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Collin Timms is the Founder and Chairman of Guardian Bank in Bengaluru, India. In a city and country where loan sharks prey on people every day, Guardian Bank is a bright spot. 

While banking is a largely impersonal system set up to avoid risk by tying creditworthiness to capital instead of character, Collin and his team take a different approach. 

Inspired by faith that sees the infinite worth of each person, Guardian Bank provides a more humane view to the money lending process that provides hope for everyday households and commercial customers.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Collin Timms: That morning, I put on my clothes and I, I reached out into the cupboard and I thought of a wad of notes. It was a good bundle. It was ten thousand rupees. And I put it into my pocket and I left home and I said a small prayer and I said, God, let me start every day like this with a lot of money in my pocket and good intentions in my heart.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. It’s awesome to have you all back, William, my co-host. How are you?

William Norvell: It’s good to be here. It’s a great day to talk about investing, you know?

Henry Kaestner: Well, actually, every day is a great day to talk about investing. Today, though, is not only that, it’s a great day to talk about investing and take a little bit of a side trip to India, which is one of my favorite countries. If you haven’t been, you need to go. This is going to sound too pejorative. It’s much better than this. But I call it an assault on the senses. But it’s just an overwhelming to the senses. It’s just the sights in the smells and it’s the colors. I mean, just the colors in India are just amazing. So today we’re in Bengaluru, which a lot of people also know is Bangalore, of course. And we’re talking to Colin Temes from Gardian Bank. And this is one of those times for you as a listener to go and spend some time in the show notes because there are some links to some videos that will do a better job than William and I will about talking about the impact of Colin and Gardian Bank and what it’s made on our lives. You’ll be able to be brought into it through this great partnership we have with Faith EMCO and Faith in CO is itself an initiative out of Seattle Pacific. And this is actually really good time for us to plug the small group, the FDE group that we have. The FDE group is a collaboration that we’ve done with the Faith and initiative in Seattle Pacific and then also with JD Grear. We have an eight week series where we bring together cohorts of entrepreneurs all around the world. We have three hundred of them going through it right now, I think in the next one. Our plan is I think in the fall we have a thousand faith driven entrepreneurs going through these groups. And what you do is you have this three minute story at the beginning and then you have teaching from JD Greer for about 15 minutes. And then there’s a group facilitation. It’s really a cool thing because you get to participate in it with other entrepreneurs at your stage all around the world. And so it’s a lot of fun. So that’s Seattle Pacific. That’s a plug for them. And then also for the FDE group, which you’ll find both of those on our website. But before any more time goes by. Colin Timms, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the program.

Collin Timms: My pleasure to be here and talk to you, Henry.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you. And as we get started, we do this, of course, with every guest we have. We’d love for you to give us a flyover of who you are. Who are you, where do you come from? What are the steps in your professional life that have gotten you here? But but we have faith into that, too. When did faith become a part of your work?

Collin Timms: Well, I’m basically an Indian. I have this strange name calling Daems because and what they call an Anglo-Indian, you know, some God knows how many generations ago there was some ancestor of mine who came out of the United Kingdom. And we are the legacy of the one hundred years of British rule in India, a very, very small community of people. So I grew up in a small town about 60 kilometers away from Bombay and basically lived most of my early life in a lower middle class family with dreams of doing well, doing business and becoming a rich man one day. And many of my ambitions met with success and many of my dreams came true. And that’s when I realized that there has to be more to life than just making money, because making money ended up becoming much too easy. And there was a internalization of thought and introspection for a few years. And then I felt that in the rediscovering of the practical part of the Christian faith, of service, of helping people is where the greatest satisfaction, the deep satisfaction and wellbeing for me. And that’s the part I was set on roughly about maybe about twenty five years ago. And I’ve been on that path ever since.

Henry Kaestner: So we was going to get more into the banking part later. But I do want to ask one thing, because some number of people are going to be thinking India banking. Is this microfinance? Can you give us just a quick description of what Gardian Bank does? And then I want to kind of get back into how you get into that a little bit more, because I know there’s some great stories on that. But Gardian Bank, would you consider yourselves in microfinance or are you somewhere in the middle? Is it a more traditional banking? Just tell us what Cardium Bank is real quick, please.

Collin Timms: So it’s important to understand the financial services landscape of India. There are various kinds of banks in India. They’re government owned banks, which we call the PSU banks, public sector unit banks. They are the large bank like State Bank of India and so on. Then there are commercial banks with a privately owned private commercial banks like they see the product in the US and so on. And then they would be foreign banks will set up shop in India for many, many years, like Citibank and Standard Chartered, ANZ within days and so on. And then there are regional banks that are set up in the cooperative structure. Urban cooperative banks and regional cooperative banks, Gardian Bank is something that I founded about 22 years ago, and at that time, the way I set up a bank with the least amount of entry point capital was a co-operative bank. And so I went in for that kind of a structure. So we are an urban co-operative bank, which means that we can do all banking activities, unlike nonbanking finance companies. Microfinance is largely done in India by one banking finance companies, which are restricted to only giving out loans, raising capital through borrowings and not through public deposits. But there is a co-operative bank and take public deposits and give out that money in various ways, including microfinance. So we do a wide spectrum of financial services, but we are also restricted in many ways because of our cooperative structure. And that is one of the negative points of being a co-operative bank the way we are. But right now, we’re in the process of transitioning from a co-operative bank into commercial small finance bank. So the new banking entity that has been created in India to look at the bottom of the pyramid financing and what we are called a priority sector financing in India, and those are all small finance banks, but they are in the company structure legally. They are designed to be companies, unlike what we are right now, cooperatives, and they can operate nationally and without the restrictions that we are faced with right now.

Henry Kaestner: So I’ve long been taken with microfinance. I used to serve on the board of a great ministry called Hope International that engages in that. But one of the things that I was impressed with when I went and spent some time with India was that it didn’t seem that there are many institutions that could help small companies that were hiring people. Microfinance did some great things in terms of financial poverty alleviation and spiritual poverty alleviation, and I’ve continued to be drawn to that. But again, it didn’t seem that there’s much set up. If I had a bike shop and I wanted to expand to the next town and I wanted to hire five or 10 workers. Is that something that you all can do? A guardian?

Collin Timms: Yes. To microfinance is the main objective is to draw people out of poverty. I do have a foundation for the Bridge Foundation, which has been involved in microfinance for over 30 years now. So we understand microfinance very, very well, microfinance, the Bridge Foundation and most microfinance organizations around the world. Their main objective is to impact poverty. Microfinance is a means used to impact poverty, and the microfinance is directed to micro enterprises that somebody started could be in a village or a small village, petty shop or a basket of things that she buys from the market and says door to door. The idea is to empower people to lift themselves out of poverty with a little bit of financial support from the institution and a lot of entrepreneurial zeal and hard work from the individuals themselves. Now, it is quite different from banking. What we do is, is a wide spectrum of banking, which may include microfinance. We do have a microfinance program, but we also do other forms of other financial services for the individual. So it would handhold the individual right from getting a loan of maybe one hundred dollars right up to getting a loan of a million dollars. The entire spectrum can be offered by an institution like Gardian Bank.

Henry Kaestner: So, Colin, tell us about the story, the origin story of guarding back how to get started. What drew you to it?

Collin Timms: Well, like I was saying, I reached a point in my life where I began to introspect and look inwards and try to find that level of satisfaction and peace that I just could not find in acquiring companies and building businesses and chasing dreams and opportunities. And I was skilled at business, and that’s what I understood. I knew and I didn’t know how to serve. What should I do? I knew I needed to do something with this. I knew I felt very deeply that God blessed me with a lot of good fortune, a lot of blessings of health and happy family and everything. And I needed to give back and I wasn’t sure how. And then I got a call from my local pastor and he said that I know you’re a businessman and I have this guy who was talking about doing a small business and maybe you can talk to him and maybe you can help him out. He wants to borrow some money from me. I don’t have any money to give him, but maybe you find it worthwhile to help him out, to lend him some money. So I told him, I’ll come to your office if you call him to the office at a certain time, and I’ll come then and have a word with him. And that morning I put on my clothes and I. I reached out into the. But then I thought of a lot of notes. It was a good panel, it was ten thousand rupees and I put it into my pocket and I left home and I said a small prayer and I said, God, let me start every day like this with a lot of money in my pocket and good intentions in my heart. And my prayer has been answered. I start every day like that. It’s never changed. And that’s where it started from and from. That led to trying to seek opportunities to use this skill that God had bestowed on me, of understanding businesses very quickly, looking for opportunities and developing them. And somewhere along the way, the opportunity arose to start a bank. I’m no banker. I’m an engineer by profession. I’m not even a financial expert of any kind. But I read about banking. I learned whatever there is to learn about banking. And I managed to get two thousand six hundred people to put small amounts of money together and created own bank. Sometimes people tell me that it is a miracle that it’s happened and I completely agree with them. I look back and I wonder how the hell did I do it myself, you know? So that’s how it happened. Along the way, it has been bordering on obsession with me, completely focused on it. Even now I go to the bank every day, do I don’t have to do so, but it’s going and be still functioning. The bank has to operate and I still feel I have to be that not much to do with Seppo. Encourage the staff and make them feel that, you know, if you are going to face this, I’ll be the first one to face it. But that’s how it is. That’s been the journey and the motivation for me. I’m not a great churchgoer. I don’t go to church that much. I don’t give sermons and I don’t sing. I can’t sing to save my life. I don’t I don’t have any other way of glorifying was serving God. All I know is to go and do my work and Zarian back. And I believe that’s the way I got Amen.

William Norvell: It sounds like you’re doing a good job at it, which is fantastic. And one of the things I would love to dig into is the early days of Christianity and moneylending, because, you know, I’ve got a little history that’s actually worked for a Sharia compliant private equity firm for a few years. And, you know, we had all kinds of intricate rules where we weren’t allowed to use gold and metal in some contracts because they’re used as of money. And as you know, Sharia compliant debt is a very intricate structure. I would imagine you’ve probably seen more of it than I have, but you know how to get around it, because they had a pretty good sense that, you know, the Bible actually had some negative things to say about debt and lending. And I think a lot of people probably listening here maybe have thought those things before of, wow, is the Bible telling us not to engage in that? Should I get a home loan? Should I not? I mean, those are specific questions, but I’d love to have you take us to. What do you think the Bible says? What do you think early Christianity had to do with lending and money and sort of the banking practices as we see them today?

Collin Timms: So that’s a disclaimer. I’m no theologian and I’m no expert on Christianity and the theology.

William Norvell: Well, you’re in good company now. None of us are great theologians either.

Collin Timms: So I read a paper sometime back that talked about the concept of banking, which is the concept of money lending. And what I gathered from that is that the early Christians were basically people who lived in fear. And they were in most of the time that the years and they lived in very close knit communities. And before that, the concept of money lending has always been there. As long as there’s been a rich man and a poor man, there’s been a concept of money lending. But what the early Christians introduced was the whole concept of community money. And that’s what banking is largely, you know, no banker sits around with. It’s not his money. He’s lending out. He’s lending the money of the community. So the community contributes money through savings, through deposits, and that money is then lent out to people. This is a concept that I would like to believe was invented by the questions that people contributed their resources together and then lent it out to those in need and those in need who took those resources that did not get it as a gift or a donation. They were obliged to pay it back and pay it back with interest. And that’s how the corpus was protected and the purpose continued to grow. And I believe that that is the earliest form of banking that I can think of.

William Norvell: Well, that’s fascinating. I had never heard that before, and as you run, Gardian, how do you feel? You know, obviously, you know, I assume truth and integrity and things like that are there. But is there any other ways in which your faith sort of influence, how you try to think about lending practices, how you try to think about interest rates? I don’t know what else there could be, but just are there any other ways that you feel your faith influences how you run the bank and the actual practices that go on there?

Collin Timms: I think the most I get asked this a lot, what is an institution, how do you define an institution? And largely institutions are defined by their values and what defines us. Then we call ourselves Christians use a set of values that we choose to live our lives by. I don’t believe it is the big Krosby that Amen X or the the caller. There’d be a way around that makes or the kind of preaching and the words that we speak. But it’s the deeds, it’s what we do and the values by which we do our daily work in whatever it is that we do is what defines us as Christians. If we want to be called followers of Christ, if we want to be called Christ, like in whatever it is that we do, we need to do it that way. And I think in banking, the sweet spot for applying those values, I have found in to sum it up in one word, empathy. You know, banking can become very, very impersonal, but banking can become very low touch, high tech and distant and cold because you’ll find many bankers tell you that you can get too close to the borrower you can’t get because at some point you’ve got to go and recover the money from him. You have to say no to him. Sometimes you have to deny him some services or some facilities. So it’s very difficult to do that when you’re close to somebody. And what is and what is lost out of that is the aspect of empathy. So this is something that I think we consciously want to correct in Gardendale. It’s not that we sanction every loan that comes across the loan officers desk. There is many times that he has to deny the person surveys say, or even fire a subordinate. But you do everything with a degree of empathy. You do it with that feeling. And you know that in many ways is, I think, the distinctive factor that is there. And once you bring this whole element of empathy and once you feel the way that other person feels, it is very difficult to do all the negative things that unfortunately sometimes happen in banking, which is like a mis selling or overselling that and pushing people into debt, and it can be avoided and so on, because you know that this is going to come back to bite you sooner or later and it is against your core values. So I think empathy is the strongest factor that drives us.

William Norvell: That’s good. That’s good. I think that’s a great way. And especially with banking. Right, exactly. What you just talked about, how so many people, if you can’t get into their shoes with empathy and understand what’s best for them, they can go wrong. Right. And there’s no shortage of headlines of banks not serving their customers well and ending up in fraud and in the wrong places. So I love that. And I’m glad you were able to talk through that. And that leads me to think about could you tell us about your average customer? Who is it that you’re serving mostly with Guardian Bank? And how do you think about that empathy? How do you think about serving them well and what’s best for them?

Collin Timms: Our average customer would be, you know, in the Indian demographic you have if you draw economic pyramid, the economic profile of the population would form a pyramid with the largest portion being at the bottom, being the poorest people living on less than five dollars or ten dollars a month. And then there are different layers of that pyramid going up to the very top, the people living in billion dollar homes you may have read about. So India has it all. You know, we have the entire economic pyramid and it is a very, very flat, which means the bottom is very large. We have almost 200 or 300 million people that we got in banks of the layer of the economic pyramid that is slightly above the bottom most. We are, unfortunately, as a bank we are unable to. So those who had abject poverty and need without a job, homeless people like that. But we serve the lower middle class profile and that can be defined as people with a monthly income of anything between maybe three hundred dollars to about maybe a thousand dollars a month, between three hundred dollars to a thousand dollars a month combined family income, maybe two people earning that that kind of money. So that would be the profile of our client base. And they would be made up of schoolteachers, factory workers, you know, taxi drivers, people who made servants, janitors, shop assistants, all that the entire blue collar working community that we would be serving that is largely guarding bank serves at present. We do have about in terms of numbers, about ten, fifteen percent for the wealthy, a set of people. And we serve their needs, too. But we believe our calling is in serving this layer of the demographic.

William Norvell: That’s great. And you said three hundred dollars. A thousand dollars of. And let you know we have a primarily US based audience, we do have some international audiences. I mean, could you let us into a layer deeper that maybe don’t understand the Indian market quite as much? Are you helping them sort of checking and savings accounts? Are they getting loans on homes, loans to businesses that Henry talks about? What services are you typically offering your average customer?

Collin Timms: First of all, to have a savings account and to be able to generate some savings? We call it in our direct deposit account. We encourage them to save to put away a small amount of their income every month towards a saving food, then using that account for conducting all the other transactions that they would have to. And definitely a big need is, you know, providing them with the capital required for their house when they want to buy a housing loan, a loan for education of their children, both short term and long term loans on education and then business loans for them to recapitalize or roll small businesses into bigger ones. Those are very much what we do, create supplementary income by maybe adding an extra room to the house and renting that room out and finding supplementing them for what they do. We encourage them to create supplementary income to, in addition to the existing income, also loans to buy vehicles buying a two wheeler scooter that goes for the motorcycle gets them from point A to point B faster, makes them more efficient in whatever it is that they are doing. And a lot of them also get loans to buy a car to improve the quality of life and mobility and things like that. So it’s a very wide spectrum of lending. We do a lot of work also in health care and education. That’s going to be our focus going forward. Has care lending because healthcare is a serious issue. And, you know, you’re reading about what’s happening in India right now. It is nothing but exposing in the most cruelest form possible the weakness of our healthcare infrastructure in this country. It has always been like that, but it took a 19 second wave to completely laid back. So we want to be very active in that space going forward.

Henry Kaestner: Macfarlan the majority of our listeners know how big India is and they know it’s such a large market and they may even understand a little bit about the culture. Maybe they’ve heard some things about Modi and Hindu nationalism and what that means for Christian aid workers in ministries. But can you talk just a little bit about what to look for Western European or American investor to think about coming into India can happen? I mean, what does it look like? And does any council you’ve got and here’s what I’m trying to do here. I’m trying to make this actionable of sorts. We probably have somewhere, you know, a thousand people listen as podcasts and they’re mostly accredited investors in the United States. And what I want for them to be able to do is to be inspired, encouraged by the stories we bring them. I also want them to be able to see that they can actually take steps and action and say, you know what, I’m going to get involved in India. There’s ways for me to participate. The need is there now, especially to be able to invest in businesses because so many people have a heart for India but can’t do that through Christian missionaries in ministries anymore. I’m hoping that you might be able to speak to that in response. I hope investors think about, yes, I can roll up my sleeves, I can get involved in India. It’s not insurmountable. And boy, the time to invest is now because some of the other things that I might have otherwise done with my donation capital have been removed from me.

Collin Timms: Well, there’s definitely scope to invest in a country like India simply because there is just so much to be done. You know, any field you can speak of, there is so much to be done. I’m no expert in other things, but I can tell you about banking and the Guardian Bank journey. We started out in bank 20 years ago with a very, very small capital, just thirty like. So we’re pleased with that, maybe about fifty thousand dollars or so. And today we have a net worth of six or seven million dollars. And we are on the brink of our next big leap in growth to convert ourselves from a cooperative into a small finance bank, go national with what we do and be able to offer the products and services of what we offer in the way we want to offer it in a strategic manner focused on health care and education in this country across the length and breadth of this country. Now, that is a huge, huge potential because right now we are in the urban district only of Bangalore and being able to serve maybe four or five million people in this city alone. But imagine when the canvas that we are looking at is one point three billion people across the country. The growth potential is tremendous in whatever it is that can be done. This leads to two things. One is tremendous opportunity for economic investment. That’s one way of looking at it. A great economic investment, a great save. Investment into an organization that can give you a reasonably good return over a long period of time, that can give you maybe three or four extra done in five years. In addition, a very powerful social impact, because if you choose and make the right investment into the right kind of organizations, the social impact that it can develop and deliver in terms of transformation of lives, of people that that organization touches is immense. Now, there may be many opportunities for economic return and financial return in many jurisdictions, many geographies around the world. But a combination of financial return along with social impact. Your best bet is countries like India, where there is a huge canvas to bubble here in terms of both economic growth as well as social development. So my message to your investors is to choose organizations whose institutions that are on a growth trajectory and with a viable scaling up plan and with very sound management people who have proved themselves in terms of integrity and capacity to deliver on the promises. And I don’t think you can go wrong. There are many, many examples of success stories that we can talk about.

William Norvell: Macfarlan great advice. Thanks for sharing that with our audience. So in addition to Gardian, are there other great companies that you might point some folks to to check out the research, to look into?

Collin Timms: Or there are many, many companies in the engineering space that are companies in the pharmaceutical space. They have great growth stories. You know, we got a company in India called Glenmont Pharmaceuticals started by England and said today it’s grown into a billion dollar company, started very small, and whoever invested in a friend of mine from UK was an early stage investor in it, cashed out with hundreds of millions of dollars. So, you know, there are great stories in the technology space, you name it. There are great stories. It would take a little bit of effort and handholding to find the right, because you can imagine there are many, many, many entrepreneurs and many people, many areas to invest many slots to put that check into. But you need to be patient and be vigilant about where you want to invest in the kind of place you want to invest in for those who would be interested in bankers in the next phase of its growth. And if there is any interest to anybody who is watching this, we could send information memorandum to them and they can look at it. If this space is of any interest to them, that’s great.

William Norvell: And actually, my last question before we wrap up would be along those lines. Could you maybe give a closing, I guess, please, not the right word, because that’s a little too strong. But, you know, high growth startups, equity, things like that are very exciting to people these days. Crowdfunding is taking off. Could you maybe give a closing, I guess, plea for why banking, such as what you do a guardian, is so important for the economic development of people that obviously God cares about because he made us all. But could you maybe just ERG our audience to pay a little more attention to the lending aspect of the investment landscape?

Collin Timms: I think the key factor here is sustainability. I’ve been a businessman all my life and I’ve chased the 10x return and ended up with no return. And then I have learned to be satisfied with the two and a half X return, and I know I’ll get that fixed if I put it in the right place. So sustainability over a long period of time is extremely important, especially when you are investing in a developing country like India and a developing jurisdiction. Now, there are many, many unforeseen circumstances and many factors that can interfere with your venture. Excel spreadsheet growth plans know it’s very easy to draw those things up, but it’s very difficult to foresee all legislative changes, regulatory changes, interest rate shocks, currency shocks, natural disasters. And you are seeing lockdowns and things like go with it you and completely disrupt and transform business plans and business trajectories. So it’s very important to focus on very strong and stable kind of businesses, especially in developing markets that have a long term sustainability and a long term growth. And banking happens to be one of them. Manufacturing is another one if you get it right, if you get the manufacturing right, almost every second person in India, whereas Bata shoes, you know Bato. He’s a check individual who Kamia some seventy five years ago to India and invested here, and it’s a household name. I mean, I don’t think Bato is as famous in the Czech Republic as it is in India. So, you know, people have come here and invested very, very early on and benefited a great deal, but they’ve invested in something that is long term sustainable. So my suggestion to people with capital is, you know, the higher the return and you know this, I shouldn’t be telling you this, the higher the return, the higher the risk. But there is a large number of unseen circumstances in countries like India and countries in the developing world that you have to take cognizance of. And maybe you should recalibrate your thinking to a more reasonable rate of return. And in return, you what you would get is more social impact and I think more long term sustainability.

William Norvell: That was pretty good. That was pretty good. Thank you so much for walking us through that. And I think hopefully you’ll have a lot of people more interested in the space than they were before they started this podcast as we wrap up. We love watching where God can intersect our listeners and our guests. And so the question we love to ask is, is there a place in God’s word in scripture that you might want to share with our audience that’s been particularly meaningful to you or could be something you read this morning, but a scripture verse or a story from Scripture that maybe has guided some of who you are and where you are today?

Collin Timms: Well, if there is one thing that motivates me and guides me and keeps me coming back to the plow is that this feeling that I have and it permeates my thoughts and permeates my subconscious, my dreams, I just feel I have to keep doing the best I can in whatever it is that I’m doing. And I believe that is my calling, that I have to do more and more of that. And whenever I, I get bouts of doubt in that, it comes in the form of the I look around me and still see so much of poverty and still see so much of misery, especially in these times when we’re seeing this and what’s happening in college and all of that, then God gives me some small successes and that just to get my chin up again and just to remind me that what I am expected to do is to do the best that I can do and leave the rest to him. I have more control over what will happen. And God doesn’t appear to me the way he does to people in scripture and all of that. But this is something that I keep feeling from deep within is that I have to continue to do the best that I can do.

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When we say, ‘bring your whole authentic self to work,’ what if faith is your number one identifier? Can you still bring your authentic self to work? That’s the question Sue Warnke is asking. 

Sue works for Salesforce as the Senior Director of Content Experience, and she was part of the team that started Faithforce San Francisco at Salesforce—an interfaith employee resource group. It’s one of the newest and the fastest growing Equality Groups at Salesforce with over 3200 members in over 20 regional hubs across 5 continents. 

In addition to sharing her best practices on her blog Leanership.org, today, Sue will share how Faithforce got started, how her personal faith influenced her involvement, and what it takes to start a successful Employee Resource Group.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Sue Warkne: I think the reason this has sprung up so much in Silicon Valley is Silicon Valley is such a home of diversity and equity and equality that, you know, when you say things like bring your full, authentic self to work, we are an inclusive company. We care about diversity. You then have to ask the question, well, what if faith is my primary identifier? Can I bring my full, authentic self to work? And you have to answer that our executives, our leaders in Silicon Valley have to have an answer to that.

Henry Kaestner: All right, welcome to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I’m here with my co-host, William Norvell. William, good morning.

William Norvell: It’s a good morning here, moving into the afternoon, but it’s still pretty good indeed.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, actually, yes, it is the afternoon. And, you know, our listeners don’t care what time of day it is. They really do. But they do care about our host today, Sue Warnke. Sue, welcome.

Sue Warkne: Thank you. Nice to be here.

Henry Kaestner: So this is a big deal for us because we’re going to be talking about a topic that’s near and dear to my heart. And just to set the stage a little bit. I am well, at least in my mind, a little bit semi famous for going out on the road, leaving my home here in Northern California and talking about faith and entrepreneurship and faith and investing. And and a couple of years ago, back when we could travel, I would go around and be in Atlanta, I’d be in Nashville or in Dallas. And I’d be saying, where do you think is the Center for the Faith and Work Movement in the United States? And if I was in Nashville, they’d say Atlanta. If I was in Atlanta, maybe they’d say Nashville or they’d say Dallas. If I was in Dallas, as you know, they would say Dallas. Right. Because it’s all about Dallas and Begbie. But I would say in each case, no, I will submit to you that the Center for the Faith and Work Movement in the United States is actually in Silicon Valley, where there are new or resurgent faith in the work groups at Google and Facebook, at Apple, at Intuit, at Dropbox and at Salesforce. They have something called faith force. And most people’s jaws drop. And I think it’s really an important development. And here’s why I want to tell you why I think this episode is important and then hopefully we’ll cover it again at the end. I think that this is important because this is a podcast is focused on Faith Driven Investor. And when we come to understand that corporate America and some of the what would be thought of is the largest secular corporations in America and some of the most secular cities in America have embraced the role that faith plays in their corporate cultures. That has relevance, I think, for every business everywhere. So if your business in Kenosha, Wisconsin, or Albemarle, Virginia, and you think, well, I can’t really encourage a bunch of Christians getting together and maybe praying together or folks that are from a Muslim faith getting together and celebrating Ramadan or something like that together, there is some great precedent. And as Christians and this is a podcast is focused on followers of Jesus Christ, there’s great precedent for this working well and in a respectful atmosphere, letting truth stand out in the marketplace of ideas. So for those of you who are on boards or investors, there’s an opportunity to be able to point to some of these illustrations and maybe ask if it’s appropriate the company that you are an investor in or that you sit on the board on. So today we can understand more about that through the life and the career of a really neat woman named Sue Warnke, who has been a leader at Faith for us at Salesforce, one of the most technologically advanced and progressive, at least in terms of the products and services that they provide companies in the world. Sue, thank you for being with us. One of the things we really want to be able to do before we get into this topic is understand a little bit about your background. I know a bit about it. It’s very interesting to me. And you were a little bit different than maybe some of the other guests that we’ve had on. And that is that, like me, you’re an adult convert to the Christian faith. What’s that all about?

Sue Warkne: So I grew up in Utah in a really religious environment and we were not religious. So I was sort of two things came out of that. And one way I was an outsider and the other way I was the target of evangelism. The whole town, it felt like I wanted to convert my family. So I built a big wall against faith throughout my life. And, you know, I was very anti faith, actually, and pursued other gods, I would say the gods of accomplishment and success. And that works really well, actually. And I got, you know, a great career at Salesforce. And I have a wonderful husband and I have three teenagers right now and sort of had everything. But several years ago, about six years ago, I felt a void. I really did feel that void like, well, what else is there and am I really on the right path? And I felt like I was supposed to do something more meaningful. So I ended up quitting my job and pursued a new role in leadership development, which was very meaningful, but didn’t at all fill the void. And then something very important happened, which was that I fell flat on my face in this new job. So I failed. Worse than you can really fail on a job because I had to sell some of the classes that I was teaching and I was terrible at it. I think I hit one percent of my quota, so I just wasn’t used to failing. So that was a big deal. And my son has some health problems. So, you know, I faced kind of the end of myself, the end of my ability to fix that. And luckily, obviously a very blessed way things came into my life one by one, whether it was a song or music or somebody randomly praying for me that led me to Jesus to a really surprising conversion. To Christianity about four years ago.

Henry Kaestner: Wow, so tell us a little bit more about what that was like, because you have at that point time, you have a husband, you have kids, and all of a sudden their mom is saying, actually, I think that the whole purpose of life is a bit different than we had thought. How did they receive that? How did your friends and coworkers receive that?

Sue Warkne: Yeah, I mean, it was quite a shock because I wasn’t just agnostic. I mean, I was really antireligious most of my life and kind of known for that. I was the person in college that would send articles to my friends arguing against religion. So it was really shocking to my family for sure. I mean, one day their mom becomes a born again Christian after telling them that nobody really knows the truth. It’s all good, you know, believe whatever you want. So that was difficult for a few months. You know, we had a lot of interesting conversations in my household, but my husband is wonderful and supportive and they’ve all kind of watched me go through this process and start talking about it and watched the effect that it’s had on other people, including faith force, which we’re going to get into, including just a lot of people benefiting from me telling this very surprising story. And so they’re very proud of me. They’re very supportive and proud and kind of on their own faith journeys.

Henry Kaestner: Gotcha. OK, very cool. OK, so Faith Four starts at about the same time. Yeah. I mean maybe, maybe, maybe not. But I think it from my memory, it starts about the same time that you came to face off four years ago or so. Yeah. Is that related.

Sue Warkne: Definitely. So, you know, I converted to Christianity, I was baptized and, you know, several things improved in my life. I definitely had a purpose. Relationships got healed. And very quickly, I got an offer to come back to Salesforce. And with that offer, I knew that I was coming back for a purpose. It wasn’t just to do my job, but it was really to be a person of faith in this environment and just follow whatever God wanted me to do, which was really scary. I mean, not just coming out to my family about this, but my whole work family that knew me for seven years. And so I had to figure out, well, what does it mean to be a person of faith in this environment? Can you be. And so what I did is I started to search other comments internally on our message board. Is there anybody out there talking about faith? And I found two things. One is a couple, other just very few. It started with one other Christian and we found each other and we set up a time to pray, which was just incredible because I realized in that moment I OK, I can have both. I don’t exactly know how, but I can have both. Nothing terrible happened. We prayed and it was, you know, a really good moment. And then that group turned into five people and then ten and then two hundred and then five hundred. So definitely Christians had a home at Salesforce. But that felt to me, not the whole story. It felt that God was definitely pulling people out of hiding. But the bigger story was really transforming how this company operates and how faith in general is perceived as an element of identity. So we found other faiths, Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus and a group of people proposed this new group about the same time. So, yes, we can have prayer groups, but that’s not everything. Let’s actually talk to the leadership and say, you know, is this could this be an employee resource group the same as any other employer resource group?

Henry Kaestner: So it’s all fascinating. OK, so as you go ahead and you put this together and you think about making this an employee resource group, do two things. No. One, tell us what an employee resource group is. That’s going to be a term that some people aren’t going to know what that means, what that stands for. And then also, as you formed that, what’s your hope for people that are part of the Force Employee Resource Group?

Sue Warkne: Yeah, so I came in so a couple trailblazers had already started the process, so I came in after them. But an employee resource group, it is what it says. It’s to provide resources to employees on different topics. So there’s usually most companies have a women’s group and a black employee group, an LGBTQ group. So it’s a place where you can feel safe and share resources, have community, but a lot more than that. It’s to share resources out to the rest of the company about your group. So, for example, right now with, you know, racial tension being so high, we have some of our more racial focused employee resource groups. We have a black employee resource group and a Latino group and Asian-American groups. They’re sharing resources with the rest of the company about how this is impacting them, how to talk to them, how to support them. And similarly, faith for us. We share resources out when it’s holidays, when we say this is how you can greet your employees this month for, you know, if you have Muslim employees, if you have Sikh employees, when there is a tragic attack on people of faith like Sri Lanka or Christchurch, we come together to mourn and to talk about the impact of this on employees. So it’s almost. Chaplain, like in a way that it’s a service, a group of people that know how to talk about faith effectively in the workplace and serve both the community and those who are outside of the community within the company.

William Norvell: So thank you so much. So good to see you again. Yeah. Everybody might think we know all of our guests. Sometimes we do. Sometimes we don’t. But I’ve gotten the chance to get to know, Sue and see her talk on this topic at length. And I mean, I guess I’m just inspired by some of the way, you know, you went really and have to go really deep on this is not a side project or a group you put together, you know, on the edge. Right. I mean, you’ve flooded it in amazing ways. And the scale is something that I’m just consistently just surprised by. I mean, when we talk about equality groups, Salesforce, as you might know the number, I mean, tens of thousands of employees. Right. How does the equality groups work? How many people are involved in them? And then maybe four specifically just to give our listeners a vantage point.

Sue Warkne: Yeah. So we do have about sixty thousand employees. About half of the employees are involved in at least one employee resource group. Faithfulness to everybody’s surprise, once it launched about three and a half years ago, became the fastest growing employee resource group in company history. So it is right now about thirty two hundred employees in 20 different cities all around the world, from Israel to Mexico to Australia, Singapore. So it’s become a huge rallying point for Salesforce and it is quite big.

William Norvell: Wow, that’s amazing. Over five percent of the workforce, I mean, just in looking for an outlet, looking for people who can understand who they are at a deeper level, that’s just fascinating.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, people usually will align with inequality. We call them equality groups that represent their number one or number two identifiers. So to be part of faith us, it probably means that faith in some way is probably the number one way that you would define yourself over gender, over race, over other aspects of your identity. And there is a big population for whom that is a reality.

William Norvell: And I know you’ve spoken at national conferences and things like that, you know, talking about this, talking about faith force. How come, you know, Henry made the pitch earlier that Silicon Valley is the leader. Is that because we live here and we happen to know people that work at those organizations that tell us about them? Or are these quite common in organizations around the country? Are they growing or are they declining? Tell us a little bit of the landscape of what’s happening in the world.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, I think they are quite common. I lean on the research of Brian Graham of the Religious Freedom and Business Foundation. He has the preeminent research there, which shows 20 percent of Fortune 500 companies do have an official faith presence, meaning their public website talks about faith, inclusion and faith diversity. So that could be pretty shocking to folks that 20 percent of Fortune 500. So there is some kind of presence. And of the other 80 percent, there’s probably secret groups that are meeting for prayer and Bible study and fellowship. So it is quite common. I think the reason this has sprung up so much in Silicon Valley is Silicon Valley is such a home of diversity and equity and equality that, you know, when you say things like bring your full, authentic self to work, we are an inclusive company. We care about diversity. You then have to ask the question, well, what if faith is my primary identifier? Can I bring my full, authentic self to work? And you have to answer that our executives, our leaders in Silicon Valley have to have an answer to that. And anything other than absolutely is potentially discriminatory. It is marginalizing. So I think these companies have really, you know, built up this value of equality so much that they’ve really had to say, well, what about this aspect of identity? And luckily, they have stepped to the plate and opened the door to it.

William Norvell: Now, it’s really interesting. And, you know, it’s funny because. Right. I mean, the old classic saying don’t talk about religion and politics at work. Right. But with that, I’m interested. How have you seen it impact the lives of people? You know, we love stories here. Do you have a story or two that you could share with us on the lives of employees and how? You know, I would imagine it makes them better human beings, but also better workers and feel more part of an organization that they work for.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, I’ll share a quick one about a Christian man and then another one about a Muslim man. So Christian man. So when we first had the Christian prayer groups and that was just starting, you know, this man joined on Zoome and he just had this look of shock on his face. And I noticed he was tearing up and I said, what’s that about? And he said he was an older man. And he said, I have wanted this for twenty years. I have just wanted to pray, you know, and it just meant so much to him. He’d wished for this. He had feared he would never be able to kind of integrate these two lives. So it just. Gave him the sense of belonging, of peace, of kind of reconciliation. The stress lifted off of him. But an even more important example of that is this Muslim man I’ll tell you about. And I think it’s good for Christians to know to what our brothers and sisters of other faiths are going through as well, not just thinking about what it’s like to be a Christian in these environments, but this man, he’s an engineer and he was looking tired. And so his manager said, you know, what’s going on? And he looked down and the manager, you know, said, it’s OK, you can tell me. And he mumbled under his breath, I’m fasting for Ramadan. And the manager said something very important. And he said, Oh, tell me more about that. And the man looked up and he said, well, I’m fasting from sunup to sundown for the purpose of gaining compassion for those in need, which blew the manager away. He didn’t know about Ramadan and he said something even more important, which was, how can I support you? That one question changed this man’s life. This thing that he thought he had to hide his entire career was something that not only was OK and safe, but something that the manager cared about and even wanted to support. This engineer went back and the manager encouraged him to teach people about Ramadan. He taught his team about Ramadan. Some people fasted with him. We kind of just celebrated with him. They came together to celebrate Eid at the end of it all together, this engineer brags about his manager. He is doing fantastic. He recruits people, says this is the best place to work. I’ve had employees come up to me in the old days when we were in person and say, faith first is why I’m here. I heard people talk about faith force and I didn’t feel safe to pray at my company. So I left and I came here. We have top talent that are not only staying, but they are recruiting their friends because of faith for. So it is a huge business impact. It’s a morale impact to feel safe and seen and then it’s a business impact to be able to keep top talent and recruit their friends.

William Norvell: OK, you just set up the next question without knowing it. Or maybe, you know, maybe you just sensed it. Maybe that was the spirit working from an investor standpoint. Right. Is this something people should be looking forward to? Would you make an argument that this leads to greater employee retention, therefore more productive workers, therefore a better overall? I’m not saying you have to make that argument, but how would you think about that from an investor standpoint?

Sue Warkne: I definitely think so. I mean, it has had a very big business impact. I mentioned the recruiting and the retention and the productivity of just feeling safe. But there’s other things there are. You think of innovation. So I think of Nike. Nike innovated recently with Nike hejab for the Muslim community, which just took off. You know, that came out of realizing that faith identities matter. We at Salesforce support tons of nonprofits, including many, many who are Christian nonprofits, you know, that go out in disaster relief or anti sex trafficking. And they use Salesforce to track fundraising churches, huge churches use Salesforce to track, you know, their messaging out to their congregation. And we learn from that. Salesforce learns from that and improves the way that we service nonprofits because of churches and because of Christian nonprofits. So innovation is another aspect. And then, you know, our customers are Christian. As I mentioned, we have lots of Christian customers and they’re expecting that the company that they are paying to service them is faith tolerant. They expect that and they fear when that isn’t the case. So it’s not only a benefit to the company and the employees and the products that they sell, but it really does build trust with customers when they can see, OK, this is a faith friendly company.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so I’m going to voice something that’s probably in the back of a lot of our listeners minds. Again, we have a vast majority Christian audience, as you might imagine. And I think that some number of people are probably thinking, gosh, it seems strange if I’m driven by my faith as an investor or I know that the entrepreneur, the CEO, is driven by their Christian faith to be able to celebrate Ramadan and to be able to lift up different religions makes me feel a little strange. And so, therefore, I think I’m maybe I’m getting the fact that that can lead to employee retention, but the orthodoxy of my faith is in conflict and, you know, what does it look like? And so what I want to ask you is and I’ve never used this term before, but what does it look like to bring together faiths which have mutually exclusive, exclusive faith claims and worldviews? And part of us there’s a dissonance there, which is, gosh, how can you do that? Aren’t you going ahead and necessarily injecting conflict in? And then if you’re a Christian and you believe that there is the way, the truth and the life, how do you celebrate some? As somebody else who clearly doesn’t believe that and would love to convince somebody else to their way of thinking, I think that not being able to overcome that dissonance is what is holding back lots of people. How do you because you’ve identified yourself as a born again Christian. How do you persevere through that? How do you think through that?

Sue Warkne: Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics because I don’t come from a church background. To me, this is no big deal. Like, of course, you can talk to anybody and you know, but but when I talk to people that come from a more church background, they do feel a lot of worry and fear. And I understand it. I totally get it. I mean, I have poured myself through the Bible and through God’s word, and it’s very clear what we are to do and not do. And we’re not to worship other gods and we are not to worship idols. And anything of that nature is serious. And I believe that. So, you know, how could I, for example, go celebrate Eid or celebrate, you know, a pagan holiday or something like Beltane is coming up for me first. So I have really clear guidelines. I just have very super clear policies and guidelines. And same with faith for Sophie, Force does three things we give back. We do tons of volunteering events, helping the homeless. Every faith agrees and helping those in need refugees, et cetera. So we give back. We do celebrate holidays and I’ll explain how we do and do not do those. And we educate. So we teach managers about, you know, what holidays mean. Don’t say happy Yom Kippur, for example, because that’s a somber holiday, you know, in the old days, don’t have a big buffet party. When you have team members who are fasting, you know, we educate. But the celebration piece is the part that people are afraid of because they don’t want to cross the line and offend God. And so we say within that celebration, in my mind, if I’m not worshiping other gods or praying to other gods in those celebrations, then I think it’s a great way to have faith conversations. So going and partaking in a meal for Eid, you know, and learning about their culture, learning about, you know, my Muslim colleagues is a wonderful way, I think, to show them love, to show that maybe their perception of Christianity isn’t accurate. And a quick story of that. When I first got my very first budget of faith, it was an official thing. A Muslim man set up time with me and he said very quietly, he said, see, I’ve been trying to have an Eid celebration for three years and keep getting turned down. Do you think I could have just a little bit of your budget? And I looked at him and this just outpouring of love came out of me and I said, you can have it all. And he looked at me shocked and he said he said, Why? Because he knew as a Christian I was out, you know, and proud. And he said, why would you do that? And I said, Because I love you. Because of my faith. I love you and I want to support you. And we had the biggest celebration ever. It was like hundreds of people came through and it was this coming together. And the comment was, wow, that’s not what I thought Christianity was like. So it is an enormous opportunity to destigmatize Christianity and to heal wounds. It’s not about worshiping Allah or other gods. It’s about loving our neighbor. And what better way than to just talk to them and see them and listen to them? It’s not following their text. It’s just loving them.

Henry Kaestner: OK, that’s fascinating. So I want to get a little bit and I think that you’re right, by the way, it’s not just fascinating and I personally disagree with you. I think that I think that we’re called to love our neighbor. And of course, in the Bible, Jesus mentions the parable, the Good Samaritan, which is somebody from a different nation and different faith tradition, was the one that was ultimately used to illustrate what it looks like to love your neighbor. And so, as your heart is, what does it look like for me to love somebody? Because as I understand it, from what you’re seeing, as you’re trying to overcome some perceptions about where Christians are thought of, particularly in this environment which you are at in Silicon Valley, in San Francisco, oftentimes from having lived out here, Christians are thought of as being judgmental. And, you know, judge, not lest you be judged. There are some different aspects of let them know you buy your love. Right. And so you’re leaning into that in a way that seems to be super winsome and it’s very, very compelling. There are different ways, though, to set up employee resource groups. One is the way that you all have done it. And presumably there are also other companies that say, well, we’re going to have a Christian employee resource group and we have a Jewish one and a Muslim one. And so there’s not going to be as much of an intermingling. And presumably you miss some of that opportunity to have some of the activities you’re talking about. So there are probably pros and cons of each. But can you walk us through some of the different models you’ve seen? And then if you’re an investor listening as podcast, how you might coach them or suggest them that they introduce this to the. Company they sit on the board of or invest in.

Sue Warkne: Yeah, there are multiple, though you touched on the main two of like separate groups or an interfaith group with faith force and other companies that are interfaith. They still have siloed groups because in those groups you do specific things that wouldn’t be appropriate at the interfaith level. So prayer and Bible study, we still have a Christians at Salesforce group and it’s still hundreds of people and they meet for prayer and Bible study. That doesn’t happen at Faith Force and Muslims, Muslims at Salesforce go and pray together at certain times of the day. That’s not a faith force activity. So prayer, worship, scriptural reading happens in those siloed groups intentionally because that is really where worship is happening. And there’s a couple of reasons. I think the interfaith model is more successful and truly most companies are turning toward it. So a lot of companies, they started with the more siloed groups and they are now creating interfaith kind of umbrella’s over that. It’s much more palatable to HRR to go to them and talk about the term faith, diversity, faith, inclusion. That is something that matches their other language of equality and inclusion. So it’s a much easier sell and you avoid a lot of conflict. So with the siloed groups, you can imagine there’s a couple of things. One is potential competition like, oh, well, how much budget did the Jewish group get? Did we get the same amount of budget? And what about a very small group? You know, like Shenzhen is a faith group, right. I mean, this might be five people. Do they get budget? What about the 12 other potential religions, world views that might pop up that would have a right to that budget as well, including a satanic group, which does happen, including, you know, an atheist group or all these different groups? It’s a lot of pressure for an H.R. organization to have to say yes to siloed groups because it’s unknown what’s going to come at them in the future. Are there 20 other, you know, the Spaghetti Monster group that’s going to expect budget as well. So make it easy on them and suggest this interfaith model and feel peace that you’re not advocating other gods. You’re not lifting up something you don’t find truthful. You’re simply opening up a way to have conversation and celebration. And by the way, the fact that we organize these events together is what leads to just the most incredible breakthrough conversations. Right? Because I meet somebody at an event or another event, a SUKA event first and have incredible conversations that lead to more conversations that lead to hopefully them seeing a glimpse of Jesus Amen, amen.

William Norvell: I hate to come to a close, but that’s what we have to do. Now, I’ve got a feeling we’re going to get a lot of questions on this one. So we might have to we might have to have you back. I just think this is such a pertinent topic. I think every company can consider can think through whether, you know, this fits them and fits their employee group. And just so grateful for you taking the time to walk through how you’ve seen it work and some of the different ways to go about it. As we do come to a close, one of the things we love to do is try to figure out a way that God’s word and his scripture can transcend our guest and our listeners lives. And so what we always love to ask at the end is, is there anything that God has placed on your heart through his word lately, whether it’s in the season, whether it could be this morning, whether it could be something you meditated on your whole life, but just maybe something that you feel the spirit is telling you to share with our audience, we’d be grateful. Mm.

Sue Warkne: Yeah. I’ve been very meditative the past month about what am I supposed to do now. My faith force is a success. Do they really need me at the helm anymore. I don’t feel that they do. I feel like God is redirecting me somewhere else and so I’m just trying to be really attentive to that. So the image I keep getting in my daily reading is about settlements. I have a quote here have twice actually on my way. So this is from Solms. So faithfulness springs forth from the earth and righteousness looks down from heaven. The Lord will indeed give what is good and our land will yield its harvest. So I feel like this year is all about building roots and being planted and seeing what fruit comes from that, you know, faith forces and success. Let’s be ready for what’s next.

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David Batstone’s entrepreneurial journey begins at his favorite restaurant in San Francisco. As he recalls, he loved the tandoori chicken, but he didn’t realize that he was eating in the center of a human trafficking ring that had brought over 500 teenagers from India into the United States for the purpose of forced labor. 

A journalist and venture capitalist, David couldn’t reconcile the fact that human slavery was happening in his own backyard. So, he decided to do something about it. The result is Not for Sale, a book where he breaks down how business can fix the $31 billion human trafficking epidemic.

Today, he’s with us to share that journey of how God opened his eyes to the brokenness in the world and gave him a vision for how to fix it.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

David Batstone: Like I thought, look, I was at the end of a river pulling bodies out as they were drowning and flailing, and that’s compassion and something is very important. Part of my spiritual journey is to practice compassion, but at the same time is wisdom, and that is to look upstream and say, well, how are these bodies falling in? Like, what are the systems and what are the people, the demand behind it? How do we solve the problem there?

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We’ve got a special guest today, David Batstone is in the House talking about the ministry that he started with regards to human trafficking. And, David, it’s great to have you on the program. Thank you very much for being here.

David Batstone: It’s a real pleasure to talk to some brothers about my heart.

Henry Kaestner: So there’s so much to talk about with what is on your heart. And I want to get into that, provide our listeners a context about the industry and the problem that you’re looking to solve and how you as an entrepreneur have gone about solving that problem. But before we do that, love to start our show every time by asking our guests who they are, where they come from, what their faith journey has been, and really bring us up to that moment in your life when all of a sudden this became a big, big deal for us. So what is it like growing up brings up to speed?

David Batstone: Well, you know, I grew up in the Midwest and I grew up in a evangelical background, the Plymouth brother. And maybe some people who are listening are familiar with the Plymouth Brethren. But it’s a small community that very much values the scripture and looked for ways to implement it in the life of the church and in the community around. And I went I went to Westmont College, which is a Christian evangelical school. And in Santa Barbara. Really? Really. Yeah. And I went on to get an objective and studied theology and have a Ph.D. in theology. And so, you know, today I’m a venture capitalist and teach business at the University of San Francisco. I don’t know if I’m probably the only business professor in entrepreneurship that has a Ph.D. in theology.

Henry Kaestner: Then you may be the only one. The only one I know Rusty.

Rusty Rueff: I don’t know any others either. So whether or not that you’re the only one, we’re going to give it to you today. You got that badge, you know.

David Batstone: Yeah, a dash. My dreams. I had one thing I stand up for.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so tell us I want you to take us back to the restaurant that you used to frequent that you later found out was a center of human trafficking. So this is a restaurant, the United States, correct?

David Batstone: Yeah, it’s in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I was a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley at the time, and I was also a professor teaching University of San Francisco. So it wasn’t like I was looking for another gig, Henry. I mean, you know, my life was full and it was just a shock to learn that my favorite restaurant I would go to regularly. You know, I love the Italys and Poppadoms and Teriyaki Chicken. Yeah, but I learned that this restaurant had trafficked young girls from the ages of 14 to 19, over 500 young girls. Oh, my goodness. Into the San Francisco Bay Area for the purpose of forced labor. First in this restaurant, they were being forced to work against their will and then they’d be taken out the brothels and fruit and vegetable fields in California. I didn’t discover it and that was part of my journey. The trafficker kept these young girls and fifteen to twenty in an apartment and there was a natural gas leak that killed one girl and injured others. And when the police showed up, they said, we need to get you away from the gas and we’re more worried about him and pointed to the trafficker. And so front page of my newspaper, I read it and I’ve been going to this place for years. And I was like, how could I not see this? How could have been blind to it? And it’s really funny how, you know, when we often say we pray that God would give us some wisdom or teach us a path or open a door. And I could have changed my philosophy on this because I think God is always putting things in front of us. It’s how we respond to those things. That’s how it builds our character, the way we respond to things that God puts in front of us. It’s not like we need to somehow go out and find it. It’s there. And I can’t tell you why. That was a defining moment of my life. I had to do something about it because I’m sure many other people went to that restaurant. I said, well, that’s a very bizarre experience. But for me, it was a calling. I had to respond to it.

Henry Kaestner: That’s incredible, the size and scope, and it’s just right there, I think that when we think about human trafficking, we think that, yes, we’ve heard about girls coming from Nepal or India, but we generally think that they I don’t know, they go to Amsterdam or they go to some other places. It’s far from us. But that many girls, it’s not two or three or 500 through a restaurant in San Francisco. Reasonably civilized city. That’s incredible.

David Batstone: I’m shocking. So I should call in other people that, you know, if you heard of this and some friends in L.A. said, well, yeah, we just had a sewing factory in East Los Angeles where 112 girls from Thailand were imprisoned and forced to sew clothes every day. And they would then be locked into rooms in the same facility where they were sewing clothes. And then I called friends in the Texas area, Houston and Dallas, and they would tell me of these bars or cantinas where young girls would be lined up with a numbers printed on their chest and a man would come to get a beer and then point to number 30 for who he wanted to buy for a night or weaker. And it was just, you know, just so shocking to me that this was a part of, you know, my country and my reality that I felt like, OK, I need to really understand this. So I took a leave of absence from my university and my venture capital bank. And I went around the world for a year, follow the money. I went from San Francisco to Bangalore and went from Los Angeles to Thailand. I went from Houston and Dallas to Peru and Guatemala. So, you know, basically follow the money to understand this trade in people.

Henry Kaestner: So I was going to ask you, so you’re an entrepreneur, you’ve been a venture capital. You understand it. Entrepreneurs solve problems. You see that there’s clearly a problem. But instead of doing something right away, you say, I want to fully understand the problem, let’s follow the money. So what an incredible adventure that must have been. Oh, you know, I wish that there’s a documentary filmmaker along with you as you kind of leave San Francisco in this restaurant and then you go to Bangalore and you’re in the back alleyways. So you spent a year trying to understand the problem, following the money. And at some point in time, you’re like, I got it. There’s a big problem. I think I have a sense about how I might address it. What was that?

David Batstone: It’s funny how we have an accepted paradigm of how you approach a concern, whether it’s social, environmental. And I’m sure everyone listening today has something that they really care about, whether it’s malaria or global warming or extreme poverty. So it’s very funny, though, that many of us, when we attempt to address these problems, we open our heart and we shut down our brain. At least that’s what I did, because here I was a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley. And when I confronted with this problem of trafficking, you know, over 40 million individuals living in some form of forced bondage or slavery, what I did is I started a bad business model called a nonprofit, a charity. And now I do want to clarify, I don’t think charities are all bad or wrong or they’re foolish, but they are not sustainable and they’re not scalable. And if you really want to address a problem of the magnitude we’re talking about, you need to develop a business model that has the scalability to it to actually solve the problem. So what I did is I set up a nonprofit and we would go to churches and rotary clubs and schools and, you know, we get donations and then we build a shelter. And I mean, we were good at it. It was fine. It was great. But it was small and it was very difficult to build something that would actually, I believe, solve the problem.

Rusty Rueff: But you did find a way to release the talents that God had given you. And one of the things I find fascinating about your story, and I think it should be enlightening to all entrepreneurs. And I remember, you know, we were much younger than when you wrote Not for Sale, when you and I first met years and years ago in San Francisco. But I was impressed then and I’m still impressed now that you not only had the heart for it, but as you started to allude and get into. You also had some skills, some talents that you’d been given that all you needed to do was sort of look inside of yourself and say, wait a minute, I can do something with this. And you had these journalism skills. That you uncovered, so take us through that and then take us into, you know, what you ended up doing with those writing skills.

David Batstone: I appreciate that, Rusty, because it is I think many people listening. They say, well, how could I do? I like to do something more meaningful. I’d love to be involved and say works that that would bring about a benefit for the world. And oftentimes they don’t think about, well, what do I know best and who do I know best and what would be the process I would follow. And I guess I started to look at the fact that in Silicon Valley, if I wanted to build an enterprise, what I do is I’d find the best capital, the best talent and cutting edge technology. And I would build a company based on that that would be profitable and would reach internationally. And in the case I said, well, what if I took those same skills, that same kind of formula, and I applied it to human trafficking? And the first thing to do is bring together the best talent, so I got 50 people who, you know, the smartest people I knew, the most successful, you know, the founder of Twitter was one of them. I got the founder of the largest health care online company. I got a you got a baseball player for the San Francisco Giants, like people who are successful. And I said, look, help me come up with a business model or a business plan for a very specific situation. And this situation is in the Amazon of Peru, my nonprofit not for sale. We build a shelter for young kids coming from native or indigenous communities in the Amazon. They’re being trafficked into Lima. Help us come up with a business model. So we had a 24 hour period where we brainstormed and had a competition. The winning idea was to start a company that would source the wonderful assets or ingredients that come out of the Amazon. These super herbs like Mocha Mocha suddenly pay a fair wage, create an economic platform that would provide long term security for the native communities, put into a beverage, sell it in mainstream grocery stores and return profits back to those communities. It’s a wonderful, beautiful idea. Unless you’re the guy on Monday morning that now has to start this company, that’s a beverage. Right. And I knew nothing about beverage. And so, again, I thought, OK, what would I do if I was in Silicon Valley now? What would I do if I was just another charity? Well, I go and find the best beverage maker in the world who could use these herbs and put them into the beverage and make a wonderful product. And that’s what I did. I just found the best beverage maker in the world, hired them, paid them what Coca-Cola would have paid him. I didn’t pay them a nonprofit salary in equity in the company. And, you know, fast forward six years. We are now the number one health beverage in America. Rebel groups extract Barberi leaves rebel, and we have now returned over a million dollars back to those communities through our profit sharing. We’re sourcing ingredients in three countries now and we choose the ingredient based on the most impact, not the cheapest ingredient. But where will we have the most impact on poor communities? So over 30000 families, one hundred twenty thousand people, more or less, are being empowered in poor, rural, exploited communities. So to me, this was like a revelation. It’s taking the same principles and mission that I had a nonprofit, but embedding the DNA into a enterprise, a for profit enterprise.

Rusty Rueff: Well, I got to give you a plug, because unless I’m wrong, Serena Williams is on your side, right, with Rebel, right. I see her on television all the time.

David Batstone: We got we’re fortunate. We have so many. Rubirosa is a great actress. She’s a bit one of our big ambassadors, Michael Franti, who’s a musician. So we get a lot of actually actors, musicians, artists who come to us and say, is there any way I could be an ambassador for your brand? And that’s the great thing about, you know, doing well by doing good. People want to be a part of it.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s awesome. So it reminds me of and we all know the story of Esther did write in the book of Esther. And Mordechai says to her, you know, is it that you’ve been called for such a time just as this? Do you feel like God specifically prepared and equipped you to make the headway into this sort of massive, let’s call it a massive force of evil in this world? Did you have that Esther moment?

David Batstone: Oh, very much so. You know, coming out of that experience of understanding that in my own backyard was this trafficking of hundreds of young girls from Bangalore. I just could not walk away. It was a calling. And to have walked away would have meant for me a betrayal of a character that I was being called to fill. And, you know, I suppose even today, now, 15 years later, people ask me, well, gosh, know, aren’t you just being overwhelmed by this evil or by the enormity of the problem? And I say, you know, for whatever reason, I’m more inspired by what we do achieve and the people we can rescue and save and the empowerment that does happen, that inspires me more than the enormity of what we haven’t done. And I think once you’re on that calling, then your inspiration comes through your daily walk and not through some kind of expectation of how much of it you’re going to solve.

Rusty Rueff: So I’m going to encourage everybody to jump on Amazon and go back and get that book not for sale, because it tells your story and it tells the story of the beginnings of what you tried to conquer. If you were writing an epilog or a new chapter for not for sale, what would it say right now?

David Batstone: I would say I’d say it’s the art of being a rebel and of course, is the name of the first company we started. We now have 10 companies, by the way. And I could talk about some of those if you’d like. But the art of being a rebel, meaning that we’re so much through social media or through advertising or just through our environment that we live in, that we’re so, you know, told to what makes us valuable, what we should consume or what career we should pursue. And to be a rebel, anything in the best sense is to hear a different voice, to follow a different path. And that requires us to have a strong spiritual grounding that we realize that where the world is going and what is named as what is valuable, what will make me a success may not be what’s true for my character. And so I think the art of being a rebel is about choosing a path that you’re going to follow, regardless of what the rest of the world tells you.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m fascinated by, you know, we’ve been around the space long enough to know that there’s this thing of impact investing, and so there are social entrepreneurs that come out of programs like Praxis and others that really have a desire to really make an impact on communities in many cases, work with them on the business side, which I love, which is there’s injustices in this world. Yes, there’s an opportunity for philanthropy. But in terms of providing dignity rather than dependency, there’s a place for the markets in all of this. You teach about social entrepreneurship in innovative entrepreneurship in San Francisco. I’m wondering what you do as you take a 19, 20 year old student that is starting to understand the enormity of the injustice in this world. They’ve got a heart for these things. What is it that you do as you train them, as you give them this kind of alternate imagination and you equip them? What do you tell them? How do you get them trained up?

David Batstone: Hmm. What I find my students is they are looking for a bridge to tie together with their heart. And talent is what they’re really passionate about and their expectation of creating a life that is, you know, financially responsible and maybe having a family. And and they feel like they have to choose between the two. And probably the most helpful thing that I do in my classroom is to help them understand that their skills are needed all over the world. And there’s incredible opportunities for them to deploy investment or accounting or, you know, their entrepreneurial passion in environments that are basically untouched. And so there’s so much opportunity in the world today, the way that we’re rewriting our energy systems and the way that we’re going to be moving into new economies of transport. And this is every area health care is going to transform that. I would say to my students that even though you’re getting the message that, wow, it’s almost like you’re nineteen eighty four, you wish you joined the Beatles, it’s over. There’s nothing new and there’s nothing in the truth of the matter is, is that you’re living in the most exciting moments in history and you can use your skills to build livlihood not only for yourself but for those who typically are being left out of the world economic picture today. So I really do encourage them to think bigger than simply can I get a job at Goldman Sachs or Apple?

Henry Kaestner: So I think that you’re probably finding this new generation is really, really open to that in a way, not the to options weren’t. Do you ever see there’s a book that we all know called When Helping Hurts by guy named Brian Fisher, talking about some great intentions? And what are things like that might go wrong? What are the unintended consequences? Are there examples when impact investing or social entrepreneurship might also go wrong, where somebody comes at it with the right intentions, wants to really address an injustice, but there’s something that they don’t see that ends up maybe even doing more harm than good. And I shouldn’t focus on the negative side because there’s so much positive that can happen. And yet there are probably some examples where it’s done poorly as well.

David Batstone: Absolutely. The best way to talk about poor examples is start with my own life. You know, when I first started working in social entrepreneurship, I was in Latin America and I tried to create economic opportunities for poor communities and teach them agricultural skills or teach in the show or whatever skills training. And you often find this in the nonprofit or ministry world that we train people to do a job. But some of that we never think about is, well, if there’s no ecosystem, if there’s not a environment where then there’s investment opportunity or there is a supply chain or a demand for the products or services, then really you’re equipping someone for a very disappointing and frustrating life. And I find this is not only within a training program, but say, in well hearted people who want to teach people in Africa how to grow mangoes better. OK, but how do you think about the system that allows for that success, whatever investment that might be for that community? And so I suppose from the start, you need to think about both the demand and the supply and the ability to use your investment in a way that those communities can actually begin to build out an economy and a platform that will sustain itself over a long period of time. Unfortunately, I find that many social impact enterprise groups. What they do is that they have a very, you know, three to five year investment and then it dries up and it goes away.

Rusty Rueff: So, David, I want to go a little deeper into sort of the faith journey that you took. Right. That at the time when you said, I’m walking away from all of this and I’m going to travel around the world and I’m going to go solve or I’m going to try to solve or try to understand sex trafficking, that’s as much of a faith journey is sitting there going, I’m going to solve world hunger. I mean, because it’s a big thing, like you were trying to put your arms around so we can. Call that a faith journey, but let’s also call it a faith journey, you know, with your faith. Take us through that journey that God put you on and share some of the stories, maybe ups and downs of your own personal faith journey as you embarked on this.

David Batstone: You know, it’s really interesting, Rusty, that we like to make heroes out of people when we see the whole narrative. So while it’s very heroic, but everyone’s journey, whether it’s a hero’s journey or not, starts with just one step. And that’s the hardest step, is to say I’m going to leave my security and my comfort to do something. And it it’s scary to take that one step. And I honestly was not thinking of anything beyond, you know, I need to understand how this was happening in my backyard. My one step is I’m going to go to India and Thailand, follow the trail of trafficking from California to Asia and just understand it. It was curiosity. And also, if I made it visible, I was going to go back to my venture capital firm at my university. But what happened is that you made that one step. Then I met this woman who in northern Thailand, she had rescued twenty seven kids who were in karaoke bars being forced to sell their bodies to male clients. And she was living out in an empty field without any resources. And so I went, oh, man, OK, I have a second step. I’ll take. I promised I would build her a home. That was OK. Now I’m going to, you know, write this book about my understanding of what we’ve learned and to build a home. Then I’ll go back to my life. And that just keeps cascading. So, you know, the fact that not for sale does what it does today, if you think, oh, my gosh, it’s wonderful, what you do is that, you know, that I’ve just been stumbling my way toward it now. You know, there’s been a lot of ups and downs and things that I wish we had done differently. And, you know, one saying I learned and gone I really would love is that we don’t mind stumbling because it makes us move forward more quickly. And I think that’s probably than my journey is. Like I’d like to say that there was clarity, but probably reluctantly. I took each step and then you look back and say, well, God really blessed that narrative. God bless that journey

Henry Kaestner: or take us forward in a second to some of the other ventures that you’re involved with and energy and a number of different projects. I want to go backwards, though, first, which is to go into this kind of atwar about understanding the larger ecosystem. And I’m compelled not only about the stories of where these girls come from, but also through to the demand side. And part of me is just thinking, oh, my goodness, if you can have prostitution where people have numbers on their chest and dozens and dozens of girls being sold in the field, what role does the demand side have in the equation on trafficking?

David Batstone: Well, it really is. The preponderance of the problem is that there is a demand for either the use of someone’s labor or their body for someone else’s pleasure or someone else’s greed. So, you know, after five years of my first five years of not for sale, Henry, what I felt like I thought like I was at the end of a river pulling bodies out as they were drowning and flailing. And that’s compassion. And something is very important. Part of my spiritual journey is to practice compassion, but at the same time is wisdom, and that is to look upstream and say, well, how are these bodies falling in? Like, what are the systems and what are the people, the demand behind it? How do we solve the problem there? And I suppose I don’t see there’s enough of that being done within the anti trafficking movement to actually solve the problem of the area of demand and not only the supply problem, that is people who are the consequences of these actions. So I think it’s really important to understand that demand side. And, you know, it’s everything from factories to agricultural fields to brothels to fishing industry, fishing boats. I mean, it’s embedded in so many systems that one thing that I felt as a business entrepreneur, I’m probably the best thing I could do is rather run after every one and kind of try and stop. All of the negativity was to start creating models of desire in the world that I wanted to live in. I’m sure other people want to live in as well. Start designing companies where there’s dignity and goodness at the core of the company in the DNA of the company, thereby inspire other young entrepreneurs to be able to want to live that life and pursue those dreams.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to get into that. But one last thing, the deterrent part, because I’m just thinking right through the demand side. I mean, the demand for lust and all that stuff, I mean, is biblical. We all know it. We all know that it’s inside of us. I’m wondering, you know, some number of people have there’s a debate about whether the death penalty is a deterrent or not. I wonder how, though deterrence enters into the demand side of the equation with sex trafficking, is somebody listening to this? Can you lobby your legislator to be able to have stricter rules? Does that even work? Do you find that rules are just lax enough and that just authorities kind of look the other way even in America, does deterrence and punishment work or is that just a myth?

David Batstone: Deterrence is effective and I think there’s different levels of deterrence. One is simply prosecution and rule of law that actually takes seriously the practice of same sex trafficking. I remember when we first started not for sale. I mean, it was hard to get, you know, local police officials and FBI to believe the extent of the problem in our American cities. And, you know, I’m not trained as a law enforcement officer, but I my team and I, we would have to go undercover with a camera and go into these brothels and massage parlors and the like and then take that footage to law enforcement. And it’s changed now. It is a much more of an awareness and a much more of a compliance with that in the United States at least. But so that’s one of the other is I think probably the biggest deterrence is the public shaming that comes from being exposed. It’s really interesting. I’m in Sweden right now. This interview in Sweden, what they’ve done is they put in newspapers or on billboards and shaming the johns and the demand side. And, you know, all too often it’s the victims is the young women who are kind of shamed or put into the spotlight. And, you know, it’s remarkable the level to which that puts another fear of the social community even more than in many cases, just the being arrested.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. OK, so I want to move forward towards your equipping some of these entrepreneurs to solve more problems, to create these businesses where business is done the right way. You’ve got just business and not for sale was maybe your first foray into that, but you’ve not stopped there. You’re in Sweden right now on an energy deal. Walk us through some of the different projects you’re working on.

David Batstone: Certainly, you know, part of this was it’s an ongoing evolution of understanding how could we scale the solution? And that’s really the objective here is not for me to be able to come on your show. And I could tell you three stories of young women or boys. And that’s a fantastic again, I don’t want to undersell that, but is being able to say, look, now we can impact millions because it’s the size of this, the scope of that. So, you know, I had a great entrepreneur come to me and I’m always looking for entrepreneurs. And he said, look, I have this idea of being able to assist big companies with mobility. And so if you look at the big tech companies or the big pharmaceutical companies or retail companies, they’re hiring people from all over the world. They want talent and they’ll move them around the world. So they’re in mobility. And so I thought about this, you know, look at all make an investment in your company and I’ll get behind you to be able to get the Apple, Facebook, Googles, Nike’s, and those are all our customers today for this company. But you have to take one percent of all the revenue. We generate one percent of the gross revenue and dedicate it to those people who are in mobility, refugees, human trafficking victim. But they don’t have those services. They don’t have someone to help them say when you come to a new city, find a place for your children to go to school or find a dentist. And so basically, we created a concierge service that now is global. This company, we’re the only investors in it, and it’s called velocity. And now we do have Apple, Facebook, Google, Nike, Twitter, all the companies, Nike, Walmart, Starbucks, they all pay us to take care of their employees. And what we’re doing is we’re taking some of that revenue directly to those communities that also are in deep need of mobility. Security.

Rusty Rueff: That’s very cool. That’s actually inspiring, David, that you’ve extended what you’ve done into, you know, organizations that we all know that needed to be shook at their core to say this is something important. And, you know, to that point, you know, on this podcast, you have the ears now of thousands of entrepreneurs, Faith driven entrepreneurs. What would you like to tell them about how they can, even in the earliest stages, you know, use their businesses to do more than just create a bottom line profit? And how would you like to see Faith driven entrepreneurs, you know, solving these types of problems?

David Batstone: I’ve been involved in a lot of faith driven entrepreneurial events. You know, there’s great things like businesses, Mission BAM and The Lion’s Den. And, you know, I could go on and on with faith driven organizations. And I guess my message continually to them is you’re not thinking big enough. You know, it’s almost as if it’s a ministry that we’re stamping a Bible verse on top of or some kind of a mission. But, you know, it’s not about transforming the business. And what I want to see is that we transform business, that we actually redeem the business model to bring about goodness for the community. And that requires thinking, you know, with grabble, my goal is to compete with Coca-Cola. Right. With velocity. I want to be the number one mobility company in the world. Doesn’t sacrifice my mission. My mission is at the heart of all that I do. But I have to think bigger. And I think entrepreneurs are making. Or God too small, they’re making their mission too insignificant and they’re not saying that, you know, this is a warrior’s test, is a lions task, and it’s to start to build the best companies in the world, but with faith and values of the center of the company.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, we had Tony Evans on the podcast recently, the pastor of Cliff Fellowship Bible Church in Dallas, and he had a great sort of calling out to Faith driven entrepreneurs, to King Demised. Their business kingdom is your business, you know. And as I listened to that and I listened to you, sort of what I read into all of this is, look, the core of what we do, we might be out there running a agricultural business or cleaning business or a technology business. But if we’re faith driven entrepreneurs, you know, we are to give back, take our talents and our skills and kingdom is our business, but also to find these areas where we have the skills, talents and maybe resources, maybe financial resources that we need to put to help those that can’t be helped. And I’m going to turn this over to Henry to close this out. But I want to continue to encourage you, David, and thank you for the work that you’ve done in such an important area that’s happening all around us that, you know, we don’t see. You had to look into the shadows and you had to go into the shadows to find it. And I appreciate the courage and the journey that you took to get there.

David Batstone: Well, thank you. I appreciate it, Rusty. You know, now my being in Sweden today, I think the other thing that spiritual vision gives you is the audacity to think that you can start to kingdom eyes the world we live in. And, you know, right now I’m really compelled not only to the work of my own people and dignity of people, but also the planet. And how do we rethink and redesign the world so that the planet is something that has the same dignity. But God made it with, you know, working with all the big car companies, Tesla, GM, Ford, for the next generation of car. We’re recycling all the batteries. We’re extracting the minerals that they need for the batteries. But it’s done all with a new kind of technology that is going to just really remarkably change the way that transport is done so that companies, American Battery Technology Company, we also have a hydrogen company. So rethink the world, redesign it, put values at the very center of it

Henry Kaestner: by saying, that’s awesome. So much more to go to. I think that we could do an episode on each one of those ideas about how you’re looking to solve for them, how you’re tracing the money and the problem, just like you did with child trafficking and understanding how the supply chain works and things like energy and how it needs to be redeemed and what does it look like right down to the end user. So we’re going to come back to that. For now. We want to ask you, as we do all of our guests, what you’re hearing from God through his word and doesn’t need to be this morning. But it very well could be. But maybe the last week or last couple of weeks now, as one of the things that unites all of our guests together is God is at work. One of our guests has said Auslan is on the move and he’s very much at work. And what’s your sense with all that?

David Batstone: I’ve been drawing recently to the Proverbs, I’ve been reading a lot of the proverbs. And one of the problems over the last week I’ve been thinking a lot about is Proverbs 17. Twenty two about a cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones. And I just think about what do I surround myself with, what is a cheerful heart? You know, the people around me and I guess in a very glib way of saying is that toxic people really do dry your bones, cheerful people, people who have a good heart, people who are positive, they inspire you. And, you know, I just don’t think a lot about time is precious, relationships are precious. And to surround yourself with people who are hopeful and encourage you, they want to see you succeed. And, you know, if people are a negative force in your life, get rid of them, walk away because they never get better. I know it sounds harsh, but really it’s about building communities of hope and inspiration and faith.

Henry Kaestner: David, thank you very much for being with us. Great joy. Thank you for being one of those people that is a positive force in the midst of all this going on with covid being able to look at some of the challenges that can be solved and getting out there and doing it creatively and then also inspire the next generation through your work in school. That’s super cool as well. Thank you.

David Batstone: Thank you very much. Entrain Rusty really been good to connect with you today.

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Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Aimee Minnich: I was 17 when my dad died. My inheritance was a baby blue plastic trash bin full of quarters. My dad seven years sobriety coin from AA and his prayers. My parents marriage had dissolved when I was seven and I lived with my mom after that. But my dad had done his best to share with us five kids the faith that he discovered on his journey to sobriety. By the grace of God, I went to college and law school on a full ride scholarship, and while I was in my first year of school, first year of law school, my mom and stepdad took their company public. It was a fast, wild ride from nothing to IPO. And since then I’ve sat through family meetings with wealth helpers to discuss the portfolio, and I’ve suffered through the painful estate planning meetings. I tell you this to say that I have seen and personally lived through both ends of the wealth spectrum and it’s given me a lot of opportunity to think about what it means to live a successful life. Is it being able to buy a Lamborghini or a yacht so that I can demonstrate to the world that I made it that I was a success? Is it being able to leave as much as possible to my family and pay as little as possible on estate taxes? You might be wondering what in the world this has to do with the conference for investors. You see, I’ve decided that the best way I can spend my working life is to help families like mine steward their resources, financial, spiritual and social to the best of their abilities and to the glory of God. For families with significant wealth, a lot of it looks like investing. It’s what compels the work that I do now at Impact Foundation, where we help families invest charitable capital in businesses that create jobs, share the gospel and contribute to human flourishing. So what’s the measure of success? I think we all want to get to the end of days and here. Well done, my beloved child. And we’re just doing our best to figure out what that means. We want to be excellent in the craft of investing, but I’m afraid sometimes I and other Faith Driven Investor used the wrong definition of excellence, just as the kingdom of this world misses what it means to live a successful life, so too it gives us an inadequate definition of what makes a successful investment portfolio. The world says, minimize the risk of losing your capital, maximize financial return and invest for the time horizon of your own life and maybe the life of your kids. But risk reward and time horizon have very different meanings in the kingdom of God. Jesus says if anybody wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross and follow me. It’s pretty risky on its face, but God’s omnipotent and good, his time horizon is eternal and we’re really just his money managers, which means the only meaningful risk we can encounter is to disobey his commands or ignore his invitations. So let’s ask then whether his word gives us any indication of how we should invest in scripture. We see at least four uses of capital commended. We’re familiar with the first three charity tithing and traditional investing for return. And to be clear, those are all worthy of our time, effort and money. But I want to focus on gleaning. It’s the most misunderstood and unaddressed but really important uses of capital. Remember how Ruth gathered around the edges of Boaz’ field in the Book of Ruth? Boaz was following the command from Leviticus 19 and 23 to allow for gleaning. The Theology Work Project explains gleaning is a process in which landowners have an obligation to provide the poor and marginalized access to the means of production, which in Leviticus was the land. And to work it themselves, unlike charity, does not depend on the generosity of landowners. Also, unlike charity, it was not given to the poor as a transfer payment. Through gleaning, the poor earned their living the same way as the landowners did by working the fields with their own neighbors. It was simply a command that everyone had a right to access the means of provision created by God. Our economies may not be agrarian anymore, but gleaning nevertheless is instructive for all of us because it has to do with provision rather than harvesting crops. I’ve observed sometimes it’s easier to practice gleaning within our own companies than it is to understand how to do it as investors. I think many of us are afraid to consider investment gleaning because it seems that accepting less than full market rate returns is the purview of the unsophisticated. If I lend money at eight percent and somebody else gets 15 percent. Doesn’t that make me the chump? Plus, people fear that it provides an excuse for lack of excellence from an entrepreneur. Those things certainly could be the causes of poor returns, but that’s not what gleaning entails. True gleaning involves excellence, access, work and sacrifice. In ancient times, a farmer there was leaving some of those fields and unharvested. It meant that he had to be even more efficient, more effective with the portions he was working in order to make enough to feed his own household and follow the command to allow room around the edges. A follower of God had to be the very best farmer around. Excellence is always a hallmark of gleaning. David Simms and John Halverson, at Talanton, are doing an amazing job as they back small and medium sized companies in Kenya and other parts of Africa. They’re demonstrating excellence in their company selection and management, even as they expect less than market rate returns. The next two parts of gleaning access and work, they go together gleaning access to the poor and marginalized for the poor and marginalized. And it’s not the same thing as a handout. Access to the means of production means work for wages. I wouldn’t ever, ever advocate eliminating charity, but I do fear that if we aren’t creating pathways to employment through our philanthropic capital, then we may be doing more harm than good. If you’ve been to Haiti, you’ve seen this firsthand. There are instances where aid given to the poor and marginalized can create access. Scholarships for education or career training are great examples. So as aid in the context of a natural disaster or mass displacement. But at some point we have to begin asking ourselves when does access and helping me find a job rather than another handout for Garfield Produce in Chicago, Access looks like employing former gang members from Chicago’s South Side to grow micro greens, which they sell to restaurants or they used to before covid. Their investors are expecting maybe to get their original loan back, but with no interest. That’s investment gleaning. Sacrifice is the last hallmark of gleaning, and it’s also the scariest until we actually do it. Gleaning means the difference between an eight percent return that creates 100 jobs or a 15 percent return that creates 50 jobs. What looks like sacrifice to others often feels like simple obedience to the person making the sacrifice. If the God of Heaven instructs us to do something, following in obedience is probably the safest bet when we get to the pearly gates. I don’t think he’s going to ask us whether we got a 15 percent IRR or beat our benchmarks. But I am confident that what we do for the least of these, the ways in which we take care of his children who are poor and marginalized will be remembered. So next time you’re looking at an eight percent return that creates a hundred jobs, how might you respond?

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Money is a fact of everyday life. We earn it, spend it and save it. We’re tempted to worship it and to trust it to provide for our needs. While much has been written about the power, danger, and stewardship of money, little has been said about what money actually is and whether or not money itself is moral. 

Today’s guest is here to change that. Jimmy Song is a bitcoin advocate, developer and author who has been contributing to open-source bitcoin projects since 2013. 

On today’s episode he explores the ways in which the current monetary system is broken, what can be done to fix it, and how the ongoing transition to sound money may be a source of hope for a broken world.

Episode Transcript

Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Jimmy Song: So Esau had what we would call in between high time preference, right, like he was very impatient, didn’t have much prudence. Jacob had low time preference. He was willing to wait. He was patient. He was prudent. He was wise. And that’s what I wanted to point out about Bitcoin is there’s an ethic of being willing to wait because Bitcoin is very volatile. It does sort of like turn your stomach. There’s a lot of emotional disturbance in the price going up and down that you kind of have to go through that a lot of people simply can’t take. So for a lot of people, they would rather live for tomorrow and be more like Esau, who cares about my estate? That’s like 30 years from now. I’d rather have the suit now rather than being like Jacob. OK, I’ll forgo the suit now, but that means that I get this huge treasure later on. And to me, that’s at the heart of what both Bitcoin is about and what Christianity is about. Our God promises us treasures in heaven for doing the things that aren’t necessarily rewarded in this life. And that’s for me, what the ultimate in low time preference behavior looks like.

Rusty Rueff: Welcome back, everyone. You found us once again at the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Money, money is a fact of everyday life. We earn it, we spend it, we save it. Sometimes we give it away. We’re tempted to worship it and to trust it, to provide for our needs. And while much has been written about the power, the danger and the stewardship of money, little has been said about what money actually is and whether or not money itself is moral. Today’s guest is here to change that. Jimi Song is a Bitcoin advocate, a developer and an author who has been contributing to open source Bitcoin projects since 2013. On today’s episode, he explores the ways in which the current monetary system is broken, what can be done to fix it, and how the ongoing transition to sound money may be the source of hope for a broken world. We can’t wait to hear what you think of this, but let’s go mine this subject right now.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. We’ve got a really special episode. I say that at the beginning of every one of these look and at some point in time that’s going to ring hollow, but it’s not going to ring hollow today because today is actually super cool. We have our first ever Asian cowboy on the podcast. We’ve never had that before. We never had anybody who was wearing a cowboy hat to a podcast interview. And we may even be able to do a video clip of this in the promo reel. But Jimmy’s song is a really special guest because he’s going to take us through an asset class, Luke, that we actually participated in a little bit, but we don’t know very much about, right?

Luke Roush: That’s right. And it’s a hot asset class, right? It’s garnered a lot of notoriety and a lot of interest in the last few months. So never had an episode on Bitcoin been more appropriate.

Henry Kaestner: I agree. We’ve got Jimmy Song on the podcast today. Jimmy, welcome.

Jimmy Song: Thank you for having me. It’s very exciting for me to be on this podcast. I’ve done a lot of Bitcoin podcast. I haven’t done that many Christian ones. So I am super excited to talk about my faith and how Bitcoin relates to our faith.

Henry Kaestner: So it’s great having a is a real treat before we get going. One of the things that we like to do with every one of our guests is to understand who they are and where they come from and just share with us a bit, you know, who are you? Where do you come from? Where did faith enter into your journey? And then, yes, absolutely. We can tell about all things talking about the money system. We going to talk about greed and corruption and government and crypto and it being a force for good, all those different things. But who are you? Where you come from?

Jimmy Song: Sure. I was born in South Korea and I immigrated to the United States back in nineteen eighty five as an eight year old. So my dad was transferred to an office in New York because at the time he worked for a textile manufacturer and back in the eighties that was where a lot of clothing was made in Korea. But of course the designers were in New York and they wanted to see what materials factory could make and so on. So he was the representative for that company. He worked in the Empire State Building. I still remember going to his office, you know, on the sixty sixth floor next to the diamond exchange and everything. Anyway, we immigrated in nineteen eighty five and one of the things that happened when we came was my parents just kind of missed Korea and though they weren’t religious at the time, they decided to go to church as a way to meet other Korean people. And we started attending church maybe a month after we came to the US and part of that was me growing in faith and learning about God. I went to a summer overnight Christian camp called Word of Life in upstate New York. That was where I was saved. And it’s been a journey since then. Also, around that time I got into computers, I didn’t really even know what they were, but I had like this natural affinity towards them. And I begged my dad to get me one. He got me one from Toys R US as a fourth grader. It was a Commodore sixteen, not the sixty four that everyone knows was a sixteen, which only had like three games. So I learned a lot of programing on that thing, mostly because I wanted to play with this machine and I’ve been programing ever since. So I’ve been a programmer all my life and I went to a startup right out of college. I’ve been doing startups for a long time, pretty much since I graduated college, which was back in ninety eight. And I learned about Bitcoin back in 2011 when I was reading tech news site that said Bitcoin has reached parity with the dollar and I couldn’t even pass that sentence. I was like, what does that mean? How do you get parity with the dollar? And then I found out that it was a digital currency and so on. And yeah, I’ve been doing stuff in the Bitcoin space, contributing to open source projects, writing various books, speaking at conferences, teaching people I’m also a Bitcoin fellow at a venture capital firm and things like that. So. Yeah, it’s been quite a journey, and I’m excited about this podcast because it is sort of talking about two things that got integrated into my life and it’s something that only God can do.

Luke Roush: Jimmy, some of our listeners don’t have a ton of exposure to Bitcoin, maybe they haven’t actually spent the time that you have to really understand the currency and kind of how it works. But pretend we know nothing about Bitcoin, would you mind just kind of walking us through kind of a crash course for dummies, myself included, on how Bitcoin functions and what our listeners might want to know or pay attention to as we’re watching this universe unfold before our eyes?

Jimmy Song: Sure. The easiest way I can describe Bitcoin is as digital gold, and it’s digital, I think, which most people understand. But it’s also like gold in the sense that it requires no permission to go and gather it. So gold has always been like that. If you own some land, you can go dig in your backyard or whatever to go search for gold. That is everyone’s right to do. You don’t need permission from anybody. So in that way, Bitcoin is what we call decentralized. There’s no central authority that determines whether or not you are allowed to create that or find that particular commodity. This is unlike the US dollar, for example, which is centrally controlled. If I tried to produce a one hundred dollar bill and managed to make it look very realistic, I would get arrested by the Secret Service because the production of US dollars is controlled by, well, at least the physical notes by the Treasury, but really most of it by the Federal Reserve. So a lot of things are centralized, including concert tickets, coupons for online stores or whatever. What’s unique about Bitcoin is that it’s digital and decentralized and this usually blows people’s minds. And honestly, most of us in the computer science field didn’t think that that was actually possible until Satoshi Nakamoto showed that it could in 2008. And that was a big breakthrough in Bitcoin was the fact that it was both decentralized and digital. That is, it had no central authority, but it was also digital. When most people think of digital things, they think like MP3 files or Web pages or e-books or something like that, something that can essentially be infinitely copied with perfect fidelity. But with Bitcoin, you have something that’s decentralized, not infinitely copyable because there’s a ledger and this is what’s called the block chain. And that block chain holds essentially every transaction that’s ever been done on Bitcoin. It’s not very different than, say, the ledger at your bank, which for them has the record of every single transaction that’s ever been done by their customers of that bank, except that block chain is completely distributed. Everyone that runs the software can check exactly that. The ledger balances, for example, that no one’s overspending that noone’s overdrafting, that the rules of the ledger are being kept up and not violated and so on. And that’s essentially what it is. We also call it digital gold because of this process called mining with gold. I’m told that you need to scour something like 40 tons of dirt and rock before you find about one ounce of gold. So there’s a lot of dirt and rock that you have to process. You use chemicals on before you find that one ounce of gold. Bitcoin also has that same process for bringing new Bitcoin into existence, except instead of dirt and rock, what you have lots and lots of numbers. So you process as many numbers as possible and you’ll find that sort of one ounce of gold, if you will. And much like gold, that process of finding that gold is much more difficult than verifying that ounce of gold is genuine. The chemical test is much cheaper than actually digging up an ounce of gold in the ground. Similarly with Bitcoin, the process of finding a number that satisfies a particular property is very, very difficult. You just have to brute force lots and lots of numbers, the equivalent of 40 tons of dirt and rock. But when you find it, it is very easy to verify. In fact, your cell phone can go verify that it’s been done, whereas the actual process of finding it requires many, many thousands of thousands of machines.

Luke Roush: Yeah, that’s fascinating. And a whole bunch of other questions you go off in terms of who the miners are, where they live, how they mined. But now I want to go over actually to an argument that you make in your book that it could be really interesting to our listeners, maybe resonant given the environment that we’re currently living in. It’s around the moral argument for Bitcoin versus currencies that can be printed more readily. Could you just kind of articulate that view on the merits of Bitcoin relative to fiat currency?

Jimmy Song: Sure. The thing about the current monetary system, which is central bank backed fiat money, it is extremely corrupt for the lack of a better word. There’s a lot of theft in it. There is what we would call huge moral hazard within the fiat money system. And this is because there exists a money printer. Unfortunately, not that many people know how money works. I’ll just briefly describe it. When the government has a budget of 4 trillion and their tax revenue is three trillion, you have a one trillion dollar deficit. So where do they get that money in the past before central bank back fiat money? What? The government had to do was to go borrow that money from people that actually had it. So King John, for instance, wanted to borrow a ton of money to fund the war that he wanted to do as a part of England. The merchants that lent to him charge them two hundred fourteen percent interest because they were pretty sure that they wouldn’t get the money back. So at least after six months, they’d get some of it back and interest and then go from there. So that’s how money used to be nowadays. That one trillion dollar gap, it sold US Treasuries. There are other central banks that buy it. There are people in the public that buy it. They’re hedge funds and various pension funds that will buy it. But there’s usually some left over. So say they sell five hundred billion to various parties, but they have five hundred billion left. What happens? Well, the central bank is called the lender of last resort. For that reason, they will buy up the other five hundred billion dollars through money that they created then. Er so it’s essentially monetary expansion through debt insurance and that’s how the monetary system currently works. And it’s not just at the government level, it’s also at the corporate level and it’s also at the consumer level. So if you think about corporate bonds and whatever bond buyers know, you can get tremendous leverage. You can actually just get the spread. There’s questions about, OK, who’s buying these like one and a half percent bonds. Right. Like that pay like nothing. Well, it’s because you can go get loans for one hundred percent of that amount. It just becomes sort of like a money generating machine. And even if you’re getting paid like 20 basis points, if you’re getting loans at five basis points to 15 basis point spread is all profit and you can leverage the heck out of it. So you borrow a billion and you get 15 basis points on a billion dollars. That’s still a significant amount of money. So that’s how the current system works. It’s based on that. It’s based on money printing. It’s based on monetary expansion that can be sort of like game by the people that are in control. And that means that there is a huge moral hazard or the people that are printing the money because they can use it to benefit themselves and their friends and their family at the expense of everybody else. Every time you expand the money supply, you are essentially stealing from everyone that has saved in that currency. So if you have money saved in the dollar and the dollar expands and supply, then your dollar has a little less purchasing power. And you could kind of see that in the asset inflation bubble that we’re in with stocks and even bonds and real estate and maybe even gold to some degree. But every time the money expands, you are stealing from everybody else that’s holding the dollar. And this isn’t just people in the United States. A lot of those people are in third world countries. They use the dollar as their store of value because their own currency is even worse than the dollar. So in essence, every time money is being expanded through debt creation, we are essentially stealing from everybody else that has money stored in that fiat currency. So from a biblical perspective, it is immoral and it is doing something that God detests.

Henry Kaestner: Hold on saying this is the almighty dollar. If this is the greenback, you’re saying that there’s something just wrong with the system and then maybe you’d even suggest that because we are all transacting in dollars that we may even, by extension, be morally complicit in this.

Jimmy Song: Yeah, yeah. I mean, every time we take out a mortgage, for example, I mean, think about this. You take out a mortgage for, say, a quarter million dollars, two hundred fifty thousand dollars, and you get three percent, 30 years or something like that when most people think with that mortgage is OK, some that is on the other side of that trade that’s lending out two hundred fifty thousand dollars for three percent for 30 years. And that’s simply not true. If you were an investor, you would never take back 30 years, three percent with some credit risk. And so, like, nobody would do that. The only reason that happens is because they print that money into existence. And that mortgage in turn is actually insured by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So really, there’s no risk for the bank at all. And the government’s the one that takes the risk and they print the money for your benefit. So we’re all complicit in this. And I’m speaking as a person that has a mortgage, so I’m complicit in this as well, and that we are expanding the money supply. Clearly, the borrower is benefiting because they’re getting access to a lot of money at once. The bank is benefiting. They’re getting paid interest. So who’s it actually hurting? Well, it’s hurting everyone else that’s holding the dollar, including people in Nigeria that are holding dollars because the Niros inflating very quickly. So how do you even for them, I mean, we’re stealing from everybody through this monetary expansion. And the US is the most guilty of all because we got first access to that dollar, whereas people in Nigeria, for example, get last access as a result of what’s called the Cantillon effect. They get screwed more than everybody else being convicted.

Luke Roush: And my guess is that many of our listeners are also being convicted based on that last 60 second report, which is good. I think it goes over a lot of people’s heads and just kind of passed us. But we don’t. Realize that we’re living in it, so I appreciate you shedding light on that, one of the things that Indonesia, where I used to live is known for is having the most expensive coffee in the world, which is Kopi Luwak coffee and I won’t go into all the details of it. But my understanding is that you may be an expert on some of the most expensive beef jerky in the world. And switching gears, I got to ask the man we need to hear the beef jerky story, most expensive beef jerky ever produced in the world. Jimmy Fallon on the show today.

Jimmy Song: Yeah. So 2013, there were a lot of different companies that were allowing came in and bitcoin. And this is sort of the mistake that I made. I want to support this company that’s now taking Bitcoin. And it was online and I decided to order some beef jerky from that company. At the time, Bitcoin was about four hundred dollars. So I bought one hundred dollars worth of beef jerky and I was like, OK, it’s a quarter bitcoin. It’s not that much. I’ll buy it. They shipped it to me. It was delicious. I don’t think it was like twelve thousand dollars delicious though because currently Bitcoin is up forty eight thousand. And this is kind of what happens with a lot of store of value assets is that I’ve known people that worked at Dell or something early on and they had stock options. They decided to sell them for a couch and it turns out that the stock kept going up or whatever, and that couch is now ten thousand dollars or something instead of eight hundred or something like that. So you know this. I regret spending Bitcoin on that beef jerky. Yeah, there was also a sewing machine I got from my wife, which costs like a tenth of a bitcoin that’s now like five thousand bucks. So, yeah, some regrets.

Henry Kaestner: So when you’re referring to store value, you’re referring to beef jerky as a store value. So tell us you’ve written a book on this. Tell us about the book.

Jimmy Song: Thank God for Bitcoin. Yeah, it’s all about the moral case for money. And it comes from a Christian perspective. I got to write this during covid as a result of Bible study that we started doing on Zoom. So basically I had gone to this conference that Russell Cohen put together. He’s the left tackle for the Carolina Panthers and he also wrote the foreword for our book. And his brother in law, George was one of my coauthors, is a Christian, and we started talking about it and we decided, OK, you know what, let’s do a Bible study of just some verses in the Bible that talk about money and oh, my goodness, there are so many verses in the Bible that talk about money. So we started doing that. And as we finished, he expressed some interest in learning more about the economic aspect of it. And I come from the Austrian school and I’ve read a lot of stuff on it. And we decided to open it up to some more people. And we had about ten different Bitcoin ers that have known through conferences and so on that I knew were Christian. And we got together. We studied two books, The Ethics of Money Production by Guido Huelsmann and Honest Money by Garry North. And both of them treat the monetary system from an ethical perspective. And we ended up doing studies of both books. And at the end we were dissatisfied because both of them ended with, hey, we need to go back on the gold standard and we need to get a political action committee together and convince enough people so that the dollar can go back to being backed by gold. And, you know, I mean, we’re reading this and thinking, OK, this is completely unrealistic and this is never going to happen. But we have this thing called Bitcoin where each individual can opt out. We need to write a book to lay that out. And that’s how the book started. We wanted to make the moral case for Bitcoin and we wanted to do it from a Christian perspective. So there’s a lot of verses in there. We definitely take the Christian world view in this book, and the hope is to give that moral perspective, because for a lot of Christians, I think what they think of when they think of Bitcoin is OK. It’s like the money used by drug dealers and traders that just gambled their money or something like that. And for us, it’s very much not. It’s a more moral money. And that’s the argument that we wanted to make in the book, and that’s what it covers.

Henry Kaestner: So it’s very interesting. I want to get more into the rifts that you’ve had with friends in Bible studies about faith as it comes through. And I just you got one of the most entertaining Twitter feeds of all time. And the other day you talk about Esau and Jacob and their take on Bitcoin. Selling Bitcoin: Esau’s soup, buying Bitcoin: jacob Father’s estate. Please explain.

Jimmy Song: Yeah. So Esau had what we would call in Bitcoin high time preference. Right. Like, he was very impatient, didn’t have much prudence. Jacob had low time preference. He was willing to wait. He was patient. He was prudent. He was wise. And that’s what I wanted to point out about Bitcoin is there’s an ethic of being willing to wait because Bitcoin is very volatile. It does sort of like turn your stomach. There’s a lot of emotional disturbance in the price going up and down that you kind of have to go through that a lot of people simply can’t take. So for a lot of people, they would rather live for tomorrow and be more like Esau. Who? Cares about my estate, that’s like 30 years from now. I’d rather have the suit now rather than being like Jacob, OK, I’ll forgo the suit now, but that means that I get this huge treasure later on. And to me, that’s at the heart of what both Bitcoin is about and what Christianity is about. Our God promises us treasures in heaven for doing the things that aren’t necessarily rewarded in this life. And that’s for me, what the ultimate in low time preference behavior looks like.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to do a slight pivot here because I’m thinking through this. I’m going beyond the moral implications of the monetary supply and I’m going to be thinking about that for a long time. I know our listeners are, too, but one of the things that has stuck with me is when you talked about the Nigerians being the last people kind of in the stream, so to speak, what is Bitcoin mean? And maybe I’m reading too much into your comment or just this general thought, but what is Bitcoin mean for people in places like Zimbabwe where they’ve got to take wheelbarrows of cash just to buy food? You know, is their role here for Bitcoin and poverty alleviation? Can that happen or or do those governments shut it down? Because that’s their last stranglehold on the people. Just riff about what that means a little bit in developing economies.

Jimmy Song: Yeah, and it’s been a tremendous in developing economies. In fact, one of my coauthors is Jordan Bush, and he actually inspired that Esau tweet. He is a missionary in Uruguay and his congregation is actually largely Venezuelan and they love Bitcoin. They think it’s something that is very important to them and in part because they can actually send money back home. A lot of these regimes, when they get in power, what they do is they impose strict capital controls and so on to make it very difficult to do anything monetary because they are spending their own money in hyperinflation. That the previous book that I wrote is the little Bitcoin book. And one of my coauthors there is Alex Gladstein, who’s the chief strategy officer for the Human Rights Foundation, and he’s really interested in Bitcoin, in large part because a lot of human rights activists in these countries, the first thing that happens to them, once the government finds out that they’re doing something against the government’s interests, is they get their bank accounts seized, they get financial, they get their financial access sort of cut off. And Bitcoin for them is a life saver. So there’s that aspect to it. But there’s also that other aspect that you are talking about, which is, you know, being able to store value. So one anecdote that I like to share is that one hundred dollar bill, a crisp one in a lot of third world countries, will trade at a premium to a wrinkled one. And you might be wondering, why would that be? Why is the crisp one trading at a premium to a wrinkled one? Well, the crisp one is more valuable because they’re given as gifts at weddings and so on. So when you’re presenting a gift to the bride and groom or something like that, you want a nice crisp bill. So the wrinkled one trades at a discount because these people are using these as stores of value. This is you’re starting off your new life. Here’s some money and that’s how they store it. So for a lot of those people in Third World countries, the US dollar and so on is a lifeline to being able to store their wealth. And if we’re thinking about like what’s happened to the US dollar in the last year, then two money supply, for example, has expanded by thirty five percent or something crazy. For a lot of people in Third World countries, it’s even worse. So they have their own currencies, which through legal tender laws and monetary injustice of all kinds, they’re forced to use. But it’s inflating at such a high rate that they need something else. They want to store value in something else. And if you go to like the black market in Venezuela, for example, you know, no one takes bolivars or if they do, they have a quick way of getting rid of it because no one wants to hold on to them, because an hour from now, it’s going to be worth less than what it is right now. So that whole process is very detrimental to their living and it makes all sorts of economic calculation crazy. It generally devalues labor and so on. So Bitcoin definitely has a role. The country where Bitcoin is most popular besides the United States is Nigeria right now. And it’s because the Naira is expanding fairly quickly. They have a pretty technical population. One of my coauthors from the previous book runs an exchange there, and he’s trying to comply with the central bank of Nigeria’s mandates and so on. But yeah, it’s a life saver for a lot of them because they can actually store value instead of having it just sort of like frittered away. And a lot of the injustice that we see in the world is actually monetary injustice. And honestly, a lot of that is because of the dollar hegemony that is over the entire world. And this is something that I think as Americans, much more so than, quote on quote, social justice or whatever that we have to think about as a nation. There’s a monetary imperialism that is over the entire globe. The US can more or less unilaterally enforce sanctions on Iran because of the dollar, all international transactions. These are settled in the dollar and so on, so. You know, that level of control, that level of ability to affect people in Third World countries, this is something that we need to really face up to as a nation because we’ve been abusing it for the last 70 years or so since Bretton Woods.

Luke Roush: So the concept of monetary imperialism is a powerful word, picture that I’ve never thought through that before. But this is really, I think, brought that to light for me and will be impactful for others, too. I’ve got one more question and then a closing question. But one more question is, we all have friends who have waded into Bitcoin more recently trying to make a quick buck. What counsel would you give the folks who are seeing this more sort of short term trading opportunity rather than a long term?

Jimmy Song: Yeah, I know a lot of people that have been like that, and those people have existed since 2010. So there were people that got into Bitcoin at a dollar and sold at eight dollars and said, you know what, I made eight times my money. I am out. And they have never come back since. So my counsel to those people would be understand what Bitcoin is. It could be a trade thing, a plaything, a gambling thing. In which case, I think as a Christian, you should really look into whether or not that is something that is corrupting your soul or not otherwise. Once you’ve learned what that really is, whether it is this incorruptible unsensible store of value that we argue in the book, then you’ll understand like just how much it means to have that store of value available so that we can build a better civilization instead of one that’s leaking all over the place with the current fiat monetary system that we’re in. So for those people, learn what it is before you keep going with this sort of like speculation. A lot of people do come in for no go up, as we say, in our space. But a lot of people end up staying because they learn what it is and read books like mine or say things the Bitcoin standard or many others and learn, OK, all right. This really is a better money. And it is in many ways incorruptible by human beings because it’s run by computer code. And as a result, they become convinced, OK, this really is superior to the current monetary system. And I want to opt out of the current monetary system into this thing. And that’s what brings a lot of people in. So, you know, learning about that is not easy. I’ve seen people take many years before they got into it or understood it or realized this implications. And like we’ve been talking about, the implications are enormous and they are global. And it is no small thing to be changing out money. It seems to be one of the base layers of civilization. If you change that out, you affect absolutely everything above it, including governments, including trade, including companies, including our lifestyles, including our how we view debt and things like that. And all of those things will need to be changed as we transition more to a Bitcoin standard. In my opinion, that’s inevitable because fiat currencies are just sort of temporary by nature. I think a study of all fiat currencies that have ever existed, like the average life span, is like twenty three years. The US dollar is about 50 years old in fiat terms. And so it’s fairly old, but we’ll see where it goes. But that’s what I would implore your listeners to go and understand.

Luke Roush: Most impactful episode for me and I think for all of us. But let’s just close out with the way we always close out. So I’d love to hear, Jimmy, how God is speaking to you and teaching you. Now, what have you found in his words that has stuck out to you recently?

Jimmy Song: Yeah. So the verse that I’ll go to is in the book as well, but it’s Ephesians 4:28. He who steals my steal no longer, but rather he must labor performing with his own hands. What is good so that he will have something to share with one who has need. And I love that verse first of all, because it says don’t steal. And I think at least in the fiat economy, I think we’re all guilty of that, whether we know it or not. And stopping from that and working with our own hands, creating something that is good. So he will have something to share with one who has need. That to me sometimes is interpreted as go and make money so you can give alms to the poor. For me it means go make something with your hands so that you can contribute something to civilization, to someone else in the market that can get value from whatever it is that you create. And the verse is really about money and the role of money, which from a spiritual sense is a signal to you, to each individual to know how it is that you can provide most value to other people. And when the money is not corrupt, it’s the purest sort of signal for what we should be doing because it tells other people, I find what you’re doing, your goods or services more valuable than the money that I am willing to give it up for. So for me, that’s what it is. The other thing I’ll share is that this book for me is sort of like, as I mentioned before, the merging of two huge passions in my life, Christianity and Bitcoin. And I was at a conference last year, a big block boom. It was Bitcoin conference and it was in Dallas. And I gave a talk and somebody asked a question and I revealed that I was a Christian at that conference. And I also told the audience at the end, hey, I’m writing a book about this, if you’re interested, please. Talk to me afterwards, no less than 30 people throughout the next two days came up to me and told me that they are Christian, that they are Bitcoin. They were afraid of saying something. And for me, that was a huge validation of what God was doing, because it was clear that there are a lot of Christians that don’t want to be known as Christians. And a thing for me when I think about that is, wow, how sad is that? Because according to the Bible, these are Jesus’s words. He says, if you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you before my father. And my hope for your listeners is that they learn to be bold with their faith. And, you know, we tend to think, OK, God doesn’t want me to be ashamed of him, but then I’m going to get embarrassed. That’s not the way it is, at least for me. My experience has been that God has blessed me, that he wants me to be bold so that he can bless me and what I am doing. And this book has come out as a result of that. We’ve got a lot of reviewers from that conference that were able to chime in on Bitcoin and Christianity and give us some really good feedback that we incorporated. But for all your listeners that are thinking about investing better in these industries where, you know, it might not be cool to talk about Jesus, take a chance people about it, because God wants to bless you.

Henry Kaestner: Amen. Wow, that was really, really awesome. I love what you’re talking about in terms of being able to deliver value. We should be about being used by God under his power for his glory to bring about his kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven. And we need to be creative and adding value to the marketplace, creating goods and services to bring about his kingdom and to love our neighbor, and in that process, superimportant. So that’s a great word to leave us on. And then the admonition, of course, to be always ready, willing and able to be able to boldly and yet with gentleness and respect to share the reason for the hope we have. So great word for me, a great word for Luke, Justin and the entire FDE team and our listeners. Jimmy, we’re really grateful for you. Thank you very much.

Jimmy Song: Thank you for having me.