heartwarming to sort of see once you sort of help somebody overcome that deep insecurity or that one thing and then the amount of gratitude that they have afterwards, I think it’s just amazing.

Richard Cunningham Great thoughts. Very grateful for the work that both of you guys are doing. We often say that business has the opportunity to create redemption or to create brokenness. We can run businesses in ways that can further some of the very problems that we’re trying to prevent. Or we can step into those dark spots and be light and that can be that redemptive tool. So one of the things that we do with solving the world’s greatest problems is try to make the complex accessible to try to help people take that first step. And so I would love for you guys as we close here to give just kind of a word of advice. If you’ve got an investor or an entrepreneur that’s listening to this for the first time listening to this and they’re hearing for the first time in some ways that jobs can be some of the upstream solutions to some of the world’s greatest problems. Maybe in the past, everything that they thought about, they’ve been thinking about the giving pocket and the giving side of things. And they’re starting to see that really all comes from one pocket, whether it’s giving or it’s investing, it’s all the resources that we’ve been entrusted. So they’re coming to that place and they’re throwing their hands up saying, I want to know more. I want you guys to speak. Maybe there’s an article, maybe there’s a. Maybe there’s a moment, maybe there’s scripture, something on each of your journeys that really kind of is the moment where the lightbulb turned on for you and you realized, wow, this has an opportunity for this is is just as much ministry and impact as some of the traditional things in the traditional viewpoints. So for listeners out there, where should they start? What’s a good place for them? What’s a good article or something to go through? Keren. I’ll turn to you first. What would you encourage people to do to take their step to explore further?

Keren Pybus Well, that’s quite a big question. I think for me, right at the beginning, I think where your passion and your skills meet is often where your calling is. And I think just because you’re really passionate about something doesn’t mean you have to necessarily give up on it. So if there’s an industry that you’re passionate about, you’ve got skills in that industry. Embracing and seeing what you can do in that industry is really important. My kind of big changing moment, I guess, was reading the John Ortberg book, If you want to walk on the water, you’ve got to get out of the boat. And just knowing that actually you’re never going to solve it or you’re going to get out of that boat and there’s going to be moments where you’re sinking and moments when you don’t know what you’re doing, but fixing your eyes on Jesus and just keeping that kind of like one thing has been really good. I think a learning for us, particularly when you’re thinking about job creation, is making sure that within there your recruitment policies and the process for bringing people on board is really thorough and robust. You don’t have to kind of shy away from that just because you’re trying to give all these jobs to people. You know, we’ve got people queuing up outside the factory every day looking for work. I can’t give a job to everybody and solve all of the world’s joblessness. And so it’s about getting the right people, praying through that, but also creating what are the right tests. Interview stage. How do you test for attitude, for behavior as much as technical skills? How do you give people that proper training that gives them the chance to swim at the beginning and not just sink because you bring somebody in the new pulse so much things on and that they can’t actually cope with it. How do you hold people’s hands through that? How do you give them the life skills training that goes along the side, the jobs training as well, so that, you know, most of the people that we’ve employed have never had a formal job in their life before. So even just the concept of turning up to work on time every day at the same time every day is a completely alien concept. And so explaining the why for a lot of these things, as well as the what becomes really important and for investors. You know, we had a moment, I guess we went on the marketplace very early on in our kind of FDI journey. And we have an incredible investor, Jeff, who you will see on our video. I’ll name him because he’s on the video. So you’ll see him anyway, who saw at the beginning of vision for this and saw also that you’ve got to go through a training cycle when you’re creating jobs and you’re not creating income while you’re training. And so having money to pay those salaries and be able to support those people and create that whilst maybe they’re not creating value for your organization because you’re in a training environment, but you need to do that is where investment becomes really important because having that cash in to be able to do that and then to be able to support those people through that training environment as you then are able to then turn that their work and their things into output for the business later on becomes this really important marriage between what the investors can do and what the entrepreneurs can do. So I’d say go for it. Find your passion for your skills, putting together, pray about it and jump out of the boat.

Richard Cunningham Richard We should have just started in in the podcast right there. We should just hand the mic to Keren. Gotten out of the way. I mean, that’s. Aaron. That’s going to be tough to top, man, but that was really good.

Ronald Ishak That was really good. I think, you know, for me, thinking back, like the last, gosh, eight years, I think that the journey of Building Activate came with a lot of insecurities. You know, it came with a lot of doubt for me. But I remember somebody telling me, you know, God doesn’t call the qualified, but he qualifies the call. And I think like that really put it into perspective for me to remember what I need to lean on. But this time, where when there’s things that I can’t do, I need to pray about it. And sort of just seeking God in every moment of building something and sort of just, you know, looking back now, it’s just being a maze of what, you know, putting and leading on God was able to do. And so I think, you know, there’s listeners out there sort of thinking about, you know, I want to build something, know I want to create more jobs in the marketplace. And I believe that if God has planted that in your heart and that’s something that you step out in faith to do, that I really do believe that God can use that for his kingdom and for his glory.

Richard Cunningham Man Great words from both you guys. So grateful for the wisdom. I love what you’re talking about. Keren, is this as you talk about this idea that you can’t give a job to everyone, and in those moments you have your heart tugging your head, kind of wrestling through that. There’s still sequence, there’s a process. There’s still best practice. This is to learn from love the perspective. What you’re talking about, Ron, is we’re always learning. We’re always learning to upskill. We’re always learning to that. And even as much like what you hit on there at the end as independent and as driven as we are, that we really at our core are designed to be dependent. And that is a weird, weird thing for an entrepreneur to face and wrestle with daily. So grateful for Wisdom listeners that you are dialing into this. Here’s my encouragement. You might be feeling this thought of man. I want to explore this more, but I don’t know where to go. I don’t know where to start. There’s some great resources. John Edwards book. I love the thought of just kind of getting out of the boat, a way to get out of the boat. And way to step into this is to have a conversation with other like minded entrepreneurs or other like minded investors. And so Richard, myself and others on the team of all been a part of leading different faith driven entrepreneur and faith through an investor groups they meet either in person or online. But if you’re an investor and you really wrestling with this idea and thinking, man, God, give me some capital or family, some capital to entrust to invest in the businesses that are upstream of this or to give to some of those organizations that are helping facilitate some of the job creation, whatever that might look like. My encouragement would be is to check out the Solving the World’s Greatest Problems website, but then check out one of these faith driven investor groups. There are some just robust conversations that are taking place there. And as Richard can attest to, there’s a lot of like minded investors that are meeting each other for the first time, realizing that that passion that God has placed in you, there are others that share that passion. And when you connect with them, man, it changes everything. Richard, any closing thoughts for us as we come to a wrap? And I think the thing I would say is Ron, Keren, just knowing some of your stories and your journeys, you’re both backed by faith driven investors. And I can just imagine maybe just a quick word on that. As a faith driven entrepreneur building something, stepping out of the boat, what an encouragement is to have like minded values on the cap table, am I right?

Keren Pybus 100%. It’s been an absolute privilege and just a faith building thing when when people just cool you up off the back of a podcast or a back of a video and go, I love what you’re doing and I feel that goes calling me to work with you and you just like, Wow, this is just incredible for people like on the opposite side of the world that maybe I’ve never even visited the country you’re working in to want to go on that journey. And so I’m really grateful for anyone that’s invested in ethical apparel, Africa or anybody that wants to in the future as well. And it has been incredible witness to, you know, we don’t employ all Christians. And so for the team to see the amount of Christian investors that we have on as well has been also a really amazing witness as well. And for those that have managed to come and visit and see what you do. So yeah, get on the train. It’s a great one to be on.

Ronald Ishak Absolutely. I think like I remember the times, you know, when things are difficult and when you get your investors to pray together with you, I think it’s just so empowering. So, yeah, I’m just so grateful for that.

Richard Cunningham Some Brownie Shack activate out of Jakarta, Indonesia. Keren Pybus of Ethical Apparel, Africa and Ghana. What a fun episode. What a joy to have you both on for a special faith. You’re an entrepreneur and faith driven investor kind of release episode looking at solving the world’s greatest problems. For Justin Foreman, I’m Richard Cunningham. Thank you so much for joining us. Friends. We will catch you next time.

Narrator We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see your listeners come in for more than 100 countries Faith driven investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers, the questions you have and find great community as they do so there’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter and faith driven investing Dawg. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive Producer Justin Foreman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Drags Audio and Editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.